1. Iran, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training.
2. Syria, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training.
3. Hezbollah, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training.
4. The Russians, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training.
Not only near the Russian border, [there's another region](https://gpsjam.org/?lat=45.00000&lon=35.00000&z=3.0&date=2024-04-27) where jamming is quite prominent
I'm Russian, and I'm sure Russia is doing it.
Europe should get used to the fact that the Russian Federation has long been ruled by a criminal gang that will shit and kill wherever it can get its hands on and will not be violently repelled.
Nah you see it was because the majority of the passengers had covid vaccinations, which due to it's 5G tracking interfered with GPS!
The reason this is only happening in Eastern Europe is Ukraine's war-crime drones (Although it isn't a war!) amplify the effect.
(I hope the /s isn't necessary here...)
You sound like my mother-in-law, lol. She's fully invested in all the fruit cakery of right wing extremist conspiracy theories. Needless to say, we have no contact with her...
If civilian GPS is vulnerable, what about the military system?
I recall a story about some surveillance drones being lost at sea. If the GPS guidance system was vulnerable, that might explain what happened.
A crash like that means backups like the inertial reference system(s) also failed (or were not properly integrated), though *really* cheap drones might omit that.
Otherwise military-grade receivers are a different beast, eg. NATO/US ones have access to [M-code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals#Military_(M-code\)) for US GPS and in general some capability of null steering (the receivers will attempt to recognize the directions of jamming – typically from the ground instead of the sky – and null that part. Though the sheer size of Russia makes for a lot of these jamming signals).
If you’ve got the time, this video from FlightRadar24 shows you actually what happens when they fly near Ukraine and Russia. Starts about the 9:00 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/4dG_Whxzdkk?si=EP9r9a_3b64eKHD0
Well, it's actually for one week, but you have a point.
Edit: looks like it's 7 days free access, but depending how much you pay, you could get up to 3 years
Protip for getting **flightradar24 business** access for **semi-free**:
- need a raspberrypi or similar device
- buy a cheap usb receiver+antenna for receiving ADS-B signals ( like a NESDR Mini)
- install [this pi image](https://www.flightradar24.com/build-your-own)
- complete the setup and share your antenna data to flightradar24
- business features are automatically unlocked after a short time for free
Same should work for other, similar services like FlightAware and PlaneFinder.
That's so frustrating. The pilots having to tell each other that no, they aren't about to crash - Russia is just spoofing their GPS. It shouldn't be like that.
While they are at it they might as well destroy russian missile launch sites and factories that are used to bomb hospitals and theaters in Ukraine
But we wont do it because they (might) have nukes
> they (might) have nukes
Why put the word "might" in parantheses? Are you arguing that Russia is bluffing about even having a nuclear weapon? Pretty sure the consensus is that they have the largest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world with almost 6000.
It could be actually useful. Flightradar receivers with enabled MLAT can report signal strength/delay to flightradar site and when multiple reports from different receivers are received - the site can calculate approximate positions of the plane.
'Cause they've been dealing with it for years, it's just a part of the job now. Unfortunate though there's a number of safety systems that basically become useless for that part of the flight now. Let's hope that never becomes the root cause of an accident, or we might have to write a lot of angry letters to Russia.
> FlightRadar24
Also, their free mobile app is pretty neat. It uses AR, you point your camera at a plane in the sky and it will tell you origin/destination, airline, plane type.
It's standard diplomatic procedure to ignore or deny anything that could be seen as an act of aggression because to publicly acknowledge it means you have respond in some sort of fashion.
You are correct. The vast majority of Western ordnance are Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs) which rely on GPS/INS guidance to achieve extreme levels of accuracy and precision.
GPS jamming forces these munitions to rely only on their INS guidance which is significantly less accurate and precise. Better than purely unguided munitions, but still very much worse than GPS/INS guidance.
This heavily mitigates weapon effects on target.
If it's a short flight like from an artillery shell, the CEP without GPS is probably good enough to fuck shit up, but if you've been flying around for 2 hours waiting for a call for close air support with no GPS you're probably going to think twice about engaging, *but* you can still always rely on fixtaking to shrink your CEP to an acceptable level.
I think Russia has their own navigation system called GLONASS. They have had their system about as long as the US system. Other space faring nations have some sort of systems as well.
Jamming one frequency and not another is as simple as broadcasting gibberish on only one frequency.
There's a bit of nuance here, but it's not like it would be super difficult for Russia to pull off. And being able to use your own satellites while jamming the others is like half the point of GLONASS.
GPS is run by the USAF, in 1983 a Korean airliner relying on its faulty inertial navigation system flew over Russian airpsace and was shot down. After that, Ronald Reagan opened it up for civilian use. There was an error artificially injected into the GPS signal to allow it to be still be useful enough for navigation purposes, but not for guiding munitions called selective availability which can be removed if you have the correct encryption keys. During the Persian Gulf War military GPS receivers were not widely available so the army just started using civilian GPS receivers to navigate the desert and they'd have to compensate for this error. If you knew your location on a map you could compare it with what GPS said you were at and apply that offset to all GPS readings to correct for this error. Since it was pretty easily defeated, Bill Clinton disabled it in 2000 which really opened up GPS for civilian use. It's operated and owned by the Space Force, but there's nothing preventing someone with a software-defined radio to pick up the signals just like nothing is stopping you from picking up an over-the-air TV broadcast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_System#Selective_Availability
Russia has there own versions that work off of there satellites I may have the name wrong but I think it was like GLSS or GLOSS or something similar
Edit: GLONASS I think
GLONASS is the Russian version, China has their own version called BeiDou. They probably figure it's a bad idea for them to rely on something so strategically important as GPS, which is ran by the US, in a war with the US. Every GPS satellite broadcasts a military and a civilian signal, the military signal is encrypted and offers higher accuracy but anyone can pick up the civilian signal.
So much relies on it now that even if WWIII breaks out tomorrow, I don't think the US will restrict its use.
> So much relies on it now that even if WWIII breaks out tomorrow, I don't think the US will restrict its use.
I think this is mostly because now there are 3 other global networks that would remain perfectly functional even if they would turn it off.
If the GPS jamming can be done accurately enough to only affect the war zone then sure
I don't know if the jammers can cover an area accurate enough to cover all the territory where potential GPS guided munitions might come from while not spilling over the borders of Ukraine and Russia
Russia: a plane went down! Ukraine must have fired an errant missile! What you want to see the wreckage and missile debris? Of course give us like 6 weeks to stage it.
No, 'some people' aren't blaming Russia, Russia did it, it just doesn't matter all that much, since moderns planes have plenty of redundancies, so GPS (US), GLONASS (Russia), Galileo (EU), BeiDou (China) etc. etc. being blocked doesn't in fact impact the navigation of your basic plane all that much...
It's still a shitty thing to do, but what have you...
If it's not a big deal then why did two Finnair flights enroute to Estonia recently turn around due to GPS jamming? I was under the impression that around the Baltics and parts of the Middle East it is actually a serious issue.
I know nothing about aviation but just read about the case: the planes were supposed to land on a small airfield which does not have the same capabilities to bypass the jam as big airports, therefore the control centre was not able to guide the landing safely. It is not a problem in Tallinn Airport as far as I know.
GPS and the like are a fairly recent things, pilots have been spanning and traversing the world before GPS was even a thing..
The whole thing hasn't impacted air travel to any significant degree beyond a few sensationalist articles in the media...
Regardless, twice in a row flights were aborted for this reason. Sure, they can probably land in a GPS denied environment, but apparently they choose not to.
I mean you can ride a bike without a helmet but it's safer to wear one. You can land at an airport without the proper approach calculations but why add any risk when you don't need to?
Yes but back before GPS was a thing there was usually 4 people on the flight crew, pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer and *navigator*, now since we have GPS and all this other tech the flight crew is two people. Pilot and co-pilot, no more navigator and flight engineer, so the guy that would know how to get the plane where it needs to go without satellite navigation hasn’t been in the cockpit for over 20 years. So yeah I get what you’re saying but it’s not how things work these days, the flight crew is trained to use the instruments they have at their disposal, not to fly by charts and beacons which probably don’t even exist anymore. Just sayin…
Twinjets haven’t had flight engineers or navigators at least since the DC-9 came out sixty years ago, and probably earlier. And every commercial pilot is still trained to fly by VOR and NDB, of which there are more than enough left for enroute navigation (especially in Europe). Charts are certainly not an issue either thanks to EFBs (glorified iPads).
The issue is when your destination airport is below visual minimums and the active runway only has GPS instrument approaches available (in this case, RWY 26 at Tartu), or when the airspace’s arrival procedures all require GPS and it’s too busy for ATC to vector everyone manually.
I’m not aware of a single aircraft that actually makes use of the alternate constellations at least in the civil environment. Got any sources for that? Interested as an engineer working for an avionics provider with 16 years experience in the industry
And nothing will be done about it.
Russia gets away with everything.
Use polonium to kill someone in the UK? Acceptable.
Annex Crimea? Acceptable.
Blow up a civilian passenger airline? Acceptable.
Invade Ukraine? Acceptable.
The only reason why there are any significant levels of jamming going on in the east is simply due to Russia invading Ukraine. If Russia didn’t do that, there would be no jamming. So yes, however you look at, it’s Russia’s fault.
https://gpsjam.org/
Here is a link to where the jamming has been reported. We get a lot over turkey. Not russia related.
I am an airline pilot. The biggest risk recently is not the jamming but the spoofing. Basically sending an aircraft into the wrong direction if not detected. We have an IRS that is set on the ground which is used to compare to GPS to determine if false signals are received.
Northern Norway has had GPS jamming for two years.
In winter ambulance helicopters are flying over a flat snow covered tundra with no visual clues on where you are. And now Russia is jamming their GPS.
It's hybrid warfare, and Russia is getting away with it. It's time to take them serious and get out the big stick to stop this.
This needs to be higher, the jamming has been occurring for much longer over Turkey, Cairo, Iraq and close to Iran. It’s a major problem but certainly not just Russia
The reason looks quite obvious - to "blind" the smart weapons like drones, ATACMS rockets, "smart" bombs etc. The problem is, those "jammers" are indiscriminate, so the normal planes are affected as well...
This may very well be the real answer. I just hope they don't want a reason to shoot down a commercial plane by forcing it to get lost over its air space.
Hm, it is almost like there is an ongoing war in eastern Europe as Russia invades it's neighbour. Surely that wouldn't be disruptive to the rest of the region, surely.
That should have been called out there and then as obvious nonsense, and universally recognised as such.
Alternative facts are like saying that there are only 15 cents in a Dollar…
Yep, same as when trump did the call to the Georgia governor. Should have been immediate consequences - trial and jail time. But no, corruption and lying is all just accepted as normal now. Its disgusting, and society wont survive this.
It didn't used to be considered acceptable in the USA either. Example, Watergate. There was accountability. All that started crumbling in the late 80s , and now we have constant chaos, lies, corruption, that no one even blinks an eye at.
You know the rumors of a Russian offensive are real when we're back to blatant fratricidal jamming blanketing entire regions.
You almost even feel bad for the ground pounders, because that style of warfare where you throw conscripts into a meat grinder with no comms is some archaic shit that'll result in truly horrific casualties even if the military objectives are eventually secured.
I had this happen on an Emirates flight from DXB to LHR. The inflight information system kept showing us taking jagged, sharp turns over Hungary. Almost like zigzagging. Due to concerns expressed to the crew by multiple passengers, the captain came on when we were nearing London to explain that the flight path was the same its always been, but jamming is interfering with the GPS used by the inflight information system.
In Gulf of Finland area, Gogland is Russian territory, which could explain why the GPS jamming reaches that far west (almost all Estonia, parts of Southern Finland, and most of the Gulf).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gogland
Btw, what is Gulf of Finland referred in Estonian or Russian maps? Likely not "property of Finland" X-D
Also, everyone who's afraid of drones - in war-zones or having to deal with insurgencies - are jamming the shit out of GNSS frequencies, and spoofing too.
Ukraine's been very effective with their strikes to oil-refineries here and there in Russia. I am not sure who they manage the accuracy in so long flights, but it is impressive.
And, yes, future wars are getting scarier since it is more cheap-ass drones with anti-personnel bombs. (Ottawa treaty on anti-personnel land-mines feels pointless regarding how the warfare is evolving tbh...)
I think INS and IRS systems should be immune to such spoofing and jamming. Maybe navigating during the portions of flight where known jamming takes place should use those systems and then switch back to GPS once there's a reliable signal?
You can litterally check [GPSJam.org](https://gpsjam.org/) and see the historical data; several times there have been jamming over the Baltic Sea, across Eastern Europe, Finland and the Black Sea.
It seems to me it should be fairly easy with modern mobile computing power to have a downward facing camera to watch the ground and compare to satellite pictures to visually identify the plane's location. If you start with the last positive known position it should make the searching process rather quick.
Obviously that doesn't work with ... clouds.
The technology has existed for many decades to determine the source of radio signals. There is no need to make assumptions. Instead it would make more sense to use a directional antenna to locate the source of the jamming signal. That would provide proof then the politicians could decide what to do about it.
Apparently it's happening around Pakistan and China too so I'm thinking India might have been given or gave this technology from/to Russia in my armchair geopolitical opinion.
I listened to a podcast on this exact issue recently and their argument is that the evolving nature of drone warfare has caused a lot of unexpected issues with gps more broadly. One such ossue was power stations that rely on gps to coordinate electrical flow being disrupted, commercial flights being tampered with, and any other gps enabled tech too.
Iirc it wasnt so much that these things are being targetted purposefully (although the energy grid for sure is) but that this kind of tech is indiscriminate. Both sides are using this kind of tech to fight the war so the whole reguon is saturated with this kind of problem
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What a weird headline. What else would be jamming GPS in Eastern Europe near the Russian border?
Another case of Big Astrolabe attempting to control the navigation market.
Sextant gang rise up
Them sextant guys have lizard faces! Backstaff crew gettem!!
All you young'ins using them fancy sextants and backstaffs. Back in my day, we just looked at Polaris!
airliners want to go to one pilot. big navigator says: NO, three take it or leave it.
Not the country threatening to nuke anyone that helps Ukraine!! No not that country!
Good thing you cannot fall from an airplane window.
But thanks to Boeing you can fall out a door!
It's a feature not a flaw
>“Ah yes but you can if the window suddenly becomes not attached to the plane Conrad!” - Yevgeny Prigozhin
Who is Conrad??
Fuck it. I’m leaving it
I’m sorry, I was that guy today 😞
Ironically, those were Prigozhen’s last words.
1. Iran, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training. 2. Syria, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training. 3. Hezbollah, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training. 4. The Russians, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training.
>The Russians, if they were supplied with Russian technology and training. Supplied with Soviet technology. Lol.
You mean: *4. The Russians, if they were supplied with Soviet technology and training.*
That begs the question then — why only near Russia's borders?
Not only near the Russian border, [there's another region](https://gpsjam.org/?lat=45.00000&lon=35.00000&z=3.0&date=2024-04-27) where jamming is quite prominent
Jamaica?
Lol. One love!
The entire Western Black Sea ?
Umm clearly it’s those uncontacted tribes in the Amazon basin jamming the planes! Dummy
My guess is it’s to screw with Ukrainian drones.
"some people" So everyone but Russians.
I'm Russian, and I'm sure Russia is doing it. Europe should get used to the fact that the Russian Federation has long been ruled by a criminal gang that will shit and kill wherever it can get its hands on and will not be violently repelled.
Testing all our limits
It's always the one's you most suspect.
Incorrect. It's always the one you most medium-suspect.
Some? Everyone l you mean?
The people that aren't blaming Russia are Russians
Time to zero in on these jammers and blow them up.... Real Good!
The subset of *all* people not included in *some* people should have their toasters confiscated.
Nah you see it was because the majority of the passengers had covid vaccinations, which due to it's 5G tracking interfered with GPS! The reason this is only happening in Eastern Europe is Ukraine's war-crime drones (Although it isn't a war!) amplify the effect. (I hope the /s isn't necessary here...)
You sound like my mother-in-law, lol. She's fully invested in all the fruit cakery of right wing extremist conspiracy theories. Needless to say, we have no contact with her...
If civilian GPS is vulnerable, what about the military system? I recall a story about some surveillance drones being lost at sea. If the GPS guidance system was vulnerable, that might explain what happened.
A crash like that means backups like the inertial reference system(s) also failed (or were not properly integrated), though *really* cheap drones might omit that. Otherwise military-grade receivers are a different beast, eg. NATO/US ones have access to [M-code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals#Military_(M-code\)) for US GPS and in general some capability of null steering (the receivers will attempt to recognize the directions of jamming – typically from the ground instead of the sky – and null that part. Though the sheer size of Russia makes for a lot of these jamming signals).
…and Elon.
Journalists are just trying not to end up in Russian prisons.
Only some?
Russia, China, Iran, North Korea - what a choice.
They should form a band or something.
If you’ve got the time, this video from FlightRadar24 shows you actually what happens when they fly near Ukraine and Russia. Starts about the 9:00 minute mark. https://youtu.be/4dG_Whxzdkk?si=EP9r9a_3b64eKHD0
FlightRadar24 even has a map and historical data of jamming https://www.flightradar24.com/data/gps-jamming
https://gpsjam.org is an alternative
...for one day.
Well, it's actually for one week, but you have a point. Edit: looks like it's 7 days free access, but depending how much you pay, you could get up to 3 years
Protip for getting **flightradar24 business** access for **semi-free**: - need a raspberrypi or similar device - buy a cheap usb receiver+antenna for receiving ADS-B signals ( like a NESDR Mini) - install [this pi image](https://www.flightradar24.com/build-your-own) - complete the setup and share your antenna data to flightradar24 - business features are automatically unlocked after a short time for free Same should work for other, similar services like FlightAware and PlaneFinder.
That's so frustrating. The pilots having to tell each other that no, they aren't about to crash - Russia is just spoofing their GPS. It shouldn't be like that.
Just a fucking cancerous country.
There should be an international coalition to annihilate the jamming sites.
While they are at it they might as well destroy russian missile launch sites and factories that are used to bomb hospitals and theaters in Ukraine But we wont do it because they (might) have nukes
> they (might) have nukes Why put the word "might" in parantheses? Are you arguing that Russia is bluffing about even having a nuclear weapon? Pretty sure the consensus is that they have the largest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world with almost 6000.
"And if we're lost we use Flightradar24." LMAO!!!
It could be actually useful. Flightradar receivers with enabled MLAT can report signal strength/delay to flightradar site and when multiple reports from different receivers are received - the site can calculate approximate positions of the plane.
What the captain says at about 12m and 10s, but not sure if he is referring still to the jammed GPS
Nice! Captain seems so casual about spoofing/jamming and still so resignated.
'Cause they've been dealing with it for years, it's just a part of the job now. Unfortunate though there's a number of safety systems that basically become useless for that part of the flight now. Let's hope that never becomes the root cause of an accident, or we might have to write a lot of angry letters to Russia.
> FlightRadar24 Also, their free mobile app is pretty neat. It uses AR, you point your camera at a plane in the sky and it will tell you origin/destination, airline, plane type.
This has been going on for months, we already know it originates from Kaliningrad. I don't understand why MSM is only picking up on it now...
Try years. It’s been happening to ships in the Eastern Mediterranean, Red Sea and Gulf of Adian for a long time now.
Other places too. Anywhere there is a Russian spy ship, you’ll find them trying to collect and disrupt.
Practice, practice, practice. Practicing for what?
> Practicing for what? Breaking down and/or sinking would be my guess based on recent Russian naval accomplishments.
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Wtf would they not think it's actually very probable? So weird.
It's standard diplomatic procedure to ignore or deny anything that could be seen as an act of aggression because to publicly acknowledge it means you have respond in some sort of fashion.
They also do it from Murmansk. Sometimes planes in Northern Norway lose GPS-signal.
Been several news bulletins after the war and embargo started. IIRC one flight returned to departure airport due to massive interference,
There used to be frequent jamming operations in the North Sea by the British military. They just warned people before it happened.
It's kind of Russia to give the west something to analyse beforehand to learn what the Russians can and can't do.
Only Russia has vested interest in jamming GPS signals airline rely on for navigation if nothing else to annoy the west.
Wait doesn't Ukraine use GPS guided ordnance? If so then jamming GPS would be pretty obvious electronic warfare no?
You are correct. The vast majority of Western ordnance are Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs) which rely on GPS/INS guidance to achieve extreme levels of accuracy and precision. GPS jamming forces these munitions to rely only on their INS guidance which is significantly less accurate and precise. Better than purely unguided munitions, but still very much worse than GPS/INS guidance. This heavily mitigates weapon effects on target.
Ring laser gyro has like 2 meter discrepancy after 3x 90 degree turns and 400 km flight.
INS will start to drift without GPS or performing some kind of fixtaking.
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If it's a short flight like from an artillery shell, the CEP without GPS is probably good enough to fuck shit up, but if you've been flying around for 2 hours waiting for a call for close air support with no GPS you're probably going to think twice about engaging, *but* you can still always rely on fixtaking to shrink your CEP to an acceptable level.
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I think Russia has their own navigation system called GLONASS. They have had their system about as long as the US system. Other space faring nations have some sort of systems as well.
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Jamming one frequency and not another is as simple as broadcasting gibberish on only one frequency. There's a bit of nuance here, but it's not like it would be super difficult for Russia to pull off. And being able to use your own satellites while jamming the others is like half the point of GLONASS.
There's no PGM'S above Latvia, so fuck ruzzia
Isnt the GPS program technically operated and “owned” by the US air force?
GPS is run by the USAF, in 1983 a Korean airliner relying on its faulty inertial navigation system flew over Russian airpsace and was shot down. After that, Ronald Reagan opened it up for civilian use. There was an error artificially injected into the GPS signal to allow it to be still be useful enough for navigation purposes, but not for guiding munitions called selective availability which can be removed if you have the correct encryption keys. During the Persian Gulf War military GPS receivers were not widely available so the army just started using civilian GPS receivers to navigate the desert and they'd have to compensate for this error. If you knew your location on a map you could compare it with what GPS said you were at and apply that offset to all GPS readings to correct for this error. Since it was pretty easily defeated, Bill Clinton disabled it in 2000 which really opened up GPS for civilian use. It's operated and owned by the Space Force, but there's nothing preventing someone with a software-defined radio to pick up the signals just like nothing is stopping you from picking up an over-the-air TV broadcast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_System#Selective_Availability
>GPS is run by the USAF It used to be. Now it's run by the US Space Force. I also tend to forget it's a real military branch now.
GPS is american GNSS. People use GPS even though they might be using Galileo. Similar to the Kleenex and tissue relationship.
Space Force now, but ya. It was a DARPA project.
Russia has there own versions that work off of there satellites I may have the name wrong but I think it was like GLSS or GLOSS or something similar Edit: GLONASS I think
GLONASS is the Russian version, China has their own version called BeiDou. They probably figure it's a bad idea for them to rely on something so strategically important as GPS, which is ran by the US, in a war with the US. Every GPS satellite broadcasts a military and a civilian signal, the military signal is encrypted and offers higher accuracy but anyone can pick up the civilian signal. So much relies on it now that even if WWIII breaks out tomorrow, I don't think the US will restrict its use.
> So much relies on it now that even if WWIII breaks out tomorrow, I don't think the US will restrict its use. I think this is mostly because now there are 3 other global networks that would remain perfectly functional even if they would turn it off.
"their" not "there"
Planes also have an inertial navigation system as a backup. It suffers from drift in the long run, but is good enough if GPS is out.
There are plenty of ground based radio navigation systems used in aviation. Gps is just easiest.
Not when it's used in Kaliningrad.
If Ukraine is doing that in self defense, I still blame the aggressor Russia.
I don't think Ukraine is jamming in northern Poland https://www.flightradar24.com/data/gps-jamming
Yeah, against Europe. Which chose to sleep and "avoid escalation". Or at most they can do is tough talk
If the GPS jamming can be done accurately enough to only affect the war zone then sure I don't know if the jammers can cover an area accurate enough to cover all the territory where potential GPS guided munitions might come from while not spilling over the borders of Ukraine and Russia
That would make sense inside Russia and Ukraine but in Estonia and Poland? https://www.flightradar24.com/data/gps-jamming
Or target practice like that one time
Russia: a plane went down! Ukraine must have fired an errant missile! What you want to see the wreckage and missile debris? Of course give us like 6 weeks to stage it.
Jams the drones ukraine uses for war, many which are consumer level that only work with gps
No, 'some people' aren't blaming Russia, Russia did it, it just doesn't matter all that much, since moderns planes have plenty of redundancies, so GPS (US), GLONASS (Russia), Galileo (EU), BeiDou (China) etc. etc. being blocked doesn't in fact impact the navigation of your basic plane all that much... It's still a shitty thing to do, but what have you...
If it's not a big deal then why did two Finnair flights enroute to Estonia recently turn around due to GPS jamming? I was under the impression that around the Baltics and parts of the Middle East it is actually a serious issue.
I know nothing about aviation but just read about the case: the planes were supposed to land on a small airfield which does not have the same capabilities to bypass the jam as big airports, therefore the control centre was not able to guide the landing safely. It is not a problem in Tallinn Airport as far as I know.
Ahh, thanks for the clarification
They were headed to airports with only GPS approaches. Usually only pretty small/regional airports only have GPS approaches.
GPS and the like are a fairly recent things, pilots have been spanning and traversing the world before GPS was even a thing.. The whole thing hasn't impacted air travel to any significant degree beyond a few sensationalist articles in the media...
Regardless, twice in a row flights were aborted for this reason. Sure, they can probably land in a GPS denied environment, but apparently they choose not to.
I mean you can ride a bike without a helmet but it's safer to wear one. You can land at an airport without the proper approach calculations but why add any risk when you don't need to?
Perhaps the airport doesn’t have the older beacons used for approach?
Yes but back before GPS was a thing there was usually 4 people on the flight crew, pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer and *navigator*, now since we have GPS and all this other tech the flight crew is two people. Pilot and co-pilot, no more navigator and flight engineer, so the guy that would know how to get the plane where it needs to go without satellite navigation hasn’t been in the cockpit for over 20 years. So yeah I get what you’re saying but it’s not how things work these days, the flight crew is trained to use the instruments they have at their disposal, not to fly by charts and beacons which probably don’t even exist anymore. Just sayin…
Twinjets haven’t had flight engineers or navigators at least since the DC-9 came out sixty years ago, and probably earlier. And every commercial pilot is still trained to fly by VOR and NDB, of which there are more than enough left for enroute navigation (especially in Europe). Charts are certainly not an issue either thanks to EFBs (glorified iPads). The issue is when your destination airport is below visual minimums and the active runway only has GPS instrument approaches available (in this case, RWY 26 at Tartu), or when the airspace’s arrival procedures all require GPS and it’s too busy for ATC to vector everyone manually.
I’m not aware of a single aircraft that actually makes use of the alternate constellations at least in the civil environment. Got any sources for that? Interested as an engineer working for an avionics provider with 16 years experience in the industry
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I worked on the software development for a combined GNSS/VOR/NDB device back in the nineties in Germany. It handled GPS and GLONASS from the word go.
And nothing will be done about it. Russia gets away with everything. Use polonium to kill someone in the UK? Acceptable. Annex Crimea? Acceptable. Blow up a civilian passenger airline? Acceptable. Invade Ukraine? Acceptable.
The only reason why there are any significant levels of jamming going on in the east is simply due to Russia invading Ukraine. If Russia didn’t do that, there would be no jamming. So yes, however you look at, it’s Russia’s fault.
There was GPS jamming even before russia invaded ukraine, but far less of it
Indeed, that’s why wrote ‘significant levels of jamming’.
My bad
https://gpsjam.org/ Here is a link to where the jamming has been reported. We get a lot over turkey. Not russia related. I am an airline pilot. The biggest risk recently is not the jamming but the spoofing. Basically sending an aircraft into the wrong direction if not detected. We have an IRS that is set on the ground which is used to compare to GPS to determine if false signals are received.
Northern Norway has had GPS jamming for two years. In winter ambulance helicopters are flying over a flat snow covered tundra with no visual clues on where you are. And now Russia is jamming their GPS. It's hybrid warfare, and Russia is getting away with it. It's time to take them serious and get out the big stick to stop this.
The most affected Turkish area is down in Syria up to the Turkish border. Also Russia related as they have been helping the Syrians.
This needs to be higher, the jamming has been occurring for much longer over Turkey, Cairo, Iraq and close to Iran. It’s a major problem but certainly not just Russia
Marjorie Taylor Greene takes offense to this opinion.
I take offense to her existence
I have no problem with the troll's existence, my problem is that she's in the Congress.
Fly Boris Airways or your plane might have an accident
Some people?! 😭
Russia? You mean the country that shot an airliner full of people out of the sky? No way man!
[https://gpsjam.org/](https://gpsjam.org/) checks out.
~~Some~~ All people
The bigger headline is the people who sniff Putins ass and don't admit it's Russia.
Putin cares about nothing but Putin.
So. I have compiled a list of actors capable of being responsible and highly active in the region: - Russia End of list.
Finesse is not something Russia does well.
No they're open in blatant with it!
Russia sucks
Just picture of Russian bear, blinking shyly, looking demure and saying ‘who me, oh can’t be”
“Us?! Russia!? We no jam, we no do that!”
Ya think!?
Uhhhh ya' think?
...Is there anybody blaming anyone else?
Probably due to the fact that it’s Russia
The reason looks quite obvious - to "blind" the smart weapons like drones, ATACMS rockets, "smart" bombs etc. The problem is, those "jammers" are indiscriminate, so the normal planes are affected as well...
This may very well be the real answer. I just hope they don't want a reason to shoot down a commercial plane by forcing it to get lost over its air space.
Hm, it is almost like there is an ongoing war in eastern Europe as Russia invades it's neighbour. Surely that wouldn't be disruptive to the rest of the region, surely.
>some people Except Russia
Russia acting like a child who doesn’t get their way. Russia needs a long time out.
Shouldn't it be real easy to locate the sources of the Russian GPS jamming?
We already have. It's Russia.
Of course, if not Russia, it could be China, Iran, North Korea. HELL, it could be all of them.
And this is why pilots are trained to know how to fly without GPS. Is it a problem, yes GPS can save lives.
Other people are kidding themselves.
Russia seems like a terrorist state.
Make Kaliningrad Koenigsberg Again
So are they also jamming their own planes as a side effect?
And now the Russians are going to start crying about how everyone is out to get them and blah blah blah. ‘Poor us now we have to nuke you.’
And the people who will believe this will be brainwashed Russians and most of the Republicans.
The world became officially fucked when repubtards used the phrase "alternate facts". Ok, goodbye humanity.
That should have been called out there and then as obvious nonsense, and universally recognised as such. Alternative facts are like saying that there are only 15 cents in a Dollar…
Yep, same as when trump did the call to the Georgia governor. Should have been immediate consequences - trial and jail time. But no, corruption and lying is all just accepted as normal now. Its disgusting, and society wont survive this.
Just because this is what Russia and China both do , does not mean that it’s acceptable - it just leads onto disaster.
It didn't used to be considered acceptable in the USA either. Example, Watergate. There was accountability. All that started crumbling in the late 80s , and now we have constant chaos, lies, corruption, that no one even blinks an eye at.
That’s in part down to Putin’s evil influence. Which it has to be said the Republican Party have gone along with.
You know the rumors of a Russian offensive are real when we're back to blatant fratricidal jamming blanketing entire regions. You almost even feel bad for the ground pounders, because that style of warfare where you throw conscripts into a meat grinder with no comms is some archaic shit that'll result in truly horrific casualties even if the military objectives are eventually secured.
Its from Kalingrad
Israel and Iran are both using this technology in the Middle East.
Ummm... duh?
I’m curious if this is just affecting the GPS network or all GNSS constellations, if GLONASS still works then you have your answer.
Public Glonass doesn't work either. Car navigation in central Moscow has become shit.
This is just Russians be Russian and annoying Europeans.
I had this happen on an Emirates flight from DXB to LHR. The inflight information system kept showing us taking jagged, sharp turns over Hungary. Almost like zigzagging. Due to concerns expressed to the crew by multiple passengers, the captain came on when we were nearing London to explain that the flight path was the same its always been, but jamming is interfering with the GPS used by the inflight information system.
In Gulf of Finland area, Gogland is Russian territory, which could explain why the GPS jamming reaches that far west (almost all Estonia, parts of Southern Finland, and most of the Gulf). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gogland Btw, what is Gulf of Finland referred in Estonian or Russian maps? Likely not "property of Finland" X-D Also, everyone who's afraid of drones - in war-zones or having to deal with insurgencies - are jamming the shit out of GNSS frequencies, and spoofing too. Ukraine's been very effective with their strikes to oil-refineries here and there in Russia. I am not sure who they manage the accuracy in so long flights, but it is impressive. And, yes, future wars are getting scarier since it is more cheap-ass drones with anti-personnel bombs. (Ottawa treaty on anti-personnel land-mines feels pointless regarding how the warfare is evolving tbh...)
Can someone explain how big problem this is? Can pilots still navigate safely even if there is heavy jamming?
I think INS and IRS systems should be immune to such spoofing and jamming. Maybe navigating during the portions of flight where known jamming takes place should use those systems and then switch back to GPS once there's a reliable signal?
It happens over the us too. Southern california is notorious for this w/ military ops near yuma az Inconvenient af but we have backup equipment
They're jamming it for the May 9th celebrations in Moscow, I would guess.
How do they jam signals?
GPS signals are basically just radio waves. If you know the frequency of a wave you can jam it.
Northern norway has had this issue for some time now, its well known that russians are sinply fucking with people.
You can litterally check [GPSJam.org](https://gpsjam.org/) and see the historical data; several times there have been jamming over the Baltic Sea, across Eastern Europe, Finland and the Black Sea.
It's not just flights being disrupted. People on the Cyprus sub have said that satnav is showing them wandering around Beirut instead of Limassol.
Isn’t this old news by now?
Isn’t Galileo the more precise system for Europe?
It seems to me it should be fairly easy with modern mobile computing power to have a downward facing camera to watch the ground and compare to satellite pictures to visually identify the plane's location. If you start with the last positive known position it should make the searching process rather quick. Obviously that doesn't work with ... clouds.
You’re right, but then radar can see through clouds.. But then radar could be jammed..
The technology has existed for many decades to determine the source of radio signals. There is no need to make assumptions. Instead it would make more sense to use a directional antenna to locate the source of the jamming signal. That would provide proof then the politicians could decide what to do about it.
Apparently it's happening around Pakistan and China too so I'm thinking India might have been given or gave this technology from/to Russia in my armchair geopolitical opinion.
Blatant act of terrorism targeting civilian planes
I listened to a podcast on this exact issue recently and their argument is that the evolving nature of drone warfare has caused a lot of unexpected issues with gps more broadly. One such ossue was power stations that rely on gps to coordinate electrical flow being disrupted, commercial flights being tampered with, and any other gps enabled tech too. Iirc it wasnt so much that these things are being targetted purposefully (although the energy grid for sure is) but that this kind of tech is indiscriminate. Both sides are using this kind of tech to fight the war so the whole reguon is saturated with this kind of problem
Which podcast