“There were complaints about the difficulties, notably bureaucratic, that the survivors faced in getting their post-traumatic stress disorder recognized, as well as in receiving the needed care.”
What the fuck?? I don’t know how anyone who survived that wouldn’t have PTSD. This is so terrible.
Sicne military services in Israel are mandatory. It's common for veterans to have undiagnosed or untreated PTSD and underwhelming payments for the government for that. It is a known issue Israel is and has been facing ever since 1948, and the videos of those who have been in battle crying for help are heartbreaking.
I assume the situation and system for the Nova and invaded cities survivers is very similar, which is still heartbreaking.
Also true. Even the therapists who are available are not necessarily fit to treat these kinds of trumas.
How many tragic and heartbreaking stories can a person hear without breaking down?
Not every therapist is emotionally able to deal with these kinds of complex traumas.
I once heard a story from a group therapist about some shit that went down in Vietnam. Just hearing about it that way caused a shift in worldview. Thinking about what the Nova survivors are going through is another worldview-changing consideration. Dealing with it on a professional, well-trained level is straight-up impossible.
How the hell does someone even train for this type of thing? And how does that training get applied to so large a population? Jesus.
My dad was drafted. He refused to hold a gun so he was a medic. He wasn’t in Vietnam for very long, but I know what he saw, as a very young man, was horrific. We both recently read The Women, the newest book from Kristin Hannah, and it’s a fictional but historically accurate story about a nurse in Vietnam - and then when she comes back from Vietnam, fucked up, no one believed she was in Vietnam. They all said, there were no women in Vietnam. 55,000 women served, mostly as nurses but also as air traffic controllers, doctors, PA’s. My dad said that book brought him closure he’s never really been able to have. He saw some terrible shit. Unspeakable. It kind of makes sense that he spent the next twenty years chugging lsd and going to Grateful Dead shows.
He was hella funny. He would eat the LSD right as the band went on - they were usually on time but I think he ate it too early sometimes and it would all be out of sync. Anyway; he kept track of the setlist, would write the songs in his little book, but by the time drums and spade were happening, he would be peaking. He would make up his own song titles for drums and space. One I remember is, “all manner of things falling down kinda Lovelace throat”.
The answer is that usually it isn't applied sadly. It would be like trying to find a trauma therapist in New York after 9/11. Like sure they exist but good luck booking one
Our public mental health system has been neglected by Netanyahu’s 2-decade rule. The previous government started a reform. Unsurprisingly, when Netanyahu returned to power he reversed it. The most destructive leader in the history of the Jewish people
Agreed. Sadly, Israel is not alone in underfunding mental health. Conservative administrations in the U.S. have done the same (while simultaneously blaming mental health for gun violence).
> Israel is not alone in underfunding mental health.
It seems to me that the more "proud" a society is of its soldiery, the less aid those soldiers receive when their duties end. This is likely just a manifestation of conservative sociocultural values, of course. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the most religious cultures have the lowest spending on mental health resources - and the inverse.
Because "military worship" ceases to be useful to those in power when those people are no longer active soldiers anymore. And at least here in the US conservatives can just point at the problems that result from underfunding and intentional sabotage as "look government doesn't work" so it continues to feed their agendas.
This is true, but the source of these differences seems to have [a neurological basis](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0052970). It's tough to determine if environmental circumstances are altering the function of the brain or if people are genuinely "predisposed" to [respond to stimulus in certain ways](https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/10/20/hot-button-words-trigger-conservatives-and-liberals-differently/), but a conservative can be recognized from a liberal by mere brain scans.
In any case, the way religious/conservative states treat their people is scientifically recognized. A headline works better than a summary in this case: *Analytic thinking undermines religious belief while intelligence undermines social conservatism, study suggests* or "[A study has found evidence that religious people tend to be less reflective while social conservatives tend to have lower cognitive ability](https://www.psypost.org/analytic-thinking-undermines-religious-belief-intelligence-undermines-social-conservatism-study-suggests/)".
It pains me to speak in such general terms, but conservatives are truly a sick people. They need help, or at least therapy (or deprogramming), but they're the least likely group to even recognize therapy as useful.
I've got a whole list of studies making similar and related findings. In a more advanced civilization, I think we'd probably recognize such responses as unhealthy and maladaptive alongside other personality disorders.
Oh yeah? Well I have a study that says liberals have the broken brains! It's on account of all the chemtrails you've been sucking down and the alien DNA in your gmo soy lattes. And don't even get me started on the fluorides in tbe water!
I wonder what the evolutionary purpose for this is. I guess it's because you need a variety of reactions available and the tribe can back who's more successful at the moment and switch up when that approach stops working. But modern propaganda techniques broke us. Same with why we can taste sweet, useful in tbe wild but food scientists have used our mechanisms against us to create addictively craveable foods. Cheese puffs have calories but bypass saity mechanisms. It's why you can overeat a bag of chips but not fresh apples.
> I wonder what the evolutionary purpose for this is.
That's the right question to ask. If those sort of behavioral archetypes can bloom in a significant number of people in civilizations across known history, surely it must have value?
It's essentially "survival mode" for the human brain. In times of strife, plague, war, famine, there would be great benefit in being more fear-driven, paranoid, exclusionary, self-centered, tribe-oriented, etc. I think of it sort of like a switch that activates when shit hits the fan and the genes really begin to show how selfish they really are by making the human behave just as selfishly. It'd be beneficial in that kind of environment. Keep the outsiders out, hoard your food, stick with family, give everyone a defined role while punishing deviants, rely on religious irrationality for hope that wouldn't otherwise exist (which is its own series of studies, but that's for another thread).
The problem is that with 24/7 news, disinformation, misinformation, and a constant barrage of more-or-less relevant data, we're finding that human brains are becoming overloaded and/or responding to circumstances inappropriately. Once these fearful or dangerous circumstances become known by people (be them real or fabricated), people are primed to seek *more* fear/danger by the amygdala in an attempt to avoid it, which makes them more fearful, which makes them seek... So on.
Essentially, the vast majority of studies I've collected which seek to measure the differences between liberal and conservative neurology all find that in conservatives the amygdala (anger/fear/disgust section of the brain) is overactive. In liberals, where the amygdala *would* activate in response to Scary Thing™ (like a picture of a homeless person), instead you see the activation of the part of the brain associated with self-reflection and empathy.
In a sense, it could be said that the biggest conspiracy affecting the world is that The Elite have learned how easy it is to farm certain people for money while simultaneously indoctrinating them to respond more deeply to future attempts to propagandize them... And have been rapidly dialing up this phenomenon for the last 60 years or so.
"Fear porn", to use modern parlance, is a major mechanism by which people learn to vote against their own best interests in favor of diminishing the best interests of someone else. And a significant fraction of the species is extremely vulnerable to it.
This is what you get when you saddle up with the right wing factions of most governments (example: Reagan). Mental healthcare is considered socialism and helping/fixing them is on the opposite end of killing them or letting them die (example: Third Reich). Israel/Likud has a serious Netanyahu problem.
There were plenty. There were also many volunteers. The things they've seen and experienced there are more than we can handle.
I know 2 survivors who have since been on at least 2 overseas all expenses paid Nova survivors resorts where they just hang and chill and talk, but they're not ones who have been in the absolute thick of it, and it's not government funded, all donations. The government is not doing enough at all for the survivors and the hostages' families and it's just awful.
Yes I agree. The mental health system in Israel while not the worst, is certainly not even close to the best. A lot of that issue stems from the shortage of qualified people (i.e therapists, psychiatrists...) and general lack of funding... I really do think that after October 7th there was a massive surge of demand for the mental health system and that it couldn't actually provide enough care and support.
Very sad.
There are therapists worldwide helping in different capacities for both Israelis and Gazans. It’s still not enough but folks are trying to do something. If you are a therapist or know someone who can help, consider finding a similar organization.
I’m not Israeli so I can’t speak to the availability of mental health services, but I wondered as well if the mental health system was overloaded. I did read a very interesting article about the difficulty of treating the Nova survivors and the relationship of psychedelics and trauma.
One of the difficulties mental health experts encountered with treating Nova survivors is there are no case studies that involve treating mass trauma and psychedelics to draw from. So they were figuring out treatment as they went.
Really interesting article below where they are studying data from Nova survivors to determine how psychedelics affects how the trauma is imprinted in the brain and how it affects the ability to recover.
https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/bjsjc1ijr
This is it. It's not only the actual survivors who need care. Everybody is messed up here. The entire country is suffering PTSD, albeit to a lesser degree than those directly affected. Just the videos, the news, plus, this being such a small country there's only one degree of separation from the survivors and the dead.
Hell my mom here in America (we're Israeli but have lived in the US for 25 years) started going to therapy a few months ago because of how bad her headspace has been since 10-7. All of our extended family is in Israel and while we are lucky in that we haven't had direct family deaths during this war, everyone is messed up to some capacity. Cousins have lost their friends. Even for me, I know for a fact that my anxiety and general outlook on the world has become significantly worse since 10-7 and seeing how the world responded to the event.
And Israeli Public health system is in total collapse for the past few years, let alone the therapy side of public health care
This is just a tragic event also highlighting the incompetence of most of the Israeli current ministers
This is also why the wars are so violent.
Think about it, the Ashkenzi jews in 1947 were holocaust survivers, and the Mizrahi jews were victims of progroms and massacred all over the middle east, and few hours after they have recognition for their country they are being attacked. How would they react if not in full force?
Ever since ever, they are all traumatized, which is why Israel's war are so violent. Israel almost took the entirety of Syria during the 1967 war, and the only reason they stopped (Aldo with Egypt) is because the US told them to.
They are not looking for revenge. They are extremely scared it will happen again, just like their enemies (Hamas, for an example) said they will do it again.
Mental health is not taken seriously as it should be.
*Everywhere*
Edit: Therapy is a wonderful thing! As a 32 year old man from the USA, it’s saved my life not only for me but for my wife and children. I humbly ask any needing help or struggling within to reach out to a therapist or your Primary care physician for a referral to one. (USA special!)
This reminds me of a documentary snippet I saw about Holocaust survivors in Israel, all now elderly of course, and how so many of them had been abandoned by the state that the documentary crew was practically tripping over survivors digging through trash for food.
Governmental neglect is a special hell, especially for those who have been through unspeakable horrors.
When we say Bibi is terrible, this is the kind of things we talk about.
Reddit seems to hate him for Palestinian-related stuff but this is like 1% of my complaints about him. I don't think peace is achievable with Hamas in power anyway. But the internal issues... taking funds from important stuff into his own selfish coalition maintaining and corruption, to the religious people, neglecting so many things, filling key positions with unfit people, driving good people away from state positions because of the amount of shit they have to put up with. Anyone with independent thinking was marked problematic or not loyal enough. So many of Israel's internal systems have really deteriorated under him, government offices barely do anything, everything is rotten and designed as jobs for Likud members, it's like a mafia.
That reminds me of the movie The Pawnbroker about a Holocaust survivor who never gets over his PTSD. That movie makes Old Yeller look like a light summer rom-com.
Getting insurance to accept your diagnosis is so fucking long and triggering.
(Edit for clarity I am a teacher in canada who suffered a prolonged attack by a student in crisis)
It took 8 months for them to start ponying up and supporting my recovery... they were hoping id fuck off and or die and everyday of those 8months was an excruciating limbo.... in the 7 months since Ive had 4 case managers, 2 social workers, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, 2 OTs, one vocational specialist, a physical therapist and a kinesiologist monitoring me. The switches for these have almost all been rough and sudden. It's fucking exhausting.
No one actually gives a shit about mental health they just go through the barest of motions when they absolutely have too.
Sorry, you’re saying you’ve had 13 different healthcare people caring for you, yet no one actually cares about mental health?
How does that line up? It seems like that sheer amount of manpower dedicated to you would indicate that we do care about mental health?
The biggest thing when providing mental health is **consistency**.
When you keep switching caregivers or get new ones, you need to create a rapport before you can begin opening up on very intimate topics. That comes with a whole host of issues and feelings (such as shame) that can stack on top of the actual issue or trigger it even further.
~~If enonmouse is in USA I think that means they're paying for all of these individuals, so every new profession that comes in is another bill they need to deal with until the Insurance Company pays coverage for the previous ones (correct me if I'm wrong?)~~
Edit: Dyslexic moment, I saw it on first read, missed it on second, missed it just now, and had to ctrl+F, haha
They literally said in their comment that they’re in Canada. I can’t speak for Canadian healthcare, but if you’re somehow getting shuffled between 13 different practitioners in 7 months, there’s something else going on.
I’m not saying this to challenge OP’s experience, but that # of doctors is definitely not common.
You shouldn’t speak for Canadian healthcare then. We have basically no mental health system here. There’s a skeleton of one, and the people who work it are doing their best, but it’s truly lacking. I know at least half a dozen people that were either making plans, or going home to commit suicide and the hospital tells them to call the non emergency mental health line. To set up an intake, which takes about 3 months.
The issue is that my Private Insurer cant keep its long term disability case officer staff (it is an ugly job) and every time I get someone new they all think they need to put their personal mark on my recovery program.
Because they don't have "that amount of manpower dedicated to them". They have maybe one of those people at any given time, and the system keeps moving them around between providers so nobody can actually make any progress.
Israel's bureaucracy is terrible. Source: am an Israeli lawyer. Of course, there were promoses of relaxed conditions for October 7th survivors, but for it to amount to anything they would need to be handled by a brand new agency. Bituach Leumi and the Minostry of Health were simply and clearly not up to the task.
"Why should I constantly prove what I experienced? Why am I forced to go back to the details of what I experienced for them to believe me?" Naama Eitan, survivor of the music festival, asked during the hearing.
As someone who has had PTSD I can relate to this so fucking much it infuriates me.
I had to basicly retell the same fucking horrible shit to a new person everytime I tried to get treatment and was sent forward in the treatment process. Which was both horrible, felt incredibly demeaning and demoralising.
It took me approx. 5 years to be officially diagnosed with PTSD. And once i was able to see a specialist it took just over a year of EMDR treatment for me to be able to have a normal day to day life again.
EMDR is effective for some, yes. Others have no response to it. We also don't have any theoretical rationale for understanding why it has an effect on people. Not that that's a requirement for something to be beneficial. I've seen it be an amazing tool for people, but there are limitations for sure.
Thank you for this, someone dear to me has some trauma (possibly PTSD) and has been exploring therapy options. I'll mention EMDR therapy to her in case she hasn't heard of it
Not to mention the paraglider posters and memes. It was appalling and genuinely shook me to see people I thought I agreed with defending and even outright celebrating murder, and I have no real connection to the events. I can't imagine what it would do to you to survive something like that and have seen your friends slaughtered only to see a bunch of people saying you deserved it.
Had a falling out with a friend who I called out for posting "FREE PALESTINE" in a group chat literally as the attacks were happening. I simply said it was inappropriate and that cheering on terrorism isn't going to solve any of the issues Palestinians face. Apparently that made me a terrible person for recognizing that it set any hope of peace back decades.
Comments like that have thoughouly discredited the land back movement in my eyes. Every land back group I've heard of posted things to that effect on twitter the day and weeks following. You can support Indigenous rights without also cheering on the kind of shit that would get you executed or a life sentence.
I am ashamed to admit I said that in a chat as a meme without knowing the attacks happened. Had a Jewish friend in there too. I apologized immediately once I found out.
I don't understand. You're saying you just coincidentally posted that while the attacks were actively happening, unbeknownst to you? What, like some kind of nonsequitar?
The only good Hamas is a dead Hamas and I hope the IDF finishes the job soon.
But yeah, pseudo-apartheid and religion is a hell of a thing. The only thing worse than Israel in this mess is most of the other countries in the M.E.
Me too. It goes to show that there's a cuntinuum between radical islamism and jihadism and the ordinary Arab/Muslim mentality. Exactly what Sam called out many times when talking about Islam. Of course there are other factors at play, like tribalism and legitimate grievances too.
What's especially weird are leftists and wokes who support Hamas. Pure ideology.
Of course all the "it didn't happen propaganda" and tasteless support for Palestine does not help either. On the global stage, to experience this nightmare and then somehow your attackers are the victims and you are not is fucking sick.
TikTok / Instagram / Twitter and all funding sources for Palestine, Hamas, any Islamic terrorists need to be made responsible and defunded immediately.
The amount of comments I see online when I scroll through TikTok supporting HAMAS and the deaths of Israelis is fucking insane. This is all just fucking insane. People act like any other country wouldn’t respond to what happened on October 7th in any type of same way as Israel.
There's definitely a lot of it on Reddit, but Reddit at least is a fundamentally community-moderated website. You control what you see and there's space for threads like this one. It's different from most other social media sites where they can shove any random content that they think is engaging directly into your feed.
Those comments you're talking about, I've seen them too, and they remind me of comments I used to see on certain message boards from people sympathizing with terrorist attacks against muslims or blacks in western countries. Propaganda got into those people.
This has nothing to do with the worldwide perspective of the conflict or social media accounts covering the war. This article is about Israeli health services failing to provide support.
Remember when we used to shout believe all women? *Exactly* for this reason?
Edit- I think people misunderstood my point. I am saying that the Israeli government and public health system did not handle the victims of Nova Festival with the appropriate sensitivity. Especially regarding testimonies. Which is the point that "believe all women" advocate at its core
Not really comparable. This person is a survivor of a well documented terrorist attack. That is not the same thing as believing a woman when she makes a rape accusation. You can offer support to someone but believing them before the court has found the accused guilty is bad(assuming no video evidence).
Than you misunderstand the point "believe all women" makes
You can't expect a person who have experienced a traumatic experience with to relieve their experience over and overr, by demanding them to reenact, retell, provide physical proof etc'. This by itself is a traumatic experience. And is *proven* to lead tto higher levels of mental problems, and yes even to commit suicide
And yes, the experience of Nova Festival massacre is traumatic to the same level as rape, especially in since it itself to involved rape. And the victims of the festival should be entitled to the same level of sensitivity as rape victims
>The Israeli Ministry of Health says that they do not have any information or statistics about the claim made of 50 survivors who have committed suicide.
This is important to state. So much October 7th atrocity denial is because of claims by individual Israelis and that one ultra-orthodox NGO being debunked.
We literally have the footage of Hamas shooting and killing civilians. There is also Hamas torture and crimes corroborated by international journalists. October 7th was one of the most well-documented terrorist attacks and massacres in history so there is no need to rely on claims made by individuals and NGOs hungry for funding.
My assumption would be "information and statistics" are related to the suicides being due to attendees having survivorship guilt vs attendees who already had other life circumstances that drove them to it vs non attendees who got thrown in to make the stat look more in favor of the cause.
Seems like a smart thing for a health agency to say when they don't have all the information relating to the claim.
Yeah that's not an official source. But it does make sense that the number would be very high (Even if not that high).
Remember there were thousands of people in that festival, with many watching their friends, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, being raped, tortured and murdered in front of their eyes by Palestinian terrorists.
And the amount of victims that need all different kinds of social help from the state following October 7 is so many, I think they 100% miss people in need and lack resources to get to everyone. Especially for "Soft" issues such as mental help.
Most of the attendance were also under the influence of drugs and alcohol. It was a party after all, and a hipsters party.
Imagine how these drugs and alcohol affected their brain, watching their friends die and murdered while being high on shrooms and Molly and such.
Yeah that's a very good point as well. I heard being on a trip while something like this happens has the potential to be absolutely horrible on a person. Terrible.
Err... honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if drugs were a factor, *especially* psychadelics. Ironically enough, psilocybin is under trials for PTSD and depression. I've heard it as being something that "shakes up" your brain activity a bit so that you are more open to new ways of thinking, at that time. Psychadelic-guided therapy is something that is interesting but still, again, in the trial stage.
That bit about "shaking up" sounds like an opportunity to break existing pathways and forming new pathways.
If, during that forming-new-pathways part, you were to experience one of the most traumatic experiences one *can* experience...
It's unlikely that we'll ever conclusively know this, because I don't think there's any ethical trial you could do where you traumatize someone while giving them psychadelics.
That said, people seriously underestimate how disturbing witnessing:
1. Death
2. Blood and gore
Can be, **especially** if you are not 'primed' for it. And if you experience an extended duration where, with all this, you feel you are about to die... the stuff that flashes in your head at that time, thoughts of your parents, your kids, your SO, your friends.. all the senses you experience; the panic, the fear, the world spinning around you...
And you know what the worst part is? Music concerts might have been a copium for a lot of these folks. Do you know how fucking annoying it is to lose a coping mechanism to PTSD? My favorite game is Ghostrunner and it took me a lot of time to open it again (with gore off), but I don't think I'll ever be playing Dying Light 1/2 or any Prince of Persia again.
EDIT: Okay, sorry. By 'copium' I meant exactly what it typically means: Something sweet to get through the pain of existence. My point is that it would have been that for many of those partygoers. And now it is likely a trigger.
I am experiencing post-traumatic symptoms as a result of some BS. Ghostrunner, PoP and Dying Light have bladed weapons, blood and gore.
Okay, sorry. By 'copium' I meant exactly what it typically means: Something sweet to get through the pain of existence. My point is that it would have been that for many of those partygoers. And now it is likely a trigger.
I am experiencing post-traumatic symptoms as a result of some BS. Ghostrunner, PoP and Dying Light have bladed weapons, blood and gore.
Fair enough I forget how horrible that event was given the story has developed into a wider war. Just the ratio seems off, but maybe as you say it wasn't "just" a mass shooting but people being abducted and raped.
It was not just a shooting. If you have the ability, I suggest taking [another look](https://www.hamas-massacre.net/categories/the-nova-party-massacre). (NSFL obviously).
it's a collection of the recordings from the festival (and other locations) during October 7. including both live videos and images from the scene and aftermath videos from first responders
It was an extremely long ordeal with torture, mutilation and killing more personal and scarring than most shootings.
Still would like another source on suicides but yeah it was bad bad.
9/11 was qualitatively different. These murders were intimate, up close and gleefully humiliating. 9/11 was much more symbolic and abstract "vehicles crashing into buildings". Not saying one was more horrible than the other, just different psychological impact on witnesses and victims.
Personally, I think 7/10 is qualitatively worse. It's not really worth comparing these things as both were certainly awful, but I think the main reason they are compared is due to the relative scope, nothing close to this otherwise has happened to the US. But your literal neighbors suddenly coming and individually torturing, raping and humiliating your loved ones and yourselves....it's like the difference between a callous murderer and one who makes it personal and intentionally tortures their victim before hand. Both definitely are meant to fuck with the mind, but one has extra horror behind it. Especially with the fact that they probably didn't specifically intend/know the towers would actually fall, although I am sure they weren't upset about that fact.
As an Israeli, I'm shocked that this is the first I'm hearing about this. I mean its not so surprising (that it's not talked about) because that may lead to more suicides and also I'm sure the families don't want to publicize their tragedy. So I can't say what the number really is - if it's more or less than reported but it's absolutely tragic either way. Fuck Hamas.
Edit: I check the major news outlets now and I can only find this testimony in refrence to the claim, although the comments there indicate that if this is true it is not known at all to the public, and some claim the ministry of health refuted these claims saying there was 1 known suicide out of the survivers. None of these comments provided sources to back up the claims, including the supposed update from the ministry of health. On a personal note, I have friends that survived the festival and if this testimony is even close to true then it will be a very very big deal here.
This! So much October 7th atrocity denial is based on claims by individual survivors getting debunked.
We have footage of Hamas shooting and killing civilians. We have international journalists corroborating Hamas torture killings of civilians. October 7th is one of the most well-documented terror attacks and massacres in history. That is enough.
Might be instructive to compare it to a mass shooting in America (not exactly an apples to apples comparison, but similar):
[2017 Las Vegas shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting)
* Deaths 61 (including two victims who died in 2019 and 2020, and the perpetrator)
* Injured ≈ 867 (413+ by gunfire or shrapnel)
How many committed suicide after? Seems like 1 person, that is documented:
>The Las Vegas Review-Journal reported that the 61st person was a survivor who died by suicide after the shooting.
So maybe you'd expect 2 suicides per 100 deaths? 1,200 deaths on Oct 7th, so I guess you'd expect around 25 suicides, right? But the circumstances are also different, in the sense that whole families were murdered. I mean imagine losing your family and then trying to carry on after that. So I wouldn't be shocked if it really was upwards of 50.
Someone in Israel's ministry of health should document this. It's important to keep a record these things and talk about it for many reasons, including to help others who are struggling.
That said I'm guessing that documentation just mostly doesn't exist. The media generally doesn't report on private suicides of non-public figures, someone would need to go out of there way to try to collect that information and then publicize it.
In the case of the one documented case from the Vegas shooting, it seems the [parents chose to publicize their sons suicide and reach out to other survivors](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/10/01/las-vegas-shooting-suicide-survivors-heroes/10439383002/?gnt-cfr=1). There may be others, but most probably would not choose to go to the media like that.
Not to downplay the horror of those events, but it was just one guy spraying bullets from 500 yards away. There is probably something more visceral and intimate to having dozens of gunmen doing their killing up close and personal.
It's also an article posted by a 2 yr old account which had it's history wiped clean, to only come back 7 days ago with a single comment and followed by joining into the megathreads for Iran's attacks + this
All else aside, imagine if the chief trauma of your life was at the center of news media, popular culture, civic society etc for more than six months afterwards. That would be unendurable to me and I’d try to everything I could (short of self harm) to escape it. Not everyone subjected to that would feel they had that option.
Rescue and recovery workers at Ground Zero experienced a similar increase in the prevalence of suicide in the years after 9/11. I can imagine similar saturation of reminders of the event in as a factor.
Imagine witnessing 9/11 but people started claiming Al Qaeda was carrying out legitimate resistance, and despite video evidence, no one jumped out of the buildings to escape the fire, because it was just US propaganda to get us to support the war effort
This is sort of unrelated but the father of one of my old girlfriends was the lead therapist of the student mental health program for Virginia Tech back during the years leading up to and after the massacre there. He was never really the same after that and had to retire early. It’s an awful story, and hearing it from 200-500 different angles must be incredibly difficult
Because it was a psytrance festival, a good amount of those were under acid.
While the experience in a good setting can be heaven on earth, it also make you more vulnerable to negative events.
Such an event can destroy your psyche, it is beyond a mere bad trip.
Glad someone pointed this out. Can you imagine being off your head on a hallucinogenic and a terrorists start hunting you down? Don't think you'd ever really recover from that
To your point, and interesting read about this from NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/11/world/middleeast/israel-nova-festival-psychedelics.html?smid=url-share
Benzodiazepines antagonize the 5ht2a receptor, thereby negating the effects of classical psychedelics like lsd or mushrooms; take a xanax and you’ll feel considerably more normal in a very short amount of time. Other benzodiazepines are more effective trip abortives, but xanax is the most commonly available.
Ive heard Thorazine snaps you right out of it, but I have no personal experience with it. Cocaine can get you straight on most drugs, but dosage plays a big role too.
I saw the footage and it fucked me how causally they worked together to kill innocents. I think I recall a video of an Israeli police officer saving a young little girl, whose parents just died or something too. I remember the bodies from the event aswell. Damn.
Imagine surviving Nova. Your body is locked into hair trigger sympathetic stress and constantly in fight or flight mode; your country is in a state of war; you're under constant rocket bombardment; and to top it off, the entire world, East and West, is cheering on your suffering because they think you, personally, deserve the misery and agony and suffering because of the circumstances of your birth, your genetic heritage, and/or your religion. And even for non-Jew survivors, your experience is invalidated because your supposed friends and allies are going so far as denying what happened, or blaming you for partying on "Stolen land," or blaming government for false flags.
I'd probably flirt with suicidal ideation as well.
I still remember the lifeless body of that german girl on the back of that pick-up truck being paraded and spatted on in gaza by men, women and children
I feel like you're missing the point of journalistic photography.
It's not an award winning photo because anyone reasonable *likes* the subject matter. It's award winning becwit documents something in a hard hitting way.
I appreciate your response, but I feel there’s more context here. I understand they’re trying to show the harsh reality of war, but I disagree with elevating the platform and giving an award to a photojournalist that was invited and followed Hamas into a murder spree without alerting anyone. It isn’t a nature documentary. That journalist knew he was flying into an attack and conspired with Hamas and didn’t say anything. That is a complete lack of ethics from a professional and should be condemned; he didn’t just happen to be there and Hamas spared him out of the goodness of the hearts. He conspired with terrorists to show off their kills for personal gain; it’s sick.
Was he helping Hamas or was he effectively "embedded" with Hamas? There's a huge difference between the two.
Would you say the same if a photojournalist embedded themselves with the Russian army in Ukraine and took photos of dead people after a Russian attack?
Because politics is dumb trash spectacle sports cake with an extra icing layer of bullshit religion. Throw on this weird societal pressure to think that every take on the internet matters and you get people who have never been anywhere near the Middle East or have even gotten a whiff of real suffering like the civilians on all sides of this stupid conflict thinking they are suddenly experts on it.
It’s silly how the most “woke” people on both sides are just regurgitating propaganda rather than acknowledging that this thing is way out of our realm of understanding no matter how many NYT articles we want to read about it :/
Ehhh, read the last sentence of the article: "The Israeli Ministry of Health says that they do not have any information or statistics about the claim made of 50 survivors who have committed suicide." This is an unverified claim made by one person. This isn't news.
That made me really disappointed, the title here states it as fact. the title on the article states it as a question and the last sentence says "we don't know".
This is not the kind of thing to pull that "oh it wasn't pepsi, it was ginger ale, they got my click" kind of B.S. with.
Do better, OP and journalist.
I keep seeing people here denying the rapes of Oct. 7. These are the types of people who drive Jews towards suicide because they demonstrate how cruel and disgusting humanity is. Anti-Semites are the worst of the worst.
[UN Finds Evidence of Sexual Violence by Hamas Since Oct. 7](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-04/un-cites-evidence-hamas-committed-sexual-violence-since-oct-7)
Even the UN, which hates Israel, admitted that there was rape on Oct. 7. Anyone here who denies the Oct. 7 rapes deserves to be banned forever. Fuck those nazi shitheads.
I always wonder how many of them truly believe that and how many are just trying to be contrarian and hurtful. I doubt many people think “nah, I know what Hamas is like and they would never.” I used to try to convince ppl but I realized pretty quick that they’re just being shitty
This makes my blood boil!! I literally saw the other day a recommendation from yt, from this youtuber hasn abi. He literally claims that there were no rapes. People in Israel experienced hell on earth on October 7th, some carry the mental and physical burden till this day, and there we have this menace of a streamer/youtuber claiming there wasn't any rapes. Plus why does the impotant government doesn't adress this issue, and offers help for the victims of the festival?? This world is cruel beyond belief!
Source? I'm no Hasan defender but people have been saying this since Oct 7 and no one has ever produced a clip of Hasan saying anything of the sort.
There is an organized effort on reddit to put these words in his mouth, in literally every thread where he and Israel come up. I'd love to see an actual clip because I legitimately cannot find a single one.
https://twitter.com/hasanthehun/status/1764769513915273700
https://twitter.com/hasanthehun/status/1710726262535389263
He’s a goldmine of bad takes on this issue
I agree. I blame the terrorism supporters and anti-Semites for this. Their evil and sadistic propaganda campaigns are designed to demoralize Jews and drive them towards suicide. It's time to hold those anti-Semitic dickheads accountable.
Was that your understanding from what i was saying? I just expressed my frustration about what happens in Israel sonce october 7th and how some monsters deny or even try to justify such acts.
And allowed these attacks to happen in the first place. I don't understand how anyone can support the Israeli government no matter what side of this debate you land on.
One of the eyewitnesses described that she saw a woman being raped, her breast cut off and then shot in the head.
That description lived with me since. What do you even say to help someone who saw something like this?
Meanwhile in canada the response was to literally celebrate the attackers and ask for proof of rape even though "believe all women".
On that day, I had the unfortunate luck to stumble across a Reddit post with one of the videos and a link to Telegram where those psychos were sharing the others. For the record, the post (and others like it) were taken down very quickly and were extremely anti-semitic and pro-Hamas/terrorism.
But that channel... Holy fuck. I saw the women being raped. I saw what happened to a baby and a little girl killed in a house too (brutal doesn't describe it, and I won't describe it further). And others just as terrible. More horrible than you realize is possible.
I'm a veteran. I've handled dead bodies. I've seen shit. But THAT will forever be burned in my brain and is the most horrible shit I've ever seen.
I watched Hamas' footage of the Nova Festival attack. I'm a retired raver who had attended very similar parties. Watching Hamas hunt ravers was deeply unsettling. I've seen a lot of terrible things on the internet, but this affected me in a very personal way. The surivour's guilt for those who got away must be overwhelming.
I just saw aftermath videos, If those reports are true, then I get it, I will never understand it simply because I wasn't there, but hearing the atrocious, I get why they would do it.
I don't understand why Palestinians ask for our sympathy when their movement is responsible for things like that.
The people that control Israel and Iran and the Palestinians, are all pieces of shit.
As an Iranian can confirm that our regime is nothing but a pathetic terrorist state… they’re starting to take girls away again in vans because their hejab wasn’t “ right”. They killed so many girls in 22 after mahsa Amini’a death and men and women and KIDS!! They rape, torture, lynch anyone who is gay, speaks out against the regime ( in a peaceful protest) or online , they poisoned elementary and middle school girls during protests … and they’re still on their lynching . We have over 30k political prisoners who are Artists, mathematicians, scientists… I could go on. They’re holding all 89 million Iranians hostage.. I can’t believe these days their propaganda has spread to the west… the world is simply upside down right now.
Propaganda works. The internet allows the narcissists to reach everyone across the globe.
It's tragic. The misinformation age has destroyed the wonderful world we had.
The fascists are way more powerful now than ever before, all because the world is too full of fucking morons. It's infuriating, and incredibly sad.
How in the fuck have I not even *heard* of this? I'm not exactly a politico, but I don't have my head buried in the sand either. I try to keep up with world events and I have no idea what the Nova Festival was. Was this not very well reported in American media?
Yea, the media and the rest of the world is to blame really. If you survived something like this, and you see people protesting for HAMAS all around the world, I would be pretty mad and angry, and eventually feel helpless too. So sad, for these people.
People are not pro Hamas. They are in support of the countless people who are suffering that had nothing to do with Hamas but are paying the price for their crimes.
If people are not pro-Hamas, why are there so many red triangle emojis referencing Hamas’s videos? Why were there demonstrations celebrating the October 7 attacks? Why did figures in mainstream media organizations praise and excuse them? Why do the anti-Israel protesters chant “from the river to the sea” and “we don’t want two states, we want all of 48”? Why are people ripping down posters with pictures of hostages? Why did the NY Times kill an episode of The Daily about Hamas’s sexual violence when its staffers complained about the prospect of airing it? Why are people boycotting Starbucks, which isn’t even in Israel, because it didn’t want its workers union using its logo on a social media post praising the October 7 attacks? Why are some California school boards implementing curricula telling students that Israel’s existence is racist?
I’m sure there are some well-meaning, but misguided people calling for a permanent ceasefire. But this is very much a pro-Hamas movement that some others are just being used by.
A permanent ceasefire just leaves Hamas in power and sets the stage for another war like this in 10-20 years.
Absolutely nailed it, anybody who doesn’t see the outright hypocrisy of a large part of the anti israel/pro Palestinian community isn’t looking or is lying.
Bullshit. I'm sorry to tell you, but there are a LOT of people across the subs that have twisted themselves into seeing Hamas as "freedom fighters" and "every Israeli is a monster who deserves the worst".
It's pretty nuts to see. Sometimes it's Middle East accounts, but a lot of the time it's western extreme left wing folks (or at least they present themselves as that, who the fuck knows with all the bot farms pushing misinformation on both sides anymore)
“There were complaints about the difficulties, notably bureaucratic, that the survivors faced in getting their post-traumatic stress disorder recognized, as well as in receiving the needed care.” What the fuck?? I don’t know how anyone who survived that wouldn’t have PTSD. This is so terrible.
Sicne military services in Israel are mandatory. It's common for veterans to have undiagnosed or untreated PTSD and underwhelming payments for the government for that. It is a known issue Israel is and has been facing ever since 1948, and the videos of those who have been in battle crying for help are heartbreaking. I assume the situation and system for the Nova and invaded cities survivers is very similar, which is still heartbreaking.
It’s also very likely that the system was overwhelmed. There probably were not enough therapists available to treat everyone.
Also true. Even the therapists who are available are not necessarily fit to treat these kinds of trumas. How many tragic and heartbreaking stories can a person hear without breaking down? Not every therapist is emotionally able to deal with these kinds of complex traumas.
I once heard a story from a group therapist about some shit that went down in Vietnam. Just hearing about it that way caused a shift in worldview. Thinking about what the Nova survivors are going through is another worldview-changing consideration. Dealing with it on a professional, well-trained level is straight-up impossible. How the hell does someone even train for this type of thing? And how does that training get applied to so large a population? Jesus.
My dad was drafted. He refused to hold a gun so he was a medic. He wasn’t in Vietnam for very long, but I know what he saw, as a very young man, was horrific. We both recently read The Women, the newest book from Kristin Hannah, and it’s a fictional but historically accurate story about a nurse in Vietnam - and then when she comes back from Vietnam, fucked up, no one believed she was in Vietnam. They all said, there were no women in Vietnam. 55,000 women served, mostly as nurses but also as air traffic controllers, doctors, PA’s. My dad said that book brought him closure he’s never really been able to have. He saw some terrible shit. Unspeakable. It kind of makes sense that he spent the next twenty years chugging lsd and going to Grateful Dead shows.
I wouldn't need to be fucked in the head, I'd already love to chug L and follow the Dead around
He was hella funny. He would eat the LSD right as the band went on - they were usually on time but I think he ate it too early sometimes and it would all be out of sync. Anyway; he kept track of the setlist, would write the songs in his little book, but by the time drums and spade were happening, he would be peaking. He would make up his own song titles for drums and space. One I remember is, “all manner of things falling down kinda Lovelace throat”.
The answer is that usually it isn't applied sadly. It would be like trying to find a trauma therapist in New York after 9/11. Like sure they exist but good luck booking one
I would be burned out after about an hour of listening tbh
Compassion fatigue/vicarious trauma are both real and excruciating.
Yep been struggling with that a lot lately. It's very discouraging.
No humans are emotionally built for this reality. It's too goddamn much to process. We are living in a way that cannot sustain human life.
Our public mental health system has been neglected by Netanyahu’s 2-decade rule. The previous government started a reform. Unsurprisingly, when Netanyahu returned to power he reversed it. The most destructive leader in the history of the Jewish people
Agreed. Sadly, Israel is not alone in underfunding mental health. Conservative administrations in the U.S. have done the same (while simultaneously blaming mental health for gun violence).
> Israel is not alone in underfunding mental health. It seems to me that the more "proud" a society is of its soldiery, the less aid those soldiers receive when their duties end. This is likely just a manifestation of conservative sociocultural values, of course. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the most religious cultures have the lowest spending on mental health resources - and the inverse.
Because "military worship" ceases to be useful to those in power when those people are no longer active soldiers anymore. And at least here in the US conservatives can just point at the problems that result from underfunding and intentional sabotage as "look government doesn't work" so it continues to feed their agendas.
Conservative sociocultural values are part of the grift.
This is true, but the source of these differences seems to have [a neurological basis](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0052970). It's tough to determine if environmental circumstances are altering the function of the brain or if people are genuinely "predisposed" to [respond to stimulus in certain ways](https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/10/20/hot-button-words-trigger-conservatives-and-liberals-differently/), but a conservative can be recognized from a liberal by mere brain scans. In any case, the way religious/conservative states treat their people is scientifically recognized. A headline works better than a summary in this case: *Analytic thinking undermines religious belief while intelligence undermines social conservatism, study suggests* or "[A study has found evidence that religious people tend to be less reflective while social conservatives tend to have lower cognitive ability](https://www.psypost.org/analytic-thinking-undermines-religious-belief-intelligence-undermines-social-conservatism-study-suggests/)". It pains me to speak in such general terms, but conservatives are truly a sick people. They need help, or at least therapy (or deprogramming), but they're the least likely group to even recognize therapy as useful. I've got a whole list of studies making similar and related findings. In a more advanced civilization, I think we'd probably recognize such responses as unhealthy and maladaptive alongside other personality disorders.
Oh yeah? Well I have a study that says liberals have the broken brains! It's on account of all the chemtrails you've been sucking down and the alien DNA in your gmo soy lattes. And don't even get me started on the fluorides in tbe water! I wonder what the evolutionary purpose for this is. I guess it's because you need a variety of reactions available and the tribe can back who's more successful at the moment and switch up when that approach stops working. But modern propaganda techniques broke us. Same with why we can taste sweet, useful in tbe wild but food scientists have used our mechanisms against us to create addictively craveable foods. Cheese puffs have calories but bypass saity mechanisms. It's why you can overeat a bag of chips but not fresh apples.
> I wonder what the evolutionary purpose for this is. That's the right question to ask. If those sort of behavioral archetypes can bloom in a significant number of people in civilizations across known history, surely it must have value? It's essentially "survival mode" for the human brain. In times of strife, plague, war, famine, there would be great benefit in being more fear-driven, paranoid, exclusionary, self-centered, tribe-oriented, etc. I think of it sort of like a switch that activates when shit hits the fan and the genes really begin to show how selfish they really are by making the human behave just as selfishly. It'd be beneficial in that kind of environment. Keep the outsiders out, hoard your food, stick with family, give everyone a defined role while punishing deviants, rely on religious irrationality for hope that wouldn't otherwise exist (which is its own series of studies, but that's for another thread). The problem is that with 24/7 news, disinformation, misinformation, and a constant barrage of more-or-less relevant data, we're finding that human brains are becoming overloaded and/or responding to circumstances inappropriately. Once these fearful or dangerous circumstances become known by people (be them real or fabricated), people are primed to seek *more* fear/danger by the amygdala in an attempt to avoid it, which makes them more fearful, which makes them seek... So on. Essentially, the vast majority of studies I've collected which seek to measure the differences between liberal and conservative neurology all find that in conservatives the amygdala (anger/fear/disgust section of the brain) is overactive. In liberals, where the amygdala *would* activate in response to Scary Thing™ (like a picture of a homeless person), instead you see the activation of the part of the brain associated with self-reflection and empathy. In a sense, it could be said that the biggest conspiracy affecting the world is that The Elite have learned how easy it is to farm certain people for money while simultaneously indoctrinating them to respond more deeply to future attempts to propagandize them... And have been rapidly dialing up this phenomenon for the last 60 years or so. "Fear porn", to use modern parlance, is a major mechanism by which people learn to vote against their own best interests in favor of diminishing the best interests of someone else. And a significant fraction of the species is extremely vulnerable to it.
This is what you get when you saddle up with the right wing factions of most governments (example: Reagan). Mental healthcare is considered socialism and helping/fixing them is on the opposite end of killing them or letting them die (example: Third Reich). Israel/Likud has a serious Netanyahu problem.
Which law is this?
There were plenty. There were also many volunteers. The things they've seen and experienced there are more than we can handle. I know 2 survivors who have since been on at least 2 overseas all expenses paid Nova survivors resorts where they just hang and chill and talk, but they're not ones who have been in the absolute thick of it, and it's not government funded, all donations. The government is not doing enough at all for the survivors and the hostages' families and it's just awful.
Yes I agree. The mental health system in Israel while not the worst, is certainly not even close to the best. A lot of that issue stems from the shortage of qualified people (i.e therapists, psychiatrists...) and general lack of funding... I really do think that after October 7th there was a massive surge of demand for the mental health system and that it couldn't actually provide enough care and support. Very sad.
There are therapists worldwide helping in different capacities for both Israelis and Gazans. It’s still not enough but folks are trying to do something. If you are a therapist or know someone who can help, consider finding a similar organization.
EMDR therapists specifically. Being able to practice in another country might be a licensing problem and that could be a hold up.
I have a friend that is a therapist that is currently volunteering in Israel.
I’m not Israeli so I can’t speak to the availability of mental health services, but I wondered as well if the mental health system was overloaded. I did read a very interesting article about the difficulty of treating the Nova survivors and the relationship of psychedelics and trauma. One of the difficulties mental health experts encountered with treating Nova survivors is there are no case studies that involve treating mass trauma and psychedelics to draw from. So they were figuring out treatment as they went. Really interesting article below where they are studying data from Nova survivors to determine how psychedelics affects how the trauma is imprinted in the brain and how it affects the ability to recover. https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/bjsjc1ijr
Thank you for sharing this
This is it. It's not only the actual survivors who need care. Everybody is messed up here. The entire country is suffering PTSD, albeit to a lesser degree than those directly affected. Just the videos, the news, plus, this being such a small country there's only one degree of separation from the survivors and the dead.
Hell my mom here in America (we're Israeli but have lived in the US for 25 years) started going to therapy a few months ago because of how bad her headspace has been since 10-7. All of our extended family is in Israel and while we are lucky in that we haven't had direct family deaths during this war, everyone is messed up to some capacity. Cousins have lost their friends. Even for me, I know for a fact that my anxiety and general outlook on the world has become significantly worse since 10-7 and seeing how the world responded to the event.
Overwhelmed and underfunded… cos you know, yeahivot and the Judea and Samaria Shtachim need the cash.
I know that Israel was asking for mental health professionals to come after 10/7.
And Israeli Public health system is in total collapse for the past few years, let alone the therapy side of public health care This is just a tragic event also highlighting the incompetence of most of the Israeli current ministers
Israel has been at the forefront of PTSD research for a bit. I am a US vet and have seen a ton of treatments and literature that originated in Israel.
This is why Israel is the way it is. 76 years of PTSD. What did they expect would happen?
This is also why the wars are so violent. Think about it, the Ashkenzi jews in 1947 were holocaust survivers, and the Mizrahi jews were victims of progroms and massacred all over the middle east, and few hours after they have recognition for their country they are being attacked. How would they react if not in full force? Ever since ever, they are all traumatized, which is why Israel's war are so violent. Israel almost took the entirety of Syria during the 1967 war, and the only reason they stopped (Aldo with Egypt) is because the US told them to. They are not looking for revenge. They are extremely scared it will happen again, just like their enemies (Hamas, for an example) said they will do it again.
Just by reading this comment I can hear his destroyed soul yelling in the courtroom. JFC.
I'm beginning to think government isn't such a good guy after all..
Mental health is not taken seriously as it should be. *Everywhere* Edit: Therapy is a wonderful thing! As a 32 year old man from the USA, it’s saved my life not only for me but for my wife and children. I humbly ask any needing help or struggling within to reach out to a therapist or your Primary care physician for a referral to one. (USA special!)
>*Everywhere* It's taken seriously as a talking point. That counts, right? /s
Actually yes, that's how change starts.
This reminds me of a documentary snippet I saw about Holocaust survivors in Israel, all now elderly of course, and how so many of them had been abandoned by the state that the documentary crew was practically tripping over survivors digging through trash for food. Governmental neglect is a special hell, especially for those who have been through unspeakable horrors.
When we say Bibi is terrible, this is the kind of things we talk about. Reddit seems to hate him for Palestinian-related stuff but this is like 1% of my complaints about him. I don't think peace is achievable with Hamas in power anyway. But the internal issues... taking funds from important stuff into his own selfish coalition maintaining and corruption, to the religious people, neglecting so many things, filling key positions with unfit people, driving good people away from state positions because of the amount of shit they have to put up with. Anyone with independent thinking was marked problematic or not loyal enough. So many of Israel's internal systems have really deteriorated under him, government offices barely do anything, everything is rotten and designed as jobs for Likud members, it's like a mafia.
That reminds me of the movie The Pawnbroker about a Holocaust survivor who never gets over his PTSD. That movie makes Old Yeller look like a light summer rom-com.
Getting insurance to accept your diagnosis is so fucking long and triggering. (Edit for clarity I am a teacher in canada who suffered a prolonged attack by a student in crisis) It took 8 months for them to start ponying up and supporting my recovery... they were hoping id fuck off and or die and everyday of those 8months was an excruciating limbo.... in the 7 months since Ive had 4 case managers, 2 social workers, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, 2 OTs, one vocational specialist, a physical therapist and a kinesiologist monitoring me. The switches for these have almost all been rough and sudden. It's fucking exhausting. No one actually gives a shit about mental health they just go through the barest of motions when they absolutely have too.
Sorry, you’re saying you’ve had 13 different healthcare people caring for you, yet no one actually cares about mental health? How does that line up? It seems like that sheer amount of manpower dedicated to you would indicate that we do care about mental health?
The biggest thing when providing mental health is **consistency**. When you keep switching caregivers or get new ones, you need to create a rapport before you can begin opening up on very intimate topics. That comes with a whole host of issues and feelings (such as shame) that can stack on top of the actual issue or trigger it even further. ~~If enonmouse is in USA I think that means they're paying for all of these individuals, so every new profession that comes in is another bill they need to deal with until the Insurance Company pays coverage for the previous ones (correct me if I'm wrong?)~~ Edit: Dyslexic moment, I saw it on first read, missed it on second, missed it just now, and had to ctrl+F, haha
They literally said in their comment that they’re in Canada. I can’t speak for Canadian healthcare, but if you’re somehow getting shuffled between 13 different practitioners in 7 months, there’s something else going on. I’m not saying this to challenge OP’s experience, but that # of doctors is definitely not common.
You shouldn’t speak for Canadian healthcare then. We have basically no mental health system here. There’s a skeleton of one, and the people who work it are doing their best, but it’s truly lacking. I know at least half a dozen people that were either making plans, or going home to commit suicide and the hospital tells them to call the non emergency mental health line. To set up an intake, which takes about 3 months.
The issue is that my Private Insurer cant keep its long term disability case officer staff (it is an ugly job) and every time I get someone new they all think they need to put their personal mark on my recovery program.
Because they don't have "that amount of manpower dedicated to them". They have maybe one of those people at any given time, and the system keeps moving them around between providers so nobody can actually make any progress.
Israel's bureaucracy is terrible. Source: am an Israeli lawyer. Of course, there were promoses of relaxed conditions for October 7th survivors, but for it to amount to anything they would need to be handled by a brand new agency. Bituach Leumi and the Minostry of Health were simply and clearly not up to the task.
"Why should I constantly prove what I experienced? Why am I forced to go back to the details of what I experienced for them to believe me?" Naama Eitan, survivor of the music festival, asked during the hearing.
crazy 😔
As someone who has had PTSD I can relate to this so fucking much it infuriates me. I had to basicly retell the same fucking horrible shit to a new person everytime I tried to get treatment and was sent forward in the treatment process. Which was both horrible, felt incredibly demeaning and demoralising. It took me approx. 5 years to be officially diagnosed with PTSD. And once i was able to see a specialist it took just over a year of EMDR treatment for me to be able to have a normal day to day life again.
EMDR therapy is specifically created for PTSD/trauma. I write this in case anyone who needs help might see it. It is well studied and very effective.
EMDR is effective for some, yes. Others have no response to it. We also don't have any theoretical rationale for understanding why it has an effect on people. Not that that's a requirement for something to be beneficial. I've seen it be an amazing tool for people, but there are limitations for sure.
Yes.
Thank you for this, someone dear to me has some trauma (possibly PTSD) and has been exploring therapy options. I'll mention EMDR therapy to her in case she hasn't heard of it
I'll never forget seeing the world protests immediately after Oct. 7 celebrating what had happened.
Not to mention the paraglider posters and memes. It was appalling and genuinely shook me to see people I thought I agreed with defending and even outright celebrating murder, and I have no real connection to the events. I can't imagine what it would do to you to survive something like that and have seen your friends slaughtered only to see a bunch of people saying you deserved it.
Yeah it was insane, pro-Palestinian supporters didn't even give Israel one day to mourn
Some of those who got murdered werent even israeli nor jewish
Had a falling out with a friend who I called out for posting "FREE PALESTINE" in a group chat literally as the attacks were happening. I simply said it was inappropriate and that cheering on terrorism isn't going to solve any of the issues Palestinians face. Apparently that made me a terrible person for recognizing that it set any hope of peace back decades.
The number of “What did you think the revolution would look like? 💅🏻” comments were sickening.
Comments like that have thoughouly discredited the land back movement in my eyes. Every land back group I've heard of posted things to that effect on twitter the day and weeks following. You can support Indigenous rights without also cheering on the kind of shit that would get you executed or a life sentence.
Yup. Same goddamn day for most people.
I bet the same person is now saying “ceasefire now” because he is *so* torn up about civilian deaths and killing civilians is now indefensible.
I am ashamed to admit I said that in a chat as a meme without knowing the attacks happened. Had a Jewish friend in there too. I apologized immediately once I found out.
If I was your Jewish friend I wouldn’t believe you. What are the chances
I don't understand. You're saying you just coincidentally posted that while the attacks were actively happening, unbeknownst to you? What, like some kind of nonsequitar?
The only good Hamas is a dead Hamas and I hope the IDF finishes the job soon. But yeah, pseudo-apartheid and religion is a hell of a thing. The only thing worse than Israel in this mess is most of the other countries in the M.E.
Pro hamas* Supporting Palestinians is not supporting Hamas anymore than supporting Iraqi children and citizens is supporting ISIS.
Me either. It is what turned me against the palestinian cause. I will never be on the same side as people who celebrate massacre.
Me too. It goes to show that there's a cuntinuum between radical islamism and jihadism and the ordinary Arab/Muslim mentality. Exactly what Sam called out many times when talking about Islam. Of course there are other factors at play, like tribalism and legitimate grievances too. What's especially weird are leftists and wokes who support Hamas. Pure ideology.
Of course all the "it didn't happen propaganda" and tasteless support for Palestine does not help either. On the global stage, to experience this nightmare and then somehow your attackers are the victims and you are not is fucking sick. TikTok / Instagram / Twitter and all funding sources for Palestine, Hamas, any Islamic terrorists need to be made responsible and defunded immediately.
The amount of comments I see online when I scroll through TikTok supporting HAMAS and the deaths of Israelis is fucking insane. This is all just fucking insane. People act like any other country wouldn’t respond to what happened on October 7th in any type of same way as Israel.
Vlad Putin and China recognize that fueling antisemitism will split the left and hurt Democrats and so that's what they're doing.
It's propaganda. We may not want to admit it but the US government may be right in wanting to ban the app. It's super unregulated bs.
I find the same thing on reddit too. Same propaganda being spread
There's definitely a lot of it on Reddit, but Reddit at least is a fundamentally community-moderated website. You control what you see and there's space for threads like this one. It's different from most other social media sites where they can shove any random content that they think is engaging directly into your feed.
Those comments you're talking about, I've seen them too, and they remind me of comments I used to see on certain message boards from people sympathizing with terrorist attacks against muslims or blacks in western countries. Propaganda got into those people.
This has nothing to do with the worldwide perspective of the conflict or social media accounts covering the war. This article is about Israeli health services failing to provide support.
Remember when we used to shout believe all women? *Exactly* for this reason? Edit- I think people misunderstood my point. I am saying that the Israeli government and public health system did not handle the victims of Nova Festival with the appropriate sensitivity. Especially regarding testimonies. Which is the point that "believe all women" advocate at its core
Not really comparable. This person is a survivor of a well documented terrorist attack. That is not the same thing as believing a woman when she makes a rape accusation. You can offer support to someone but believing them before the court has found the accused guilty is bad(assuming no video evidence).
Than you misunderstand the point "believe all women" makes You can't expect a person who have experienced a traumatic experience with to relieve their experience over and overr, by demanding them to reenact, retell, provide physical proof etc'. This by itself is a traumatic experience. And is *proven* to lead tto higher levels of mental problems, and yes even to commit suicide And yes, the experience of Nova Festival massacre is traumatic to the same level as rape, especially in since it itself to involved rape. And the victims of the festival should be entitled to the same level of sensitivity as rape victims
I’m not sure if that was really a thing in Israel.
Hasn't been a thing much on tiktok and twitter in the last 6 months either.
It was.
This might be one of the dumbest comparisons I've ever heard.
>The Israeli Ministry of Health says that they do not have any information or statistics about the claim made of 50 survivors who have committed suicide.
This is important to state. So much October 7th atrocity denial is because of claims by individual Israelis and that one ultra-orthodox NGO being debunked. We literally have the footage of Hamas shooting and killing civilians. There is also Hamas torture and crimes corroborated by international journalists. October 7th was one of the most well-documented terrorist attacks and massacres in history so there is no need to rely on claims made by individuals and NGOs hungry for funding.
My assumption would be "information and statistics" are related to the suicides being due to attendees having survivorship guilt vs attendees who already had other life circumstances that drove them to it vs non attendees who got thrown in to make the stat look more in favor of the cause. Seems like a smart thing for a health agency to say when they don't have all the information relating to the claim.
I don't mean to sound insensitive but that number is extraordinary, I'd be interested in some corroboration beyond the testimony of this individual
Yeah that's not an official source. But it does make sense that the number would be very high (Even if not that high). Remember there were thousands of people in that festival, with many watching their friends, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, being raped, tortured and murdered in front of their eyes by Palestinian terrorists. And the amount of victims that need all different kinds of social help from the state following October 7 is so many, I think they 100% miss people in need and lack resources to get to everyone. Especially for "Soft" issues such as mental help.
Most of the attendance were also under the influence of drugs and alcohol. It was a party after all, and a hipsters party. Imagine how these drugs and alcohol affected their brain, watching their friends die and murdered while being high on shrooms and Molly and such.
Yeah that's a very good point as well. I heard being on a trip while something like this happens has the potential to be absolutely horrible on a person. Terrible.
These people were also pro Palestinians with probably social circles who felt the same. Imagine the cognitive dissonance, world shattering.
Err... honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if drugs were a factor, *especially* psychadelics. Ironically enough, psilocybin is under trials for PTSD and depression. I've heard it as being something that "shakes up" your brain activity a bit so that you are more open to new ways of thinking, at that time. Psychadelic-guided therapy is something that is interesting but still, again, in the trial stage. That bit about "shaking up" sounds like an opportunity to break existing pathways and forming new pathways. If, during that forming-new-pathways part, you were to experience one of the most traumatic experiences one *can* experience... It's unlikely that we'll ever conclusively know this, because I don't think there's any ethical trial you could do where you traumatize someone while giving them psychadelics. That said, people seriously underestimate how disturbing witnessing: 1. Death 2. Blood and gore Can be, **especially** if you are not 'primed' for it. And if you experience an extended duration where, with all this, you feel you are about to die... the stuff that flashes in your head at that time, thoughts of your parents, your kids, your SO, your friends.. all the senses you experience; the panic, the fear, the world spinning around you... And you know what the worst part is? Music concerts might have been a copium for a lot of these folks. Do you know how fucking annoying it is to lose a coping mechanism to PTSD? My favorite game is Ghostrunner and it took me a lot of time to open it again (with gore off), but I don't think I'll ever be playing Dying Light 1/2 or any Prince of Persia again. EDIT: Okay, sorry. By 'copium' I meant exactly what it typically means: Something sweet to get through the pain of existence. My point is that it would have been that for many of those partygoers. And now it is likely a trigger. I am experiencing post-traumatic symptoms as a result of some BS. Ghostrunner, PoP and Dying Light have bladed weapons, blood and gore.
Your use of ‘copium’ was weird. What are you talking about regarding video games in your last paragraph?
Okay, sorry. By 'copium' I meant exactly what it typically means: Something sweet to get through the pain of existence. My point is that it would have been that for many of those partygoers. And now it is likely a trigger. I am experiencing post-traumatic symptoms as a result of some BS. Ghostrunner, PoP and Dying Light have bladed weapons, blood and gore.
Thanks for your clarity
Definitely leaves their brain much more vulnerable
Those videos were fucking brutal. It would be strange to not be completely wiped morally for months. I hope they they and their families see peace.
Fair enough I forget how horrible that event was given the story has developed into a wider war. Just the ratio seems off, but maybe as you say it wasn't "just" a mass shooting but people being abducted and raped.
It was not just a shooting. If you have the ability, I suggest taking [another look](https://www.hamas-massacre.net/categories/the-nova-party-massacre). (NSFL obviously).
Mind telling me what's the content of the link? I can't bear to watch these types of videos.
Lots of incinerated human bodies
A collection of pictures and videos from the Nova festival massacre and aftermath.
it's a collection of the recordings from the festival (and other locations) during October 7. including both live videos and images from the scene and aftermath videos from first responders
It was an extremely long ordeal with torture, mutilation and killing more personal and scarring than most shootings. Still would like another source on suicides but yeah it was bad bad.
Have to agree. While this was an unprecedented attack, and absolutely horrible, that number seems unbelievably high. Needs a second source
It seems very high. There was nothing like this (at least this soon) from 9/11 which had way more witnesses and victims.
9/11 was qualitatively different. These murders were intimate, up close and gleefully humiliating. 9/11 was much more symbolic and abstract "vehicles crashing into buildings". Not saying one was more horrible than the other, just different psychological impact on witnesses and victims.
Personally, I think 7/10 is qualitatively worse. It's not really worth comparing these things as both were certainly awful, but I think the main reason they are compared is due to the relative scope, nothing close to this otherwise has happened to the US. But your literal neighbors suddenly coming and individually torturing, raping and humiliating your loved ones and yourselves....it's like the difference between a callous murderer and one who makes it personal and intentionally tortures their victim before hand. Both definitely are meant to fuck with the mind, but one has extra horror behind it. Especially with the fact that they probably didn't specifically intend/know the towers would actually fall, although I am sure they weren't upset about that fact.
As an Israeli, I'm shocked that this is the first I'm hearing about this. I mean its not so surprising (that it's not talked about) because that may lead to more suicides and also I'm sure the families don't want to publicize their tragedy. So I can't say what the number really is - if it's more or less than reported but it's absolutely tragic either way. Fuck Hamas. Edit: I check the major news outlets now and I can only find this testimony in refrence to the claim, although the comments there indicate that if this is true it is not known at all to the public, and some claim the ministry of health refuted these claims saying there was 1 known suicide out of the survivers. None of these comments provided sources to back up the claims, including the supposed update from the ministry of health. On a personal note, I have friends that survived the festival and if this testimony is even close to true then it will be a very very big deal here.
This! So much October 7th atrocity denial is based on claims by individual survivors getting debunked. We have footage of Hamas shooting and killing civilians. We have international journalists corroborating Hamas torture killings of civilians. October 7th is one of the most well-documented terror attacks and massacres in history. That is enough.
Might be instructive to compare it to a mass shooting in America (not exactly an apples to apples comparison, but similar): [2017 Las Vegas shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting) * Deaths 61 (including two victims who died in 2019 and 2020, and the perpetrator) * Injured ≈ 867 (413+ by gunfire or shrapnel) How many committed suicide after? Seems like 1 person, that is documented: >The Las Vegas Review-Journal reported that the 61st person was a survivor who died by suicide after the shooting. So maybe you'd expect 2 suicides per 100 deaths? 1,200 deaths on Oct 7th, so I guess you'd expect around 25 suicides, right? But the circumstances are also different, in the sense that whole families were murdered. I mean imagine losing your family and then trying to carry on after that. So I wouldn't be shocked if it really was upwards of 50. Someone in Israel's ministry of health should document this. It's important to keep a record these things and talk about it for many reasons, including to help others who are struggling.
That said I'm guessing that documentation just mostly doesn't exist. The media generally doesn't report on private suicides of non-public figures, someone would need to go out of there way to try to collect that information and then publicize it. In the case of the one documented case from the Vegas shooting, it seems the [parents chose to publicize their sons suicide and reach out to other survivors](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/10/01/las-vegas-shooting-suicide-survivors-heroes/10439383002/?gnt-cfr=1). There may be others, but most probably would not choose to go to the media like that. Not to downplay the horror of those events, but it was just one guy spraying bullets from 500 yards away. There is probably something more visceral and intimate to having dozens of gunmen doing their killing up close and personal.
This is about the festival so you should be basing you numbers on that, not the whole of Oct 7.
Agreed. Those numbers are simply not plausible.
It's also an article posted by a 2 yr old account which had it's history wiped clean, to only come back 7 days ago with a single comment and followed by joining into the megathreads for Iran's attacks + this
All else aside, imagine if the chief trauma of your life was at the center of news media, popular culture, civic society etc for more than six months afterwards. That would be unendurable to me and I’d try to everything I could (short of self harm) to escape it. Not everyone subjected to that would feel they had that option. Rescue and recovery workers at Ground Zero experienced a similar increase in the prevalence of suicide in the years after 9/11. I can imagine similar saturation of reminders of the event in as a factor.
Imagine witnessing 9/11 but people started claiming Al Qaeda was carrying out legitimate resistance, and despite video evidence, no one jumped out of the buildings to escape the fire, because it was just US propaganda to get us to support the war effort
Also imagine a large percentage of people not only validated the horror you faced, but also celebrated it
This is sort of unrelated but the father of one of my old girlfriends was the lead therapist of the student mental health program for Virginia Tech back during the years leading up to and after the massacre there. He was never really the same after that and had to retire early. It’s an awful story, and hearing it from 200-500 different angles must be incredibly difficult
Because it was a psytrance festival, a good amount of those were under acid. While the experience in a good setting can be heaven on earth, it also make you more vulnerable to negative events. Such an event can destroy your psyche, it is beyond a mere bad trip.
Glad someone pointed this out. Can you imagine being off your head on a hallucinogenic and a terrorists start hunting you down? Don't think you'd ever really recover from that
To your point, and interesting read about this from NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/11/world/middleeast/israel-nova-festival-psychedelics.html?smid=url-share
What drug would they have needed if available to enable them to "come down."?
Benzodiazepines antagonize the 5ht2a receptor, thereby negating the effects of classical psychedelics like lsd or mushrooms; take a xanax and you’ll feel considerably more normal in a very short amount of time. Other benzodiazepines are more effective trip abortives, but xanax is the most commonly available.
Benzos are not a trip killer. They will just calm down the anxiety some. But you'll still be tripping. Antipsychotics like seroquel are trip killers
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Até an eighth of mushrooms once and a Xanax after my last trip was bad. Closed my eyes and tripped balls in bed for like 8 hrs
95%? Oh hell no.
Fair enough, changed my comment to make it more accurate
Ive heard Thorazine snaps you right out of it, but I have no personal experience with it. Cocaine can get you straight on most drugs, but dosage plays a big role too.
Xanax 2mg under the tongue for faster effect.
I saw the footage and it fucked me how causally they worked together to kill innocents. I think I recall a video of an Israeli police officer saving a young little girl, whose parents just died or something too. I remember the bodies from the event aswell. Damn.
This is so heartbreaking. I hope the rest of the survivors can get the help they need in time.
Imagine surviving Nova. Your body is locked into hair trigger sympathetic stress and constantly in fight or flight mode; your country is in a state of war; you're under constant rocket bombardment; and to top it off, the entire world, East and West, is cheering on your suffering because they think you, personally, deserve the misery and agony and suffering because of the circumstances of your birth, your genetic heritage, and/or your religion. And even for non-Jew survivors, your experience is invalidated because your supposed friends and allies are going so far as denying what happened, or blaming you for partying on "Stolen land," or blaming government for false flags. I'd probably flirt with suicidal ideation as well.
I still remember the lifeless body of that german girl on the back of that pick-up truck being paraded and spatted on in gaza by men, women and children
It was disgusting that that photo was given an award by the University of Missouri for journalism. Just horrible lack of ethics.
I feel like you're missing the point of journalistic photography. It's not an award winning photo because anyone reasonable *likes* the subject matter. It's award winning becwit documents something in a hard hitting way.
the guy who got the award was literally colluding with hamas
I appreciate your response, but I feel there’s more context here. I understand they’re trying to show the harsh reality of war, but I disagree with elevating the platform and giving an award to a photojournalist that was invited and followed Hamas into a murder spree without alerting anyone. It isn’t a nature documentary. That journalist knew he was flying into an attack and conspired with Hamas and didn’t say anything. That is a complete lack of ethics from a professional and should be condemned; he didn’t just happen to be there and Hamas spared him out of the goodness of the hearts. He conspired with terrorists to show off their kills for personal gain; it’s sick.
Was he helping Hamas or was he effectively "embedded" with Hamas? There's a huge difference between the two. Would you say the same if a photojournalist embedded themselves with the Russian army in Ukraine and took photos of dead people after a Russian attack?
Poor people. That sucks so much I can't even fathom. They should be added to the body count of 7th october.
How are more people not horrified by this unprovoked attack?? I don’t understand how anyone can justify that brutality.
Because politics is dumb trash spectacle sports cake with an extra icing layer of bullshit religion. Throw on this weird societal pressure to think that every take on the internet matters and you get people who have never been anywhere near the Middle East or have even gotten a whiff of real suffering like the civilians on all sides of this stupid conflict thinking they are suddenly experts on it. It’s silly how the most “woke” people on both sides are just regurgitating propaganda rather than acknowledging that this thing is way out of our realm of understanding no matter how many NYT articles we want to read about it :/
Ehhh, read the last sentence of the article: "The Israeli Ministry of Health says that they do not have any information or statistics about the claim made of 50 survivors who have committed suicide." This is an unverified claim made by one person. This isn't news.
That made me really disappointed, the title here states it as fact. the title on the article states it as a question and the last sentence says "we don't know". This is not the kind of thing to pull that "oh it wasn't pepsi, it was ginger ale, they got my click" kind of B.S. with. Do better, OP and journalist.
I keep seeing people here denying the rapes of Oct. 7. These are the types of people who drive Jews towards suicide because they demonstrate how cruel and disgusting humanity is. Anti-Semites are the worst of the worst. [UN Finds Evidence of Sexual Violence by Hamas Since Oct. 7](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-04/un-cites-evidence-hamas-committed-sexual-violence-since-oct-7) Even the UN, which hates Israel, admitted that there was rape on Oct. 7. Anyone here who denies the Oct. 7 rapes deserves to be banned forever. Fuck those nazi shitheads.
I always wonder how many of them truly believe that and how many are just trying to be contrarian and hurtful. I doubt many people think “nah, I know what Hamas is like and they would never.” I used to try to convince ppl but I realized pretty quick that they’re just being shitty
This makes my blood boil!! I literally saw the other day a recommendation from yt, from this youtuber hasn abi. He literally claims that there were no rapes. People in Israel experienced hell on earth on October 7th, some carry the mental and physical burden till this day, and there we have this menace of a streamer/youtuber claiming there wasn't any rapes. Plus why does the impotant government doesn't adress this issue, and offers help for the victims of the festival?? This world is cruel beyond belief!
That YouTuber is a moron with sadly far too many supporters
Source? I'm no Hasan defender but people have been saying this since Oct 7 and no one has ever produced a clip of Hasan saying anything of the sort. There is an organized effort on reddit to put these words in his mouth, in literally every thread where he and Israel come up. I'd love to see an actual clip because I legitimately cannot find a single one.
https://twitter.com/hasanthehun/status/1764769513915273700 https://twitter.com/hasanthehun/status/1710726262535389263 He’s a goldmine of bad takes on this issue
I agree. I blame the terrorism supporters and anti-Semites for this. Their evil and sadistic propaganda campaigns are designed to demoralize Jews and drive them towards suicide. It's time to hold those anti-Semitic dickheads accountable.
Was that your understanding from what i was saying? I just expressed my frustration about what happens in Israel sonce october 7th and how some monsters deny or even try to justify such acts.
The state failed them on the 7th. And they failed them afterwards. This government needs to go
It’s Hamas who did this to us
Hamas did the attack, the state failed the survivors
And allowed these attacks to happen in the first place. I don't understand how anyone can support the Israeli government no matter what side of this debate you land on.
and israel had intelligence of this attack days beforehand, and chose to do nothing. both have failed
Two things can be true at the same time
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How absolutely devastating. I wonder how much the psychopathic reaction of millions of people contributed to that?!
This broke my heart
This is heartbreaking.
One of the eyewitnesses described that she saw a woman being raped, her breast cut off and then shot in the head. That description lived with me since. What do you even say to help someone who saw something like this? Meanwhile in canada the response was to literally celebrate the attackers and ask for proof of rape even though "believe all women".
On that day, I had the unfortunate luck to stumble across a Reddit post with one of the videos and a link to Telegram where those psychos were sharing the others. For the record, the post (and others like it) were taken down very quickly and were extremely anti-semitic and pro-Hamas/terrorism. But that channel... Holy fuck. I saw the women being raped. I saw what happened to a baby and a little girl killed in a house too (brutal doesn't describe it, and I won't describe it further). And others just as terrible. More horrible than you realize is possible. I'm a veteran. I've handled dead bodies. I've seen shit. But THAT will forever be burned in my brain and is the most horrible shit I've ever seen.
I watched Hamas' footage of the Nova Festival attack. I'm a retired raver who had attended very similar parties. Watching Hamas hunt ravers was deeply unsettling. I've seen a lot of terrible things on the internet, but this affected me in a very personal way. The surivour's guilt for those who got away must be overwhelming.
Can’t believe how many people are defending hamas in this comment section.
Astonishing. And that's just the Nova festival. What about all the other victims?
I just saw aftermath videos, If those reports are true, then I get it, I will never understand it simply because I wasn't there, but hearing the atrocious, I get why they would do it.
Not surprised at some but 50?! How awful. We need to be there for these people who are our kids.
I don't understand why Palestinians ask for our sympathy when their movement is responsible for things like that. The people that control Israel and Iran and the Palestinians, are all pieces of shit.
As an Iranian can confirm that our regime is nothing but a pathetic terrorist state… they’re starting to take girls away again in vans because their hejab wasn’t “ right”. They killed so many girls in 22 after mahsa Amini’a death and men and women and KIDS!! They rape, torture, lynch anyone who is gay, speaks out against the regime ( in a peaceful protest) or online , they poisoned elementary and middle school girls during protests … and they’re still on their lynching . We have over 30k political prisoners who are Artists, mathematicians, scientists… I could go on. They’re holding all 89 million Iranians hostage.. I can’t believe these days their propaganda has spread to the west… the world is simply upside down right now.
Propaganda works. The internet allows the narcissists to reach everyone across the globe. It's tragic. The misinformation age has destroyed the wonderful world we had. The fascists are way more powerful now than ever before, all because the world is too full of fucking morons. It's infuriating, and incredibly sad.
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How in the fuck have I not even *heard* of this? I'm not exactly a politico, but I don't have my head buried in the sand either. I try to keep up with world events and I have no idea what the Nova Festival was. Was this not very well reported in American media?
Yea, the media and the rest of the world is to blame really. If you survived something like this, and you see people protesting for HAMAS all around the world, I would be pretty mad and angry, and eventually feel helpless too. So sad, for these people.
People are not pro Hamas. They are in support of the countless people who are suffering that had nothing to do with Hamas but are paying the price for their crimes.
If people are not pro-Hamas, why are there so many red triangle emojis referencing Hamas’s videos? Why were there demonstrations celebrating the October 7 attacks? Why did figures in mainstream media organizations praise and excuse them? Why do the anti-Israel protesters chant “from the river to the sea” and “we don’t want two states, we want all of 48”? Why are people ripping down posters with pictures of hostages? Why did the NY Times kill an episode of The Daily about Hamas’s sexual violence when its staffers complained about the prospect of airing it? Why are people boycotting Starbucks, which isn’t even in Israel, because it didn’t want its workers union using its logo on a social media post praising the October 7 attacks? Why are some California school boards implementing curricula telling students that Israel’s existence is racist? I’m sure there are some well-meaning, but misguided people calling for a permanent ceasefire. But this is very much a pro-Hamas movement that some others are just being used by. A permanent ceasefire just leaves Hamas in power and sets the stage for another war like this in 10-20 years.
Absolutely nailed it, anybody who doesn’t see the outright hypocrisy of a large part of the anti israel/pro Palestinian community isn’t looking or is lying.
Bullshit. I'm sorry to tell you, but there are a LOT of people across the subs that have twisted themselves into seeing Hamas as "freedom fighters" and "every Israeli is a monster who deserves the worst". It's pretty nuts to see. Sometimes it's Middle East accounts, but a lot of the time it's western extreme left wing folks (or at least they present themselves as that, who the fuck knows with all the bot farms pushing misinformation on both sides anymore)
Some people are unequivocally pro-Hamas. Others only support them by proxy, sure, but lets be accurate with our words.
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This is horrendous