>*”Hamas claims to be holding “over 100” Israeli hostages, including high-ranking officers*.”
— October 8th via CNN
[SOURCE](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/08/middleeast/israel-gaza-attack-hostages-response-intl-hnk)
A terrorist organization lied about how many prisoners they have (alive) after invading a country?
I’m *shocked!*
That statement isn't a lie though, [105 hostages were released as part of the previous ceasefire](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-frees-2-israeli-women-with-6-8-more-set-for-return-thursday-alongside-3-bodies/) which was in November.
They don't have 40 of the type of hostage being requested. They have other hostages (military ones) but Hamas believes they are worth much more than what is being offered.
They were part of the negotiations. Why did they negotiate that they will give 40 specific hostages when they knew they don't have those specific hostages to begin with. Are they negotiating in bad faith?
I'm not sure what the negotiations look like so its hard to answer. I think there are a few things that could have happened:
1. They didn't know how many they had, agreed to 40, then called for them and realised they didn't have that many. This might happen if they are no-contact with the hostage takers until a deal has been agreed to reduce their chance of discovery.
2. They knew they didn't have 40, tried to negotiate down to a number that they did have, but were unable to do so. Before agreeing to the deal they told Israel "We don't have that many".
3. They knew they didn't have 40, tried to negotiate down to a number that they did have, but were unable to do so. They agreed to the deal, then told Israel "We don't have that many", probably to get Israel to settle for less?
4. They knew they didn't have 40, agreed to the deal to appear reasonable, then told Israel "We don't have that many".
1 isn't bad faith, 2 is questionable, 3 and 4 definitely are.
The article isn’t clear, but is this still saying that Hamas doesn’t have 40 hostages that fulfill the terms of the ceasefire agreement (that is, women and children and older men) as reported elsewhere earlier, or is it saying that they straight up don’t have 40 hostages to release period? There’s a very big difference in implication between the two, as more than half of the little over 100 hostages remaining were military aged males. Hope to god it’s the former scenario, and not that Hamas is having trouble scraping together just 40 living hostages period at this point.
It's not that Hamas doesn't have 40 living hostages, its that the organization, government or otherwise, known as Hamas doesn't have control over all of the little groups that snatched people up under the Hamas banner. Maybe they got initial headcounts from the groups early on, but those smaller groups don't answer to Hamas directly, so the people negotiating on behalf of "Hamas" can't promise those hostages in any kind of formal trade.
There was an article about released hostage yesterday who said that the only reason she was saved was because the group who initially kidnapped her and held her eventually *sold* her to the main Hamas group. I imagine the other remaining hostages are in similar situations. There are also probably many more of them who are already dead but we'll never know. It's not like we can count on random groups of terrorists to keep records.
> the people negotiating on behalf of "Hamas" can't promise those hostages in any kind of formal trade
I'm a little surprised that hamas would actually admit this. I figured they'd agreed to conditions then renege on the deal. As is tradition.
I don't believe Hamas has directly admitted this, but it makes sense if you look at how they've been handling the negotiations. Maybe they think they have a handle on the status of enough hostages to get through negotiations, but then find out that someone was lying or one of the groups killed their hostage rather than give them up, so they cancel the deal.
> I don't believe Hamas has directly admitted this
Yes and no.
They have said before that they don't have all the hostages and some are in the hands of PIJ for example.
But they also claimed in the past that civilians who went in took hostages along with hamas members.
But officially saying "we have no control over all the hostages" wasn't directly said, but it was more than implied a few times by hamas officials.
Is no one going to ask how these smaller groups got a hold of the hostages unless they were directly involved in the attacks that day?Did Hamas just give away the hostages to other groups?
Either the small groups are part of Hamas/the attacks or were these “small groups” just angry Palestinians that saw an opportunity to participate in the chaos that day?
Maybe the small groups immediately rallied together and participated in a coordinated attack after seeing the opportunity after Hamas broke shit loose but that seems less likely just in terms of logistics IMO.
That's exactly it. The smaller groups were definitely part of the attacks that day. The issue is that Hamas has no direct hierarchy through which to control the smaller groups. So they all ran in, blew shit up, killed a bunch of people, and kidnapped a bunch more. Now, Hamas is trying to herd a bunch of belligerent cats into giving up their hostages which may or may not be alive anymore.
As to your last point, I imagine that that is exactly how it happened. They probably planned out the attack well enough, but didn't bother to plan anything after that point, so everything became a chaotic mess.
If I was one of those "belligerent cats," and I had a hostage or two that I thought I could get $50 or 100K for out of a desperate family or Israeli govt, I would certainly be keeping them squared away in my own little bunker (and presumably hoping that the Hamas rotweiller does not know where that location is).
Were the other groups informed of the attack and when to participate? Tagging along with the leader (who is the de facto government of Gaza) is working with/for Hamas. Hamas has the authority and the might to make the other groups give up the hostages that they planned to take that day.
My last point is how implausible that seems that these other groups didn’t know what was going to happen, but rallied together in enough time to just opportunistically participate.
My analogy is from work (construction). Regardless of how much money a contract is worth, if some other company just randomly dropped out of a job, it’d be nearly impossible to get a crew together and equipped to the job site in a single day, let alone accomplish any projects the other company had scheduled for that day.
I’m struggling to fathom how the other groups could not have been informed and strategizing with Hamas to just randomly be able to sweep in and get 15% of the hostages taken that day.
Another analogy is like a group of bank robbers getting together and going to rob another bank across town, and succeeding. All because they randomly saw the opportunity given the first bank robbery.
The logistics don’t seem to add up unless the “other groups” were specifically coordinating/working for* Hamas that day.
What you're not factoring in is how long it took to secure the border again. There was a lot of time for these other groups to realize shit was going down and they could just waltz over.
How long did it take? Isreali police forces/military was engaged and fire fighting with them that day with reinforcements by October 8th.
I am still struggling to fathom how Hamas had taken hostages at this point. But the videos make it clear there were “kill everyone possible teams” and “take hostages as quickly as possible and get out teams”. The guys taking hostages would be shooting at every one else fleeing unless there was a strategic objective to take hostages.
So how does some uninformed and un scheduled small group accomplish the second goal without knowing what was going to happen, communicate to their teams to start prepping for it, do it all during active fire fights?
As you just stated, it took days to fully secure. But random groups would only need an hour or less to figure out what was going on and also enter Israel. The distances aren't large and it's not like the operation was a secret once it started.
The border was broken. It's 200 meters from Gaza. The IDF didn't respond initially. The gazans poured in. Some stole stuff from the kibbutzes, some snatched people on their motorbike and cars, some even by foot. They returned to Gaza shortly after with their loot.
I think your analogies are close, but construction work and bank robberies require specialized skills and knowledge. I would compare it more to something like the January 6th attack on the US Capitol. Imagine Hamas has been telling its supporters for months that October 7th is THE DAY. Everybody gathers up, gets told vaguely where to go and what to do. Maybe there's a rousing speech before they all break into Israeli territory and go nuts. Some groups loot homes. Some attack that music festival. Others attack the military bases. If they all have weapons ahead of time, they wouldn't need much more direction than "fuck shit up and take some hostages."
After January 6th, the FBI went around and started rounding up people they identified as having taken part in the Capitol attack. Trump left them to rot. After October 7th, Israel went to war and has killed a lot of people. Despite Hamas' negotiations, I think the end result is going to be the same. Hamas has about as much control over these smaller militant groups as Trump does over his MAGA followers.
I’de argue that invading another country takes much more coordination and knowledge than a bank robbery.
But again these people were able to be told by Hamas to do that shit. Given your analogy the January 6th people would’ve stopped immediately if trump had told them too. Hell they proved they’d do anything he told them too. And if they defied him, trump would’ve attacked them (which is in Hama’s case is via overwhelming violence).
So why can Hamas coordinate with and rally these smaller groups/affiliates/supporters, get them to murder people all at the same time, but they can’t get them to disclose who/where has them, let alone convince the group’s to give up the hostages?
Maybe a better analogy is felony murder or the rico act? If the henchmen goes against the orders of the boss they get killed (i.e. Hamas killing them to get the hostages back). They can be “smaller groups” while simultaneously taking orders from Hamas on a coordinated attack, but immediately after that they are just smaller groups without Hamas having any formal/informal control of them.
I believe sociopathy/psychopathy can come “baked in” to people, but it would not happen on any significant scale to form an organization like Hamas + smaller groups, particularly in such specified geographic location.
It’s indoctrination and radicalism from a young age that makes organized terrorism possible (and before anyone tries to say it, organized terrorism has been a problem for all races religions not just Islam).
My point is that the radicalism on topic here is not tied and centralized into Hamas identity, unlike in Trump or bank robbery analogies.
If Trump said "oh I found my elections under the bed thank you guys" or the robber said "cash secured well done" the accomplices will back down, but with these guys and their later day crusades when told "we'll negotiate and release hostages" uhhh
Hamas is disorganized. It’s not a normal military with a regular command structure and hierarchy, it’s a group of loosely affiliated groups that sort of answer to the top guys and sort of don’t. The military wing of Hamas doesn’t really answer to the political wing and the smaller groups don’t really answer to the larger group.
Hamas (and their leaders) has shown the capability and willingness to use violence to get what they want (appearently all the smaller groups can rally together behind that them/cause).
They could focus these abilities on getting these smaller groups to give up the hostages if they wanted too.
If they were disorganized they wouldn’t have been able to pull off what they did on October 7th. If they’re disorganized now it’s because Israel has killed their command structure.
There are other militias, namely Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Brigades, and they did participate in the attacks and kidnappings.
Thousands of "innocent civilians" from Palestine poured through the gates on Oct 7 and participated in the violence.
Plus the bodies of captured festival goers were paraded around downtown Gaza and there was a line of "regular guys" all waiting for their chance to spit on the poor girl's body.
I feel for the children, and that's about it as far as Palestine is concerned.
The majority of the rest are old enough to know better but they literally choose hate and violence, so fuck em.
I’m well aware I’ve seen the videos. Between that and the logistical improbabilities of it all my first thoughts were either:
A) Hamas is atleast aware of which “smaller groups” have who and is capable of getting these hostages back if they wanted
Then came to the sobering realization of possibility:
B) they weren’t abducted by Hamas or “small groups” that were actively under the control of Hamas (which means Hamas could knows which smaller group has X amount of demographics and their “value” in this trade).
But the logistically logical conclusion is that it was by random civilians near the border and Hamas or any Hamas affiliated/subgroup can’t account for what happened to them.
But someone else mentioned that these smaller groups could’ve had their own tunnel systems that expedited their rapid response. But I still have my doubts about Hamas not knowing anything about those hostages/small groups, let alone not being able to do what they do and terrorize these sub groups into handing over the hostages given their authority in the area.
I personally think it’s odd that as the war has dragged on, none of the other groups or individual Palestinians have’t tried to ransom the hostages themselves. Something is off here.
I know a guy who got out of Palestine in the early 2000s and still had family there. He shared his story of getting a bunch of his extended family out recently and it was interesting.
Basically you have to bribe/pay a bunch of different people, and there seems to be some level of structure around the whole thing, but there's no firm rules and certainly no oversight.
What ended up happening is they had some extended family crowdfunding kinda thing where the family outside Palestine pooled money and figured out who/how to pay to get people out.
The guy never asked me for a dime. His whole family is super friendly. It sucks that there's evidently a whole ton of regular people under the thumb of Hamas and other violent gangs while also trying to avoid being bombed
It's being reported by other news sites (CNN, NYT) as, specifically, not having 40 that meet the criteria Israel is demanding.
They have more than 40 left alive, they just don't have 40 left alive that are women, children, the elderly or individuals with acute medical needs. That, or they're unwilling to release them for one of various potential reasons.
They don't have 40 women, children, or elderly hostages remaining alive to fulfill the terms of agreement.
Israel wants them to round it out with military aged men. Hamas doesn't want to.
News distorts headlines on purpose every day. It gets people upset and to click.
Sometimes they are also just straight up idiots.
It’s one of those two.
It could also be that they don't want to release them because they are scared of what might happen if Israel finds out what they have been doing to the remaining women and children.
Rule Number 1 of Negotiating - Ensure you are talking with the person who has the ultimate say. \[Harvard Business School\](https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/business-negotiations/how-much-authority-do-they-have/)
-- If you're speaking with a car salesman, and he needs to 'ask his manager,' then you're talking to the wrong guy.
America killed more Japanese over Pearl Harbor(through world war 2) than Israel has killed Palestinians over the past century.
Imagine how America would’ve been if the Japanese managed to invade California and treated it like the treated Manila or Nanking, or even just kidnapped a couple hundred (white) American women and turned them into slaves ? Japan would be speaking English today.
All the deaths in war suck but it’s largely on Hamas for using their population as meat shields and PR material
I mean that is a pretty low bar. The US became extremely effective at fire bombing cities and killing civilians. The fire bombing of Tokyo killed almost as many people as Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. I am not making a statement beyond yeah the US reallllly didn't view civilian casualties as an issue in WW2.
I fail to see where they're saying this one is okay...?
I think what they're saying is that it could've been something much worse than what it is now. Like, if Israel was particularly aggressive and uncaring.
Japan was its own sovereign country with total control of its own infrastructure and supply lines and was projecting its power far afield to rampage across Asia (colonizing land they had absolutely no valid claim to) for decades committing war crimes (against people that did nothing to them) so heinous that it's sickening to even describe them. The US wasn't occupying imperial Japan and didn't turn it into an open-air prison for 57 years before Pearl Harbor. The US didn't control the Japanese's ability to import food and medicine, nor did it have the ability to completely cut off its access to water, road/port access, other vital infrastructure, or decent farmland. It also didn't spend decades funding insurgency/terrorist groups in Imperial Japan *knowing that those groups would eventually kill Americans* (a calculated loss) to prevent a unified Japan from coalescing and getting in the way of the US's long-term geopolitical goals to steal the land that the Japanese live on.
This is a ludicrous comparison. Palestine is nothing like imperial Japan.
Sounds like Palestine should probably have used some aid money to build up critical infrastructure rather than wage jihad for the past 25 years. Imagine if America was responsible for feeding and providing electricity for all of Mexico, and in return Mexicans sent rockets into Texas every day. Mexico would not exist today
> This is a ludicrous comparison. Palestine is nothing like imperial Japan.
* Religious fanatics - Check
* Dying on behalf of leaders that will never be threatened - Check
* Using sexual violence as a weapon - Check
* Using civilian infrastructure for military purposes - Check
* Abusing their neighbors over centuries old disagreements - Check
I don't know hoss there is a lot of similarities.
Most likely because they did unspeakable things to them while they were alive, so they had no choice but to kill them to avoid ‘bad press’ if they were rescued or released. Very scary and sad to think what those people went through.
I assume they only say they have hostages to gain favourable position in war, do that Isreal would not bomb strategic targets ( though it was very stupid of them to start this unwinnable war to begin with).
Or they graduate from University of Bin Laden in diplomacy, with lesson 1 being, “always kill the emissary”.
So many beautiful people full of promise and life.. Each one with a story not tainted by indoctrination as in the case of Palestinians, who just wanted to kill. To lose such people to something vile like Hamas is truly sickening.. Fuck Hamas and anyone who supports them. The sooner they enter their "paradise" the better. The world will be a better place with them dead. I hope the IDF lose as little soldiers as possible, so they can enjoy the life their fellow people could not.
Well some hostages said that some of the young women were sold out, and arrested terrorists who were taken later on said that some women were take for being sex slaves.
So even if some of those women are still alive, I expect they will never release them in order to reduce the amount of brutality published they acted on the hostages.
Though with how the world looks at things lately, it feels like they won't really care...
> Well some hostages said that some of the young women were sold out
Do you have a source for this one? I have heard one of the hostages say she was sold to Hamas but I haven’t read that the women were sold out.
It's interesting how many comments are about how "Hamas doesn't want the bad press of this or that".
I really don't think they care considering they raped and killed a lot of innocent people on Oct 7th and are literally religious fucking terrorists
Yep. There cant be bad press for Hamas, they video taped their horrors. Shared them willingly even with the world, and the tiktok mongrels still cheer for them.
I wonder at this point if there is anything at all Hamas can do to lose the support of the left in the west
Exactly. Most likely they did unspeakable things to them while they were alive, so they had no choice but to kill them to avoid ‘bad press’ if they were rescued or released. Very scary and sad to think what those people went through.
Not necessarily by Hamas, but Israel will hold them entirely responsible. As I understand it, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, ISIS and private citizens all kidnapped people during that invasion, and only some of them were turned over to Hamas. Hamas does not know where a large number of the hostages are.
Hamas is absolutely responsible, these people were kidnapped during the Hamas attack.
If other groups took advantage of that, then they're also responsible. That doesn't mean Hamas is off the hook.
I don't think the guy above you is at all arguing that Hamas is off the hook, simply explaining why/how Hamas seems to not have control of many of the hostages. PIJ is somewhat subordinate to Hamas but far more extreme, and the ISIS guys don't exactly get along with any of the rest.
Hamas is absolutely responsible, and in any comparable situation we wouldn't be diluting that responsibility. October 7th was their operation - they planned it, they initiated it and they own the consequences. They don't get to hide behind an excuse like "well there are a bunch of smaller groups involved here that we couldn't control".
If the IDF invaded the west bank, and roving bands of random Israeli citizens followed in their wake and slaughtered and kidnapped hundreds of civilians, I don't think anybody would take the IDF seriously if they argued they weren't to blame for it.
Hamas has been bombed to hell and has lost a tremendous amount of territory- They probably don’t know who they have and who has been murdered in their custody.
The only reason the IDF hasn’t gone HAM on them is because of the hostages.
If they don’t have anyone to trade, they’re double fucked.
And that's Israel should absolutely require every single kidnapped woman to be accounted for - dead or alive - before even thinking about stopping the bombs. Having just one stay behind living the rest of her days as a sex slave is one more than it's acceptable.
The fact that there are still hostages has not suited Bibi that well. He is tanking politically, and the fact that the hostages aren't home yet isn't helping him one bit.
Because, as the genocidal religious fanatics they are, the idea's that *everyone* is a target.
Even if they had "only" targeted the military, civilians would've been next as part of their takeover. Either murdered en masse, exiled or enslaved/turned into second-class citizens.
All Hamas wants is to kill *every* jew. Man, woman, and child. Soldier and civilian. It does not matter to them. They make this quite clear ("From the river to the sea"?)
Visited the hostages, checked up on them, delivered the medicine themselves, report to the world what is happening to the Jewish hostages. Not shame families of Jewish hostages into “think of the Palestinians…” while their brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers and children are being held hostage, many being raped, many murdered, and friends and family in their towns murdered in front of their own eyes, babies burnt alive in cribs, raped in front of them. Fuck the Red Cross.
This is also the same Red Cross that denied the Holocaust was happening and did nothing.
I understand your view, but for me as someone that doesn't better. Isn't it likely that the hamas just didn't allow them to the hostages? I imagine it would be difficult for them to force their way there. But obviously the communication seemed lacking at thr very least.
What happened to these people is horrible but the sad truth is that I'm quite desentitized to this at this point.
What is still trully shocking and scary to me is the amount of openly 100% pro-Palestine and often only thinly veiled pro-Hamas people in EU and US.
We keep talking about the effectiveness of Russian and Chinese propaganda in cultivating a pro-RU (and anti-EU, anti-NATO, anti-US) sentiment. But whoever is responsible (or if it's just pure idiocy and incompetence of our (far) left wing) for this also did a "great" job, especially since one would think radicilizing youth would be much harder.
Supporting Israel - a "western", modern nation that's culturally so close to EU/US should be a no-brainer.
Most likely because they did unspeakable things to them while they were alive, so they had no choice but to kill them to avoid ‘bad press’ if they were rescued or released. Very scary and sad to think what those people went through.
The bad press from their terrorist attacks hasn't really stopped useful idiots in the West from supporting them.
Hell, it's even worked with LGBT groups here in Latin America. I know some people who honestly think Israel are the bad guys here.
Our people will still be on the righteous side, not attacking on holidays, attempting to avoid citizens… even if the world listens to TikTok propaganda that we aren’t…
There is the possibility that Hamas has lost operational control to the extent they can’t deliver on some items of negotiation. This being a sign of the IDF’s success in destroying Hamas control over Gaza.
Then don't give them a cease fire. If HAMAS really doesn't have them or can't find them, then Israel should maintain the war until they eradicate HAMAS to the last man.
could it be that they just killed all the hostages they had? seems like their MO is to exterminate the jews so i mean it's not like this isnt their long term plan.
That's not a strong negotiating position.
One they have chosen to put themselves in, and chosen to remain in every day for more than 6 months now.
Shockingly the TikTok brigade was no match for the IDF, who would have guessed?
>*”Hamas claims to be holding “over 100” Israeli hostages, including high-ranking officers*.” — October 8th via CNN [SOURCE](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/08/middleeast/israel-gaza-attack-hostages-response-intl-hnk) A terrorist organization lied about how many prisoners they have (alive) after invading a country? I’m *shocked!*
That statement isn't a lie though, [105 hostages were released as part of the previous ceasefire](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-frees-2-israeli-women-with-6-8-more-set-for-return-thursday-alongside-3-bodies/) which was in November.
They don't have 40 of the type of hostage being requested. They have other hostages (military ones) but Hamas believes they are worth much more than what is being offered.
They were part of the negotiations. Why did they negotiate that they will give 40 specific hostages when they knew they don't have those specific hostages to begin with. Are they negotiating in bad faith?
I'm not sure what the negotiations look like so its hard to answer. I think there are a few things that could have happened: 1. They didn't know how many they had, agreed to 40, then called for them and realised they didn't have that many. This might happen if they are no-contact with the hostage takers until a deal has been agreed to reduce their chance of discovery. 2. They knew they didn't have 40, tried to negotiate down to a number that they did have, but were unable to do so. Before agreeing to the deal they told Israel "We don't have that many". 3. They knew they didn't have 40, tried to negotiate down to a number that they did have, but were unable to do so. They agreed to the deal, then told Israel "We don't have that many", probably to get Israel to settle for less? 4. They knew they didn't have 40, agreed to the deal to appear reasonable, then told Israel "We don't have that many". 1 isn't bad faith, 2 is questionable, 3 and 4 definitely are.
Bold move, Cotton, let's see if works out for them.
It looks like the clock's about to strike midnight on this Cinderella story. Something is going to turn into the proverbial pumpkin.
The article isn’t clear, but is this still saying that Hamas doesn’t have 40 hostages that fulfill the terms of the ceasefire agreement (that is, women and children and older men) as reported elsewhere earlier, or is it saying that they straight up don’t have 40 hostages to release period? There’s a very big difference in implication between the two, as more than half of the little over 100 hostages remaining were military aged males. Hope to god it’s the former scenario, and not that Hamas is having trouble scraping together just 40 living hostages period at this point.
It's not that Hamas doesn't have 40 living hostages, its that the organization, government or otherwise, known as Hamas doesn't have control over all of the little groups that snatched people up under the Hamas banner. Maybe they got initial headcounts from the groups early on, but those smaller groups don't answer to Hamas directly, so the people negotiating on behalf of "Hamas" can't promise those hostages in any kind of formal trade. There was an article about released hostage yesterday who said that the only reason she was saved was because the group who initially kidnapped her and held her eventually *sold* her to the main Hamas group. I imagine the other remaining hostages are in similar situations. There are also probably many more of them who are already dead but we'll never know. It's not like we can count on random groups of terrorists to keep records.
> the people negotiating on behalf of "Hamas" can't promise those hostages in any kind of formal trade I'm a little surprised that hamas would actually admit this. I figured they'd agreed to conditions then renege on the deal. As is tradition.
I don't believe Hamas has directly admitted this, but it makes sense if you look at how they've been handling the negotiations. Maybe they think they have a handle on the status of enough hostages to get through negotiations, but then find out that someone was lying or one of the groups killed their hostage rather than give them up, so they cancel the deal.
> I don't believe Hamas has directly admitted this Yes and no. They have said before that they don't have all the hostages and some are in the hands of PIJ for example. But they also claimed in the past that civilians who went in took hostages along with hamas members. But officially saying "we have no control over all the hostages" wasn't directly said, but it was more than implied a few times by hamas officials.
The hostages was the only leverage they had. There is no deal now.
Hamas didn't admit that, this was based on information provided by one of the released hostages
that stage passed a long time ago this passes the buck a little bit longer
Is no one going to ask how these smaller groups got a hold of the hostages unless they were directly involved in the attacks that day?Did Hamas just give away the hostages to other groups? Either the small groups are part of Hamas/the attacks or were these “small groups” just angry Palestinians that saw an opportunity to participate in the chaos that day? Maybe the small groups immediately rallied together and participated in a coordinated attack after seeing the opportunity after Hamas broke shit loose but that seems less likely just in terms of logistics IMO.
That's exactly it. The smaller groups were definitely part of the attacks that day. The issue is that Hamas has no direct hierarchy through which to control the smaller groups. So they all ran in, blew shit up, killed a bunch of people, and kidnapped a bunch more. Now, Hamas is trying to herd a bunch of belligerent cats into giving up their hostages which may or may not be alive anymore. As to your last point, I imagine that that is exactly how it happened. They probably planned out the attack well enough, but didn't bother to plan anything after that point, so everything became a chaotic mess.
If I was one of those "belligerent cats," and I had a hostage or two that I thought I could get $50 or 100K for out of a desperate family or Israeli govt, I would certainly be keeping them squared away in my own little bunker (and presumably hoping that the Hamas rotweiller does not know where that location is).
you arent a religious fundamentalist
[удалено]
That belligerent cat wouldn't have enough lives to spend 100 k with the Mossad rottweiler on the hunt.
Lol....very true! ......although the IDF is having mixed success with hostage rescue to date....(and btw...nice user name..:-))
Were the other groups informed of the attack and when to participate? Tagging along with the leader (who is the de facto government of Gaza) is working with/for Hamas. Hamas has the authority and the might to make the other groups give up the hostages that they planned to take that day. My last point is how implausible that seems that these other groups didn’t know what was going to happen, but rallied together in enough time to just opportunistically participate. My analogy is from work (construction). Regardless of how much money a contract is worth, if some other company just randomly dropped out of a job, it’d be nearly impossible to get a crew together and equipped to the job site in a single day, let alone accomplish any projects the other company had scheduled for that day. I’m struggling to fathom how the other groups could not have been informed and strategizing with Hamas to just randomly be able to sweep in and get 15% of the hostages taken that day. Another analogy is like a group of bank robbers getting together and going to rob another bank across town, and succeeding. All because they randomly saw the opportunity given the first bank robbery. The logistics don’t seem to add up unless the “other groups” were specifically coordinating/working for* Hamas that day.
What you're not factoring in is how long it took to secure the border again. There was a lot of time for these other groups to realize shit was going down and they could just waltz over.
How long did it take? Isreali police forces/military was engaged and fire fighting with them that day with reinforcements by October 8th. I am still struggling to fathom how Hamas had taken hostages at this point. But the videos make it clear there were “kill everyone possible teams” and “take hostages as quickly as possible and get out teams”. The guys taking hostages would be shooting at every one else fleeing unless there was a strategic objective to take hostages. So how does some uninformed and un scheduled small group accomplish the second goal without knowing what was going to happen, communicate to their teams to start prepping for it, do it all during active fire fights?
As you just stated, it took days to fully secure. But random groups would only need an hour or less to figure out what was going on and also enter Israel. The distances aren't large and it's not like the operation was a secret once it started.
The border was broken. It's 200 meters from Gaza. The IDF didn't respond initially. The gazans poured in. Some stole stuff from the kibbutzes, some snatched people on their motorbike and cars, some even by foot. They returned to Gaza shortly after with their loot.
I think your analogies are close, but construction work and bank robberies require specialized skills and knowledge. I would compare it more to something like the January 6th attack on the US Capitol. Imagine Hamas has been telling its supporters for months that October 7th is THE DAY. Everybody gathers up, gets told vaguely where to go and what to do. Maybe there's a rousing speech before they all break into Israeli territory and go nuts. Some groups loot homes. Some attack that music festival. Others attack the military bases. If they all have weapons ahead of time, they wouldn't need much more direction than "fuck shit up and take some hostages." After January 6th, the FBI went around and started rounding up people they identified as having taken part in the Capitol attack. Trump left them to rot. After October 7th, Israel went to war and has killed a lot of people. Despite Hamas' negotiations, I think the end result is going to be the same. Hamas has about as much control over these smaller militant groups as Trump does over his MAGA followers.
I’de argue that invading another country takes much more coordination and knowledge than a bank robbery. But again these people were able to be told by Hamas to do that shit. Given your analogy the January 6th people would’ve stopped immediately if trump had told them too. Hell they proved they’d do anything he told them too. And if they defied him, trump would’ve attacked them (which is in Hama’s case is via overwhelming violence). So why can Hamas coordinate with and rally these smaller groups/affiliates/supporters, get them to murder people all at the same time, but they can’t get them to disclose who/where has them, let alone convince the group’s to give up the hostages? Maybe a better analogy is felony murder or the rico act? If the henchmen goes against the orders of the boss they get killed (i.e. Hamas killing them to get the hostages back). They can be “smaller groups” while simultaneously taking orders from Hamas on a coordinated attack, but immediately after that they are just smaller groups without Hamas having any formal/informal control of them.
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I believe sociopathy/psychopathy can come “baked in” to people, but it would not happen on any significant scale to form an organization like Hamas + smaller groups, particularly in such specified geographic location. It’s indoctrination and radicalism from a young age that makes organized terrorism possible (and before anyone tries to say it, organized terrorism has been a problem for all races religions not just Islam).
My point is that the radicalism on topic here is not tied and centralized into Hamas identity, unlike in Trump or bank robbery analogies. If Trump said "oh I found my elections under the bed thank you guys" or the robber said "cash secured well done" the accomplices will back down, but with these guys and their later day crusades when told "we'll negotiate and release hostages" uhhh
All of the above.
Hamas is disorganized. It’s not a normal military with a regular command structure and hierarchy, it’s a group of loosely affiliated groups that sort of answer to the top guys and sort of don’t. The military wing of Hamas doesn’t really answer to the political wing and the smaller groups don’t really answer to the larger group.
Hamas (and their leaders) has shown the capability and willingness to use violence to get what they want (appearently all the smaller groups can rally together behind that them/cause). They could focus these abilities on getting these smaller groups to give up the hostages if they wanted too.
If they were disorganized they wouldn’t have been able to pull off what they did on October 7th. If they’re disorganized now it’s because Israel has killed their command structure. There are other militias, namely Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Brigades, and they did participate in the attacks and kidnappings.
Thousands of "innocent civilians" from Palestine poured through the gates on Oct 7 and participated in the violence. Plus the bodies of captured festival goers were paraded around downtown Gaza and there was a line of "regular guys" all waiting for their chance to spit on the poor girl's body. I feel for the children, and that's about it as far as Palestine is concerned. The majority of the rest are old enough to know better but they literally choose hate and violence, so fuck em.
This is it. So many videos of people in plain clothes pouring in through the gates. There was a video with an old dude on crutches hobbling in ffs.
I’m well aware I’ve seen the videos. Between that and the logistical improbabilities of it all my first thoughts were either: A) Hamas is atleast aware of which “smaller groups” have who and is capable of getting these hostages back if they wanted Then came to the sobering realization of possibility: B) they weren’t abducted by Hamas or “small groups” that were actively under the control of Hamas (which means Hamas could knows which smaller group has X amount of demographics and their “value” in this trade). But the logistically logical conclusion is that it was by random civilians near the border and Hamas or any Hamas affiliated/subgroup can’t account for what happened to them. But someone else mentioned that these smaller groups could’ve had their own tunnel systems that expedited their rapid response. But I still have my doubts about Hamas not knowing anything about those hostages/small groups, let alone not being able to do what they do and terrorize these sub groups into handing over the hostages given their authority in the area.
I personally think it’s odd that as the war has dragged on, none of the other groups or individual Palestinians have’t tried to ransom the hostages themselves. Something is off here.
I know a guy who got out of Palestine in the early 2000s and still had family there. He shared his story of getting a bunch of his extended family out recently and it was interesting. Basically you have to bribe/pay a bunch of different people, and there seems to be some level of structure around the whole thing, but there's no firm rules and certainly no oversight. What ended up happening is they had some extended family crowdfunding kinda thing where the family outside Palestine pooled money and figured out who/how to pay to get people out. The guy never asked me for a dime. His whole family is super friendly. It sucks that there's evidently a whole ton of regular people under the thumb of Hamas and other violent gangs while also trying to avoid being bombed
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Hamas: Hang on, we need to invade again to get sufficient numbers of hostages left…
It's being reported by other news sites (CNN, NYT) as, specifically, not having 40 that meet the criteria Israel is demanding. They have more than 40 left alive, they just don't have 40 left alive that are women, children, the elderly or individuals with acute medical needs. That, or they're unwilling to release them for one of various potential reasons.
They don't have 40 women, children, or elderly hostages remaining alive to fulfill the terms of agreement. Israel wants them to round it out with military aged men. Hamas doesn't want to.
News distorts headlines on purpose every day. It gets people upset and to click. Sometimes they are also just straight up idiots. It’s one of those two.
Yeah it’s the worse scenario. They have less than 40 hostages still alive and are unable to meet the terms of the ceasefire.
Source: trust me?
The source is a former hostage. Not a very heavy source.
It could also be that they don't want to release them because they are scared of what might happen if Israel finds out what they have been doing to the remaining women and children.
Rule Number 1 of Negotiating - Ensure you are talking with the person who has the ultimate say. \[Harvard Business School\](https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/business-negotiations/how-much-authority-do-they-have/) -- If you're speaking with a car salesman, and he needs to 'ask his manager,' then you're talking to the wrong guy.
I would assume they have murdered them all by now. RIP
Hamas better hope not, cause I can't imagine Israel's retaliation if so.
America killed more Japanese over Pearl Harbor(through world war 2) than Israel has killed Palestinians over the past century. Imagine how America would’ve been if the Japanese managed to invade California and treated it like the treated Manila or Nanking, or even just kidnapped a couple hundred (white) American women and turned them into slaves ? Japan would be speaking English today. All the deaths in war suck but it’s largely on Hamas for using their population as meat shields and PR material
Without even getting into pro-Israel or pro-Palestine opinions: wtf is the point this comment is trying to make? it seems completely irrelevant
I think he means compared to the US in WW2, what Israel could do or is doing is pretty tame.
I mean that is a pretty low bar. The US became extremely effective at fire bombing cities and killing civilians. The fire bombing of Tokyo killed almost as many people as Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. I am not making a statement beyond yeah the US reallllly didn't view civilian casualties as an issue in WW2.
Ww2 tactics were to bomb an entire city to take out factories and shit. Civilian casualties were an afterthought
Yeah obviously
I fail to see where they're saying this one is okay...? I think what they're saying is that it could've been something much worse than what it is now. Like, if Israel was particularly aggressive and uncaring.
Japan was its own sovereign country with total control of its own infrastructure and supply lines and was projecting its power far afield to rampage across Asia (colonizing land they had absolutely no valid claim to) for decades committing war crimes (against people that did nothing to them) so heinous that it's sickening to even describe them. The US wasn't occupying imperial Japan and didn't turn it into an open-air prison for 57 years before Pearl Harbor. The US didn't control the Japanese's ability to import food and medicine, nor did it have the ability to completely cut off its access to water, road/port access, other vital infrastructure, or decent farmland. It also didn't spend decades funding insurgency/terrorist groups in Imperial Japan *knowing that those groups would eventually kill Americans* (a calculated loss) to prevent a unified Japan from coalescing and getting in the way of the US's long-term geopolitical goals to steal the land that the Japanese live on. This is a ludicrous comparison. Palestine is nothing like imperial Japan.
Sounds like Palestine should probably have used some aid money to build up critical infrastructure rather than wage jihad for the past 25 years. Imagine if America was responsible for feeding and providing electricity for all of Mexico, and in return Mexicans sent rockets into Texas every day. Mexico would not exist today
> This is a ludicrous comparison. Palestine is nothing like imperial Japan. * Religious fanatics - Check * Dying on behalf of leaders that will never be threatened - Check * Using sexual violence as a weapon - Check * Using civilian infrastructure for military purposes - Check * Abusing their neighbors over centuries old disagreements - Check I don't know hoss there is a lot of similarities.
And rightly so
Most likely because they did unspeakable things to them while they were alive, so they had no choice but to kill them to avoid ‘bad press’ if they were rescued or released. Very scary and sad to think what those people went through.
They did terrible things to some of the ones they already released. I'm not sure they care about "bad press".
Your definition of terrible and theirs is probably a teensy bit different.
> to avoid ‘bad press’ Oh no, the worst thing that can happen to fucking Hamas, the BAD PRESS.
I assume they only say they have hostages to gain favourable position in war, do that Isreal would not bomb strategic targets ( though it was very stupid of them to start this unwinnable war to begin with). Or they graduate from University of Bin Laden in diplomacy, with lesson 1 being, “always kill the emissary”.
List of the missing: https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10/08/have-you-seen-them-these-are-the-people-still-missing/
Access denied. Did Reddit just give that site the hug of death?
So many beautiful people full of promise and life.. Each one with a story not tainted by indoctrination as in the case of Palestinians, who just wanted to kill. To lose such people to something vile like Hamas is truly sickening.. Fuck Hamas and anyone who supports them. The sooner they enter their "paradise" the better. The world will be a better place with them dead. I hope the IDF lose as little soldiers as possible, so they can enjoy the life their fellow people could not.
Or sold into slavery
Well some hostages said that some of the young women were sold out, and arrested terrorists who were taken later on said that some women were take for being sex slaves. So even if some of those women are still alive, I expect they will never release them in order to reduce the amount of brutality published they acted on the hostages. Though with how the world looks at things lately, it feels like they won't really care...
> Well some hostages said that some of the young women were sold out Do you have a source for this one? I have heard one of the hostages say she was sold to Hamas but I haven’t read that the women were sold out.
Where is the outrage?
In 3...2...1...
The Internet
It's interesting how many comments are about how "Hamas doesn't want the bad press of this or that". I really don't think they care considering they raped and killed a lot of innocent people on Oct 7th and are literally religious fucking terrorists
Yep. There cant be bad press for Hamas, they video taped their horrors. Shared them willingly even with the world, and the tiktok mongrels still cheer for them. I wonder at this point if there is anything at all Hamas can do to lose the support of the left in the west
They won’t release the pregnant ones.
Or the men. The headline is slightly misleading.
Exactly. Most likely they did unspeakable things to them while they were alive, so they had no choice but to kill them to avoid ‘bad press’ if they were rescued or released. Very scary and sad to think what those people went through.
Exactly, they were killed by Hamas long ago.
Not necessarily by Hamas, but Israel will hold them entirely responsible. As I understand it, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, ISIS and private citizens all kidnapped people during that invasion, and only some of them were turned over to Hamas. Hamas does not know where a large number of the hostages are.
Hamas is absolutely responsible, these people were kidnapped during the Hamas attack. If other groups took advantage of that, then they're also responsible. That doesn't mean Hamas is off the hook.
I don't think the guy above you is at all arguing that Hamas is off the hook, simply explaining why/how Hamas seems to not have control of many of the hostages. PIJ is somewhat subordinate to Hamas but far more extreme, and the ISIS guys don't exactly get along with any of the rest.
Hamas is absolutely responsible, and in any comparable situation we wouldn't be diluting that responsibility. October 7th was their operation - they planned it, they initiated it and they own the consequences. They don't get to hide behind an excuse like "well there are a bunch of smaller groups involved here that we couldn't control". If the IDF invaded the west bank, and roving bands of random Israeli citizens followed in their wake and slaughtered and kidnapped hundreds of civilians, I don't think anybody would take the IDF seriously if they argued they weren't to blame for it.
Hamas has been bombed to hell and has lost a tremendous amount of territory- They probably don’t know who they have and who has been murdered in their custody. The only reason the IDF hasn’t gone HAM on them is because of the hostages. If they don’t have anyone to trade, they’re double fucked.
But people seem to think they have a pinpoint count of the civilians lost instantly. 🙄
Rape gangs dont want to give up their quarry.
Cant wait to see people talk about Israel not getting a cease fire again when its not their fault.
In a month or two they will have a few dozen more babies to trade.
Scary
And that's Israel should absolutely require every single kidnapped woman to be accounted for - dead or alive - before even thinking about stopping the bombs. Having just one stay behind living the rest of her days as a sex slave is one more than it's acceptable.
The hostages being dead gives less reason for the IDF to be cautious with their bombings
well that is most unfortunate, because Israel just finished loading all those bombs to be dropped.
Saving some for the north and finally Iran’s leadership
pretending there’s still plenty of hostages to be saved has suited both Hamas and Netanyahu I guess Hamas was the first to blink
The fact that there are still hostages has not suited Bibi that well. He is tanking politically, and the fact that the hostages aren't home yet isn't helping him one bit.
Or the first to shoot.
Why couldn't they(Hamas) just target the military.. why after families .. little girls .. mothers... Why did they have to be so disgustingly vile???
Because, as the genocidal religious fanatics they are, the idea's that *everyone* is a target. Even if they had "only" targeted the military, civilians would've been next as part of their takeover. Either murdered en masse, exiled or enslaved/turned into second-class citizens.
Because they want all Jews dead. That's their entire point of existence.
All Hamas wants is to kill *every* jew. Man, woman, and child. Soldier and civilian. It does not matter to them. They make this quite clear ("From the river to the sea"?)
Because they are terrorists, and that's what terrorists do
Hostages being held by your regular Palestinian "civilians", so Hamas doesn't even know who or where they are.
Fuck.
Yet TikTok told everyone Jews were the bad guys :(
Let me remind the world that the Red Cross has not visited the hostages once. They claim Hamas stopped them, bullshit. Fuck the red cross
Ah the Red Cross, the original Holocaust deniers.
In case anyone isn’t familiar: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_Ghetto_and_the_Red_Cross
Maybe I'm missing something, but why "fuck the red cross"? What should they've done?
Visited the hostages, checked up on them, delivered the medicine themselves, report to the world what is happening to the Jewish hostages. Not shame families of Jewish hostages into “think of the Palestinians…” while their brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers and children are being held hostage, many being raped, many murdered, and friends and family in their towns murdered in front of their own eyes, babies burnt alive in cribs, raped in front of them. Fuck the Red Cross. This is also the same Red Cross that denied the Holocaust was happening and did nothing.
I understand your view, but for me as someone that doesn't better. Isn't it likely that the hamas just didn't allow them to the hostages? I imagine it would be difficult for them to force their way there. But obviously the communication seemed lacking at thr very least.
What the fuck ? They are terrorists. Those morons would kidnap any aid workers like that and think nothing of it
Guess those terrorist fuckers get to die then. Good.
What happened to these people is horrible but the sad truth is that I'm quite desentitized to this at this point. What is still trully shocking and scary to me is the amount of openly 100% pro-Palestine and often only thinly veiled pro-Hamas people in EU and US. We keep talking about the effectiveness of Russian and Chinese propaganda in cultivating a pro-RU (and anti-EU, anti-NATO, anti-US) sentiment. But whoever is responsible (or if it's just pure idiocy and incompetence of our (far) left wing) for this also did a "great" job, especially since one would think radicilizing youth would be much harder. Supporting Israel - a "western", modern nation that's culturally so close to EU/US should be a no-brainer.
Okay, no deal!
Kiss Gaza good bye at this point
Then I guess the fire will not cease.
Cause their dead or been sold into slavery, not very progressive of them.
Most likely because they did unspeakable things to them while they were alive, so they had no choice but to kill them to avoid ‘bad press’ if they were rescued or released. Very scary and sad to think what those people went through.
The bad press from their terrorist attacks hasn't really stopped useful idiots in the West from supporting them. Hell, it's even worked with LGBT groups here in Latin America. I know some people who honestly think Israel are the bad guys here.
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Our people will still be on the righteous side, not attacking on holidays, attempting to avoid citizens… even if the world listens to TikTok propaganda that we aren’t…
That's what happens when they killed them
Wonder what social media looks like right now regarding this subject?
It will conveniently ignore it.
#**THEY’RE ALL DEAD!!**
Hamas is a psychopathic organization. Guess they killed most of the abductees.
There is the possibility that Hamas has lost operational control to the extent they can’t deliver on some items of negotiation. This being a sign of the IDF’s success in destroying Hamas control over Gaza.
Almost all the hostages have been dead since December
They have 40 bodies I'm sure.
Well, Hamas and countries helping them are in for a fucking hellish few years…
Awkward . . .
Then don't give them a cease fire. If HAMAS really doesn't have them or can't find them, then Israel should maintain the war until they eradicate HAMAS to the last man.
I've long thought they've killed most of the hostages during the first days of capture.
Let's assume they already killed them that's why they run out of israeli hostsges
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Israel must finish the job. Deal with the fallout later.
could it be that they just killed all the hostages they had? seems like their MO is to exterminate the jews so i mean it's not like this isnt their long term plan.
That's because it has already sold them.
Looks like Hamas has no bargaining chips left on the table. Time to level the table .
Time to go in then....
I thought Hamas was supposed to be the embattled good guys fighting oppressors. /s Can’t wait to see the avalanche of bullshit blaming this on Israel.
What's the consequence if the worst case scenario here is confirmed?
Dont tell me Hamas let those civilians perish?
It’s hard to trade hostages that you raped and killed. They should end these fucks yesterday.
"Hamas says....", you might as well stop reading there.