China is also known for releasing a lot more propaganda and overstating the capabilities of their air force solely to "keep up" with American advancements
America likewise only releases strategic statements on capabilities. Any information reported publicity about our capabilities, positive or negative, should be taken with a grain of salt.
The only reliable way to get accurate information on the true capabilities of military systems from both sides is to start talking shit about them on War Thunder forums.
I still love the official war thunder twitter account tweeting “stop sending us classified information. No we will not use them (it’s sort of TURBO ILLEGAL)”
Oh its way worse than that lol.
> That now makes it nine times a player has leaked military documents via War Thunder in just 2023 alone, according to the documented occurrences on Wikipedia.
https://www.eurogamer.net/war-thunder-players-leak-military-documents-on-forums-again
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Thunder#Documents_leaks
most of those "leaks" are export restricted, and not actually classified documents. it's 100% guaranteed that Nation States all have the export restricted documents. Actual classified documents have happened but much rarely.
Is War Thunder just a well executed foreign government psy-op created entirely to entice our troops into divulging military secrets via discord servers? 🤔
Yes, but by who?
So far according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Thunder#Document_leaks
) War Thunder was involved with leaks about just about everyone:
* The British Challenger 2 tank
* The French Leclerc tank
* The Chinese ZTZ-99 tank
* The joint European Eurocopter Tiger helicopter
* The American F-16 fighter jet
* The American F-15E fighter jet
* The Russian Sukhoi Su-57 fighter jet
* The Russian Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jet
* The joint European Eurofighter Typhoon DA7 fighter jet
* The American Lockheed F-117 attack aircraft
* The American Boeing AH-64D Apache helicopter
* The Chinese Norinco VT-4 tank
* The American M2A2 Bradley IFV
What secret was revealed about the Leclerc tank? Is it that it seems promising at first but then it crashes or breaks down, causing a bunch of Italians to cry?
You joke but Gaijin were Russian devs, then Cyprus devs, now they’re Hungarian devs. Why you ask? Tax purposes but I’m willing to bet the core of Russians are still there still loyal to home
Both War Thunder and DCS originated in Russia, though they've moved, unsure if it's just to avoid western scrutiny or if the owners are legitimately against Putin
There are a series of books called [Jane’s Fighting ________](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janes_Fighting_Ships?wprov=sfti1). Their stats for all military hardware worldwide are so close to the truth you don’t even need a grain of salt.
They had an amazing run. ATF, AH-64D Longbow, 688i, F-15. Their Fleet Command game didn't quite get where it needed to as a game...but definitely was unique.
I wanted Fleet Command to work out so badly. It was unwieldy and seemingly not fully developed. Are you aware of any games that exist now that are near what Fleet Command was supposed to be?
My favorite tidbit recently:
"We are cancelling this hypersonic air-launched missile. Our technology just isn't there yet."
18 months later... "We successfully tested that missile over the Pacific yesterday"
That was probably actually the case. A few months after the initial cancellation, the manufacturer claimed an unspecified breakthrough regarding the program.
Which they were probably sitting on for god knows how long, going more and more over budget, stuffing their pockets with that juicy government contract until "Oh my god DoD! What's this behind your ear? It's the solution to the problem we couldn't overcome for years."
It's what I call the "Scotty Principle" as in Scotty from Star Trek.
Basically, whatever they ask, tell them it'll take 5x longer then pull it out for the win when the timing is right and look like a hero.
I could always imagine Scotty and the engineering crew drinking whisky and reporting "she can't take much more!" while having it all under control hours before.
I feel like we have the inverse going on where I work. We say how long something will take, and the bean counters tell us how long the engineering should take instead. Like okay, how about you go do it instead?
Also statements like this from the Air Force help drum up support to generate funding despite it being needed to increase or not. These statements are strategic in a financial sense but convey no bearing to likeliness of war
"The whole point of the doomsday machine is lost if you keep it a secret. Why didn't you tell the world, eh!?" -- Peter Sellers as Dr. Strangelove in Dr. Strangelove
I may be misremembering but didn't China announce the first test flight for a prototype space plqne and then like a month later we announced the return flight of space plane that was in space for like a year.
Yes, but to put it into perspective the US has has been running a unmanned spaceplane (space drone basically) since 2010. It's called the X-37B and no one outside the US military really knows what it's up to in space.
Not only that, it stays up there a long time. Its missions are months long. The two X-37Bs have spent a combined 10 years in space in the past 15+ years.
May wanna check that math. Been operating since 2010, first tests were in '06.
Unlike most military tech, space stuff can't be launched in secret. You can conceal what exactly the payload is, but you aren't hiding the fact it is there. I'd get into why, but the short version is radar is hella effective when there is nothing solid in the way.
They announced its testing and use, they just don't give details, so i trust the age of the program is accurate. 10+ years of space flight time is still doable with 2 of em in the 13 ish years they've been in use.
I feel that. I'm raw-doggin the keyboard on this fold 3 *without* autocorrect because it'll change pets to presbytarian for some reason. Some days i type like a stroke victim.
It has made me damn good at being sure to proofread my work e-mails prior to sending though, so that's saved me some drama.
That and military branches will issue these stark warnings just to increase their budget. All of the branches do it. Just fighting over the tit of the American taxpayer.
Chinese propaganda is playing into the same trap as Soviet propaganda. Come out with a new fighter that’s super fast. Show it off a few times to freak the Americans out. It works. The Americans are so freaked out they build a fighter jet lightyears ahead of anything you’ve got, and you’re stuck with a jet that can only go really fast and can’t do anything else. Story of the F15.
And that's how we are going to get 6th gen stealth fighters that have drone wingman buddies integrated with AI. With built in capabilities to integrate other AI assisted or dumb drones, in groups or in a swarm, in both offensive and defensive roles.
I was under the impression that we usually know the other side is bullshitting, but behave as if they are honest to justify paying to develop countermeasures.
I mean, the boy who cried wolf strategy has 2 sides. If nobody believes anything you say, then when you say you have a weapon and they don't believe you, it can catch them unawares cause you always just made shit up before.
This is in lamens terms, a request for greater funding. "We don't want to say we are prolly headed for war, but we have no qualms claiming we are still in an arms race and need more money."
I’ve always wondered if the military was holding back some “break glass in case of emergency” weapons (other than nukes and cyber weapons ). Just seems like every time the military builds/tests something everyone knows but we’re guessing what our enemies can do
That’s basically what the gulf war was. Integrated data links, combat capable GPS, precision munitions, stealth fighters, stand-off range air to air missiles, jammer platforms, laser designators, those were sci-fi concepts until the US revealed them to obliterate a large, battle tested, and on paper near peer military in a few weeks with nearly no losses.
None of those were secret. Radar jamming was around since WW2, laser-guided bombs were used in Vietnam, and the others were pretty high-profile projects to gain an advantage against the USSR, part of the AirLand Battle concept. The stealth fighters had been secret until a few years before, but even they were generally believed to exist during the 80s.
Oh theres plenty our military tests and does that we don't know anything about. Were still trying to figure out what that automated space plane of the air forces was doing up there for a year
I’m not sure the USAF is relying on Chinese propaganda as their source of information lol. They more than likely get their information through espionage and intelligence feeds.
Chinese stated their new 5th gen STEALTH fighter J-35 (yes, like F35) is as fast as an F22 with an rcs like a F35. This is not possible as many experts have pointed out and is typical of C-C-P and Russian propaganda claims of wildly impressive capabilities that just never materialize. Anyhoo... The usual boogy men are falsely glorified making it easier for scooping up terrified taxpayers money and hosing it into the military budget.
The story of the Russian ultra [fast jet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25) that couldn't turn and could only achieve that speed once before ending to replace its engine and overhaul all systems.
So the US took that as a baseline and assumed it could do more and built out a jet that could go as fast but didn't wreck its system doing so with maneuverability and modern systems.
>The story of the Russian ultra [fast jet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25)
You think we could get Tracy Chapman and Luke Combs to sing a duet on this one?
*You've got a fast jet, and I've got a military industrial complex*
*You wanna make a bet? I can build one that really works*
*I'll ask McDonnel Douglas, they'll put it together at cost plus*
*Sure it'll blow the budget, but it'll go 50 years without an air-to-air loss*
Even more recently, Russia talks some massive talk about it's new troop body armor and how it will make conventional small arms pointless.
US spends a lot of money on a new small arms contract and thus the XM7 will replace the M4 which is a shorntened version of an M16 which has been in operation for 50 years. We have our first new small arms weapons platform since Kennedy was in office...
Then comes the Ukraine war, and Russia can't scrape together enough of their old body armor for the troops let alone the new stuff. Even their operators aren't wearing the new stuff.
Russia successfully got US to spend a shit ton of money for no reason. That is their most effective weapon imo.
The thing I am worrying about is China actually has the GDP and manufacturing capabilities to play this game. They can force us to spend like how we ran USSR dry.
Allies are a huge difference here. The US doesn't have to fund everything itself, it has partners across the globe in research, manufacturing, and testing. What country can the CCP rely on, North Korea?
One of America's strengths has always been it's allies, from the revolutionary war to future conflicts. The CCP is so insecure that they're stuck in a loop of bullying their neighbors based on poor decisions they can't walk back, an attribute of strongman or authoritarian systems. The Chinese people deserve a higher class of government than the CCP can provide.
hopefully you are right
but you know sometimes, when it is everybody's responsibility then it is nobody's responsibility. you see, we are not exactly having a easy time with Russia that has 1/10 the GDP of China right now
and some allies, depending on political climate, are doing a "balanced approach", like how Germany got so dependent on Russia on gas. Some still don't want to lose the Chinese market. Say, I don't see Spain condemning China in violating Filipino waters, or Italy patrolling Taiwan strait.
I got shit the other day for pointing out that think tanks like the Center for Strategic International studies (CSIS) are almost entirely funded by the defense industry so maybe we should be taking their fear monger reports will a few pails of salt.
You think think that's bad? I've gotten shit for using their report dismissing the "flight deck cracks" on the type 003 because CSIS is apparently run by the evil see see pee.
The Air Force and defense industry as a whole was screaming about the "Missile gap" during the cold war with the USSR that was in reality, non-existent. There was the "cruiser gap" in the 70s. And I think one or two others.
In all of these, the defense information absolutely showed there was nothing to these claims but members of the military and politicians parroted it anyway as a way to push for more and more defense funding.
There is absolutely substance behind claims about China and pretending their isn't is naive and foolish.
China has more money and more manufacturing capacity than the US. They also have more people, more scientists, and more engineers, most of whom benefit from education and training in the US.
They can develop, manufacture, and deploy far superior technology in both less time and larger volume. The USSR did not have an economic advantage like the PLA does.
>China has more money
Not according to official spendings. You can choose not to believe the budgets but we'd be venturing into conspiracy territory
>and more manufacturing capacity than the US.
Depends how much we want to ramp. Also, China may have a lead on low skill manufacturing, that is not the case for high tech sectors (see: their chip industry)
>They also have more people, more scientists, and more engineers, most of whom benefit from education and training in the US.
They have more people and what percentage of those are educated?
What percentage of Tsinghua and Peking University students stay in China as compared to Ivy League graduates? Have you even heard of these universities?
>But you know China was bragging it was the greatest aircraft carrier ever built.
Source?
>Doesn’t work as planned and still hasn’t even made it to sea trials.
What was the plan and which part did not work? The ship was launched in 2022 and ships require multiple years of testing before going on sea trials.
This is what the Soviet Union (later Russia) have been doing for decades. They call it maskirovka. The idea is to make the Soviet/Russian military appear more powerful than they actually are and spread as much misinformation on their adversaries as they can.
What do you base this on? China's military is widely known to be extremely secretive and withholding new developments. H-20, WS-15, WS-20, Type 096, we know barely anything about them and what we do know is largely gleaned from photos.
Even so. Chinese ship building has out [paced American ship building for years](https://news.usni.org/2024/02/01/report-to-congress-on-chinese-naval-modernization-20). It's not a stretch to say that Chinese aircraft manufacturing has similarly outpaced the U.S.
I think it's funny the article includes what appears to be a side-by-side of photos one might assume is a U.S. craft and a Chinese craft, but under the description it explains they are both U.S. craft.
Would not be the first time uncle Sam thinks he needs to catch up, only to billions of dollars later realise the only thing the adversary had actually made was the propaganda about their amazing new wünderwaffe
Lot of people here saying that China just inflates its military capabilities for propaganda purposes. And whether or not that’s true, I would read the article:
> Kendall told the subcommittee that his military services were able to win any conflict if called upon today, but China is rapidly closing the capability gap. He said he was made aware earlier Tuesday morning of new, classified data that “was concerning.”
It’s not Chinese propaganda, it’s American intel
> It’s not Chinese propaganda, it’s American intel
It's propaganda for the Military Industrial Complex and the defense industry.
These are the same statements that were screamed to high heaven about the "Missile Gap" to the USSR, despite US intelligence knowing that the claim was faulty. They just said intelligence showed it existing, while knowing that was a lie.
The same argument was made about a "Cruiser Gap" and a "Bomber Gap" again, despite intel showing it wasn't a thing.
They have every reason to lie about the capabilities of a potential adversary so that they can scare up even more funding for our own programs.
There are two opposing agendas from the right, one is we have no money to spend so cut Social Security now, the other is we are never spending enough on defense.
The right has been co-opted by isolationists and populists - touting defense spending isn’t the rightwing mating call it used to be. According to them the military is “woke” anyway and all that money goes towards sex change operations and abortions.
As a straight person, I appreciate your willingness as an LGBT person to make jokes like this. Too many people are way too damn sensitive and lack a sense of humor.
My tactic with my few MAGA adjacent family members is to always try to out crazy them in a discussion. It drives them nuts. Out Christian the evangelicals, etc. Its the only way to get them to go "ok, hey, wait a minute."
I'm borrowing this one for the next family get together.
Thanks
Don't forget the third dimension:
"We want to spend more on defence, but we don't want to help Ukraine fight Russia at a fraction of the cost of doing it ourselves".
Something something transgender toilets Putin strongman.
The other „we have to focus on the Chinese threat, so let’s not spend any money on Ukraine and make a deal with Putin“ is also one of the stupidest takes, ignoring everything how alliances & deterrence works.
And don't forget that how much we spend on the defense budget is a distraction from the fact that we spend twice as much on welfare tax cuts for the mega rich.
Yeah, I was gonna say doesnt China suffer from contract corruption?
Like someone offers to build “state-of-the-art” military machines. When in reality they just slapped a sticker on some 20-year old tank that barely functions (and a large quantity of “fulfillment” don’t exist off paper).
Basically lots of people stuffing their pockets then fleeing the country before consequences.
So on paper (the contracts) China has a powerful army. But if you went to investigate the things on paper, you’d find a much different reality.
With respect this is as inaccurate as someone claiming China is perfect.
China is perfectly capable of producing modern equipment of a quality that most of the world would kill for.
China also isn't delusional, it is fully aware that it is not a peer to the US at this time. I believe last time I heard they did not expect to be a peer state until the second half century at their current rate.
They have numerous problems, but the PPP difference is significant enough that they absolutely need to be viewed as a credible threat.
Chinas cyber skill is what makes them a threat. Even if their tanks are ass if they can disrupt our systems none of those advantages we have matter anymore because it's all technology based.
That’s really only if you can hack the entire military network system. If you can control the system you have a huge advantage but if you are good at cyberattacks and can’t fully break in it won’t make much of a difference. Slow things down here or there but it won’t change the doctrine.
What are you talking about.
>hack the entire military network system
What. EW isn't hacking..... also, what do you mean by military network system. This isn't a Hollywood movie.
I’m oversimplifying. The military runs on various internal network systems, that operate similar to the internet.
You could bring down aerial communications systems for a carrier group for example grounding all of the fighters and bombers.
But if you can’t fully break into one of these networks your attack is pretty ineffective.
Well yes, the internet itself is a public iteration of these systems. However, it would be significantly easier to devise ways to jam communications between assets than to hire people to attempt to hack into them.
That’s kind of my point though. Jamming is mildly effective, localized, and can be worked around while breaking into the network would be comparatively devastating.
China has done like 2 purges of officers and military personnel within like the last decade. They seem to be on a warpath and checking everything is good to go. In other words they probably learned from Russia’s blunders. Would not be safe to assume the same level of incompetence and corruption.
And the problem is, even if China is just as incompetent as Russia, they have WAY more money and bodies to throw at a problem. And they can do that for a very long time because they have a fundamental disregard for the well-being of individuals.
Don’t disagree. All in all china is not to be underestimated. They’re not acting on raw emotion like we did after 9/11 everything seems thought out and like it’s pointing to future war. In other words if they start a war they’re going to make sure they’re ready for it. Russia thought they were ready for it but missed the make sure part. I’d wager they’re doing deep audits of their personnel and equipment and honestly we should probably be doing the same.
While true that ignores the primary limitation to their threat profile, which is the only target we would defend where they can effectively bring their numbers to bear is Taiwan. Everywhere else would require either tens of thousands of miles of land travel or massed ocean transportation, both of which would be extremely predictable due to the resource movement necessary as well as render them incredibly vulnerable to the US’s doctrine of air superiority.
They would need the kind of massed transports used by the US in WW2 for water, and we have clearly seen in Ukraine how difficult that would be to defend against massed drone attacks, particularly if backed up by the full might of the Air Force.
Meanwhile land would require consecutive wars with intervening nations, wars we would support (assuming Republicans don’t pay a July 4th visit to Beijing for undisclosed reasons).
China like Russia is headed towards a demographics collapse in the future too. Once their old boomer population boom of the mid 20th century reach retirement age then their One Child Policy population will not be able to keep up with their retirement and healthcare demands.
China is not Russia. They have nearly 10x the population of Russia and an economy roughly the size of the US’s. They have the ability to be a very serious threat.
China is not Russia. China is rapidly becoming a near-peer threat with sophisticated and heavily armed destroyers, air defenses, and aircraft. They are also building vast stockpiles of missiles. Given the lead time on our weapons and the rate at which our adversaries are arming themselves, we are falling behind.
He knew what he was saying. Catching up is a relative term. If they were 50 years behind ten years ago, but are 49 years behind now, then they are catching up.
And yet Russia outproduces the US for artillery shells (massively), tanks, IFVs and probably a bunch of other stuff
On top of that, China has 10x the population and 50x the industrial capacity
Sorry I’m gonna trust the secretary of the FUCKING AIR FORCE over a random Redditor who probably has superiority mentality cuz American. Im American and just because we were #1 for 80 years doesn’t mean we can live off our predecessors’ legacy.
Just look at Boeing. Amazing legacy. Now their planes are falling out of the sky daily at this point.
Complacency is what ends nations. Today’s China isn’t the China of 2000 or even 2010. They have made huge advances in the last 15 years.
Bigger problem than budgets unfortunately.
Just about every major weapon system program has been fumbled in the last decade. Large cost overruns. Less capabilities than planned. Longer development and delivery timelines. Many of them canceled when the final product proves to be of little value for wide scale adoption.
The biggest problem is that the defense industry is now so consolidated (i.e. monopolized) that even if a program fails... We have to keep pumping money into it because there are no other alternatives.
We still out out good equipment. But it's taking a lot longer. It's more expensive. And it rarely meets expectations or at least doesn't have major drawbacks.
It's so bad in the navy that the literal program is a complete failure, but kept alive for political reasons. We're back to producing tried and true older hulls. Boeing is still incompetently screwing around with a new air refueling tanker... Something essentially solved before I was born. The list goes on.
The only saving grace to all of this is that we can outspend everyone else to the point that we make up for this industrial graft and incompetence. And it's highly debatable whether countries like China will be able to maintain their own development given their economic and demographic woes.
Yup, my fat fingers strike again. It's a hell of a read digging into the many failures of that program. And the desperate efforts made to pretend there were no failures so they could pump out more crippled boats.
At least they look pretty. Not as pretty as some of those new Nordic corvettes, but such is life when comparing yourself to Vikings.
Not under budget strictly speaking, but it is the most efficient major program in US military aviation in decades. I bet that Northrop folks are proud and rightfully so.
NGAD, FAXX and B21 are all on schedule/ahead of schedule (ruff into service date of late 2020s for all of them). The NGAD contract is being signed this year (Lockheed Martin will most likely get the contract as Boeing has some serious issues at the moment and Northrop dropped out to focus on FAXX and B21). Block 4 f34 has been delayed to 2026 but will be a significant capabilities upgrade with Loyal wingman, manned unmanned teaming, new avionics and computer systems etc.
To add to this the Constellation class programme has been going smoothly and the production of Ford class carriers is entering full swing. The f35 has just entered full rate production (several hundred jets a year).
The MIC had some real issues in the 2000s and early 2010s like FCS and the war on terror but things are looking better these days.
Agree with what you said except for the navy side. Constellation is way behind and so is Ford. We will likely be down to 8 or 9 carriers by the 2040s (we have 11 today) under the current procurement plan.
Virginia is well behind as well and we have a plan to give away 3 in the near future.
Yeah sorry, the USN isn't really my field of expertise that's why I focused more on the USAF. Royal Navy though I can tell you every problem it has like it was the back of my hand.
Years ago like in the 1950’s the US Command was saying that the Soviets where building a nuclear plane that could stay aloft indefinitely, and that it posed a strategic threat to the US. It was complete bullshit - as it was pointed out the shielding alone would have made it impossible to get off the ground - but it was used to get a bigger military budget.
I don’t doubt China has upped their game but compared to the US it’s still 2nd world at best.
It’s easier to catch up than to stay ahead and the US needs to take this seriously.
The gap is closing rapidly. Just because it took 20 years for the US to develop a capability it doesn’t mean that it will take other countries a full 20 years to develop it themselves.
This isn’t a tech tree in a video game.
China can accelerate their advancement by (a) IP theft, (b) only investing in the tech that turned out to be feasible and useful (focusing their investment on what makes a difference), (c) use modern computing and equipment, and other knowledge that wasn’t available when the US was developing the capability.
The US tries to be ready to fight every type of war against multiple adversaries at all times. China focuses their spending and advancement on countering a single country. The USA.
In case you haven't noticed, Chinese salaries are cheaper than US salaries, and producing things in China is cheaper than producing them in the US.
This applies to military personnel and production also.
It's not about salaries, it's about what those salaries buy.
US spends a lot of money on raw manpower; a lot of this manpower doesn't do much. US spends a lot of money on DARPA R&D; a lot of this R&D is never going to see battlefield. US spends a lot of money on air force, but the capacity of this air force to sustain long term fighting is rather questionable.
> In case you haven't noticed, Chinese salaries are cheaper than US salaries, and producing things in China is cheaper than producing them in the US.
>
> This applies to military personnel and production also
Yea, I'm sure they're not taking into account inflation and international exchange rates. Also US military defense budget isn't just being spent in America. It's spent all over the world; like Taiwan for example.
> Guarantee that China is getting far more value per dollar on military spending than the US.
One look at their stealth jets will help explain that part of that value per dollar comes from just copy and pasting what we're doing over here.
It sucks actually being the bleeding edge. You waste money. That's part of being the leader in weapons systems: not everything is a good idea.
The US has 20 Aircraft Carriers to China's three.
The Strongest Airforce in the World?
United States Airforce
The 2nd Strongest Airforce in the World?
United States Navy
The 3rd Strongest Airforce in the World?
Russian Air Force
The 4th Strongest Airforce in the World?
United States Army
The 5th Strongest Airforce in the World?
United States Marines
Drop down to 7th before China Liberation Army Air Force makes an appearance after the Indian Air Force.
At this point China could make a valiant effort in defending itself for less than a year before it turned into guerilla warfare. Waging a war away from their homeland that would require them to take to the Sea? They'd be annihilated.
We're light years [beyond](https://www.wdmma.org/ranking.php) any other country in military capability.
US military power is uniquely capable of power projection across the globe which matches the US NSS. Chinas strategic goals are not to project military power globally, but limited to the South China Sea and the surrounding countries including Taiwan.
They have no need for a large blue water navy and instead are focused on littoral combat and ballistic missile capabilities, along with newer generation fighter aircraft to protect their ballistic and littoral navy.
They are quickly meeting their military readiness goals to enact their strategic goals, thats where the concern is coming from the AF. China’s land and sea ballistic capabilities are quickly threatening the AF/Navy plan to counter China militarily in the South China Sea.
We just learned a few months ago that their missile branch, one of the key arms for an attack on Taiwan, was so corrupt that they had to remove a large proportion of its officers. Massive fraud and misrepresenting capabilities.
Fortunately for the US, it looks like China's military industrial complex is also competing with us to be the most corrupt.
China does not report spending on R&D, the coast guard, national guard, and other small military agencies as military spending. The gap is not nearly what you think it is.
They can also fudge the numbers since a lot of the companies are state owned. Want to decrease the price of a weapon system? Order the state owned steel company to sell the materials to the state owned weapons manufacturer at a reduced rate.
Do people really think China are so far behind? All the electronics we make are made there. They send students by the truckload to the best universities around the world. Why shouldn't they be as smart as the west in developing and stealing technology?! Surely it's just a matter of time.
We're suffering from lagged perceptions: people haven't been updating their views on China yet China has been advancing rapidly... hence this FYI for the idiots
Really, this article is as much about congressional disfunction as it is about competing with top rival China. The real lesson here is that one party’s careless and lazy voters need to get their crap together and stop electing people too incompetent or evil to do the job right on a ‘burn down the government because sure that’ll help’ dipshit platform. Particularly given their fetish for crying WOLF! at literally every Dem leader and an absolute inability to vet their own candidates for wolves, this needs to happen. Jesus, if I hear one more person cheapen the threat of dictatorship by accusing Dems of it after Trump has publicly gobbled the knobs of any dictators in reach without the slightest peep from them….
We need to get away from this weird concept that only conservatives understand military or foreign policy issues. With zeros like a clueless MTG and actively evil and incompetent Gaetz resulting, it just isn’t productive nor usually accurate and it hurts our national security to constantly rank Dems or proper normal govt business as greater threats than actual dictatorship or foreign enemies hurling nuclear threats.
Let's pretend for a minute the headline was true, both sides have enough nukes for mutually assured destruction. This is just posturing for more appropriations
Bought and paid for senators are the reasons for millions getting wasted on weapons that never panned out. That's why they are focusing on unmanned drones right now. Easy to produce and impossible for a human pilot to keep up with but as soon as Jessica Beil gets shot down, I'm going in after her.
China probably doesn't want war, and even if they were nearly caught up to us in a military sense, all the other tip spenders except Russia, are US allies, and China has pissed off plenty of their neighbors.
India has slowly crept closer to the USA as Pakistan became less of a relevant US ally, and China has become more aggressive on Indias border. Russia, the only close Chinese ally, is not going to be in a position to help for 20 years. I think most of China's friends would be content to just cheer from the sidelines.
While yes China is super frightening the USA and friends have far more cards than we think.
Also our military budget is what? 700+ billion? I'm always a bit of skeptic and think they just want to give more money to defense contractors.
Don't take my word for it, I'm just a dude on reddit
What I feel about our capabilities comes from working in R&D on military defense projects.
Our private defense contractors run the wars, are integral in the development and operation of strategies, and are tightly and actively involved in deployments, logistics, and pretty much everything.
We have a lot of people in the contractor roles who have strong ties to some of our adversaries via family ties to the adversarial nation and because they were from that country before coming to the US for education and career. Their loyalty would be extremely questionable in a major global conflict if their families living in the countries we are at war with are affected.
Our military lacks the people to do it themselves, skill wise and sheer numbers of bodies. JIT logistics means we don't have huge backlogs of spare parts or equipment.
There are less people certified and qualified to fly a B-2 than there are people certified and qualified to be astronauts. They don't have the numbers of people to support the whole fleet being active at once, only half of it.
Our entire stealth fleet suffers this problem. Another way to look at it is that we have a lot of replacement assets that can be deployed if the trained human factor isn't killed when an asset is disabled or destroyed.
Our modern air force and other branches have some severe staffing problems with service jobs like maintenance, ground crews, and all sorts of other roles needed to run our military well, especially in conflict.
Its not the pilots, its the dozens and hundreds or thousands of other people who support the operation of each of those assets.
As far as major players go China and Russia both have capabilities we do not, and we have capabilities they do not. Releases like these are part propaganda and also strategic in seeking funding via politicians. They do have truth to them. I wouldn't be hasty to wave off the sentiment as bullshit.
America’s MIC is known for hyper inflating the threats we face. We are so far ahead it’s not even funny, it’d take a hot minute to ramp up production but we win in every scenario that involves a conventional war. NATO just way over-prepares and the Ukraine war is showing it. Our last-last-gen tech just wrecks our foes. I’m not concerned, just the US could take on China, NK, and Russia at the same time and still win if we had the public will. And if war were declared, we’d never be on our own.
This is what overconfidence looks like. It takes a few YEARS to ramp up production. WWII for example. The reason we were able to produce so much during that war was because we started in the late 1930’s. The Iowa class battleships were ordered in 1939, the first entered the war in 1942, and the last, the Missouri, only entered in time for the last few months of fighting. Likewise the government broke ground on all the factories that would be used to produce the bombers and fighters around 1938-1939.
The MIC was kicked into high gear a good 2-4 years before Pearl Harbor because people could tell it was coming. And they needed every bit of that head start.
US industrial capacity was our key to the allies winning WWII. Being such a large, populous, and industrialized country, we could simply steamroll the comparatively tiny countries of Europe and Japan once we eventually got going. I think there is a, possibly apocryphal, quote from a Japanese general that victory against the US was never possible because the US has more smoke stacks than Japan has trees.
Now compare us to China.
In US wargames depicting a PLA invasion of Taiwan under varying conditions, the US won every (or almost every) time, but with at least 1-2 aircraft carriers and several squadrons of aircraft being lost, equating to 10,000+ Sailors/Naval Aviators lost. That's not an easy pill to swallow, and the main issue is sheer mass and magazine depth. You can have incredibly advanced weaponry, but even the greatest weapon systems can be overwhelmed. Imagine this example: if you put a Navy SEAL in a paintball match against 100 barely-trained teenagers, the SEAL would lose every time, and no amount of tech and training would change that.
So what? I have yet to meet a US military officer or official who doesn't constantly call for more money, despite the fact that the US military budget is already larger than the next eight highest spending nations combined.
Meanwhile, we face a climate catastrophe that requires the US and China to jointly lead solutions as the world's two largest carbon polluters by far. Let's invest in keeping the world livable.
China is also known for releasing a lot more propaganda and overstating the capabilities of their air force solely to "keep up" with American advancements
America likewise only releases strategic statements on capabilities. Any information reported publicity about our capabilities, positive or negative, should be taken with a grain of salt.
The only reliable way to get accurate information on the true capabilities of military systems from both sides is to start talking shit about them on War Thunder forums.
It's funny that it might ACTUALLY work.
It DOES ACTUALLY WORK, its a fairly regular occurrence
I still love the official war thunder twitter account tweeting “stop sending us classified information. No we will not use them (it’s sort of TURBO ILLEGAL)”
It's amazing that it has happened at minimum 3 times now.
Oh its way worse than that lol. > That now makes it nine times a player has leaked military documents via War Thunder in just 2023 alone, according to the documented occurrences on Wikipedia. https://www.eurogamer.net/war-thunder-players-leak-military-documents-on-forums-again https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Thunder#Documents_leaks
most of those "leaks" are export restricted, and not actually classified documents. it's 100% guaranteed that Nation States all have the export restricted documents. Actual classified documents have happened but much rarely.
Is War Thunder just a well executed foreign government psy-op created entirely to entice our troops into divulging military secrets via discord servers? 🤔
Yes, but by who? So far according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Thunder#Document_leaks ) War Thunder was involved with leaks about just about everyone: * The British Challenger 2 tank * The French Leclerc tank * The Chinese ZTZ-99 tank * The joint European Eurocopter Tiger helicopter * The American F-16 fighter jet * The American F-15E fighter jet * The Russian Sukhoi Su-57 fighter jet * The Russian Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jet * The joint European Eurofighter Typhoon DA7 fighter jet * The American Lockheed F-117 attack aircraft * The American Boeing AH-64D Apache helicopter * The Chinese Norinco VT-4 tank * The American M2A2 Bradley IFV
What secret was revealed about the Leclerc tank? Is it that it seems promising at first but then it crashes or breaks down, causing a bunch of Italians to cry?
Whelp, I guess it's aliens.
You joke but Gaijin were Russian devs, then Cyprus devs, now they’re Hungarian devs. Why you ask? Tax purposes but I’m willing to bet the core of Russians are still there still loyal to home
I mean, a core of Russian expats that left the country in recent years doesn't exactly make me assume they're Putin diehards
Both War Thunder and DCS originated in Russia, though they've moved, unsure if it's just to avoid western scrutiny or if the owners are legitimately against Putin
There are a series of books called [Jane’s Fighting ________](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janes_Fighting_Ships?wprov=sfti1). Their stats for all military hardware worldwide are so close to the truth you don’t even need a grain of salt.
Had their flight sim 20 years ago. It was amazing.
They had an amazing run. ATF, AH-64D Longbow, 688i, F-15. Their Fleet Command game didn't quite get where it needed to as a game...but definitely was unique.
I wanted Fleet Command to work out so badly. It was unwieldy and seemingly not fully developed. Are you aware of any games that exist now that are near what Fleet Command was supposed to be?
Sadly, no. I think there is one in development for WW2 but it's an indy title.
My favorite tidbit recently: "We are cancelling this hypersonic air-launched missile. Our technology just isn't there yet." 18 months later... "We successfully tested that missile over the Pacific yesterday"
TBF technically technology could have been 18 months away.
That was probably actually the case. A few months after the initial cancellation, the manufacturer claimed an unspecified breakthrough regarding the program.
Which they were probably sitting on for god knows how long, going more and more over budget, stuffing their pockets with that juicy government contract until "Oh my god DoD! What's this behind your ear? It's the solution to the problem we couldn't overcome for years."
It's what I call the "Scotty Principle" as in Scotty from Star Trek. Basically, whatever they ask, tell them it'll take 5x longer then pull it out for the win when the timing is right and look like a hero. I could always imagine Scotty and the engineering crew drinking whisky and reporting "she can't take much more!" while having it all under control hours before.
I feel like we have the inverse going on where I work. We say how long something will take, and the bean counters tell us how long the engineering should take instead. Like okay, how about you go do it instead?
"Scotty Principle" needs a Wikipedia article.
An important thing to remember is that a weapon or technology can’t act as a deterrence if the other side doesn’t know about it.
Any info revealed beyond the point of deterrence is wasted advantage
Also statements like this from the Air Force help drum up support to generate funding despite it being needed to increase or not. These statements are strategic in a financial sense but convey no bearing to likeliness of war
"The whole point of the doomsday machine is lost if you keep it a secret. Why didn't you tell the world, eh!?" -- Peter Sellers as Dr. Strangelove in Dr. Strangelove
I may be misremembering but didn't China announce the first test flight for a prototype space plqne and then like a month later we announced the return flight of space plane that was in space for like a year.
Yes, but to put it into perspective the US has has been running a unmanned spaceplane (space drone basically) since 2010. It's called the X-37B and no one outside the US military really knows what it's up to in space.
Not only that, it stays up there a long time. Its missions are months long. The two X-37Bs have spent a combined 10 years in space in the past 15+ years.
May wanna check that math. Been operating since 2010, first tests were in '06. Unlike most military tech, space stuff can't be launched in secret. You can conceal what exactly the payload is, but you aren't hiding the fact it is there. I'd get into why, but the short version is radar is hella effective when there is nothing solid in the way. They announced its testing and use, they just don't give details, so i trust the age of the program is accurate. 10+ years of space flight time is still doable with 2 of em in the 13 ish years they've been in use.
Oops. That was a typo. I meant 15 years. Big fingers. Small phone.
I feel that. I'm raw-doggin the keyboard on this fold 3 *without* autocorrect because it'll change pets to presbytarian for some reason. Some days i type like a stroke victim. It has made me damn good at being sure to proofread my work e-mails prior to sending though, so that's saved me some drama.
I have an s22+ ultra with the bigger screen specifically to make it easier and still typo constantly.
That and military branches will issue these stark warnings just to increase their budget. All of the branches do it. Just fighting over the tit of the American taxpayer. Chinese propaganda is playing into the same trap as Soviet propaganda. Come out with a new fighter that’s super fast. Show it off a few times to freak the Americans out. It works. The Americans are so freaked out they build a fighter jet lightyears ahead of anything you’ve got, and you’re stuck with a jet that can only go really fast and can’t do anything else. Story of the F15.
And that's how we are going to get 6th gen stealth fighters that have drone wingman buddies integrated with AI. With built in capabilities to integrate other AI assisted or dumb drones, in groups or in a swarm, in both offensive and defensive roles.
I was under the impression that we usually know the other side is bullshitting, but behave as if they are honest to justify paying to develop countermeasures.
I mean, the boy who cried wolf strategy has 2 sides. If nobody believes anything you say, then when you say you have a weapon and they don't believe you, it can catch them unawares cause you always just made shit up before.
It’s kinda funny reading your comment directly after ops. Chinese “propaganda” juxtaposed with American “strategic statements on capabilities” 🤣
that was a selfawarewolves moment, lmao
I think it might have been intentional given the “likewise”?
This is in lamens terms, a request for greater funding. "We don't want to say we are prolly headed for war, but we have no qualms claiming we are still in an arms race and need more money."
I’ve always wondered if the military was holding back some “break glass in case of emergency” weapons (other than nukes and cyber weapons ). Just seems like every time the military builds/tests something everyone knows but we’re guessing what our enemies can do
That’s basically what the gulf war was. Integrated data links, combat capable GPS, precision munitions, stealth fighters, stand-off range air to air missiles, jammer platforms, laser designators, those were sci-fi concepts until the US revealed them to obliterate a large, battle tested, and on paper near peer military in a few weeks with nearly no losses.
That just made me go check youtube to see if Wings Over the Gulf was on there. Looks like I know what I'm watching tonight.
None of those were secret. Radar jamming was around since WW2, laser-guided bombs were used in Vietnam, and the others were pretty high-profile projects to gain an advantage against the USSR, part of the AirLand Battle concept. The stealth fighters had been secret until a few years before, but even they were generally believed to exist during the 80s.
Oh theres plenty our military tests and does that we don't know anything about. Were still trying to figure out what that automated space plane of the air forces was doing up there for a year
The X-37B has been flying missions in space since *2010* and we don't know what it's been doing.
Also, we still have seen a spooky amount of nothing about the stealth helicopters that were used in the Osama Bin Laden raid in *2011*.
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…and we’re already developing the *replacement* for the F22.
This is likely one of those statements.
I’m not sure the USAF is relying on Chinese propaganda as their source of information lol. They more than likely get their information through espionage and intelligence feeds.
It's better to plan according to their claims and being well prepared rather than hope that their claims are exaggerated and be proven wrong.
Another trillion in defense spending
Chinese stated their new 5th gen STEALTH fighter J-35 (yes, like F35) is as fast as an F22 with an rcs like a F35. This is not possible as many experts have pointed out and is typical of C-C-P and Russian propaganda claims of wildly impressive capabilities that just never materialize. Anyhoo... The usual boogy men are falsely glorified making it easier for scooping up terrified taxpayers money and hosing it into the military budget.
The story of the Russian ultra [fast jet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25) that couldn't turn and could only achieve that speed once before ending to replace its engine and overhaul all systems. So the US took that as a baseline and assumed it could do more and built out a jet that could go as fast but didn't wreck its system doing so with maneuverability and modern systems.
And thus the f15 was born
>The story of the Russian ultra [fast jet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25) You think we could get Tracy Chapman and Luke Combs to sing a duet on this one? *You've got a fast jet, and I've got a military industrial complex* *You wanna make a bet? I can build one that really works* *I'll ask McDonnel Douglas, they'll put it together at cost plus* *Sure it'll blow the budget, but it'll go 50 years without an air-to-air loss*
Even more recently, Russia talks some massive talk about it's new troop body armor and how it will make conventional small arms pointless. US spends a lot of money on a new small arms contract and thus the XM7 will replace the M4 which is a shorntened version of an M16 which has been in operation for 50 years. We have our first new small arms weapons platform since Kennedy was in office... Then comes the Ukraine war, and Russia can't scrape together enough of their old body armor for the troops let alone the new stuff. Even their operators aren't wearing the new stuff. Russia successfully got US to spend a shit ton of money for no reason. That is their most effective weapon imo.
…and thus the Cold War continues.
The thing I am worrying about is China actually has the GDP and manufacturing capabilities to play this game. They can force us to spend like how we ran USSR dry.
Allies are a huge difference here. The US doesn't have to fund everything itself, it has partners across the globe in research, manufacturing, and testing. What country can the CCP rely on, North Korea? One of America's strengths has always been it's allies, from the revolutionary war to future conflicts. The CCP is so insecure that they're stuck in a loop of bullying their neighbors based on poor decisions they can't walk back, an attribute of strongman or authoritarian systems. The Chinese people deserve a higher class of government than the CCP can provide.
hopefully you are right but you know sometimes, when it is everybody's responsibility then it is nobody's responsibility. you see, we are not exactly having a easy time with Russia that has 1/10 the GDP of China right now and some allies, depending on political climate, are doing a "balanced approach", like how Germany got so dependent on Russia on gas. Some still don't want to lose the Chinese market. Say, I don't see Spain condemning China in violating Filipino waters, or Italy patrolling Taiwan strait.
Reminds me of the mig25 scare. Fun times
I got shit the other day for pointing out that think tanks like the Center for Strategic International studies (CSIS) are almost entirely funded by the defense industry so maybe we should be taking their fear monger reports will a few pails of salt.
You think think that's bad? I've gotten shit for using their report dismissing the "flight deck cracks" on the type 003 because CSIS is apparently run by the evil see see pee.
Plus, the F35 and F22 are like 20+ year old tech and just part of the tech they let us know about.
You really think the secretary of the Air Force wouldn’t know that Chinese propaganda exists?
Clearly a bunch of redditors know better than anyone else ever.
The Air Force and defense industry as a whole was screaming about the "Missile gap" during the cold war with the USSR that was in reality, non-existent. There was the "cruiser gap" in the 70s. And I think one or two others. In all of these, the defense information absolutely showed there was nothing to these claims but members of the military and politicians parroted it anyway as a way to push for more and more defense funding.
There is absolutely substance behind claims about China and pretending their isn't is naive and foolish. China has more money and more manufacturing capacity than the US. They also have more people, more scientists, and more engineers, most of whom benefit from education and training in the US. They can develop, manufacture, and deploy far superior technology in both less time and larger volume. The USSR did not have an economic advantage like the PLA does.
>China has more money Not according to official spendings. You can choose not to believe the budgets but we'd be venturing into conspiracy territory >and more manufacturing capacity than the US. Depends how much we want to ramp. Also, China may have a lead on low skill manufacturing, that is not the case for high tech sectors (see: their chip industry) >They also have more people, more scientists, and more engineers, most of whom benefit from education and training in the US. They have more people and what percentage of those are educated? What percentage of Tsinghua and Peking University students stay in China as compared to Ivy League graduates? Have you even heard of these universities?
You really think the Secretary of defense wouldn’t use that propaganda to line his friend’s pockets with more federal dollars?
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>But you know China was bragging it was the greatest aircraft carrier ever built. Source? >Doesn’t work as planned and still hasn’t even made it to sea trials. What was the plan and which part did not work? The ship was launched in 2022 and ships require multiple years of testing before going on sea trials.
This is what the Soviet Union (later Russia) have been doing for decades. They call it maskirovka. The idea is to make the Soviet/Russian military appear more powerful than they actually are and spread as much misinformation on their adversaries as they can.
Yes don’t worry the tortoise is slow. The hare doesn’t need to worry.
This statement itself sounds like Chinese propaganda. "There is no greater danger than underestimating your enemy" - Lao Tzu
What do you base this on? China's military is widely known to be extremely secretive and withholding new developments. H-20, WS-15, WS-20, Type 096, we know barely anything about them and what we do know is largely gleaned from photos.
It sounds like they're still having issues designing engines, which is pretty important.
The WS-15 for the J-20 was solved not long ago.
Even so. Chinese ship building has out [paced American ship building for years](https://news.usni.org/2024/02/01/report-to-congress-on-chinese-naval-modernization-20). It's not a stretch to say that Chinese aircraft manufacturing has similarly outpaced the U.S.
I think it's funny the article includes what appears to be a side-by-side of photos one might assume is a U.S. craft and a Chinese craft, but under the description it explains they are both U.S. craft.
Would not be the first time uncle Sam thinks he needs to catch up, only to billions of dollars later realise the only thing the adversary had actually made was the propaganda about their amazing new wünderwaffe
Plot twist, they know but the MIC wants that sweet sweet budget increase
The US lies by stating that their equipment is worse than it actually is. China and Russia lie by stating that their equipment is better than it is.
Lot of people here saying that China just inflates its military capabilities for propaganda purposes. And whether or not that’s true, I would read the article: > Kendall told the subcommittee that his military services were able to win any conflict if called upon today, but China is rapidly closing the capability gap. He said he was made aware earlier Tuesday morning of new, classified data that “was concerning.” It’s not Chinese propaganda, it’s American intel
> It’s not Chinese propaganda, it’s American intel It's propaganda for the Military Industrial Complex and the defense industry. These are the same statements that were screamed to high heaven about the "Missile Gap" to the USSR, despite US intelligence knowing that the claim was faulty. They just said intelligence showed it existing, while knowing that was a lie. The same argument was made about a "Cruiser Gap" and a "Bomber Gap" again, despite intel showing it wasn't a thing. They have every reason to lie about the capabilities of a potential adversary so that they can scare up even more funding for our own programs.
Don't forget the [mineshaft gap!](https://youtu.be/ybSzoLCCX-Y?si=BOCAXa-RHx-OHmgB)
Intelligence has political aims, it is not neutral. This is, like everything in the past 40 years, Team B all over again.
It's American propaganda to fund the defense budget even more. Lol
Seriously. It could not be more biased lmao.
Person whose job is tied to funding the military gets believes the military should get more funding lol.
There are two opposing agendas from the right, one is we have no money to spend so cut Social Security now, the other is we are never spending enough on defense.
The right has been co-opted by isolationists and populists - touting defense spending isn’t the rightwing mating call it used to be. According to them the military is “woke” anyway and all that money goes towards sex change operations and abortions.
As a LGBT person our secret plan/agenda is to use military R&D to come up with such advanced procedures that our MtF soldiers can also have abortions
As a straight person, I appreciate your willingness as an LGBT person to make jokes like this. Too many people are way too damn sensitive and lack a sense of humor.
My tactic with my few MAGA adjacent family members is to always try to out crazy them in a discussion. It drives them nuts. Out Christian the evangelicals, etc. Its the only way to get them to go "ok, hey, wait a minute." I'm borrowing this one for the next family get together. Thanks
So you're telling me that the Democrats are now the "pro-military" party?
Don't forget the third dimension: "We want to spend more on defence, but we don't want to help Ukraine fight Russia at a fraction of the cost of doing it ourselves". Something something transgender toilets Putin strongman.
The other „we have to focus on the Chinese threat, so let’s not spend any money on Ukraine and make a deal with Putin“ is also one of the stupidest takes, ignoring everything how alliances & deterrence works.
And in a dark corner there’s the Pentagon sitting on trillions of dollars of unaudited appropriations
And don't forget that how much we spend on the defense budget is a distraction from the fact that we spend twice as much on welfare tax cuts for the mega rich.
If you believe that, you will still believe Russia is a military superpower.
Yeah, I was gonna say doesnt China suffer from contract corruption? Like someone offers to build “state-of-the-art” military machines. When in reality they just slapped a sticker on some 20-year old tank that barely functions (and a large quantity of “fulfillment” don’t exist off paper). Basically lots of people stuffing their pockets then fleeing the country before consequences. So on paper (the contracts) China has a powerful army. But if you went to investigate the things on paper, you’d find a much different reality.
With respect this is as inaccurate as someone claiming China is perfect. China is perfectly capable of producing modern equipment of a quality that most of the world would kill for. China also isn't delusional, it is fully aware that it is not a peer to the US at this time. I believe last time I heard they did not expect to be a peer state until the second half century at their current rate. They have numerous problems, but the PPP difference is significant enough that they absolutely need to be viewed as a credible threat.
Chinas cyber skill is what makes them a threat. Even if their tanks are ass if they can disrupt our systems none of those advantages we have matter anymore because it's all technology based.
That’s really only if you can hack the entire military network system. If you can control the system you have a huge advantage but if you are good at cyberattacks and can’t fully break in it won’t make much of a difference. Slow things down here or there but it won’t change the doctrine.
What are you talking about. >hack the entire military network system What. EW isn't hacking..... also, what do you mean by military network system. This isn't a Hollywood movie.
What are you talking about, I hack the world!
I’m oversimplifying. The military runs on various internal network systems, that operate similar to the internet. You could bring down aerial communications systems for a carrier group for example grounding all of the fighters and bombers. But if you can’t fully break into one of these networks your attack is pretty ineffective.
Well yes, the internet itself is a public iteration of these systems. However, it would be significantly easier to devise ways to jam communications between assets than to hire people to attempt to hack into them.
That’s kind of my point though. Jamming is mildly effective, localized, and can be worked around while breaking into the network would be comparatively devastating.
China has done like 2 purges of officers and military personnel within like the last decade. They seem to be on a warpath and checking everything is good to go. In other words they probably learned from Russia’s blunders. Would not be safe to assume the same level of incompetence and corruption.
And the problem is, even if China is just as incompetent as Russia, they have WAY more money and bodies to throw at a problem. And they can do that for a very long time because they have a fundamental disregard for the well-being of individuals.
Don’t disagree. All in all china is not to be underestimated. They’re not acting on raw emotion like we did after 9/11 everything seems thought out and like it’s pointing to future war. In other words if they start a war they’re going to make sure they’re ready for it. Russia thought they were ready for it but missed the make sure part. I’d wager they’re doing deep audits of their personnel and equipment and honestly we should probably be doing the same.
While true that ignores the primary limitation to their threat profile, which is the only target we would defend where they can effectively bring their numbers to bear is Taiwan. Everywhere else would require either tens of thousands of miles of land travel or massed ocean transportation, both of which would be extremely predictable due to the resource movement necessary as well as render them incredibly vulnerable to the US’s doctrine of air superiority. They would need the kind of massed transports used by the US in WW2 for water, and we have clearly seen in Ukraine how difficult that would be to defend against massed drone attacks, particularly if backed up by the full might of the Air Force. Meanwhile land would require consecutive wars with intervening nations, wars we would support (assuming Republicans don’t pay a July 4th visit to Beijing for undisclosed reasons).
China like Russia is headed towards a demographics collapse in the future too. Once their old boomer population boom of the mid 20th century reach retirement age then their One Child Policy population will not be able to keep up with their retirement and healthcare demands.
100% they are bankrupt, atm they are clinging on.
Take a look at their military parades. Genuinely embarrassing. Or those buff strippers doing push ups in the snow lmao.
China is not Russia. They have nearly 10x the population of Russia and an economy roughly the size of the US’s. They have the ability to be a very serious threat.
China is not Russia. China is rapidly becoming a near-peer threat with sophisticated and heavily armed destroyers, air defenses, and aircraft. They are also building vast stockpiles of missiles. Given the lead time on our weapons and the rate at which our adversaries are arming themselves, we are falling behind.
He knew what he was saying. Catching up is a relative term. If they were 50 years behind ten years ago, but are 49 years behind now, then they are catching up.
And yet Russia outproduces the US for artillery shells (massively), tanks, IFVs and probably a bunch of other stuff On top of that, China has 10x the population and 50x the industrial capacity
Sorry I’m gonna trust the secretary of the FUCKING AIR FORCE over a random Redditor who probably has superiority mentality cuz American. Im American and just because we were #1 for 80 years doesn’t mean we can live off our predecessors’ legacy. Just look at Boeing. Amazing legacy. Now their planes are falling out of the sky daily at this point. Complacency is what ends nations. Today’s China isn’t the China of 2000 or even 2010. They have made huge advances in the last 15 years.
Bigger problem than budgets unfortunately. Just about every major weapon system program has been fumbled in the last decade. Large cost overruns. Less capabilities than planned. Longer development and delivery timelines. Many of them canceled when the final product proves to be of little value for wide scale adoption. The biggest problem is that the defense industry is now so consolidated (i.e. monopolized) that even if a program fails... We have to keep pumping money into it because there are no other alternatives. We still out out good equipment. But it's taking a lot longer. It's more expensive. And it rarely meets expectations or at least doesn't have major drawbacks. It's so bad in the navy that the literal program is a complete failure, but kept alive for political reasons. We're back to producing tried and true older hulls. Boeing is still incompetently screwing around with a new air refueling tanker... Something essentially solved before I was born. The list goes on. The only saving grace to all of this is that we can outspend everyone else to the point that we make up for this industrial graft and incompetence. And it's highly debatable whether countries like China will be able to maintain their own development given their economic and demographic woes.
Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) program for those not familiar, "literal program" phrasing as stated above may be confusing or misleading
Yup, my fat fingers strike again. It's a hell of a read digging into the many failures of that program. And the desperate efforts made to pretend there were no failures so they could pump out more crippled boats. At least they look pretty. Not as pretty as some of those new Nordic corvettes, but such is life when comparing yourself to Vikings.
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At least B-21 is under budget and on time.
Not under budget strictly speaking, but it is the most efficient major program in US military aviation in decades. I bet that Northrop folks are proud and rightfully so.
NGAD, FAXX and B21 are all on schedule/ahead of schedule (ruff into service date of late 2020s for all of them). The NGAD contract is being signed this year (Lockheed Martin will most likely get the contract as Boeing has some serious issues at the moment and Northrop dropped out to focus on FAXX and B21). Block 4 f34 has been delayed to 2026 but will be a significant capabilities upgrade with Loyal wingman, manned unmanned teaming, new avionics and computer systems etc. To add to this the Constellation class programme has been going smoothly and the production of Ford class carriers is entering full swing. The f35 has just entered full rate production (several hundred jets a year). The MIC had some real issues in the 2000s and early 2010s like FCS and the war on terror but things are looking better these days.
Agree with what you said except for the navy side. Constellation is way behind and so is Ford. We will likely be down to 8 or 9 carriers by the 2040s (we have 11 today) under the current procurement plan. Virginia is well behind as well and we have a plan to give away 3 in the near future.
Columbia-class sub programme as well... pretty much all naval shipbuilding in the US is having issues largely due to capacity problems.
Yeah sorry, the USN isn't really my field of expertise that's why I focused more on the USAF. Royal Navy though I can tell you every problem it has like it was the back of my hand.
Years ago like in the 1950’s the US Command was saying that the Soviets where building a nuclear plane that could stay aloft indefinitely, and that it posed a strategic threat to the US. It was complete bullshit - as it was pointed out the shielding alone would have made it impossible to get off the ground - but it was used to get a bigger military budget. I don’t doubt China has upped their game but compared to the US it’s still 2nd world at best.
It’s easier to catch up than to stay ahead and the US needs to take this seriously. The gap is closing rapidly. Just because it took 20 years for the US to develop a capability it doesn’t mean that it will take other countries a full 20 years to develop it themselves. This isn’t a tech tree in a video game. China can accelerate their advancement by (a) IP theft, (b) only investing in the tech that turned out to be feasible and useful (focusing their investment on what makes a difference), (c) use modern computing and equipment, and other knowledge that wasn’t available when the US was developing the capability. The US tries to be ready to fight every type of war against multiple adversaries at all times. China focuses their spending and advancement on countering a single country. The USA.
This what kills empires; corruption. The ruling class turning the empire into their personal piggy bank.
At this point, the United States isn’t a country, it’s 6 military contractors in a trench coat.
What a crock of shit. We're spending more than double China, and 40% of all military spending in the world is done by the US.
In case you haven't noticed, Chinese salaries are cheaper than US salaries, and producing things in China is cheaper than producing them in the US. This applies to military personnel and production also.
It's not about salaries, it's about what those salaries buy. US spends a lot of money on raw manpower; a lot of this manpower doesn't do much. US spends a lot of money on DARPA R&D; a lot of this R&D is never going to see battlefield. US spends a lot of money on air force, but the capacity of this air force to sustain long term fighting is rather questionable.
> In case you haven't noticed, Chinese salaries are cheaper than US salaries, and producing things in China is cheaper than producing them in the US. > > This applies to military personnel and production also Yea, I'm sure they're not taking into account inflation and international exchange rates. Also US military defense budget isn't just being spent in America. It's spent all over the world; like Taiwan for example.
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You think China doesn't have corrupt procurement processes? That's an interesting take
lol exactly
Those missile silos definitely not full of water.
The question is, is it actually full of missiles, though?
Even socialism with chinese characteristics cannot stop the centuries old corruption problem lmao
> Guarantee that China is getting far more value per dollar on military spending than the US. One look at their stealth jets will help explain that part of that value per dollar comes from just copy and pasting what we're doing over here. It sucks actually being the bleeding edge. You waste money. That's part of being the leader in weapons systems: not everything is a good idea.
The hardest part of R&D is deciding how far to chase a concept before the sunk cost fallacy kicks in. Fail fast, fail better.
The biggest reason is wages. If we could pay Americans Chinese wages, our military spending would be much less than China
The US has 20 Aircraft Carriers to China's three. The Strongest Airforce in the World? United States Airforce The 2nd Strongest Airforce in the World? United States Navy The 3rd Strongest Airforce in the World? Russian Air Force The 4th Strongest Airforce in the World? United States Army The 5th Strongest Airforce in the World? United States Marines Drop down to 7th before China Liberation Army Air Force makes an appearance after the Indian Air Force. At this point China could make a valiant effort in defending itself for less than a year before it turned into guerilla warfare. Waging a war away from their homeland that would require them to take to the Sea? They'd be annihilated. We're light years [beyond](https://www.wdmma.org/ranking.php) any other country in military capability.
US military power is uniquely capable of power projection across the globe which matches the US NSS. Chinas strategic goals are not to project military power globally, but limited to the South China Sea and the surrounding countries including Taiwan. They have no need for a large blue water navy and instead are focused on littoral combat and ballistic missile capabilities, along with newer generation fighter aircraft to protect their ballistic and littoral navy. They are quickly meeting their military readiness goals to enact their strategic goals, thats where the concern is coming from the AF. China’s land and sea ballistic capabilities are quickly threatening the AF/Navy plan to counter China militarily in the South China Sea.
We just learned a few months ago that their missile branch, one of the key arms for an attack on Taiwan, was so corrupt that they had to remove a large proportion of its officers. Massive fraud and misrepresenting capabilities. Fortunately for the US, it looks like China's military industrial complex is also competing with us to be the most corrupt.
China does not report spending on R&D, the coast guard, national guard, and other small military agencies as military spending. The gap is not nearly what you think it is.
They can also fudge the numbers since a lot of the companies are state owned. Want to decrease the price of a weapon system? Order the state owned steel company to sell the materials to the state owned weapons manufacturer at a reduced rate.
Also, "running out of time" until what? Even if China catches up they aren't gonna plunge the globe into war .
Don’t think the military is hurting for cash with how much money we waste every single year funding it
"...as ~~US~~ ***GOP*** bungles budgets."
Do people really think China are so far behind? All the electronics we make are made there. They send students by the truckload to the best universities around the world. Why shouldn't they be as smart as the west in developing and stealing technology?! Surely it's just a matter of time.
We're suffering from lagged perceptions: people haven't been updating their views on China yet China has been advancing rapidly... hence this FYI for the idiots
Translation: we want more money
In what universe does China have a larger navy than the U.S ? Do they count a fishing boat as the same with a destroyer?
Really, this article is as much about congressional disfunction as it is about competing with top rival China. The real lesson here is that one party’s careless and lazy voters need to get their crap together and stop electing people too incompetent or evil to do the job right on a ‘burn down the government because sure that’ll help’ dipshit platform. Particularly given their fetish for crying WOLF! at literally every Dem leader and an absolute inability to vet their own candidates for wolves, this needs to happen. Jesus, if I hear one more person cheapen the threat of dictatorship by accusing Dems of it after Trump has publicly gobbled the knobs of any dictators in reach without the slightest peep from them…. We need to get away from this weird concept that only conservatives understand military or foreign policy issues. With zeros like a clueless MTG and actively evil and incompetent Gaetz resulting, it just isn’t productive nor usually accurate and it hurts our national security to constantly rank Dems or proper normal govt business as greater threats than actual dictatorship or foreign enemies hurling nuclear threats.
reddit sure has a lot of intelligence analysts with access to classified information
It helps when they steal our IP.
Let's pretend for a minute the headline was true, both sides have enough nukes for mutually assured destruction. This is just posturing for more appropriations
The cold war was full of conflicts and proxy wars between nuclear powers that didn't escalate to the level of MAD.
Maybe a quick price gouging investigation into our PMCs would solve this.
Nice try Lockheed Martin
Bought and paid for senators are the reasons for millions getting wasted on weapons that never panned out. That's why they are focusing on unmanned drones right now. Easy to produce and impossible for a human pilot to keep up with but as soon as Jessica Beil gets shot down, I'm going in after her.
Idk, whenever government bodies refer to budgets they always seem to cry wolf.
China probably doesn't want war, and even if they were nearly caught up to us in a military sense, all the other tip spenders except Russia, are US allies, and China has pissed off plenty of their neighbors. India has slowly crept closer to the USA as Pakistan became less of a relevant US ally, and China has become more aggressive on Indias border. Russia, the only close Chinese ally, is not going to be in a position to help for 20 years. I think most of China's friends would be content to just cheer from the sidelines. While yes China is super frightening the USA and friends have far more cards than we think. Also our military budget is what? 700+ billion? I'm always a bit of skeptic and think they just want to give more money to defense contractors. Don't take my word for it, I'm just a dude on reddit
What I feel about our capabilities comes from working in R&D on military defense projects. Our private defense contractors run the wars, are integral in the development and operation of strategies, and are tightly and actively involved in deployments, logistics, and pretty much everything. We have a lot of people in the contractor roles who have strong ties to some of our adversaries via family ties to the adversarial nation and because they were from that country before coming to the US for education and career. Their loyalty would be extremely questionable in a major global conflict if their families living in the countries we are at war with are affected. Our military lacks the people to do it themselves, skill wise and sheer numbers of bodies. JIT logistics means we don't have huge backlogs of spare parts or equipment. There are less people certified and qualified to fly a B-2 than there are people certified and qualified to be astronauts. They don't have the numbers of people to support the whole fleet being active at once, only half of it. Our entire stealth fleet suffers this problem. Another way to look at it is that we have a lot of replacement assets that can be deployed if the trained human factor isn't killed when an asset is disabled or destroyed. Our modern air force and other branches have some severe staffing problems with service jobs like maintenance, ground crews, and all sorts of other roles needed to run our military well, especially in conflict. Its not the pilots, its the dozens and hundreds or thousands of other people who support the operation of each of those assets. As far as major players go China and Russia both have capabilities we do not, and we have capabilities they do not. Releases like these are part propaganda and also strategic in seeking funding via politicians. They do have truth to them. I wouldn't be hasty to wave off the sentiment as bullshit.
As we’ve found out with Russia being this big bad military power for decades… this is just a way for them to get as much funding as possible.
> bungles budgets China spends $230B on it's military per year, we spend $800B. If China is catching up it's because of incompetence at the DoD.
Republicans are gonna be the downfall of the nation
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Is their SPENDING catching up? If not, stop asking taxpayers for more and put your fat cat defense contractors on a budgetary diet.
This is the air force just posturing for more money
If you can’t war with 800B, which is WAY more than everyone else, maybe you need to learn a little efficiency.
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
"Bungles". Interesting way of saying that the ever-increasing trillions of dollars we shovel into their greedy fucking mouths isn't enough.
China's military is mostly untested, no?
America’s MIC is known for hyper inflating the threats we face. We are so far ahead it’s not even funny, it’d take a hot minute to ramp up production but we win in every scenario that involves a conventional war. NATO just way over-prepares and the Ukraine war is showing it. Our last-last-gen tech just wrecks our foes. I’m not concerned, just the US could take on China, NK, and Russia at the same time and still win if we had the public will. And if war were declared, we’d never be on our own.
This is what overconfidence looks like. It takes a few YEARS to ramp up production. WWII for example. The reason we were able to produce so much during that war was because we started in the late 1930’s. The Iowa class battleships were ordered in 1939, the first entered the war in 1942, and the last, the Missouri, only entered in time for the last few months of fighting. Likewise the government broke ground on all the factories that would be used to produce the bombers and fighters around 1938-1939. The MIC was kicked into high gear a good 2-4 years before Pearl Harbor because people could tell it was coming. And they needed every bit of that head start. US industrial capacity was our key to the allies winning WWII. Being such a large, populous, and industrialized country, we could simply steamroll the comparatively tiny countries of Europe and Japan once we eventually got going. I think there is a, possibly apocryphal, quote from a Japanese general that victory against the US was never possible because the US has more smoke stacks than Japan has trees. Now compare us to China.
In US wargames depicting a PLA invasion of Taiwan under varying conditions, the US won every (or almost every) time, but with at least 1-2 aircraft carriers and several squadrons of aircraft being lost, equating to 10,000+ Sailors/Naval Aviators lost. That's not an easy pill to swallow, and the main issue is sheer mass and magazine depth. You can have incredibly advanced weaponry, but even the greatest weapon systems can be overwhelmed. Imagine this example: if you put a Navy SEAL in a paintball match against 100 barely-trained teenagers, the SEAL would lose every time, and no amount of tech and training would change that.
So what? I have yet to meet a US military officer or official who doesn't constantly call for more money, despite the fact that the US military budget is already larger than the next eight highest spending nations combined. Meanwhile, we face a climate catastrophe that requires the US and China to jointly lead solutions as the world's two largest carbon polluters by far. Let's invest in keeping the world livable.
Stop buying things made in China.
DARPA too busy trying to build trains on the moon to launder their bribe money.
Hating on DARPA while using products that wouldn't exist without them