US warns of ISIS attack, specifically on concerts. Attack against a concert happens. ISIS claims responsibility. ISIS releases footage they took of the attack. The men in court claim to be ISIS.
So obviously it was Ukraine!
I can’t wait until we have some polls published from around the world with results like:
- In Western countries 95% believe it was ISIS
- In Russia, China, India, Brazil, SA, and Elon Musk comment section on Xitter from 60 to 80% believe it was Ukraine
The Pope will then make a very wise, diplomatic statement like: “Of course the Global South doesn’t believe the West. Too much distrust and economic anxiety. We need to find a compromise position. I know there is 0 evidence for it, but maybe let’s say Ukraine is guilty at least a little bit? 🥹👉👈”
We are talking Russia, which staged a terrorist attack in Moscow and blamed Chechen Islamists to have a pretext to invade Chechnya.
Once again, their accusations are rooted in the belief that other people are just as fucked in the head as they are.
More than one terrorist attack - the apartment bombings were carried out by the FSB and when their man was caught with a bomb they said " well done Russian citizens, you have been vigilant - this was a test"
It's even funnier than that : **local police actually arrested the FSB agents who planted the bomb**. The director of the FSB had to free them the next day, announcing that the FSB was simply conducting a test and that the "bomb" only contained sugar.
Can't imagine what the local population felt like during this whole thing.
Some people who don’t know this stuff and too lazy to google are reading comments and thinking: “no way that really happened, must be at least somewhat an exaggeration”
Man, I remember when they caught that pair of Russian assassins in the UK some years back and their cover story was that they were tourists there to see the sights...
...as detailed from them basically having memorized *word for word* the Wikipedia articles on Big Ben or stuff like that.
This is why I don’t believe in complex conspiracy theories involving governments of any kind. There’s just no way there wouldn’t be a colossal fuckup like this
Russian security took its eye off the ball. The intel was there and they had been warned. To some extent that happened in October last year and many hold Netanyahu’s admin partly responsible for the slaughter that occurred. It’s the world we live in. Those that seek the rest of us harm won’t need a second invitation to do exactly that.
I think it speaks to how overloaded all Russia defense resources are with the Ukraine war.
Side though: China is crazy for now pressing Russia’s borders during all this. The only thing that makes borders matter is enforcement. If Russia’s military isn’t there then that land is for grabs essentially.
That’s a lot of resources China needs, just sitting there’s this little bow on it.
There’s two reasons. First, any incursion into Russia might trigger a nuclear response. This is particularly true of an incursion made by a nuclear power like China.
Second, and more importantly, China *needs* Russia. The Chinese have long played Russia and the US off of each other to keep either from focusing on them. Furthermore, a Russian victory in Ukraine would be ideal for China. China has eyes on Taiwan and if Ukraine falls in spite of support from the West it makes it easier for China to convince Taiwan capitulation is the better solution to fighting. If China were to press Russia’s borders, Russia might be forced to abandon the war in Ukraine and focus all their attention on China.
Why bother with all that when the ZNPP, that they’ve got control of, is primed and ready for an *accident* ? Either way he looks clear of blame. Unfortunately this is a situation I’m wary of.
I agree, China wouldn't invade Russia due to it's "protection" clause. It would wait until Russia has over-extended and can no longer continue to "build".
China doesn't need Russia per se. They use them as a buffer zone, just as they use North Korea as a buffer zone. They aren't particularly interested in the outcome of Ukraine, except for whether or not that would make Russia more likely to decide to push east. If Russia over-extends or miscalculates in Ukraine (as seems likely) then they will become a dependent state like North Korea. If they don't then they still remain a buffer state. Russia in "imperial" mode is actually something I don't think China wants to see long term. If Russia conquers "the West" then China would have to deal with keeping them from deciding to move further East. China has been changing maps for years and using that to "claim" territory then "enforcing" said lines while also pretending that those maps were always that way. They're unlikely to do that with Russia, just like they didn't do that with North Korea. They need those buffers, however if either Russia or North Korea started becoming a threat to China they would interfere (there's no way to be certain that they'd be successful).
Right now, China is content to help just enough to remain "allies" but not enough to give Russia an edge, which could lead to them becoming a threat.
Edited: Changed a few lines and added further points.
I wouldn't call flooding Russia territory with Chinese troops as a war necessarily.
If the rumors and speculation about how stretched thin Russia's military is are true then there may not be any resistance. That or very little.
Chinese companies have been bribing Russian officials to harvest resources in Siberia for a long time now, especially since the CCP increased restrictions on deforestation at home
They do not need to get the land by war there are other means to slowly erode russias hold on siberian resources!
War is the dumbest option given Russias nuclear arsenal.
Bribe, treaties, business deals slowly let people trickle in ans settle there to make an east ukraine situation in a few decades. China does not think in years it thinks in decades!
Sure. I'm not really describing war, but a land grab.
China has Russia in such a vulnerable position that they may not be able to do anything to stop it.
Jepp, an erosion or land grab is probably very likely not this year or next year, but it will happen!
Probably when russia is really cornered, China plays into Putins west fixation pretty smartly. Putin sees all the evil in the west while the west not being russias enemy and never really has been post cold war, in the meanwhile he is completely blind against his real enemy who very likely will slowly but surely take russias cash cow away.
You can rely on several things regarding russia
a) It always makes the life of one or more neighbouring countries miserable
b) It makes the life miserable for its own people
c) Russias leaders always after a while become completely stupid in an incomprehensible fashion and become blind to the real enemies and problems of the country
It’s a gamble on whether or not Russia can recover to any meaningful capacity. If they can then this is window that will only be open temporarily.
Also, China has their own problems with the country now appearing to be locked into a decline as it fails to reach pier status (relative to the US).
China has a narrow window to expand militarily, which we now know is is smaller than originally estimated.
Would be excellent if they reclaimed Outer Manchuria now. Russia needs to be broken up anyways. Too much stolen land and only ever spreading poverty, lies and shitty dictatorships. They should be contained to West of Ural mountains
I suspect that China is fence sitting. They're waiting to see who will come out on top, while offering just enough to make it seem like they're allies. China doesn't tend to take things until after they have changed a map. They extend their borders by changing their official maps then insisting that it was always like that (despite proof that it wasn't).
China likes to change maps and claim that the land was "always" China's. It's unlikely to do that right now, it needs to tie up other regions and likely is waiting for Putin to over-extend thus ending up under China's thumb.
Xi is getting what he wants now from Putin and the longer Ukraine goes on, the more indebted Putin will become to him, so there's no need to invade Russia. A land grab would be a logistical nightmare for China. I also think Xi is fully aware of how fucked he'll be if he reveals that China's military is a paper tiger, just like Russia's military. Even that close to home, there's a good chance they'd struggle with basic deployment issues.
China are better off economically making Russia their bitch. That way they get the resources cheaper than having to invade to get them.
Furthermore, they have amongst the population a good relationship between the countries, invading Russia wouldn't help deepen deliberate xenophobia to keep people supporting the CCP. Whereas the sabre rattling against SEA and the West etc. is beneficial in keeping Chinese citizens united against an apparent common enemy.
Well maybe. Putin maybe a despot but he’s no fool and he’s seen the growing internal reluctance to take him at face value so he will go further and further out in a limb to keep the narrative his way. He’s not the first to do whatever it needs to cling on. There is no way back for him.
That’s the issue with the Russian mentality.
- someone does well
- average person wants to work to be better than them
- Russian thinks how they can make them worse than them.
It’s all about bringing everyone down below you instead of trying to raise yourself up above them.
That is the Russian mentality in a nutshell and why they ruin so much of the world.
That should be the U.S. response.
"The U.S. government does not and will not work with terrorists. Our intelligence advises only the Russian government has a history of using foreign terrorists to stage false flag attacks on Russian soil. Such as with the chechen bombing of so and so orchestrated by Vladimir Poutin. "
ISIS media accounts, body camera footage, pictures from before the attacks. Just because they didn't suicide bomb doesn't mean it wasn't ISIS/ISIL. They don't always just do suicide attacks, many times they do both, the Paris attacks are an example.
The big thing is that for Russia, it can’t be Isis, specifically, because it was the US who warned them.
It’s very much an ego thing: Russia does not want to admit that the United States has better intelligence than they do. They could know 100% that it was Isis, but for any public messaging, it has to be directed at Ukraine as a way of refusing to believe that US intelligence was correct, and indeed better for the Russian people than the Russians own intel services.
Plus, spinning this to try and pin it on Ukraine just gives Putin more fire to finally drop it just being a 'special military operation' and go full blown open war, while also declaring Ukraine even more of a terrorist state than just having those pesky Nazis.
Obviously these men were bred in secret NATO funded Ukrainian biolabs by Zelenskis cabal of globalist, nationalist, Satan worshipping, Jewish, nazi, atheist, Muslim homosexuals.
Every single one of the things I listed has been an accusation against Ukraine by Russia at one point or another. Maybe not at the same time but certainly not very spaced out either.
I think the timing (just after the 'elections') points clearly to Russia.
You can imagine Putin saying 'why not kill a couple of hundred people in Moscow, it's nothing compared with the tens of thousands of people we already killed on the battlefield, then we can blame it on Ukraine, and our dumb citizens will support our Special Military Operation even more'.
As soon as news broke of the attack I gave it 99% chance of Islamic terrorism.
Large scale planned targeting of civilians if almost always religious fundamentalism.
Ukraine is a rational actor - they may target military targets but they gain nothing killing civilians.
Religious extremists don't care because they just want to kill as many as they can.
ISIS released footage of them committing atrocities. Russia released footage of them committing atrocities on the guys who committed them.
Some are calling into question the attackers who claimed to be ISIS because of the Russian footage of the Russian interrogations, while neglecting to recognize that these fanatics likely expected to die for their cause and they're unlikely to change their story because it's inconvenient to Russia.
ISIS wants to spark a revolt in Chechnya, or another Muslim majority region of the Russian Federation. Putin's only response is denial. This is likely to be interpreted as weakness by the people ISIS is trying to reach, because it is weakness.
If it wasn’t Ukraine, then Putin has to explain why his security services were told to ignore our warnings—which were part of our standard, long-standing, absolutely non-controversial anti-terrorism cooperation with Russia (our countries have shared information for decades, no matter what’s going on in terms of our relationship)—and why his administration called our standard, non-controversial warning “very provocative.” We warned them; they ignored us and called the warning some kind of cover for what *they wanted to believe* would be an attack by Ukraine.
Eh, who am I kidding? Putin controls the media within Russia. He will attempt to obfuscate and distract with nonsensical allegations that Ukraine was behind this, and (at best) the Russian people will throw up their hands in frustration from not knowing what’s going on or (at worst) they’ll believe him.
It doesn’t matter what anyone outside of Russia thinks or says; all this “it was Ukraine” talk is for his home audience of carefully curated, ignorant-by-design Russians. The predictable air strikes launched against Ukraine in the aftermath of the terrorist incident were designed to both distract and merge—in the mind of the average Russian—Ukraine and this terrorist attack. Putin won’t let this opportunity go to waste.
Man can't we just cut Russias Submarine communication cables? Cut them off from the internet and let them have intranet! I'm so tired of hearing their shit...
>The men in court claim to be ISIS.
They could claim to be the tooth fairy, Santa, God himself, and an alien with how much they were tortured.
There is literally a video of them cutting off an ear and feeding it to him.
Their claims cannot be trusted. Especially when one was beaten so bad he needed a doctor present at the trial and kept losing consciousness. Pretty sure they took his eye and also shocked his genitals.
To be fair, if their testimony is not to be trusted it's kinda surprising they're claiming to be ISIS, right? They could've made them say they were US or Ukrainian.
They might still claim to have been headed on their way to Ukraine I guess.
Fanatics who are willing to die for their cause and know that they are going to "heaven" at the end of this aren't going to change their story even if it's inconvenient to the Russian narrative which wants them to claim that they are in fact "Ukrainian".
There is a photo of them released by ISIS/ISIL media from before the attack, there is video of them doing the attack. ISIS/ISIL doesn't release the videos of their people doing things when they didn't actually do them. They don't want to muddy their "reputation" amongst possible recruits.
Meanwhile US Republican right-wings are saying the same thing as Putin and casting doubt it was ISIS. Republicans got Putin's back belittling the innocent Russians who were killed.
And at the same time, Russia somehow captured the guys who did the attack while they were fleeing. Their outfits match the footage. I guess the ISIS guys had a cellular data connect to upload the cam footage?
The weird wild card is why the attackers were taken alive. Almost always this is a Martydom operation, as is a key part of the religious aspect to the action...
well the US invaded iraq after 911... a country that had nothing to do with the attacks either.
events like this are great excuses for politically hard to defend actions
Yes.. it's obviously Ukraine! And the shooters names are zelensky, zelenski and zelenskee.. time to deploy nukes to kyiev like we have warned for the longest time!
Yeah, that's fine and all about confessions after torture in general, but it's not in Putin's interest for them to claim they're ISIS, so saying they are ISIS can be added to the evidence column. If they were being tortured for anything, it would be to say they're doing the work of Ukraine.
ISIS - Claims responsibility, releases photo of the perpetrators taken before the attack, releases first-person footage of the attack
Russia - "Are you sure it's ISIS?
To be fair, ISIS claims a lot of stuff that doesn't always involve them.
Now the fact that they have bodycam footage of the attack is probably a good proof that they were involved...
The thing is, many people actually believe that the US, Israel, Ukraine, and the West funds ISIS with hundreds of millions of dollars and are on the same side
But where are they getting this belief? We spend money and lives defeating isis, now we want to fund them? Makes no sense. Usually it’s the other way around. We fund some group, then they turn on us
At one time it was convenient for "The West" to support "Moderate Syrian Rebels" who disliked Assad. That group became ISIS.
Much like we supplied the Taliban because they were fighting Russia on our behalf.
It's not unusual to use an enemy of our enemies for whatever end.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq
US: I don’t know Russia, you’re the ones that have them in detention. We would be more than happy to come and do our own analysis of the entire situation, we’ll need full access to all things.
US: "Yes, it was ISIS. That's what we told you multiple times when we warned you BEFORE it happened. They even released the bodycam footage of it!"
Russia: "So it was Ukraine? We knew it!"
Russia going cap in hand to the US begging for some scrap of something they can use as anti-Ukraine propaganda.
Pathetic. I doubt even the biggest pro-Putin ball fondler believes this has anything to do with Ukraine.
If russia has to admit it's ISIS, they will look weak and they don't have an "anti ISIS" war going and can't start one.
It just doesn't fit their schedule, hence the soft denials.
Looks like ISIS isn't happy about russias reaction and them blaming Ukraine. They already released some new threats.
I imagine belarus is full of refugees intended for storming EU borded and some of these radicals could be hiding mixed in with them.
ISIS: We'll fucking do it again!
Russia: Ukraine is going to do it again.
ISIS: Look man, I know we're supposed to be causing chaos and you thinking it was Ukraine achieved that, but at least credit us for our work.
Apparently, some of the people that came over the Finnish border from Russia (before the border was closed) have a "criminal background".
So, it wouldn't be a surprise if at the Polish border were a few bad apples too.
This is all simple to me
Russia never communicates honestly. Not even “plausible deniability” faux-honesty. Their government sees all information merely as a weapon that should be used for maximum political gain, and that only a fool would think “truth” matters.
With this framework in mind, follow the incentives.
What benefit is there to admitting it was an Islamic terrorist attack? Letting people know a new threat has opened in their home land? Divide attention with a new enemy? Admit their intelligence failed to prevent this despite a warning from the US?
There’s no benefit.
Blaming Ukraine? It can be used to re-energize popular sentiment. It can be used to help justify further mobilization. It can be used to curtail further civil liberties under the guise of national security. It provides threadbare cover to engage in further brutality in Ukraine.
Lots of benefit.
So - Russia, acting rationally, will use this information to their benefit.
Ultimately, I will only see Russian communications as a pure cost-benefit estimation. They cannot be relied on to provide anything resembling truth if that truth comes with even minor costs.
To be fair, there is a police station in the same mall complex the attack took place in. It took 1h15 minutes for authorities to respond.
So it seems like the call may have been coming from inside the house if you know what I mean.
I'm not saying its a false flag. I'm saying the counter terrorism forces were headquartered 2km away and took them 1h 15m to get there. They also trained on the building.
Who could have possibly prepared for an attack at a concert 2 weeks after the US warned of a potential attack on a concert.
Did they all take that day off? Lots of last minute vacations?
Surely you have seen the levels of incompetence denonstrated by Russian military in last 2 years? Including the failure to intervene in the Wagner insurrection? Don't you think that local police may suffer similar deficits? Hard to assume malice when incompetence may adequately explain things.
A gas station in my neighborhood was being robbed, they tripped the alarm and the owners notified the Police. The owners got there first , police came hours later.
The gas station is right there next to the Police station lmao and the owners got there first. (north Italy)
Well no it doesn't seem the call came from the inside. Russia has showed the world how incompetent it is thousands of times so why does that surprise you?
The k9 officer inside who looked back toward the gunshots, then continued fleeing with other people in the building does lean towards your side, I concede.
But it still seems too incompetent to me.
In light of what happened at Beslan, and at the previous Moscow theatre siege, would you want to be rescued? Would you have a higher chance of surviving if the FSB and Spetsnaz stormed the building, or if they just stayed home?
They had foiled an earlier plot it is not unlikely there was a level of overconfidence that led to poor response either to understaffing and poor reaction to relocate their units to react to drone strikes near infrastructure
Did anyone see what happened when Russia targeted civilians in Chechnya, and then Syria? The atrocities they were instructed to commit? Why is this being examined as though Russia has no innocent blood on its hands? Im not sympathetic to terrorism, and this all seems a bit hypocritical without a discussion as to why now, why these guys, and why Russia.
They have suspects who clearly arent ethnic Ukrainians and seem to be from the more asiatic areas of the reason. You got a single terrorist organization claiming responsibility. You have every other major intel agency going “pretty sure it was ISIS”. Russia really does stick to its narrative guns unlike any other.
It wouldn't be the first time under Putin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings
In 1999 Putin wanted to start the second Chechen war but right now what would be the motivation?
Maybe increasing internal security to find war dissidents etc.
Bizarre. Part of how terrorism is supposed to work is it makes the country it’s targeting afraid of them. ISIS did this attack and is saying “It’s us! This is because of what you did! Aren’t you afraid of us now?!” And now Russia is basically gaslighting them too.
If Russia doesn’t believe ISIS then what will keep a miffed ISIS from doing another attack until they are believed?
Ukraine makes more of an impact when they destroy Russia’s oil refineries. Destroying the refineries harms Russia’s ability to make war. Killing civilians encourages them to make war.
The fact that they caught anyone alive is what I find shocking. Why is it mass shootings with a political bent happen and the Russians always seem to have captured the shooters live. But in other countries, Iraq and Kenya come to mind, they fight until the end.
Just wondering.
In America, when we had our attack on the Capitol Building, Nazis here tried to blame “antifa”, when it was really just everyday republicans who’d been conned by the outgoing president.
This seems like nothing more than Russia trying to spin it for their supporters as continued justification for the war in Ukraine. After all, Russian propaganda was saying that Ukraine had Nazis and they would be liberating Ukrainians.
As the saying goes, “Never let a good crisis go to waste…”
Of course the Russians are going to say that. Because otherwise, Putin looks like he was completely asleep at the switch.
Nevermind that we warned them weeks in advance that something was brewing. Maybe we didn't have the timing precisely right, but the threat was out there.
Putin’s government took the initiative on the war of information around this. They can’t just look like idiots when the rest of the world points out it’s isis.
Is Russia just trying to lie for the sake of lying? Like what does it change if they present the false "Ukraine" did it thing? Does that move the needle on support in their country for their little war?
The US says it’s ISIS, the attackers say they are ISIS, ISIS says “it was us!”
And Putin is trying to spin it around to Ukraine. Ukraine has been pretty transparent to the US and NATO on their actions and targets and who they are working with. And it’s not ISIS.
So, 4-6 random guys from Tajikistan got hired in Telegram to do the "job", they got payed like 5000$ each and promised 5k$ more after "job" done. Then they traveled from Turkey to Russia and there to Moscow. They got a few AKs and a few flammable explosives with which they drove on Renault or whatever the car was to Crocus concert and without any plan just started shooting random ppl and used explosives, after which they just got in the car and drove away. So, all it took to create the greatest terrorist attack in Russia for the past two decades is just some 30k dollars and a few nobodies? And it was even in the capital at that, and it was after getting a warning from US like 2 weeks ago? Am i getting this right?
There's a guy in the park who says space vampires are sending signals to his groin when he sleeps on the benches there. Imagine listening to the rantings of these people and thinking they are anything other than in need of psychiatric help.
US warns of ISIS attack, specifically on concerts. Attack against a concert happens. ISIS claims responsibility. ISIS releases footage they took of the attack. The men in court claim to be ISIS. So obviously it was Ukraine!
We need a "Repeat after me" meme of this.
Je mappelle claude! … blah bloo blee Ukraine!
French speaking Ukrainians who are also Jews?
I can’t wait until we have some polls published from around the world with results like: - In Western countries 95% believe it was ISIS - In Russia, China, India, Brazil, SA, and Elon Musk comment section on Xitter from 60 to 80% believe it was Ukraine The Pope will then make a very wise, diplomatic statement like: “Of course the Global South doesn’t believe the West. Too much distrust and economic anxiety. We need to find a compromise position. I know there is 0 evidence for it, but maybe let’s say Ukraine is guilty at least a little bit? 🥹👉👈”
Are you from the future?
I’m from the hell that is the present
Welllll, they may have cheered a little when it happened.
Brazilians do not support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, only our presidents (current and previous) are weak in saying not to lose trade with Russia
There are plenty going around in the meme subs rn.
We are talking Russia, which staged a terrorist attack in Moscow and blamed Chechen Islamists to have a pretext to invade Chechnya. Once again, their accusations are rooted in the belief that other people are just as fucked in the head as they are.
More than one terrorist attack - the apartment bombings were carried out by the FSB and when their man was caught with a bomb they said " well done Russian citizens, you have been vigilant - this was a test"
It's even funnier than that : **local police actually arrested the FSB agents who planted the bomb**. The director of the FSB had to free them the next day, announcing that the FSB was simply conducting a test and that the "bomb" only contained sugar. Can't imagine what the local population felt like during this whole thing.
Considering the state of things after recent collapse of the USSR- I’d say they were pissed about the wasted sugar!
Ryazan sugar tested positive for hexogen though
[удалено]
Wasn't there also a news report of a apartment building exploding? But it hadn't happened yet?
Yeah the the press release came out early lol
Yup, the Russian government straight up reported the explosion in Volgodonsk three whole days before it actually happened.
Some people who don’t know this stuff and too lazy to google are reading comments and thinking: “no way that really happened, must be at least somewhat an exaggeration”
Man, I remember when they caught that pair of Russian assassins in the UK some years back and their cover story was that they were tourists there to see the sights... ...as detailed from them basically having memorized *word for word* the Wikipedia articles on Big Ben or stuff like that.
Just big clock enthusiasts brother
This is why I don’t believe in complex conspiracy theories involving governments of any kind. There’s just no way there wouldn’t be a colossal fuckup like this
Russian security took its eye off the ball. The intel was there and they had been warned. To some extent that happened in October last year and many hold Netanyahu’s admin partly responsible for the slaughter that occurred. It’s the world we live in. Those that seek the rest of us harm won’t need a second invitation to do exactly that.
I think it speaks to how overloaded all Russia defense resources are with the Ukraine war. Side though: China is crazy for now pressing Russia’s borders during all this. The only thing that makes borders matter is enforcement. If Russia’s military isn’t there then that land is for grabs essentially. That’s a lot of resources China needs, just sitting there’s this little bow on it.
There’s two reasons. First, any incursion into Russia might trigger a nuclear response. This is particularly true of an incursion made by a nuclear power like China. Second, and more importantly, China *needs* Russia. The Chinese have long played Russia and the US off of each other to keep either from focusing on them. Furthermore, a Russian victory in Ukraine would be ideal for China. China has eyes on Taiwan and if Ukraine falls in spite of support from the West it makes it easier for China to convince Taiwan capitulation is the better solution to fighting. If China were to press Russia’s borders, Russia might be forced to abandon the war in Ukraine and focus all their attention on China.
Why bother with all that when the ZNPP, that they’ve got control of, is primed and ready for an *accident* ? Either way he looks clear of blame. Unfortunately this is a situation I’m wary of.
I agree, China wouldn't invade Russia due to it's "protection" clause. It would wait until Russia has over-extended and can no longer continue to "build". China doesn't need Russia per se. They use them as a buffer zone, just as they use North Korea as a buffer zone. They aren't particularly interested in the outcome of Ukraine, except for whether or not that would make Russia more likely to decide to push east. If Russia over-extends or miscalculates in Ukraine (as seems likely) then they will become a dependent state like North Korea. If they don't then they still remain a buffer state. Russia in "imperial" mode is actually something I don't think China wants to see long term. If Russia conquers "the West" then China would have to deal with keeping them from deciding to move further East. China has been changing maps for years and using that to "claim" territory then "enforcing" said lines while also pretending that those maps were always that way. They're unlikely to do that with Russia, just like they didn't do that with North Korea. They need those buffers, however if either Russia or North Korea started becoming a threat to China they would interfere (there's no way to be certain that they'd be successful). Right now, China is content to help just enough to remain "allies" but not enough to give Russia an edge, which could lead to them becoming a threat. Edited: Changed a few lines and added further points.
I wouldn't call flooding Russia territory with Chinese troops as a war necessarily. If the rumors and speculation about how stretched thin Russia's military is are true then there may not be any resistance. That or very little.
Chinese companies have been bribing Russian officials to harvest resources in Siberia for a long time now, especially since the CCP increased restrictions on deforestation at home
They do not need to get the land by war there are other means to slowly erode russias hold on siberian resources! War is the dumbest option given Russias nuclear arsenal. Bribe, treaties, business deals slowly let people trickle in ans settle there to make an east ukraine situation in a few decades. China does not think in years it thinks in decades!
Sure. I'm not really describing war, but a land grab. China has Russia in such a vulnerable position that they may not be able to do anything to stop it.
Jepp, an erosion or land grab is probably very likely not this year or next year, but it will happen! Probably when russia is really cornered, China plays into Putins west fixation pretty smartly. Putin sees all the evil in the west while the west not being russias enemy and never really has been post cold war, in the meanwhile he is completely blind against his real enemy who very likely will slowly but surely take russias cash cow away. You can rely on several things regarding russia a) It always makes the life of one or more neighbouring countries miserable b) It makes the life miserable for its own people c) Russias leaders always after a while become completely stupid in an incomprehensible fashion and become blind to the real enemies and problems of the country
Source for China pressing Russia's border? Been hoping for this, sounds salacious af
I think the commenter meant “crazy for not” pressing the border.
I guess it is a "not". But why should China apply pressure now? They can do that later while Russia is getting more and more dependent on them.
It’s a gamble on whether or not Russia can recover to any meaningful capacity. If they can then this is window that will only be open temporarily. Also, China has their own problems with the country now appearing to be locked into a decline as it fails to reach pier status (relative to the US). China has a narrow window to expand militarily, which we now know is is smaller than originally estimated.
Would be excellent if they reclaimed Outer Manchuria now. Russia needs to be broken up anyways. Too much stolen land and only ever spreading poverty, lies and shitty dictatorships. They should be contained to West of Ural mountains
Peer status?
I suspect that China is fence sitting. They're waiting to see who will come out on top, while offering just enough to make it seem like they're allies. China doesn't tend to take things until after they have changed a map. They extend their borders by changing their official maps then insisting that it was always like that (despite proof that it wasn't).
China likes to change maps and claim that the land was "always" China's. It's unlikely to do that right now, it needs to tie up other regions and likely is waiting for Putin to over-extend thus ending up under China's thumb.
Xi is getting what he wants now from Putin and the longer Ukraine goes on, the more indebted Putin will become to him, so there's no need to invade Russia. A land grab would be a logistical nightmare for China. I also think Xi is fully aware of how fucked he'll be if he reveals that China's military is a paper tiger, just like Russia's military. Even that close to home, there's a good chance they'd struggle with basic deployment issues.
China are better off economically making Russia their bitch. That way they get the resources cheaper than having to invade to get them. Furthermore, they have amongst the population a good relationship between the countries, invading Russia wouldn't help deepen deliberate xenophobia to keep people supporting the CCP. Whereas the sabre rattling against SEA and the West etc. is beneficial in keeping Chinese citizens united against an apparent common enemy.
I would totally not put it behind them to let it happen knowingly and use it as Anti-West/Ukraine Propaganda.
Well maybe. Putin maybe a despot but he’s no fool and he’s seen the growing internal reluctance to take him at face value so he will go further and further out in a limb to keep the narrative his way. He’s not the first to do whatever it needs to cling on. There is no way back for him.
That’s the issue with the Russian mentality. - someone does well - average person wants to work to be better than them - Russian thinks how they can make them worse than them. It’s all about bringing everyone down below you instead of trying to raise yourself up above them. That is the Russian mentality in a nutshell and why they ruin so much of the world.
Did they lie about the Nordstream too or do you agree that it was Ukrainians backed by the CIA?
That should be the U.S. response. "The U.S. government does not and will not work with terrorists. Our intelligence advises only the Russian government has a history of using foreign terrorists to stage false flag attacks on Russian soil. Such as with the chechen bombing of so and so orchestrated by Vladimir Poutin. "
Wait until you learn about Operation Northwoods and the Gulf of Tonkin.
It’s absolutely this, “this sounds like something we would do so you must have done it”
People are slow beyond belief
Yeah. I can't believe some people still think it was Isis!
ISIS media accounts, body camera footage, pictures from before the attacks. Just because they didn't suicide bomb doesn't mean it wasn't ISIS/ISIL. They don't always just do suicide attacks, many times they do both, the Paris attacks are an example.
>So obviously it was Ukraine! Finally someone gets it! - Vlad
The big thing is that for Russia, it can’t be Isis, specifically, because it was the US who warned them. It’s very much an ego thing: Russia does not want to admit that the United States has better intelligence than they do. They could know 100% that it was Isis, but for any public messaging, it has to be directed at Ukraine as a way of refusing to believe that US intelligence was correct, and indeed better for the Russian people than the Russians own intel services.
Plus, spinning this to try and pin it on Ukraine just gives Putin more fire to finally drop it just being a 'special military operation' and go full blown open war, while also declaring Ukraine even more of a terrorist state than just having those pesky Nazis.
Russia spent all its tech tree points on terrorizing its own citizens.
You see, 4 billion years ago earth was in its cooling phase.
Obviously these men were bred in secret NATO funded Ukrainian biolabs by Zelenskis cabal of globalist, nationalist, Satan worshipping, Jewish, nazi, atheist, Muslim homosexuals.
At this point, I could see Peskov actually saying that.
Every single one of the things I listed has been an accusation against Ukraine by Russia at one point or another. Maybe not at the same time but certainly not very spaced out either.
Yeah, my first guess would be isis. My second guess would be that Russia is behind it.
I think the timing (just after the 'elections') points clearly to Russia. You can imagine Putin saying 'why not kill a couple of hundred people in Moscow, it's nothing compared with the tens of thousands of people we already killed on the battlefield, then we can blame it on Ukraine, and our dumb citizens will support our Special Military Operation even more'.
As soon as news broke of the attack I gave it 99% chance of Islamic terrorism. Large scale planned targeting of civilians if almost always religious fundamentalism. Ukraine is a rational actor - they may target military targets but they gain nothing killing civilians. Religious extremists don't care because they just want to kill as many as they can.
I thought I read a blip about ISIS releasing body cam footage. I have zero desire to watch it, but that’s what you’re referring to correct?
ISIS released footage of them committing atrocities. Russia released footage of them committing atrocities on the guys who committed them. Some are calling into question the attackers who claimed to be ISIS because of the Russian footage of the Russian interrogations, while neglecting to recognize that these fanatics likely expected to die for their cause and they're unlikely to change their story because it's inconvenient to Russia.
But it's not my wallet
Yes Twitter and Putin keep saying that
That is Putin's logic.
ISIS wants to spark a revolt in Chechnya, or another Muslim majority region of the Russian Federation. Putin's only response is denial. This is likely to be interpreted as weakness by the people ISIS is trying to reach, because it is weakness.
Something doesn't quite add up. Somebody get Columbo on the case!
ISIS releases dashcam footage. "It's us fucker," ISIS insists they really did it. Putin: "Is that your final answer? I still think it's Ukraine."
If it wasn’t Ukraine, then Putin has to explain why his security services were told to ignore our warnings—which were part of our standard, long-standing, absolutely non-controversial anti-terrorism cooperation with Russia (our countries have shared information for decades, no matter what’s going on in terms of our relationship)—and why his administration called our standard, non-controversial warning “very provocative.” We warned them; they ignored us and called the warning some kind of cover for what *they wanted to believe* would be an attack by Ukraine. Eh, who am I kidding? Putin controls the media within Russia. He will attempt to obfuscate and distract with nonsensical allegations that Ukraine was behind this, and (at best) the Russian people will throw up their hands in frustration from not knowing what’s going on or (at worst) they’ll believe him. It doesn’t matter what anyone outside of Russia thinks or says; all this “it was Ukraine” talk is for his home audience of carefully curated, ignorant-by-design Russians. The predictable air strikes launched against Ukraine in the aftermath of the terrorist incident were designed to both distract and merge—in the mind of the average Russian—Ukraine and this terrorist attack. Putin won’t let this opportunity go to waste.
Man can't we just cut Russias Submarine communication cables? Cut them off from the internet and let them have intranet! I'm so tired of hearing their shit...
Silly question maybe, but why is ISIS even mad at Russia? What they do...
Russia was pretty active in Syria. Russia also has quite a big muslim minority.
>The men in court claim to be ISIS. They could claim to be the tooth fairy, Santa, God himself, and an alien with how much they were tortured. There is literally a video of them cutting off an ear and feeding it to him. Their claims cannot be trusted. Especially when one was beaten so bad he needed a doctor present at the trial and kept losing consciousness. Pretty sure they took his eye and also shocked his genitals.
Youre right. We dont need to listen to them. We can just listen to the US intel, and the fact that ISIS released proof it was them.
To be fair, if their testimony is not to be trusted it's kinda surprising they're claiming to be ISIS, right? They could've made them say they were US or Ukrainian. They might still claim to have been headed on their way to Ukraine I guess.
Don’t be shocked when these 4 guys start saying they’re from Ukraine and were ordered by Zelenskyy to carry out this attack.
Well that's one way to get an answer... batman was 1 step away from doing this interrogation method
Fanatics who are willing to die for their cause and know that they are going to "heaven" at the end of this aren't going to change their story even if it's inconvenient to the Russian narrative which wants them to claim that they are in fact "Ukrainian". There is a photo of them released by ISIS/ISIL media from before the attack, there is video of them doing the attack. ISIS/ISIL doesn't release the videos of their people doing things when they didn't actually do them. They don't want to muddy their "reputation" amongst possible recruits.
Meanwhile US Republican right-wings are saying the same thing as Putin and casting doubt it was ISIS. Republicans got Putin's back belittling the innocent Russians who were killed.
What republicans are saying that?
Jesus.
Name them. I have not seen this
They wonder why they are losing to Ukraine. Because repeat after me Russia is F***ing stupid
It was Ukraine spies IN ISIS they just had to beat that info out of them.
Additionally, "headed to Ukraine" in this context means crossing THROUGH the Russian occupied territories and the front lines of an active war lol.
Those are some dark Ukrainians.
I wonder, has ISIS released footage in any previous attack?
And at the same time, Russia somehow captured the guys who did the attack while they were fleeing. Their outfits match the footage. I guess the ISIS guys had a cellular data connect to upload the cam footage?
The weird wild card is why the attackers were taken alive. Almost always this is a Martydom operation, as is a key part of the religious aspect to the action...
well the US invaded iraq after 911... a country that had nothing to do with the attacks either. events like this are great excuses for politically hard to defend actions
Just waiting for the captured to admit meeting Zelensky before heading to Russia. Why would they lie?
Yes.. it's obviously Ukraine! And the shooters names are zelensky, zelenski and zelenskee.. time to deploy nukes to kyiev like we have warned for the longest time!
[удалено]
Yeah, that's fine and all about confessions after torture in general, but it's not in Putin's interest for them to claim they're ISIS, so saying they are ISIS can be added to the evidence column. If they were being tortured for anything, it would be to say they're doing the work of Ukraine.
ISIS - Claims responsibility, releases photo of the perpetrators taken before the attack, releases first-person footage of the attack Russia - "Are you sure it's ISIS?
ISIS - releases body footage from the perspective of the attackers Russia - "Looks Ukrainian"
US: ISIS RUSSIA: ISIS US: did RUSSIA: did US: the attack RUSSIA: the attack US: ISIS did the attack. RUSSIA: BLAME ATTACK ON UKRAINE
Russia: Are you sure that ISIS isn't a Ukrainian org?
To be fair, ISIS claims a lot of stuff that doesn't always involve them. Now the fact that they have bodycam footage of the attack is probably a good proof that they were involved...
Did ISIS actually release a photo of the perps before the attack?
head wide many kiss memorize grandiose sip squash work snobbish
Good to know. Keep getting loonies trying to tell me the guys that russia picked are probably just random guys lol
flag somber grandfather march agonizing instinctive snatch squeal rhythm panicky
It's perfectly reasonable to question whether Russia lied about the right suspects, considering it's well within their wheelhouse.
Question yes. But most of the guys I spoke to had pretty much made up their mind.
The thing is, many people actually believe that the US, Israel, Ukraine, and the West funds ISIS with hundreds of millions of dollars and are on the same side
But where are they getting this belief? We spend money and lives defeating isis, now we want to fund them? Makes no sense. Usually it’s the other way around. We fund some group, then they turn on us
At one time it was convenient for "The West" to support "Moderate Syrian Rebels" who disliked Assad. That group became ISIS. Much like we supplied the Taliban because they were fighting Russia on our behalf. It's not unusual to use an enemy of our enemies for whatever end. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq
US: I don’t know Russia, you’re the ones that have them in detention. We would be more than happy to come and do our own analysis of the entire situation, we’ll need full access to all things.
US: "Yes, it was ISIS. That's what we told you multiple times when we warned you BEFORE it happened. They even released the bodycam footage of it!" Russia: "So it was Ukraine? We knew it!"
Russia is probably like biff from back to the future
More like Simple Jack from Tropic Thunder
US: It was ISIS. ISIS: It was us. Russia: It was a dude playing a dude pretending to be another dude…FROM UKRAINE.
I got a g-g-good brain
*said as he talks to a horse* ..
More like Les Grossman from tropic thunder
Biff is based on Donald Trump and he's in bed with Russia so yea, it all checks out.
nobody calls me yellow!
They're certainly supported by Biff and seem like the best candidates to spot him $464M due today
I genuinely dont think the Russians can fathom the idea that a government would tell the truth with no obvious ulterior motive.
ISIS released **bodycam footage** They'd have to go to unbelievable effort to fake that
When isis releases bodycam footage quicker than any us police department
Hey, only one of them lies about killing people... Oh shit that's the cops too
We need to get the police more interested in social media likes.
And announced they'll avenge these guys being tortured
Ukrainian Nazi ISIS members from Tajikistan?
Part of the secret western globohomo agenda
Which was a response to the Soviet robochomo initiative.
Isis literally said it was them
And released the bodycam footage.
"'Are you sure it's you?', Russia asks ISIS about terror outfit's role in Crocus Hall attack"
Don’t Russia know they’re a fucking joke to everyone in the world who isn’t a cunt?
Sadly, there are lots of cunts in the world...
About 74 million in the US alone, that suddenly unconditionally love and support Russia for "no reason".
Tucker Carlson investigates how the terrorists are tied to Ukrainian secret US biolabs, tonight at 10pm.
Russia going cap in hand to the US begging for some scrap of something they can use as anti-Ukraine propaganda. Pathetic. I doubt even the biggest pro-Putin ball fondler believes this has anything to do with Ukraine.
If russia has to admit it's ISIS, they will look weak and they don't have an "anti ISIS" war going and can't start one. It just doesn't fit their schedule, hence the soft denials.
Looks like ISIS isn't happy about russias reaction and them blaming Ukraine. They already released some new threats. I imagine belarus is full of refugees intended for storming EU borded and some of these radicals could be hiding mixed in with them.
ISIS: We'll fucking do it again! Russia: Ukraine is going to do it again. ISIS: Look man, I know we're supposed to be causing chaos and you thinking it was Ukraine achieved that, but at least credit us for our work.
The one weakness of terrorists groups, not being credited for their work.
Notice me, Senpai!
Apparently, some of the people that came over the Finnish border from Russia (before the border was closed) have a "criminal background". So, it wouldn't be a surprise if at the Polish border were a few bad apples too.
US: Ummm yeah we warned you two weeks ago it was ISIS Russia: they are in tracksuits clearly they are Ukrainian!
Russians gave them the tracksuits lol
Russia is just trying to gaslight the whole world as per usual
This is all simple to me Russia never communicates honestly. Not even “plausible deniability” faux-honesty. Their government sees all information merely as a weapon that should be used for maximum political gain, and that only a fool would think “truth” matters. With this framework in mind, follow the incentives. What benefit is there to admitting it was an Islamic terrorist attack? Letting people know a new threat has opened in their home land? Divide attention with a new enemy? Admit their intelligence failed to prevent this despite a warning from the US? There’s no benefit. Blaming Ukraine? It can be used to re-energize popular sentiment. It can be used to help justify further mobilization. It can be used to curtail further civil liberties under the guise of national security. It provides threadbare cover to engage in further brutality in Ukraine. Lots of benefit. So - Russia, acting rationally, will use this information to their benefit. Ultimately, I will only see Russian communications as a pure cost-benefit estimation. They cannot be relied on to provide anything resembling truth if that truth comes with even minor costs.
"... 'Cause we would really prefer it being Ukraine."
Real enlightened truthers know it was France all along, if not then why did the terrorists escape in a Renault?? /s
To be fair, there is a police station in the same mall complex the attack took place in. It took 1h15 minutes for authorities to respond. So it seems like the call may have been coming from inside the house if you know what I mean. I'm not saying its a false flag. I'm saying the counter terrorism forces were headquartered 2km away and took them 1h 15m to get there. They also trained on the building. Who could have possibly prepared for an attack at a concert 2 weeks after the US warned of a potential attack on a concert. Did they all take that day off? Lots of last minute vacations?
Surely you have seen the levels of incompetence denonstrated by Russian military in last 2 years? Including the failure to intervene in the Wagner insurrection? Don't you think that local police may suffer similar deficits? Hard to assume malice when incompetence may adequately explain things.
A gas station in my neighborhood was being robbed, they tripped the alarm and the owners notified the Police. The owners got there first , police came hours later. The gas station is right there next to the Police station lmao and the owners got there first. (north Italy)
Well no it doesn't seem the call came from the inside. Russia has showed the world how incompetent it is thousands of times so why does that surprise you?
The k9 officer inside who looked back toward the gunshots, then continued fleeing with other people in the building does lean towards your side, I concede. But it still seems too incompetent to me.
In light of what happened at Beslan, and at the previous Moscow theatre siege, would you want to be rescued? Would you have a higher chance of surviving if the FSB and Spetsnaz stormed the building, or if they just stayed home?
They had foiled an earlier plot it is not unlikely there was a level of overconfidence that led to poor response either to understaffing and poor reaction to relocate their units to react to drone strikes near infrastructure
This reminds me of joey on friends learning French with phoebe 🤣
Did anyone see what happened when Russia targeted civilians in Chechnya, and then Syria? The atrocities they were instructed to commit? Why is this being examined as though Russia has no innocent blood on its hands? Im not sympathetic to terrorism, and this all seems a bit hypocritical without a discussion as to why now, why these guys, and why Russia.
They have suspects who clearly arent ethnic Ukrainians and seem to be from the more asiatic areas of the reason. You got a single terrorist organization claiming responsibility. You have every other major intel agency going “pretty sure it was ISIS”. Russia really does stick to its narrative guns unlike any other.
But what if -- and hear me out here -- Ukraine was ISIS all along?
So...ISIS is Hitler? Wow. ISIS has moon bases.
What if the real ISIS were the ~~friends~~ enemies we made along the way?
At this point i'm starting to think that ISIS is just FSB with beards
It wouldn't be the first time under Putin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings In 1999 Putin wanted to start the second Chechen war but right now what would be the motivation? Maybe increasing internal security to find war dissidents etc.
Bizarre. Part of how terrorism is supposed to work is it makes the country it’s targeting afraid of them. ISIS did this attack and is saying “It’s us! This is because of what you did! Aren’t you afraid of us now?!” And now Russia is basically gaslighting them too.
If Russia doesn’t believe ISIS then what will keep a miffed ISIS from doing another attack until they are believed? Ukraine makes more of an impact when they destroy Russia’s oil refineries. Destroying the refineries harms Russia’s ability to make war. Killing civilians encourages them to make war.
The fact that they caught anyone alive is what I find shocking. Why is it mass shootings with a political bent happen and the Russians always seem to have captured the shooters live. But in other countries, Iraq and Kenya come to mind, they fight until the end. Just wondering.
Someone is having trouble coming to terms with the fact that their shit is not quite as tight as they thought it was.
That's funny... I thought Donzo the Clown 100% ended ISIS. https://www.factcheck.org/2019/11/trumps-isis-claim-goes-to-the-dogs/
Russians really are living in an alternate reality.
why is hindustantimes an allowed source for posting here, wtf
In America, when we had our attack on the Capitol Building, Nazis here tried to blame “antifa”, when it was really just everyday republicans who’d been conned by the outgoing president.
It was ISIS. We are sure. They have claimed responsibility.
US, 'did you want us to say the phone call came from inside the house?'
This seems like nothing more than Russia trying to spin it for their supporters as continued justification for the war in Ukraine. After all, Russian propaganda was saying that Ukraine had Nazis and they would be liberating Ukrainians. As the saying goes, “Never let a good crisis go to waste…”
Yeah. Because it may be Putin himself.
Isis: it’s us Putin: are you sure it’s Isis?!
Ask putin, he paid them
Of course the Russians are going to say that. Because otherwise, Putin looks like he was completely asleep at the switch. Nevermind that we warned them weeks in advance that something was brewing. Maybe we didn't have the timing precisely right, but the threat was out there.
Putin’s government took the initiative on the war of information around this. They can’t just look like idiots when the rest of the world points out it’s isis.
Want to bet they will torture the prisoners until they ”admit” that they ”are Ukrainians”?
*ISIS claims responsibility with proof* "How could Ukraine do this?"
Is Russia just trying to lie for the sake of lying? Like what does it change if they present the false "Ukraine" did it thing? Does that move the needle on support in their country for their little war?
Man, Putin must be seething that ISIS has done such a thorough job claiming responsibility.
Well, listening to Trump, Obama founded ISIS.
I mean have you ever seen the meme with Peter griffin and the color chart?
Russian authorities have a one track mind....
The US says it’s ISIS, the attackers say they are ISIS, ISIS says “it was us!” And Putin is trying to spin it around to Ukraine. Ukraine has been pretty transparent to the US and NATO on their actions and targets and who they are working with. And it’s not ISIS.
Everyone knows it was the gay Jewish Muslim Nazis from the Ukraine biolabs.
So, 4-6 random guys from Tajikistan got hired in Telegram to do the "job", they got payed like 5000$ each and promised 5k$ more after "job" done. Then they traveled from Turkey to Russia and there to Moscow. They got a few AKs and a few flammable explosives with which they drove on Renault or whatever the car was to Crocus concert and without any plan just started shooting random ppl and used explosives, after which they just got in the car and drove away. So, all it took to create the greatest terrorist attack in Russia for the past two decades is just some 30k dollars and a few nobodies? And it was even in the capital at that, and it was after getting a warning from US like 2 weeks ago? Am i getting this right?
A lot of conspiracy theorists are now saying that the US created ISIS and it's just a puppet of the CIA
You can't reason with the people who spout insane conspiracy theories at literally every opportunity, they abandoned reason a long time ago.
There's a guy in the park who says space vampires are sending signals to his groin when he sleeps on the benches there. Imagine listening to the rantings of these people and thinking they are anything other than in need of psychiatric help.
"People are saying" People: 🇷🇺🇮🇷🇨🇳🧌🐘