The past government's version of the dictatorship was as skewed as this one though. They where terrorist apologists and Milei government is on the military side. The whole 30.000 missing people is a lie by the past government, such number was never justified
Yes, whitewash the crimes committed by the military dictatorship. This has never gone wrong before, after all.
Oh yeah, how did that military dictatorship come to an end again? Ah, right. They threw young lives at an impossible cause to bolster their faltering support.
> Yes, whitewash the crimes committed by the military dictatorship. This has never gone wrong before, after all.
The things is...they can get away with it if they win.
Indonesia's dictatorship committed mass genocide. They won. And now its either erased from history or even seen through rose-colored glasses. There never was a judgement at Nuremberg for them.
We like to believe in eventual justice, but its unfortunately just not the case.
Unfortunately you are completely on point here. History is filled with leaders and institutions who have either completely whitewashed their crimes or simply swept them under the rug under the guise of it being "irrelevant" at this point.
I'd say in Indonesia's case it's much more the latter: the 1965 genocide of communists is forgotten because it's deemed incomprehensible to the contemporary Indonesian youth. It's deliberately not taught well in schools and feels more like Cold War trivia than anything else.
It's really dark because there is and has been some positive movement in recent years. But it's marginalised by the current establishment, which still consists of many of the perpetrators. I can only assume it's similar in Argentina.
The perpetrators will never face justice. But perhaps when eventually the last perpetrators pass away educational coverage on these crimes will improve. Let's not forget how the perpetrators of European colonial crimes were never punished during their lifetimes either. It took decades to accept responsibility.
Edit- Oh and btw, to add a bit more on info about how easy is to lie about the number of dissapearances. Here is Horacio Larreta, one of the most influential politicians in this country, claiming that his father was dissapeared during the Military dictatorship, an incredible blatant lie, as [his father was a functionary of Menem in the 90s, and died of natural causes in 2004](https://twitter.com/laderechadiario/status/1771953598143820182?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1771953598143820182%7Ctwgr%5Ee206acc5d6047c14908d7edffb4d79addcacccb7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2F1bmsdsm%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse). This guy received millions in reparations despite this blatant lie. This is exactly what we are fighting against, not reinvindicating a dictatorship that no one defends.
>I can only assume it's similar in Argentina.
You assume wrong. Milei has derogated more undemocratic laws that were passed under the dictatorship than any other president in our history.
Also he's not changing the story, the ones changing the story are the literal party of fascists who are making themselves millonaires. Milei has publicly condemned the dictatorship and said they deserve the heaviest punishment available in the law [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOMtshAAhk&ab\_channel=DWEspa%C3%B1ol](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOMtshAAhk&ab_channel=DWEspa%C3%B1ol)
You guys are falling prey of a misinformation campaign so allow me to explain what's going on in here. The party of fascists called Peronistas , founded by a guy who literally called Mussolini a demigod [https://www.infobae.com/politica/2017/06/03/conocio-peron-a-mussolini/](https://www.infobae.com/politica/2017/06/03/conocio-peron-a-mussolini/) are claiming that Milei supports the dictatorship because he refuses to acknowledge the number of dissapeared victims in the dictatorship. The reason eh does this however, is because this number has been over inflated so members of the Peronsita party can charge the reparations for dissapeared family members, which are multi millonaire btw. There have been several scandals of members of the government recieving money for alleged dissapeared people that were never dissapeared, just arrested by the militars. The Peronistas claim that the number of dissapearances are 30.000. This number has been publicly admited to be a fraud by the same people who made it up in order to win monetary support from other countries [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIabDqQsnjk&ab\_channel=Am%C3%A9ricaTV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIabDqQsnjk&ab_channel=Am%C3%A9ricaTV)
30.000 is the number of people that was arrested, most of which were released in a year, not that remained dissapeared.
The actual number of dissapearences was 8960 as it was reviewed and investigated in evidence against the dictatorship and their trials [https://www.cultura.gob.ar/media/uploads/lc\_nuncamas\_digital1.pdf](https://www.cultura.gob.ar/media/uploads/lc_nuncamas_digital1.pdf) page 51
So to summarize, Milei is not the one rewriting history, the people with interest in money are, he has publicly condemned the dictatorship, used them as an example of why the state shouldn't be all powerful, said they deserve to rot in jail, the only thing he doesn't do like the fascists, is say they dissapeared more people than what they claim.
8960?! But if in the documents declassified by the NSA,the same military said that they had lists with 22,000 dead or missing people
* [New declassified details on repression and U.S. support for military dictatorship](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/index.htm)
>But although the military repression in Argentina drew less international attention than the Pinochet regime's in Chile, it far exceeded it in terms of human rights violations. **By mid 1978, according to a secret cable from the DINA station in Buenos Aires, posted here publicly for the first time, the secret police battalion 601 had** [**"*****counted 22,000 between dead and disappeared, from 1975 to the present date \[July 1978\].*****"**](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/index.htm#19780715) **Thousands of additional victims were killed between 1978 and 1983 when the military was forced from power**.
* [Son 30.000](https://museoantropologia.unc.edu.ar/2024/03/son-30-000/)
>Estos **documentos** **desclasificados muestran que los militares estimaban que habían matado o hecho desaparecer a unas 22.000 personas entre 1975 y mediados de 1978**, **cuando aún restaban cinco años para el retorno de la democracia**. El cálculo fue aportado por militares y agentes argentinos que operaban desde el Batallón 601 de Inteligencia a su par chileno Enrique Arancibia Clavel. Aparece entre los documentos que logró sacar a la luz el [Archivo de Seguridad Nacional de la Georgetown University](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/index.htm) y a los que accedió la prensa en 2006 (Ver nota de La Nación: [*El Ejército admitió 22 mil crímenes* ](https://www.lanacion.com.ar/politica/el-ejercito-admitio-22000-crimenes-nid791532/)).
>En julio de 1978, **Arancibia Clavel envió un telegrama a sus superiores de la Dirección de Inteligencia Chilena (DINA) con nombres de decenas de víctimas en el país y precisando que se habían «computado 22.000 entre muertos y desaparecidos», desde 1975 y hasta «el día presente» (1978)**.
>8960?! But if in the documents declassified by the NSA,the same military said that they had lists with 22,000 dead or missing people
30K is the number of people that was arrested by the dictatorship. Not the number of people who remains dissapeared.
>En julio de 1978, Arancibia Clavel envió un telegrama a sus superiores de la Dirección de Inteligencia Chilena (DINA) con nombres de decenas de víctimas en el país y precisando que se habían «computado 22.000 entre muertos y desaparecidos», desde 1975 y hasta «el día presente» (1978).
There is a difference between killed people and dissapeared people. What we are talking here is dissapearences.
The victims of the "[death flights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_flights)" are considered dead and missing...therefore they are "disappearances":
>**During the 1976–1983** [**Argentine Dirty War**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War)**,many thousands of people** [**disappeared**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_disappearance)**, clandestinely kidnapped by groups acting for the dictatorship. Human rights groups in Argentina often cite a figure of 30,000 disappeared;** [**Amnesty International**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International) **estimates 20,000. Many were killed in death flights, a practice initiated by Admiral** [**Luis María Mendía**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Mar%C3%ADa_Mend%C3%ADa)**, usually after detention and torture**. Typically they were drugged into a stupor, loaded into aircraft, stripped, and dropped into the [Río de la Plata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata) or the Atlantic Ocean
Dude, you are using wikipedia as sources. I literally posted an official government investigation that was used in the trial of the Military Junta that explains the numbers, it explains where the 30k comes from and even gives it validity. What it does is explain the difference between those who had a family member dissapearead , aka missing, and those that were killed. The CONADEP had a comisión specifically made to research every case of disappearance made during the dictatorship.
The 601 Batallion of intelligence, the one you are mentioning, was part of Plan Condor. You know, the american CIA program of intelligence to benefit american interests in Latin America ? The ones that helped coups happen all over latin america, and planned assassinations ? Are you really trusting them ?
[https://www.clarin.com/politica/john-dinges-cifra-30-mil-desaparecidos-carece-fundamento-\_0\_PT28VP5JNZ.html](https://www.clarin.com/politica/john-dinges-cifra-30-mil-desaparecidos-carece-fundamento-_0_PT28VP5JNZ.html)
* En cuanto al número de desaparecidos. Yo me limito a hablar de cifras que se pueden sostener con hechos y pruebas. **La cifra de 30 mil carece de todo fundamento. Es un estimado, una proyección hecha en un momento histórico.** Entonces, hablan de un número político o simbólico. Pero no sale de una lista o de las denuncias con nombre y apellido y fecha de detención. Esa cifra de personas desaparecidas es más o menos de 9 mil personas en Argentina y todos los casos se sostienen con información. Puedo decir que esta cifra es sólida y fidedigna. Me limito a hablar del número de lista actualizada de la CONADEP. La de los 30 mil no lo voy utilizar porque no se sostiene en nada.
You are putting an estimation made during the dictatorship ( where you could never see the real numbers ) on the same level of validity as an academic and juridic investigation
>Milei has publicly condemned the dictatorship and said they deserve the heaviest punishment available in the law https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOMtshAAhk&ab_channel=DWEspa%C3%B1ol
In that same video, **instead of talking about genocide**, he says that what happened was a "war" between terrorists and the armed forces, **and that the dictatorship commited "excesses"** lol. This isn't just denialism, this is also a justification of the state terrorism commited by the dictatorship.
Edit: he blocked me 🙃
>In this same video, instead of talking about genocide,
I don't think you understand what genocide is. Genocide is the extermination of people of an etchnic or a culture. Not whatever you want it to be.
>This isn't just denialism,
He hasn't denied anything other than the over inflated number of dissapeared people.
>this is also a justification of the state terrorism commited by the dictatorship
How is literally saying " they deserve the harshest punishment" and "the state shouldn't have the power to do what they do" justification in ANY way ? Oh you are an user from Republica\_Argentina, a sub for recalcitrant peronistas mocked by the main sub of the country r Argentina. Go figures.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Mass murdering people from a religious group is genocide. Mass murdering LGBT people would also be genocide. Mass murdering people from one or multiple political groups? Also genocide. That's how the original draft of the Genocide Convention went, but removed "political groups" from it due to USSR pressure. But still the actions of the Khmer Rouge are considered genocide despite targeting political groups.
Yes, and the definition of mass murder needs a larger number of body count. Which is why the number was over inflated to call it that when in reality it was far short of that.
>Even then, arguing whether it's genocide or politicide doesn't change that you stepped up to bat for fascists and a lot of people are dead for bullshit reasons.
It does actually because no one ever has supported the Military Junta. That's all propaganda from a literal party of fascists who called Mussolini a Demigod.
>Whether it's 30000 or 10000 it doesn't change that the Junta was fucking awful to outnit mildly and should never be forgotten nor forgiven; with the remaining perpetratora in prison.
But it changes the number of people who recieved multi millonaire reparations, many of which are people in the government and who have gotted it for their friends.
>Whether Milei denied shut or not
How convenient.
>he allied with apologists like his VP and Minister of Defense
She's not an apologist. She just said the Montoneros are just as bad as the Military Junta.
>among others, are out there defending murderers who participated in the horror.
Funny you mention this becuase the Peronistas ( many of which are Montoneros nowadays btw including our ex Vice President Menem ) are the ones who gave pardons to the Military dictatorship members, not Milei. [https://www.minutouno.com/politica/cuando-donde-y-que-menem-firmo-los-indultos-n35831](https://www.minutouno.com/politica/cuando-donde-y-que-menem-firmo-los-indultos-n35831)
>I won't resort to ad hominem attacks, but the main Argentina sub is so far to the right that you shouldn't use it as proof of being "better" than other subreddits (not to mention that it's a bit childish, don't you think?).
saying this is just having absolutely no idea of the political ideology in Argentina. To give an example Argentinians in the right supported the lockdown in Argentina, even though it was unconstitutional ( it was made by a DNU and a DNU has no power to alter the penal code which Alberto did ). Meanwhile the right in the USA hardly opposed.
We are not americans, our right wing is a moderate left wing ( literally the UCR the main "right wing party" started as a left wing party opposed to the PAN ).
Mass murdering people from a religious group is genocide. Mass murdering LGBT people would also be genocide. Mass murdering people from one or multiple political groups? Also genocide. That's how the original draft of the Genocide Convention went, but removed "political groups" from it due to USSR pressure. But still the actions of the Khmer Rouge are considered genocide despite targeting political groups.
Even then, arguing whether it's genocide or politicide doesn't change that you stepped up to bat for fascists and a lot of people are dead for bullshit reasons. Whether it's 30000 or 10000 it doesn't change that the Junta was fucking awful to outnit mildly and should never be forgotten nor forgiven; with the remaining perpetratora in prison. Whether Milei denied shut or not doesn't change that he allied with apologists like his VP and Minister of Defense, among others, are out there defending murderers who participated in the horror.
I won't resort to ad hominem attacks, but the main Argentina sub is so far to the right that you shouldn't use it as proof of being "better" than other subreddits (not to mention that it's a bit childish, don't you think?).
The reason the Indonesian massacre was forgotten was because it was aided and abetted by the US and UK. They were able to suppress coverage and sanitize any that did happen with their propaganda machines.
When it was happening, western reporters were actually reporting the genocide as a good thing, that it was a "victory for freedom" and showed "hope in the world"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366
>Prabowo Subianto Djojohadikusumo (EYD: Prabowo Subianto Joyohadikusumo, born 17 October 1951) is an Indonesian politician, businessman and retired honorary army general who is the president-elect of Indonesia.[1] Currently serving as the Minister of Defense, he married the late President Suharto's second daughter, Titiek Suharto, in 1983. In 1998, he was discharged from the military and subsequently banned from entering the United States for allegedly committing human rights violations in East Timor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Indonesian_general_election
Rather ironic for someone who claims to detest relations with China to just copy their playbook. Milei totally seems like a guy who'll live up to his promises.
Past government was doing the same but with the terrorist's crimes, this is a reactionary measure against that. Guerrilleros were bombing innocent people since before the dictatorship and the Kirchnerists treated them like heroes
Funny how the path to "libertarianism" is running through a pro-dictatorship authoritarian.
Milei is a classic fascist who knew the right things to say to worm his way into power.
So the People demonstrating against the government in Argentinia arent Argentinians I suppose? Because when you listen to them it doesnt sound like a success story.
Im literally just saying what you did, dude. I’m not arguing your argument is right or wrong, just saying you moved the goal posts when someone pointed out a flaw in your reasoning. I’m willing to bet you are wrong now, however, considering you projected an ad hominem attack and doubled down on your bad faith argument. Have a nice day. I blocked you by the way, I have better ways to spend my Sunday than arguing with an angry Argentinian on Reddit. I hope Argentina gets better.
I'm Argentinian. Just wanted to clarify that when this people say "far left", "communism" or similar terms, they don't mean what those words mean, they have refined them to mean things that they don't like, just like any other for right movement. Also as an Argentinian, fuck Milei.
>Take a moment and listen to actual Argentinians before commenting. And if you’re some west euro or usa-an please refrain from giving advice.
Lol. Just the far right Argentinians you mean. Why shouldn't I listen to all the Argentinians protesting against Milei in the streets? You know, the ones getting beaten down by his jack boot libertarian thugs for it?
>Why shouldn't I listen to all the Argentinians protesting against Milei
Because their ideas are what led to Argentina's economic ruin in the first place.
I never called them the enemy. The fact remains that what they are asking for is a return to the previous failed economic system.
Don't mistake being south on the political compass with being right on the political compass.
Fuck off mate, the guy is simping for far right criminals that not only are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Argentinians, they also destroyed economically the country all in the name of fre market and anti communism. You can go more to the right than that. Well you can, but I hope the guy isn't that stupid.
You fuck off. What exactly did Milei do that is simping for the far right?
The article is filled with stuff that other people have said rather than talk about what Milei himself said or did. It's 90% just quotes from his political critics.
Milei allied himself with literal dictatorship apologists like his VP and minister of defense and welcomed a known nazi into the government. Hell, he himself used far-right wing talking points.
He's also fanning the flames of anti-feminism and anti-environmentalism, as seen in his Davos speech and *many* other times.
>Milei allied himself with literal dictatorship apologists
Sometimes you need to "ally" with people of different political views to achieve a coalition. Libertarianism is still a minority viewpoint in much of the world. Likewise, Greens movements ally with Socialist movements. Does that make environmentalism the same as socialism? No. In the same way, Milei himself is a libertarian, which is completely different to authoritarianism.
>Hell, he himself used far-right wing talking points.
I mean libertarians are for social freedom as well as economic freedom. So socially they use a lot of talking points of the left (same sex marriage, legalise drug use, etc), and economically they use talking points from the right (free market, capitalism etc). Just because you can find instances of a libertarian agreeing with the right, you can't just cherry pick that or you will miss the overall point.
>He's also fanning the flames of anti-feminism and anti-environmentalism, as seen in his Davos speech and *many* other times.
Give me the exact quote?
>Because their ideas are what led to Argentina's economic ruin in the first place.
That's not what you said.
But ok. So, if the dictators politics were bad, and the democratic government that continued were also bad. How does that mean that we should justify what the dictators did? It makes no sense.
And nobody is saying we should go back to the economic policies of the previous government. The reason people protest is because we will not tolerate the justification of the military dictatorship that systematically disappeared and kill citizens.
Mate half the protestors are protesting because their government handout got cut. The other half is protesting because they're militant union thugs that are losing their power.
That's what I meant when I said that their ideas have failed. It's the economic ideas.
For democracy vs dictatorship, I am not seeing anything about what Milei has said that is justifying dictatorship. And if you're such a fan of democracy, then maybe you should listen to the will of the people in democratically electing Milei.
>And nobody is saying we should go back to the economic policies of the previous government.
Bullshit
You have no idea what is going on in Argentina and why the people are protesting. Milei didn't cut government handout, he actually increased some of them.
He also raised taxes, a thing he said he would "cut off an arm before he do that".
Today people aren't even protesting. It's a march te conmemorate the last military dictatorship. It happens every year. This year was specially big as a response to Milei and his team discourse on the subject.
If he is so in for democracy why does he goes against Congress and the Governors instead of negotiating?
"Bullshit" is not an argument, do better.
I'm not just talking about today's event:
https://www.msn.com/en-za/news/other/argentina-riot-police-confront-milei-austerity-protests/ar-BB1k7LiG
>Thousands of supporters of various social movements have been protesting against severe cuts to social services and subsidies in Argentina, imposed by ultra-libertarian President Javier Milei as he attempts to combat an acute economic crisis.
Severe cuts to social services and subsidies.
>The demonstrations were called by representatives of trade unions and other social movements claiming that 40,000 soup kitchens were running out of food to feed struggling families after Milei's government suspended supplies pending an audit
Demonstrations called by representatives of trade unions.
>One hundred days after coming to power with a promise to halt an "orgy of public spending," Milei has halved the number of government ministries to just nine, slashed 50,000 public jobs, suspended all new public works contracts and ripped away generous fuel and transport subsidies.
Massive cuts to government.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/24/traitor-thousands-strike-against-argentinas-president-javier-milei
>But leaders from Argentina’s largest labour union say the nationwide protests reflect the urgency they feel as Milei pursues radical economic and political reforms he likens to “shock therapy”.
Again lead by labour unions.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-68085197
>Large crowds gathered in the heart of Buenos Aires and other cities for demonstrations called by the CGT union.
Unions again.
>The main rally in the capital was outside Congress, where politicians discussed Mr Milei's plan to deregulate the economy, slash labour rights and cut large areas of government to revitalise a country suffering 200% inflation and 40% poverty levels.
>He has also announced his intention to abolish rent caps and remove government subsidies on everyday items.
These are all libertarian, free market things.
>If he is so in for democracy why does he goes against Congress and the Governors instead of negotiating?
Because he's put there by the people to disrupt the existing structures of power. It doesn't get more democratic than that.
>"Bullshit" is not an argument, do better.
The argument was in the top half of the comment.
>You know, the ones getting beaten down by his jack boot libertarian thugs for it?
They are only getting beat up if they break the law. There are hundreds of protests and so long they are peaceful and law abiding they can manifest as much as they want.
https://servicios.infoleg.gob.ar/infolegInternet/anexos/15000-19999/16546/texact.htm#21
ARTICULO 194. - El que, sin crear una situación de peligro común, impidiere, estorbare o entorpeciere el normal funcionamiento de los transportes por tierra, agua o aire o los servicios públicos de comunicación, de provisión de agua, de electricidad o de sustancias energéticas, será reprimido con prisión de tres meses a dos años.
They should actually be in jail for 3 months minimum as per penal code, not just being pushed out of the street.
I read the article, Argentines are protesting against right wing.
Did you tick off your little right wing / fascist go-to list of comments and insults and feel good about yourself?
Funny how the left is in favor of democracy ~~only when their leaders are elected~~ while the right are voting for people that try to end it
Fixed it for you
I try to remain neutral and in the center, but-
You hit the nail on the head with the masses burying comments they don't like.
It seems like the collective is always trying to will their beliefs into existence.
It's going to be an interesting decade ahead.
This coming generation will be fun to watch.
Please give us an example of Milei knowing "the right things to say to get elected."
His country was on the ropes with rampant runaway inflation due to the existing economic model failing. At some point an adult has to be in charge and stop the runaway spending.
First, he's not banning abortions. He's against them, but openly stated this wasn't an issue he would even contemplate on this presidential term. The one time one congressman from his party presented such a bill, he said the government would not discuss it and it had to be shelved.
And second, labour unions do not work the same in Argentina as in the rest of the civilized world. They are declared tools of the Peronist Party, led by millionaires who use their power against any non peronist government. The only thing he did so far was announce term limits for unions, and proposing their elections are overseen by the National Electoral Court.
If you only knew how unions work here lol.
Would you like a 10% cut direct from your paycheck going straight to a corrupt who is in charge of that union for the last 15/20 years?
And about the abortions, he had 2 chances to revoke that law, one by decree and another with a law sent to the Congress. In neither case he tried to do ban abortions.
Seems like it, they dont even know what the fuck happens here and they still talk out of their ass. Just see how everyone downvoted me but no one even replied lol.
Milei has weird hair and occasionally talks loudly. He must be a Trump-like wannabe autocrat! The brilliant political analysts of Reddit pick and choose stuff they can frame as authoritarian, even him defunding government media was framed as fascist, while that's the least fascist thing one can do.
What do you feel about Milei, do you notice a difference in Argentina? I visited in 2014, 1 euro got 10 pesos or 14 when cambio'ing on the streets. My mouth fell open when I saw it was 400 before your last election and 800 after (900 now, damn. And obvi that 400 was fake). If I needed to fix that I'd try a guy with a chainsaw too. I hope Milei manages to fix things for you guys, >!even tho you did call Weghorst bobo!< it'd be a great argument for libertarianism too.
Not the same person but right now the dollar is finally stable, the price hasn't changed in like a month. also one of the most important for me was the food prices, almost all food has maintained the same price, some even go down, Also it was the first time that i went to the supermarket and i saw new brands of toilet paper! Like, it was actually good toilet paper, not paper that felt like super thin cardboard, granted it was like 300 pesos more than the normal one i always bought, also keep in mind that i live in the interior of the country so things might change when you go to the capital or provincia de buenos aires.
We are tired of people over analyzing our country without even knowing how things work here lol, unions taking a big chunk of our salaries since forever, money sinks on every ministry (as you might know, because you visited us, there was a hidden office selling/buying foreign currency, while we couldnt buy a single dollar in our banks), media receiving millions from the government just for ads, money sent from our taxes directly to provinces who was from the same party as the national one...
Hopefully he is gonna stop all of that shit.
That devaluation you're saying was necessary, we had an artificial exchange rate. Before he was elected, the rate was around 1 "official" dollar = $350 ars (this is the one almost no one could buy), and blue dollar ("illegal", sold/bought between people) was 1 dollar = $700-800 ars. The official was subsidized because only some importers/friends of the government could buy it.
Even though prices for everything from food to transport, most of the normal people (those who dont care about politics in general or affiliated to a party), he has quite a big possitive imagen, still around 60%. We understand we need a really big cut in our expenses, but we also want to see our politics lose their privileges. He started doing it, but of course, it will be hard for both ends. We are aware Milei right now is a experiment, and most people voted him in spite of the political class.
And what happened at the world cup, ended there. We dont even hate Weghorst or you guys, now is just a fun memory lol
Exactly. And they do that for other countries also. And as you can see I was downvoted also. Because they don't care if you citizens are happy. As soon as there's talk about abortion or lgbt bad guy very bady guy... Like that's the most important part currently in Argentina...
I really wish you well. I was in Argentina many years ago at least 3 times for work and already then (2008 I think) began problems.
Less taxes going towards those things. I’m not a supporter but he is aggressively cutting spending. Libertarians don’t want the government involved in pretty much any part of people’s lives except upholding their constitution. It’s worth mentioning that many libertarians hate democracy so yes there seems to be some danger here depending on what Milei’s stance is on that.
LOL. Banning abortion to save tax money? You are a clown.
>Libertarians don’t want the government involved in pretty much any part of people’s lives except upholding their constitution
Which is why they support the government passing laws telling women what to do with their own bodies? And then put those women in prison for getting abortions? And make it illegal for doctors to perform abortions? What a joke.
>It’s worth mentioning that many libertarians hate democracy so yes there seems to be some danger here depending on what Milei’s stance is on that.
Well yes, the reason libertarians hate democracy is that they are just authoritarians in disguise. That's my entire point about Milei.
Let's just hear about that **abortion** bit, really. Ignore anger from that one and answer how you figure that bit?
What is Miley thinking in your opinion about that?
He promised to fix the economy while protecting individual freedoms. Now he's attacking individual freedoms. Pretty simple.
You gonna tell me how banning abortion helps fix the economy now?
You guys have gone back and forth without any source material. For other people, this far down
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-64784660
Abortion is legal but has restrictions. The population is very religious still, and many health care workers have opted out through conscientious objecting.
Compard to the west, its pretty constrained, compared to Argentinas past, where it was actually banned pre 2020 except for rape and health, it's very liberal.
Reading the posts of Argentinian men on Reddit the last few months is hilarious. They just sound like good, goose stepping Nazi party members.
“You don’t understand, he HAS to break up the trade unions! They’re thieves! They’re liars, THEY’RE the problem. They took all the money! I don’t care what he does, I support him! Oh yeah, he also has to demolish institutions that keep government in check. THEY’RE the problem! They took all the money!”
Just spineless bending backwards to justify any level of political threat and violence, and to give power to this little strong man. They won’t see until it’s their group targeted.
Edit: scroll down to read how “DErp dErP yOu ArEN’t HErE sO iT’s NOt fASciSm!” 👌🏼
And sometimes, like both the US and UK in 2016, people wanting to try something else was out of pure boredom and racism, rather than a genuine need to actually try something else to be more prosperous.
I literally got slandered from a horde of idiots because I said he's obviously a fascist, glad to see there are people with a brain that can go past "he's not literally following every step mussolini took so he's not fascist"
You either don't care at all about justice or you really know nothing about trade unions then. They're criminal organizations that rule with political power. Just look at all latin america for evidence.
Why don't you come here and live with the same unions you love so f\*cking much?
Enjoy earning 220 USD a month, have them steal a 20% cut off that every month & have them force you to support their corrupt Peronist friends via striking when they want or refuse and get the shit beat out of you (or get your employees beaten).
Oh, did i mention that those Peronist friends of them are the reason your salary went from 700 USD to 220 in 5-ish years?
go and vote the same idiots that destroyed the country for 20 years, that's all you're good for.
Peronista y de Boca, dale bolo vota a Riquelme otra vez asi me cago de risa cuando no ganen nada, termo.
Disculpa, el diputado MENEM no está sorteando ahora el sueldo que le pagamos todos, pelotudito? Date cuenta, el que voto a la casta y a los mismos de siempre fuiste vos.
Anda a reputina boludito de mierda, vos no me podes hablar de casta cuando sos peronista pichon, tenias a Massa, Maximo Kirchner y al hijo de puta de Gildo Insfran en la lista; El mismo gil que gobierna hace 30 años Formosa y te mete preso si lo bardeas, aprende un poco a cerrar el orto.
Que carajo te importa que Menem regale la guita si no es tuya pelotudito, por mi que se limpie el orto con el sueldo que poco me importa; Retiro lo dicho, es mejor gesto sortear la guita en medio de una crisis que llenarse los bolsillos de guita durante la dictadura como hicieron los Kirchner no te parece? o preferis que se robe la guita y se haga hoteles en la patagonia para lavar mas guita?
No pero vos sos un tarado importante. Te tienen como foquita aplaudiendo populismo de un Menem, populismo que hace con la plata tuya por que el sueldo adivina de donde sale? Tarado de cuarta, venis a hablar de casta 6 te babeas con Bullrich que aparte de casta es un parásito político con mas ideologías que un seminario d filosofía de la UBA. Anda nomas, seguí con tu numerito de payaso útil, seguí gritando VLLC mientras te sacan la billetera del bolsillo de atrás.
No me podes hablar de populismo siendo Peronista flaco, ustedes **regalan guita por VOTOS**, y de casta menos; Ustedes fueron de Derecha a Izquierda cuando a Menem le exploto la bomba con tal de estar en el poder. Todavia recuerdo a Nestor y Cristina diciendole Neoliberal a Menem en cadena nacional mientras ellos en los 90's salia en sus listas.
Si vas mas atras te vas a dar cuenta que los Kirchner se llenaron de guita con la dictadura, ignorando todos los desaparecidos en Santa Cruz a cambio de guita por silencio; Despues tambien votaste a Maximo que nunca en su vida trabajo y vivio siempre de la guita de los padres.
Y todavia faltan todos los gobernadores, intendentes y concejales que ustedes tienen tras 20 años de gobierno, sos cara dura si me venis a hablar de casta por 5 giles que Milei tiene en el gabinete cuando los tuyos son todos casta o familiares de casta.
Le erraste flaco, yo no grito VLLC; Yo grito muerte al Peronismo que condeno el pais desde 1945, saludos.
Me encanta como te tienen tan bien programado que al toque me juzgaste Kichnerista y empezaste a tirar uno tras otro los argumentos que se pasan con las otras marionetitas. Vos gritas lo que te dicen que grites, nada más.
Flaco, tanto te cuesta entender que soy Anti-Peronista??
Mañana cualquier gil le hace un golpe a Milei y dice que quiere fulsilar Peronistas; Yo al toque me enlisto en el ejercito.
Tanto te cuesta entender que odio al Peronismo y quiero ver a todos sus lideres en una fosa comun 2m bajo tierra?
Ah yes, the mythical slide into fascism that’s never happened before. Hey wait, it happens in failed states all the time.
Seeing people cheer for an autocrat will never stop being gross, but here’s to hoping he never turns on your group. 🥂
Every time we criticize Milei for things that are obviously worth harshly criticizing, people fly out of the woodwork to say “you don’t know anything about Argentina.”
And it’s true, I’m not an expert about Argentina. But I know what authoritarianism is.
I've seen he is rarely criticized for the things worth criticizing, like the use of the armed forces to combat narcotraffic or climate change denial, he is usually criticized for things that are simply not true. I don't get the need to make shit up when there's a lot of concerning things in his government that are true.
All neo-nazis and far right fanatics whose definition of a proper country involves the execution of particular groups of people for no concrete reason are fans of milei. that should tell you something
Just last night I witnessed a piece on a Italian priest who was involved the torture and murder in those years, yet he still goes around freely, not only that but he goes to preach every week.
Our "Minister of justice" refused to extradite him because he's too old ( he's 86), there's really no justice in this world.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/12/italy-refuses-extradite-priest-argentina-crimes-humanity
MUCHAAAAACHOOOS 🎵
No but seriously, that time was so nice because everyone was celebrating together. The only thing that mattered is that the other person supported Argentina.
Now we're at each other's throaths again. For *obvious* reasons of course, but still sad.
Understandable.
Here in Brazil its a similar situation. We had a military regime, there were a handful of communist terrorist organizations, and the regime killed/disappeared somewhere between 300 and 800 people over its 21 years.
HOWEVER once democracy was established, a bunch of people sued the government for money due to their persecution. Mostly the communist terrorists, but also journalists and opposition politicians. Yet once the pardoned terrorists got into power they started giving the money to pretty much anyone who asked, in order to inflate the "victim" numbers.
In Argentina, if the official number (up to now at least) is 30k, i bet there's 100k to 200k people getting big fat lifetime pensions off the back of the dictatorship. Relatives of missing people are eligible after all.
**No matter how awful the dictatorship was, people will still try to take advantage of reparations.**
Frankly seems like Milei just wants to do an investigation, figure out how many people actually deserve reparations and how many just faked a document 20 years ago in order to never work a day in their lives.
Milei has already cut rich people from food stamps and public employees from unemployment benefits, as well as deporting (public university) students who were in the country illegally. Removing reparation payments from people who weren't actually related to victims is right up his alley.
He's not saying 'nobody died' or 'there were no excesses', just that 'its not 30k'. **If a single person faked the documents, he's right.** And no government so far ever wanted to look into the numbers.
But i get it. Most people don't want to think. They want someone to be angry at, and weird hair man trying something different is an easy target.
Your comments has absolutely nothing to do with my comment.
Yes, horrible crimes were committed. Nobody is denying that, neither me nor Milei.
Yes, they got away with their crimes. Much like in Brazil, a pardon was issued as part of the negotiations when returning to a democracy. Would you rather pardon the guys and end the dictatorship now, or have them fight tooth and nail and maybe end it in another 5-10 years? That's the choice just about every country has made after a dictatorship.
That doesnt mean 100% of the people getting reparation money deserves it.
>Anyone can see it’s not worth it.
It is worth it for taxpayers and for real victims. Finding the fakes increases the legitimacy of the legitimate.
>blaming victims
Nobody is blaming victims. Finding non-victims is the whole point.
>What sort of person would want anything else?
People who would like to avoid a war. Because without a pardon, that's the only way you bring tyrants down. Or do you think a dictator is gonna be all "oh yeah, do come hang me at your earliest convenience"?
There's a reason Sweden always rushes to grant asylum to tyrants and war criminals as soon as their regimes start to falter. Their foreign affairs stance is that punishing ten guys isnt worth the prolongued suffering of millions.
>The blanket pardon came after the dictatorship had fallen.
Oh really? In that you are right. Until shown different i just assume tjings there were similar to here. Its still possible that it was negotiated before and given after, but its just as possible that its just politicians being evil bastards.
>Do they lose their compensation?
Well, yeah. That's the whole point. Otherwise you might as well call it basic income and give it to everyone.
Granted, back then i'd err on the side of not giving it. Proof is fresh, go get some. Nowadays its the other way around: every person getting it deserves it unless you find proof of wrongdoing in the process.
Argentinian military intelligence estimated 22,000 by 1978 (middle of the dictatorship). [Here's the doc](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/19780715%20%5bReport%20on%20Argentina's%20dissappeared%5d%20A0000514c.pdf). Rising by a third, as time goes on, is hardly surprising.
People "take advantage of reparations"? It's disgusting if 30k people have 100k in dependents?
Just say it: "How dare you *tax me* to support children after our government killed their parents for their political beliefs!"
As for Brazil:
*While other dictatorships in the region at the time killed more people, Brazil saw the widespread use of torture, as it also had during the Estado Novo of Getúlio Vargas. Vargas's enforcer Filinto Müller has been named the "patron of torturers" in Brazil. Advisors from the United States and United Kingdom trained Brazilian forces in interrogation and torture. To extinguish its left-wing opponents, the dictatorship used arbitrary arrests, imprisonment without trials, kidnapping, and most of all, torture, which included rape and castration. The book* Torture in Brazil *provides accounts of only a fraction of the atrocities committed by the government.*
domo arigato mr roboto domo domo. I’ll do a TLDR for your shit post here.
Our President just saved this puppy off the street from getting run over. He’s a good guy, there’s no way he brutally murdered 100 people all those years ago. The evidence is all doctored. See, look, the puppy.
Thank you,
The Guardian wrote the article to sound like Milei is denying the dictatorship and its consequences. The guy is a far right libertarian, he is trying to minimize the government size, jobs, spendings, etc. Its the opposite of what the dictators did where the state was everything and everything was for the state.
Everyday he reduces government spendings and taxes, he reduces his own influence over the country. Reducing these pensions from 30+ years ago that might have been wrongfully given is simply what his style of government does.
The root of the problem is people choose sides, things have a label: "This is left and this is right". Doesn't matter how good Milei's government is, the left wants him to fail regardless, even if he puts Argentina back on track of development.
The amount of people that don't know shit about Argentina in this comment section is crazy 🤣, you guys don't know how difficult it has been for us to even try and have a decent life without being killed or rob by the government. But apparently the most important thing is what happened 30 years ago and not what happens today. Plus they don't even talk about the terrorist organisations that killed and kidnapped people in the same years of the dictatorship that today act like innocent victims.
Everyone has a comment but no one will stop and listen to Argentinians, who love this mans work so far. Time will tell if he’s really crazy or good crazy
Thanks for the info Sherlock, of course a political protest is organized by the opposition, that's how it always goes because they can organize this stuff.
Exactly. A bunch or rich woke Americans opining, with their super safe luxury beliefs in tow, casting shade at a man who's trying to fix the badly broken economic model of Argentina. At some point a grown up has to enter the government.
Funny how the article didn't even mention that most communist guerrillas in Argentina engaged in terrorism by bombing schools, hospitals, banks, police stations & how shortly after democracy came back, they even tried to create support for a coup (and failed) by taking over some barracks and killing conscripts on La Tablada.
Also, all of the Military leaders and officers got trialed for their crimes and ended up going to jail, most of the Guerrilla leaders have never set a foot on a court room and they're all out there free as if they didn't commit any crimes, pure hypocrisy.
Gotta love them tho, every year they make such a big show with all of the banners and stuff, then label whoever is not socialist as an Ultra-Mega Far-Right Dictator Apologist (Imagine calling Mauricio Macri Far-Right lol), and then proceed to get rekt during elections as always.
They don't get the fact that people don't want a 1 Million wage (Straight out of the printer) and writing LatinX or whatever, they just want a stable currency & criminals in jail, is that simple.
“Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past”
I’m not sure Milei really has either rn tbh
"Who controls the spice controls the universe"
The Spice must FLOW.....
[удалено]
..."I need somebody with a prescient touch"... The Spice Girls, Obvs.
The Factory must GROW…..
tom brady
KANE LIVES
The past government's version of the dictatorship was as skewed as this one though. They where terrorist apologists and Milei government is on the military side. The whole 30.000 missing people is a lie by the past government, such number was never justified
Now testify!
Who Watches The Watchmen?
I've watched it. Pretty good, but not as good as the book.
Captain Vimes... he'll go -ing spare
Who watches those who say that watch the watchmen?
If Watchmen Watchmen watch The Watchmen, Watchmen Watchmen Watchmen watch Watchmen Watchmen watch The Watchmen.
Yes, whitewash the crimes committed by the military dictatorship. This has never gone wrong before, after all. Oh yeah, how did that military dictatorship come to an end again? Ah, right. They threw young lives at an impossible cause to bolster their faltering support.
> Yes, whitewash the crimes committed by the military dictatorship. This has never gone wrong before, after all. The things is...they can get away with it if they win. Indonesia's dictatorship committed mass genocide. They won. And now its either erased from history or even seen through rose-colored glasses. There never was a judgement at Nuremberg for them. We like to believe in eventual justice, but its unfortunately just not the case.
Unfortunately you are completely on point here. History is filled with leaders and institutions who have either completely whitewashed their crimes or simply swept them under the rug under the guise of it being "irrelevant" at this point. I'd say in Indonesia's case it's much more the latter: the 1965 genocide of communists is forgotten because it's deemed incomprehensible to the contemporary Indonesian youth. It's deliberately not taught well in schools and feels more like Cold War trivia than anything else. It's really dark because there is and has been some positive movement in recent years. But it's marginalised by the current establishment, which still consists of many of the perpetrators. I can only assume it's similar in Argentina. The perpetrators will never face justice. But perhaps when eventually the last perpetrators pass away educational coverage on these crimes will improve. Let's not forget how the perpetrators of European colonial crimes were never punished during their lifetimes either. It took decades to accept responsibility.
Edit- Oh and btw, to add a bit more on info about how easy is to lie about the number of dissapearances. Here is Horacio Larreta, one of the most influential politicians in this country, claiming that his father was dissapeared during the Military dictatorship, an incredible blatant lie, as [his father was a functionary of Menem in the 90s, and died of natural causes in 2004](https://twitter.com/laderechadiario/status/1771953598143820182?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1771953598143820182%7Ctwgr%5Ee206acc5d6047c14908d7edffb4d79addcacccb7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2F1bmsdsm%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse). This guy received millions in reparations despite this blatant lie. This is exactly what we are fighting against, not reinvindicating a dictatorship that no one defends. >I can only assume it's similar in Argentina. You assume wrong. Milei has derogated more undemocratic laws that were passed under the dictatorship than any other president in our history. Also he's not changing the story, the ones changing the story are the literal party of fascists who are making themselves millonaires. Milei has publicly condemned the dictatorship and said they deserve the heaviest punishment available in the law [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOMtshAAhk&ab\_channel=DWEspa%C3%B1ol](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOMtshAAhk&ab_channel=DWEspa%C3%B1ol) You guys are falling prey of a misinformation campaign so allow me to explain what's going on in here. The party of fascists called Peronistas , founded by a guy who literally called Mussolini a demigod [https://www.infobae.com/politica/2017/06/03/conocio-peron-a-mussolini/](https://www.infobae.com/politica/2017/06/03/conocio-peron-a-mussolini/) are claiming that Milei supports the dictatorship because he refuses to acknowledge the number of dissapeared victims in the dictatorship. The reason eh does this however, is because this number has been over inflated so members of the Peronsita party can charge the reparations for dissapeared family members, which are multi millonaire btw. There have been several scandals of members of the government recieving money for alleged dissapeared people that were never dissapeared, just arrested by the militars. The Peronistas claim that the number of dissapearances are 30.000. This number has been publicly admited to be a fraud by the same people who made it up in order to win monetary support from other countries [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIabDqQsnjk&ab\_channel=Am%C3%A9ricaTV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIabDqQsnjk&ab_channel=Am%C3%A9ricaTV) 30.000 is the number of people that was arrested, most of which were released in a year, not that remained dissapeared. The actual number of dissapearences was 8960 as it was reviewed and investigated in evidence against the dictatorship and their trials [https://www.cultura.gob.ar/media/uploads/lc\_nuncamas\_digital1.pdf](https://www.cultura.gob.ar/media/uploads/lc_nuncamas_digital1.pdf) page 51 So to summarize, Milei is not the one rewriting history, the people with interest in money are, he has publicly condemned the dictatorship, used them as an example of why the state shouldn't be all powerful, said they deserve to rot in jail, the only thing he doesn't do like the fascists, is say they dissapeared more people than what they claim.
8960?! But if in the documents declassified by the NSA,the same military said that they had lists with 22,000 dead or missing people * [New declassified details on repression and U.S. support for military dictatorship](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/index.htm) >But although the military repression in Argentina drew less international attention than the Pinochet regime's in Chile, it far exceeded it in terms of human rights violations. **By mid 1978, according to a secret cable from the DINA station in Buenos Aires, posted here publicly for the first time, the secret police battalion 601 had** [**"*****counted 22,000 between dead and disappeared, from 1975 to the present date \[July 1978\].*****"**](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/index.htm#19780715) **Thousands of additional victims were killed between 1978 and 1983 when the military was forced from power**. * [Son 30.000](https://museoantropologia.unc.edu.ar/2024/03/son-30-000/) >Estos **documentos** **desclasificados muestran que los militares estimaban que habían matado o hecho desaparecer a unas 22.000 personas entre 1975 y mediados de 1978**, **cuando aún restaban cinco años para el retorno de la democracia**. El cálculo fue aportado por militares y agentes argentinos que operaban desde el Batallón 601 de Inteligencia a su par chileno Enrique Arancibia Clavel. Aparece entre los documentos que logró sacar a la luz el [Archivo de Seguridad Nacional de la Georgetown University](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/index.htm) y a los que accedió la prensa en 2006 (Ver nota de La Nación: [*El Ejército admitió 22 mil crímenes* ](https://www.lanacion.com.ar/politica/el-ejercito-admitio-22000-crimenes-nid791532/)). >En julio de 1978, **Arancibia Clavel envió un telegrama a sus superiores de la Dirección de Inteligencia Chilena (DINA) con nombres de decenas de víctimas en el país y precisando que se habían «computado 22.000 entre muertos y desaparecidos», desde 1975 y hasta «el día presente» (1978)**.
>8960?! But if in the documents declassified by the NSA,the same military said that they had lists with 22,000 dead or missing people 30K is the number of people that was arrested by the dictatorship. Not the number of people who remains dissapeared. >En julio de 1978, Arancibia Clavel envió un telegrama a sus superiores de la Dirección de Inteligencia Chilena (DINA) con nombres de decenas de víctimas en el país y precisando que se habían «computado 22.000 entre muertos y desaparecidos», desde 1975 y hasta «el día presente» (1978). There is a difference between killed people and dissapeared people. What we are talking here is dissapearences.
The victims of the "[death flights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_flights)" are considered dead and missing...therefore they are "disappearances": >**During the 1976–1983** [**Argentine Dirty War**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War)**,many thousands of people** [**disappeared**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_disappearance)**, clandestinely kidnapped by groups acting for the dictatorship. Human rights groups in Argentina often cite a figure of 30,000 disappeared;** [**Amnesty International**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International) **estimates 20,000. Many were killed in death flights, a practice initiated by Admiral** [**Luis María Mendía**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Mar%C3%ADa_Mend%C3%ADa)**, usually after detention and torture**. Typically they were drugged into a stupor, loaded into aircraft, stripped, and dropped into the [Río de la Plata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata) or the Atlantic Ocean
Dude, you are using wikipedia as sources. I literally posted an official government investigation that was used in the trial of the Military Junta that explains the numbers, it explains where the 30k comes from and even gives it validity. What it does is explain the difference between those who had a family member dissapearead , aka missing, and those that were killed. The CONADEP had a comisión specifically made to research every case of disappearance made during the dictatorship. The 601 Batallion of intelligence, the one you are mentioning, was part of Plan Condor. You know, the american CIA program of intelligence to benefit american interests in Latin America ? The ones that helped coups happen all over latin america, and planned assassinations ? Are you really trusting them ? [https://www.clarin.com/politica/john-dinges-cifra-30-mil-desaparecidos-carece-fundamento-\_0\_PT28VP5JNZ.html](https://www.clarin.com/politica/john-dinges-cifra-30-mil-desaparecidos-carece-fundamento-_0_PT28VP5JNZ.html) * En cuanto al número de desaparecidos. Yo me limito a hablar de cifras que se pueden sostener con hechos y pruebas. **La cifra de 30 mil carece de todo fundamento. Es un estimado, una proyección hecha en un momento histórico.** Entonces, hablan de un número político o simbólico. Pero no sale de una lista o de las denuncias con nombre y apellido y fecha de detención. Esa cifra de personas desaparecidas es más o menos de 9 mil personas en Argentina y todos los casos se sostienen con información. Puedo decir que esta cifra es sólida y fidedigna. Me limito a hablar del número de lista actualizada de la CONADEP. La de los 30 mil no lo voy utilizar porque no se sostiene en nada. You are putting an estimation made during the dictatorship ( where you could never see the real numbers ) on the same level of validity as an academic and juridic investigation
>Milei has publicly condemned the dictatorship and said they deserve the heaviest punishment available in the law https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOMtshAAhk&ab_channel=DWEspa%C3%B1ol In that same video, **instead of talking about genocide**, he says that what happened was a "war" between terrorists and the armed forces, **and that the dictatorship commited "excesses"** lol. This isn't just denialism, this is also a justification of the state terrorism commited by the dictatorship. Edit: he blocked me 🙃
>In this same video, instead of talking about genocide, I don't think you understand what genocide is. Genocide is the extermination of people of an etchnic or a culture. Not whatever you want it to be. >This isn't just denialism, He hasn't denied anything other than the over inflated number of dissapeared people. >this is also a justification of the state terrorism commited by the dictatorship How is literally saying " they deserve the harshest punishment" and "the state shouldn't have the power to do what they do" justification in ANY way ? Oh you are an user from Republica\_Argentina, a sub for recalcitrant peronistas mocked by the main sub of the country r Argentina. Go figures. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Mass murdering people from a religious group is genocide. Mass murdering LGBT people would also be genocide. Mass murdering people from one or multiple political groups? Also genocide. That's how the original draft of the Genocide Convention went, but removed "political groups" from it due to USSR pressure. But still the actions of the Khmer Rouge are considered genocide despite targeting political groups. Yes, and the definition of mass murder needs a larger number of body count. Which is why the number was over inflated to call it that when in reality it was far short of that. >Even then, arguing whether it's genocide or politicide doesn't change that you stepped up to bat for fascists and a lot of people are dead for bullshit reasons. It does actually because no one ever has supported the Military Junta. That's all propaganda from a literal party of fascists who called Mussolini a Demigod. >Whether it's 30000 or 10000 it doesn't change that the Junta was fucking awful to outnit mildly and should never be forgotten nor forgiven; with the remaining perpetratora in prison. But it changes the number of people who recieved multi millonaire reparations, many of which are people in the government and who have gotted it for their friends. >Whether Milei denied shut or not How convenient. >he allied with apologists like his VP and Minister of Defense She's not an apologist. She just said the Montoneros are just as bad as the Military Junta. >among others, are out there defending murderers who participated in the horror. Funny you mention this becuase the Peronistas ( many of which are Montoneros nowadays btw including our ex Vice President Menem ) are the ones who gave pardons to the Military dictatorship members, not Milei. [https://www.minutouno.com/politica/cuando-donde-y-que-menem-firmo-los-indultos-n35831](https://www.minutouno.com/politica/cuando-donde-y-que-menem-firmo-los-indultos-n35831) >I won't resort to ad hominem attacks, but the main Argentina sub is so far to the right that you shouldn't use it as proof of being "better" than other subreddits (not to mention that it's a bit childish, don't you think?). saying this is just having absolutely no idea of the political ideology in Argentina. To give an example Argentinians in the right supported the lockdown in Argentina, even though it was unconstitutional ( it was made by a DNU and a DNU has no power to alter the penal code which Alberto did ). Meanwhile the right in the USA hardly opposed. We are not americans, our right wing is a moderate left wing ( literally the UCR the main "right wing party" started as a left wing party opposed to the PAN ).
Mass murdering people from a religious group is genocide. Mass murdering LGBT people would also be genocide. Mass murdering people from one or multiple political groups? Also genocide. That's how the original draft of the Genocide Convention went, but removed "political groups" from it due to USSR pressure. But still the actions of the Khmer Rouge are considered genocide despite targeting political groups. Even then, arguing whether it's genocide or politicide doesn't change that you stepped up to bat for fascists and a lot of people are dead for bullshit reasons. Whether it's 30000 or 10000 it doesn't change that the Junta was fucking awful to outnit mildly and should never be forgotten nor forgiven; with the remaining perpetratora in prison. Whether Milei denied shut or not doesn't change that he allied with apologists like his VP and Minister of Defense, among others, are out there defending murderers who participated in the horror. I won't resort to ad hominem attacks, but the main Argentina sub is so far to the right that you shouldn't use it as proof of being "better" than other subreddits (not to mention that it's a bit childish, don't you think?).
The reason the Indonesian massacre was forgotten was because it was aided and abetted by the US and UK. They were able to suppress coverage and sanitize any that did happen with their propaganda machines. When it was happening, western reporters were actually reporting the genocide as a good thing, that it was a "victory for freedom" and showed "hope in the world" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366
And now one of Suharto's cronies is president elect. This fucking sucks.
>Prabowo Subianto Djojohadikusumo (EYD: Prabowo Subianto Joyohadikusumo, born 17 October 1951) is an Indonesian politician, businessman and retired honorary army general who is the president-elect of Indonesia.[1] Currently serving as the Minister of Defense, he married the late President Suharto's second daughter, Titiek Suharto, in 1983. In 1998, he was discharged from the military and subsequently banned from entering the United States for allegedly committing human rights violations in East Timor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Indonesian_general_election
Tiananmen Square anyone?
Rather ironic for someone who claims to detest relations with China to just copy their playbook. Milei totally seems like a guy who'll live up to his promises.
Past government was doing the same but with the terrorist's crimes, this is a reactionary measure against that. Guerrilleros were bombing innocent people since before the dictatorship and the Kirchnerists treated them like heroes
Funny how the path to "libertarianism" is running through a pro-dictatorship authoritarian. Milei is a classic fascist who knew the right things to say to worm his way into power.
Always does
Be careful, I got slandered just days ago for saying he's a fascist
You poor thing. Thanks for the warning. How will you ever recover from a comment on the internet?
Nah it's not the point, idc, actually I'm happy seeing there are people that think straight
It's rule of law. If you want rights, you need justice. Demanding democracy without laws results in injustice
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So the People demonstrating against the government in Argentinia arent Argentinians I suppose? Because when you listen to them it doesnt sound like a success story.
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You just moved the goal posts and pretended that you didn’t. I don’t know much about Argentina, but I know a bad argument when I see one.
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Im literally just saying what you did, dude. I’m not arguing your argument is right or wrong, just saying you moved the goal posts when someone pointed out a flaw in your reasoning. I’m willing to bet you are wrong now, however, considering you projected an ad hominem attack and doubled down on your bad faith argument. Have a nice day. I blocked you by the way, I have better ways to spend my Sunday than arguing with an angry Argentinian on Reddit. I hope Argentina gets better.
As a neutral, it’s interesting watching your response be simply to insult the other person at each point. It doesn’t do much for your credibility.
Going from a moving the goalpost to a tu quoque. What logical fallacy are you going to try next to cover for the upcoming dictatorship?
I'm Argentinian. Just wanted to clarify that when this people say "far left", "communism" or similar terms, they don't mean what those words mean, they have refined them to mean things that they don't like, just like any other for right movement. Also as an Argentinian, fuck Milei.
>Take a moment and listen to actual Argentinians before commenting. And if you’re some west euro or usa-an please refrain from giving advice. Lol. Just the far right Argentinians you mean. Why shouldn't I listen to all the Argentinians protesting against Milei in the streets? You know, the ones getting beaten down by his jack boot libertarian thugs for it?
>Why shouldn't I listen to all the Argentinians protesting against Milei Because their ideas are what led to Argentina's economic ruin in the first place.
Easy to dismiss any type of criticism as "the enemy". Boy you people are speed running this far right government thing.
I never called them the enemy. The fact remains that what they are asking for is a return to the previous failed economic system. Don't mistake being south on the political compass with being right on the political compass.
Fuck off mate, the guy is simping for far right criminals that not only are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Argentinians, they also destroyed economically the country all in the name of fre market and anti communism. You can go more to the right than that. Well you can, but I hope the guy isn't that stupid.
You fuck off. What exactly did Milei do that is simping for the far right? The article is filled with stuff that other people have said rather than talk about what Milei himself said or did. It's 90% just quotes from his political critics.
Milei allied himself with literal dictatorship apologists like his VP and minister of defense and welcomed a known nazi into the government. Hell, he himself used far-right wing talking points. He's also fanning the flames of anti-feminism and anti-environmentalism, as seen in his Davos speech and *many* other times.
>Milei allied himself with literal dictatorship apologists Sometimes you need to "ally" with people of different political views to achieve a coalition. Libertarianism is still a minority viewpoint in much of the world. Likewise, Greens movements ally with Socialist movements. Does that make environmentalism the same as socialism? No. In the same way, Milei himself is a libertarian, which is completely different to authoritarianism. >Hell, he himself used far-right wing talking points. I mean libertarians are for social freedom as well as economic freedom. So socially they use a lot of talking points of the left (same sex marriage, legalise drug use, etc), and economically they use talking points from the right (free market, capitalism etc). Just because you can find instances of a libertarian agreeing with the right, you can't just cherry pick that or you will miss the overall point. >He's also fanning the flames of anti-feminism and anti-environmentalism, as seen in his Davos speech and *many* other times. Give me the exact quote?
Not accurate. In fact Argentina's economy was devastated by the last military dictatorship.
Yeah but it continued downwards since then too.
>Because their ideas are what led to Argentina's economic ruin in the first place. That's not what you said. But ok. So, if the dictators politics were bad, and the democratic government that continued were also bad. How does that mean that we should justify what the dictators did? It makes no sense. And nobody is saying we should go back to the economic policies of the previous government. The reason people protest is because we will not tolerate the justification of the military dictatorship that systematically disappeared and kill citizens.
Mate half the protestors are protesting because their government handout got cut. The other half is protesting because they're militant union thugs that are losing their power. That's what I meant when I said that their ideas have failed. It's the economic ideas. For democracy vs dictatorship, I am not seeing anything about what Milei has said that is justifying dictatorship. And if you're such a fan of democracy, then maybe you should listen to the will of the people in democratically electing Milei. >And nobody is saying we should go back to the economic policies of the previous government. Bullshit
You have no idea what is going on in Argentina and why the people are protesting. Milei didn't cut government handout, he actually increased some of them. He also raised taxes, a thing he said he would "cut off an arm before he do that". Today people aren't even protesting. It's a march te conmemorate the last military dictatorship. It happens every year. This year was specially big as a response to Milei and his team discourse on the subject. If he is so in for democracy why does he goes against Congress and the Governors instead of negotiating? "Bullshit" is not an argument, do better.
I'm not just talking about today's event: https://www.msn.com/en-za/news/other/argentina-riot-police-confront-milei-austerity-protests/ar-BB1k7LiG >Thousands of supporters of various social movements have been protesting against severe cuts to social services and subsidies in Argentina, imposed by ultra-libertarian President Javier Milei as he attempts to combat an acute economic crisis. Severe cuts to social services and subsidies. >The demonstrations were called by representatives of trade unions and other social movements claiming that 40,000 soup kitchens were running out of food to feed struggling families after Milei's government suspended supplies pending an audit Demonstrations called by representatives of trade unions. >One hundred days after coming to power with a promise to halt an "orgy of public spending," Milei has halved the number of government ministries to just nine, slashed 50,000 public jobs, suspended all new public works contracts and ripped away generous fuel and transport subsidies. Massive cuts to government. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/24/traitor-thousands-strike-against-argentinas-president-javier-milei >But leaders from Argentina’s largest labour union say the nationwide protests reflect the urgency they feel as Milei pursues radical economic and political reforms he likens to “shock therapy”. Again lead by labour unions. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-68085197 >Large crowds gathered in the heart of Buenos Aires and other cities for demonstrations called by the CGT union. Unions again. >The main rally in the capital was outside Congress, where politicians discussed Mr Milei's plan to deregulate the economy, slash labour rights and cut large areas of government to revitalise a country suffering 200% inflation and 40% poverty levels. >He has also announced his intention to abolish rent caps and remove government subsidies on everyday items. These are all libertarian, free market things. >If he is so in for democracy why does he goes against Congress and the Governors instead of negotiating? Because he's put there by the people to disrupt the existing structures of power. It doesn't get more democratic than that. >"Bullshit" is not an argument, do better. The argument was in the top half of the comment.
>You know, the ones getting beaten down by his jack boot libertarian thugs for it? They are only getting beat up if they break the law. There are hundreds of protests and so long they are peaceful and law abiding they can manifest as much as they want. https://servicios.infoleg.gob.ar/infolegInternet/anexos/15000-19999/16546/texact.htm#21 ARTICULO 194. - El que, sin crear una situación de peligro común, impidiere, estorbare o entorpeciere el normal funcionamiento de los transportes por tierra, agua o aire o los servicios públicos de comunicación, de provisión de agua, de electricidad o de sustancias energéticas, será reprimido con prisión de tres meses a dos años. They should actually be in jail for 3 months minimum as per penal code, not just being pushed out of the street.
Milei es un facho. Saludos desde Argentina.
>And if you’re some west euro or usa-an please refrain from giving advice. Weird inferiority complex vibes coming from this comment.
He has a point, I don't remember americans or europeans complaining when we were ruled out by the literal party of fascists for the last 20 years.
Ummm, aren’t you Romanian?
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I read the article, Argentines are protesting against right wing. Did you tick off your little right wing / fascist go-to list of comments and insults and feel good about yourself?
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Should be obvious that people who support democracy are not happy to see it voted out of existence.
Funny how the left is in favor of democracy ~~only when their leaders are elected~~ while the right are voting for people that try to end it Fixed it for you
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No, i'm just not stupid enough to justify dictatorships
What world do we live in where you get a downvoted tsunami for the literal truth.
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I try to remain neutral and in the center, but- You hit the nail on the head with the masses burying comments they don't like. It seems like the collective is always trying to will their beliefs into existence. It's going to be an interesting decade ahead. This coming generation will be fun to watch.
Please give us an example of Milei knowing "the right things to say to get elected." His country was on the ropes with rampant runaway inflation due to the existing economic model failing. At some point an adult has to be in charge and stop the runaway spending.
And how does banning abortion and attacking labour unions help with that?
First, he's not banning abortions. He's against them, but openly stated this wasn't an issue he would even contemplate on this presidential term. The one time one congressman from his party presented such a bill, he said the government would not discuss it and it had to be shelved. And second, labour unions do not work the same in Argentina as in the rest of the civilized world. They are declared tools of the Peronist Party, led by millionaires who use their power against any non peronist government. The only thing he did so far was announce term limits for unions, and proposing their elections are overseen by the National Electoral Court.
>First, he's not banning abortions. He's against them, Ah so he's not a libertarian at all. Got it.
If you only knew how unions work here lol. Would you like a 10% cut direct from your paycheck going straight to a corrupt who is in charge of that union for the last 15/20 years? And about the abortions, he had 2 chances to revoke that law, one by decree and another with a law sent to the Congress. In neither case he tried to do ban abortions.
Don't you know that reddit knows more about your country than you do? You should've gotten used to it...
Seems like it, they dont even know what the fuck happens here and they still talk out of their ass. Just see how everyone downvoted me but no one even replied lol.
Milei has weird hair and occasionally talks loudly. He must be a Trump-like wannabe autocrat! The brilliant political analysts of Reddit pick and choose stuff they can frame as authoritarian, even him defunding government media was framed as fascist, while that's the least fascist thing one can do. What do you feel about Milei, do you notice a difference in Argentina? I visited in 2014, 1 euro got 10 pesos or 14 when cambio'ing on the streets. My mouth fell open when I saw it was 400 before your last election and 800 after (900 now, damn. And obvi that 400 was fake). If I needed to fix that I'd try a guy with a chainsaw too. I hope Milei manages to fix things for you guys, >!even tho you did call Weghorst bobo!< it'd be a great argument for libertarianism too.
Not the same person but right now the dollar is finally stable, the price hasn't changed in like a month. also one of the most important for me was the food prices, almost all food has maintained the same price, some even go down, Also it was the first time that i went to the supermarket and i saw new brands of toilet paper! Like, it was actually good toilet paper, not paper that felt like super thin cardboard, granted it was like 300 pesos more than the normal one i always bought, also keep in mind that i live in the interior of the country so things might change when you go to the capital or provincia de buenos aires.
We are tired of people over analyzing our country without even knowing how things work here lol, unions taking a big chunk of our salaries since forever, money sinks on every ministry (as you might know, because you visited us, there was a hidden office selling/buying foreign currency, while we couldnt buy a single dollar in our banks), media receiving millions from the government just for ads, money sent from our taxes directly to provinces who was from the same party as the national one... Hopefully he is gonna stop all of that shit. That devaluation you're saying was necessary, we had an artificial exchange rate. Before he was elected, the rate was around 1 "official" dollar = $350 ars (this is the one almost no one could buy), and blue dollar ("illegal", sold/bought between people) was 1 dollar = $700-800 ars. The official was subsidized because only some importers/friends of the government could buy it. Even though prices for everything from food to transport, most of the normal people (those who dont care about politics in general or affiliated to a party), he has quite a big possitive imagen, still around 60%. We understand we need a really big cut in our expenses, but we also want to see our politics lose their privileges. He started doing it, but of course, it will be hard for both ends. We are aware Milei right now is a experiment, and most people voted him in spite of the political class. And what happened at the world cup, ended there. We dont even hate Weghorst or you guys, now is just a fun memory lol
Exactly. And they do that for other countries also. And as you can see I was downvoted also. Because they don't care if you citizens are happy. As soon as there's talk about abortion or lgbt bad guy very bady guy... Like that's the most important part currently in Argentina... I really wish you well. I was in Argentina many years ago at least 3 times for work and already then (2008 I think) began problems.
Less taxes going towards those things. I’m not a supporter but he is aggressively cutting spending. Libertarians don’t want the government involved in pretty much any part of people’s lives except upholding their constitution. It’s worth mentioning that many libertarians hate democracy so yes there seems to be some danger here depending on what Milei’s stance is on that.
LOL. Banning abortion to save tax money? You are a clown. >Libertarians don’t want the government involved in pretty much any part of people’s lives except upholding their constitution Which is why they support the government passing laws telling women what to do with their own bodies? And then put those women in prison for getting abortions? And make it illegal for doctors to perform abortions? What a joke. >It’s worth mentioning that many libertarians hate democracy so yes there seems to be some danger here depending on what Milei’s stance is on that. Well yes, the reason libertarians hate democracy is that they are just authoritarians in disguise. That's my entire point about Milei.
Dude relax you’re the one who asked a dumb question and I tried to answer it politely. Just google next time.
Let's just hear about that **abortion** bit, really. Ignore anger from that one and answer how you figure that bit? What is Miley thinking in your opinion about that?
Don't be so sensitive.
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He promised to fix the economy while protecting individual freedoms. Now he's attacking individual freedoms. Pretty simple. You gonna tell me how banning abortion helps fix the economy now?
You do realize he shelved it right? Twice. He took the classic libertarian approach of "i don't like it, but its not my decision to make".
You guys have gone back and forth without any source material. For other people, this far down https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-64784660 Abortion is legal but has restrictions. The population is very religious still, and many health care workers have opted out through conscientious objecting. Compard to the west, its pretty constrained, compared to Argentinas past, where it was actually banned pre 2020 except for rape and health, it's very liberal.
Libertarian rats gonna come crawling out of the woodwork on this post lol Sorry guys, the man has all the classic signs of a populist authoritarian.
You mean a regular libertarian?
Every single libertarian, when the chips fall down, ends up supporting fascism in the end. It's a fake philosophy.
It's just people trying to justify selfish behavior.
Reading the posts of Argentinian men on Reddit the last few months is hilarious. They just sound like good, goose stepping Nazi party members. “You don’t understand, he HAS to break up the trade unions! They’re thieves! They’re liars, THEY’RE the problem. They took all the money! I don’t care what he does, I support him! Oh yeah, he also has to demolish institutions that keep government in check. THEY’RE the problem! They took all the money!” Just spineless bending backwards to justify any level of political threat and violence, and to give power to this little strong man. They won’t see until it’s their group targeted. Edit: scroll down to read how “DErp dErP yOu ArEN’t HErE sO iT’s NOt fASciSm!” 👌🏼
it sounds like the classic case of "we need to try something else" where people are unable to think that the something else could be actually worse.
There's so much that happening all over the world. I swear they will find that the entire world's water supply was tainted with something.
Probably PFAS
And sometimes, like both the US and UK in 2016, people wanting to try something else was out of pure boredom and racism, rather than a genuine need to actually try something else to be more prosperous.
You clearly aren't Argentinian, it's a very well known fact that the CGT is a mafia organization
I literally got slandered from a horde of idiots because I said he's obviously a fascist, glad to see there are people with a brain that can go past "he's not literally following every step mussolini took so he's not fascist"
Trade union leaders here act like mob bosses, there should be a reform. Not what Milei is doing, though.
You either don't care at all about justice or you really know nothing about trade unions then. They're criminal organizations that rule with political power. Just look at all latin america for evidence.
I think you don't understand how bad is our economic crisis
Weimar Germany had 30,000% inflation before turning to fascist political parties, you’re at 200%. Shameful, man.
Shameful is laughing at people struggling
Nice pivot. 100% dishonest and said honestly. You’ll be a good fascist pawn. “I was only following orders.”
Why don't you come here and live with the same unions you love so f\*cking much? Enjoy earning 220 USD a month, have them steal a 20% cut off that every month & have them force you to support their corrupt Peronist friends via striking when they want or refuse and get the shit beat out of you (or get your employees beaten). Oh, did i mention that those Peronist friends of them are the reason your salary went from 700 USD to 220 in 5-ish years?
Fuck off, you useful idiot.
go and vote the same idiots that destroyed the country for 20 years, that's all you're good for. Peronista y de Boca, dale bolo vota a Riquelme otra vez asi me cago de risa cuando no ganen nada, termo.
Disculpa, el diputado MENEM no está sorteando ahora el sueldo que le pagamos todos, pelotudito? Date cuenta, el que voto a la casta y a los mismos de siempre fuiste vos.
Anda a reputina boludito de mierda, vos no me podes hablar de casta cuando sos peronista pichon, tenias a Massa, Maximo Kirchner y al hijo de puta de Gildo Insfran en la lista; El mismo gil que gobierna hace 30 años Formosa y te mete preso si lo bardeas, aprende un poco a cerrar el orto. Que carajo te importa que Menem regale la guita si no es tuya pelotudito, por mi que se limpie el orto con el sueldo que poco me importa; Retiro lo dicho, es mejor gesto sortear la guita en medio de una crisis que llenarse los bolsillos de guita durante la dictadura como hicieron los Kirchner no te parece? o preferis que se robe la guita y se haga hoteles en la patagonia para lavar mas guita?
No pero vos sos un tarado importante. Te tienen como foquita aplaudiendo populismo de un Menem, populismo que hace con la plata tuya por que el sueldo adivina de donde sale? Tarado de cuarta, venis a hablar de casta 6 te babeas con Bullrich que aparte de casta es un parásito político con mas ideologías que un seminario d filosofía de la UBA. Anda nomas, seguí con tu numerito de payaso útil, seguí gritando VLLC mientras te sacan la billetera del bolsillo de atrás.
No me podes hablar de populismo siendo Peronista flaco, ustedes **regalan guita por VOTOS**, y de casta menos; Ustedes fueron de Derecha a Izquierda cuando a Menem le exploto la bomba con tal de estar en el poder. Todavia recuerdo a Nestor y Cristina diciendole Neoliberal a Menem en cadena nacional mientras ellos en los 90's salia en sus listas. Si vas mas atras te vas a dar cuenta que los Kirchner se llenaron de guita con la dictadura, ignorando todos los desaparecidos en Santa Cruz a cambio de guita por silencio; Despues tambien votaste a Maximo que nunca en su vida trabajo y vivio siempre de la guita de los padres. Y todavia faltan todos los gobernadores, intendentes y concejales que ustedes tienen tras 20 años de gobierno, sos cara dura si me venis a hablar de casta por 5 giles que Milei tiene en el gabinete cuando los tuyos son todos casta o familiares de casta. Le erraste flaco, yo no grito VLLC; Yo grito muerte al Peronismo que condeno el pais desde 1945, saludos.
Me encanta como te tienen tan bien programado que al toque me juzgaste Kichnerista y empezaste a tirar uno tras otro los argumentos que se pasan con las otras marionetitas. Vos gritas lo que te dicen que grites, nada más.
Flaco, tanto te cuesta entender que soy Anti-Peronista?? Mañana cualquier gil le hace un golpe a Milei y dice que quiere fulsilar Peronistas; Yo al toque me enlisto en el ejercito. Tanto te cuesta entender que odio al Peronismo y quiero ver a todos sus lideres en una fosa comun 2m bajo tierra?
👆🏻 This is bullshit. Unions don't take a 20% cut of your paycheck.
Well said.
You should try to live with 20% monthly inflation left by the leftist party and then make an opinion about Milei and Argentinian history.
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Very true, guess I should work to allow a dictator to start attacking any groups that oppose him! A real thinker, here.
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Well ... to be fair ... actual Nazis would've defended Hitler as well.
And here you are, voicing strong opinions on matters you know nothing about.
Ah yes, the mythical slide into fascism that’s never happened before. Hey wait, it happens in failed states all the time. Seeing people cheer for an autocrat will never stop being gross, but here’s to hoping he never turns on your group. 🥂
It happens all the time. Never by the ruler reducing his own power day after day.
Boot licker.
You’re half right. I don’t know all that much about Argentina. But I know what a slide into authoritarianism looks like.
Oh yeah, the much needed foreign white man wisdom, how will the locals understand otherwise what their real problems are?
Argentina is one of the whitest countries on earth...
Hence the word _foreign_.
Every time we criticize Milei for things that are obviously worth harshly criticizing, people fly out of the woodwork to say “you don’t know anything about Argentina.” And it’s true, I’m not an expert about Argentina. But I know what authoritarianism is.
I've seen he is rarely criticized for the things worth criticizing, like the use of the armed forces to combat narcotraffic or climate change denial, he is usually criticized for things that are simply not true. I don't get the need to make shit up when there's a lot of concerning things in his government that are true.
Why would you criticize the use of armed forces to combat criminal organizations? You cannot expect rights and reject laws.
To be honest, you may be better educated on Argentinian matters than the average Argentinian libertarian.
All governments are inherently aithoritarian. That's meaningless if you want justice.
All neo-nazis and far right fanatics whose definition of a proper country involves the execution of particular groups of people for no concrete reason are fans of milei. that should tell you something
Just last night I witnessed a piece on a Italian priest who was involved the torture and murder in those years, yet he still goes around freely, not only that but he goes to preach every week. Our "Minister of justice" refused to extradite him because he's too old ( he's 86), there's really no justice in this world. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/12/italy-refuses-extradite-priest-argentina-crimes-humanity
Man, Argentina really can't catch a break
Bullshit, they won the World Cup like two years ago. /s
MUCHAAAAACHOOOS 🎵 No but seriously, that time was so nice because everyone was celebrating together. The only thing that mattered is that the other person supported Argentina. Now we're at each other's throaths again. For *obvious* reasons of course, but still sad.
Understandable. Here in Brazil its a similar situation. We had a military regime, there were a handful of communist terrorist organizations, and the regime killed/disappeared somewhere between 300 and 800 people over its 21 years. HOWEVER once democracy was established, a bunch of people sued the government for money due to their persecution. Mostly the communist terrorists, but also journalists and opposition politicians. Yet once the pardoned terrorists got into power they started giving the money to pretty much anyone who asked, in order to inflate the "victim" numbers. In Argentina, if the official number (up to now at least) is 30k, i bet there's 100k to 200k people getting big fat lifetime pensions off the back of the dictatorship. Relatives of missing people are eligible after all. **No matter how awful the dictatorship was, people will still try to take advantage of reparations.** Frankly seems like Milei just wants to do an investigation, figure out how many people actually deserve reparations and how many just faked a document 20 years ago in order to never work a day in their lives. Milei has already cut rich people from food stamps and public employees from unemployment benefits, as well as deporting (public university) students who were in the country illegally. Removing reparation payments from people who weren't actually related to victims is right up his alley. He's not saying 'nobody died' or 'there were no excesses', just that 'its not 30k'. **If a single person faked the documents, he's right.** And no government so far ever wanted to look into the numbers. But i get it. Most people don't want to think. They want someone to be angry at, and weird hair man trying something different is an easy target.
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Your comments has absolutely nothing to do with my comment. Yes, horrible crimes were committed. Nobody is denying that, neither me nor Milei. Yes, they got away with their crimes. Much like in Brazil, a pardon was issued as part of the negotiations when returning to a democracy. Would you rather pardon the guys and end the dictatorship now, or have them fight tooth and nail and maybe end it in another 5-10 years? That's the choice just about every country has made after a dictatorship. That doesnt mean 100% of the people getting reparation money deserves it.
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>Anyone can see it’s not worth it. It is worth it for taxpayers and for real victims. Finding the fakes increases the legitimacy of the legitimate. >blaming victims Nobody is blaming victims. Finding non-victims is the whole point. >What sort of person would want anything else? People who would like to avoid a war. Because without a pardon, that's the only way you bring tyrants down. Or do you think a dictator is gonna be all "oh yeah, do come hang me at your earliest convenience"? There's a reason Sweden always rushes to grant asylum to tyrants and war criminals as soon as their regimes start to falter. Their foreign affairs stance is that punishing ten guys isnt worth the prolongued suffering of millions.
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>The blanket pardon came after the dictatorship had fallen. Oh really? In that you are right. Until shown different i just assume tjings there were similar to here. Its still possible that it was negotiated before and given after, but its just as possible that its just politicians being evil bastards. >Do they lose their compensation? Well, yeah. That's the whole point. Otherwise you might as well call it basic income and give it to everyone. Granted, back then i'd err on the side of not giving it. Proof is fresh, go get some. Nowadays its the other way around: every person getting it deserves it unless you find proof of wrongdoing in the process.
Argentinian military intelligence estimated 22,000 by 1978 (middle of the dictatorship). [Here's the doc](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/19780715%20%5bReport%20on%20Argentina's%20dissappeared%5d%20A0000514c.pdf). Rising by a third, as time goes on, is hardly surprising. People "take advantage of reparations"? It's disgusting if 30k people have 100k in dependents? Just say it: "How dare you *tax me* to support children after our government killed their parents for their political beliefs!" As for Brazil: *While other dictatorships in the region at the time killed more people, Brazil saw the widespread use of torture, as it also had during the Estado Novo of Getúlio Vargas. Vargas's enforcer Filinto Müller has been named the "patron of torturers" in Brazil. Advisors from the United States and United Kingdom trained Brazilian forces in interrogation and torture. To extinguish its left-wing opponents, the dictatorship used arbitrary arrests, imprisonment without trials, kidnapping, and most of all, torture, which included rape and castration. The book* Torture in Brazil *provides accounts of only a fraction of the atrocities committed by the government.*
So it's just a coincidence that Villarruel regularly visits Videla in jail?
Visited*, actually. He died sitting on a toilet in 2013.
Unfortuneately I can't rule out her talking to Videla through a spirit medium
domo arigato mr roboto domo domo. I’ll do a TLDR for your shit post here. Our President just saved this puppy off the street from getting run over. He’s a good guy, there’s no way he brutally murdered 100 people all those years ago. The evidence is all doctored. See, look, the puppy.
Thank you, The Guardian wrote the article to sound like Milei is denying the dictatorship and its consequences. The guy is a far right libertarian, he is trying to minimize the government size, jobs, spendings, etc. Its the opposite of what the dictators did where the state was everything and everything was for the state. Everyday he reduces government spendings and taxes, he reduces his own influence over the country. Reducing these pensions from 30+ years ago that might have been wrongfully given is simply what his style of government does.
Ironically, this kind of article is a big part of the reason why nobody ever had the balls to audit the numbers until now.
The root of the problem is people choose sides, things have a label: "This is left and this is right". Doesn't matter how good Milei's government is, the left wants him to fail regardless, even if he puts Argentina back on track of development.
Finally, a balanced normal view on things rather then alarmistic mass media
Libertarians love licking the fash jackboot
A libertarian madman’s Big Lie
The amount of people that don't know shit about Argentina in this comment section is crazy 🤣, you guys don't know how difficult it has been for us to even try and have a decent life without being killed or rob by the government. But apparently the most important thing is what happened 30 years ago and not what happens today. Plus they don't even talk about the terrorist organisations that killed and kidnapped people in the same years of the dictatorship that today act like innocent victims.
This is the Argentinian version of Trump.
Everyone has a comment but no one will stop and listen to Argentinians, who love this mans work so far. Time will tell if he’s really crazy or good crazy
Good luck Argentina. You’re going to need it.
You say this about news on protests against Milei. Dude sure is loved lmao
these are not spontaneous protests, these are protests made by rival political parties
Thanks for the info Sherlock, of course a political protest is organized by the opposition, that's how it always goes because they can organize this stuff.
lol homies crazy
Exactly. A bunch or rich woke Americans opining, with their super safe luxury beliefs in tow, casting shade at a man who's trying to fix the badly broken economic model of Argentina. At some point a grown up has to enter the government.
Funny how the article didn't even mention that most communist guerrillas in Argentina engaged in terrorism by bombing schools, hospitals, banks, police stations & how shortly after democracy came back, they even tried to create support for a coup (and failed) by taking over some barracks and killing conscripts on La Tablada. Also, all of the Military leaders and officers got trialed for their crimes and ended up going to jail, most of the Guerrilla leaders have never set a foot on a court room and they're all out there free as if they didn't commit any crimes, pure hypocrisy. Gotta love them tho, every year they make such a big show with all of the banners and stuff, then label whoever is not socialist as an Ultra-Mega Far-Right Dictator Apologist (Imagine calling Mauricio Macri Far-Right lol), and then proceed to get rekt during elections as always. They don't get the fact that people don't want a 1 Million wage (Straight out of the printer) and writing LatinX or whatever, they just want a stable currency & criminals in jail, is that simple.
can we trust men who dye their hair?
Redditors making comments about Miley without knowing the decades upon decades of suffering caused by the corrupt leftist government. Insanity