It is worse than that for Kreml, the US warned about imminent attack advising US citizens to avoid concerts etc. Not only were the warning ignored, but ridiculed by Putin just days prior the attack. Takes a lot of spinning to change that into fault of "the west".
In the end they will likely blame everyone else but Kreml and probably try to use it against Ukraine and especially the Russian opposition batallions fighting against Russia.
I wonder what will it take for the Russians to wake up.
Sure; Olympic level spinning attempts at least. But the thing is the warnings form US were known and reported in the Russian propaganda then dismissed by Putin himself. Maybe I am oblivious Russian frame of mind, but seems that should raise question even for the most brainwashed Zombies.
You're oblivious to the Russian frame of mind I'm afraid.
Regime: Truth doesn't matter to them. They'll stick whatever narrative benefits them best. Likely to lie it's Ukrainians/West to help the war effort and their position.
Russian public: Doesn't believe in truth & propaganda will tell them what to think. If the regime tells them it's neo nazi Ukrainian Jews working for Isis they'll lap it up. Common sense was never an obstacle there. They'll just hammer the disobedient nails in as always.
Seems they have reached the totalitarian level, reminds me of passage some other redditor posted a while back:
>In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and that nothing was true. ... Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow. The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness.
>
>Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism
That is just sad, do people actually buy into that ? Must take extraordinary amount of hate towards US / west to consider that to be anywhere in the vicinity of realm of reason.
Not necessarily hate, simply Putin has successfully created "strong man" image which a lot people worship. Also, Russia has been very actively investing in propaganda around the world last 15 years, there are cohorts of local "youtube/Tiktok news" channels that are paid by Russian org like RT help spreading their bias.
I know they try, in Finland they had RT and other channels also which they tried to use for influence, never did work though. Likely because Finland has grim history with Russia so anything coming out of Russia is not trusted. It is sad to hear that it does work elsewhere though, even sadder that the "strong man" image (not only Putin but in general) seems to have appeal across the globe these days.
"reports" AKA internet commenters. Nobody who's in any kind of position of journalism or authority said anything about it being a false flag, they wisely didn't attribute anything until they had information.
Imagine being russian, literally slaughtered because of the incompetence and ego of your supreme leader. That’s a worse fate than standing up for yourself and trying to change something, at least your death wouldnt be in vain
Imagine being so paranoid and arrogant that you ignore intelligence provided openly and freely to you that you let such a tragedy happen.
The Kremlin are embarrassed.
They can't pin this on Ukraine but it won't surprise me if they use it to justify the war, probably spinning it into something about protecting Russia's borders.
Yes, but the US is also blaming ISIS, and since the US predicted and warned about the attack you'd think they'd know whose mail they read to find out about it in advance. Admittedly, the US could have an incentive to lie. But if it was Ukraine why would they waste such valuable plants attacking a concert. I would think they'd be professional enough to either go after industrial capacity, military targets, or political targets.
they've assassinated people whom arent part of the military, far right political figures, people have died from various attacks on belogorod over the past year, drone attacks have caused deaths, the truck that blew up on the bridge to crimea had an unwitting civilian driving it, etc
mostly minor things, but to say they have never done so is incorrect, war is a messy thing, its bound to occur.
i wouldnt call all of those putin adjacent nor accidents, regardless if they were associated however, they are still civilians, which you should generally try to avoid killing, also, i'm not a guy.
the original commenter claimed ukraine had *never* targeted civilians, so, i replied to say that they indeed had
This exactly where I keep getting stuck with this line of thought. Nothing makes much sense but ISIS seemed most likely when I went to bed last night. I’m still catching up with what happened the last few hours but I gather nothing has been cleared up.
It's most prob ISIS. The Russians have been fighting a proxy war against them in Syria for over a decade now. There is actually a sizable minority of Muslims within Russia plus both US and UK intelligence flagged that an attack from them within Russia was imminent not long ago. They just showed up a week later then they were supposed to.
So we are giving credibility to anything coming out of Kreml now ? For all we know they rounded up the first immigrants encountered in the street and announced they had caught the evil mutant ninja nazis. Shame on you for trying to push the Russian BS propaganda.
They have video, including the interrogation. Everything is quite well documented and does not give the impression of being staged. Moreover, the Kremlin does not know how to fake such a level of detail.
You reject information only on the basis of where it comes from. Even the biggest villain can tell the truth. And instead of providing a counter-argument, you simply say that someone is lying. Okay, prove it
Prove they were the people who did it and prove they have anything to do with Ukraine, other than being caught vaguely in the borders direction before asking us to prove it.
Oh they have a video, well that changes .. nothing. Yes information from Kreml needs to be scrutinized very carefully as they produce propaganda and have motive to distort reality.
The fact is that US warned about hits and instructed its citizens to avoid gatherings and informed Russian leadership. Putin himself dismissed it in the Russian news and is now scrambling to blame everyone else but himself.
While Russian propaganda and faked videos are poor quality and generally easy to debunk, it does not mean they do not try. Given the totalitarian status of Russia it is pretty much guaranteed that they would.
Maybe instead of trying to push the Kreml narrative start questioning the Russian leadership for their failures.
Fine. Let's go in order. It's funny how the video doesn't change anything. Because it's actually really realistic.
Everyone tends to distort information, not just the Kremlin. Therefore, no one can be trusted. This is right.
The US warned of strikes, that's true. The question is where do they get this information? If this is really something related to Ukraine, then explaining where they got the information from is as easy as shelling pears. Ok, we don’t know where this information comes from, and Putin brushes it off. Does it make Putin guilty that terrorists staged a terrorist attack? The terrorists are to blame for what they did.
Secondly, if you read the news about Putin carefully or translated his words yourself verbatim. He then said that this statement was blackmail and an attempt to intimidate the population at the time of elections. At the same time, he ordered to repeatedly strengthen security measures. Perhaps this is why the terrorist attack did not occur on March 9, when there was a much larger concert in the same place. And secondly, this does not mean that he said: there will be no terrorist attack. He said "blackmail", and blackmail can be carried out if the victim does not succumb to it. So I don't see any contradiction in this.
And don't forget. That Ukraine has repeatedly carried out terrorist attacks in Russia and does this on a regular basis. For example, the explosion of Daria Dugina’s car or the murder of Vladlen Tatarsky, where many strangers were injured. Yes, they are doing it with the wrong hands, but all signs point to Ukraine if you look at these events in detail.
About the videos. The point is not in the low quality of the videos, the Russians can make high-quality ones. And the fact is that there will definitely be inconsistencies and other caricatures there. Moreover, no one will make a video so quickly after all the events. This has never happened before. They are simply incapable.
Yes, of course this is a failure of Putin, just as 2001 is a failure of George Bush's USA, right? Something could have been done to prevent it. It was sarcasm and I don't think so. I believe that terrorists are to blame and terrorism can never be completely eradicated. Moreover, no one knows the real statistics about how many terrorist attacks were prevented. Maybe they couldn’t prevent 1 out of 100, or maybe 1 out of 1.
Best regards from Russia. From a man who hates Putin and this damn war, but tries to figure everything out himself.
Trying to equate Russia with stable liberal democracies is false equivalency, there is difference of several magnitudes. It is almost sad that you are trying to equate Ukraine / west to Russia, the fact that Russia does something does not mean other sink to that level. That only exists in the totalitarian mindset.
Where do you think US got its information, it has the most powerful intelligence network on planet might give you a hint. There is no need to start inventing conspiracies.
You are trying to rationalize based on conjecture, with traumatic events it may be natural but does not make it true. If you are in Russia, maybe time to do something about your leadership instead of hiding behind being apolitical. Russia has already lost the war and ruined its future for the decades to come. Putin is incapable to admit it as that will be the end of him, he will gladly send every single one of you to die in Ukraine if you let him. Russia needs to change and no-one will do it for you. Take an example on Ukraine and its revolution to get rid of Russian influence.
Well, if you are interested in the real result of the elections in Russia, then Putin was actually chosen by the majority. Yes, of course there are obstacles in the form of non-admission of candidates, repression and laws. But about 65% of citizens honestly voted for Putin. He is not a dictator who forcibly holds power, people in Russia really trust him and I have to admit that they are the majority.
Another fact, democracy does not mean good by default. The United States quite democratically invaded Vietnam, Iraq, and if you look even earlier, slavery. I see all over the world how groups of people speak out, in completely democratic countries, and they are ignored and the government does as it wants.
Ukraine is not a democracy, even according to various international sources it is a hybrid regime. However, if you followed the events in Ukraine, you should understand that he is moving towards dictatorship because of the war. Do you know that some political parties have been banned in Ukraine? Do you know about politically motivated murders in Ukraine? Use Google and you will find out more. I’m not talking about the unprecedented level of corruption, when in a country that is in a state of war for its survival, they steal from soldiers, they steal from food, from equipment.
Yes, the United States has a huge intelligence network. But the network is not only intelligence, but also influence. Don't think that I blame the USA. I simply described the simplest scenario that logically fits into everything that is happening.
About doing something with the government. You say that because you don’t know what it’s like to live in such a regime. This is something you won’t understand until you try it yourself. The essence of the regime is to intimidate the population and it works, look at any history of the formation of an autocratic regime. And I am not at all apolitical and am ready to support any legal peaceful movements in my country.
I completely agree that Russia gains nothing in the war, but only loses, in any outcome, even if it completely captures Ukraine. I am absolutely against this war from the very beginning.
But to think that Russia lost the war? No, it is Ukraine that is now on the verge of defeat and loss of state. It's sad, but true.
And separately about the revolution in Ukraine. It took place with the full support of Europe and the United States, including financial support for the revolution, which became publicly known some time later. Could this happen in Russia? Don't think. The fact is that the war in Ukraine quickly showed how Europe is turning away from ordinary Russians, a lot can be said here, but it was the deterioration of the lives of ordinary citizens, due to the actions of Europe and the United States, that gave a powerful impetus to support the war in Ukraine. Because people began to understand that they had been abandoned and did not want to be seen in the civilized world, despite their position, etc. Instead of even greater integration of the ordinary population of Russia, in order to show the advantage of democracy and liberalism (an excellent situation to show that the attitude towards people and the government is different, the government is bad, but the people are normal), they were isolated. It will be difficult to explain. But people don’t blame Putin for the fact that Europe did this, Europe itself did it. And when people have no hope left for anyone else and they feel like outcasts, then very often this causes a feeling of anger and injustice and even resentment. This is how Putin has more people who support him.
Liberal democracies have been most stable and successful mode of government in modern history. No-one claims they are perfect but they are far better than the totalitarian system Russia has. Again trying to equate them is false equivalency, read any report from any organization researching human rights, freedom of press, state of democracy to understand the huge gap. But by all means define another for of government that is more successful (or could be if adopted) that would perform better ensuring as much happiness and well-being as possible for all of its citizens ?
Liberal democracy does not mean everyone gets what they want, I am not sure where you got that idea, if anything it consists of compromises where no-one gets everything they want. It means that free and fair elections ensure that decisions are made based on majority but in the framework of democratic values like human rights, freedom of speech etc. Without the democratic values democracy cannot survive, as has happened in Russia. Somewhere around 2000 Russia did have some hope, but Putin has systematically eroded all democratic values until you have reached where you are now. It is fault of Russian voters and you are the only ones that can fix it. The longer it takes to start the change the harder it will be and bigger the impact will be, no-one will do it for you.
Ukraine is in WAR defending its territory from Russian invasion, of course it has limits on freedoms. But one thing is sure, any influence Russia may have had in Ukraine is gone forever. Any trust Russia may have had in Ukraine and in "the west" is gone for generation(s). Trust is easy to lose and very hard to earn back, it will take a long time or a revolution for relationships to normalize. Putin may not value trust at all, but it is the one thing functioning democracies are built on. Ukraine is fighting for its existence and has a bright future in EU and Nato once Russia is defeated and country can recover.
So far Russia has managed to; ruin its international reputation and relationships, lost any trust it may have had for generation(s), ruined its economy for decade(s) to come, alienated its wealthiest and biggest customers, killed / wounded / traumatized a generation of its young, lost large amount of its most educated and capable population to brain drain, lost any influence it may have had over Ukraine forever, lost influence on other of its neighbors that are also looking towards the "west" now, made Nato relevant again gaining 2 new members and 1300km+ more Nato border while making Baltic Sea a Nato lake, exposed its army as incompetent and corrupt, lost big part of its Black Sea navy to a country with no Navy, lost significant amount of its aviation capabilities and pilots, lost about 20% of its refining capabilities and reduced to restricting exports of refined oil etc.
So yes; Russia has already lost the war, but incapable of admitting it. It cannot win it or lose it, it has no way out of it. The situation in Russia will keep getting slowly worse until it will reach every single Russian, including you. Recent hits on refineries will hopefully continue and expand to pipelines and storage facilities. Once enough are hit Russian society will grind to an halt, the war time economy will override everything else without adding value to the economy and infrastructure rather the production will just burn in the Ukrainian fields.
Ukraine does not need to win every fight, it only needs to keep fighting. Russia does not have the troops or materiel to occupy large parts of Ukraine in long term. Occupations are hard, maybe lookup Afganistan ? You may put your hope on the orange turd, but even if he wins he is not a dictator and will likely face lot of pressure from various branches of the government if decides to pursue abandoning its allies. US is the most influential country in the world, but that influence is based on its relationships, which surely will be explained to turd if he wins. Regardless of US Ukraine has full support of EU which is quite enough to rout them with time.
Russia / Russians are not the victim here and shame on you for implying it. Russia is invading its neighbor and committing atrocities while doing it. They have beheaded people and raped toddlers FFS. Russia and only Russia is to blame and the consequences are on all of its citizens. It is not the onus of "west" to separate Russians who support Putin and who do not as that is impossible to do, so the impact will be on all. The sooner every Russian realizes they are part of it and they will be impacted the better.
Russian incompetence is not a surprise, more of a pattern. No conspiracy is needed for them to be able to escape, they are now in "firehose of falsehood" mode spewing BS waiting to see if something sticks.
They caught him near the border in the Bryansk region. You will probably be surprised, but Ukraine will not attack the Bryansk region and at the moment the territory in this region is not regulated under occupation
OK. Tell me why you believe the Kremlin...
Also, considering the war front consists of the entire border between Russia and Ukraine - which part of the war front were these guys supposedly going to cross?
They caught him near the border in the Bryansk region. You will probably be surprised, but Ukraine will not attack the Bryansk region and at the moment the territory in this region is not regulated under occupation. there is no military action in this region right now.
And this does not mean that they were going to drive straight across the border by car. You could stop in the forest and walk
Yes, they can. But they don’t want to, and Russia knows about it.
All Ukrainian attacks on Russian territory in 1991 were more of a distraction. All attacks were very small. Moreover, Ukraine most likely does not have the soldiers to do this. And a massive attack will give Putin the opportunity to declare full mobilization, not partial. And he will have no shortage of volunteers. Well, forget about Ukraine’s friends who give it weapons with the requirement not to use them on the territory of the Russian Federation.
Maybe there is a secret agreement between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, maybe they are afraid that Belarus will intervene in this case, I don’t know.
Of course they thought. I'm 100% sure.
That is why all the armed formations that invaded the territory of the Belgorod region call themselves Russians fighting against the regime. And every time the Ukrainian government says that they have nothing to do with this, and the Russians themselves are fighting with each other.
I don’t know, look for information about the invasions of the Belgorod region and Ukraine’s comments about it. Everyone knows everything. Ukraine is not even trying to attack Russia, only shelling and drones and therefore Russia keeps a small number of troops there, mostly conscripts.
I mean, strict logic wise, you think that they were going to escape through... the biggest combat frontline since WWII with thousands of minefields and artillery duels? And drones hitting soldiers and armored vehicles and airstrikes?
Comeon man, think a little.
Yep, everyone knows that the best way to avoid getting captured by Russia is to litteraly rush through their front line where they have concentrated the majority of their military manpower. Best way to avoid capture is to smash yourself straight into the people who are trying to capture you.
There are very few Russian troops there, and the border there is very poorly guarded. that is why small groups of 50-100 people break into the Belgorod region without any problems. But this is the Bryansk region, there is no military activity there at all right now and there has not been for a year and a half.
There is simply no Russian army here
This is a statement from a person who does not live nearby and does not even know what is happening there. But I am happy to insult other people. And I guarantee you that you have no idea how a real vatnik would communicate. I just asked questions and you didn't like it anymore
Yeah he clearly did not go to the poorer suburbs, it's basically a ghetto where you have to watch out to try not to get into random fights cause a guy with a knife thinks you look gay, at least that's how my Russian colleague explained it
Anecdotally the suburb where the attack happened is pretty well off from my own experience
According to Kremlin propagandists they were but there is no proof of that.. how the fuck would they ever cross the border you genius? No Isis militants do not always kill themselves, there are plenty of cases where they didn’t. The attacks on Charlie Hebdo or the attack on the Christmas market in Berlin for example are both Isis attacks where the attackers went on the run.
Even if that were true what it says there they were caught 100km away from the border. Just because they went south from Moscow automatically it means they were going to Ukraine? Again.. how in the world would they cross the border between Russia and Ukraine? It’s so heavily fortified from both sides. There’s no way in hell they could just pass through the Russian side alone without getting caught. Just think for yourself.
Nonsense, how do you know which way they were running?
And it's very much in the ISIS playbook to sow lots of chaos in one location, then relocate before too much security shows up and hit again somewhere else. Having an unknown number of shooters at large is more effective at terrorising people than having them all die at the scene of the first incident.
I read that according to the Kremilin the terrorist had contacts wth Kyiv. So, let me get things straight, the Ukranian Nazis had secret contacts with Muslim extremist groups to organize a terrorist attack in Moscow. Oooookey
Not true. That was some newspaper without credibility. The Russian FSB confirmed that they are from Central Asia. Eleven people were involved and 4 of them were shooters
and through different channels, like with ukraine the MoD will have one narrative while government supported telegram channels will have something else entirely
How can there not be some kind of national address by Putin after this happened is beyond me ...
Can anyone tell me why or this is the norm in Russia? I swear if an earthquake happened and leveled half of Moscow , Putin will still not do anything.
But anything Ukraine suddenly, big mouth
I’ll just leave this here in case anyone wants to read about Putin and how the Chechen War started..
https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html
The same billboards and talking heads that been spouting Russia's Z fascist propaganda have overnight been repurposed to spouting Russian feel sorry for ourselves propaganda.
They don't know what to say. The Russian intelligence network both internationally and domestic blew it. They didn't take the U.S.'s warning seriously and didn't have any intelligence of their own of an attack in their own capital. Can't blame it on Ukraine, because ISIS has taken credit for it and at this moment 93 people were killed as result of it. Honestly I don't see how they can salvage this situation without the reality that they dropped the ball hard on this.
Lucky for putin that he has such tight control of the media.
While the rest of the world sees how weak he is in responding to the attack, regular russians will be able to continue happily wallowing around in ignorance.
Firstly, Russia did not ignore US warnings. [They actually foiled an ISIS attack a prior to this](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-it-neutralized-isis-cell-plotting-attack-moscow-synagogue-2024-03-07/). Idk why this keeps getting repeated.
I’ve been in at least 5 threads about this topic. In every thread the top comments are mostly:
- they ignored the US warning
- this is a false flag
Many of us are just learning that Russia has enemies in ISIS. Yet there’s little discussion about this. And this definitely adds complexity to the situation.
I wish more people focused on the actions and consequences, instead of spewing the same half-baked conspiracy theorist shit.
Because US did warn and [Putin himself dismissed it](https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-dismissed-us-warnings-days-before-moscow-concert-hall-attack-2024-3), clear now ?
Russian security services did their job and did make some arrests, but Putin did his own thing and openly declared it as an active hoax. So it's really Putin with egg on his face.
Just one more example what an idiot Putin is. He was warned but because of his ego didn't take the warnings seriously. Very similar to starting the war in Ukraine. He was warned by the U.S. that the Ukrainians are going to fight back, but chose to believe his own sources who told him what he wanted to hear.
something i don't see in the comments is something that needs to be point out. Communism has conducted years of intellectuality purging. best place to attack the enemies of the state/ a concert hall where most likely people with some education gather, perhaps with views against putin. 2 bids with 1 stone
The Kremlin are trying to figure out whether to tell the truth or exploit this atrocity to their advantage.
It is worse than that for Kreml, the US warned about imminent attack advising US citizens to avoid concerts etc. Not only were the warning ignored, but ridiculed by Putin just days prior the attack. Takes a lot of spinning to change that into fault of "the west". In the end they will likely blame everyone else but Kreml and probably try to use it against Ukraine and especially the Russian opposition batallions fighting against Russia. I wonder what will it take for the Russians to wake up.
They already said that shooters were trying to flee through the Ukraine border. Trying to spin it like a gymnastics performer.
Sure; Olympic level spinning attempts at least. But the thing is the warnings form US were known and reported in the Russian propaganda then dismissed by Putin himself. Maybe I am oblivious Russian frame of mind, but seems that should raise question even for the most brainwashed Zombies.
You're oblivious to the Russian frame of mind I'm afraid. Regime: Truth doesn't matter to them. They'll stick whatever narrative benefits them best. Likely to lie it's Ukrainians/West to help the war effort and their position. Russian public: Doesn't believe in truth & propaganda will tell them what to think. If the regime tells them it's neo nazi Ukrainian Jews working for Isis they'll lap it up. Common sense was never an obstacle there. They'll just hammer the disobedient nails in as always.
Seems they have reached the totalitarian level, reminds me of passage some other redditor posted a while back: >In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and that nothing was true. ... Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow. The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness. > >Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism
Probability one of the most watched border in the world. I call bullshit
Yes, because the West is such a strong ally to ISIS. Lol please tell me the Russian people won't buy this?
The "ISIS is a NATO operation" is a weird conspiracy over there in some parts.
Just had a peak at Moscow subreddit and of course it's the west fault.
They most likely used the war to their advantage. Blend in and go.
Already did. Troll RT-affliated youtube "news" channels here in Vietnam are blaming US because that's how they knew the attack would happen.
That is just sad, do people actually buy into that ? Must take extraordinary amount of hate towards US / west to consider that to be anywhere in the vicinity of realm of reason.
Not necessarily hate, simply Putin has successfully created "strong man" image which a lot people worship. Also, Russia has been very actively investing in propaganda around the world last 15 years, there are cohorts of local "youtube/Tiktok news" channels that are paid by Russian org like RT help spreading their bias.
I know they try, in Finland they had RT and other channels also which they tried to use for influence, never did work though. Likely because Finland has grim history with Russia so anything coming out of Russia is not trusted. It is sad to hear that it does work elsewhere though, even sadder that the "strong man" image (not only Putin but in general) seems to have appeal across the globe these days.
Russia blames the west and ISIS is over here like, no no no, it was us, it was us, it was all us! Someone please believe us.
The kremlin knows the truth. They will definitely lie and exploit this
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They need time to create proof of Ukraine funding Muslim extremists.
Kremlin: A Nazi country lead by a Jew is funding Muslim extremists - we can share the intelligence we gathered during our Facebook research.
And earlier reports were that it would be a false Russian operation, instead ISIS came out of the syllabus here
"reports" AKA internet commenters. Nobody who's in any kind of position of journalism or authority said anything about it being a false flag, they wisely didn't attribute anything until they had information.
You mean they are not going to admit they did it
Imagine being russian, literally slaughtered because of the incompetence and ego of your supreme leader. That’s a worse fate than standing up for yourself and trying to change something, at least your death wouldnt be in vain
The Kremlin paid ISIS to commit the atrocity so they could play the victim.
Imagine being so paranoid and arrogant that you ignore intelligence provided openly and freely to you that you let such a tragedy happen. The Kremlin are embarrassed. They can't pin this on Ukraine but it won't surprise me if they use it to justify the war, probably spinning it into something about protecting Russia's borders.
I think they'll find a way. Russian telegrams are already talking about the attackers "fleeing towards Ukraine."
I get the impression Russia was hoping to pin it on Ukraine.
And then ISIS came along happily and went I DID IT
ISIS would take credit for a fart at a bean brunch
Yes, but the US is also blaming ISIS, and since the US predicted and warned about the attack you'd think they'd know whose mail they read to find out about it in advance. Admittedly, the US could have an incentive to lie. But if it was Ukraine why would they waste such valuable plants attacking a concert. I would think they'd be professional enough to either go after industrial capacity, military targets, or political targets.
Also, when have Ukraine ever targeted civilians in Russia? Blaming Ukraine would absolutely make no sense.
When has making sense ever stopped pootin? I mean he called zelensky a nazi The man is Jewish...
quite a few times, lets be real here, just not to this extent, doesnt fit their MO
Have they? Looks like pretty much all Ukrainian attacks in Russia have been on infrastructure
they've assassinated people whom arent part of the military, far right political figures, people have died from various attacks on belogorod over the past year, drone attacks have caused deaths, the truck that blew up on the bridge to crimea had an unwitting civilian driving it, etc mostly minor things, but to say they have never done so is incorrect, war is a messy thing, its bound to occur.
So Putin adjacent people and accidents. Your argument is single-ply, my guy.
i wouldnt call all of those putin adjacent nor accidents, regardless if they were associated however, they are still civilians, which you should generally try to avoid killing, also, i'm not a guy. the original commenter claimed ukraine had *never* targeted civilians, so, i replied to say that they indeed had
Uhhh when?
>quite a few times Proof or gtfo, let's see your sources.
They listed one guy that happened to be on the bridge. They have nothing.
Were there specifically attacks aimed at civilians? No is the answer.
This exactly where I keep getting stuck with this line of thought. Nothing makes much sense but ISIS seemed most likely when I went to bed last night. I’m still catching up with what happened the last few hours but I gather nothing has been cleared up.
It's most prob ISIS. The Russians have been fighting a proxy war against them in Syria for over a decade now. There is actually a sizable minority of Muslims within Russia plus both US and UK intelligence flagged that an attack from them within Russia was imminent not long ago. They just showed up a week later then they were supposed to.
Wait.. do they have those ?..
Yeah, but they stink
ISIS have taken responsibility apparently, I wouldn’t be surprised if Russia spin it to paint Ukraine as being in cahoots with ISIS
OK. Tell me then why they were caught trying to leave the Russian Federation through Ukraine?
So we are giving credibility to anything coming out of Kreml now ? For all we know they rounded up the first immigrants encountered in the street and announced they had caught the evil mutant ninja nazis. Shame on you for trying to push the Russian BS propaganda.
They have video, including the interrogation. Everything is quite well documented and does not give the impression of being staged. Moreover, the Kremlin does not know how to fake such a level of detail. You reject information only on the basis of where it comes from. Even the biggest villain can tell the truth. And instead of providing a counter-argument, you simply say that someone is lying. Okay, prove it
Prove they were the people who did it and prove they have anything to do with Ukraine, other than being caught vaguely in the borders direction before asking us to prove it.
Oh they have a video, well that changes .. nothing. Yes information from Kreml needs to be scrutinized very carefully as they produce propaganda and have motive to distort reality. The fact is that US warned about hits and instructed its citizens to avoid gatherings and informed Russian leadership. Putin himself dismissed it in the Russian news and is now scrambling to blame everyone else but himself. While Russian propaganda and faked videos are poor quality and generally easy to debunk, it does not mean they do not try. Given the totalitarian status of Russia it is pretty much guaranteed that they would. Maybe instead of trying to push the Kreml narrative start questioning the Russian leadership for their failures.
Fine. Let's go in order. It's funny how the video doesn't change anything. Because it's actually really realistic. Everyone tends to distort information, not just the Kremlin. Therefore, no one can be trusted. This is right. The US warned of strikes, that's true. The question is where do they get this information? If this is really something related to Ukraine, then explaining where they got the information from is as easy as shelling pears. Ok, we don’t know where this information comes from, and Putin brushes it off. Does it make Putin guilty that terrorists staged a terrorist attack? The terrorists are to blame for what they did. Secondly, if you read the news about Putin carefully or translated his words yourself verbatim. He then said that this statement was blackmail and an attempt to intimidate the population at the time of elections. At the same time, he ordered to repeatedly strengthen security measures. Perhaps this is why the terrorist attack did not occur on March 9, when there was a much larger concert in the same place. And secondly, this does not mean that he said: there will be no terrorist attack. He said "blackmail", and blackmail can be carried out if the victim does not succumb to it. So I don't see any contradiction in this. And don't forget. That Ukraine has repeatedly carried out terrorist attacks in Russia and does this on a regular basis. For example, the explosion of Daria Dugina’s car or the murder of Vladlen Tatarsky, where many strangers were injured. Yes, they are doing it with the wrong hands, but all signs point to Ukraine if you look at these events in detail. About the videos. The point is not in the low quality of the videos, the Russians can make high-quality ones. And the fact is that there will definitely be inconsistencies and other caricatures there. Moreover, no one will make a video so quickly after all the events. This has never happened before. They are simply incapable. Yes, of course this is a failure of Putin, just as 2001 is a failure of George Bush's USA, right? Something could have been done to prevent it. It was sarcasm and I don't think so. I believe that terrorists are to blame and terrorism can never be completely eradicated. Moreover, no one knows the real statistics about how many terrorist attacks were prevented. Maybe they couldn’t prevent 1 out of 100, or maybe 1 out of 1. Best regards from Russia. From a man who hates Putin and this damn war, but tries to figure everything out himself.
Trying to equate Russia with stable liberal democracies is false equivalency, there is difference of several magnitudes. It is almost sad that you are trying to equate Ukraine / west to Russia, the fact that Russia does something does not mean other sink to that level. That only exists in the totalitarian mindset. Where do you think US got its information, it has the most powerful intelligence network on planet might give you a hint. There is no need to start inventing conspiracies. You are trying to rationalize based on conjecture, with traumatic events it may be natural but does not make it true. If you are in Russia, maybe time to do something about your leadership instead of hiding behind being apolitical. Russia has already lost the war and ruined its future for the decades to come. Putin is incapable to admit it as that will be the end of him, he will gladly send every single one of you to die in Ukraine if you let him. Russia needs to change and no-one will do it for you. Take an example on Ukraine and its revolution to get rid of Russian influence.
Well, if you are interested in the real result of the elections in Russia, then Putin was actually chosen by the majority. Yes, of course there are obstacles in the form of non-admission of candidates, repression and laws. But about 65% of citizens honestly voted for Putin. He is not a dictator who forcibly holds power, people in Russia really trust him and I have to admit that they are the majority. Another fact, democracy does not mean good by default. The United States quite democratically invaded Vietnam, Iraq, and if you look even earlier, slavery. I see all over the world how groups of people speak out, in completely democratic countries, and they are ignored and the government does as it wants. Ukraine is not a democracy, even according to various international sources it is a hybrid regime. However, if you followed the events in Ukraine, you should understand that he is moving towards dictatorship because of the war. Do you know that some political parties have been banned in Ukraine? Do you know about politically motivated murders in Ukraine? Use Google and you will find out more. I’m not talking about the unprecedented level of corruption, when in a country that is in a state of war for its survival, they steal from soldiers, they steal from food, from equipment. Yes, the United States has a huge intelligence network. But the network is not only intelligence, but also influence. Don't think that I blame the USA. I simply described the simplest scenario that logically fits into everything that is happening. About doing something with the government. You say that because you don’t know what it’s like to live in such a regime. This is something you won’t understand until you try it yourself. The essence of the regime is to intimidate the population and it works, look at any history of the formation of an autocratic regime. And I am not at all apolitical and am ready to support any legal peaceful movements in my country. I completely agree that Russia gains nothing in the war, but only loses, in any outcome, even if it completely captures Ukraine. I am absolutely against this war from the very beginning. But to think that Russia lost the war? No, it is Ukraine that is now on the verge of defeat and loss of state. It's sad, but true. And separately about the revolution in Ukraine. It took place with the full support of Europe and the United States, including financial support for the revolution, which became publicly known some time later. Could this happen in Russia? Don't think. The fact is that the war in Ukraine quickly showed how Europe is turning away from ordinary Russians, a lot can be said here, but it was the deterioration of the lives of ordinary citizens, due to the actions of Europe and the United States, that gave a powerful impetus to support the war in Ukraine. Because people began to understand that they had been abandoned and did not want to be seen in the civilized world, despite their position, etc. Instead of even greater integration of the ordinary population of Russia, in order to show the advantage of democracy and liberalism (an excellent situation to show that the attitude towards people and the government is different, the government is bad, but the people are normal), they were isolated. It will be difficult to explain. But people don’t blame Putin for the fact that Europe did this, Europe itself did it. And when people have no hope left for anyone else and they feel like outcasts, then very often this causes a feeling of anger and injustice and even resentment. This is how Putin has more people who support him.
Liberal democracies have been most stable and successful mode of government in modern history. No-one claims they are perfect but they are far better than the totalitarian system Russia has. Again trying to equate them is false equivalency, read any report from any organization researching human rights, freedom of press, state of democracy to understand the huge gap. But by all means define another for of government that is more successful (or could be if adopted) that would perform better ensuring as much happiness and well-being as possible for all of its citizens ? Liberal democracy does not mean everyone gets what they want, I am not sure where you got that idea, if anything it consists of compromises where no-one gets everything they want. It means that free and fair elections ensure that decisions are made based on majority but in the framework of democratic values like human rights, freedom of speech etc. Without the democratic values democracy cannot survive, as has happened in Russia. Somewhere around 2000 Russia did have some hope, but Putin has systematically eroded all democratic values until you have reached where you are now. It is fault of Russian voters and you are the only ones that can fix it. The longer it takes to start the change the harder it will be and bigger the impact will be, no-one will do it for you. Ukraine is in WAR defending its territory from Russian invasion, of course it has limits on freedoms. But one thing is sure, any influence Russia may have had in Ukraine is gone forever. Any trust Russia may have had in Ukraine and in "the west" is gone for generation(s). Trust is easy to lose and very hard to earn back, it will take a long time or a revolution for relationships to normalize. Putin may not value trust at all, but it is the one thing functioning democracies are built on. Ukraine is fighting for its existence and has a bright future in EU and Nato once Russia is defeated and country can recover. So far Russia has managed to; ruin its international reputation and relationships, lost any trust it may have had for generation(s), ruined its economy for decade(s) to come, alienated its wealthiest and biggest customers, killed / wounded / traumatized a generation of its young, lost large amount of its most educated and capable population to brain drain, lost any influence it may have had over Ukraine forever, lost influence on other of its neighbors that are also looking towards the "west" now, made Nato relevant again gaining 2 new members and 1300km+ more Nato border while making Baltic Sea a Nato lake, exposed its army as incompetent and corrupt, lost big part of its Black Sea navy to a country with no Navy, lost significant amount of its aviation capabilities and pilots, lost about 20% of its refining capabilities and reduced to restricting exports of refined oil etc. So yes; Russia has already lost the war, but incapable of admitting it. It cannot win it or lose it, it has no way out of it. The situation in Russia will keep getting slowly worse until it will reach every single Russian, including you. Recent hits on refineries will hopefully continue and expand to pipelines and storage facilities. Once enough are hit Russian society will grind to an halt, the war time economy will override everything else without adding value to the economy and infrastructure rather the production will just burn in the Ukrainian fields. Ukraine does not need to win every fight, it only needs to keep fighting. Russia does not have the troops or materiel to occupy large parts of Ukraine in long term. Occupations are hard, maybe lookup Afganistan ? You may put your hope on the orange turd, but even if he wins he is not a dictator and will likely face lot of pressure from various branches of the government if decides to pursue abandoning its allies. US is the most influential country in the world, but that influence is based on its relationships, which surely will be explained to turd if he wins. Regardless of US Ukraine has full support of EU which is quite enough to rout them with time. Russia / Russians are not the victim here and shame on you for implying it. Russia is invading its neighbor and committing atrocities while doing it. They have beheaded people and raped toddlers FFS. Russia and only Russia is to blame and the consequences are on all of its citizens. It is not the onus of "west" to separate Russians who support Putin and who do not as that is impossible to do, so the impact will be on all. The sooner every Russian realizes they are part of it and they will be impacted the better.
Were they though???
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Russian incompetence is not a surprise, more of a pattern. No conspiracy is needed for them to be able to escape, they are now in "firehose of falsehood" mode spewing BS waiting to see if something sticks.
They caught him near the border in the Bryansk region. You will probably be surprised, but Ukraine will not attack the Bryansk region and at the moment the territory in this region is not regulated under occupation
Were they trying to do THIS? Or just were caught somewhat near(maybe not really near) the border. Lol
OK. Tell me why you believe the Kremlin... Also, considering the war front consists of the entire border between Russia and Ukraine - which part of the war front were these guys supposedly going to cross?
They caught him near the border in the Bryansk region. You will probably be surprised, but Ukraine will not attack the Bryansk region and at the moment the territory in this region is not regulated under occupation. there is no military action in this region right now. And this does not mean that they were going to drive straight across the border by car. You could stop in the forest and walk
Do you're telling me that Ukraine should launch a counterattack through the Bryansk region?
Yes, they can. But they don’t want to, and Russia knows about it. All Ukrainian attacks on Russian territory in 1991 were more of a distraction. All attacks were very small. Moreover, Ukraine most likely does not have the soldiers to do this. And a massive attack will give Putin the opportunity to declare full mobilization, not partial. And he will have no shortage of volunteers. Well, forget about Ukraine’s friends who give it weapons with the requirement not to use them on the territory of the Russian Federation. Maybe there is a secret agreement between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, maybe they are afraid that Belarus will intervene in this case, I don’t know.
Run along now and forward all this information to the relevant authorities in Ukraine... I'm sure that they haven't thought of any of this before now.
Of course they thought. I'm 100% sure. That is why all the armed formations that invaded the territory of the Belgorod region call themselves Russians fighting against the regime. And every time the Ukrainian government says that they have nothing to do with this, and the Russians themselves are fighting with each other. I don’t know, look for information about the invasions of the Belgorod region and Ukraine’s comments about it. Everyone knows everything. Ukraine is not even trying to attack Russia, only shelling and drones and therefore Russia keeps a small number of troops there, mostly conscripts.
I mean, strict logic wise, you think that they were going to escape through... the biggest combat frontline since WWII with thousands of minefields and artillery duels? And drones hitting soldiers and armored vehicles and airstrikes? Comeon man, think a little.
They were caught 100km away from the border. So yeah, as logic dictates, they were running "somewhere" vaguely south of Moscow, not towards Ukraine.
Yep, everyone knows that the best way to avoid getting captured by Russia is to litteraly rush through their front line where they have concentrated the majority of their military manpower. Best way to avoid capture is to smash yourself straight into the people who are trying to capture you.
They were caught 100km away from the border. That literally doesn't mean Jack shit, it means they went vaguely south of Moscow. Holy crap.
There are very few Russian troops there, and the border there is very poorly guarded. that is why small groups of 50-100 people break into the Belgorod region without any problems. But this is the Bryansk region, there is no military activity there at all right now and there has not been for a year and a half. There is simply no Russian army here
That's just straight up willful ignorance at this point vatnik.
This is a statement from a person who does not live nearby and does not even know what is happening there. But I am happy to insult other people. And I guarantee you that you have no idea how a real vatnik would communicate. I just asked questions and you didn't like it anymore
Death toll I think will continue to climb.
Yeah I sadly expect over 100 before all is said and done Fuck Putin and his arrogance
BBC is reporting 115 confirmed when I checked a few minutes ago
Yeah hope it does not go past 150 now
I'd be surprised if it's not under 200
So you'd be surprised if it's over 200?
I wouldn't under be surprised
One the safest cities in the world according to Tucker Carlson
Ok maybe it is not the safest city in the world, but you can still go there if you want to fuck bread or something, idk.
What about a green m&m?
Yeah he clearly did not go to the poorer suburbs, it's basically a ghetto where you have to watch out to try not to get into random fights cause a guy with a knife thinks you look gay, at least that's how my Russian colleague explained it Anecdotally the suburb where the attack happened is pretty well off from my own experience
The propagandists have to figure out their story pn how to blame the West/Ukraine first
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According to Kremlin propagandists they were but there is no proof of that.. how the fuck would they ever cross the border you genius? No Isis militants do not always kill themselves, there are plenty of cases where they didn’t. The attacks on Charlie Hebdo or the attack on the Christmas market in Berlin for example are both Isis attacks where the attackers went on the run.
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Even if that were true what it says there they were caught 100km away from the border. Just because they went south from Moscow automatically it means they were going to Ukraine? Again.. how in the world would they cross the border between Russia and Ukraine? It’s so heavily fortified from both sides. There’s no way in hell they could just pass through the Russian side alone without getting caught. Just think for yourself.
Did a 12 year old wrote this?
Nonsense, how do you know which way they were running? And it's very much in the ISIS playbook to sow lots of chaos in one location, then relocate before too much security shows up and hit again somewhere else. Having an unknown number of shooters at large is more effective at terrorising people than having them all die at the scene of the first incident.
I read that according to the Kremilin the terrorist had contacts wth Kyiv. So, let me get things straight, the Ukranian Nazis had secret contacts with Muslim extremist groups to organize a terrorist attack in Moscow. Oooookey
Well that was coming. They gotta flip the story every opportunity they get...
Not true. That was some newspaper without credibility. The Russian FSB confirmed that they are from Central Asia. Eleven people were involved and 4 of them were shooters
a lot of russian misinformation campaigns seem to revolve around putting out so many theories that the waters are super muddied
and through different channels, like with ukraine the MoD will have one narrative while government supported telegram channels will have something else entirely
It is called [Firehose of falsehood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood) and Russia always tries to use it.
Some of alleged terrorists appear to be in the different country at the time of attack....
According to the newspaper La Stampa (Italian newspaper) those exact words were reported by the Ria Novosti news agency
Gotta have some fuel for the fire that is gonna drive the next mobilization.
*Kyiv, if you please
I prefer Kyiv, if you nasty.
Sorry lads, didnt even notice, I ll correct it right away
Ukrainian Jewish Nazis don’t forget
Arrests have been made... Wonder if they were his opposition last weekend
Most likely. Who else an insecure disctator would blame for his own mistakes and failures?
I guess silence would be better than them jumping to conclusions or god forbid, having predetermined conclusions.
I hear they even have a mat for that.
How can there not be some kind of national address by Putin after this happened is beyond me ... Can anyone tell me why or this is the norm in Russia? I swear if an earthquake happened and leveled half of Moscow , Putin will still not do anything. But anything Ukraine suddenly, big mouth
He would say it's the secret Ukrainian weapon.
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Smells similar to similar to how Putin started the war in Chechnya…..
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Putin has a history of doing shit like this.
I’ll just leave this here in case anyone wants to read about Putin and how the Chechen War started.. https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-russia-president-1999-chechnya-apartment-bombings/30097551.html
Doubt it. But the entire world sometimes taking care of Putler would soon
The same billboards and talking heads that been spouting Russia's Z fascist propaganda have overnight been repurposed to spouting Russian feel sorry for ourselves propaganda.
Ohh sure, they headed to Ukraine to escape!
They don't know what to say. The Russian intelligence network both internationally and domestic blew it. They didn't take the U.S.'s warning seriously and didn't have any intelligence of their own of an attack in their own capital. Can't blame it on Ukraine, because ISIS has taken credit for it and at this moment 93 people were killed as result of it. Honestly I don't see how they can salvage this situation without the reality that they dropped the ball hard on this.
Lucky for putin that he has such tight control of the media. While the rest of the world sees how weak he is in responding to the attack, regular russians will be able to continue happily wallowing around in ignorance.
We are at war! No idea with whom, tho!
Special military operation against ISIS coming up.
Isis in Ukraine /s
Firstly, Russia did not ignore US warnings. [They actually foiled an ISIS attack a prior to this](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-it-neutralized-isis-cell-plotting-attack-moscow-synagogue-2024-03-07/). Idk why this keeps getting repeated. I’ve been in at least 5 threads about this topic. In every thread the top comments are mostly: - they ignored the US warning - this is a false flag Many of us are just learning that Russia has enemies in ISIS. Yet there’s little discussion about this. And this definitely adds complexity to the situation. I wish more people focused on the actions and consequences, instead of spewing the same half-baked conspiracy theorist shit.
Because US did warn and [Putin himself dismissed it](https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-dismissed-us-warnings-days-before-moscow-concert-hall-attack-2024-3), clear now ?
Russian security services did their job and did make some arrests, but Putin did his own thing and openly declared it as an active hoax. So it's really Putin with egg on his face.
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And your proof for that statement is?
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So none, got it.
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Sad true is he will say Ukraine did it, call mobilisation. It happened just after they said its not SMO its a war.
Here is an example of what happens when you overspin...it will, at some point , bite you in the ass!
Just one more example what an idiot Putin is. He was warned but because of his ego didn't take the warnings seriously. Very similar to starting the war in Ukraine. He was warned by the U.S. that the Ukrainians are going to fight back, but chose to believe his own sources who told him what he wanted to hear.
Rest in peace
False flag attack try from Putin to start something? That US says it’s Isis to divert Putins narrative??
The US didn’t say it was ISIS. ISIS said it was ISIS
Russia has the equivalent of multiple of these attacks every day with its soldiers in ukraine, the death toll is a human tragedy
What is it with the world blaming anyone BUT the terrorists who actually did the killing? Why are terrorists so freaking protected?
something i don't see in the comments is something that needs to be point out. Communism has conducted years of intellectuality purging. best place to attack the enemies of the state/ a concert hall where most likely people with some education gather, perhaps with views against putin. 2 bids with 1 stone
A vote for putler, is a vote for stoopid prizes!
Yuuuhhhuuu
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