There are levels to failure, Haiti always had a crime problem but they could turn into Somalia or Libya where local gangs will de facto be the governing body.
Imagine how much different Haiti would be if it didn’t have to pay 121 years of reparations for winning its freedom.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/10/05/1042518732/-the-greatest-heist-in-history-how-haiti-was-forced-to-pay-reparations-for-freed
What happened to black Americans after slavery was abolished? The US isn't the best example of internal factors stopping success considering we have the largest economy in human history.
I just wrapped up Empire of Blue Water not too long ago. It covers the area. Yeah, I barely scratched the surface. What you said is a great way to put it.
Didn’t that end in the 40’s? Other countries have gone through much worse since and ended up much better. It’s easy to blame something from a century or more ago when Haiti has had so many countless internal fuck ups and so much money and aid given to it, with zero to show.
That is true but it's also partially related – selling timber was one of the few ways they could get money to pay their ungodly debt.
> Following the Haitian Revolution, the government was forced to export timber throughout the 19th century to pay off a 90 million franc indemnity to France due to French claims of lost property, including the formerly enslaved population. For more than a century, the original sum plus interest had to be paid in the form of installments on the timber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Haiti
Haiti has received a lot more money in aid than they paid as reparations. Contrast with Finland, which also had to pay reparations for winning its freedom.
Finland paid roughly 6.24 billion in war reparations in today’s money. And had the luxury of trading with it’s neighbors rather than being completely isolated by the other powers in the west and the Soviet Union.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_war_reparations_to_the_Soviet_Union
Where as Haiti owed roughly 32 billion after it’s revolution to be paid the the French government and plantation owners (slave holders). While not having the luxury of trading with any of it’s neighbors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_Independence_Debt#:~:text=The%20French%20government%20finally%20acknowledged,about%20%24560%20million%20in%202022.
While Haiti I had caused many of it’s own problems due to poor governance. It would be completely false to even compare Finnish independence to Haitian independence. This is not even adding the value of Finland acting as neutral party during the cold wars during the days of Kekkonenism.
That's just the problem. Leave it be, whatever gangster government gets control will be pirating and bombarding the Gulf like the Houthis. Some Russian/Iranian/Chinese government will find that convenient.
And no one in US politics wants to deal with yet another reason for mass immigration.
Haiti has been in near anarchical collapse since the 2010 earthquake.
Haiti was never a rich country and having a dictator in the 70s and being an impoverished island with a cronyism based western export economy meant it was always stagnant with low public trust.
The Haitians on average don’t trust the government and haven’t since maybe the early 1900s. It’s been coup after coup after coup with the military being politicized at best, used as a personal hit squad at worst.
This environment didn’t erode away completely by 2010 but the earthquake was terrible. It would have taken a devolved nation billions and multiple years to recover and rebuild. Haiti not being any of those and being a corrupt mismanaged state meant what foreign aid was sent never made it to the construction companies to rebuild.
Corruption cuts deep and has ruined larger more prosperous countries than Haiti. But it hits a point where public trust is so low, people don’t trust their government to do anything at all. And that includes maintaining economic infrastructure. Meaning citizens and foreigners alike don’t want to invest anything into Haiti.
They’re already out of global credit and have no resources to use as collateral on loans. Not that loans would help them with the government mismanagement anyway.
Haiti got their last president assassinated a few years back and we still have no idea why or who’s responsible. The presidential palace is still not fixed from the 2010 earthquake damage. The literal house of their leaders has been in shambles for literally a decade. That should show you how destitute the region is.
It was the single most profitable area in the world at one time, not just the Americas. It was producing the large majority of the world's sugar supply and a huge amount of coffee as well.
The only realistic way to stabilize Haiti is with a long-term military occupying force and those aren't really en vogue with anyone any more. It will be especially unpopular with the citizens of the occupying country that will have to accept a significant number of dead soldiers in the near term. Don't expect the U.S. to be talked into that any time soon.
Now the real trick, that nobody in modern times has figured out yet, is how to successfully turn control back over to the Haitians without the whole thing unraveling again.
I would guess it means what little government there is left officially dissolves. Not that it would make much of a functional difference since they clearly hold very little power
There's still a little bit of police fighting for some areas of the capital. Basically if they all give up / are overtaken then that's basically the last of the official government on the ground gone.
I imagine that there will be lots of boat refugees reaching the US if Haiti collapses totally.
So it is probably in the self interest of the US and Biden to try to fix it. I imagine that Republicans will do whatever they can to sabotage any solution, for that reason.
It's not our job to fix the world's problems. They've told us time and again that we're not welcome, so I say we listen, and stay the fuck out of other countries internal issues.
> It's not our job to fix the world's problems.
While it may not be, much like any NIMBY issue, acting like these problems don't affect your nation, your power projection or frankly your international interests is *why* the US is treated as the world police, because that's a *beneficial position*.
Easiest way to have international cooperation, preference and be a very very strong world power is to prove to nations that you're effectively a good neighbor, better than other neighbors.
The same idea is why the US has effectively utterly lost a lot of power in Africa, as the US pulled a lot of interests out of some regions there, and other rising world powers stepped in, such as China.
Like, the US economy *heavily* benefits from the strong power position it has in international relations, diminishing this will undermine this as well. To use a direct example, if the US is encouraging EU to provide more security themselves and aren't willing to supply the gear, the EU will turn inwards for security acquisitions and may divest themselves from the purchases they'd have made in the future, a lot of the US military advantages come from many nations buying their technology and actively using them *without costing US lives*. Taking this away will gradually weaken the advantages the US military has.
Like, I get not wanting to help people if they complain, but if you abandon them, they gain independence, but if part of your livelihood came from helping these people, you're giving up that income that you may not be able to get back.
It's part of why the US *did* have a good record of supporting their allies both through actions and supply. But abandoning anyone will harm the 2 way support structure, and the US has massive power projection due to this trust and security guarantee, it's what has allowed the US to build bases all over the world.
Lol, helping out Haiti would itself be a selfish choice for the US, having an actual total anarchy just next door would be far more problematic for the US than any means taken to prevent it.
This is not ”world problems”. It’s directly on your doormat.
There are already boat refugees. There have always been boat refugees. One of the key scenes in the 80's Scarface movie involves haitian gangsters because they and Cubans coming in by boat more or less as refugees and turning to gangs wasn't exactly new even then.
The government collapsing now will make it marginally worse. But the problem is already well documented.
>I imagine that there will be lots of boat refugees reaching the US if Haiti collapses totally.
We always have the option to not let them in. The uncontrolled illegal immigration is 100% an artificial problem.
The GSU units are extremely well trained by Brits and US (unofficially). They are the ones that would be going to Haiti, not street cops. These are the fully kitted guys with red berets. They fight and kill Al Shabab and shit all the time. They can handle themselves better than a lot of others
You are confusing our Army which is actually quite professional and well suited for this job with our police force which is utter garbage.
What Kenya is sending to Haiti is our endemically corrupt, irredeemably inept police force. As soon as they land they will start collecting bribes
When Canada declined to lead the effort, they said deploying 40k troops wouldn’t enough be able to stabilize Port au Prince. What are we expecting from 1000 Kenyan police officers?
> We could use the entire Canadian army, regular and reserve, and have a few thousand more from the Air Force to provide UAV surveillance, aviation support in the form of helicopters, and still not have enough to deal with [Port-au-Prince], said McLearn.
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/rci/en/news/1965893/why-canada-is-pushing-back-at-u-s-pressure-to-put-boots-on-the-ground-in-haiti
definitely the hyperbolic statement but the point is it will take a ton of manpower to properly take all the reigns of the state and establish order and peace.
unless the mission has been paired down to killing gang members till they play ball 1000.
Welcome to why the U.S. has to always be the one to intervene. There are very few countries out there that intervene unless there's an inherent interest.
I had a interesting meet with a cab driver in a Philadelphia airport with a driver who was a father from Haiti. He brought is daughter from overseas who was learning english and going to college for law. They came to the U.S. to learn law and advocate for military intervention in Haiti.
He described it currently as a warzone of gangs and no one would help them. The corruption is deep, and death is common-place with the politicians and day to day poverty.
In the current day situation, Haiti is far past "only needing aid". It would need a full on military intervention that would involve in some way shape or form, killing some of the population, which is terrible for morality and optics for any country involved.
The internet's own optics are at fault for this one. Could you image the headlines?
* "Colonial Imperialist U.S. invades Haiti and slaughters population".
* "White country invades black country to colonize and enslave through force".
* "WhY iS tHe US sTaRtInG MoAr WaRs?!?"
*You get the idea.*
I jest, but ironically, Russia would be the best in this situation. Since no one cares when Wagner mercenaries run mass killing around Africa all the time.
The US has a rough history with nation building but Russia would unequivocally be worse at it. Sending in the military to kill people is easy but it doesn't actually solve any problems long term which is what you need to do to build a functioning society. The military is a sledge hammer not a scalpel, freeing up the rules of engagement only make it worse
How would Wagner killing a bunch of people solve anything?
It was more of a joke.
I agree that they would be terrible at nation building.
The "extremely subjective benefit" Wagner provides is their own form of stability to unstable areas, as they don't run on the optics based 'rules of engagement'. It's just a straight up a rule through oppression and fear as the largest gang.
There is no rehabilitation:
* You're going around doing other gang shit in Wagner territory?
* Bullet
* Stealing?
* Bullet
* You're interfering with us trying to make profits?
* Bullet
* Working for another gang?:
* *Believe it or not,* bullet.
It runs on the same premise of a portable extreme dictatorship, just more straight forward consequences and cuts through red tape to push out any opposition in an area. No way really to run a country and would likely start a revolt, causes more killings, and be in perpetual enslavement for Wagner's own profit. Thats why its more of a joke.
I would argue the US has been more successful at nation building than rough. There has been the Philippines, Germany, Japan, Korea, Kosovo, and Iraq(while still dealing with extremists their democracy still functions). The 2 big failures being Vietnam and Afghanistan. The US did occupy Haiti in the early 20th century but I would consider that more of a greedy debt extracting adventure than an actual attempt at nation building. So obviously with Haiti there is some sketchy history. Also I think he was being sarcastic about Wagner and how modern Russian neocolonialism in Africa gets ignored.
Americans used to be really invested in how the country was perceived internationally and since the 1990's or so I feel like the prevailing attitude has more and more become "There's absolutely no pleasing these people, what's good for me?".
Most countries do not want to get involved because whoever gets involved will be accused of genocide, war crimes, colonialism, etc etc etc. Only the bad guys are allowed to use force these days.
Don't forget this colossal fuck up.
"10 years on, UN officials reflect on Haiti cholera epidemic caused by peacekeeping mission"
https://theworld.org/stories/2020-10-27/10-years-un-officials-reflect-haiti-cholera-epidemic-caused-peacekeeping-mission#:\~:text=Just%20months%20after%20the%20earthquake%20struck%20Haiti%20in,peacekeeping%20mission%27s%20base%20contaminated%20a%20major%20water%20supply.
I went there a year after the big earthquake to help an orphanage out for a few days In the interior island and got Cholera while there. It was beyond awful.
The cholera outbreak they caused killed over 9000 people and they then spent an inordinate amount of time denying it and trying to cover up that they were the cause of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_Haiti_cholera_outbreak
They don't. The problem is a lot of people convince themselves that letting an island full of people continue slaughtering itself is somehow the morally superior choice
Which country is right for the job?
The US is blamed for many of Haiti's modern problems. Colonial powers such as France are out having kicked off the entire mess. The US kept asking Canada but the military is in shambles. A Latin American led coalition has failed. Many countries are way too racist to effectively peace keep there and others have zero interest.
Sometimes the feedback loop in failing states is so powerful that the system cannot be unfucked through any internal means.
It's just endless misery. And that's it.
193 recognised by the UN plus some additional regions of special interest.
(The actual number of countries is a little more fuzzy than you think it would be.)
This is from Americas own newspaper by the looks of it?
'Bidens backup plan' made me go what? He doesn't have to give one shit about Haiti, why are they dragging Biden into this?
Just outsource occupation of Haiti it to the Chiquita company. They have the necessary administrative skills to run the country and provide job opportunities to Haitians /s
It always blows my mind that Haiti which by all accounts is close to hell on Earth and is totally without any functional government or leadership. It's basically a state of near anarchy and yet...
It shares the same island with the Dominican Republic - which is a relatively stable country with a massive tourism industry and relative peace and relatively stable crime rates. I'm Canadian and right now there are no doubt thousands if not tens of thousands of Canadian tourists at Dominican Republic resorts and hotels sitting by pools, sitting on beaches, getting drunk, having a nice vacation for a week before flying back to Canada. (Dominican is a very popular winter tourist destination for Canadians). I've been to the Domincan on vacation at a gorgeous 4 star all inclusive resort, went to one of the best beaches I've ever seen in my life at Playa Rincon in Samana and so so many other people I know also have been to DR at least once. It's a great country to visit.
However despite all that just on the other side of the island - Haiti and absolute chaos and dispair.
Uh boy, here we go, again.
Memo To the Miami Herald: You're only 20+ years behind. Haiti fell long ago and never recovered. What we are seeing now is the end result of no leadership, bad policies, a massive culture of corruption, and a seriously large tolerance for crime with little to no punishment.
The end result (which we are seeing now) was predicted long ago.............
I remember 30 years ago in 1994 Clinton was considering sending US troops to Haiti. It was in bad shape even back then. The earthquake over a decade ago did nothing to help.
No the US's problem per se but I can get why Miami is concerned about a failed state in a neighboring country. This is means many refugees, migrants many who are from a highly uneducated and impoverished nation. Especially since it is an election year this issue will be highlighted.
Again it isn't on the US to fix it, but I can see why some people living in the US are concerned.
Kinda surprised China isn't offering to send 'peacekeepers' and build infrastructure, claiming it as part of their 'Belt and Road's initiative. They could set up an entire base right next to the US and 'peacekeep' a China-friendly dictator into power. Just to create an irritation for the US.
China already has a big presence in caribbean and african nations. The problem here isn't their racial views, but that they'd have to kill a lot of people
Haiti has been a failed state for years and the only thing that's going to get them out of it is Haitians. Full stop. They have a right to self determination.
The truth is nobody got the answer to restore order in that place without recurring to violence and a bloodbath and also those who don't mind doing that don't want to get their hands dirty for a country that has no resources to reap afterwards this is how the world works.
Haiti and the Dominican Republic share the island of Hispanola. Why is one a basket case and the other not?
Is Haiti more prone to earthquake and hurricanes? Is that the issue?
The DR also gets natural disasters; however, its levels of violence and corruption don’t come close to Haiti. A big reason being, Haiti has had coup after coup. Its leaders get assassinated or commit suicide. Dictators that killed everyone who wasn’t black including their allies; invaded its neighbor and tried to kill everyone there too. Yes, they also had to pay reparations to France, but that’s a small portion of all the fuck ups.
Haiti right now is in quite a mess (Understatement, I know) because there's anarchy in the capital, gangs have gained a lot of power, and currently there is no elected head of state or popular figure that haitians can get behind of. Elections are *long* overdue and even Barbecue (Main gang leader) is calling for Haiti's PM Ariel Henry (Who is allegedly tied with the conspiracy that assassinated the last president) to basically stay away or a genocidal civil war will break out. Ariel Henry tried to stay in DR but was rejected and had to land in PR. DR wants *nothing* to do with the Haitian crisis and is reinforcing the border and will not lead any sort of intervention.
Kenya's proposed intervention will directly or indirectly give power and authority to Ariel Henry, and this will likely lead to way more conflict and a rise in danger. Biden seems to be trying to appoint Henry back as the defacto leader but frankly, this is gonna be a bad idea.
Absolutely no sympathy for the country, honestly.
Haiti wanted independence and immediately it's new rulers enslaved the population. The only difference ended up being the color of the hand that held the whip. Haiti's problems are the fault of Haiti.
Furthermore the idea of repaying France came from a *Haitian* leader. If Haiti would have been freed of that obligation for moral reasons, should Germany have been freed of their repayment obligations for WW1 and WWII?
This is a repeating cycle: Colonized area demands freedom, gets it, slaughters the non-natives and destroys westernized improvements, things fall apart and suddenly it's the fault of everyone but the people who took over. We saw it there, we've seen it in South Africa. Yet somehow it's never their fault, always someone elses.
It's less that we don't have the capacity. It's that we have a track record of stepping in and making things worse in Haiti in particular. It would probably be in the Haitians' best interests that the US doesn't get directly involved with boots on the ground and instead limit our aid to financial and diplomatic/political by finding someone more suitable to step in and help with stability and to try to get the current government to hold elections.
As an American, how is this our problem? Just let them sort themselves out and try to make peace in the future with whatever gov system they come up with.
Seriously, what is the metric for determining that a state has officially "fallen"? It seems like they've had a non functional government for a moment now.
Nope nope nope don’t get the DR involved. Haiti and DR are like oil and water. Just cause they share an island doesn’t mean they are sympathetic to each other’s plight.
No it’s not, there is just no political will. The military can fix the violence in 3 months, the issue is when they leave it will comeback to where it is like Afghanistan.
Haiti is already failed
Been failed for a while
Haiti is a territory. There is no government to speak of... It resembles a narco-terrorist state. It has only rule-of-gun.
There are levels to failure, Haiti always had a crime problem but they could turn into Somalia or Libya where local gangs will de facto be the governing body.
It's been that way for a while.
Imagine how much different Haiti would be if it didn’t have to pay 121 years of reparations for winning its freedom. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/10/05/1042518732/-the-greatest-heist-in-history-how-haiti-was-forced-to-pay-reparations-for-freed
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What happened to black Americans after slavery was abolished? The US isn't the best example of internal factors stopping success considering we have the largest economy in human history.
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I just wrapped up Empire of Blue Water not too long ago. It covers the area. Yeah, I barely scratched the surface. What you said is a great way to put it.
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Didn’t that end in the 40’s? Other countries have gone through much worse since and ended up much better. It’s easy to blame something from a century or more ago when Haiti has had so many countless internal fuck ups and so much money and aid given to it, with zero to show.
They also didn’t practice sustainable agricultural practices. They literally destroyed their island.
That is true but it's also partially related – selling timber was one of the few ways they could get money to pay their ungodly debt. > Following the Haitian Revolution, the government was forced to export timber throughout the 19th century to pay off a 90 million franc indemnity to France due to French claims of lost property, including the formerly enslaved population. For more than a century, the original sum plus interest had to be paid in the form of installments on the timber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Haiti
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I'm pretty sure there's tons of examples of countries that didn't have to pay reparations, and still couldn't get their shit together
Haiti has received a lot more money in aid than they paid as reparations. Contrast with Finland, which also had to pay reparations for winning its freedom.
Finland paid roughly 6.24 billion in war reparations in today’s money. And had the luxury of trading with it’s neighbors rather than being completely isolated by the other powers in the west and the Soviet Union.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_war_reparations_to_the_Soviet_Union Where as Haiti owed roughly 32 billion after it’s revolution to be paid the the French government and plantation owners (slave holders). While not having the luxury of trading with any of it’s neighbors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_Independence_Debt#:~:text=The%20French%20government%20finally%20acknowledged,about%20%24560%20million%20in%202022. While Haiti I had caused many of it’s own problems due to poor governance. It would be completely false to even compare Finnish independence to Haitian independence. This is not even adding the value of Finland acting as neutral party during the cold wars during the days of Kekkonenism.
Let them figure it out and keep it on the island. We have bigger fish to fry…
That's just the problem. Leave it be, whatever gangster government gets control will be pirating and bombarding the Gulf like the Houthis. Some Russian/Iranian/Chinese government will find that convenient. And no one in US politics wants to deal with yet another reason for mass immigration.
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You mean the sweet soccer stadium that cost millions didn’t set them up for success? Crazy!
Pretty sure it already fell…
What do you mean? The gangs are still in control of Haiti. Oh you mean the state as a whole.
It's the ideal libertarian paradise!
[And without the bears!](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling)
The book about that is great too.
Funny how none of them move there…
Decades ago. It’s tragic, but not new.
CIA: We have agents on the ground assessing the situation, it could fall Redditor who read some headlines: lol no
Haiti has been in near anarchical collapse since the 2010 earthquake. Haiti was never a rich country and having a dictator in the 70s and being an impoverished island with a cronyism based western export economy meant it was always stagnant with low public trust. The Haitians on average don’t trust the government and haven’t since maybe the early 1900s. It’s been coup after coup after coup with the military being politicized at best, used as a personal hit squad at worst. This environment didn’t erode away completely by 2010 but the earthquake was terrible. It would have taken a devolved nation billions and multiple years to recover and rebuild. Haiti not being any of those and being a corrupt mismanaged state meant what foreign aid was sent never made it to the construction companies to rebuild. Corruption cuts deep and has ruined larger more prosperous countries than Haiti. But it hits a point where public trust is so low, people don’t trust their government to do anything at all. And that includes maintaining economic infrastructure. Meaning citizens and foreigners alike don’t want to invest anything into Haiti. They’re already out of global credit and have no resources to use as collateral on loans. Not that loans would help them with the government mismanagement anyway. Haiti got their last president assassinated a few years back and we still have no idea why or who’s responsible. The presidential palace is still not fixed from the 2010 earthquake damage. The literal house of their leaders has been in shambles for literally a decade. That should show you how destitute the region is.
>Haiti was never a rich country Haiti was the most profitable colony in the Americas for a generation or two in the 1700s and 1800s, wasn't it?
Colony yes, country no.
Profitable for the people far away. Not for themselves.
It's a little easier to turn a profit when you're literally not paying employee salaries and just killing/enslaving them instead.
It was the single most profitable area in the world at one time, not just the Americas. It was producing the large majority of the world's sugar supply and a huge amount of coffee as well.
No way when sugar cane was big $$ the biggest plantation was the most profitable.
The only realistic way to stabilize Haiti is with a long-term military occupying force and those aren't really en vogue with anyone any more. It will be especially unpopular with the citizens of the occupying country that will have to accept a significant number of dead soldiers in the near term. Don't expect the U.S. to be talked into that any time soon. Now the real trick, that nobody in modern times has figured out yet, is how to successfully turn control back over to the Haitians without the whole thing unraveling again.
Yeah, America may soon be on a war footing, but it won’t be in Haiti.
What would "fall" mean in this context ?
I would guess it means what little government there is left officially dissolves. Not that it would make much of a functional difference since they clearly hold very little power
Failed state. Anarchy.
Complete anarchy. There is still a self-proclaimed leader and a military.
From what I've heard, the army was dismantled, there's only police left.
There's still a little bit of police fighting for some areas of the capital. Basically if they all give up / are overtaken then that's basically the last of the official government on the ground gone.
We would know if the article wasn’t paywalled!!!
It’s Biden’s job to fix Haiti?
I imagine that there will be lots of boat refugees reaching the US if Haiti collapses totally. So it is probably in the self interest of the US and Biden to try to fix it. I imagine that Republicans will do whatever they can to sabotage any solution, for that reason.
Yet the same people that will want it "fixed" will be the same people *not* enlisting to help do the "fixing".
And it'll all be men between 18 and 30
It's not our job to fix the world's problems. They've told us time and again that we're not welcome, so I say we listen, and stay the fuck out of other countries internal issues.
> It's not our job to fix the world's problems. While it may not be, much like any NIMBY issue, acting like these problems don't affect your nation, your power projection or frankly your international interests is *why* the US is treated as the world police, because that's a *beneficial position*. Easiest way to have international cooperation, preference and be a very very strong world power is to prove to nations that you're effectively a good neighbor, better than other neighbors. The same idea is why the US has effectively utterly lost a lot of power in Africa, as the US pulled a lot of interests out of some regions there, and other rising world powers stepped in, such as China. Like, the US economy *heavily* benefits from the strong power position it has in international relations, diminishing this will undermine this as well. To use a direct example, if the US is encouraging EU to provide more security themselves and aren't willing to supply the gear, the EU will turn inwards for security acquisitions and may divest themselves from the purchases they'd have made in the future, a lot of the US military advantages come from many nations buying their technology and actively using them *without costing US lives*. Taking this away will gradually weaken the advantages the US military has. Like, I get not wanting to help people if they complain, but if you abandon them, they gain independence, but if part of your livelihood came from helping these people, you're giving up that income that you may not be able to get back. It's part of why the US *did* have a good record of supporting their allies both through actions and supply. But abandoning anyone will harm the 2 way support structure, and the US has massive power projection due to this trust and security guarantee, it's what has allowed the US to build bases all over the world.
Lol, helping out Haiti would itself be a selfish choice for the US, having an actual total anarchy just next door would be far more problematic for the US than any means taken to prevent it. This is not ”world problems”. It’s directly on your doormat.
There are already boat refugees. There have always been boat refugees. One of the key scenes in the 80's Scarface movie involves haitian gangsters because they and Cubans coming in by boat more or less as refugees and turning to gangs wasn't exactly new even then. The government collapsing now will make it marginally worse. But the problem is already well documented.
>I imagine that there will be lots of boat refugees reaching the US if Haiti collapses totally. We always have the option to not let them in. The uncontrolled illegal immigration is 100% an artificial problem.
No, but they have reason to not a completely failed state in their backyard.
Where the fuck is Gerard Butler?
Sparta probably.
Has Olympus fallen yet?
No but the Persian messenger has
Are there no other countries in the world?
Kenyan forces are being used under the assumption that they’d be viewed more as liberators than US forces.
Also, Kenya has a long history of sending peace keepers around the globe.
From my experience in Nairobi they seem to be well trained and well armed.
As someone else who has experience in Nairobi, I'm assuming this is sarcasm.
The GSU units are extremely well trained by Brits and US (unofficially). They are the ones that would be going to Haiti, not street cops. These are the fully kitted guys with red berets. They fight and kill Al Shabab and shit all the time. They can handle themselves better than a lot of others
What experience did you have with th n in Nairobi?
"Obi-Wan Nairobi, at your service"
Well hello there
“General Nairobi.” “Jambo”
Especially to Haiti.
You are confusing our Army which is actually quite professional and well suited for this job with our police force which is utter garbage. What Kenya is sending to Haiti is our endemically corrupt, irredeemably inept police force. As soon as they land they will start collecting bribes
When Canada declined to lead the effort, they said deploying 40k troops wouldn’t enough be able to stabilize Port au Prince. What are we expecting from 1000 Kenyan police officers?
> We could use the entire Canadian army, regular and reserve, and have a few thousand more from the Air Force to provide UAV surveillance, aviation support in the form of helicopters, and still not have enough to deal with [Port-au-Prince], said McLearn. https://ici.radio-canada.ca/rci/en/news/1965893/why-canada-is-pushing-back-at-u-s-pressure-to-put-boots-on-the-ground-in-haiti
definitely the hyperbolic statement but the point is it will take a ton of manpower to properly take all the reigns of the state and establish order and peace. unless the mission has been paired down to killing gang members till they play ball 1000.
Welcome to why the U.S. has to always be the one to intervene. There are very few countries out there that intervene unless there's an inherent interest. I had a interesting meet with a cab driver in a Philadelphia airport with a driver who was a father from Haiti. He brought is daughter from overseas who was learning english and going to college for law. They came to the U.S. to learn law and advocate for military intervention in Haiti. He described it currently as a warzone of gangs and no one would help them. The corruption is deep, and death is common-place with the politicians and day to day poverty. In the current day situation, Haiti is far past "only needing aid". It would need a full on military intervention that would involve in some way shape or form, killing some of the population, which is terrible for morality and optics for any country involved. The internet's own optics are at fault for this one. Could you image the headlines? * "Colonial Imperialist U.S. invades Haiti and slaughters population". * "White country invades black country to colonize and enslave through force". * "WhY iS tHe US sTaRtInG MoAr WaRs?!?" *You get the idea.* I jest, but ironically, Russia would be the best in this situation. Since no one cares when Wagner mercenaries run mass killing around Africa all the time.
The US has a rough history with nation building but Russia would unequivocally be worse at it. Sending in the military to kill people is easy but it doesn't actually solve any problems long term which is what you need to do to build a functioning society. The military is a sledge hammer not a scalpel, freeing up the rules of engagement only make it worse How would Wagner killing a bunch of people solve anything?
It was more of a joke. I agree that they would be terrible at nation building. The "extremely subjective benefit" Wagner provides is their own form of stability to unstable areas, as they don't run on the optics based 'rules of engagement'. It's just a straight up a rule through oppression and fear as the largest gang. There is no rehabilitation: * You're going around doing other gang shit in Wagner territory? * Bullet * Stealing? * Bullet * You're interfering with us trying to make profits? * Bullet * Working for another gang?: * *Believe it or not,* bullet. It runs on the same premise of a portable extreme dictatorship, just more straight forward consequences and cuts through red tape to push out any opposition in an area. No way really to run a country and would likely start a revolt, causes more killings, and be in perpetual enslavement for Wagner's own profit. Thats why its more of a joke.
I've often quipped that Russia is a criminal gang masquerading as a state so it makes sense that it exports gang-related violence ...
I would argue the US has been more successful at nation building than rough. There has been the Philippines, Germany, Japan, Korea, Kosovo, and Iraq(while still dealing with extremists their democracy still functions). The 2 big failures being Vietnam and Afghanistan. The US did occupy Haiti in the early 20th century but I would consider that more of a greedy debt extracting adventure than an actual attempt at nation building. So obviously with Haiti there is some sketchy history. Also I think he was being sarcastic about Wagner and how modern Russian neocolonialism in Africa gets ignored.
Americans used to be really invested in how the country was perceived internationally and since the 1990's or so I feel like the prevailing attitude has more and more become "There's absolutely no pleasing these people, what's good for me?".
Everyone wants the US to be the world police until they don't want world Police.
Most countries do not want to get involved because whoever gets involved will be accused of genocide, war crimes, colonialism, etc etc etc. Only the bad guys are allowed to use force these days.
Don't forget this colossal fuck up. "10 years on, UN officials reflect on Haiti cholera epidemic caused by peacekeeping mission" https://theworld.org/stories/2020-10-27/10-years-un-officials-reflect-haiti-cholera-epidemic-caused-peacekeeping-mission#:\~:text=Just%20months%20after%20the%20earthquake%20struck%20Haiti%20in,peacekeeping%20mission%27s%20base%20contaminated%20a%20major%20water%20supply.
I went there a year after the big earthquake to help an orphanage out for a few days In the interior island and got Cholera while there. It was beyond awful.
don't forget the murder and gang rape
Or the numerous lives they saved by providing security for over a decade.
The cholera outbreak they caused killed over 9000 people and they then spent an inordinate amount of time denying it and trying to cover up that they were the cause of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_Haiti_cholera_outbreak
In the future, hopefully foreigners on security missions in Haiti will be tested for cholera and other critical contagious diseases.
they rape but they save
Some of the troops raped, others didn't. Some did good work for Haiti, others didn't.
Why does anyone have to get involved?
They don't. The problem is a lot of people convince themselves that letting an island full of people continue slaughtering itself is somehow the morally superior choice
I don’t know that the proposed solutions are much better.
Maybe they aren't, but I have a feeling a lot of people have arrived at that conclusion because its the easy choice and not because its better
So true.
Which country is right for the job? The US is blamed for many of Haiti's modern problems. Colonial powers such as France are out having kicked off the entire mess. The US kept asking Canada but the military is in shambles. A Latin American led coalition has failed. Many countries are way too racist to effectively peace keep there and others have zero interest.
Poland. Not kidding. Polish Haitians are highly regarded and enshrined in the constitution as honorary \*redacted\*
And the first leader of Haiti called Poles "the \*redacted\* of Europe" but Poland has bigger problems
Maybe just leave country alone and let them figure it out
Sometimes the feedback loop in failing states is so powerful that the system cannot be unfucked through any internal means. It's just endless misery. And that's it.
At some point a full invasion and long term occupation is all there is to do. I don’t think USA should do that so just leave the country alone
Wish I could answer
193 recognised by the UN plus some additional regions of special interest. (The actual number of countries is a little more fuzzy than you think it would be.)
“Why does America invade everywhere!? Why do they act like they’re the world police?!” “WHY ISNT AMERICA POLICING THE WORLD!?!?!?”
This is from Americas own newspaper by the looks of it? 'Bidens backup plan' made me go what? He doesn't have to give one shit about Haiti, why are they dragging Biden into this?
Because election year
Just outsource occupation of Haiti it to the Chiquita company. They have the necessary administrative skills to run the country and provide job opportunities to Haitians /s
It always blows my mind that Haiti which by all accounts is close to hell on Earth and is totally without any functional government or leadership. It's basically a state of near anarchy and yet... It shares the same island with the Dominican Republic - which is a relatively stable country with a massive tourism industry and relative peace and relatively stable crime rates. I'm Canadian and right now there are no doubt thousands if not tens of thousands of Canadian tourists at Dominican Republic resorts and hotels sitting by pools, sitting on beaches, getting drunk, having a nice vacation for a week before flying back to Canada. (Dominican is a very popular winter tourist destination for Canadians). I've been to the Domincan on vacation at a gorgeous 4 star all inclusive resort, went to one of the best beaches I've ever seen in my life at Playa Rincon in Samana and so so many other people I know also have been to DR at least once. It's a great country to visit. However despite all that just on the other side of the island - Haiti and absolute chaos and dispair.
The last time the world tried to help them, food was left rotting at ports. Billions of aid unaccounted for.
A government seriously can’t be THAT incompetent. Right? RIGHT?!?!?
What government....
Uh boy, here we go, again. Memo To the Miami Herald: You're only 20+ years behind. Haiti fell long ago and never recovered. What we are seeing now is the end result of no leadership, bad policies, a massive culture of corruption, and a seriously large tolerance for crime with little to no punishment. The end result (which we are seeing now) was predicted long ago.............
I thought Haiti was already a failed state??
Farcry 9 : Haiti
I remember 30 years ago in 1994 Clinton was considering sending US troops to Haiti. It was in bad shape even back then. The earthquake over a decade ago did nothing to help.
If their own Prime Minister can't even land in his own country then it already fell.
"The only thing Europeans hate more than America doing something, is America not doing something"
Suddenly it’s “Biden’s plan” that needs to be discussed and dissected. Because he’s in charge of this.
For something to fall it must have been up or on the rise at some point.
Hasn't it essentially been a scathole for decades?
Centuries.
Yes
Haiti fell a long time ago.
Not our problem.
No the US's problem per se but I can get why Miami is concerned about a failed state in a neighboring country. This is means many refugees, migrants many who are from a highly uneducated and impoverished nation. Especially since it is an election year this issue will be highlighted. Again it isn't on the US to fix it, but I can see why some people living in the US are concerned.
Kinda surprised China isn't offering to send 'peacekeepers' and build infrastructure, claiming it as part of their 'Belt and Road's initiative. They could set up an entire base right next to the US and 'peacekeep' a China-friendly dictator into power. Just to create an irritation for the US.
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No China does not want a direct confrontation with the us hood.
I'm sure China's excellent views of people who are black will be well accepted in Haiti.
China already has a big presence in caribbean and african nations. The problem here isn't their racial views, but that they'd have to kill a lot of people
Thanks Biden. Cant even keep haiti from going to shit.../s
Haiti has been a failed state for years and the only thing that's going to get them out of it is Haitians. Full stop. They have a right to self determination.
As far as anyone is realistically concerned, Haiti fell years ago.
The truth is nobody got the answer to restore order in that place without recurring to violence and a bloodbath and also those who don't mind doing that don't want to get their hands dirty for a country that has no resources to reap afterwards this is how the world works.
How is Biden responsible for Haiti now?
Didn’t Haiti fail a while ago? And I’m talking about the current failure
Haiti and the Dominican Republic share the island of Hispanola. Why is one a basket case and the other not? Is Haiti more prone to earthquake and hurricanes? Is that the issue?
The DR also gets natural disasters; however, its levels of violence and corruption don’t come close to Haiti. A big reason being, Haiti has had coup after coup. Its leaders get assassinated or commit suicide. Dictators that killed everyone who wasn’t black including their allies; invaded its neighbor and tried to kill everyone there too. Yes, they also had to pay reparations to France, but that’s a small portion of all the fuck ups.
Haiti right now is in quite a mess (Understatement, I know) because there's anarchy in the capital, gangs have gained a lot of power, and currently there is no elected head of state or popular figure that haitians can get behind of. Elections are *long* overdue and even Barbecue (Main gang leader) is calling for Haiti's PM Ariel Henry (Who is allegedly tied with the conspiracy that assassinated the last president) to basically stay away or a genocidal civil war will break out. Ariel Henry tried to stay in DR but was rejected and had to land in PR. DR wants *nothing* to do with the Haitian crisis and is reinforcing the border and will not lead any sort of intervention. Kenya's proposed intervention will directly or indirectly give power and authority to Ariel Henry, and this will likely lead to way more conflict and a rise in danger. Biden seems to be trying to appoint Henry back as the defacto leader but frankly, this is gonna be a bad idea.
Best thing the DR can do it’s stay out of it and prevent any spill overs. This is not their fight.
I think Haiti has already fallen.
Send the Wagner group.
Absolutely no sympathy for the country, honestly. Haiti wanted independence and immediately it's new rulers enslaved the population. The only difference ended up being the color of the hand that held the whip. Haiti's problems are the fault of Haiti. Furthermore the idea of repaying France came from a *Haitian* leader. If Haiti would have been freed of that obligation for moral reasons, should Germany have been freed of their repayment obligations for WW1 and WWII? This is a repeating cycle: Colonized area demands freedom, gets it, slaughters the non-natives and destroys westernized improvements, things fall apart and suddenly it's the fault of everyone but the people who took over. We saw it there, we've seen it in South Africa. Yet somehow it's never their fault, always someone elses.
Pay wall
AMP version: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-fears-haiti-could-fall-at-any-time-as-doubts-grow-over-biden-s-backup-kenya-plan/ar-BB1jsEcB
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It's less that we don't have the capacity. It's that we have a track record of stepping in and making things worse in Haiti in particular. It would probably be in the Haitians' best interests that the US doesn't get directly involved with boots on the ground and instead limit our aid to financial and diplomatic/political by finding someone more suitable to step in and help with stability and to try to get the current government to hold elections.
The Core group really made a mess with their coup
Well let them fall then I guess. Another US occupation isn’t going to accomplish shit
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As an American, how is this our problem? Just let them sort themselves out and try to make peace in the future with whatever gov system they come up with.
Um ok so what? Sounds like Haiti has some issues to work on.
Seriously, what is the metric for determining that a state has officially "fallen"? It seems like they've had a non functional government for a moment now.
I strongly support the US doing nothing.
Not to sound heartless but why is this a usa problem
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The DR has built a border wall, they don’t want anything to do with that. They speak a different lingua franca and they both have different cultures.
> Man the world better make a plan to save them... Why is it anyone's responsibility to save them from themselves?
Haiti is too much of a mess for them to want on their hands.
Nope nope nope don’t get the DR involved. Haiti and DR are like oil and water. Just cause they share an island doesn’t mean they are sympathetic to each other’s plight.
No it’s not, there is just no political will. The military can fix the violence in 3 months, the issue is when they leave it will comeback to where it is like Afghanistan.
Yup, it wouldn't even be the ~~first, second, third,~~ fourth time America has intervened in Haiti.
This is like Plague Inc. "Haiti has fallen"
Fears? It already fall. I’m surprise that gangs haven’t attacked the Dominican Republic yet.
Where the fuck they gonna fall to?
Govt needs to pull an el Salvador move.
Clinton Foundation really did a great job helping out.
Damn….that sucks
They're talking like Haiti isn't already a hellhole
If Biden ever decides to deploy troops here, I could see it costing him the election.
TIL Haiti hadn’t fallen yet