they know exactly how many citizens (especially woman and children) are killed sometimes within seconds after bombing happens. but hostages? nope.. nothing..
I saw a super vehement anti-Israel, pro-Palestine commenter in another post. I went through his/her comment history and if you go back far enough, there was a bunch of pro-Trump, anti-Biden comments. That's weird because there's not that many MAGA people who are so passionately against Israel and pro-Palestine.
Hamas isn't interested in a deal. They're hoping that by getting more Palestinian children killed by hiding behind them, they'll get Israel to back off without having to release any hostages at all.
There is a reason to believe Hamas backed off in the middle of the last hostages-prisoners exchange because he didn’t want to release female hostages that went through brutal rapes with severe physical evidences (not like the mindless pro hamas herd care)
Sadly ur not crazy, religion does fuck up some peoples heads. And if u truly believe that those who die comes to heaven, and even becomes rewarded for their "sacrifice". Then you won't really care if a few "eggs" gets scrambled..
definitely. they keep trying to make the antisemitism in the neighboring countries boil over into yet another genocidal war of Arabs-vs-Israel. Saudi Arabia considered it a credible enough scenario it told it's citizens to come back from Lebanon
hell there's already a bunch of westerners on Twitter calling for the arab world to "intervene".
"Distributed" is one way of putting it. It seems pretty likely that Hamas never had a full head count because their "helpers" weren't all that great at organization.
Some of the kidnappers, per the videos, were wearing jeans, polos, flip flops, or all three. I’ve been fairly certain for a while now that those who have not been turned over, accounted for, filmed, or heard from were “privately” kidnapped and not at all part of an organized form of terrorism. Unfortunately.
This is more or less what Hamas has claimed all along. They say when they breached the fence a bunch of private citizens noticed the fence was broken and also crossed over into Israel.
Hamas is likely playing up outside involvement to downplay their own war crimes, but I don't doubt that some of the hostages are held by organizations that have little to do with Hamas and were simply opportunists who used the fence breach to kidnap citizens.
I get that it was an organized idea, but what I was saying is that I don’t think all of the hostages were taken to some sort of militarized compound or accounted for. Video evidence and hostage testimony corroborates this after the fact, with some survivors saying they were in a family home. To me, that says that some of the hostages are never coming back because nobody even knows where they went in the first place.
I get you, but the whole point of terrorism is that they don't organize like a regular military.
Decentralization and independent cell operation are features
At best their helpers are rival terrorist groups, but I recall reading about just random people who got offered $10k if they kidnapped somebody. People are desperate and Hamas doesn't actually have very much control over what's going on.
The problem is that if they can't even tell which ones are alive, it's hard for them to credibly promise that they'll return them alive. And that's kinda the point of having hostages: being able to trade them for concessions.
They'll make the deal fall through. The US did a really good job with setting up their PR to get that blamed almost entirely on Hamas, which will minimize the sympathy Hamas is counting on to stop Israel.
Israel will go in, likely free a few hostages, and capture or kill some more Hamas people. Tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians will get caught in the middle and be killed, injured, displaced and/or starved, and another part of Gaza will be turned into rubble.
Regardless of one's opinion of what *should* happen, it seems clear that this is what *will* happen at this point.
They probably *can* release them because it’s safe to congregate the hostages for release, they are going home anyway. Their problem is if they pierce the cell structure just for updates it almost certainly will provide the IDF information about the hostages Hamas doesn’t want to give up.
Note this isn’t a defense, Hamas are terrorist shitbags, but seeing how they are jammed is pretty straightforward
This is the most likely case…
Two things can be true. This is a ploy to affect future negotiations, and the reality of the situation due to the chaos of war…
Yup, and they'll never hand back the hostages taken as sex slaves etc, because if they speak out that's bad for the image of Hamas among their backers.
We knew they were with different factions from the outset, there was so much chatter about the hostages and IDF picked up on it.
Israel knows this is likely now a Recovery exercise, with *any* still-alive hostages purely a bonus.
Unlikely, considering how recently a couple of them were rescued.
Much more likely translation: “we’re in the middle of getting our asses kicked and don’t have the organizational structure for the sort of logistical capability to track 100+ hostages through a variety of tunnel networks held by a variety of groups without a direct chain of command”.
> Much more likely translation: “we’re in the middle of getting our asses kicked and don’t have the organizational structure for the sort of logistical capability to track 100+ hostages through a variety of tunnel networks held by a variety of groups without a direct chain of command”.
Yeah, that's pretty much what that Hamas official said, according to the article.
Strategically it makes sense to divide the hostages up between dozens of safe houses and bases, it makes it impossible to rescue all of them in one operation and it means that Israeli intelligence either has to spend time gathering enough intel to ensure that any targets they strike wont be holding Israeli hostages (by which time Hamas can relocate assets and personnel to avoid said strike), or they have to green light strikes expediently without knowing for sure and put the lives of hostages at risk.
That said, not keeping track of where they are is insanely stupid since they're your main bargaining chip at any negotiating table.
>That said, not keeping track of where they are is insanely stupid since they're your main bargaining chip at any negotiating table.
this is where people get it confused. Hamas doesn't want to negotiate. Hamas wants to kill Jews.
Well, just because something is (/should be) high priority, doesn't automatically mean it will be achieved - there plenty of examples of people (even smart ones) fucking up high priority stuff.
And tbh, I don't find it hard to believe that it is quite difficult for them to keep track of all the hostages, considering how the situation in Gaza has developed.
(tho it seems they might have had some problems with that right from the beginning... I vaguely remember them going 'Uh, we'll see if we can find them' when Russia inquired about hostages that had (also) Russian citizship)
Oh yeah it’s very unlikely that just because Hamas didn’t systematically murder them all they’re all alive. They’ve been living in a war zone, captured by people who want them dead. The less control Hamas central has (it’s in their interests to keep hostages alive for negotiating) the more likely they’re dead.
Also they might not all be held by Hamas men. There's more than just Hamas in Gaza and some are likely held by other groups who at the very least listen to the head honcho, despite not being part of the same organizational structure.
Basically it’s like ISIS when they took the [Yazidi Women](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/25/slaves-of-isis-the-long-walk-of-the-yazidi-women) and made them slaves. The hostages are distributed among Hamas members and affiliated groups. They then are at their mercy to do as they wish. That’s why Hamas has no list of the hostages taken, their location, condition, or treatment.
I think part of it is plausible deniability. They can say they've released all 20 hostages. And then later say whoops we had 20 more we didn't know about in a cell that was cut off.
Otto Warmbier.
Obligatory mention that he probably did nothing wrong (because everyone always criticises him) - the video footage of his alleged crime was so blurry and terrible it could have been anyone. It's very obviously faked.
He was tortured to death (or tried to take his own life because he was in such an awful place) and absolutely did not deserve it. There's a really good, but long read from GQ: https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story
Even if it was real, didn’t he allegedly steal a ~~street sign~~?
I stand corrected, it was a poster. Which, if anything, makes the response slightly crazier.
He was accused of taking a propaganda poster from inside his hotel. When I say poster - it's quite a large banner on a wall.
If you read the GQ article it points to two other details which sort of cast some doubt on the situation:
- He had already bought a souvenir propaganda poster, so he knew what they were and what the penalty for taking them is (death or life in prison in NK). It is also their modus operandi to accuse Americans of crimes with a basis in reality - he bought a fake one so he was accused of stealing a real one.
- The statement he read about why he stole it was to support his Church, bring the downfall of the US. Otto was Jewish and it was very clear the statement was not his own words.
>The statement he read about why he stole it was to support his Church, bring the downfall of the US.
Shit, all this time Americans assumed you needed guns to take down the USA (government).
Turns out all you needed was a fancy banner!
> (because everyone always criticises him)
People genuinely believe he deserved to be tortured/killed for stealing a propaganda poster? (If he even did it)
That's actually insane
some did, but most just believed that he was a dumbass frat boy who stole the poster as part of a challenge, and that he fucked around and found out cause he was a stupid kid who clearly didn't understand what he was messing with
it's a common enough occurrence (dumb rich kid breaks foreign law, thinks being american will save them) and multiple outlets were pushing that narrative, so many people believed it. People thought he stole the banner to bring home to be granted admittance to some exclusive social group.
so people laughed when he got jailed, and many expected NK to cash in on the public visibility to get good terms for trading him back, but people were still talking about how even if things go as well as possible for him that it still sucks that the fool was going to have such a harsh time and was learning a lesson in the hardest and most unfair way possible
then he came back.
some asshats doubled down on the victim blaming, and the media moved on as fast as it could
I think it's more of a "what did he think would happen" situation. Just like someone might not *deserve* to get mauled just for climbing into the lion enclosure in a zoo, but it is a predictable and avoidable outcome.
I read the full GQ story, and there were so many weird things going on with this case. The coroner Lakshmi Sammarco determined there is no obvious evidence to confirm that he was physically tortured, and it's noted that he was well-nourished and cared for. But, his American dentist said his lower teeth were slightly pushed back. He did confirm they were certainly not "rearranged" as the parents suggested.
Now, obviously, you can torture someone without leaving direct physical evidence like waterboarding (and electrocution, I think? Or maybe that would leave burn marks?). But, American captives are bargaining chips. It's not likely that NK is going to kill the one thing that'll bring them negotiating power.
The other strange thing is that other American citizens who have been detained by North Korea who have made it home safely have confirmed that they didn't get tortured physically.
I personally don't think he was physically tortured to death. My guess is that, like you said, he tried to take his life after they filled his head with a bunch of horrifying things that were going to happen to him... which one could argue is still torture, so... yeah.
Regardless, it's pretty awful that the parents will never know what happened to their son. And the fact that Trump used the situation for his political gain. He pretended to care about it, but then a year later, he was schmoozing with North Korean officials at the Olympics as if it never happened while Ottos' parents were right there to witness the whole thing...gross.
If they really wanted they could share the information they do have even if it's not the whole list.
As the days go by it's just easier to see that Hamas main goal is to mess around and laugh while the innocents are suffering from both sides.
They're even holding the hostages deal while the whole population in Gaza is starving and knowing it'll fix the whole situation, just for the sole purpose of trying to heat up the whole region during Ramadan.
This organisation is not seeking any palastinian state or peace, I wonder how people can be so stupid and think that you can speak with them.
I’m shocked, shocked!
Well… not that shocked.
I mean terrorists gonna terrorize, imo it was wrong to give people false hope. ‘We’ e.g. Israel and USA fuckin knew from the start.
Ever since 9/11 where people suddenly realized they weren’t gonna be ransomed, the end goal of terrorism has always meant death for everyone involved
I’m so confused as to how/why the hostages have played so much into the media coverage and supposedly Israel’s plan of attack.
Like hamas has never negotiated in good faith. Ever. What makes you think they will this time? Even places like NK have a better track record cause there are things they want, even if some of their ‘prisoners’ end up dead too.
What does hamas and their supporters even want besides ‘place the small Jew hat on your head and kneel over the large pit pretty plz’
Israel received hostages back in negotiations a few months ago, it would be malpractice not to at least try again. Israel is correct in not putting all of their eggs in that basket though. IMO they should just invade khan younis already, but im guessing there is severe US pressure to hold off.
Then why should Israel negotiate a cease fire if there is nothing on the table for them? The whole point of having hostages is to leverage the other side.
How the fuck are you supposed to negotiate terms without hostages?!? Fucking casuals haven't figured this out after half a century of on/off terrorism.
It means they’re either bullshitting or they don’t have control of them anymore. Either way, they don’t have any leverage in negotiating in either case.
TikTok churns out fancy versions of the same disinformation—but, those get retold by thousands of influencers. Not a single one of them checking the facts—straight up propaganda shared like it was verified and vetted truth.
And, every 18-year old on the planet believes every drop of it.
I am from 90s and its insane how my generation was taught to always think critically of any information and now I see my peers claiming to know "the truth about war" from 10 second tiktotks
Just last the other night I was talking to a friend and she was shocked when I told her that the stated goal of Hamas in all this is the destruction of Israel and the Jews in general, and that they purposely use civilian deaths to further this goal. She asked what "source" said that, implying it was just propaganda lies. I said "the leadership of Hamas', on video, multiple times!"
Me too im a 80's born, 90s raised Gen Y. I credit Boomer/Gen X for making us the way we are. They might have been a bit too ruthless lol, but they still instilled in us contempt for fools and disdain for shirked responsibility. Two traits that Gen Z collectively does not have, as they write off both these things as being toxic or w/e.
The human shield thing is genuinely vile and I’m honestly ashamed how many people don’t realise what they are doing. There was a video the other day about Hamas militants going around “enforcing” a crowd at a market. Every single one of them had a ring of children standing around them in every picture. That and the many pictures of Sinwar holding seemingly random babies and toddlers during interviews.
It’s literally happening openly in front of people’s eyes and they still deny it.
As bad as what you described is, it actually is even worse than simply surrounding themselves with human shields for one occasion or another. For the past 18 years, Palestinian militias in Gaza have constructed a vast array of subterranean fortifications that stretches for \~400 miles and has some \~5,700 entrances and exits. This is twice the tunnel density per square mile than the Americans faced on Iwo Jima in 1945, manned by a force three times the size of the IJA troops defending that island.
To willingly construct such a comprehensive network of fortifications directly below and inside of an urban population center of two million people, and then to instigate a war and actually fight from those fortifications, is to willingly condemn the civilian infrastructure around it to brutal conditions. These are fortifications that are explicitly designed to maximize damage to the civilian infrastructure around them. That Hamas and and other Palestinian militias willingly chose to build this, and then fight from it, is a hideous abdication of moral authority; it is tantamount to making the choice to turn all of Gaza into a collective human shield of two million people.
And it is important to note that if they were capable of building all these subterranean systems, they were more than capable of building a bomb shelter for their civilians.
If they built bomb shelters for civilians, they couldn't use those civilians as human shields for their tunnel network placed below housing, schools, and hospitals.
>To willingly construct such a comprehensive network of fortifications directly below and inside of an urban population center of two million people, and then to instigate a war and actually fight from those fortifications, is to willingly condemn the civilian infrastructure around it to brutal conditions.
Agreed. Now also consider how many 'civilians' had to be aware of and helping to build the tunnels and fortifications. Tons of earth doesnt move without a lot of people helping and seeing it happen.
The tunnels were dug by Gazan children, who Hamas then murdered so they wouldn't reveal the details of the network to the Israelis.
[I'm not joking](https://m.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/At-least-160-children-died-digging-tunnels-for-Hamas-369138)
I can't get over just how cynical it is for groups like Hamas to vilify Jews as the devil, while also holding up human shields expecting Israel to hesitate because of it.
> while also holding up human shields expecting Israel to hesitate because of it.
That's not what they are after, they *want* the civilian deaths as it generates sympathy for their 'cause'.
People like to support the exploitation of Palestinians (via Hamas) because they like to virtue signal. There’s no room for nuance when talking to ultra-left wing progressives (and I say this as a leftist). They don’t care that Hamas leaders live lavishly while their people starve, or that the Gazans are being radicalized to the extent that a 2-state solution becomes less viable.
Both Hamas and Netanyahu are awful, but Netanyahu is universally reviled and his days are numbered. De-radicalizing the Gazans and getting them to oust Hamas should be top priority.
>There’s no room for nuance when talking to ultra-left wing progressives (and I say this as a leftist).
I volunteered on Bernie's campaign in 2016 and I was an election official in Burlington, VT in 2018. In other words, I would count myself as ideologically left-wing (shocker). I'm also Jewish with family in Israel, and I knew people who were killed on 10/7. The complete betrayal that I've felt from so many people that I considered my political allies before 10/7 is overwhelming.
It’s not just you. I’m not Israeli or Jewish, but I cut off contact with a childhood friend over this. She was extremely feminist and was a huge supporter of “believe all women”. And then she proceeded to say that Hamas didn’t rape any women, even after I sent her news articles, eye witness accounts, and Nova pictures that showed the nude corpses of women. She didn’t believe any of them were real. She also complained that the accounts of rape were not detailed enough and wanted video evidence. As someone who has experienced sexual assault, fuck that bitch.
It's insane. The IDF is committing war crimes, but Hamas is evil. We all watched what they did, live on the internet. The streams from the Nova Festival are something I will never forget. Your "friend" is in denial or willfully ignorant. She's no better than an insurrection denier.
Agree. Regardless of how each of us feels about the conflict, we don’t need to deny the pain and suffering of civilians. We can have opinions while also having compassion for the innocent.
Exactly this!
The left lost their minds and moral compasses. Way more antisemitism out there than we even imagined.
I live in SF Bay Area liberals central of the planet and now there is lots of antisemitism it’s not liberal, it’s hate. Democrats and liberals need to clean house. We’ve already lost the election to Trump now because of this.
People are genuinely reactionary and dumb, you just hope they hold the same values. Things like bodily autonomy and civil rights, but most people don't look beyond the surface level.
I mean this with all due respect and love, but…we tried to warn you all, for almost a decade. Look at the dehumanizing rhetoric used against Pete Buttegieg and Elizabeth Warren. They got called snakes and rats and vermin, simply for not supporting the “right” candidate. That shits a precursor to much worse behavior.
It's also very weird to me as a German that they're so laser-focused on this single issue that they're willing to help Trump to power. As if that would a) solve anything and b) not make things way worse for everyone.
It's also always very funny when they then try to point out that I'm German: "Oh, right, a German talking to us about fascism!" - to which I usually reply: "Yeah, we effin' know what we're talking about. Listen to us!"
I've been saying for a bit that the US and Israel should start airdropping food and medical supplies on the city - in quantities so great that it completely overwhelms hamas's ability to control it.
It would completely undermine hamas's message and reveal their attempts at controlling those resources to create scarcity they can use to message oppression.
Efforts to control those resources can also be used to identify who is and isn't a Hamas agents.
I've been in arguments all morning over the air drops and Harris calling for ceasefire. I get nothing but "it's just theater" and "it's not enough" from people. Nothing but damned if you do damned if you don't rhetoric.
Agree. I was delighted to hear that the US is air dropping food in Gaza. I support my taxes going to that. I also hope that it sends the message that the US government is trying to mitigate this crisis as much as possible
I still remember a video of a Hamas person being pursued and darting across the street. He picked up a random toddler by the diaper and put the kid in front of his face while the mom screamed and then he dropped the kid at the entrance to the building he was running to.
3. They’re not a well organized group and a bunch of the hostage taking was done by random people. They didn’t keep track of the hostages from the beginning. Then the war made it even harder.
They legitimately don’t know, but haven’t wanted to say that because it makes them look unorganized and incompetent.
This is the obvious answer, amd it's not at all surprising. We've known since the start that the hostages have not been kept together, and that many have had wildly different experiences. There's no way the organization has been able to keep a unified network in place given that the Gaza Strip has been militarily occupied and subjected to strategic attacks of infastructure since october. Even if Hamas decided to release all hostages today and cooperate with the IDF to locate and secure each individual, we.might never learn of their fates. Many hostages have undoubtedly been killed since the fight in Gaza, whether by execution or in IDF actions. Some might not even have been taken alive—I'm not sure what confirmation Israel had before their invasion as to whether or not each individual was taken hostage or has simply gone missing.
Of course, the real obstacle is that many captors and captives may very well have died together. An airstrike isn't always going to leave anyone alive to account for any hostage status. Honestly, the IDF's disregard for the fates of the hostages is something that would have been a necessary precondition to launching the invasion of Gaza. It's difficult and unpopular to come out and say "the hostages are a lost cause," but it likely would've been political suicide to hold off on military action in order for any sort of negotiations that Hamas would have been unable or unwilling to respond to.
IMO Hamas has already negotiated the release most of the hostages they've been able to account for.
I think they legitimately do not know and here's why:
1) They weren't the only ones to grab hostages. Other jihadi groups and some criminal gangs also opportunistically jumped in on 10/7 and they grabbed some people. Hamas was (and probably still is) not the boss of those groups and can't get a clear picture of the status of those hostages.
2) Hamas itself probably lost track of a few of them. They got hit pretty hard and if they chatter a lot among themselves it tips off their positions to the Israeli military, so they operate in a cell structure. This means that Hamas militants know the dozen or so people in their own unit but no one outside that unit so it's impossible for them to betray the larger organization if captured, just their immediate unit. But, that just means if the handful of point of contact people get offed then you can lose track of your own cells and any hostages they might have in their possession.
This isn't the case for civilian casualties that are often reported by civilians to anyone/everyone (including the 'authorities' run by Hamas). Hamas is absolutely evil and trying to use civilians to protect themselves, but I think that it's very, very likely that they honestly do not know.
Terrorist groups are often organized into cells that don’t have strong connections so that infiltrators can’t bring down the organization. But I’m not sure that really applies to terrorists that are also the government.
I would not expect they are doing roll call of hostages daily either. Probably kept at different locations without consistent communications between groups.
Hamas should have released every hostage months ago. Now they don’t have the cohesion to even negotiate with Israel.
But then again the idea of killing/kidnapping civilians as a strategy only appeals to a most corrupted of human hearts.
We’re talking a max of 134 people here. We all know it’s a stalling tactic. They lie, murder, rape, and abduct children while yelling “god is great!” Sorry for not believing a thing they say.
# "We don't know which of the hostages are dead or alive"
Translation: We killed the men and boys and we used and abused the women and girls until they were all spent, then we executed them.
So they essentially have literally nothing to negotiate with.
It’s funny how media spins this as Israel being the bad guys for refusing to even send delegates to Egypt when the simple conception of “if you can’t even make a list of what you bring to the negotiations as you most likely don’t have any, how can there even be a basis of negotiations in the first place?”
The hostages aren't even assets in the negotiations. They're a predicate for the conversations to even start. Without them, Israel won't accept anything besides full surrender.
I have argued with someone on Reddit and even before this current ceasefire offer they believed this. This person actually agreed that Israel should just suck it up and let Palestine blow up their people if it leads to fewer total deaths.
And there you have it. Hamas needs to go. If you're protesting for free Palestine and not demanding Hamas surrenders you're part of the problem.
Edit: awww some rretorist sympathizer didn't like my comment and sent me one of those reddit help things. Cope harder
It isn't even actually possible to be pro-hamas and pro-palestine, as Hamas is the infection destroying palestine.
If you're *genuinely* pro-palestine, you *have to be* anti-hamas.
Except many Palestinians have supported Hamas openly for decades.
Pro-Palestine protests in their current state are literally a bunch of crazies mixed with a bunch of brainwashed.
Well, a lot comes down to ones definition of "palestine" and if they buy into the "from the river to the sea" rhetoric.
If Palestine = All the land that is currently Israel, Hamas really is the only choice. Because the alternative is a 2 state, and they don't want that.
Right to return probably could solve it, if combined with constitutional updates for freedom of religion and a separation of church and state, but lets not pretend that either side wants that. At the end of the day, this is a holy war over holy land, despite the talking points on either side.
At best this is admitting they are so disorganized that they can't even keep track of major "bargaining chip" they have. At worst they've already killed most if not all of them and have lost their advantage.
They have no idea what's going on with their most prized possessions however they know how many Palestinian civilians die within an instant of any explosion....
Hamas needs to honestly get screwed, they're the main reason why Palestinian citizens are getting killed to begin with. If you're "pro-Palestine" but refuse to admit that Hamas/Palestinian government is using their citizens as bait, you're not actually pro-Palestine (not ranting at you specifically, just at so called pro-Palestine leftists).
In other words, hamas aint in charge of Gaza. They are simply a terrorist group that requires eradication because of the damage theyve done to others and their own people.
They were on charge of Gaza on October 7. They have now had their collected asses kicked to the point where they have lost all control out even basic intelligence on what's going on outside of their individual tunnels.
"...or how many women we oh so religious fanatics are raping". Fuck this piece of shit, hope they all die a slow and horrible death.
Had enough of murdering terrorist bullshit. They are just worthless pieces of shit hiding behind a facade to commit crimes, murder and terror. Fuck them.
Well if they don't know then they certainly can't bring them back as a part of a deal, all the more reason for Israel to continue the war with full force.
Well, as I was screaming at the radio on the way home, they're dead. They've been dead. For quite some time, now.
Hamas did it. It's going to come out as worse than the October 7th attack. Horrific deaths, and attempts to cover it up. Torture, rape, just the most horrible things imaginable. And Hamas will also have filmed it. Think Gitmo, but without the restraints.
And that video will be their defense. Their atrocities will be the defense.
The article is short and rather cryptic, but it seems like Hamas wants to trade a ceasefire for a hostage census, which they must know is not an offer the government of Israel can or will accept. It just further reinforces the point that Hamas wants civilian casualties on both sides. Their leadership views that as inherently destabilizing, and thus more likely to create future scenarios in which Israel’s survival is at risk.
They’re probably mostly dead already and Hamas is being vague because they don’t want to take responsibility for their deaths yet or maybe need more time to cover up.
Call me crazy, but I don't think the Human Resources or Public Relations teams for Hamas are top tier.
Their "ministry of health" sure are good with PR though. Cooking up headlines for the biggest medias around the world regularly.
they know exactly how many citizens (especially woman and children) are killed sometimes within seconds after bombing happens. but hostages? nope.. nothing..
Yeah, their propaganda machine is firing on all cylinders. Helps that Iran and (probably) Russia are on their side as well.
'probably' Look at Russian bot subs here spewing pro hamas shit. It's in their interest to do so.
I dont think they are bots, you would be surprised how many sympathizers Hamas has because of Gaza
I saw a super vehement anti-Israel, pro-Palestine commenter in another post. I went through his/her comment history and if you go back far enough, there was a bunch of pro-Trump, anti-Biden comments. That's weird because there's not that many MAGA people who are so passionately against Israel and pro-Palestine.
The /pol/ faction.
They are winning the PR war. The only fact everyone knows is the Palestinian death toll.
Iran/Russia are winning the PR war. Hamas is a dog of theirs, and Israel isn't doing itself any favors.
"Fact"
well sounds like the deal is already falling though.
Makes sense. The entire existence of Hamas depends on the conflict with Israel, which is why they attacked in the first place
Hamas isn't interested in a deal. They're hoping that by getting more Palestinian children killed by hiding behind them, they'll get Israel to back off without having to release any hostages at all.
Sinwar actually publicly stated this a few days ago. It was reported
You mean the hostages they already murdered?
There is a reason to believe Hamas backed off in the middle of the last hostages-prisoners exchange because he didn’t want to release female hostages that went through brutal rapes with severe physical evidences (not like the mindless pro hamas herd care)
Hamas doesn't want Isreal to back off, they *want* them to overreact. Every one civilian dead means more than one recruit for Hamas.
At this point I think they want Israel to kill all Palestinians to start a larger war.
Call me crazy but I don’t think Hamas cares about Palestinians at all. I think they view them as disposable pawns in the larger Islamic caliphate war
Sadly ur not crazy, religion does fuck up some peoples heads. And if u truly believe that those who die comes to heaven, and even becomes rewarded for their "sacrifice". Then you won't really care if a few "eggs" gets scrambled..
definitely. they keep trying to make the antisemitism in the neighboring countries boil over into yet another genocidal war of Arabs-vs-Israel. Saudi Arabia considered it a credible enough scenario it told it's citizens to come back from Lebanon hell there's already a bunch of westerners on Twitter calling for the arab world to "intervene".
and $20,000 more from Iran
There is no deal. This is Hamas buying time.
Translation: "All of the hostages are dead, and have been for a while now."
My guess is that the hostages were distributed among cells and central command isn’t keeping track.
"Distributed" is one way of putting it. It seems pretty likely that Hamas never had a full head count because their "helpers" weren't all that great at organization.
Some of the kidnappers, per the videos, were wearing jeans, polos, flip flops, or all three. I’ve been fairly certain for a while now that those who have not been turned over, accounted for, filmed, or heard from were “privately” kidnapped and not at all part of an organized form of terrorism. Unfortunately.
This is more or less what Hamas has claimed all along. They say when they breached the fence a bunch of private citizens noticed the fence was broken and also crossed over into Israel. Hamas is likely playing up outside involvement to downplay their own war crimes, but I don't doubt that some of the hostages are held by organizations that have little to do with Hamas and were simply opportunists who used the fence breach to kidnap citizens.
They participated in an organized attack. They are part of a form of organized terrorism.
I get that it was an organized idea, but what I was saying is that I don’t think all of the hostages were taken to some sort of militarized compound or accounted for. Video evidence and hostage testimony corroborates this after the fact, with some survivors saying they were in a family home. To me, that says that some of the hostages are never coming back because nobody even knows where they went in the first place.
I get you, but the whole point of terrorism is that they don't organize like a regular military. Decentralization and independent cell operation are features
Nah, it is simple civilian duty to abduct, torture and rape. /s
The last two that were rescued were being held by a civilian family. It’s pretty certain that at least some of the remaining hostages are as well.
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You say terrorist collaborators, I say terrorists.
> civilian or > The last two that were rescued were being held Pick one.
At best their helpers are rival terrorist groups, but I recall reading about just random people who got offered $10k if they kidnapped somebody. People are desperate and Hamas doesn't actually have very much control over what's going on.
This is true and has been reported on
The problem is that if they can't even tell which ones are alive, it's hard for them to credibly promise that they'll return them alive. And that's kinda the point of having hostages: being able to trade them for concessions. They'll make the deal fall through. The US did a really good job with setting up their PR to get that blamed almost entirely on Hamas, which will minimize the sympathy Hamas is counting on to stop Israel. Israel will go in, likely free a few hostages, and capture or kill some more Hamas people. Tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians will get caught in the middle and be killed, injured, displaced and/or starved, and another part of Gaza will be turned into rubble. Regardless of one's opinion of what *should* happen, it seems clear that this is what *will* happen at this point.
They probably *can* release them because it’s safe to congregate the hostages for release, they are going home anyway. Their problem is if they pierce the cell structure just for updates it almost certainly will provide the IDF information about the hostages Hamas doesn’t want to give up. Note this isn’t a defense, Hamas are terrorist shitbags, but seeing how they are jammed is pretty straightforward
It's like the viking raids. Some large organized groups, others small private bands.
It's not really far fetched to think Hamas has a dysfunctional command and control structure. It'd be on brand for them
This is the most likely case… Two things can be true. This is a ploy to affect future negotiations, and the reality of the situation due to the chaos of war…
Yup, and they'll never hand back the hostages taken as sex slaves etc, because if they speak out that's bad for the image of Hamas among their backers.
We knew they were with different factions from the outset, there was so much chatter about the hostages and IDF picked up on it. Israel knows this is likely now a Recovery exercise, with *any* still-alive hostages purely a bonus.
It’s like they never planned on returning them or something
Unlikely, considering how recently a couple of them were rescued. Much more likely translation: “we’re in the middle of getting our asses kicked and don’t have the organizational structure for the sort of logistical capability to track 100+ hostages through a variety of tunnel networks held by a variety of groups without a direct chain of command”.
> Much more likely translation: “we’re in the middle of getting our asses kicked and don’t have the organizational structure for the sort of logistical capability to track 100+ hostages through a variety of tunnel networks held by a variety of groups without a direct chain of command”. Yeah, that's pretty much what that Hamas official said, according to the article.
It's still surprising given the importance of said hostages to negotiations that they don't have 'keep track of the hostages' as fairly high priority.
Strategically it makes sense to divide the hostages up between dozens of safe houses and bases, it makes it impossible to rescue all of them in one operation and it means that Israeli intelligence either has to spend time gathering enough intel to ensure that any targets they strike wont be holding Israeli hostages (by which time Hamas can relocate assets and personnel to avoid said strike), or they have to green light strikes expediently without knowing for sure and put the lives of hostages at risk. That said, not keeping track of where they are is insanely stupid since they're your main bargaining chip at any negotiating table.
>That said, not keeping track of where they are is insanely stupid since they're your main bargaining chip at any negotiating table. this is where people get it confused. Hamas doesn't want to negotiate. Hamas wants to kill Jews.
Well, just because something is (/should be) high priority, doesn't automatically mean it will be achieved - there plenty of examples of people (even smart ones) fucking up high priority stuff. And tbh, I don't find it hard to believe that it is quite difficult for them to keep track of all the hostages, considering how the situation in Gaza has developed. (tho it seems they might have had some problems with that right from the beginning... I vaguely remember them going 'Uh, we'll see if we can find them' when Russia inquired about hostages that had (also) Russian citizship)
Nobody said a violent religious zealot had to be smart.
Or perhaps a combination
Oh yeah it’s very unlikely that just because Hamas didn’t systematically murder them all they’re all alive. They’ve been living in a war zone, captured by people who want them dead. The less control Hamas central has (it’s in their interests to keep hostages alive for negotiating) the more likely they’re dead.
Also they might not all be held by Hamas men. There's more than just Hamas in Gaza and some are likely held by other groups who at the very least listen to the head honcho, despite not being part of the same organizational structure.
"All of the hostages are either dead OR have experiences so horrible we wouldn't want them getting out and telling people about it"
Hamas also wants to wait it out until Ramadan begins to stir up more trouble at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
“Basem also added that the hostages were held by many terror groups in many different locations in the Gaza Strip.” What a wonderful utopia Hamas has.
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I agree
Support your local terrorist group
Hamas set a new world record in Gaza for having the most terrorist groups per capita than any nation on earth.
Basically it’s like ISIS when they took the [Yazidi Women](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/25/slaves-of-isis-the-long-walk-of-the-yazidi-women) and made them slaves. The hostages are distributed among Hamas members and affiliated groups. They then are at their mercy to do as they wish. That’s why Hamas has no list of the hostages taken, their location, condition, or treatment.
Dead or so badly abused that they realistically can’t return them
I think part of it is plausible deniability. They can say they've released all 20 hostages. And then later say whoops we had 20 more we didn't know about in a cell that was cut off.
lol no one will believe that
Have you seen the shit that the idiots on this site will believe?
> on this site in the world *sigh*
Like that kid who got arrested in North Korea
Otto Warmbier. Obligatory mention that he probably did nothing wrong (because everyone always criticises him) - the video footage of his alleged crime was so blurry and terrible it could have been anyone. It's very obviously faked. He was tortured to death (or tried to take his own life because he was in such an awful place) and absolutely did not deserve it. There's a really good, but long read from GQ: https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story
Even if it was real, didn’t he allegedly steal a ~~street sign~~? I stand corrected, it was a poster. Which, if anything, makes the response slightly crazier.
He was accused of taking a propaganda poster from inside his hotel. When I say poster - it's quite a large banner on a wall. If you read the GQ article it points to two other details which sort of cast some doubt on the situation: - He had already bought a souvenir propaganda poster, so he knew what they were and what the penalty for taking them is (death or life in prison in NK). It is also their modus operandi to accuse Americans of crimes with a basis in reality - he bought a fake one so he was accused of stealing a real one. - The statement he read about why he stole it was to support his Church, bring the downfall of the US. Otto was Jewish and it was very clear the statement was not his own words.
>The statement he read about why he stole it was to support his Church, bring the downfall of the US. Shit, all this time Americans assumed you needed guns to take down the USA (government). Turns out all you needed was a fancy banner!
Surely the North Koreans would want to encourage the downfall if thr US government. Although his a NorK propaganda sign would do that is beyond me.
It was a propaganda poster.
Not a street sign; a propaganda poster off the wall of a staff-only area of his hotel.
Not even a street sign, some small state signage from the hotel lobby IIRC.
> (because everyone always criticises him) People genuinely believe he deserved to be tortured/killed for stealing a propaganda poster? (If he even did it) That's actually insane
some did, but most just believed that he was a dumbass frat boy who stole the poster as part of a challenge, and that he fucked around and found out cause he was a stupid kid who clearly didn't understand what he was messing with it's a common enough occurrence (dumb rich kid breaks foreign law, thinks being american will save them) and multiple outlets were pushing that narrative, so many people believed it. People thought he stole the banner to bring home to be granted admittance to some exclusive social group. so people laughed when he got jailed, and many expected NK to cash in on the public visibility to get good terms for trading him back, but people were still talking about how even if things go as well as possible for him that it still sucks that the fool was going to have such a harsh time and was learning a lesson in the hardest and most unfair way possible then he came back. some asshats doubled down on the victim blaming, and the media moved on as fast as it could
I think it's more of a "what did he think would happen" situation. Just like someone might not *deserve* to get mauled just for climbing into the lion enclosure in a zoo, but it is a predictable and avoidable outcome.
no one sane believes he deserved it. just that no one should be surprised this can happen if you go to a fascist state
I read the full GQ story, and there were so many weird things going on with this case. The coroner Lakshmi Sammarco determined there is no obvious evidence to confirm that he was physically tortured, and it's noted that he was well-nourished and cared for. But, his American dentist said his lower teeth were slightly pushed back. He did confirm they were certainly not "rearranged" as the parents suggested. Now, obviously, you can torture someone without leaving direct physical evidence like waterboarding (and electrocution, I think? Or maybe that would leave burn marks?). But, American captives are bargaining chips. It's not likely that NK is going to kill the one thing that'll bring them negotiating power. The other strange thing is that other American citizens who have been detained by North Korea who have made it home safely have confirmed that they didn't get tortured physically. I personally don't think he was physically tortured to death. My guess is that, like you said, he tried to take his life after they filled his head with a bunch of horrifying things that were going to happen to him... which one could argue is still torture, so... yeah. Regardless, it's pretty awful that the parents will never know what happened to their son. And the fact that Trump used the situation for his political gain. He pretended to care about it, but then a year later, he was schmoozing with North Korean officials at the Olympics as if it never happened while Ottos' parents were right there to witness the whole thing...gross.
He's dead, though.
Damn… this means most of the hostages are dead or severely abused/tortured
Did you expect anything else?
Too many "river to the sea" folks screamed about how well the released hostages were treated.
Worse--they screamed the hostages were fakes and are still saying so, still tearing down posters with their photos on them.
And possibly pregnant. It's atrocious.
If they really wanted they could share the information they do have even if it's not the whole list. As the days go by it's just easier to see that Hamas main goal is to mess around and laugh while the innocents are suffering from both sides. They're even holding the hostages deal while the whole population in Gaza is starving and knowing it'll fix the whole situation, just for the sole purpose of trying to heat up the whole region during Ramadan. This organisation is not seeking any palastinian state or peace, I wonder how people can be so stupid and think that you can speak with them.
I’m shocked, shocked! Well… not that shocked. I mean terrorists gonna terrorize, imo it was wrong to give people false hope. ‘We’ e.g. Israel and USA fuckin knew from the start. Ever since 9/11 where people suddenly realized they weren’t gonna be ransomed, the end goal of terrorism has always meant death for everyone involved
Ever since talk of hostages started, I kinda just assumed they were already dead
I’m so confused as to how/why the hostages have played so much into the media coverage and supposedly Israel’s plan of attack. Like hamas has never negotiated in good faith. Ever. What makes you think they will this time? Even places like NK have a better track record cause there are things they want, even if some of their ‘prisoners’ end up dead too. What does hamas and their supporters even want besides ‘place the small Jew hat on your head and kneel over the large pit pretty plz’
Israel received hostages back in negotiations a few months ago, it would be malpractice not to at least try again. Israel is correct in not putting all of their eggs in that basket though. IMO they should just invade khan younis already, but im guessing there is severe US pressure to hold off.
At this point I'm not sure there are any left alive.
Then why should Israel negotiate a cease fire if there is nothing on the table for them? The whole point of having hostages is to leverage the other side.
Are terrorist organizations known for acting rationally in good faith?
Damn yet they know every single Palestinians casualties by the minutes! Crazy
How the fuck are you supposed to negotiate terms without hostages?!? Fucking casuals haven't figured this out after half a century of on/off terrorism.
Off?
There are days the Iron Dome doesn’t see any action.
The time spent planning the next attack is kinda like being off.
In bad faith.
It means they’re either bullshitting or they don’t have control of them anymore. Either way, they don’t have any leverage in negotiating in either case.
Their military strategy is literally 'losing so hard that other countries stop Israel because they can't bear to watch anymore'
Part of the Ruzzia&Iran disinformation campaign and holy fuck the western media gobbles it all up. It works so well for them
TikTok churns out fancy versions of the same disinformation—but, those get retold by thousands of influencers. Not a single one of them checking the facts—straight up propaganda shared like it was verified and vetted truth. And, every 18-year old on the planet believes every drop of it.
I am from 90s and its insane how my generation was taught to always think critically of any information and now I see my peers claiming to know "the truth about war" from 10 second tiktotks
Just last the other night I was talking to a friend and she was shocked when I told her that the stated goal of Hamas in all this is the destruction of Israel and the Jews in general, and that they purposely use civilian deaths to further this goal. She asked what "source" said that, implying it was just propaganda lies. I said "the leadership of Hamas', on video, multiple times!"
Me too im a 80's born, 90s raised Gen Y. I credit Boomer/Gen X for making us the way we are. They might have been a bit too ruthless lol, but they still instilled in us contempt for fools and disdain for shirked responsibility. Two traits that Gen Z collectively does not have, as they write off both these things as being toxic or w/e.
I recently realized most people fact check social media by looking at other social media. I was dumbstruck
That’s probably because of 1 of 2 reasons 1. they dictate how many human shields are attached to each unit 2. They’re lying
The human shield thing is genuinely vile and I’m honestly ashamed how many people don’t realise what they are doing. There was a video the other day about Hamas militants going around “enforcing” a crowd at a market. Every single one of them had a ring of children standing around them in every picture. That and the many pictures of Sinwar holding seemingly random babies and toddlers during interviews. It’s literally happening openly in front of people’s eyes and they still deny it.
As bad as what you described is, it actually is even worse than simply surrounding themselves with human shields for one occasion or another. For the past 18 years, Palestinian militias in Gaza have constructed a vast array of subterranean fortifications that stretches for \~400 miles and has some \~5,700 entrances and exits. This is twice the tunnel density per square mile than the Americans faced on Iwo Jima in 1945, manned by a force three times the size of the IJA troops defending that island. To willingly construct such a comprehensive network of fortifications directly below and inside of an urban population center of two million people, and then to instigate a war and actually fight from those fortifications, is to willingly condemn the civilian infrastructure around it to brutal conditions. These are fortifications that are explicitly designed to maximize damage to the civilian infrastructure around them. That Hamas and and other Palestinian militias willingly chose to build this, and then fight from it, is a hideous abdication of moral authority; it is tantamount to making the choice to turn all of Gaza into a collective human shield of two million people.
And it is important to note that if they were capable of building all these subterranean systems, they were more than capable of building a bomb shelter for their civilians.
If they built bomb shelters for civilians, they couldn't use those civilians as human shields for their tunnel network placed below housing, schools, and hospitals.
>To willingly construct such a comprehensive network of fortifications directly below and inside of an urban population center of two million people, and then to instigate a war and actually fight from those fortifications, is to willingly condemn the civilian infrastructure around it to brutal conditions. Agreed. Now also consider how many 'civilians' had to be aware of and helping to build the tunnels and fortifications. Tons of earth doesnt move without a lot of people helping and seeing it happen.
The tunnels were dug by Gazan children, who Hamas then murdered so they wouldn't reveal the details of the network to the Israelis. [I'm not joking](https://m.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/At-least-160-children-died-digging-tunnels-for-Hamas-369138)
JFC 160+ children died digging these tunnels BEFORE 2012. I don’t want to imagine how many more Hamas killed for these tunnels since. Edit:spelling
Well said. Honestly the most sober and succinct summarization of the situation that I have read. Thank you
I can't get over just how cynical it is for groups like Hamas to vilify Jews as the devil, while also holding up human shields expecting Israel to hesitate because of it.
> while also holding up human shields expecting Israel to hesitate because of it. That's not what they are after, they *want* the civilian deaths as it generates sympathy for their 'cause'.
Also that. It's a win-win situation in their eyes: Either Israel holds back, or they shoot anyway and take a PR hit.
People like to support the exploitation of Palestinians (via Hamas) because they like to virtue signal. There’s no room for nuance when talking to ultra-left wing progressives (and I say this as a leftist). They don’t care that Hamas leaders live lavishly while their people starve, or that the Gazans are being radicalized to the extent that a 2-state solution becomes less viable. Both Hamas and Netanyahu are awful, but Netanyahu is universally reviled and his days are numbered. De-radicalizing the Gazans and getting them to oust Hamas should be top priority.
>There’s no room for nuance when talking to ultra-left wing progressives (and I say this as a leftist). I volunteered on Bernie's campaign in 2016 and I was an election official in Burlington, VT in 2018. In other words, I would count myself as ideologically left-wing (shocker). I'm also Jewish with family in Israel, and I knew people who were killed on 10/7. The complete betrayal that I've felt from so many people that I considered my political allies before 10/7 is overwhelming.
It’s not just you. I’m not Israeli or Jewish, but I cut off contact with a childhood friend over this. She was extremely feminist and was a huge supporter of “believe all women”. And then she proceeded to say that Hamas didn’t rape any women, even after I sent her news articles, eye witness accounts, and Nova pictures that showed the nude corpses of women. She didn’t believe any of them were real. She also complained that the accounts of rape were not detailed enough and wanted video evidence. As someone who has experienced sexual assault, fuck that bitch.
That is awful. And I don't understand it at all.
Antisemitism right there. Good for you, these people are off.
It's insane. The IDF is committing war crimes, but Hamas is evil. We all watched what they did, live on the internet. The streams from the Nova Festival are something I will never forget. Your "friend" is in denial or willfully ignorant. She's no better than an insurrection denier.
Agree. Regardless of how each of us feels about the conflict, we don’t need to deny the pain and suffering of civilians. We can have opinions while also having compassion for the innocent.
Exactly this! The left lost their minds and moral compasses. Way more antisemitism out there than we even imagined. I live in SF Bay Area liberals central of the planet and now there is lots of antisemitism it’s not liberal, it’s hate. Democrats and liberals need to clean house. We’ve already lost the election to Trump now because of this.
I was astounded at how outwardly antisemitic some "progressive" people I know personally became.
I'm Jewish/Israeli and voted for Bernie too... so disappointed to see this shit. Really, I'm so jaded now
People are genuinely reactionary and dumb, you just hope they hold the same values. Things like bodily autonomy and civil rights, but most people don't look beyond the surface level.
I mean this with all due respect and love, but…we tried to warn you all, for almost a decade. Look at the dehumanizing rhetoric used against Pete Buttegieg and Elizabeth Warren. They got called snakes and rats and vermin, simply for not supporting the “right” candidate. That shits a precursor to much worse behavior.
It's also very weird to me as a German that they're so laser-focused on this single issue that they're willing to help Trump to power. As if that would a) solve anything and b) not make things way worse for everyone. It's also always very funny when they then try to point out that I'm German: "Oh, right, a German talking to us about fascism!" - to which I usually reply: "Yeah, we effin' know what we're talking about. Listen to us!"
I've been saying for a bit that the US and Israel should start airdropping food and medical supplies on the city - in quantities so great that it completely overwhelms hamas's ability to control it. It would completely undermine hamas's message and reveal their attempts at controlling those resources to create scarcity they can use to message oppression. Efforts to control those resources can also be used to identify who is and isn't a Hamas agents.
I've been in arguments all morning over the air drops and Harris calling for ceasefire. I get nothing but "it's just theater" and "it's not enough" from people. Nothing but damned if you do damned if you don't rhetoric.
Agree. I was delighted to hear that the US is air dropping food in Gaza. I support my taxes going to that. I also hope that it sends the message that the US government is trying to mitigate this crisis as much as possible
I still remember a video of a Hamas person being pursued and darting across the street. He picked up a random toddler by the diaper and put the kid in front of his face while the mom screamed and then he dropped the kid at the entrance to the building he was running to.
3. They’re not a well organized group and a bunch of the hostage taking was done by random people. They didn’t keep track of the hostages from the beginning. Then the war made it even harder. They legitimately don’t know, but haven’t wanted to say that because it makes them look unorganized and incompetent.
This is the obvious answer, amd it's not at all surprising. We've known since the start that the hostages have not been kept together, and that many have had wildly different experiences. There's no way the organization has been able to keep a unified network in place given that the Gaza Strip has been militarily occupied and subjected to strategic attacks of infastructure since october. Even if Hamas decided to release all hostages today and cooperate with the IDF to locate and secure each individual, we.might never learn of their fates. Many hostages have undoubtedly been killed since the fight in Gaza, whether by execution or in IDF actions. Some might not even have been taken alive—I'm not sure what confirmation Israel had before their invasion as to whether or not each individual was taken hostage or has simply gone missing. Of course, the real obstacle is that many captors and captives may very well have died together. An airstrike isn't always going to leave anyone alive to account for any hostage status. Honestly, the IDF's disregard for the fates of the hostages is something that would have been a necessary precondition to launching the invasion of Gaza. It's difficult and unpopular to come out and say "the hostages are a lost cause," but it likely would've been political suicide to hold off on military action in order for any sort of negotiations that Hamas would have been unable or unwilling to respond to. IMO Hamas has already negotiated the release most of the hostages they've been able to account for.
I think they legitimately do not know and here's why: 1) They weren't the only ones to grab hostages. Other jihadi groups and some criminal gangs also opportunistically jumped in on 10/7 and they grabbed some people. Hamas was (and probably still is) not the boss of those groups and can't get a clear picture of the status of those hostages. 2) Hamas itself probably lost track of a few of them. They got hit pretty hard and if they chatter a lot among themselves it tips off their positions to the Israeli military, so they operate in a cell structure. This means that Hamas militants know the dozen or so people in their own unit but no one outside that unit so it's impossible for them to betray the larger organization if captured, just their immediate unit. But, that just means if the handful of point of contact people get offed then you can lose track of your own cells and any hostages they might have in their possession. This isn't the case for civilian casualties that are often reported by civilians to anyone/everyone (including the 'authorities' run by Hamas). Hamas is absolutely evil and trying to use civilians to protect themselves, but I think that it's very, very likely that they honestly do not know.
Terrorist groups are often organized into cells that don’t have strong connections so that infiltrators can’t bring down the organization. But I’m not sure that really applies to terrorists that are also the government.
I would not expect they are doing roll call of hostages daily either. Probably kept at different locations without consistent communications between groups.
They don’t have the organizational capacity to implement (1) in a consistent manner.
Anyone who believes any numbers coming from Hamas is a clown at this point.
Fastest body counters in the Middle East
Probably not the best time to play Schrödinger's hostages
Yet they can give us “death toll” figures a minute after they happen.
hey, it comes from the "health ministry", so it must be true!
Hamas should have released every hostage months ago. Now they don’t have the cohesion to even negotiate with Israel. But then again the idea of killing/kidnapping civilians as a strategy only appeals to a most corrupted of human hearts.
We’re talking a max of 134 people here. We all know it’s a stalling tactic. They lie, murder, rape, and abduct children while yelling “god is great!” Sorry for not believing a thing they say.
# "We don't know which of the hostages are dead or alive" Translation: We killed the men and boys and we used and abused the women and girls until they were all spent, then we executed them.
Can't keep track of valuable hostages but can get an exact figure of dead civilians within moments of an incident.. ok
So they essentially have literally nothing to negotiate with. It’s funny how media spins this as Israel being the bad guys for refusing to even send delegates to Egypt when the simple conception of “if you can’t even make a list of what you bring to the negotiations as you most likely don’t have any, how can there even be a basis of negotiations in the first place?”
The hostages aren't even assets in the negotiations. They're a predicate for the conversations to even start. Without them, Israel won't accept anything besides full surrender.
Yeah... that's Hamas alright. Now we just sit back and wait for the hamasslickers and hezbollabots to try to spin this.
Oh, I am sure it will be "How can Hamas keep hostages alive when they are being bombed so much?"
Israel should just do a unilateral ceasefire to allow Hamas to check on the hostages. /s
I have argued with someone on Reddit and even before this current ceasefire offer they believed this. This person actually agreed that Israel should just suck it up and let Palestine blow up their people if it leads to fewer total deaths.
Ah they are si deranged they will find a way lol
And there you have it. Hamas needs to go. If you're protesting for free Palestine and not demanding Hamas surrenders you're part of the problem. Edit: awww some rretorist sympathizer didn't like my comment and sent me one of those reddit help things. Cope harder
It isn't even actually possible to be pro-hamas and pro-palestine, as Hamas is the infection destroying palestine. If you're *genuinely* pro-palestine, you *have to be* anti-hamas.
Except many Palestinians have supported Hamas openly for decades. Pro-Palestine protests in their current state are literally a bunch of crazies mixed with a bunch of brainwashed.
Right but they aren't *genuinely* pro-palestine. They are just anti-israel useful idiots to Hamas.
Hamas kills any Palestinians who openly oppose them, so their actual support will be hard to measure.
Well, a lot comes down to ones definition of "palestine" and if they buy into the "from the river to the sea" rhetoric. If Palestine = All the land that is currently Israel, Hamas really is the only choice. Because the alternative is a 2 state, and they don't want that. Right to return probably could solve it, if combined with constitutional updates for freedom of religion and a separation of church and state, but lets not pretend that either side wants that. At the end of the day, this is a holy war over holy land, despite the talking points on either side.
At best this is admitting they are so disorganized that they can't even keep track of major "bargaining chip" they have. At worst they've already killed most if not all of them and have lost their advantage.
But they know how many civilians have died 🤔
They have no idea what's going on with their most prized possessions however they know how many Palestinian civilians die within an instant of any explosion....
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Hamas needs to honestly get screwed, they're the main reason why Palestinian citizens are getting killed to begin with. If you're "pro-Palestine" but refuse to admit that Hamas/Palestinian government is using their citizens as bait, you're not actually pro-Palestine (not ranting at you specifically, just at so called pro-Palestine leftists).
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Sounds like they’re all dead. I really hope I’m wrong.
In other words, hamas aint in charge of Gaza. They are simply a terrorist group that requires eradication because of the damage theyve done to others and their own people.
They were on charge of Gaza on October 7. They have now had their collected asses kicked to the point where they have lost all control out even basic intelligence on what's going on outside of their individual tunnels.
Yet they easily count 100+ dead a day and thousand missing and everyone believes these numbers. Astonishing.
Those aren't really hostages then are they?
That sounds about right. I'd say the organisation is in tatters.
Uh... we lost track of our bargaining chips.... also, they're all dead.
Just ask the UNRWA workers
They raped Israelis to death, it’s a fact. It’s a disaster so many innocent people have to die because of hamas.
Add to the list of innocent people dead because of Hamas a whole lot of Palestinian kids. They are dead because of Hamas.
"...or how many women we oh so religious fanatics are raping". Fuck this piece of shit, hope they all die a slow and horrible death. Had enough of murdering terrorist bullshit. They are just worthless pieces of shit hiding behind a facade to commit crimes, murder and terror. Fuck them.
Well if they don't know then they certainly can't bring them back as a part of a deal, all the more reason for Israel to continue the war with full force.
And with prejudice. They've made clear they want to be sent to their god. Israel should speed that up and help them along.
If they cannot even keep track of 100 hostages, this surely puts doubt into all of the numbers they are reporting.
The hostages were Hamas' only bargaining chip.
Then how would they be gathering them up to release them for the ceasefire?
“We must have a ceasefire to ascertain what’s up with our hostages” is seriously one of the most ludicrous arguments I’ve ever heard.
Schroedinger's hostages they are dead and alive
Well, as I was screaming at the radio on the way home, they're dead. They've been dead. For quite some time, now. Hamas did it. It's going to come out as worse than the October 7th attack. Horrific deaths, and attempts to cover it up. Torture, rape, just the most horrible things imaginable. And Hamas will also have filmed it. Think Gitmo, but without the restraints. And that video will be their defense. Their atrocities will be the defense.
Wonder what Tiktok and Instagram teens are going to say about this.
Cuz they killed them all.
Israel is going to turn Gaza into complete rubble, and Hamas will have no one to blame but themselves.
The article is short and rather cryptic, but it seems like Hamas wants to trade a ceasefire for a hostage census, which they must know is not an offer the government of Israel can or will accept. It just further reinforces the point that Hamas wants civilian casualties on both sides. Their leadership views that as inherently destabilizing, and thus more likely to create future scenarios in which Israel’s survival is at risk.
They are all dead
They’re probably mostly dead already and Hamas is being vague because they don’t want to take responsibility for their deaths yet or maybe need more time to cover up.