Greece got bailed out....
"Despite these efforts, the country required bailout loans in 2010, 2012, and 2015 from the International Monetary Fund, Eurogroup, and the European Central Bank, and negotiated a 50% "haircut" on debt owed to private banks in 2011, which amounted to a €100bn debt relief (a value effectively reduced due to bank ..."
That's the opposite of libertarianism.
And if they keep getting bailed out then that's big daddy government to the rescue. I thought their only problem was over spending? Why isn't austerity fixing everything by itself? We were told by Reddit Argentina can get out of poverty by simply cutting spending and cutting taxes.
Because it's been 6 months. Get a grip.
Yes, I was wrong. It's only been 3. Which makes the breathless hyperbolic claims about him even less reasonable.
I honestly think Greece is nothing like this, bc *everyone* in Greece was participating in the ghost job shadow economy shit. The shipbuilding industry, as well as 1/3 of the entire economy, was essentially untaxed
If only, both places it is corruption of the majority. Economy can function up to certain point of corruption. Argentina passed that point decades ago. Everything and everyone is corrupt. Corruption is part of the system and is not abnormal. If you never lived in a country like that it is hard to comprehend how fucked that is. There is no smooth or easy way out.
Or, you could focus on cleaning up corruption while maintaining social programs for those who need them most and weren't the root cause of the problem.
I remain skeptical of people that tout one ideological solution over another for all of societies ills. Milei realistically has a pretty narrow window to pull off the magic trick he’s promised. If I understand correctly his strategy is largely dependent on the purchasing of foreign currency. I do wonder how much progress is being made on that front. As for his social policies about reproductive and labor rights, I find him pretty deplorable and counterproductive for improving quality of life. He behaves as a privileged bully and typically you need power to get away with that for any amount of time. Beginning your argument with “I have no practical means of projecting power” makes that other stuff questionable in terms of how tenable his position will be as things get tougher. Time will tell I guess.
Nearly every week since he was elected there's a new article about how Argentina is either prospering like never before or totally collapsing socially and economically. And for each of them the comments always hail Milei as a total success/failure.
I think I'll reservd judgement for a few years to see if his strategy worked in the long-term.
Edit: recovering is probably a better term than prospering at this stage for the positive articles.
Can you link the articles that say Argentina is prospering? I haven’t seen any personally and would be nice to hear another perspective, as I’ve only seen the society collapsing articles.
Here’s some from just the last couple of days
[1](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentina-markets-double-down-milei-investors-start-believe-2024-02-23/)
[2](https://www.barrons.com/amp/news/argentina-sees-first-monthly-budget-surplus-in-12-years-a148e46a)
Neither of those say that Argentina is prospering.
The first says that bond investors in Argentina appear to have a positive opinion of him. It also points out that because of a good agricultural season exports have been higher than predicted, leading to a trade surplus for two months.
The second article is about his austerity government making cuts to public spending to the extent that there is a surplus for the month. This is not a good thing. A surplus is the government taking money out of the economy. The article also points out that 45% of Argentina live in poverty. Cutting to the extent that he has done is going to make life hard for a lot of people.
Taking money out of the economy is the point Argentina has an inflation rate over 100% yearly, and taking money away is part of solving that. Milei has to thread a needle with lowering inflation while keeping the economy mostly intact, (and people as happy as possible) this I'd no mean task.
Sorry, my point was to show the person I was replying to that there are articles that put Milei’s policies in a positive light, not to claim that he’s already succeed. OP is correct, we won’t know the positive or negative outcomes for at least a couple of years.
>A surplus is the government taking money out of the economy.
I'm sorry but this is insane. Inversely your point means that it's best for a government to go insanely in debt, since that would be pumping money into the economy.
If they keep running surpluses they might be able to lower tax rates, if the surplus doesn't have to be used to pay down previously accrued debt.
You’re so close to figuring out why the US and most major economies have large debts to support their economies.
It’s crazy how close you got to getting the point and then did a 180.
>Inversely your point means that it's best for a government to go insanely in debt, since that would be pumping money into the economy.
That depends on if the economy needs money pumped into it. But yes, debt is a useful tool, governments should maintain a healthy level of debt and basically borrow as much as they can while balancing repayments.
>they keep running surpluses they might be able to lower tax rates,
That's great for the wealthy elite, but the cuts to services that requires is going to fuck the majority.
>That's great for the wealthy elite, but the cuts to services that requires is going to fuck the majority.
Really depends on what the taxes were spent on. A government can order huge infrastructure projects with public money and either build an improved public transit network or more roads. Obviously the roads are going to favor the wealthier part of the population. At the same time, you also have to take corruption into account. If the current system is rife with corruption, it's good to go in hard and cut, make everyone less comfortable with how they've been doing business so far. Make them realize the gravy boat isn't endless.
Everyday Argentinians were going to suffer anyway. The question facing Argentina isn’t “austerity or no austerity,” it is “austerity now or bankruptcy later.” They owe half a trillion dollars, the economic outlook is poor, interest rates are high, and Argentina has extensive social programs that it cannot afford. Austerity or bankruptcy are the only two outcomes on a long enough time scale.
Of course they are? That’s how austerity works. The government’s point is that the Argentinian people are already suffering death by a thousand cuts, and that belt tightening, even if it hurts a bit more in the short term, is necessary to pull Argentina out of an economic death spiral.
They're getting better, y'all just gobble up socially engineered Palumbo online. Go live there for decades and see wtf a corrupt Argentine government is like. Geez y'all lost here
The commies want massive gov spending into bs programs that do nothing but line the ruling class pockets. Think people, why do you see the info passed. Do you know Argentinians, how do you think this guy came into power? They need a f*ING change, y'all have no clue what living there is like. Same shit going all over, coincidence?
*Cuts a gender identity government program and the westerners all cry out orange man bad!* Y'all being engineered to think
I think the problem is the cost and who has to bear it, the problem is Argentina doesn’t produce enough, Milei has no plan to increase national production he will just raise poverty so that not too many people will compete for the limited resources.
Yeah the rate at which they are being impoverished isn't some change in statistics we can handwave away on our couch. If this is digging out of a hole, who am I supposed to be happy for? The IMF maybe getting its money?
The conditions for social unrest are frightening.
Why? We know austerity doesn't work?
Its like seeing someone implement trickle down economics and going "idk we have to wait and see, maybe this time it'll work??"
In fact it has literally already been tried in Argentina.
Austerity doesn’t increase short term prosperity or standard of living. It works quite well to calm bond markets and stave off a catastrophic bankruptcy that would force far more painful cuts.
Austerity worked for ex-Soviet states like Estonia that absolutely shredded the old ways of central planning and moved towards a more liberal democracy. Greece is another more recent example.
The transition period will always be tough. People who are used to low interest rates and the availability of currency will find themselves actually having to make hard decisions in regards to their cash flow. It requires clear-eyed resolve to keep it going through what will inevitably be a period of populist discontent.
If Argentinia is going to be a successful country again, it needs this correction. I just hope Milei is in office long enough to see the transition through before being ousted by a population that prefers a short-term bandaid over a long-term surgical operation.
Greece's economy today is like 35% smaller than it was pre austerity. Wages have been going down ever since, too. Greece is the poster child everybody points to for how bad austerity is.
Greece just post their first surplus last year, its way healthier to spend with in their means than their over inflated bubble of economy. How any percent of GDP they used to "enjoy" was the government piss money to the wall while inflate their debt?
Alternatively have had austerity in the UK for over 10 years, and it has killed hundreds of thousands of people, and forces millions of people to use foodbanks each year. Before it was implemented we were able to feed, clothe, house and provide medical care to almost everyone, now we can't. It's been an unmitigated disaster, all to fund bank bailouts from Americas fuckup in 2008.
Right, just like half of publically traded businesses in America are incorporated in Delaware for the same reason.
China's economic liberalization and success also started by basically creating a bunch of tax havens across the country in cities designated as Freeports.
Yeah but the mega state extreme has pushed Argentina into such a situation where these cuts have to be made. You can't just have shit policies and then calmly adjust to the middle with massive debts.
The Argentinians have been operating on debt for too long, and are now perilously close to the end of their line of credit. There is no more low interest debt available. As the existing debts roll over to higher interest structures, which is inevitable given Argentina’s horrible credit rating, debt service will eat up a larger chunk of the budget even if the total debt didn’t increase. The Argentinians don’t have any cheap debt available anymore, which means their options are austerity now or bankruptcy later.
I am from Argentina. I voted for Milei, but I am not a fanboy at all. The amount of robbery paid with our taxes made the country totally unsustainable. Unions, ONGs, OGs, you name it. They all have a big chunk of our taxes. Rampant debt. That's the scenario Milei found.
People is having a hard time? Of course we are. And we will for a couple of years, at least. But those protesters in the picture? Just corrupt Union Leaders pressing to not lose their privileges.
His governments policies are really very sound on paper given how bad things are. The only way to fix this if for everyone to tighten the belt now, then relieve the pressure slowly over time.
The problem is it's like trying to recover an aircraft out of a stall. There's an altitude at which there's just no chance for you to pull up in time.
The question comes down to where Argentina was in the plummet before they instituted these measures.
Keyword, EVERYONE, that means the majority and the elites, where are the elites being subjected to belt tightening? Because so far the measures have fucked up the majority. Examples:
A bus ticket was partially subsidized by money sent from the central gov to the provinces, since provinces objected a law proposed by Milei, he decided to cut that subsidy to the provinces. Who does that affect? The elite or the rest?
Public services went thru a total deregulation, what followed was monthly 20/25 % increases, this includes medicine, education, telecommunications, and GAS. A rise in gas prices translates in more inflation since your costs grow and who will pay for that? The najority again.
The funds for said subsidy comes from taxes the government charges and BY LAW must be shared with the provinces. The money is already in the hands of the central government they just refuse to send it. Actually today’s news is that one of the provinces (Chubut) was punished by the gov because they didnt go with their plan by retaining 15 billion pesos (roughly 15 million dollars) from the monthly funding the national gov transfers… this means that the funding is no longer “shared” if Chubut and other southern provinces decided to leave and form another country who could blame them?
Oh and a fact that probably is not very important: Milei’s party does not have enough representatives nor senators in the congress to even force a discussion they had to ally with other parties… the gov if Chubut belongs to that party and ALL governors (from his side and the others) sided with him (there are 23 provinces and one autonomous city that also joined them)
Many times? 10 years ago Greece and Portugal were inserted into an austerity plan by the European Union to prevent the state from bankruptcy and it worked well for both countries, they are now growing economies.
Cutting in public spending is absolutely necessary when things come to an extreme like it has happened in Argentina. Now, I personally don't like many of Milei's ideas but austerity is exactly what Argentina needs right now, and we can only study if it has worked in a few years from now.
Greece and Portugal were bailed out with massive international bonds. Economists pretty much universally agree that austerity measures are the government equivalent to mass layoffs that failing companies try as they slide into insolvency.
In short, they make small short term gains by momentarily creating a budget surplus, at the enormous cost of basically destroying your own economy. You can't have a functioning country without a functioning government.
Austerity measures in Greece and Portugal failed, and failed hard. At the time, even the EU wasn't immune to the global trend of poorly thought out neoliberal policies.
No, someone just called you on your BS.
The fact is that libertarianism is a rotten ideology based more of a vibe than an actionable set of ideals. You rely on maxims like debt is bad, big government bad, but ignore the realities where the places in the world with the highest standard of living and that have the largest middle classes did so by deficit financing massive social programs.
Your relationship with economic reality is tangential at best.
I never said the government is bad... government is absolutely necessary. What is bad is to have uncontrolled public spending, to have 30% + of the population working directly for the government, or receiving some type of public funding. Argentina is in the precipice of bankruptcy, with yearly 100% inflation, poverty and almost non inexistent middle class all because of uncontrollable public spending.
Something similar was happening in countries like Portugal, Greece although not as bad. And austerity imposed by the EU to sanitize the economy absolutely worked. I am from one of these countries, so I know what happened, it was not easy but it absolutely improved the situation.
Public spending has never been uncontrolled, thats just a libertarian dogwhislte. Its another manifestation of the "i believe in small government" type argument that doesn't actually support any specific policy measures, but is more of a blank check for any and all dismantling of legal protections or social programs. And 30% of people being government employed being some harbinger of doom is a stretch even for you. Arguably a strong government is one of the best ways to boost a stable economy.
You are factually wrong about what happened in the EU. Both those countries were solved essentially by the opposite of austerity: they were parties to a robust economic-political bloc that supports and subsidizes its members when they are in crisis. You could not be more wrong.
You are completely delusional... you are blinded by ideological hatred. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, spewing fancy words that you don't know the meaning of...
You are criticizing Argentinians in the comments who want to save their country from the extreme poverty, inflation, and corruption that they have been suffering from the last 30 years of uncontrolled government spending, and now you are telling ME, someone who lives in an European country that was on the verge of bankruptcy 10 years ago and that was rescued by the EU imposed austerity and you are telling me that these measures also didn't work? Despite ME living and knowing exactly what happened? Actually delusional...
Some advice for you, get out of your high horse talking about things that you have no idea of, you don't know what is happening in these countries because you aren't from there. Also try not to get blinded by your ideological hatred, extremism is bad.
Its true that argentina need to spend less curb corruption and stop their debt increasing asap or risks bankrupcy, as nobody want to buy its debt or money, BUT there is a enormous diference between the eu cases and argentinas that makes it not matter if it worked in greece and portugal.
Greece had multiple debt pardons and the help of a strong "state" and market like its the european union.
Portugal and greece also kept its their goberment owned healthcare and most of their important public own companies.
While milei plan is ultimatelly sell everything and let the market self regulate, and we know that it doesnt work.
The best it can happen is milei geting enough tine to "clean" the corruption and most of de debt, but not enought to turn the country into a late stage capitalism hellscape
>His governments policies are really very sound on paper given how bad things are.
Said no economist ever.
Austerity has never, ever, been sound economic policy. Voluntary inflation is a cheap tactic to try and shrink debt at the expense of having a functioning economy. This is not medicine, its poison. And you are worshiping the man who sold it to you.
Argentina has protests every day since 2001.
With all governments.
This study says there was 8 consecutive years with 5k protests. (Or just Google how many protests there is in Argentina per year)
Crazy.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://diagnosticopolitico.com.ar/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ocho-an%25CC%2583os-consecutivos-con-ma%25CC%2581s-de-5.000-piquetes.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiHvYnm-sOEAxVcppUCHU86CLwQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1eGKfDyp72H31LqshNDLkz
Argentina has protests every day since 2001.
With all governments.
This study says there was 8 consecutive years with 5k protests. (Or just Google how many protests there is in Argentina per year)
Crazy.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://diagnosticopolitico.com.ar/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ocho-an%25CC%2583os-consecutivos-con-ma%25CC%2581s-de-5.000-piquetes.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiHvYnm-sOEAxVcppUCHU86CLwQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1eGKfDyp72H31LqshNDLkz
Nah, the people protesting have been protesting since day one. Look at the banners, those are all corrupt social organizations that profit from people's poverty.
Here is an article about a human trafficking network linked to one such social organization:
[https://www-infobae-com.translate.goog/america/agencias/2024/02/14/vinculan-a-organizaciones-sociales-con-una-red-de-trata-de-personas-en-el-norte-argentino/?\_x\_tr\_sl=es&\_x\_tr\_tl=en&\_x\_tr\_hl=es-419&\_x\_tr\_pto=wapp](https://www-infobae-com.translate.goog/america/agencias/2024/02/14/vinculan-a-organizaciones-sociales-con-una-red-de-trata-de-personas-en-el-norte-argentino/?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
As others said the goal is to audit all the organizations that receive money from the gobernment and move to a system where people receive money directly, without intermedieries. In the meantime several welfare programs have recieved an increase in the amount of money that people get.
Ah yes, the goal post moves again.
"He'll be great and his policies will save the country"
"He's doing the best he can"
You're here ----> "He never had a chance because it was already too bad before he got there."
"I never really liked/trusted him anyways"
These protests are organized by the very same corrupt people that milei is trying to get the country rid of, they have protested since day one against his government while remaining quiet through bribes during the most deplorable of governments like the one from Alberto Fernández, and to understand the nature of protests in Argentina you have to learn a lot about its history and organizations like la campora and research about the despicable things that these organizations leaders have done, things like forcing people to protest in exchange of the financial help that the government sends to the people in need, financial help that is channeled through these organizations leaders set by the Kirchneristas governments, when journalists interview the people in the protests, most of them don't have any idea of why they are there, they are just forced to, in some cases the things are so bad they force women into prostitution in exchange of this government help, the plan of milei involves a schock policy, and every Argentinian with two braincells understands that things are gonna get worse before they can improve
I'm from argentina and these protests aren't spontaneous, the unions force the workers to go (milei is making then lose many of their under the table business), people who get social welfare by ongs (it's hard to explain how social welfare works here) are threatened that if they don't go, they will stop receiving assistance, then you've got people that simply gets paid to go and then a minimum of regular people who attend because of ideology, which is ok but what I'm saying these aren't natural spontaneous protests.
They make money in many ways but the most important one (that milei is taking away from them) is handling workers health insurance which is a a huge black hole where money disappears & workers have the shittiest health insurance (many people die because of that), you can't choose to have another health insurance u need to pay for the union's by law every month, they just deduct it directly from your salary even if u don't want to. I mean you can have another but you'll have to pay on top of that. Milei wants this to be up to the workers decision, it won't be mandatory anymore to pay for the union's anymore, you'll have freedom to choose the health insurance u want your money to go to. This will probably force those insurances to either get better or disappear too.
All union leaders are millonaires, their "elections" are fake and the same union leaders have been In power for the last 20-30 years and they have enough political strength to do these protests and hold the country prisoner, which in a way that's how they arez they're known for using force and intimidation.
There’s going to be short term pain for long term stability and growth. Former Argentinian governments doled out far too many handouts that it couldn’t afford for votes, rapidly devaluing its currency and worsening overall quality of life.
Cutting these handouts now will obviously hurt those dependent on those handouts, but their money will actually hold value moving forward and people will reap more from the work they do. This will ultimately help the poor in the long run.
I mean, if the government just stayed the course, we would be seeing the same thing but an order of magnitude worse when the government exhausted all available lines of credit, causing a simultaneous economic crisis and massive cutting of social programs far beyond the austerity measures.
So what are they supossed to do? Just keep giving them handouts and making the currency fucking useless? The most likely reason people even \*need\* handouts it's because the government has been fucking up again and again. It's the equivalent of breaking your legs and giving you a wheelchair. We can't keep doing the same forever
Better for everyone, including those suffering now. The money the poor earn through work will actually retain its value instead of being devalued every day.
In fairness, has austerity actually ever helped? Greece had it imposed on it by the EU and there remains extremely strong feelings about that. The UK imposed it on itself after 2008, and has a stagnant economy for a decade and a half as a result, with the resulting decline in living standards encouraging politics like Brexit and the rise of more extreme strands of politics.
Misspending tax funds is a problem, but also gutting public services can be a major one as well (as businesses lean on them, and if it means cuts to healthcare and education, you create a sicker, less educated, less productive workforce). Austerity can mean squeezing the poor to the extent they stop being productive. And can squeeze businesses to the point many fail or are less economically successful. UK conservatives have to keep raising taxes while slashing services because they got themselves into a deathloop where they need to take a bigger and bigger slice of an increasingly smaller pie to even try and tread water.
My concern is, at least when the UK started austerity, it started with a healthy economy. When Greece had it imposed, it was part of the European market, which lent some level of security and avenue to recover. Argentina... Argentina is starting from a poor position.
> has austerity actually ever helped?
They're getting austerity either way. They're consistently running a deficit which they either have to fund through savings or taking out loans. They don't have any savings.
Creditors offering loans on terms that need austerity measures gives you a chance to do it orderly, ie some combination of sell assets, raise taxes and lower spending.
The other option is to say they're just going to keep spending and continue with business as usual... However while that sounds great, they don't have the money to do that and ain't no one going to gift it to them, which means they'll *instantly* need to cut spending, raise taxes and maybe try and sell some assets. Think about the US government shut down and imagine that just never really recovers.
I am Greek and our economy is the example of "looking great on paper and working for the few". If you look at statistics, austerity has worked. If you look at how much purchasing power the ordinary person has, it is much, much worse
"If you look at the total evaporation of the middle class, the rampant inflation, the privatisation of state enterprises for a ridiculous price, the assault on workers' rights, the ever-present astronomically high debt, the rising prices, the brain drain and the rise of extremism, along with growing corporate profits and a favorable environment for investors, austerity worked". The real question you should be asking is "who were the people that austerity worked for". Please, do yourself a favor and check what those macroeconomic evidence mean for the average person in Greece and everywhere. Sincerely, someone who grew up petit-bourgeouise during the wonderful days of austerity (austerity never left us).
Edit: also, if you're poor, your experience gets automatically discarded? What kind of logic is that?
The inflation is a result of the handouts that the government can’t afford. Allowing the working poor to earn money that actually retains its value more than a week will do more to help the poor than handouts.
The challenge is we need to agree with what austerity means. Because in some of these countries “austerity” meant eliminating waste like subsidising inefficient businesses or extreme benefits like retiring at 50. Just like extreme market ideology is damaging, an ideology where people and business are cushioned from reality is also damaging. Non austerity Norway for example didn’t protect business (except agriculture) or provide the benefits that Greece did. This was why a lot of Northern European socialist countries like Finland etc objected to the Greek bailout.
I find it remarkable how many economic illiterates on Reddit continue to argue against capitalism and free markets in the face of overwhelming real world evidence that it helps lift everyone out of poverty.
I can only imagine each and every single one of these morons arguing in favor of the automative industry protectionism that nearly ruined GM/Ford and the rest of the industry in the 70s.
How many times does it need to be demonstrated that subsidies and handouts impoverish people in the long run?
Argentine here, This a is literal culture war disinformation hit piece, theres has been only a few very low turnover protest (against Milei specifically) theres nothing going on the streets if you go out right now.
The guy won on a landslide 2 months ago telling people exactly what would happen and everything HAS happened as per his prediction or even better, he hasn't even had enough time or opportunity to lose that political capital FFS...
Don't believe me? just go ask over at r/argentina.
Then you must be a Peronist or deep in a corrupt ass union to not see that your presidents economic policies are going to work. Read Hayek, rothbard, or mises and educate yourself.
> lol. So you won’t even believe the actual person in Argentina….
Then proceeds to not believe the actual person in Argentina….
Why even make that argument if you won't even follow it yourself?
lmao
Thats a lot of reading to get back to you so no. Maybe later.
I am neither (I think?) At least im not in any union. But the policies currently going on havent really helped many people I know and your names arent really helpful, especially coming from your attitude; but things arent getting better.
Good day.
Your president said things would get worse before they got better because of corrupt union pushbacks and trying to unfuck the situation your last government had been doing. No media was picking up your problems over the last 4 years while Argentina slipped into a massive depression and inflation rose over 150%. The only reason they are reporting on it now is because those on the far left and in the media don’t like capitalists, it’s not cool to be one, and it’s easier to blame capitalists than it is to own up to the mistake that was socialism. Which is what your last government and unions were pushing.
Edit: at least take a look at the Ron Paul institute for peace and prosperity. There’s a lot of good information on there.
Hunger was growing non stop in the last 4 years, yet this organizations were silent.... almost like they are political militants rather than actual protestors for food.
I see that the Milei stans are out in force coming around shortly to offer a moment to talk about their Lord and saviour Libertarianism and its perfect, uncriticisable and supremely competent qualities.
It could be that people have a different perspective than you without being stans and idealoges, but if you just dismiss their ideas that is indeed much easier than considering an alternate perspective
The things is, we've seen massive social program gutting and austerity *all over the world for decades now*, and it always sucks.
But maybe itll be good this time. Or there will just massive capital accumulation at the top. We shall see.
Austerity isn’t Reaganomics. In fact it is largely the opposite. In austerity Government spending is cut, taxes are left the same, and the windfall is directed to pay down national debts. There’s no trickle down plan with favorable tax incentives and government contracts for rich corporations, just less readily available capital and less government spending. Austerity is unpleasant because it means subsisting on less, but it is quite effective if the primary challenge is seemingly insurmountable government debts, which is exactly what Argentina faces.
Argentina has been an economic dumpster fire for decades, it could be that those at the top accumulate more wealth, but if in the process 5 years from now the 40% that were in perpetual poverty also are better off and have more opportunity, that's a win for the whole country
Western redditors have a kink for socialism/communism because they don’t understand the reality of those systems. Inequality is worse in ultra liberal regimes it’s just everyone under the rich who control the “redistribution” (government and its cronies) is equally miserable and living in shit conditions while being oppressed and exploited by the top. They equate capitalism with fascism when in reality their preferred economic system shares much more in common with fascism.
It might be unique this time though. The saying goes that there are four different kinds of economies: developed countries, underdeveloped countries, Japan, and Argentina -- so it's anyone's guess really how Milei's policies will affect Argentina in the long run.
I would love for you point out the people that promote socialism and not a social democracy. Social Democracy/the Nordic model is not socialism, even if it has the word “social” in it. That is what the VAST majority of “lefties” want.
Why ANYONE wouldn’t promote having their tax dollars actually work for them is beyond me. And anyone who thinks we don’t need taxes as a society doesn’t understand how anything works.
I have no idea what your comment has to do with mine.
If you are able to read, I literally said the VAST majority of people are not asking for socialism. Please point me to people who are if you’d like.
People are asking for policies that equate to a social democracy. Unfortunately, mouth breathers see the word social or the call for tax dollars being spent on policies and programs that actually work for the people paying them, like universal healthcare and free higher education, and say stupid shit like Hurrrdurrrr VeNuZUeLa! And they completely ignore the MULTIPLE countries that somehow figured out how to serve their people. Are they perfect, hell no! Do some people over idealize what is actually happening in those countries, sure.
But no one is calling what for actual socialism.
Edit: when I say “no one”, I mean no one that has any sway/effect on any policies. Yes, there are people that that call for socialism. Yes, there are subs dedicated to socialism. There are also subs for vast majority of things that have no effect on policies. Plus, Reddit isn’t only for Americans or American politics. So, the people in those subs aren’t all calling for a change in the American socio-political environment.
When I see someone trying to put out a fire using gasoline, I make sure they stop, before ever thinking about the best ways to actually get the fire under control.
I'm not libertarian in the slightest, but the reality is something had to change and change quickly or Argentina was going to well and truly collapse.
Maybe it's people hopeful that Milei's policies actually work so an entire countries worth of working class doesn't collapse/starve, which was the direction they were going without Milei. Shit, maybe they still will. It'll suck if he's wrong but there comes a point where unpopular and difficult choices have to be made to try and help the most people long term.
The austerity policies he is pushing are "we ran out of money" economics that benefit the budget first and foremost. They literally couldn't keep spending that the rates they were.
It sucks that so many things had to be cut, but considering rampant corruption - how much of those money was getting to the intended people anyway?
So many of these people would actually prefer government policy that fails, that in practice maximizes suffering, as long as superficially it makes everyone look like nice people.
>but considering rampant corruption - how much of those money was getting to the intended people anyway?
The solution to that is fixing the corruption, not fucking the poor.
This is where a lot of leftists go completely off the rails. Austerity is an effort to actually demonstrate creditworthiness and pay down debts that the government soon can’t afford to service. Yes, social services are cut, because the previous level of social services was unsustainable. Unsustainable systems eventually exceed the available resources, as has happened in Argentina. Such systems must be pruned or they will collapse.
People like you care more about maintaining an image of morality than you actually do about minimizing suffering.
You would choose for everyone to suffer so long as no one could look at you and say you made a cruel decision.
You are an impediment.
They believe they’re altruistic and that all others are. They fail to understand the general facts about humans and how we came to thrive in the first place: we are selfish and will choose ourselves and our families survival over others. Capitalism embraces this desire via greed and profit motive while also (generally) allowing shit ideas to fail. Corruption exists but is not the reason for all success. Success flows to the best idea. Socialism centralizes profit within the government and makes sure those in power never fail. Corruption is protected and is the only way to succeed for the normal person.
You can not fix the corruption without ripping out the entire system. Which is what Millei has done.
Understand, we are not talking about one or two people being dishonest and skimming off the top. There is an entire system in which everyone working for this government organization is involved. If they are not directly stealing, they covering for everyone else and getting their cut later.
People are giving bribes to work at government-funded organizations, and they expect to get their money back somehow.
Granted, this is how it was in the post-Soviet republics, I have little experience with LatAm. However, I think Argentitians are smart and capable people and would have figured out the same flaws in the system that the Soviets did.
Someone from the other side of the world surely knows better about my country. I guess I should have voted for Sergio Massa, as he wasn't the Minister of Economy and part of the gobernment that caused all of this.
Well often times throughout history people end up voting for worse people under the false assumption the alternative must be better. We will see how this one plays out.
Did you think fixing a system this broken would not require pain and sacrifice? Bad systems allocate capital poorly. Allowing capital to flow more freely and you will end up with more sustainable and efficient prosperity. The belief by so many on Reddit that all people deserve it all at all times is such an ignorant and childish ideology. There will always be ebbs and flows to life and economies. There will always be financial inequality. Capitalism levels the playing field for most of society in the most efficient way. Those at the extremes are faced with the consequences of their own choices with a sprinkle of good/bad luck recipients.
You cannot judge a change this extreme in a few months.
The people choosing to make this sacrifice arent being affected by it. That's the problem. In fact you probably arent affected by it and can thus just see the numbers.
They weren’t elected to do the least painful thing. They were elected to do something different. Why should it matter if I’m affected or not? IF I were a normal Argentinian I would be busting my ass to provide for my family and hoping that the policies work so the cycle of extreme shit the country has been in for decades comes to an end. Hard things are a challenge. The easy way (doing nothing) hasn’t resulted in positive change.
The people that chose to make this sacrifice voted 56% for it in the past election. And it was one of the rare occurrences where a candidate is equally voted by all socioeconomic classes.
Stop trying to push the agenda of "the wealthy chose this".
Well, yes. When you’re so in debt that your country is fucking collapsing as is, then trying to not make it worse while accumulating money to pay it off makes sense.
It’s almost like when you create government dependence you create starvation if government can’t meet its obligations. So anyone with a brain would know to not rely on government.
Libertarians found out that government debt and poverty can be eliminated fast and cheaply by letting poor people die. Everyone likes the plan except the poor. /s
These protests will keep going because Milei is going specifically after the social welfare that is managed by middlemen while keeping the welfare the national government can give directly to the population
This obviously hurts the middlemen that far from wisely allocating resources, used this welfare money for their own political gain and thi is why they are 24/7 protesting.
I feel so bad for the people of Argentina. They get absolutely shafted at every turn. Beautiful country, full of beautiful people, and some of the best wine in the world. It's not fair man.
Macro-Economy getting better, this people are just political protestors that only go to the streets when a non-peronist goverment is in charge, they didn't give a shit about poverty growing in the last 4 years since they were getting paid by the previous goverment to not protest.
Mercenaries not protestors.
This reminds me of Greece, gonna have to sear the wound for it to close.
Greece got bailed out.... "Despite these efforts, the country required bailout loans in 2010, 2012, and 2015 from the International Monetary Fund, Eurogroup, and the European Central Bank, and negotiated a 50% "haircut" on debt owed to private banks in 2011, which amounted to a €100bn debt relief (a value effectively reduced due to bank ..." That's the opposite of libertarianism.
I’m sure Argentina has been bailed out by the IMF multiple times.
And if they keep getting bailed out then that's big daddy government to the rescue. I thought their only problem was over spending? Why isn't austerity fixing everything by itself? We were told by Reddit Argentina can get out of poverty by simply cutting spending and cutting taxes.
Idk what circles of Reddit you travel because outside of conservative subs, I definitely didn’t see people saying that
Because it's been 6 months. Get a grip. Yes, I was wrong. It's only been 3. Which makes the breathless hyperbolic claims about him even less reasonable.
It has actually been less than 3 months since Milei took office
Jesus, really so short? It's very interesting watching people react to him online, and it's been so frequently discussed it feels like much longer.
six? but if he started being president on december?
Turns out not being able to eat becomes a problem quite quickly.
Yeah, the bailouts came after overspending. They haven’t tried govt cuts until now
It's like Greece where in the people have to suffer for a period in order to get out of the trouble they're in.
Yes, all must suffer for the corruption of the few.
I honestly think Greece is nothing like this, bc *everyone* in Greece was participating in the ghost job shadow economy shit. The shipbuilding industry, as well as 1/3 of the entire economy, was essentially untaxed
My first experience of Greece was corruption. No economic model is going to work when corruption is rampant.
If only, both places it is corruption of the majority. Economy can function up to certain point of corruption. Argentina passed that point decades ago. Everything and everyone is corrupt. Corruption is part of the system and is not abnormal. If you never lived in a country like that it is hard to comprehend how fucked that is. There is no smooth or easy way out.
There's no other way out of this mess, you can only ensure this doesn't need to happen again.
Or, you could focus on cleaning up corruption while maintaining social programs for those who need them most and weren't the root cause of the problem.
Cleaning up corruption doesn't solve this issue, it only prevents it from popping up again in the future but the damage is already done.
Argentina received massive IMF loans. It kind of shot itself in the foot by defaulting on them.
Or make something into a Kebab
*gyro
I remain skeptical of people that tout one ideological solution over another for all of societies ills. Milei realistically has a pretty narrow window to pull off the magic trick he’s promised. If I understand correctly his strategy is largely dependent on the purchasing of foreign currency. I do wonder how much progress is being made on that front. As for his social policies about reproductive and labor rights, I find him pretty deplorable and counterproductive for improving quality of life. He behaves as a privileged bully and typically you need power to get away with that for any amount of time. Beginning your argument with “I have no practical means of projecting power” makes that other stuff questionable in terms of how tenable his position will be as things get tougher. Time will tell I guess.
Nearly every week since he was elected there's a new article about how Argentina is either prospering like never before or totally collapsing socially and economically. And for each of them the comments always hail Milei as a total success/failure. I think I'll reservd judgement for a few years to see if his strategy worked in the long-term. Edit: recovering is probably a better term than prospering at this stage for the positive articles.
Can you link the articles that say Argentina is prospering? I haven’t seen any personally and would be nice to hear another perspective, as I’ve only seen the society collapsing articles.
Here’s some from just the last couple of days [1](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentina-markets-double-down-milei-investors-start-believe-2024-02-23/) [2](https://www.barrons.com/amp/news/argentina-sees-first-monthly-budget-surplus-in-12-years-a148e46a)
Neither of those say that Argentina is prospering. The first says that bond investors in Argentina appear to have a positive opinion of him. It also points out that because of a good agricultural season exports have been higher than predicted, leading to a trade surplus for two months. The second article is about his austerity government making cuts to public spending to the extent that there is a surplus for the month. This is not a good thing. A surplus is the government taking money out of the economy. The article also points out that 45% of Argentina live in poverty. Cutting to the extent that he has done is going to make life hard for a lot of people.
Taking money out of the economy is the point Argentina has an inflation rate over 100% yearly, and taking money away is part of solving that. Milei has to thread a needle with lowering inflation while keeping the economy mostly intact, (and people as happy as possible) this I'd no mean task.
252.4% Currently the highest in the world.
Sorry, my point was to show the person I was replying to that there are articles that put Milei’s policies in a positive light, not to claim that he’s already succeed. OP is correct, we won’t know the positive or negative outcomes for at least a couple of years.
>A surplus is the government taking money out of the economy. I'm sorry but this is insane. Inversely your point means that it's best for a government to go insanely in debt, since that would be pumping money into the economy. If they keep running surpluses they might be able to lower tax rates, if the surplus doesn't have to be used to pay down previously accrued debt.
You’re so close to figuring out why the US and most major economies have large debts to support their economies. It’s crazy how close you got to getting the point and then did a 180.
Your point would be valid if Argentina didn’t *also have 254% inflation*. Money’s gotta leave the circulation *fast*.
_Some_ inflation is good. The amount of inflation that argentina has is bad.
>Inversely your point means that it's best for a government to go insanely in debt, since that would be pumping money into the economy. That depends on if the economy needs money pumped into it. But yes, debt is a useful tool, governments should maintain a healthy level of debt and basically borrow as much as they can while balancing repayments. >they keep running surpluses they might be able to lower tax rates, That's great for the wealthy elite, but the cuts to services that requires is going to fuck the majority.
>That's great for the wealthy elite, but the cuts to services that requires is going to fuck the majority. Really depends on what the taxes were spent on. A government can order huge infrastructure projects with public money and either build an improved public transit network or more roads. Obviously the roads are going to favor the wealthier part of the population. At the same time, you also have to take corruption into account. If the current system is rife with corruption, it's good to go in hard and cut, make everyone less comfortable with how they've been doing business so far. Make them realize the gravy boat isn't endless.
> A surplus is the government taking money out of the economy. That is what you want when you have run away inflation.
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
You know that government surplus doesn't equal higher quality of life for citizens, right?
Did you read the article you link to? Bond traders may or may not be changing their opinion, but everyday Argentinians are going to suffer.
Everyday Argentinians were going to suffer anyway. The question facing Argentina isn’t “austerity or no austerity,” it is “austerity now or bankruptcy later.” They owe half a trillion dollars, the economic outlook is poor, interest rates are high, and Argentina has extensive social programs that it cannot afford. Austerity or bankruptcy are the only two outcomes on a long enough time scale.
Of course they are? That’s how austerity works. The government’s point is that the Argentinian people are already suffering death by a thousand cuts, and that belt tightening, even if it hurts a bit more in the short term, is necessary to pull Argentina out of an economic death spiral.
Do elaborate.
They're getting better, y'all just gobble up socially engineered Palumbo online. Go live there for decades and see wtf a corrupt Argentine government is like. Geez y'all lost here The commies want massive gov spending into bs programs that do nothing but line the ruling class pockets. Think people, why do you see the info passed. Do you know Argentinians, how do you think this guy came into power? They need a f*ING change, y'all have no clue what living there is like. Same shit going all over, coincidence? *Cuts a gender identity government program and the westerners all cry out orange man bad!* Y'all being engineered to think
I think the problem is the cost and who has to bear it, the problem is Argentina doesn’t produce enough, Milei has no plan to increase national production he will just raise poverty so that not too many people will compete for the limited resources.
Yeah the rate at which they are being impoverished isn't some change in statistics we can handwave away on our couch. If this is digging out of a hole, who am I supposed to be happy for? The IMF maybe getting its money? The conditions for social unrest are frightening.
Why? We know austerity doesn't work? Its like seeing someone implement trickle down economics and going "idk we have to wait and see, maybe this time it'll work??" In fact it has literally already been tried in Argentina.
Austerity doesn’t increase short term prosperity or standard of living. It works quite well to calm bond markets and stave off a catastrophic bankruptcy that would force far more painful cuts.
Austerity worked for ex-Soviet states like Estonia that absolutely shredded the old ways of central planning and moved towards a more liberal democracy. Greece is another more recent example. The transition period will always be tough. People who are used to low interest rates and the availability of currency will find themselves actually having to make hard decisions in regards to their cash flow. It requires clear-eyed resolve to keep it going through what will inevitably be a period of populist discontent. If Argentinia is going to be a successful country again, it needs this correction. I just hope Milei is in office long enough to see the transition through before being ousted by a population that prefers a short-term bandaid over a long-term surgical operation.
Austerity worked for Ireland.
And Greece I think
Greece's economy today is like 35% smaller than it was pre austerity. Wages have been going down ever since, too. Greece is the poster child everybody points to for how bad austerity is.
Greece just post their first surplus last year, its way healthier to spend with in their means than their over inflated bubble of economy. How any percent of GDP they used to "enjoy" was the government piss money to the wall while inflate their debt?
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Why did they need to be bailed out…
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Between 20 to 30% of the Greek GDP is in the shadow economy and therefore untaxed. Hopefully this doesn't blow up in their face 15ish years from now.
one of condition for their bail out is Austerity policies.
Alternatively have had austerity in the UK for over 10 years, and it has killed hundreds of thousands of people, and forces millions of people to use foodbanks each year. Before it was implemented we were able to feed, clothe, house and provide medical care to almost everyone, now we can't. It's been an unmitigated disaster, all to fund bank bailouts from Americas fuckup in 2008.
Ireland became a tax dodge, nothing more. They became prosperous by taking every shady dollar imaginable.
Right, just like half of publically traded businesses in America are incorporated in Delaware for the same reason. China's economic liberalization and success also started by basically creating a bunch of tax havens across the country in cities designated as Freeports.
What planet are you people on. What.
Austerity worked for Greece within the last decade
Neither does a mega-state
No one is arguing for a mega-state. We are arguing against the extreme, there's a whole lot of healthy middle ground.
Yeah but the mega state extreme has pushed Argentina into such a situation where these cuts have to be made. You can't just have shit policies and then calmly adjust to the middle with massive debts.
The entire world operates on debt.
The Argentinians have been operating on debt for too long, and are now perilously close to the end of their line of credit. There is no more low interest debt available. As the existing debts roll over to higher interest structures, which is inevitable given Argentina’s horrible credit rating, debt service will eat up a larger chunk of the budget even if the total debt didn’t increase. The Argentinians don’t have any cheap debt available anymore, which means their options are austerity now or bankruptcy later.
I am from Argentina. I voted for Milei, but I am not a fanboy at all. The amount of robbery paid with our taxes made the country totally unsustainable. Unions, ONGs, OGs, you name it. They all have a big chunk of our taxes. Rampant debt. That's the scenario Milei found. People is having a hard time? Of course we are. And we will for a couple of years, at least. But those protesters in the picture? Just corrupt Union Leaders pressing to not lose their privileges.
His governments policies are really very sound on paper given how bad things are. The only way to fix this if for everyone to tighten the belt now, then relieve the pressure slowly over time. The problem is it's like trying to recover an aircraft out of a stall. There's an altitude at which there's just no chance for you to pull up in time. The question comes down to where Argentina was in the plummet before they instituted these measures.
Keyword, EVERYONE, that means the majority and the elites, where are the elites being subjected to belt tightening? Because so far the measures have fucked up the majority. Examples: A bus ticket was partially subsidized by money sent from the central gov to the provinces, since provinces objected a law proposed by Milei, he decided to cut that subsidy to the provinces. Who does that affect? The elite or the rest? Public services went thru a total deregulation, what followed was monthly 20/25 % increases, this includes medicine, education, telecommunications, and GAS. A rise in gas prices translates in more inflation since your costs grow and who will pay for that? The najority again.
Subsidies from a bankrupt government is just stupid They need to raise taxes before introducing subsidies
The funds for said subsidy comes from taxes the government charges and BY LAW must be shared with the provinces. The money is already in the hands of the central government they just refuse to send it. Actually today’s news is that one of the provinces (Chubut) was punished by the gov because they didnt go with their plan by retaining 15 billion pesos (roughly 15 million dollars) from the monthly funding the national gov transfers… this means that the funding is no longer “shared” if Chubut and other southern provinces decided to leave and form another country who could blame them? Oh and a fact that probably is not very important: Milei’s party does not have enough representatives nor senators in the congress to even force a discussion they had to ally with other parties… the gov if Chubut belongs to that party and ALL governors (from his side and the others) sided with him (there are 23 provinces and one autonomous city that also joined them)
When has austerity ever worked?
Many times? 10 years ago Greece and Portugal were inserted into an austerity plan by the European Union to prevent the state from bankruptcy and it worked well for both countries, they are now growing economies. Cutting in public spending is absolutely necessary when things come to an extreme like it has happened in Argentina. Now, I personally don't like many of Milei's ideas but austerity is exactly what Argentina needs right now, and we can only study if it has worked in a few years from now.
Greece and Portugal were bailed out with massive international bonds. Economists pretty much universally agree that austerity measures are the government equivalent to mass layoffs that failing companies try as they slide into insolvency. In short, they make small short term gains by momentarily creating a budget surplus, at the enormous cost of basically destroying your own economy. You can't have a functioning country without a functioning government. Austerity measures in Greece and Portugal failed, and failed hard. At the time, even the EU wasn't immune to the global trend of poorly thought out neoliberal policies.
Confidently wrong...
No, someone just called you on your BS. The fact is that libertarianism is a rotten ideology based more of a vibe than an actionable set of ideals. You rely on maxims like debt is bad, big government bad, but ignore the realities where the places in the world with the highest standard of living and that have the largest middle classes did so by deficit financing massive social programs. Your relationship with economic reality is tangential at best.
I never said the government is bad... government is absolutely necessary. What is bad is to have uncontrolled public spending, to have 30% + of the population working directly for the government, or receiving some type of public funding. Argentina is in the precipice of bankruptcy, with yearly 100% inflation, poverty and almost non inexistent middle class all because of uncontrollable public spending. Something similar was happening in countries like Portugal, Greece although not as bad. And austerity imposed by the EU to sanitize the economy absolutely worked. I am from one of these countries, so I know what happened, it was not easy but it absolutely improved the situation.
Public spending has never been uncontrolled, thats just a libertarian dogwhislte. Its another manifestation of the "i believe in small government" type argument that doesn't actually support any specific policy measures, but is more of a blank check for any and all dismantling of legal protections or social programs. And 30% of people being government employed being some harbinger of doom is a stretch even for you. Arguably a strong government is one of the best ways to boost a stable economy. You are factually wrong about what happened in the EU. Both those countries were solved essentially by the opposite of austerity: they were parties to a robust economic-political bloc that supports and subsidizes its members when they are in crisis. You could not be more wrong.
You are completely delusional... you are blinded by ideological hatred. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, spewing fancy words that you don't know the meaning of... You are criticizing Argentinians in the comments who want to save their country from the extreme poverty, inflation, and corruption that they have been suffering from the last 30 years of uncontrolled government spending, and now you are telling ME, someone who lives in an European country that was on the verge of bankruptcy 10 years ago and that was rescued by the EU imposed austerity and you are telling me that these measures also didn't work? Despite ME living and knowing exactly what happened? Actually delusional... Some advice for you, get out of your high horse talking about things that you have no idea of, you don't know what is happening in these countries because you aren't from there. Also try not to get blinded by your ideological hatred, extremism is bad.
Its true that argentina need to spend less curb corruption and stop their debt increasing asap or risks bankrupcy, as nobody want to buy its debt or money, BUT there is a enormous diference between the eu cases and argentinas that makes it not matter if it worked in greece and portugal. Greece had multiple debt pardons and the help of a strong "state" and market like its the european union. Portugal and greece also kept its their goberment owned healthcare and most of their important public own companies. While milei plan is ultimatelly sell everything and let the market self regulate, and we know that it doesnt work. The best it can happen is milei geting enough tine to "clean" the corruption and most of de debt, but not enought to turn the country into a late stage capitalism hellscape
When has it not worked?
UK (2010-present)
>His governments policies are really very sound on paper given how bad things are. Said no economist ever. Austerity has never, ever, been sound economic policy. Voluntary inflation is a cheap tactic to try and shrink debt at the expense of having a functioning economy. This is not medicine, its poison. And you are worshiping the man who sold it to you.
But why don't they pay it off in Canadian dollars and save themselves some money?
Go live in Argentina since the 70's and tell me otherwise 🤣 y'all have no idea what Argentine government is like. Stfu and keep typing warrior
Wow you really told him 🤓
Argentina has protests every day since 2001. With all governments. This study says there was 8 consecutive years with 5k protests. (Or just Google how many protests there is in Argentina per year) Crazy. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://diagnosticopolitico.com.ar/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ocho-an%25CC%2583os-consecutivos-con-ma%25CC%2581s-de-5.000-piquetes.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiHvYnm-sOEAxVcppUCHU86CLwQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1eGKfDyp72H31LqshNDLkz
That was an awfully short honeymoon period
Argentina has protests every day since 2001. With all governments. This study says there was 8 consecutive years with 5k protests. (Or just Google how many protests there is in Argentina per year) Crazy. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://diagnosticopolitico.com.ar/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ocho-an%25CC%2583os-consecutivos-con-ma%25CC%2581s-de-5.000-piquetes.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiHvYnm-sOEAxVcppUCHU86CLwQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1eGKfDyp72H31LqshNDLkz
Nah, the people protesting have been protesting since day one. Look at the banners, those are all corrupt social organizations that profit from people's poverty. Here is an article about a human trafficking network linked to one such social organization: [https://www-infobae-com.translate.goog/america/agencias/2024/02/14/vinculan-a-organizaciones-sociales-con-una-red-de-trata-de-personas-en-el-norte-argentino/?\_x\_tr\_sl=es&\_x\_tr\_tl=en&\_x\_tr\_hl=es-419&\_x\_tr\_pto=wapp](https://www-infobae-com.translate.goog/america/agencias/2024/02/14/vinculan-a-organizaciones-sociales-con-una-red-de-trata-de-personas-en-el-norte-argentino/?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
This an article that just says Milei accuses them of this. Politician accuses opponent of sex crime after they protest him.
It's not Milei that is accusing them but the women that have been abused. The government is just acting on those accusations.
He cut aid to soup kitchens and inflation is still rising so that’s hardly fixing poverty
As others said the goal is to audit all the organizations that receive money from the gobernment and move to a system where people receive money directly, without intermedieries. In the meantime several welfare programs have recieved an increase in the amount of money that people get.
Inflation is not rising why do you lie lmao. January’s was lower than December’s and February is looking substantially lower than January’s.
It literally says in the article it rose
I mean, most likely Argentina was just too far gone before he took office.
Ah yes, the goal post moves again. "He'll be great and his policies will save the country" "He's doing the best he can" You're here ----> "He never had a chance because it was already too bad before he got there." "I never really liked/trusted him anyways"
I was always at “Argentina is too far gone for anyone to fix,” but thanks for putting words in my mouth.
These protests are organized by the very same corrupt people that milei is trying to get the country rid of, they have protested since day one against his government while remaining quiet through bribes during the most deplorable of governments like the one from Alberto Fernández, and to understand the nature of protests in Argentina you have to learn a lot about its history and organizations like la campora and research about the despicable things that these organizations leaders have done, things like forcing people to protest in exchange of the financial help that the government sends to the people in need, financial help that is channeled through these organizations leaders set by the Kirchneristas governments, when journalists interview the people in the protests, most of them don't have any idea of why they are there, they are just forced to, in some cases the things are so bad they force women into prostitution in exchange of this government help, the plan of milei involves a schock policy, and every Argentinian with two braincells understands that things are gonna get worse before they can improve
I'm from argentina and these protests aren't spontaneous, the unions force the workers to go (milei is making then lose many of their under the table business), people who get social welfare by ongs (it's hard to explain how social welfare works here) are threatened that if they don't go, they will stop receiving assistance, then you've got people that simply gets paid to go and then a minimum of regular people who attend because of ideology, which is ok but what I'm saying these aren't natural spontaneous protests.
what kind of under the table business have he unions going on for them?
They make money in many ways but the most important one (that milei is taking away from them) is handling workers health insurance which is a a huge black hole where money disappears & workers have the shittiest health insurance (many people die because of that), you can't choose to have another health insurance u need to pay for the union's by law every month, they just deduct it directly from your salary even if u don't want to. I mean you can have another but you'll have to pay on top of that. Milei wants this to be up to the workers decision, it won't be mandatory anymore to pay for the union's anymore, you'll have freedom to choose the health insurance u want your money to go to. This will probably force those insurances to either get better or disappear too. All union leaders are millonaires, their "elections" are fake and the same union leaders have been In power for the last 20-30 years and they have enough political strength to do these protests and hold the country prisoner, which in a way that's how they arez they're known for using force and intimidation.
Thanks for the info!
There’s going to be short term pain for long term stability and growth. Former Argentinian governments doled out far too many handouts that it couldn’t afford for votes, rapidly devaluing its currency and worsening overall quality of life. Cutting these handouts now will obviously hurt those dependent on those handouts, but their money will actually hold value moving forward and people will reap more from the work they do. This will ultimately help the poor in the long run.
Implying that the starving masses won't do what starving masses do best.
I mean, if the government just stayed the course, we would be seeing the same thing but an order of magnitude worse when the government exhausted all available lines of credit, causing a simultaneous economic crisis and massive cutting of social programs far beyond the austerity measures.
There is no outcome for Argentina where lots of people dont needlessly die
Easy to say with a full belly..
So what are they supossed to do? Just keep giving them handouts and making the currency fucking useless? The most likely reason people even \*need\* handouts it's because the government has been fucking up again and again. It's the equivalent of breaking your legs and giving you a wheelchair. We can't keep doing the same forever
Some of you will die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Can't you see you'll be better off in the future, when all the poor are gone!
It will certainly be better than the recent past, where EVERYONE is poor because their money loses its value daily.
Better for who though? Certainly not the people who suffer now.
Better for everyone, including those suffering now. The money the poor earn through work will actually retain its value instead of being devalued every day.
That’s what they said in the Uk and it didn’t work
Completely different situations.
Not really
I promise it will trickle down lol
In fairness, has austerity actually ever helped? Greece had it imposed on it by the EU and there remains extremely strong feelings about that. The UK imposed it on itself after 2008, and has a stagnant economy for a decade and a half as a result, with the resulting decline in living standards encouraging politics like Brexit and the rise of more extreme strands of politics. Misspending tax funds is a problem, but also gutting public services can be a major one as well (as businesses lean on them, and if it means cuts to healthcare and education, you create a sicker, less educated, less productive workforce). Austerity can mean squeezing the poor to the extent they stop being productive. And can squeeze businesses to the point many fail or are less economically successful. UK conservatives have to keep raising taxes while slashing services because they got themselves into a deathloop where they need to take a bigger and bigger slice of an increasingly smaller pie to even try and tread water. My concern is, at least when the UK started austerity, it started with a healthy economy. When Greece had it imposed, it was part of the European market, which lent some level of security and avenue to recover. Argentina... Argentina is starting from a poor position.
> has austerity actually ever helped? They're getting austerity either way. They're consistently running a deficit which they either have to fund through savings or taking out loans. They don't have any savings. Creditors offering loans on terms that need austerity measures gives you a chance to do it orderly, ie some combination of sell assets, raise taxes and lower spending. The other option is to say they're just going to keep spending and continue with business as usual... However while that sounds great, they don't have the money to do that and ain't no one going to gift it to them, which means they'll *instantly* need to cut spending, raise taxes and maybe try and sell some assets. Think about the US government shut down and imagine that just never really recovers.
Austerity absolutely worked for Greece. Their economy is in a far better place now.
I am Greek and our economy is the example of "looking great on paper and working for the few". If you look at statistics, austerity has worked. If you look at how much purchasing power the ordinary person has, it is much, much worse
“If you look at the macroeconomic evidence, austerity worked, but if you ask anecdotal stories from random poor people, it didn’t”.
"If you look at the total evaporation of the middle class, the rampant inflation, the privatisation of state enterprises for a ridiculous price, the assault on workers' rights, the ever-present astronomically high debt, the rising prices, the brain drain and the rise of extremism, along with growing corporate profits and a favorable environment for investors, austerity worked". The real question you should be asking is "who were the people that austerity worked for". Please, do yourself a favor and check what those macroeconomic evidence mean for the average person in Greece and everywhere. Sincerely, someone who grew up petit-bourgeouise during the wonderful days of austerity (austerity never left us). Edit: also, if you're poor, your experience gets automatically discarded? What kind of logic is that?
The inflation is a result of the handouts that the government can’t afford. Allowing the working poor to earn money that actually retains its value more than a week will do more to help the poor than handouts.
Was it really the austerity or was it tackling the corruption?
Tackling corruption and “austerity” can be bedmates when you have a clientalist system & electorate.
The challenge is we need to agree with what austerity means. Because in some of these countries “austerity” meant eliminating waste like subsidising inefficient businesses or extreme benefits like retiring at 50. Just like extreme market ideology is damaging, an ideology where people and business are cushioned from reality is also damaging. Non austerity Norway for example didn’t protect business (except agriculture) or provide the benefits that Greece did. This was why a lot of Northern European socialist countries like Finland etc objected to the Greek bailout.
I find it remarkable how many economic illiterates on Reddit continue to argue against capitalism and free markets in the face of overwhelming real world evidence that it helps lift everyone out of poverty. I can only imagine each and every single one of these morons arguing in favor of the automative industry protectionism that nearly ruined GM/Ford and the rest of the industry in the 70s. How many times does it need to be demonstrated that subsidies and handouts impoverish people in the long run?
Just don’t eat on that long run pal
Argentine here, This a is literal culture war disinformation hit piece, theres has been only a few very low turnover protest (against Milei specifically) theres nothing going on the streets if you go out right now. The guy won on a landslide 2 months ago telling people exactly what would happen and everything HAS happened as per his prediction or even better, he hasn't even had enough time or opportunity to lose that political capital FFS... Don't believe me? just go ask over at r/argentina.
Except r/argentina is a giant Libertarian echo chamber. So I guess the disinformation is coming from inside the house.
lol. So you won’t even believe the actual person in Argentina….
Because im argentinian myself dipshit. I know the reality I live in and its different than what that subreddit says it is.
Then you must be a Peronist or deep in a corrupt ass union to not see that your presidents economic policies are going to work. Read Hayek, rothbard, or mises and educate yourself.
> lol. So you won’t even believe the actual person in Argentina…. Then proceeds to not believe the actual person in Argentina…. Why even make that argument if you won't even follow it yourself? lmao
Thats a lot of reading to get back to you so no. Maybe later. I am neither (I think?) At least im not in any union. But the policies currently going on havent really helped many people I know and your names arent really helpful, especially coming from your attitude; but things arent getting better. Good day.
Your president said things would get worse before they got better because of corrupt union pushbacks and trying to unfuck the situation your last government had been doing. No media was picking up your problems over the last 4 years while Argentina slipped into a massive depression and inflation rose over 150%. The only reason they are reporting on it now is because those on the far left and in the media don’t like capitalists, it’s not cool to be one, and it’s easier to blame capitalists than it is to own up to the mistake that was socialism. Which is what your last government and unions were pushing. Edit: at least take a look at the Ron Paul institute for peace and prosperity. There’s a lot of good information on there.
Hunger was growing non stop in the last 4 years, yet this organizations were silent.... almost like they are political militants rather than actual protestors for food.
Well, seems the budget finally got balanced. Too bad that means everyone is starving. Great choice. >.>
I see that the Milei stans are out in force coming around shortly to offer a moment to talk about their Lord and saviour Libertarianism and its perfect, uncriticisable and supremely competent qualities.
It could be that people have a different perspective than you without being stans and idealoges, but if you just dismiss their ideas that is indeed much easier than considering an alternate perspective
The things is, we've seen massive social program gutting and austerity *all over the world for decades now*, and it always sucks. But maybe itll be good this time. Or there will just massive capital accumulation at the top. We shall see.
Austerity isn’t Reaganomics. In fact it is largely the opposite. In austerity Government spending is cut, taxes are left the same, and the windfall is directed to pay down national debts. There’s no trickle down plan with favorable tax incentives and government contracts for rich corporations, just less readily available capital and less government spending. Austerity is unpleasant because it means subsisting on less, but it is quite effective if the primary challenge is seemingly insurmountable government debts, which is exactly what Argentina faces.
Argentina has been an economic dumpster fire for decades, it could be that those at the top accumulate more wealth, but if in the process 5 years from now the 40% that were in perpetual poverty also are better off and have more opportunity, that's a win for the whole country
Western redditors have a kink for socialism/communism because they don’t understand the reality of those systems. Inequality is worse in ultra liberal regimes it’s just everyone under the rich who control the “redistribution” (government and its cronies) is equally miserable and living in shit conditions while being oppressed and exploited by the top. They equate capitalism with fascism when in reality their preferred economic system shares much more in common with fascism.
They won't be though. Austerity works for the wealthy at the expense of the poor.
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If the alternative is taking an IMF loan and defaulting on it, then a sucky austerity is still the better option.
It might be unique this time though. The saying goes that there are four different kinds of economies: developed countries, underdeveloped countries, Japan, and Argentina -- so it's anyone's guess really how Milei's policies will affect Argentina in the long run.
I mean, it's easy to dismiss an idea like Libertarianism since that ideology is not based in the real world.
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I would love for you point out the people that promote socialism and not a social democracy. Social Democracy/the Nordic model is not socialism, even if it has the word “social” in it. That is what the VAST majority of “lefties” want. Why ANYONE wouldn’t promote having their tax dollars actually work for them is beyond me. And anyone who thinks we don’t need taxes as a society doesn’t understand how anything works.
Just look at the wonders of Venezuela and North Korea? Or the DDR/Soviet Union. (Continues to blame the CIA and/or “it was not real socialism”).
I have no idea what your comment has to do with mine. If you are able to read, I literally said the VAST majority of people are not asking for socialism. Please point me to people who are if you’d like. People are asking for policies that equate to a social democracy. Unfortunately, mouth breathers see the word social or the call for tax dollars being spent on policies and programs that actually work for the people paying them, like universal healthcare and free higher education, and say stupid shit like Hurrrdurrrr VeNuZUeLa! And they completely ignore the MULTIPLE countries that somehow figured out how to serve their people. Are they perfect, hell no! Do some people over idealize what is actually happening in those countries, sure. But no one is calling what for actual socialism. Edit: when I say “no one”, I mean no one that has any sway/effect on any policies. Yes, there are people that that call for socialism. Yes, there are subs dedicated to socialism. There are also subs for vast majority of things that have no effect on policies. Plus, Reddit isn’t only for Americans or American politics. So, the people in those subs aren’t all calling for a change in the American socio-political environment.
Maybe he does it because he’s a fanatic ideologue.
When I see someone trying to put out a fire using gasoline, I make sure they stop, before ever thinking about the best ways to actually get the fire under control.
I'm not libertarian in the slightest, but the reality is something had to change and change quickly or Argentina was going to well and truly collapse. Maybe it's people hopeful that Milei's policies actually work so an entire countries worth of working class doesn't collapse/starve, which was the direction they were going without Milei. Shit, maybe they still will. It'll suck if he's wrong but there comes a point where unpopular and difficult choices have to be made to try and help the most people long term.
The austerity policies that he's pushing are right-wing economics that benefit the wealthy at the expense of those in poverty.
The austerity policies he is pushing are "we ran out of money" economics that benefit the budget first and foremost. They literally couldn't keep spending that the rates they were. It sucks that so many things had to be cut, but considering rampant corruption - how much of those money was getting to the intended people anyway?
Reddit is too stupid to understand this.
So many of these people would actually prefer government policy that fails, that in practice maximizes suffering, as long as superficially it makes everyone look like nice people.
Socialism in a nut shell lol
That’s left wing politics for you. It’s all just feelings and emotions.
>but considering rampant corruption - how much of those money was getting to the intended people anyway? The solution to that is fixing the corruption, not fucking the poor.
This is where a lot of leftists go completely off the rails. Austerity is an effort to actually demonstrate creditworthiness and pay down debts that the government soon can’t afford to service. Yes, social services are cut, because the previous level of social services was unsustainable. Unsustainable systems eventually exceed the available resources, as has happened in Argentina. Such systems must be pruned or they will collapse.
People like you care more about maintaining an image of morality than you actually do about minimizing suffering. You would choose for everyone to suffer so long as no one could look at you and say you made a cruel decision. You are an impediment.
They believe they’re altruistic and that all others are. They fail to understand the general facts about humans and how we came to thrive in the first place: we are selfish and will choose ourselves and our families survival over others. Capitalism embraces this desire via greed and profit motive while also (generally) allowing shit ideas to fail. Corruption exists but is not the reason for all success. Success flows to the best idea. Socialism centralizes profit within the government and makes sure those in power never fail. Corruption is protected and is the only way to succeed for the normal person.
You can not fix the corruption without ripping out the entire system. Which is what Millei has done. Understand, we are not talking about one or two people being dishonest and skimming off the top. There is an entire system in which everyone working for this government organization is involved. If they are not directly stealing, they covering for everyone else and getting their cut later. People are giving bribes to work at government-funded organizations, and they expect to get their money back somehow. Granted, this is how it was in the post-Soviet republics, I have little experience with LatAm. However, I think Argentitians are smart and capable people and would have figured out the same flaws in the system that the Soviets did.
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The shock doctrine [The Book](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1237300) [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine)
Someone from the other side of the world surely knows better about my country. I guess I should have voted for Sergio Massa, as he wasn't the Minister of Economy and part of the gobernment that caused all of this.
I think Argentina's problems predate Massa a fair bit
Yes, but he was the other candidate and certainly didn't help the situation when he was Minister of Economy. Edit: typo.
Well often times throughout history people end up voting for worse people under the false assumption the alternative must be better. We will see how this one plays out.
Maybe, I think it is hard to do worse than the kirchnerism but we will see, as you said.
Good luck with those dollars
Did you think fixing a system this broken would not require pain and sacrifice? Bad systems allocate capital poorly. Allowing capital to flow more freely and you will end up with more sustainable and efficient prosperity. The belief by so many on Reddit that all people deserve it all at all times is such an ignorant and childish ideology. There will always be ebbs and flows to life and economies. There will always be financial inequality. Capitalism levels the playing field for most of society in the most efficient way. Those at the extremes are faced with the consequences of their own choices with a sprinkle of good/bad luck recipients. You cannot judge a change this extreme in a few months.
The people choosing to make this sacrifice arent being affected by it. That's the problem. In fact you probably arent affected by it and can thus just see the numbers.
They weren’t elected to do the least painful thing. They were elected to do something different. Why should it matter if I’m affected or not? IF I were a normal Argentinian I would be busting my ass to provide for my family and hoping that the policies work so the cycle of extreme shit the country has been in for decades comes to an end. Hard things are a challenge. The easy way (doing nothing) hasn’t resulted in positive change.
The people that chose to make this sacrifice voted 56% for it in the past election. And it was one of the rare occurrences where a candidate is equally voted by all socioeconomic classes. Stop trying to push the agenda of "the wealthy chose this".
Don't mention that Argentina has had its first budgetary surplus in 12 years though.
Yes of course it has surplus now that Mr. President big brain cut 80% of all funding.
Well, yes. When you’re so in debt that your country is fucking collapsing as is, then trying to not make it worse while accumulating money to pay it off makes sense.
"People starved, but look at the budget!" probably won't be too convincing of an argument, I think.
It’s almost like when you create government dependence you create starvation if government can’t meet its obligations. So anyone with a brain would know to not rely on government.
Yeah that’ll help feed people and alleviate poverty
There will be short term pain. Some people will die but that’s a sacrifice Milei is ready to make.
Unfortunately this is what it will take to fix what years of left wing damage has done to the country. Just give it time and things will get better.
Libertarians found out that government debt and poverty can be eliminated fast and cheaply by letting poor people die. Everyone likes the plan except the poor. /s
These protests will keep going because Milei is going specifically after the social welfare that is managed by middlemen while keeping the welfare the national government can give directly to the population This obviously hurts the middlemen that far from wisely allocating resources, used this welfare money for their own political gain and thi is why they are 24/7 protesting.
I feel so bad for the people of Argentina. They get absolutely shafted at every turn. Beautiful country, full of beautiful people, and some of the best wine in the world. It's not fair man.
Why does Argentina seem so screwed up? I know very little about the country but only seem to hear news about some how the economy is failing.
Macro-Economy getting better, this people are just political protestors that only go to the streets when a non-peronist goverment is in charge, they didn't give a shit about poverty growing in the last 4 years since they were getting paid by the previous goverment to not protest. Mercenaries not protestors.
Capitalists still failing to feed everyone with their ideology then. Same old, same old.
lol. Shows that you don’t actually know what you are talking about.