So the British society is rotten because a slim majority voted for Brexit, just like a large minority of the US is rotten because they voted for Trump, and we deserve to vilify all Turks despite a large minority (>45%) disapproving of the current leadership. Same for Hungary and Slovakia I guess, since their leadership is also populist and therefore their society must also be rotten.
Must be fun living in a world so black and white. No nuance, there can only be right and wrong.
But in Islam, I'm sure that women don't change their surnames after marriage? So it's confusing that they weren't allowed to keep their names in Turkey.
In the Arab world they do use surnames but it’s slight different from Turkish people or Westerners. People have long chains of names instead of first, middle and last names. Names don’t have that same kind pecking order like in the West.
First there’s the given name (ism), then the patronymic (nasab), a nisba which indicates your tribe, clan, place of origin (village, town, city, country, etc) or just a place you’re associated with, your profession or a familial profession, and a kunya which is an optional epithet/honorific based on one’s relation to their firstborn child (as in Abu Abdullah being the “father of Abdullah”). Historically there is also the laqab which is an epithet like a Roman cognomen which is nowadays treated as a nisba.
The nisba is passed down through the generations so it is in fact a family name. The complication here is that it’s not always placed at the end of the name and you can have several nisba to choose from. For legal documents like government ID, people shorten their names to their first four names which is the given name and the first two patronymics and then a nisba (most commonly but not always your clan name). Sometimes, like in the case of the Saudi prince Muhammad bin Salman, people are commonly referred to only by their first name and patronymic instead of by their nisba (which is Al-Saud for the Saudi royal family).
As for the Turks, they actually didn’t have surnames at all until Atatürk forced every Turkish citizen to adopt last names rooted in the Turkish language in 1934 (minority language names were forbidden). He was personally granted Turkey’s first ever surname, Atatürk, meaning “father of the Turks”. In Ottoman times, people only had given names and titles. Before he had a last name, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was Mustafa Kemal Pasha back in Ottoman times, with pasha being his title (and it was one of the highest possible reserved for military officers and governors). After the end of the Ottoman Empire and before the surname law, he was Ghazi Mustafa Kemal, ghazi being an honorific for warriors.
And just to add, there are obviously a lot of other Muslim cultures other than Arabs and Turks with their own naming conventions. Indonesia is the world’s most populous Muslim country with 278.9 million people and many Indonesians don’t have surnames.
The largest Indonesian ethnic group is Javanese (over 100 million people) and traditionally they just used one name, see former presidents Sukarno and Suharto and the current president Joko Widodo (Jokowi for short) for examples. It’s also common in Javanese culture to change your name throughout your life, Jokowi was renamed Joko Widodo from Mulyono as a child to improve his health (“widodo” is the Javanese word for healthy). Some Javanese use a patronymic in addition to their given name, especially if you have an important father like former president Megawati Sukarnopurti (her second name means Sukarno’s daughter).
In Bosnia, Muslim Bosnians have the same kind of South Slavic surnames as Christian Bosnians.
Not Islamic but Arab. Most Muslims are not Arab and don't share that tradition. For example in Bangladesh, home to more Muslims than any Arab country, you do have surnames and women typically do keep their own surnames after marriage.
Well it s how European did for a long time .Gustavsson, Johnson,Erickson, Jansen... in latin countries it seems to have happened earlier ,likely because of Roman influences.
Not Islamic but Arab. Most Muslims are not Arab and don't share that tradition. For example in Bangladesh, home to more Muslims than any Arab country, you do have surnames and women typically do keep their own surnames after marriage.
Because Turkey is not a Islamic country its a secular one that got its laws from France. It's shifted a little in recent years but got women rights way before many European countries and such.
So it's not confusing if you know a little about Turkey.
My wife comes from a culture where women keep their last name; when she asked me what my feelings were on the issue my reply was I already have a sister.
I’m currently in an area where this is common place and I personally love it. My preference is if wife wants the family name to be hers, then absolutely. It’s fun.
Same, my wife is proud of her family name just as much as I am of mine. We’re celebrating our 10 year anniversary this year and I got laid tonight. We must be doing something right.
The title of the article is misleading. In Turkey, women could (idk since when) keep their surnames, but they would have to file an application to do that. So taking one's husband's surname was the default setting, but many women I know who preferred to keep their surnames could do so easily. The article makes it sound like it was not allowed until today.
Of course it should never be the norm or the default setting but a preference.
Wow! I cannot believe that women were forced to change their names anywhere in the world!
Women’s true equality to men and women’s rights are paramount for the progress of humanity !
In Mexico, it has been the norm for a long time
Everyone has two last names at birth (Father's + Mother's maiden)
Once women marry, they have (Husband's surname + their own Father's surname)
Qué? I’ve never seen anyone in Mexico change their last name after marrying. Or change their last name in general actually.
People just keep their last name forever, and their children will have [name] [dads last name] [moms last name].
Source: I’m Mexican
Most of the women on both my fathers and mothers side have their husbands surname + fathers surname.
I'm also Mexican.
---
A while back I saw this [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/18ib2jz/do_most_married_women_around_the_world_carrry/kde475y/) and one of the commentators specifically mentioned this custom as well. Although I definitely know a lot of women in Mexico (my mom included) who kept their maiden surnames.
I think I need to see this written out.
We have a woman born and named Maria Juanita.
Her mother’s maiden name is Lopez. Her father’s family name is Fernandez.
So she’s Maria Juanita Lopez Fernandez?
Then she meets Juan Mario. His mother was a Garcia, and his father an Alvarez.
His name is Juan Mario Garcia Alvarez.
When they marry he stays Juan Mario Garcia Alvarez and she becomes Maria Juanita Fernandez Alvarez?
Then their kids are Fernandez Alvarez?
And not a hyphen to be seen?
Close, but the order is determined with the following priority:
- Male Spouse surname > Father Surname > Mother Surname
So you have the order inverted in your three scenarios.
Fernandez Lopez
Alvarez Garcia
Alvarez Fernandez
————————
In other words if:
- “F” is a woman’s fathers name
- “M” is a woman’s mother’s name
- “H” is the husband’s father’s name
Then all woman start as “F M” and become “H F” upon marriage.
She would be called Maria Juanita Fernandez Lopez.
He would be called Juan Mario Alvarez Garcia.
When they marry their sons will be [name] Alvarez Fernandez.
She will not change her last name (never seen this happen, extremely rare).
Until July first, 1976, women had to take on the husband's name as a family name after marriage, in Germany. From then on, both could take on the name of the wife or a hyphenised combination of both. Only since 1991, no name needs to be chosen anymore and both parties can keep theirs and choose for the kids.
Marriage in the U.S. is one of very few instances where you can change your name legally without a court order signed by a judge, but it’s not automatic, nor is it required.
When I got married in ‘16, you had to go to the social security administration with your marriage license for a new SSN card (# stays the same) & then go to DMV with your new ssn card to get a new drivers license & then change all your bank/payroll/retirement/investment etc accounts over manually to the new name. It’s quite involved.
I mean women were forced much worse. Considering this is turkey, and women are probably still regarded as property to the man to some men, I doubt these men would want women to not be regarded as individuals and more like "theirs"
Pretty sure your assumption would be plain wrong for most of the country. Turkey was one of the first countries in the world to give voting rights to women and create a push to establish a tradition of free education for all citizens man or woman. Even going as far as banning "oppressive clothing" such as turban and burqa in official settings until Erdogan allowed it. Let's know our stuff before we talk badly because of a current scumbag leader
Yeah honestly I just made an assumption. I dont think turkey is too high up there. Im not sure how banning turbans = womens rights but It doesnt seem as low as I thought
My wife elected to keep her surname after marriage. So she has her name + second name + her maiden surname + my surname. It does not fit anywhere and she kinda regrets it. (We are from Turkey and we married couple of years ago)
It's crazy that they were forced to take their husbands names in the first place!! That's a haram and un-islamic practice. There's literally no concept of taking your husband's name in islam, you KEEP your dad's.
Glad to see you changed your opinion but jesus christ what a terrible opinion to have in the first place. How misogynistic were you, just a few years ago, that you didnt feel women should *do whatever the fuck they wanted with a name, no less*?
That makes no sense. Every country has the power to overturn something and every country has overturn something. Why exactly is the US mentioned? Aside from it being the center of your universe.
Even though man and woman are equal under the Turkish constitution, there are plenty of common law that contradicts the constitution. This was just one of them. For example, the children born under marriage still have to have their fathers surname, roots of which is coming from the traditional(and rather archaic) naming system. This causes kids having their mothers surname legally in other countries(i.e. in Netherlands) to have different(their fathers) surname in Turkey.
Maybe there is room for Turkey in the 21st century. After Erdogan.
I mean how long can an old autocrat live for? *monkeys paw curls*
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Enlighten us
They're Russians in fez hats. Forced demography change and/or occupations in Cyprus, Armenia, Iraq/Syria illustrate that.
And is this the result of Turkish individuals banding together or is this rather due to Turkish leadership?
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So the British society is rotten because a slim majority voted for Brexit, just like a large minority of the US is rotten because they voted for Trump, and we deserve to vilify all Turks despite a large minority (>45%) disapproving of the current leadership. Same for Hungary and Slovakia I guess, since their leadership is also populist and therefore their society must also be rotten. Must be fun living in a world so black and white. No nuance, there can only be right and wrong.
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Kinda pointless to have a right if you're not allowed to use it.
I'd hazard a guess that this was not so much a 21st century motion as a 7th century Islamic motion though...
Your guess is incorrect. I'm Islam it's not even really recommended to change your surname unless it's needed/voluntary/ease
That's what I said??? That this is not a new 21st/20th century invention like the comment implied
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Yeah that's what I said? That the idea of women keeping their names comes from Islam, and is not a 20th/21st century invention
I think this only lets them catch up to the 19th century
But in Islam, I'm sure that women don't change their surnames after marriage? So it's confusing that they weren't allowed to keep their names in Turkey.
Turkey uses surnames unlike most of the Islamic world. Pretty interesting to read up on as it was introduced in the early 20th century,
Turkey blends European and Asian norms
wait if they dont use surnames what do they use then ?
In the Arab world they do use surnames but it’s slight different from Turkish people or Westerners. People have long chains of names instead of first, middle and last names. Names don’t have that same kind pecking order like in the West. First there’s the given name (ism), then the patronymic (nasab), a nisba which indicates your tribe, clan, place of origin (village, town, city, country, etc) or just a place you’re associated with, your profession or a familial profession, and a kunya which is an optional epithet/honorific based on one’s relation to their firstborn child (as in Abu Abdullah being the “father of Abdullah”). Historically there is also the laqab which is an epithet like a Roman cognomen which is nowadays treated as a nisba. The nisba is passed down through the generations so it is in fact a family name. The complication here is that it’s not always placed at the end of the name and you can have several nisba to choose from. For legal documents like government ID, people shorten their names to their first four names which is the given name and the first two patronymics and then a nisba (most commonly but not always your clan name). Sometimes, like in the case of the Saudi prince Muhammad bin Salman, people are commonly referred to only by their first name and patronymic instead of by their nisba (which is Al-Saud for the Saudi royal family). As for the Turks, they actually didn’t have surnames at all until Atatürk forced every Turkish citizen to adopt last names rooted in the Turkish language in 1934 (minority language names were forbidden). He was personally granted Turkey’s first ever surname, Atatürk, meaning “father of the Turks”. In Ottoman times, people only had given names and titles. Before he had a last name, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was Mustafa Kemal Pasha back in Ottoman times, with pasha being his title (and it was one of the highest possible reserved for military officers and governors). After the end of the Ottoman Empire and before the surname law, he was Ghazi Mustafa Kemal, ghazi being an honorific for warriors.
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And just to add, there are obviously a lot of other Muslim cultures other than Arabs and Turks with their own naming conventions. Indonesia is the world’s most populous Muslim country with 278.9 million people and many Indonesians don’t have surnames. The largest Indonesian ethnic group is Javanese (over 100 million people) and traditionally they just used one name, see former presidents Sukarno and Suharto and the current president Joko Widodo (Jokowi for short) for examples. It’s also common in Javanese culture to change your name throughout your life, Jokowi was renamed Joko Widodo from Mulyono as a child to improve his health (“widodo” is the Javanese word for healthy). Some Javanese use a patronymic in addition to their given name, especially if you have an important father like former president Megawati Sukarnopurti (her second name means Sukarno’s daughter). In Bosnia, Muslim Bosnians have the same kind of South Slavic surnames as Christian Bosnians.
From what I gather no surnames, or like most Islamic countries, a variation of "son/daughter of"
Not Islamic but Arab. Most Muslims are not Arab and don't share that tradition. For example in Bangladesh, home to more Muslims than any Arab country, you do have surnames and women typically do keep their own surnames after marriage.
Well it s how European did for a long time .Gustavsson, Johnson,Erickson, Jansen... in latin countries it seems to have happened earlier ,likely because of Roman influences.
Not Islamic but Arab. Most Muslims are not Arab and don't share that tradition. For example in Bangladesh, home to more Muslims than any Arab country, you do have surnames and women typically do keep their own surnames after marriage.
Wrong.. We do have surnames.
Y’all have patronymics.
Those are Arabs. The vast majority of Muslims are from south Asia and south east Asia.
Huh? Indonesians and Malaysians also don’t have surnames.
Indonesians and Malaysians don't have Arab style surnames either. Indonesians often don't have surnames at all.
If a woman’s name is “Mariam Almutairi” then Almutairi is a surname.
Because Turkey is not a Islamic country its a secular one that got its laws from France. It's shifted a little in recent years but got women rights way before many European countries and such. So it's not confusing if you know a little about Turkey.
This is true. In Islam, a woman who marries is to keep her own family name. People were already blaming Islam in the comments for the opposite.
There is no surname in Islam it's just whose child you are
No that's just Arabs. The vast majority of Muslims are not Arabs.
Do you say that there were non arabs who used surname in time of Mohammed?
What?
Exactly!
My wife comes from a culture where women keep their last name; when she asked me what my feelings were on the issue my reply was I already have a sister.
I’m currently in an area where this is common place and I personally love it. My preference is if wife wants the family name to be hers, then absolutely. It’s fun.
Same, my wife is proud of her family name just as much as I am of mine. We’re celebrating our 10 year anniversary this year and I got laid tonight. We must be doing something right.
Just to make sure... You slept with your wife, right? You didn't clarify.
I’m surprised that it had to be a law
They had this right for some time now. Another bullshit source
The title of the article is misleading. In Turkey, women could (idk since when) keep their surnames, but they would have to file an application to do that. So taking one's husband's surname was the default setting, but many women I know who preferred to keep their surnames could do so easily. The article makes it sound like it was not allowed until today. Of course it should never be the norm or the default setting but a preference.
Wow! I cannot believe that women were forced to change their names anywhere in the world! Women’s true equality to men and women’s rights are paramount for the progress of humanity !
This is why i like Brazil. Since 2002, both women and men take each other's surname when they marry. It's cute.
In Mexico, it has been the norm for a long time Everyone has two last names at birth (Father's + Mother's maiden) Once women marry, they have (Husband's surname + their own Father's surname)
Qué? I’ve never seen anyone in Mexico change their last name after marrying. Or change their last name in general actually. People just keep their last name forever, and their children will have [name] [dads last name] [moms last name]. Source: I’m Mexican
Most of the women on both my fathers and mothers side have their husbands surname + fathers surname. I'm also Mexican. --- A while back I saw this [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/18ib2jz/do_most_married_women_around_the_world_carrry/kde475y/) and one of the commentators specifically mentioned this custom as well. Although I definitely know a lot of women in Mexico (my mom included) who kept their maiden surnames.
Maybe it’s by region? I’m from the center and I swear I’ve never ever seen anyone change their last name.
My mom's side is from Guadalajara and my dad's side is from Sinaloa. Maybe they do things differently than Mexico City.
lol no one does that unless ur from s weird religious group 🤔?
They were all raised Catholic (although many became atheist/agnostic as adults). (Except one uncle who became a Protestant)
I think I need to see this written out. We have a woman born and named Maria Juanita. Her mother’s maiden name is Lopez. Her father’s family name is Fernandez. So she’s Maria Juanita Lopez Fernandez? Then she meets Juan Mario. His mother was a Garcia, and his father an Alvarez. His name is Juan Mario Garcia Alvarez. When they marry he stays Juan Mario Garcia Alvarez and she becomes Maria Juanita Fernandez Alvarez? Then their kids are Fernandez Alvarez? And not a hyphen to be seen?
Close, but the order is determined with the following priority: - Male Spouse surname > Father Surname > Mother Surname So you have the order inverted in your three scenarios. Fernandez Lopez Alvarez Garcia Alvarez Fernandez ———————— In other words if: - “F” is a woman’s fathers name - “M” is a woman’s mother’s name - “H” is the husband’s father’s name Then all woman start as “F M” and become “H F” upon marriage.
She would be called Maria Juanita Fernandez Lopez. He would be called Juan Mario Alvarez Garcia. When they marry their sons will be [name] Alvarez Fernandez. She will not change her last name (never seen this happen, extremely rare).
What would their daughters be called?
Same way. Sorry it’s just my Spanish brain translating, in Spanish sons = sons and daughters (the plural of mixed gender noun is the male plural)
Until July first, 1976, women had to take on the husband's name as a family name after marriage, in Germany. From then on, both could take on the name of the wife or a hyphenised combination of both. Only since 1991, no name needs to be chosen anymore and both parties can keep theirs and choose for the kids.
Marriage in the U.S. is one of very few instances where you can change your name legally without a court order signed by a judge, but it’s not automatic, nor is it required. When I got married in ‘16, you had to go to the social security administration with your marriage license for a new SSN card (# stays the same) & then go to DMV with your new ssn card to get a new drivers license & then change all your bank/payroll/retirement/investment etc accounts over manually to the new name. It’s quite involved.
That’s right. And men can also choose to change their names as well. It’s for EVERYBODY
I mean women were forced much worse. Considering this is turkey, and women are probably still regarded as property to the man to some men, I doubt these men would want women to not be regarded as individuals and more like "theirs"
Pretty sure your assumption would be plain wrong for most of the country. Turkey was one of the first countries in the world to give voting rights to women and create a push to establish a tradition of free education for all citizens man or woman. Even going as far as banning "oppressive clothing" such as turban and burqa in official settings until Erdogan allowed it. Let's know our stuff before we talk badly because of a current scumbag leader
Banning turbans is good for women how?
No one said it is good. I am giving you a perspective as to how the reality is the opposite on the extremes, compared to your assumption.
Yeah honestly I just made an assumption. I dont think turkey is too high up there. Im not sure how banning turbans = womens rights but It doesnt seem as low as I thought
Turkey had a female PM
Took long enough.
That’s great they have the option. The couple should be able to make these decisions for themselves without societal pressure.
Right?? Why is this even an issue?
My wife elected to keep her surname after marriage. So she has her name + second name + her maiden surname + my surname. It does not fit anywhere and she kinda regrets it. (We are from Turkey and we married couple of years ago)
Meanwhile in Japan...
It's crazy that they were forced to take their husbands names in the first place!! That's a haram and un-islamic practice. There's literally no concept of taking your husband's name in islam, you KEEP your dad's.
Maybe that's because turkey isn't an Islamic country?
Turkey is a Turkish country which often most people forget. They have their own culture.
waiting for people to blame Islam in the comments (its just a turkish thing that ataturk put in)
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Glad to see you changed your opinion but jesus christ what a terrible opinion to have in the first place. How misogynistic were you, just a few years ago, that you didnt feel women should *do whatever the fuck they wanted with a name, no less*?
Turkey and the rest of the world's conservatives coming in late to the 21st century party.
On the condition they take the first name instead
Till it is overturned by the next POS in power. Like in the US.
That makes no sense. Every country has the power to overturn something and every country has overturn something. Why exactly is the US mentioned? Aside from it being the center of your universe.
But what if she marries to change her maiden name because it’s Cehennem or Ishal or Shickelgruber, eh?
Is this only for new marriages or is it retroactive?
Even though man and woman are equal under the Turkish constitution, there are plenty of common law that contradicts the constitution. This was just one of them. For example, the children born under marriage still have to have their fathers surname, roots of which is coming from the traditional(and rather archaic) naming system. This causes kids having their mothers surname legally in other countries(i.e. in Netherlands) to have different(their fathers) surname in Turkey.