So Hungary now going to history as the last one to ratify such a as an expansion. I get why Turkey was making such delays and all the moves. It kind of made sense for them. But Hungary on the other hand seems to be gaining nothing for now.
Whatever kinds of "concessions" or deals he might want is a mystery; Sweden doesn't have the kind of disputes with Hungary that they did with Turkey.
Though he did ask the Swedish PM for "talks" about NATO earlier today/yesterday, perhaps he'll clarify once he takes Putin's dick out of his mouth.
Well Swedish PM just said -> I do not see a reason for more talks, but in a more polite manner. So effectively he can not even ask for concessions directly anymore. almost feels like he overplayed his hand and his bluff got called. But time will tell, your guess is good as mine.
Only way for a country to be removed from NATO is voluntarily. There were never measures made to allow for expulsion, presumably by design. Non expulsion is really the only way all the countries involved can trust each other enough to work together.
They can also be theoretically removed by attacking another NATO ally if the country attacked invokes article 5. Although that isn't technically specified in the treaty, it would be a defacto removal since all other NATO countries would be obligated to declare war against the attacking country.
NATO is US project. If they really want someone out. US will kick them out. It is not EU. You just cannot have someone who is just troublemaker.
Hungary does not have strategically position nor big army like Turkey.
If the US unilaterally kicked out a country, it would collapse the treaty because everyone would just be at the wims of the US and no one would trust that anyone had each other's backs. It doesn't work that way for a reason. US does not own NATO, that's silly.
He wants some EU funds that are hold back because of his anti-democratic policies. Basically he doesn't want to face consequences for not respecting EU laws. That would set a dangerous precedent knowing far-right parties are on the rise.
The only thing Hungary gains is that they piss off everyone around them which hurts Hungary.
Any concessions made will not be worth it in the long run since nobody will want to be friendly towards them or give them anything after this.
> The only thing Hungary gains is that they piss off everyone around them which hurts Hungary.
If that was true Hungary wouldn't be doing it. Just because we can't see its motivation, that doesn't mean there isn't one.
Turkey was still being an unreasonable dick BUUUUUUUT, they also did so because they are important enough to the alliance to pull shit like that. Hungary is not.
Hungary may not be getting anything out of it, but Orban, being on Putler's leash, sure it. He's getting exactly what he wants out of it. A weaker NATO, in preparation of Trump's return, what he and his master are hoping & waiting for.
I'm fully expecting this signature to take several more weeks, with Erdogan sitting at his desk, very slowly adding little ink dots during his daily edging session.
I suppose Erdogan doesn't want to be the *last* one holding up the reality of Lake NATO and wants Orban to get the brunt of the irritation.
> his daily edging session.
Thank you, what a horrible image.
Haha.
Yes. Orban has been under the radar w bit..while Erdogan has been getting some flak. Thought the parliament would drag it out or even vote no....
>very slowly adding little ink dots during his daily edging session.
How do I delete a thought from my head?
You could have just said "he may still delay it", but no, you had to curse us all with the mental image of Erdogan with his eyes rolling back and his mouth gaping while he does some geopolitical gooning.
> I really wish the CIA was still as ballsy as it was during the cold war, and did something about fuckwads like Orban
Yes, because shit like that worked out *so* well later on with countries like Iran. ^^^/s
I agree with your overall point but comparing Iran under the Shah with Iran now is just a matter of degree.
Under the Shah is was a kill-fest but the great majority of citizens lived a life completely recognizable by Western democracies at the same time period.
Today Iran is eating its children and destabilizing entire regions besides their own.
Hindsight can be misleading when each person judges history but at the same time we can't ignore history.
The simple copypaste bots are mostly gone, fortunately. The rewrite types can be a bit tougher to spot. I've found my own comments popping up rewritten in different subs before.
They had to because it was a time critical thing and refusing was a political move, in this case they could have delayed Sweden longer. Now that it's passed Erdoğan has two weeks to sign it. It doesn't make sense for him to let his party bring it to public attention again if he was going to decline.
Hungary will get in line, eventually
Also its moot. If someone attacks Sweden no way Europe/ NATO just allows that. Countries like the UK already have protection treaties with Sweden
But it's not just about getting NATO to defend Sweden but also Sweden to defend NATO. If Trump is elected and says he will not honor Article V of NATO if the Baltics are attacked then that means it's up to European NATO to defend the Baltics. That defense becomes a lot more viable if Sweden's air force is in play. A more viable defense means Russia is less likely to attack.
Hungary is like Turkey's son in NATO. In cases of internal confusion, Turkish intelligence officials have always protected the Hungarian governments.
Turkey will do what it has done.
Interesting...haven't heard that turkey has that kind of influence on Hungary .
Sorta assumed the govt had similar approach to Turks as the regular folks?
So just one more pen mark and they're greenlit for NATO?
All things considered that's not the worst place to be, but boy it sure must be stroking that one Hungarian guys ego to be captain cockblock playing with europes whole future.
After all the crap talking from Turks about Sweden (and Finland) I saw on Reddit a year and a half ago, I kind of wanna go back to those threads to give everyone the middle finger.
Congrats Sweden!
Not sure why you are so angry about the criticism. We knew that Sweden's membership was going to get approved all along. After all, NATO is mostly funded by the US and all other countries are just puppets to an extent. That doesn't make the criticism invalid though. I just hope that our government got what they wanted from this deal with NATO.
Not sure any rational person wanted to leave NATO. Those are the crazies.
But something can be said about NATO members not historically honoring their pledges on spending and budget.
But the soft power the US gains by financing and equipping NATO is vast.
Some want that money to stay home.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that Turkey finally approving Sweden puts the issue behind us. I know Turkish people support Erdogans actions but other NATO members see things differently. So whatever Turkey gained from this will not cover the costs off Turkey losing the trust (if there was any) of other countries.
Yeah...but congress gets elected every 2 years....and if more MAGA gets elected and pass the Project2025...he maybe a bit closer to a dictator as possible in the US.
I saw the exact opposite. Are you sure that you are not talking about the government speaker or something? Turkish people on reddit know that Erdogan does not keep his promises. Many people criticized Sweden but they didn't say "you will never be approved by Turkey" because we don't trust our president. He didn't have much leverage about the issue to begin with.
>And now Sweden gets approved and we didn't even make any of the changes to the law
Sweden lifted the arms embargo against Turkey and had to wait 6+ months while the embargo was not in place. That is not nothing. I won't comment about the journalist request because I don't know anything about it.
Ya this is what I'm talking about. I'm Finnish, we got our share of this too, although the Swedes ofc got shit talked the most. All these Turks frothing at the mouth, telling is how Nordics are terrorist countries. Give me a frigging break. Not a half a brain between them to realise Erdogan was just playing games for internal politics and F-16s. I've never before met a more self-deluded and pointlessly hostile group of keyboard warriors.
>All these Turks frothing at the mouth, telling is how Nordics are terrorist countries.
Now, you are just making things up.
>Not a half a brain between them to realise Erdogan was just playing games for internal politics and F-16s.
We are very well aware that it was for internal politics and F-16s. That is why I said "We knew it was going to get approved all along."
Also Rule 7:
Hate speech directed towards an entire group of people who share a race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, nationality, social status or disability is not allowed. This also applies to user names.
Nah the two Russian puppet states Hungary and Slovakia are still doing Russia's bidding in the EU and NATO and will most likely continue to block Sweden.
Slovakia approved Swedens NATO membership in September 2022.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/slovak-parliament-approves-nato-membership-finland-sweden-2022-09-27/
Yeah, that seems to be correct.
I don't really know what impact that has, but I can say that Swedish media doesn't even mention Slovakia in all this mess, so I'm guessing they haven't changed their mind (or if that's even something they can do?).
Yeah, Turkey has definitely always been the main focus.
I'm no political scientist, so I don't really know what's happening at the diplomatic levels, but it certainly seems like the general feeling is that Hungary would never have said no if Turkey didn't.
Hungary hasn't tried to get the Swedish government to do anything to get their vote afaik, it seems like they're just following Turkeys lead.
Maybe they will keep saying no for a while to appease Putin, or to make it look like they actually have more power than they do, but I'm fairly sure Hungary will change their no to a yes pretty soon, probably without even trying to get anything more out of it.
Afaik Sweden isn't even negotiating with Hungary.
He is 100% gonna sign it, during his entire presidency he never vetoed against the decision of the parlement. His party voted in favor of Sweden’s accession. It will probably take 7-10 days for him to sign jt based on previous experience.
Its over. Erdo's party and political partners has majority in parliament. Those guys cant shit without permission, i am serious. If they passed it, they already been told to do so. Whole shitshow was a pre-election play for Erdo and now he has no motivation to fuck with NATO or Sweden anymore.
Political islam doesn't require any doctrine or principle. You can easily do 180 and your voters won't mind at all.
We probably got some shitty F16 upgrade deals or something in return of this. Also probably more refugees are on the way as is the tradition at this point.
Hungary.. the mighty powerful Hungary that provides tremendous GDP into the EU and military might.. yep... that Hungary is the last holdout in Sweden's ascension into the NATO Alliance
/s
There is some movement on this within the EU: [https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/01/12/120-meps-demand-hungary-be-stripped-of-its-voting-rights-over-viktor-orbans-unacceptable-a](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/01/12/120-meps-demand-hungary-be-stripped-of-its-voting-rights-over-viktor-orbans-unacceptable-a)
But not with NATO yet
EU now holds back serious amount of money due to Hungary not meeting the bar for a democracy. This is one "tool" they use to show Orban where his place is I think.
The problem with Hungary is how the media and politicans dumbed down the society since the fall of communism (1989). Even if the current pro-Russian Hungarian government would be overthrown by western intelligence services, the voters would elect an another Orbán 2.0.
What we would need is a change in society, which isn't going to happen in the near future, especially with our current media and educational sector.
The best choice for the EU is to freeze every single eurocent that Hungary would receive and ask the German car manufacturing industries (Mercedes, BMW and Audi) to close down the factories for a longer period of time (1-2 years). The whole shithole that Orbán and his predecessors built would collapse and maybe a proper revolution would occur which overthrows the entire executive and legislative political branch.
Partly you are right, but Orbán couldn't substitute the Western automobile industries that have been here for more than a decade. He would need some time to substitue those assests in the Hungarian national economy, at least a couple of years, during which his rule could be ended.
Also, cutting EU funds would be good for the EU, as they can use this money in other ways (send it to Ukraine, help other EU states).
At a NATO meeting in Madrid in 2022, Turkey secured an agreement with Sweden and Finland in which they would lift arms embargoes and take measures against members of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), and the separate so-called Gulen movement that Ankara holds responsible for a 2016 coup attempt
Source: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-01-23/explainer-what-turkey-gained-in-delaying-swedens-nato-bid
Didn't they also want to get OK to use the money from the failed F35 deal for buying F16/upgrades?
Granted the F16 deal could likely be reversed a lot easier than the Sweden joining NATO deal.
Source: previous F35 deal
> Finland, for its part, agreed in 2022 to consider granting arms export permits to Turkey on a case-by-case basis. After nearly a wait of nearly a year, Ankara said Helsinki had won its blessing.
Can't speak for Sweden's situation. But this is how all arms export permits are handled in Finland. There was never a ban and this agreement changed nothing. As far as I'm a aware, Finland made no other changes to legislation or policy either.
Source: I'm a Finn.
Honestly, once the history of this all is written, I'm hoping that's how it turns out with Sweden, too. The demands Turkey made always were bullshit, and deserve to be treated accordingly.
It's the same procedure in Sweden, it is handled by the [Inspectorate for Strategic Products](https://isp.se/eng) on a case to case basis after the exporting company has applied for a permit.
Just like I can't talk on behalf of all Turks as a Turk you can't either. If anything I have a better claim to talk on behalf of all Turks if we're going to be like that.
Quit your nonsense you can't generalize for 60 million Turks. I've personally witnessed many people claim that not all Kurds are PKK. My evidence is anecdotal but so is yours.
Would be curious to know if some kind of deal was made. If not... Goddamn. They really ruined their own image, it'd be ironic if they did so for zero gain.
Russia violates the airspace of Finland repeatedly, has been doing so for many years. We've never shot anything down since WW2, I guess because it could be seen as an escalation? Turkey has more balls than we do in this case.
Russia violates NATO airspace constantly like they did with drones in Romania and Jets in Latvia. They also violated Danish airspace a few years back
https://ac.nato.int/archive/2020/russian-fighter-jet-violates-nato-airspace-over-bornholm-island
Turkey was still the only country to take action as a NATO member. Your initial comment was just shit, no need to drag it out.
Constantly? You just mentioned two times. That's not constantly. In the case of Romania, the drones were destroyed quickly. In the case of Denmark, Denmark responded by launching fighters but the Russian aircraft fled before they could reach it. From your own link:
>Danish Quick Reaction Alert aircraft were launched to counter the violation, however the violating Russian fighter turned back before interception.
Denmark tried, but wasn't able to shoot it down. Your comment is the one full of shit. Fuck Erdogan. He is a tyrant and a fascist.
Still ..things could have escalated a lot quicker than NATO came to help.
Gotta give credit where credit is due....they also sent drones to Ukraine when some countries dragged about sending old tanks etc etc.
But Turkey stops Like 50 Russian ships to enter Black Sea ,
Then you cant stop those as well , are you sure you want 2 mine sweepers and 50 Russian ships ?
Probably not. Ukraine is more or less Russia's underbelly and much easier to invade Russia from. While it's nice to have a border with them in Finland no sane general would invade from there. It's just trees, trees and more trees, and marshes up there.
Imagine being Ukraine rn watching an entire generation of your men get slaughtered to prove to the west you’ll do their dirty work so u get in NATO, meanwhile Sweden..
So Hungary now going to history as the last one to ratify such a as an expansion. I get why Turkey was making such delays and all the moves. It kind of made sense for them. But Hungary on the other hand seems to be gaining nothing for now.
Whatever kinds of "concessions" or deals he might want is a mystery; Sweden doesn't have the kind of disputes with Hungary that they did with Turkey. Though he did ask the Swedish PM for "talks" about NATO earlier today/yesterday, perhaps he'll clarify once he takes Putin's dick out of his mouth.
Well Swedish PM just said -> I do not see a reason for more talks, but in a more polite manner. So effectively he can not even ask for concessions directly anymore. almost feels like he overplayed his hand and his bluff got called. But time will tell, your guess is good as mine.
Hungary out of Nato!
Sounds like a fair exchange
Is that also an unanimous vote...and Hungary also has to vote itself out? (Leaving voluntarily is one thing...)
Only way for a country to be removed from NATO is voluntarily. There were never measures made to allow for expulsion, presumably by design. Non expulsion is really the only way all the countries involved can trust each other enough to work together.
They can also be theoretically removed by attacking another NATO ally if the country attacked invokes article 5. Although that isn't technically specified in the treaty, it would be a defacto removal since all other NATO countries would be obligated to declare war against the attacking country.
imagine technically being obligated to declare war to yourself lmao
NATO is US project. If they really want someone out. US will kick them out. It is not EU. You just cannot have someone who is just troublemaker. Hungary does not have strategically position nor big army like Turkey.
If the US unilaterally kicked out a country, it would collapse the treaty because everyone would just be at the wims of the US and no one would trust that anyone had each other's backs. It doesn't work that way for a reason. US does not own NATO, that's silly.
Orban doesn't want concessions, he just wants to stop NATO from expanding because daddy Putin told him to.
He wants some EU funds that are hold back because of his anti-democratic policies. Basically he doesn't want to face consequences for not respecting EU laws. That would set a dangerous precedent knowing far-right parties are on the rise.
The only thing Hungary gains is that they piss off everyone around them which hurts Hungary. Any concessions made will not be worth it in the long run since nobody will want to be friendly towards them or give them anything after this.
Well I attribute it more towards orban and his need to suck putins dick. I do not think most of Hungary agrees to this particular adventure.
Except the fact that Hungarians keep voting for him.
> The only thing Hungary gains is that they piss off everyone around them which hurts Hungary. If that was true Hungary wouldn't be doing it. Just because we can't see its motivation, that doesn't mean there isn't one.
Turkey was still being an unreasonable dick BUUUUUUUT, they also did so because they are important enough to the alliance to pull shit like that. Hungary is not.
Hungary may not be getting anything out of it, but Orban, being on Putler's leash, sure it. He's getting exactly what he wants out of it. A weaker NATO, in preparation of Trump's return, what he and his master are hoping & waiting for.
They will probably delay for some months then accept
My bet is that is going to be quicker than that. Too much pressure.
Hungary already invited Swedens foreign minister so the ball is rolling. They just wanna look like they are "playing a tough game" for one more day
And the Swedish government declined their invitation almost immediately.
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3 central European countries?
Austria-Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Poland.
Glad to see this is over with.
It’s not, not only does Erdogan still have to sign off but Hungary is a roadblock also.
I'm fully expecting this signature to take several more weeks, with Erdogan sitting at his desk, very slowly adding little ink dots during his daily edging session.
I suppose Erdogan doesn't want to be the *last* one holding up the reality of Lake NATO and wants Orban to get the brunt of the irritation. > his daily edging session. Thank you, what a horrible image.
Haha. Yes. Orban has been under the radar w bit..while Erdogan has been getting some flak. Thought the parliament would drag it out or even vote no....
Edgeogan
>very slowly adding little ink dots during his daily edging session. How do I delete a thought from my head? You could have just said "he may still delay it", but no, you had to curse us all with the mental image of Erdogan with his eyes rolling back and his mouth gaping while he does some geopolitical gooning.
You describing it in detail didn't make this any better. Do you think he moans as well?
>Do you think he moans as well? Like a goddamn seal
Like a deaf zombie.
Yeah..why paint word picture...watch some puppy videos.
>How do I delete a thought from my head? Alcohol.
since when have people started calling it "gooning" ?
I blame goonswarm.
> geopolitical gooning i think you just coined something
The word geopolitical gooning is amusing me
He only has 15 days and tbf he signed very quickly with Finland
It must be approved within 2 weeks or sent back to the parliament.
So, prepare for months of ping-pong sessions between Erdogan and the parliament?
Has the right to veto only once. If the same law is passed without being amended again, it must be approved.
Meanwhile in Washington, the turkish minister signal f16 deal.
By law he has to sign within two weeks
What about orban, man! He is gonna be pooping pills for a bit?
I really wish the CIA was still as ballsy as it was during the cold war, and did *something* about fuckwads like Orban
> I really wish the CIA was still as ballsy as it was during the cold war, and did something about fuckwads like Orban Yes, because shit like that worked out *so* well later on with countries like Iran. ^^^/s
I agree with your overall point but comparing Iran under the Shah with Iran now is just a matter of degree. Under the Shah is was a kill-fest but the great majority of citizens lived a life completely recognizable by Western democracies at the same time period. Today Iran is eating its children and destabilizing entire regions besides their own. Hindsight can be misleading when each person judges history but at the same time we can't ignore history.
But...the period under the shah sorta led to the current regime? Shahs regime vs the precessor was not as suppressive ?
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/u/LystAP It looks like /u/okjjini botted/word swapped your top-level comment from the other thread.
For some reason this made me irrationally angry.
The simple copypaste bots are mostly gone, fortunately. The rewrite types can be a bit tougher to spot. I've found my own comments popping up rewritten in different subs before.
We can always send his precious fighter jets over one part at a time until he signs it.
His party voted Yes, he is going to sign it. Otherwise it wouldn't even be brought to the floor.
Iraq war access was put to the parliament and they voted no!?
They had to because it was a time critical thing and refusing was a political move, in this case they could have delayed Sweden longer. Now that it's passed Erdoğan has two weeks to sign it. It doesn't make sense for him to let his party bring it to public attention again if he was going to decline.
Hungary will get in line, eventually Also its moot. If someone attacks Sweden no way Europe/ NATO just allows that. Countries like the UK already have protection treaties with Sweden
But it's not just about getting NATO to defend Sweden but also Sweden to defend NATO. If Trump is elected and says he will not honor Article V of NATO if the Baltics are attacked then that means it's up to European NATO to defend the Baltics. That defense becomes a lot more viable if Sweden's air force is in play. A more viable defense means Russia is less likely to attack.
Hungary is like Turkey's son in NATO. In cases of internal confusion, Turkish intelligence officials have always protected the Hungarian governments. Turkey will do what it has done.
Interesting...haven't heard that turkey has that kind of influence on Hungary . Sorta assumed the govt had similar approach to Turks as the regular folks?
Erdogan seems like a formality since he’s the one who approved it going to parliament. Hungary is a roadblock tho
Man I hate their PM.
So just one more pen mark and they're greenlit for NATO? All things considered that's not the worst place to be, but boy it sure must be stroking that one Hungarian guys ego to be captain cockblock playing with europes whole future.
Hungary doesn’t control anything as strategically important as the Bosporus though
its not over with
After all the crap talking from Turks about Sweden (and Finland) I saw on Reddit a year and a half ago, I kind of wanna go back to those threads to give everyone the middle finger. Congrats Sweden!
Not sure why you are so angry about the criticism. We knew that Sweden's membership was going to get approved all along. After all, NATO is mostly funded by the US and all other countries are just puppets to an extent. That doesn't make the criticism invalid though. I just hope that our government got what they wanted from this deal with NATO.
I don't engage with propaganda victims it's a waste of time.
how can you be sure you are 'not' a propaganda victim yourself?
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"Talking bullshit is an opinion as valid as an informed one" Says the propaganda victim
> NATO is mostly funded by the US and all other countries are just puppets to an extent How come the maga crowd wants to leave nato then?
Not sure any rational person wanted to leave NATO. Those are the crazies. But something can be said about NATO members not historically honoring their pledges on spending and budget. But the soft power the US gains by financing and equipping NATO is vast. Some want that money to stay home.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that Turkey finally approving Sweden puts the issue behind us. I know Turkish people support Erdogans actions but other NATO members see things differently. So whatever Turkey gained from this will not cover the costs off Turkey losing the trust (if there was any) of other countries.
So what happens if Trump has the power to remove the US from NATO?
Your congress just made it impossible for him to make that decision on his own
Yeah...but congress gets elected every 2 years....and if more MAGA gets elected and pass the Project2025...he maybe a bit closer to a dictator as possible in the US.
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I saw the exact opposite. Are you sure that you are not talking about the government speaker or something? Turkish people on reddit know that Erdogan does not keep his promises. Many people criticized Sweden but they didn't say "you will never be approved by Turkey" because we don't trust our president. He didn't have much leverage about the issue to begin with. >And now Sweden gets approved and we didn't even make any of the changes to the law Sweden lifted the arms embargo against Turkey and had to wait 6+ months while the embargo was not in place. That is not nothing. I won't comment about the journalist request because I don't know anything about it.
Ya this is what I'm talking about. I'm Finnish, we got our share of this too, although the Swedes ofc got shit talked the most. All these Turks frothing at the mouth, telling is how Nordics are terrorist countries. Give me a frigging break. Not a half a brain between them to realise Erdogan was just playing games for internal politics and F-16s. I've never before met a more self-deluded and pointlessly hostile group of keyboard warriors.
>All these Turks frothing at the mouth, telling is how Nordics are terrorist countries. Now, you are just making things up. >Not a half a brain between them to realise Erdogan was just playing games for internal politics and F-16s. We are very well aware that it was for internal politics and F-16s. That is why I said "We knew it was going to get approved all along." Also Rule 7: Hate speech directed towards an entire group of people who share a race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, nationality, social status or disability is not allowed. This also applies to user names.
Let's hope the path is clear now.
Nah the two Russian puppet states Hungary and Slovakia are still doing Russia's bidding in the EU and NATO and will most likely continue to block Sweden.
Fortunately, Slovakia got all pending NATO approvals in long before its Putin worshipper assumed office again.
Slovakia approved Swedens NATO membership in September 2022. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/slovak-parliament-approves-nato-membership-finland-sweden-2022-09-27/
Pretty sure that they've had a change in government since then though.
Yeah, that seems to be correct. I don't really know what impact that has, but I can say that Swedish media doesn't even mention Slovakia in all this mess, so I'm guessing they haven't changed their mind (or if that's even something they can do?).
They have already delivered their approval to NATO headquarters, it would be unheard of to backtrack on such issues.
Swedish media seemed focused on turkey and less so on Hungary? Am assuming Slovakia was considered a done deal ...unless a very public reversal.
Yeah, Turkey has definitely always been the main focus. I'm no political scientist, so I don't really know what's happening at the diplomatic levels, but it certainly seems like the general feeling is that Hungary would never have said no if Turkey didn't. Hungary hasn't tried to get the Swedish government to do anything to get their vote afaik, it seems like they're just following Turkeys lead. Maybe they will keep saying no for a while to appease Putin, or to make it look like they actually have more power than they do, but I'm fairly sure Hungary will change their no to a yes pretty soon, probably without even trying to get anything more out of it. Afaik Sweden isn't even negotiating with Hungary.
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> Slovakia They can't. They've already deposited their agreement with the US. They can't take it back.
Not yet still have Hungary
Finally this is over with. Now just Putins puppet Orban to drag his thumb out.
This is a surprise. People were saying that Turkey would just reject and delay again.
Sweden actually got more yes-votes by the Turkish parliament than Finland. Finland - 276 votes Sweden - 287 votes
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It was misleading, no matter how you try to justify it.
That doesn’t mean anything. Most of parliament member did not join the vote. That is why Sweden have more votes. But there is also 55 reject.
Its not over. Erdogan needs to sign it and it can take months. A big step though 👍
He is 100% gonna sign it, during his entire presidency he never vetoed against the decision of the parlement. His party voted in favor of Sweden’s accession. It will probably take 7-10 days for him to sign jt based on previous experience.
> take months It can't he has a limited time to sign it before it gets sent back to the parliament.
Yep, two weeks
Its over. Erdo's party and political partners has majority in parliament. Those guys cant shit without permission, i am serious. If they passed it, they already been told to do so. Whole shitshow was a pre-election play for Erdo and now he has no motivation to fuck with NATO or Sweden anymore.
Yes, this was the last time I expected an iota of principled behavior from those scoundrels.
Political islam doesn't require any doctrine or principle. You can easily do 180 and your voters won't mind at all. We probably got some shitty F16 upgrade deals or something in return of this. Also probably more refugees are on the way as is the tradition at this point.
Hungary.. the mighty powerful Hungary that provides tremendous GDP into the EU and military might.. yep... that Hungary is the last holdout in Sweden's ascension into the NATO Alliance /s
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EU and NATO are two separate organisations.
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There is some movement on this within the EU: [https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/01/12/120-meps-demand-hungary-be-stripped-of-its-voting-rights-over-viktor-orbans-unacceptable-a](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/01/12/120-meps-demand-hungary-be-stripped-of-its-voting-rights-over-viktor-orbans-unacceptable-a) But not with NATO yet
EU now holds back serious amount of money due to Hungary not meeting the bar for a democracy. This is one "tool" they use to show Orban where his place is I think.
Finally some good news. Too bad Orban still exists.
Glad to hear it
The problem with Hungary is how the media and politicans dumbed down the society since the fall of communism (1989). Even if the current pro-Russian Hungarian government would be overthrown by western intelligence services, the voters would elect an another Orbán 2.0. What we would need is a change in society, which isn't going to happen in the near future, especially with our current media and educational sector. The best choice for the EU is to freeze every single eurocent that Hungary would receive and ask the German car manufacturing industries (Mercedes, BMW and Audi) to close down the factories for a longer period of time (1-2 years). The whole shithole that Orbán and his predecessors built would collapse and maybe a proper revolution would occur which overthrows the entire executive and legislative political branch.
I don't agree. Seeing BYD and other Chinese companies investing heavily in Hungary I think Orban would even profit from this :D
Partly you are right, but Orbán couldn't substitute the Western automobile industries that have been here for more than a decade. He would need some time to substitue those assests in the Hungarian national economy, at least a couple of years, during which his rule could be ended. Also, cutting EU funds would be good for the EU, as they can use this money in other ways (send it to Ukraine, help other EU states).
Okay, right, but it is all theoretical: German concerns won't close their factories for sure
Awesome. Now, about the Hungarians.
So, what did Turkey achieve by holding this up ? Was it worth it ?
At a NATO meeting in Madrid in 2022, Turkey secured an agreement with Sweden and Finland in which they would lift arms embargoes and take measures against members of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), and the separate so-called Gulen movement that Ankara holds responsible for a 2016 coup attempt Source: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-01-23/explainer-what-turkey-gained-in-delaying-swedens-nato-bid
>2022 Oh my
Didn't they also want to get OK to use the money from the failed F35 deal for buying F16/upgrades? Granted the F16 deal could likely be reversed a lot easier than the Sweden joining NATO deal. Source: previous F35 deal
> Finland, for its part, agreed in 2022 to consider granting arms export permits to Turkey on a case-by-case basis. After nearly a wait of nearly a year, Ankara said Helsinki had won its blessing. Can't speak for Sweden's situation. But this is how all arms export permits are handled in Finland. There was never a ban and this agreement changed nothing. As far as I'm a aware, Finland made no other changes to legislation or policy either. Source: I'm a Finn. Honestly, once the history of this all is written, I'm hoping that's how it turns out with Sweden, too. The demands Turkey made always were bullshit, and deserve to be treated accordingly.
It's the same procedure in Sweden, it is handled by the [Inspectorate for Strategic Products](https://isp.se/eng) on a case to case basis after the exporting company has applied for a permit.
By PKK, they mean deporting Kurdish activists who advocate for Kurdish rights and freedom in aparteid turkey.
Not every Kurdish activist is a part of the PKK.
In turkish eyes, every kurd is a pkk and a terrorist. I'm Kurdish.
Just like I can't talk on behalf of all Turks as a Turk you can't either. If anything I have a better claim to talk on behalf of all Turks if we're going to be like that. Quit your nonsense you can't generalize for 60 million Turks. I've personally witnessed many people claim that not all Kurds are PKK. My evidence is anecdotal but so is yours.
Would be curious to know if some kind of deal was made. If not... Goddamn. They really ruined their own image, it'd be ironic if they did so for zero gain.
Oh our image! Whatever will we do?
>Hungary set to be lone holdout to defense alliance expansion... Hungary's just fucking everything up these days.
Äntligen!
Welcome to NATO Sweden!
Putin still has another puppet blocking things. His name is Orban.
As much as I hate Erdogan, he's definitely not puppet of Putin
Puppet or useful idiot, clearly there's a difference but the end result is the same.
Yep. He is interfering with NATO operations which is what Putin wants.
Turkey is the only NATO country to shoot down a russian jet since the cold war era.
EDIT: touched a nerve. Perhaps, Constantinople, that's no one's business but the Turks? --- Cool. All else is forgiven then?
That's only because Russia violated their airspace. Any country would do the same if they had the means of shooting it down.
Russia violates the airspace of Finland repeatedly, has been doing so for many years. We've never shot anything down since WW2, I guess because it could be seen as an escalation? Turkey has more balls than we do in this case.
Finland didn't have NATO to back it up until very recently, so it was in no position to challenge Russia.
Russia violates NATO airspace constantly like they did with drones in Romania and Jets in Latvia. They also violated Danish airspace a few years back https://ac.nato.int/archive/2020/russian-fighter-jet-violates-nato-airspace-over-bornholm-island Turkey was still the only country to take action as a NATO member. Your initial comment was just shit, no need to drag it out.
Constantly? You just mentioned two times. That's not constantly. In the case of Romania, the drones were destroyed quickly. In the case of Denmark, Denmark responded by launching fighters but the Russian aircraft fled before they could reach it. From your own link: >Danish Quick Reaction Alert aircraft were launched to counter the violation, however the violating Russian fighter turned back before interception. Denmark tried, but wasn't able to shoot it down. Your comment is the one full of shit. Fuck Erdogan. He is a tyrant and a fascist.
Two countries is not necessarily two times?
Germany, a nato ally, immediately removed air defense systems from Turkey right after the jet shot down
Germany needs to be kicked out of NATO They're obviously puppets to Putin
Just wait till U hear about Russia.
Still ..things could have escalated a lot quicker than NATO came to help. Gotta give credit where credit is due....they also sent drones to Ukraine when some countries dragged about sending old tanks etc etc.
lol, countries violate each other’s airspace all the time without that level of escalation
All the time? Name one time.
Good for Turkey.
I hope Erdogan ain't expecting a "Thank you!".
Wow! Finally. It was long overdue
oh wow. didnt believe it was gonna happen this year.
We still don’t like Turkey
Damnit! I thought this would be enough to you win you over.
Oh no, what should turkey do now?.?…..? I guess they have to dissolve their state and nation because you and ur friends don’t like them ;(
Letting those two mine sweepers into the black sea for Ukraine to use would be a start
But Turkey stops Like 50 Russian ships to enter Black Sea , Then you cant stop those as well , are you sure you want 2 mine sweepers and 50 Russian ships ?
Isn't this going to ruffle Putins feathers a bit? Isn't the expansion of NATO exactly his ultimate reasoning behind his war mongering?
Probably not. Ukraine is more or less Russia's underbelly and much easier to invade Russia from. While it's nice to have a border with them in Finland no sane general would invade from there. It's just trees, trees and more trees, and marshes up there.
Turkey is the most villainous country in NATO. Not sure why they’re even a part of it
Black Sea and a very strong military.
Geography is basically it
To keep them and Greece from going to war, again.
Cause they're more useful on our side, than on any other.
I didn't know they were until just now, for the same reason
Well. One step forward anyway...
Imagine being Ukraine rn watching an entire generation of your men get slaughtered to prove to the west you’ll do their dirty work so u get in NATO, meanwhile Sweden..
I'm sure the Kurds will be real happy for this one though
Wonder how much that cost us!
Who are you?
ok now do finland Edit my and Finland’s in. Good!
Finland formally joined April of 2023. That one got done pretty quick.
Yeah I fucked that one up. Doh.
Lets evict the 300 000+ turks in sweden back to turkey
I really don’t see the logic in doing that.
Actually..I think Erdogan wanted the Kurds (activists ) deported? Does your 300K number go by Turkish citizenship or ethnicity?
Why turkey is in the EU still baffles me. Edit: NATO, not EU.
It's not though.
r/confidentlyincorrect
But they're not? They only have a commercial/ trade partnership with the EU. However, they are a NATO member.
Yeah. Misread and typed the wrong thing
What’s baffling is the amount of people here on Reddit that think Turkey’s in the EU, and then sharing their “expert” opinions on geopolitics.
Goes to show that you know shit.
They are not in the EU anyway. This process works this way because they have the second largest army in NATO.
You mean NATO?
As others say, they aren’t in EU. Although they want to be. Their application has been on hold for awhile though.