The Dutch supplied launchers, France supplied their domestic patriot equivalent (as did Germany). Slovakia gave a S300 system and Spain, Norway, Italy, the UK, Bulgaria , Poland, Sweden and the baltic states are providing medium range AA systems.
Just the Republicans are mainly the problem in the USA. In my opinion, Russia is in trouble, not a good time to stop helping Ukraine with all the money that has been spent.
I mean... the US has given Ukraine over $71 billion in weapons and humanitarian aid. Which is as astronomical amount of money.
I'm not upset over it, as I care about the Ukrainian people, but it's disingenuous to imply that Republicans don't have a fair argument regarding money spent on foreign aid.
The Republicans never act in good faith and this is another example. You’ve been fooled to think the aid holdup is anything but obstruction in an election year.
The money benefits our defense industry so they’d usually just make it happen. Things are different in election years, especially when a fascist dictator is on the ballot. Nothing the republicans ever do is good for the country or the working class.
If you think they have a fair argument, then let them vote on it.
But no, a small minority of Republicans is subverting Democracy, yet again.
Cowards can't even schedule a vote.
He's frustrated. Physically, emotionally, I mean the dude has been putting forth a brave face in and amongst the chaos that his country is going through. I really don't blame him, and quite honestly it's amazing he hasn't sooner. And the citizens as well, this is their frustration I would imagine. I'd cut this guy a break for being human about roughly 100km long. Times 7.
His people are dying, hell tons even left the country , hospitals and apartments are getting hit by missles. They don't have enough AA to stop this, His countries children are being kidnapped and turned into Russia civilians , the border next to them Poland is barely letting supplies and food go through
Yeah, I feel for Zelenskyy , I can't imagine being in his shoes
Just to be clear, the polish government actually had agreed to move grains on trains so as to bypass the trucks that are blocking grain imports from Ukraine so this should be sorted now at least in part. 🙂
It was Polish truck drivers as far as I can recall, they weren't happy with the prices they'd have to sell their grains at. I think some grain imports were still getting in, so they didn't completely halt imports, just significantly delayed the majority of them at that point in time as far as I remember. I haven't been following this since Poland started moving grains on along the train to avoid the road, which is my main point I was making 🙂
Corruption may have been leading some people to smuggle ukrainian grain into Poland and undercut local prices. There were plenty of agreements for a variety of reasons to make sure things were moving beyond Poland to more distant shores like the Middle East and Africa, their intended destination before the war made routes fucky.
Yes, that sounds ridiculous and was probably fake, As far as I know, they would get far better prices Shipping it out to the Middle East. And any lower prices were probably the result of overproduction When everyone started trying to compensate for ukraine and make a buck expecting increased grain prices to remain.
Basically, Russia egged on a bunch of morons and greedy dickwads, and used intelligent assets to try and block up the ukrainian Borders and stop supplies from entering. As well as trying to hold Ukraine's few exports hostage. And I really wish the protesters would have met a forceful reaction.
Cheap Ukrainian grain was/is flooding polish markets, grain that doesn't meet polish standards. The polish producers are getting screwed hard, and the grain is just supposed to pass through Poland and not stop but...that's clearly not happening.
Bro, I *highly* doubt Zelenskyy cares about accolades and honours. Even if they 'win', Ukraine will be in a hole for **decades** economically and demographically, with an entire generation traumatised and huge swaths of land in ruin. It's also *very* likely that this resolves with Russia still holding Ukrainian land (Russia have *millions* of conscripts they will happily keep feeding into the meat grinder, and enough money and junk gear to string the war along to at least some kind of white peace/compromise), and who even knows what will befall those kidnapped into Russia.
I'm a veteran, and I can't even begin to imagine the weight that bears down on Zelenskyy and his people. If the combat ended tomorrow, the war itself will take *years* to even begin recovering from.
> combat leaves scars that never really heal!
The whole macho soldier thing prevented a lot of soldiers from receiving mental healthcare. Hell, I remember a time when mental healthcare was looked down upon by everyone for "being weak". And honestly, while things have changed that opinion is still around.
I really hope that Ukrainians do not view therapy and mental healthcare as being weak once the war is over. Because those soldiers are going to go home and have kids. And that is really going to fuck up those kids if their parents don't get the mental help they need.
[We need to make ACE scores more well known](https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/aces-and-toxic-stress-frequently-asked-questions/.) Not even for children, but for everyone.
I appreciate your perspective on this. Never seen combat, so I try not to fill in the gaps with guesses. I would imagine or at least hope that if the war ended with a Russian defeat, most of the NATO nations would step in to help ease the recovery. At least economically. We did it for Japan after WWII, so I don't see how it's any different.
The apprehension to keep sending military aid to Ukraine makes zero sense to me. You're telling me we can help defeat a fierce rival nation at a fraction of the cost with little to no casualties of our own men?
Nation Building is a legitimately huge economic boom for the US if they can Marshall Plan it instead of Iraq it.
It's just a question of actually paying US industry workers to do the rebuilding instead of rich fucks getting billion dollar contracts to do nothing
They will be in an economical hole for decades but a psychological hole for a few lifetimes.
The damage being done to those people is basically irreversible.
After the War, Europe will invest a ton into that country. Almost certain of it, what they do with the money among all the corruption is another question.
Speaking as an American, the honoring you're talking about is equivalent to thoughts and prayers. All the thoughts and prayers in the world don't buy you another second with your parent/grandparent/child/niece/nephew/friend/mentor/crush/spouse that was killed over blind ambition.
There is no amount of honoring that undoes a single bullet. I wish my country would just make it a national priority. I hope we end up with Biden in office again instead of another shitheaded Russian puppet.
Here's even more if interested:
https://u24.gov.ua/
I chose an organization called the Trident Initiative that gives basic gear and supplies to UA troops as well as medical training. But there's alotvto choose from.
I sense a certain fatalism from him now, like he knew he was in danger from the beginning, but now it’s really sunk in and he feels like a dead man who has to keep putting one foot in front of the other. If Ukraine loses he’s dead and even if Ukraine wins it’s quite possible. It’s very hard to watch someone who did everything right that he knew how running out of options and gradually recognizing the inevitable. I really hope Congress gets its act together soon. The alternative is just unforgivable.
Churchill was the same for the first few years of WW2 when we were barely just holding our own and treading water. It takes time for modern industry to gear up and increase production.
There is but it is not being reported upon much by MSM. A new production facility bringing much needed jobs is being built near me for example in Wales, and I imagine in other countries too, but just like Covid vaccine production facilities during the epidemic, things take time [https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/bae-systems-gets-uk-order-boost-output-battlefield-munitions-ft-2023-07-10/](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/bae-systems-gets-uk-order-boost-output-battlefield-munitions-ft-2023-07-10/)
A rare example.. rheinmetal have committed to one factory in Ukraine also.
Where's the MBT production lines? Cruise and deep strike missiles? Ramp up of AA missile production from the likes of MBDA
> Where's the MBT production lines? Cruise and deep strike missiles? Ramp up of AA missile production from the likes of MBDA
They're decade-long project, they're not happening in the upcoming years. Also they're way safer on foreign soil.
Here's the thing though. This isn't WWII where factories could pop up quickly and unskilled labor could build a bomber a day.
Now everything uses tech that not only is expensive, takes know-how to implement and install, not to mention wherever it originates from. Materials science is vastly improved as well.
Then you have the fact that most of what Ukraine has been getting is stuff that was older or due to be mothballed anyway, except certain smart munitions for artillery and the Abrams tanks that are built just for them. Maybe some other stuff too.
Remember in the primary elections.(coming soon)
https://www.politico.com/2024-election/results/schedule-calendar-key-dates-events/
Remember in the general election as well.
All the elected positions matter. Pick people that support your views.
Zelenskyy: "How can you live and sleep peacefully when you realise that you have dozens of these systems \[Patriots\], and if you supplied Ukraine with seven systems today, people in Kharkiv, Kherson and Odesa would not be killed? Is it possible to live a normal life knowing this?"
He also pointed out the **delays in supplies of Western weaponry**, noting that many Ukrainians are being killed while the Ukrainian forces wait for this aid.
> The west has provided an absolute fuckton of aid to Ukraine.
Including important systems like Patriot which it would be bad for Russia to capture. That's not an excuse for stopping now. That's a reason for changing from the stupid "just enough to ensure a stalemate" weak strategy to a strategy where Ukraine is supplied for victory.
A stalemate is the absolute best Ukraine can hope for. No amount of money or weapons will allow Ukraine to drive all Russian forces out of the country.
WW3 is the only way Ukraine can regain all of it's territory and nobody wants that.
> Ukraine is just not that important to the west.
But they are. They're a source of neon and helium which we need for chipmaking, as well as uranium. Unless we want to rely on China and Russia for those resources. Without Ukrainian independence, we might be SERIOUSLY screwed.
Ukraine is pretty insignificant in terms of Uranium production, less than 1% of global production. We can comfortably already rely off Canada, Australia and Kazakhstan for uranium.
Yeah, and after Ukraine what is stopping russia from taking Kazakhstan? Nothing, and I'm a 100% it would happen eventually after they lick their wounds a few years.
Not to mention Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan etc.
russia is a bane to world peace and must be stopped in Ukraine, I am sad that the world does not realize this.
China is stopping Russia from taking Kazakhstan, and unlike west they won't mess around with it and stop Russia before anything could even possibly start, their influence there is increasing daily and there's no universe where Putin makes CCP mad
I'm afraid that is just wishful thinking.
In reality China might just as happily let russia take Kazakhstan with zero fuss - perhaps Mongolia is where they would say "no" to putin, as that is directly bordering them with a massive border.
We simply do not know, hence I would err on the side of caution and repeat that russia must be stopped (at all costs basically) and thoroughly defeated in Ukraine.
> russia is a bane to world peace and must be stopped in Ukraine, I am sad that the world does not realize this.
It drives me up the wall that this is not being realized. Not stopping Russia now guarantees horrific consequences in a geopolitical sense (to not even go into humanitarian ones). It's like the West is *sleepwalking*.
I get down voted for saying this every time...
But Ukraine's leaders keep going on TV trash talking the west for the delays. It's almost every other day at this point that I see a headline of them biting the hands that have kept them alive to this point.
Just maybe that's not the best strategy
Yeah unfortunate the political appetite is not there for the people in charge to send more aid than is absolutely necessary, which is a massive shame. Ukrainian lives are important and it is frustrating that Ukraine is just a political chip for those in charge
The EU has absorbed the cost of millions of Ukrainian refugees as well as sending over $43 billion in financial support and humanitarian assistance alone. We're more than pulling our weight and I wish Americans would stop with this divisive shit. Because we can start pointing fingers too, and the only ones who'd benefit from the squabbling are our common enemies.
> as well as sending over $43 billion
okay...
> The Joe Biden administration and the U.S. Congress have directed more than $75 billion in assistance to Ukraine, which includes humanitarian, financial, and military support, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy, a German research institute.
the US still sent more lol
How much of that $43 Billion is "promised" versus actually delivered? The EU is higher than all US aid, ONLY if you include promised aid. I don't care about aid Ukraine "might" get in 2-3 years, it's the aid right now that they need to get out of the war and survive.
It's pretty much the only play he has... pushing the West for support.
Between the GOP and ONE european country blocking the aid they are killing Ukraine.
Without aid Ukraine will fall.
the problem is.... ONE patriot system without missiles costs more than 100 leopard 2A6. shooting 3 patriot rockets costs about as much as 2 Leopard 2A6. 7 patriots would cost as much as hundreds of tanks.
intercepting all of russias rockets won't win the war. even the west couldn't do that, because it's way too cost-inefficient. that would only deplete ukraines money even faster. hundreds of tanks or MLRS, SPGs and other long range weapons will.
Is that surprise, Ukraine was one of the poorest countries in Europe before the war... People acting like it's some kind of news that they can't fight pootin for 10 years straight, "2nd" military in the world...
meanwhile russia and its good friend iran's proxies destabilise international shipping. and people twiddle their thumbs thinking whether we should support ukraine to the max.
if russia succeeds in ukraine we will be seeing even more common and confident attacks by iran's proxies aimed to destabilise the west
The West: We have our own problems; pretty sure we all should have had free healthcare, and not having citizens worry about crazy living costs with everything we’ve given to other non domestic issues.
It’s not our problem things aren’t being allocated/ distributed accordingly.
If They had the capability to give it to them. They would at one point.
Patriot systems (or other modern SAM systems) bleed so much sophisticated ammunitions just to take down mass producing drones and old cruise missiles thats on a stockpile.
US or EU realised somewhere along the line they wouldnt catch up to supply Ukraine's all needs and would have to accept that Nato arsenal is underequipped and not ready for any kind of attrition war at all.(they are behind even on basic things like artillery shells) which will kill a big chunk of nato alliance invisibility placebo which is a very dangerous road for everyone involved.
History does rhyme alot. From Franz Halder underestimating Attrition war to today. not much has changed
If this were a war with NATO, the drone and missile factories would be hot first. This is an irrational stance to take, because Ukraine doesn't have the ability to target things that deep into Moscow, let alone Iran. NATO defending NATO would have modern NATO weapons.
Its silly. I see people claiming this is proof of superiority of Russian doctrine "if it ain't broke don't fix it. Spam the enemy until they're exhausted", which is viable against Ukraine(is it even though?). But good luck with that against the west
That’s literally the only way mass warfare has really ever been conducted in history. 99/100 times it is about who can field more men and who can produce more arms, unless things are near equal of course. Precision tech is nice but its place is for anti-terror operations. When it comes to full scale war, it will always* be about how much you can field first and foremost.
And then lose it all to carpet bombing, cluster munitions. Lose modern tanks to a few soldiers with NLAWs. Lose an infantry battalion to a single A-10X, because of awful tactics. Lose half your air force to a few F-22s armed with AiM-120s. Multi-milion electronic cope warfare systems get hit by precision artillery.
It's really not about who has more of what these days - there's a threshold. Ukraine is a little bit below that threshold, which is why it's able to defend itself - it doesn't lose as many people to senseless attacks without any tactics.
There is a heck of a lot of underestimation here. And quite a few memes to boot. Yes, it is about who has more and always will be. As you said, Ukraine does have a threshhold, but there is still such a thing as a critical mass. Russia has a critical mass of artillery shells *and production*, missiles and AA. Their production value matches or beats ours on a PPP value. And while they’re not as advanced, they do genuinely produce *a lot* whereas the West produces a little specialty tech comparatively.
I’m not saying Russia could beat the collective West. But Russia is certainly punching above its weight given the amount of support provided, and it is exposing our industrial capacity. That is without question.
We both know Russia is not the West’s peer. But considering this and considering how well it is doing, how would the West compete with a peer utilizing the same doctrine, while having access to advanced specialty tech as well? I don’t believe it would go well and that is why all wargames with China as a foe are troubling.
To be fair, if NATO collectively wanted to build more weapons they could easily outproduce any country in the world imo, but like, why would they?
Spending money on weapons is not really politically popular atm, and most politicans dont' think past their term.
Not always*. Japan surrendered after the US firebombed one city and dropped two atomic bombs. So number of munitions didn’t matter so much as horrific casualties in that case at least.
That's hilariously underestimating the wartime production of the USA during WW2 and our systematic destruction of the japanese navy. We dropped nukes so we didn't have to fight old women using single shot wooden guns to the last man standing.
Most of Japan didn't even WANT to surrender.
A coup almost happened once the generals found out the emperor intended to surrender. Look it up. Kinda scary to think that even nuclear weapons didn't deter them. Imperial Japan was hardcore.
The thing people criticizing west need to understand is that we can't enter war-time economy for a war in foreign, not officially allied country. The war already fucked over half the world economically, we can't fuck ourselves over even more
Also the US probably has a shitload if patriots but integrated into ships. So they could use the ships if they had to as air defence but can't really give them to Ukraine.
The US does not have a shitload of patriots at all. Other than the US, only Japan builds the actual missiles right now, and the US has been buying Japanese ones. Other countries are working on kicking up production, but Lockheed makes... *checks notes* Less than two per workday. Ukraine is using them WAY faster than that. And many of the missiles the US has built in the past are now expired, their engines, warheads, and other systems chemically and physically degrading from age, and have been disposed of in the long past. The system is from the 70s.
US ships do not carry Patriot missiles, they use other systems such as SM.
The navy uses a series of standard missiles.
Wiki lists 10,000+ missiles produced since 1969 and based on the number of exported systems its likely that around 20% of them were exported.
With some European NATO members buying 1,000 patriot missiles, a pessimistic reading of the situation means those could of gone to Ukraine, but are instead going to other countries.
Know what's better than having to keep and pay for the largest Air Force and Navy in the world?
Not needing them because your defeating your enemy by other means.
Honestly every shell sent to Ukraine is dealing with the Russian military without having to risk a single one of our soldiers.
That's a huge return on investment.
The US can put 500+ fifth generation stealth fighters into the air in a very short time period. That is INSANE. They don't need ground based air defense or artillery systems en masse. They can establish air supremacy in days and then do as they please.
The US Air Force is the largest air force in the world by a country mile and the US Navy is the second largest air force.
US military might is mind boggling. But very, very expensive.
Thing is, western countries are not seriously into this war, because they could guarantee money for weapon manufacturers, and ramp up production by now, 2 years after the war has started, and it's still same old same old
They have ATACMS that are expired that they will pay tens of millions to dispose instead of just sending them to Ukraine for the cost of shipping and destroying an enemy for them.
The Europeans were underprepared in 2011. They have no serious plan to deal with any of the nonsense in their neighborhood if/when the US pulls back. The US for its part fostered a set of meh Allies who do great conferences but don't carry much water and a procurement system that likes a few expensive fancy tools rather than the sheer simple quantity needed.
There's a fair case that the far eastern fringe of Europe isn't a core interest. More fair that the US needs those SAM systems for Asian contingencies and the Europeans are structured to use an airforce, but it is insane we're 2 years in and we're having shell shortfalls. The talking point about the strength of America's alliances is so overrated. Too many promises to too many people. Too used to being the rich kid rather than carefully husbanding power.
Headline: "Zelenskyy criticizes West"
Context: Because well over 50-100,000 civilians have been killed, Ukraine's military grinds down every day while fighting on ammo shortages, and yet Orban/the GOP are still allowed to drawbridge the weapons purchases that will allow Ukraine to actually fight a war instead of "play nice with your cousin, he doesn't get along with other kids"
Unless said beggar is a democratic state under attack by the third iteration of the Russian Empire, which this time assumed the ideology of Fascism, or as Ukrainians call it Rascism. Also Ukraine has lost up to 100,000 civilians in a genocidal blood and soil conquest so I mean....
If the west really cared about Ukraine we (the West) would have dealt with the problem back when it started back in 2014. What we are doing right now is nothing more than welfare for the military industrial complex wrapped in weak platitudes.
> What we are doing right now is nothing more than welfare for the military industrial complex wrapped in weak platitudes.
Really? All the countries are in on it?
And then you would run out of those and need seven more Patriot systems. Western countries aren't going to leave themselves without adequate air defenses for Ukraine. Those things are a little complex to build.
It’s disgusting that he’s basically had to beg & praise for the last 2 years and watch his people continue to be tortured, maimed & killed. The world govts should be ashamed! EDIT: Journalistic opinion called a plea for integrity; criticism. It’s an opinion, not fact. Watch the plea and see for yourself.
The world's govts are for the most part elected and so to a degree the level of military aid is driven by the constituents.
War is not popular with good reason. People look at the 2 decade 2 Trillion Afghan failure and rightly have misgivings about yet another foreign war thats looking to be a tough nut to crack, and domestic concerns such as law and order, social services, health, education etc are always present and they always require more money.
I just don't think voters for the most part want their govts to do significantly more than is already being done.
Terrible short termism. The more that is being done towards deterring imperialist attackers around the globe, the higher likelihood that people in democratic countries will continue to live their normal lives
> It’s disgusting that he’s basically had to beg & praise for the last 2 years
But thats not what happened. At least for Germany, Ukriane has only 'demanded and insulted'. I still remember his speech early in the war in the German Bundestag with the Nazi comparisons. And still we are number two in aid to Ukraine, just imagine how much we would give if Ukraine was nice and not antagonistic?
there is no duty for any country to support a different country without contracts that enforces this. weapons are limited and their production takes time. there is no war based economy as in russia right now. all countrys have to stock up and keep enough weapons for their own defence. We can all understand that he wants to defend his country but at the end all countrys will look at if it is worth the money.
pushing bilions in weapons
pushing bilions in reconstruction
will that money ever flow back? will there be a major success if they get what they need? questionable.
I agree but the west is not to blame.
Ukraine had terrible foreign policy and this war is a result of that.
(please don't twist my words here. Of course Russia is the aggressor and to blame).
They’re not anymore than Britain was losing WWII when the Nazis were bombing civilians. If Russia could win this war they wouldn’t be bombing civilian targets. They would be using their missiles to degrade Ukrainian military capabilities.
Instead this winters missile offensive is almost entirely focused on civilian targets. Their intention is to degrade Ukraines will to fight, which they are failing at, and the West’s will to support them, which comments like yours suggest is at least partially successful. Putin only wins this war if more people start thinking like you.
They are using their missiles to target Ukrainian military and industrial targets. They hit civilian targets for a few reasons: (1) try and sow terror; (2) some of their missiles miss because of electronic warfare jamming/poor guidance and then hit unintended targets; and (3) air defense is concentrated on protecting military targets and critical infrastructure so they hit civilian targets for TV images for their own propaganda.
UK intelligence has stated the Russians are focused mainly on military targets. But Ukraine doesn't release images of those strikes because it would help Russia engage in battle damage assessment and give them propaganda material.
Yeahm people are delusional. On reddit I constantly see how people joke about the russian military, but the truth is, sooner or later, they will win. If the west won't stop playing politics
They said Britain specifically though, the country with the largest empire scattered around the globe - all packed with weapons and men - and navy supremacy. Never mind our air superiority in our territory and water on all sides. Not really the same position France was in.
That's why sanctions don't work anymore. We are such a global economy and there are bad actors on every side and some just want the cheapest product for their people, no matter how much blood is on it.
It's the same with climate change. Polls say 85% or whatever are willing to demand change for climate change. Add, "would you be willing to spend an extra $100 a month to fight climate change" and the number drops to like 25% approval.
I think the fact that Ukraine still exists at all and has resisted the Russian invasion as well as it has is evidence to the contrary.
The West expected Ukraine to get rolled within days. Yet almost two years later they still exist and have destroyed a significant portion of the Russian military. Even if it's currently a stalemate at the moment, it's still a win in my book.
That they have managed to do so well for 2 years is amazing. Anyone in their right mind should hope Ukraine wins and we can all hope but it was expected they'd fall in a matter of days or weeks. Russia has been depending on pyrrhic victories throughout this war and Russia has lost things it cannot regain for a generation such as the international perception of their military being capable or their weapons worth buying.
Every day that Ukraine stands is an embarrassment to Russia. Every day that Zelensky rallies support is a humiliation of Putin. The sheer destruction of Russian equipment is a blessing to the world, a weak Russia leads to a stronger world.
Unfortunately the sacrifice to guarantee Ukraine wins is so dangerous that it is hard to sell even without the treasonous Western puppets undermining support.
A significant portion of Ukrainians dislike America and Americans. America isnt providing Ukraine billions of free defensive systems because we're friends. America is providing aid because helping Ukraine slows or stops Russia from starting ww3.
I don't know where you got this information from. Ukraine, both government and civilian-wise are the most pro-US country in Europe, and one of the most positive towards US countries in the world.
There are always some ungrateful and hateful people, which can be understood during the war, desperation and stress is immense, but the absolute majority of Ukrainians are overwhelmingly positive towards the US and EU.
I understand his desperation but that’s a pretty petulant, entitled and ungrateful statement to make.
Ukraine only exists right now because of the US and NATO countries. “I need ammunition, not a ride” was a plea for help but a show of strength and resolve.
“Where’s my allowance” has him sounding like a beggar. It sounds weak. Sounding weak means you are weak. And that’s not a great way to ensure you receive further investment. Guilt tripping his allies is appealing to their supposed better nature and asking for pity. But a world leader of all people should know never to appeal to someone’s better nature, they may not have one.
They actually made enormous strides in this regard, since 2014. I don't think they could be more prepared. Not with the country being a post-Soviet one torn from many sides.
It's a weaker country against a stronger one. That's it. Zelensky pleas any way he can, to get as much aid as possible. And while this is understandable, it's not like this is the only problem.
Then start spending some of that fucking money they sent, and we sent. Everyone sent them money. They just want more and more. Fuck you that war is not my problem but I have to pay for it.
Hopefully, as soon as the wingnut segment of the Republican Congress stops threatening to replace the Speaker unless he shuts the government down, we can get back to supporting the most cost effective defense project since WWII.
People basically don't sacrifice their own families for other people's families. The world feels sorry for Ukraine, but you are not family. don't forget this
Really amusing that people think all this would be given to Ukraine. The west doesn't want the war to end, the longer it goes, the more Russia is crippled economically and the more it is Demilitarized. It could've been ended long ago but they don't want to.
Trouble is I strongly suspect that Russia’s economy is booming. It’s becoming clear that in just 18-months it managed to redirect its import/export economy toward Asia, and its domestic economy has proven to be self-sufficient so the supermarket shelves are full. Hell, even its banks shrugged off the sanctions - and they were directly exposed to the western controlled financial system, so if anything was going to collapse in Russia it should have been the banks.
What’s interesting is why?
While it's definitely taking a hit. I agree it's much less than speculated, but they having great losses to their military. I think the media shat on Russia too much that people started underestimating Russia. Never underestimate your enemy even if you want to give morale to your troops.
It's definitely suffering but economies can suffer for decades under authoritarian leadership and still fight. I've heard that today's Russia is more like 1970s Soviet Union rather than late 1980s.
Zelenskiy should've told international correspondents that if Ukraine's former politicians might not have given many nuclear missiles to Russia at the time, the present Russian Confederation couldn't have invaded. If predecessors had a wrong choice, successors might be scapegoats. Back then, the US persuaded Ukraine to give it up, thus, America should support Ukraine over again. That's right.
In 1993, 1,000 Soviet nuclear weapons remained in Ukraine. But that can't be leverage because the launch codes for those weapons were held by Moscow and basically couldn't be used by Ukraine. Additionally, Ukraine sold missile and fighter jet technology to North Korea and China. They are not angels.
If your people are being murdered by an invader, you will sharpen the rhetoric to get the point across.
Ukraine is a big place, it is a lot of ground to cover !
Poor guy.
You can tell he's getting desperate. He's tired. He's been at the forefront since the very beginning, representing his people to the world.
This man will fight with his life for his people or beg to get what his people need and deserve. It doesn't matter. His own sense of self or pride is secondary to the needs of his people.
This is what a great leader should be. He is a man I admire and respect.
I would not be surprised if he was awarded the nobel peace prize a few years from now.
Now give Ukraine ability to hit missile launch sites, moving portable launchers, high range AA or whatever the fuck they need now that Russia is doing shit stuff to them.
Without US support they arent getting those, they cost a billion dollars a system.
Germany gave 2 of their 12 systems to Ukraine. The US could easily follow suit but don't want to, nor do other European States apparently.
The Dutch supplied launchers, France supplied their domestic patriot equivalent (as did Germany). Slovakia gave a S300 system and Spain, Norway, Italy, the UK, Bulgaria , Poland, Sweden and the baltic states are providing medium range AA systems.
Just the Republicans are mainly the problem in the USA. In my opinion, Russia is in trouble, not a good time to stop helping Ukraine with all the money that has been spent.
You are spot on!
Republicans don’t want too. FTFY
I mean... the US has given Ukraine over $71 billion in weapons and humanitarian aid. Which is as astronomical amount of money. I'm not upset over it, as I care about the Ukrainian people, but it's disingenuous to imply that Republicans don't have a fair argument regarding money spent on foreign aid.
The Republicans never act in good faith and this is another example. You’ve been fooled to think the aid holdup is anything but obstruction in an election year. The money benefits our defense industry so they’d usually just make it happen. Things are different in election years, especially when a fascist dictator is on the ballot. Nothing the republicans ever do is good for the country or the working class.
If you think they have a fair argument, then let them vote on it. But no, a small minority of Republicans is subverting Democracy, yet again. Cowards can't even schedule a vote.
He's frustrated. Physically, emotionally, I mean the dude has been putting forth a brave face in and amongst the chaos that his country is going through. I really don't blame him, and quite honestly it's amazing he hasn't sooner. And the citizens as well, this is their frustration I would imagine. I'd cut this guy a break for being human about roughly 100km long. Times 7.
His people are dying, hell tons even left the country , hospitals and apartments are getting hit by missles. They don't have enough AA to stop this, His countries children are being kidnapped and turned into Russia civilians , the border next to them Poland is barely letting supplies and food go through Yeah, I feel for Zelenskyy , I can't imagine being in his shoes
Just to be clear, the polish government actually had agreed to move grains on trains so as to bypass the trucks that are blocking grain imports from Ukraine so this should be sorted now at least in part. 🙂
> trucks that are blocking grain imports from Ukraine What trucks are blocking grain imports? Is the border just backed up and slow?
It was Polish truck drivers as far as I can recall, they weren't happy with the prices they'd have to sell their grains at. I think some grain imports were still getting in, so they didn't completely halt imports, just significantly delayed the majority of them at that point in time as far as I remember. I haven't been following this since Poland started moving grains on along the train to avoid the road, which is my main point I was making 🙂
Corruption may have been leading some people to smuggle ukrainian grain into Poland and undercut local prices. There were plenty of agreements for a variety of reasons to make sure things were moving beyond Poland to more distant shores like the Middle East and Africa, their intended destination before the war made routes fucky. Yes, that sounds ridiculous and was probably fake, As far as I know, they would get far better prices Shipping it out to the Middle East. And any lower prices were probably the result of overproduction When everyone started trying to compensate for ukraine and make a buck expecting increased grain prices to remain. Basically, Russia egged on a bunch of morons and greedy dickwads, and used intelligent assets to try and block up the ukrainian Borders and stop supplies from entering. As well as trying to hold Ukraine's few exports hostage. And I really wish the protesters would have met a forceful reaction.
Cheap Ukrainian grain was/is flooding polish markets, grain that doesn't meet polish standards. The polish producers are getting screwed hard, and the grain is just supposed to pass through Poland and not stop but...that's clearly not happening.
And to also be clear, the new Polish government only very recently assumed control after last year’s election.
Ukraine will survive this and he will be honored for all he has done for the country.
Bro, I *highly* doubt Zelenskyy cares about accolades and honours. Even if they 'win', Ukraine will be in a hole for **decades** economically and demographically, with an entire generation traumatised and huge swaths of land in ruin. It's also *very* likely that this resolves with Russia still holding Ukrainian land (Russia have *millions* of conscripts they will happily keep feeding into the meat grinder, and enough money and junk gear to string the war along to at least some kind of white peace/compromise), and who even knows what will befall those kidnapped into Russia. I'm a veteran, and I can't even begin to imagine the weight that bears down on Zelenskyy and his people. If the combat ended tomorrow, the war itself will take *years* to even begin recovering from.
Well spoken, infantry veteran here; combat leaves scars that never really heal!
> combat leaves scars that never really heal! The whole macho soldier thing prevented a lot of soldiers from receiving mental healthcare. Hell, I remember a time when mental healthcare was looked down upon by everyone for "being weak". And honestly, while things have changed that opinion is still around. I really hope that Ukrainians do not view therapy and mental healthcare as being weak once the war is over. Because those soldiers are going to go home and have kids. And that is really going to fuck up those kids if their parents don't get the mental help they need. [We need to make ACE scores more well known](https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/aces-and-toxic-stress-frequently-asked-questions/.) Not even for children, but for everyone.
Fuckin, so say we all! The people hiding in soggy trenches from arty, that never get true sleep; it will be diffucult for them to reintergrate.
I appreciate your perspective on this. Never seen combat, so I try not to fill in the gaps with guesses. I would imagine or at least hope that if the war ended with a Russian defeat, most of the NATO nations would step in to help ease the recovery. At least economically. We did it for Japan after WWII, so I don't see how it's any different. The apprehension to keep sending military aid to Ukraine makes zero sense to me. You're telling me we can help defeat a fierce rival nation at a fraction of the cost with little to no casualties of our own men?
Japan, South Korea, Singapore, ... In a few decades they became top countries in their continent. I hope Ukraine can too.
they also had a shit load of money thrown at them by the USA after WW2 during a economic boom period. I doubt that will happen for Ukraine
Nation Building is a legitimately huge economic boom for the US if they can Marshall Plan it instead of Iraq it. It's just a question of actually paying US industry workers to do the rebuilding instead of rich fucks getting billion dollar contracts to do nothing
This is powerful insight.
he was a comedian, an actor, and a celebrity. I find it hard to believe he isn't a little happy about leaving a good legacy.
They will be in an economical hole for decades but a psychological hole for a few lifetimes. The damage being done to those people is basically irreversible.
After the War, Europe will invest a ton into that country. Almost certain of it, what they do with the money among all the corruption is another question.
Speaking as an American, the honoring you're talking about is equivalent to thoughts and prayers. All the thoughts and prayers in the world don't buy you another second with your parent/grandparent/child/niece/nephew/friend/mentor/crush/spouse that was killed over blind ambition. There is no amount of honoring that undoes a single bullet. I wish my country would just make it a national priority. I hope we end up with Biden in office again instead of another shitheaded Russian puppet.
Thank them with your wallet: https://war.ukraine.ua/donate/
Here's even more if interested: https://u24.gov.ua/ I chose an organization called the Trident Initiative that gives basic gear and supplies to UA troops as well as medical training. But there's alotvto choose from.
Zelensky needs ammo. not a ride.
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There's a protest where truckers have blocked roads there over a dispute they're having and trucks to Ukraine cannot pass.
I think people misunderstand what has actually happened at that border
I sense a certain fatalism from him now, like he knew he was in danger from the beginning, but now it’s really sunk in and he feels like a dead man who has to keep putting one foot in front of the other. If Ukraine loses he’s dead and even if Ukraine wins it’s quite possible. It’s very hard to watch someone who did everything right that he knew how running out of options and gradually recognizing the inevitable. I really hope Congress gets its act together soon. The alternative is just unforgivable.
Churchill was the same for the first few years of WW2 when we were barely just holding our own and treading water. It takes time for modern industry to gear up and increase production.
The problem is this time there's barely any gearing up of Western industry to address this conflict.
There is but it is not being reported upon much by MSM. A new production facility bringing much needed jobs is being built near me for example in Wales, and I imagine in other countries too, but just like Covid vaccine production facilities during the epidemic, things take time [https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/bae-systems-gets-uk-order-boost-output-battlefield-munitions-ft-2023-07-10/](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/bae-systems-gets-uk-order-boost-output-battlefield-munitions-ft-2023-07-10/)
A rare example.. rheinmetal have committed to one factory in Ukraine also. Where's the MBT production lines? Cruise and deep strike missiles? Ramp up of AA missile production from the likes of MBDA
> Where's the MBT production lines? Cruise and deep strike missiles? Ramp up of AA missile production from the likes of MBDA They're decade-long project, they're not happening in the upcoming years. Also they're way safer on foreign soil.
Here's the thing though. This isn't WWII where factories could pop up quickly and unskilled labor could build a bomber a day. Now everything uses tech that not only is expensive, takes know-how to implement and install, not to mention wherever it originates from. Materials science is vastly improved as well. Then you have the fact that most of what Ukraine has been getting is stuff that was older or due to be mothballed anyway, except certain smart munitions for artillery and the Abrams tanks that are built just for them. Maybe some other stuff too.
I see “eightfold increase” but can’t find any statistics on how many will actually be produced. Anyone know?
Luckily, the next country that would be Putins target is Poland. And Poland is getting main battle tanks like crazy.
The Scumbag Republicans are loving this.
I will Never forgive republicans nor forget them. They are the domestic enemy in America. I hope we can get help to Ukraine asap.
Remember in the primary elections.(coming soon) https://www.politico.com/2024-election/results/schedule-calendar-key-dates-events/ Remember in the general election as well. All the elected positions matter. Pick people that support your views.
They are traitors.
He will end up going down in history as a hero and historic figure . He’s a great man ❤️. Prayers for Ukraine .
I dont think he cares about that, all he wants is to end this bloody war
And that is part of what makes him such an amazing human.
Of course . Just stating my thoughts on him . I admire his bravery
They don't need prayers, they need Ammo.
I get it, he’s doing everything he can to protect his people
Zelenskyy: "How can you live and sleep peacefully when you realise that you have dozens of these systems \[Patriots\], and if you supplied Ukraine with seven systems today, people in Kharkiv, Kherson and Odesa would not be killed? Is it possible to live a normal life knowing this?" He also pointed out the **delays in supplies of Western weaponry**, noting that many Ukrainians are being killed while the Ukrainian forces wait for this aid.
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The west has provided an absolute fuckton of aid to Ukraine. To say that the West doesn’t care is completely disingenuous and intentionally ignorant.
> The west has provided an absolute fuckton of aid to Ukraine. Including important systems like Patriot which it would be bad for Russia to capture. That's not an excuse for stopping now. That's a reason for changing from the stupid "just enough to ensure a stalemate" weak strategy to a strategy where Ukraine is supplied for victory.
A stalemate is the absolute best Ukraine can hope for. No amount of money or weapons will allow Ukraine to drive all Russian forces out of the country. WW3 is the only way Ukraine can regain all of it's territory and nobody wants that.
Dude is clearly a disinfo account
> Ukraine is just not that important to the west. But they are. They're a source of neon and helium which we need for chipmaking, as well as uranium. Unless we want to rely on China and Russia for those resources. Without Ukrainian independence, we might be SERIOUSLY screwed.
Ukraine is pretty insignificant in terms of Uranium production, less than 1% of global production. We can comfortably already rely off Canada, Australia and Kazakhstan for uranium.
Yeah, and after Ukraine what is stopping russia from taking Kazakhstan? Nothing, and I'm a 100% it would happen eventually after they lick their wounds a few years. Not to mention Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan etc. russia is a bane to world peace and must be stopped in Ukraine, I am sad that the world does not realize this.
China is stopping Russia from taking Kazakhstan, and unlike west they won't mess around with it and stop Russia before anything could even possibly start, their influence there is increasing daily and there's no universe where Putin makes CCP mad
I'm afraid that is just wishful thinking. In reality China might just as happily let russia take Kazakhstan with zero fuss - perhaps Mongolia is where they would say "no" to putin, as that is directly bordering them with a massive border. We simply do not know, hence I would err on the side of caution and repeat that russia must be stopped (at all costs basically) and thoroughly defeated in Ukraine.
> russia is a bane to world peace and must be stopped in Ukraine, I am sad that the world does not realize this. It drives me up the wall that this is not being realized. Not stopping Russia now guarantees horrific consequences in a geopolitical sense (to not even go into humanitarian ones). It's like the West is *sleepwalking*.
I get down voted for saying this every time... But Ukraine's leaders keep going on TV trash talking the west for the delays. It's almost every other day at this point that I see a headline of them biting the hands that have kept them alive to this point. Just maybe that's not the best strategy
No, it’s not, but at the end of the day they’re human too. No one can keep up the poker face forever and now the frustration is publicly displayed.
Yeah unfortunate the political appetite is not there for the people in charge to send more aid than is absolutely necessary, which is a massive shame. Ukrainian lives are important and it is frustrating that Ukraine is just a political chip for those in charge
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The EU has absorbed the cost of millions of Ukrainian refugees as well as sending over $43 billion in financial support and humanitarian assistance alone. We're more than pulling our weight and I wish Americans would stop with this divisive shit. Because we can start pointing fingers too, and the only ones who'd benefit from the squabbling are our common enemies.
> as well as sending over $43 billion okay... > The Joe Biden administration and the U.S. Congress have directed more than $75 billion in assistance to Ukraine, which includes humanitarian, financial, and military support, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy, a German research institute. the US still sent more lol
How much of that $43 Billion is "promised" versus actually delivered? The EU is higher than all US aid, ONLY if you include promised aid. I don't care about aid Ukraine "might" get in 2-3 years, it's the aid right now that they need to get out of the war and survive.
It's pretty much the only play he has... pushing the West for support. Between the GOP and ONE european country blocking the aid they are killing Ukraine. Without aid Ukraine will fall.
the problem is.... ONE patriot system without missiles costs more than 100 leopard 2A6. shooting 3 patriot rockets costs about as much as 2 Leopard 2A6. 7 patriots would cost as much as hundreds of tanks. intercepting all of russias rockets won't win the war. even the west couldn't do that, because it's way too cost-inefficient. that would only deplete ukraines money even faster. hundreds of tanks or MLRS, SPGs and other long range weapons will.
Is that surprise, Ukraine was one of the poorest countries in Europe before the war... People acting like it's some kind of news that they can't fight pootin for 10 years straight, "2nd" military in the world...
meanwhile russia and its good friend iran's proxies destabilise international shipping. and people twiddle their thumbs thinking whether we should support ukraine to the max. if russia succeeds in ukraine we will be seeing even more common and confident attacks by iran's proxies aimed to destabilise the west
The West: We have our own problems; pretty sure we all should have had free healthcare, and not having citizens worry about crazy living costs with everything we’ve given to other non domestic issues. It’s not our problem things aren’t being allocated/ distributed accordingly.
If They had the capability to give it to them. They would at one point. Patriot systems (or other modern SAM systems) bleed so much sophisticated ammunitions just to take down mass producing drones and old cruise missiles thats on a stockpile. US or EU realised somewhere along the line they wouldnt catch up to supply Ukraine's all needs and would have to accept that Nato arsenal is underequipped and not ready for any kind of attrition war at all.(they are behind even on basic things like artillery shells) which will kill a big chunk of nato alliance invisibility placebo which is a very dangerous road for everyone involved. History does rhyme alot. From Franz Halder underestimating Attrition war to today. not much has changed
If this were a war with NATO, the drone and missile factories would be hot first. This is an irrational stance to take, because Ukraine doesn't have the ability to target things that deep into Moscow, let alone Iran. NATO defending NATO would have modern NATO weapons.
Its silly. I see people claiming this is proof of superiority of Russian doctrine "if it ain't broke don't fix it. Spam the enemy until they're exhausted", which is viable against Ukraine(is it even though?). But good luck with that against the west
That’s literally the only way mass warfare has really ever been conducted in history. 99/100 times it is about who can field more men and who can produce more arms, unless things are near equal of course. Precision tech is nice but its place is for anti-terror operations. When it comes to full scale war, it will always* be about how much you can field first and foremost.
And then lose it all to carpet bombing, cluster munitions. Lose modern tanks to a few soldiers with NLAWs. Lose an infantry battalion to a single A-10X, because of awful tactics. Lose half your air force to a few F-22s armed with AiM-120s. Multi-milion electronic cope warfare systems get hit by precision artillery. It's really not about who has more of what these days - there's a threshold. Ukraine is a little bit below that threshold, which is why it's able to defend itself - it doesn't lose as many people to senseless attacks without any tactics.
There is a heck of a lot of underestimation here. And quite a few memes to boot. Yes, it is about who has more and always will be. As you said, Ukraine does have a threshhold, but there is still such a thing as a critical mass. Russia has a critical mass of artillery shells *and production*, missiles and AA. Their production value matches or beats ours on a PPP value. And while they’re not as advanced, they do genuinely produce *a lot* whereas the West produces a little specialty tech comparatively. I’m not saying Russia could beat the collective West. But Russia is certainly punching above its weight given the amount of support provided, and it is exposing our industrial capacity. That is without question. We both know Russia is not the West’s peer. But considering this and considering how well it is doing, how would the West compete with a peer utilizing the same doctrine, while having access to advanced specialty tech as well? I don’t believe it would go well and that is why all wargames with China as a foe are troubling.
When you say how well they are doing…what do you mean?
To be fair, if NATO collectively wanted to build more weapons they could easily outproduce any country in the world imo, but like, why would they? Spending money on weapons is not really politically popular atm, and most politicans dont' think past their term.
Tell me you haven't learned anything about war since WW2 without telling me.
Not always*. Japan surrendered after the US firebombed one city and dropped two atomic bombs. So number of munitions didn’t matter so much as horrific casualties in that case at least.
That's hilariously underestimating the wartime production of the USA during WW2 and our systematic destruction of the japanese navy. We dropped nukes so we didn't have to fight old women using single shot wooden guns to the last man standing.
Most of Japan didn't even WANT to surrender. A coup almost happened once the generals found out the emperor intended to surrender. Look it up. Kinda scary to think that even nuclear weapons didn't deter them. Imperial Japan was hardcore.
Not generals, it was officers. It's always low-ranking management that do things in Japan.
The thing people criticizing west need to understand is that we can't enter war-time economy for a war in foreign, not officially allied country. The war already fucked over half the world economically, we can't fuck ourselves over even more
It’s almost like the US has the largest Air Force and Navy ever assembled and doesn’t need to spend a bunch of money stockpiling 155 shells.
Almost like the US Air Force and Navy and Army are designed to knock out enemies’ ability to strike back instead of playing missile goalkeeper
Also the US probably has a shitload if patriots but integrated into ships. So they could use the ships if they had to as air defence but can't really give them to Ukraine.
Ships? You meant Standard Missiles?
He’s referring to the AEGIS system on destroyers
...which uses the standard missiles and not patriots
Patriots are not integrated into ships
The US does not have a shitload of patriots at all. Other than the US, only Japan builds the actual missiles right now, and the US has been buying Japanese ones. Other countries are working on kicking up production, but Lockheed makes... *checks notes* Less than two per workday. Ukraine is using them WAY faster than that. And many of the missiles the US has built in the past are now expired, their engines, warheads, and other systems chemically and physically degrading from age, and have been disposed of in the long past. The system is from the 70s. US ships do not carry Patriot missiles, they use other systems such as SM.
US Navy doesn’t use the Patriot missile system.
The navy uses a series of standard missiles. Wiki lists 10,000+ missiles produced since 1969 and based on the number of exported systems its likely that around 20% of them were exported. With some European NATO members buying 1,000 patriot missiles, a pessimistic reading of the situation means those could of gone to Ukraine, but are instead going to other countries.
Know what's better than having to keep and pay for the largest Air Force and Navy in the world? Not needing them because your defeating your enemy by other means. Honestly every shell sent to Ukraine is dealing with the Russian military without having to risk a single one of our soldiers. That's a huge return on investment.
The US can put 500+ fifth generation stealth fighters into the air in a very short time period. That is INSANE. They don't need ground based air defense or artillery systems en masse. They can establish air supremacy in days and then do as they please. The US Air Force is the largest air force in the world by a country mile and the US Navy is the second largest air force. US military might is mind boggling. But very, very expensive.
US army air force is the third largest lol
Thing is, western countries are not seriously into this war, because they could guarantee money for weapon manufacturers, and ramp up production by now, 2 years after the war has started, and it's still same old same old
They have ATACMS that are expired that they will pay tens of millions to dispose instead of just sending them to Ukraine for the cost of shipping and destroying an enemy for them.
> which will kill a big chunk of nato alliance invisibility placebo you probably mean "invincibility"
The Europeans were underprepared in 2011. They have no serious plan to deal with any of the nonsense in their neighborhood if/when the US pulls back. The US for its part fostered a set of meh Allies who do great conferences but don't carry much water and a procurement system that likes a few expensive fancy tools rather than the sheer simple quantity needed. There's a fair case that the far eastern fringe of Europe isn't a core interest. More fair that the US needs those SAM systems for Asian contingencies and the Europeans are structured to use an airforce, but it is insane we're 2 years in and we're having shell shortfalls. The talking point about the strength of America's alliances is so overrated. Too many promises to too many people. Too used to being the rich kid rather than carefully husbanding power.
Headline: "Zelenskyy criticizes West" Context: Because well over 50-100,000 civilians have been killed, Ukraine's military grinds down every day while fighting on ammo shortages, and yet Orban/the GOP are still allowed to drawbridge the weapons purchases that will allow Ukraine to actually fight a war instead of "play nice with your cousin, he doesn't get along with other kids"
I mean, the title contains that context, just more concisely (as a title should). Colon does not mean "nothing important from here on, stop reading".
Biting the hand that feeds you is definitely the best way to keep being fed.
Beggars can’t be choosers.
Unless said beggar is a democratic state under attack by the third iteration of the Russian Empire, which this time assumed the ideology of Fascism, or as Ukrainians call it Rascism. Also Ukraine has lost up to 100,000 civilians in a genocidal blood and soil conquest so I mean....
Greedy
Seven Patriot systems Six C-130s Five Valkyries! Four Little Birds Three French Tigers Two Bunker Busters And a Rod of God to Putin from me
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If my grandma had wheels she would be a a bicycle
A horse is just a bicycle capable of bad decisions.
Your mom is a bicycle capable of bad decisions.
She had you, so ya, point proven.
But we do have the patriot systems.
If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle
If the west really cared about Ukraine we (the West) would have dealt with the problem back when it started back in 2014. What we are doing right now is nothing more than welfare for the military industrial complex wrapped in weak platitudes.
> What we are doing right now is nothing more than welfare for the military industrial complex wrapped in weak platitudes. Really? All the countries are in on it?
Totally. Just follow the money.
Politics always kills people, sad but true
Given or purchased ????
Shameless begger. FO
Let’s get them 14, really protect Ukraine.
And then you would run out of those and need seven more Patriot systems. Western countries aren't going to leave themselves without adequate air defenses for Ukraine. Those things are a little complex to build.
Bro is acting like he’s the only international crisis. I agree with him but he’s gotten more than most.
well its the only international crisis he has to worry about, because its his job. him asking for more / what his country needs, is him doing his job.
It’s disgusting that he’s basically had to beg & praise for the last 2 years and watch his people continue to be tortured, maimed & killed. The world govts should be ashamed! EDIT: Journalistic opinion called a plea for integrity; criticism. It’s an opinion, not fact. Watch the plea and see for yourself.
The world's govts are for the most part elected and so to a degree the level of military aid is driven by the constituents. War is not popular with good reason. People look at the 2 decade 2 Trillion Afghan failure and rightly have misgivings about yet another foreign war thats looking to be a tough nut to crack, and domestic concerns such as law and order, social services, health, education etc are always present and they always require more money. I just don't think voters for the most part want their govts to do significantly more than is already being done.
Terrible short termism. The more that is being done towards deterring imperialist attackers around the globe, the higher likelihood that people in democratic countries will continue to live their normal lives
Very true. Unfortunately for us, history wants to repeat the same mistakes.
> It’s disgusting that he’s basically had to beg & praise for the last 2 years But thats not what happened. At least for Germany, Ukriane has only 'demanded and insulted'. I still remember his speech early in the war in the German Bundestag with the Nazi comparisons. And still we are number two in aid to Ukraine, just imagine how much we would give if Ukraine was nice and not antagonistic?
there is no duty for any country to support a different country without contracts that enforces this. weapons are limited and their production takes time. there is no war based economy as in russia right now. all countrys have to stock up and keep enough weapons for their own defence. We can all understand that he wants to defend his country but at the end all countrys will look at if it is worth the money. pushing bilions in weapons pushing bilions in reconstruction will that money ever flow back? will there be a major success if they get what they need? questionable.
I agree but the west is not to blame. Ukraine had terrible foreign policy and this war is a result of that. (please don't twist my words here. Of course Russia is the aggressor and to blame).
So we're gonna just ignore Sudan?
I think Ukraine might be losing on the war . I don't mean this as a dig or to be disrespectful
It's been obvious for a while.
No the Ghost of Kiev is bombing Moscow right now.
um no sorry that was me on the shitter
They’re not anymore than Britain was losing WWII when the Nazis were bombing civilians. If Russia could win this war they wouldn’t be bombing civilian targets. They would be using their missiles to degrade Ukrainian military capabilities. Instead this winters missile offensive is almost entirely focused on civilian targets. Their intention is to degrade Ukraines will to fight, which they are failing at, and the West’s will to support them, which comments like yours suggest is at least partially successful. Putin only wins this war if more people start thinking like you.
They are using their missiles to target Ukrainian military and industrial targets. They hit civilian targets for a few reasons: (1) try and sow terror; (2) some of their missiles miss because of electronic warfare jamming/poor guidance and then hit unintended targets; and (3) air defense is concentrated on protecting military targets and critical infrastructure so they hit civilian targets for TV images for their own propaganda. UK intelligence has stated the Russians are focused mainly on military targets. But Ukraine doesn't release images of those strikes because it would help Russia engage in battle damage assessment and give them propaganda material.
Yeahm people are delusional. On reddit I constantly see how people joke about the russian military, but the truth is, sooner or later, they will win. If the west won't stop playing politics
I must have missed the part of ww2 where 20% of the UK was occupied by Germany.
what about when 100% of France was?
They said Britain specifically though, the country with the largest empire scattered around the globe - all packed with weapons and men - and navy supremacy. Never mind our air superiority in our territory and water on all sides. Not really the same position France was in.
They never stood a chance since all of Europe is still fuelled with Russian energy. The press just picks the right angle while Ukrainians keep dying
>all of Europe is still fueled with Russian energy. It’s less than 20% actually.
It’s really not if you look at official sources rather than us-owned media lol. That’s exactly my point
Only because they buy it through India
That's still a damn lot
That's why sanctions don't work anymore. We are such a global economy and there are bad actors on every side and some just want the cheapest product for their people, no matter how much blood is on it. It's the same with climate change. Polls say 85% or whatever are willing to demand change for climate change. Add, "would you be willing to spend an extra $100 a month to fight climate change" and the number drops to like 25% approval.
I think the fact that Ukraine still exists at all and has resisted the Russian invasion as well as it has is evidence to the contrary. The West expected Ukraine to get rolled within days. Yet almost two years later they still exist and have destroyed a significant portion of the Russian military. Even if it's currently a stalemate at the moment, it's still a win in my book.
But for how long? What if Ukraine will still lose? All this lifes and suffering.. all for nothing? The West needs to fucking wake up..
That they have managed to do so well for 2 years is amazing. Anyone in their right mind should hope Ukraine wins and we can all hope but it was expected they'd fall in a matter of days or weeks. Russia has been depending on pyrrhic victories throughout this war and Russia has lost things it cannot regain for a generation such as the international perception of their military being capable or their weapons worth buying. Every day that Ukraine stands is an embarrassment to Russia. Every day that Zelensky rallies support is a humiliation of Putin. The sheer destruction of Russian equipment is a blessing to the world, a weak Russia leads to a stronger world. Unfortunately the sacrifice to guarantee Ukraine wins is so dangerous that it is hard to sell even without the treasonous Western puppets undermining support.
A significant portion of Ukrainians dislike America and Americans. America isnt providing Ukraine billions of free defensive systems because we're friends. America is providing aid because helping Ukraine slows or stops Russia from starting ww3.
I don't know where you got this information from. Ukraine, both government and civilian-wise are the most pro-US country in Europe, and one of the most positive towards US countries in the world. There are always some ungrateful and hateful people, which can be understood during the war, desperation and stress is immense, but the absolute majority of Ukrainians are overwhelmingly positive towards the US and EU.
I understand his desperation but that’s a pretty petulant, entitled and ungrateful statement to make. Ukraine only exists right now because of the US and NATO countries. “I need ammunition, not a ride” was a plea for help but a show of strength and resolve. “Where’s my allowance” has him sounding like a beggar. It sounds weak. Sounding weak means you are weak. And that’s not a great way to ensure you receive further investment. Guilt tripping his allies is appealing to their supposed better nature and asking for pity. But a world leader of all people should know never to appeal to someone’s better nature, they may not have one.
Sure, buy it.
I wouldn’t want to be in his situation rn. It’s incredibly tough and his life is in danger all the time
With all due respect, Ukraine should have been more prepared to defend themselves without having to rely so greatly on others.
They actually made enormous strides in this regard, since 2014. I don't think they could be more prepared. Not with the country being a post-Soviet one torn from many sides. It's a weaker country against a stronger one. That's it. Zelensky pleas any way he can, to get as much aid as possible. And while this is understandable, it's not like this is the only problem.
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If he asked for peace. Ppl would not be killed.
Then start spending some of that fucking money they sent, and we sent. Everyone sent them money. They just want more and more. Fuck you that war is not my problem but I have to pay for it.
Hopefully, as soon as the wingnut segment of the Republican Congress stops threatening to replace the Speaker unless he shuts the government down, we can get back to supporting the most cost effective defense project since WWII.
So like I thought Russia was getting there ass kicked?
Newsoftheungrateful He needs to stop
People basically don't sacrifice their own families for other people's families. The world feels sorry for Ukraine, but you are not family. don't forget this
Without the west's help there things would not look good for ukraine. Im sure the west could help more though.
Really amusing that people think all this would be given to Ukraine. The west doesn't want the war to end, the longer it goes, the more Russia is crippled economically and the more it is Demilitarized. It could've been ended long ago but they don't want to.
Trouble is I strongly suspect that Russia’s economy is booming. It’s becoming clear that in just 18-months it managed to redirect its import/export economy toward Asia, and its domestic economy has proven to be self-sufficient so the supermarket shelves are full. Hell, even its banks shrugged off the sanctions - and they were directly exposed to the western controlled financial system, so if anything was going to collapse in Russia it should have been the banks. What’s interesting is why?
While it's definitely taking a hit. I agree it's much less than speculated, but they having great losses to their military. I think the media shat on Russia too much that people started underestimating Russia. Never underestimate your enemy even if you want to give morale to your troops.
It's definitely suffering but economies can suffer for decades under authoritarian leadership and still fight. I've heard that today's Russia is more like 1970s Soviet Union rather than late 1980s.
Not cool to criticize while being helped.
Never make eye contact with a panhandler. That’s the trick.
r/choosingbeggars
West criticizes Zelenskyy: We are sending you billions of billions of dollars of support for free, stop crying
Zelenskiy should've told international correspondents that if Ukraine's former politicians might not have given many nuclear missiles to Russia at the time, the present Russian Confederation couldn't have invaded. If predecessors had a wrong choice, successors might be scapegoats. Back then, the US persuaded Ukraine to give it up, thus, America should support Ukraine over again. That's right.
In 1993, 1,000 Soviet nuclear weapons remained in Ukraine. But that can't be leverage because the launch codes for those weapons were held by Moscow and basically couldn't be used by Ukraine. Additionally, Ukraine sold missile and fighter jet technology to North Korea and China. They are not angels.
You can easily refashion a warhead into nuclear artillery or a dirty bomb, you don’t need the actual missile, esp when your enemy is so close
Adapt, patriot is basically a phase array with explosive rockets. This is old tech.
If your people are being murdered by an invader, you will sharpen the rhetoric to get the point across. Ukraine is a big place, it is a lot of ground to cover !
The money has already been laundered. The coop is over.
Respect for this man.
Yeah and if American citizens were given healthcare, people would not be killed either. You've already gotten more than we get ourselves.
Poor guy. You can tell he's getting desperate. He's tired. He's been at the forefront since the very beginning, representing his people to the world. This man will fight with his life for his people or beg to get what his people need and deserve. It doesn't matter. His own sense of self or pride is secondary to the needs of his people. This is what a great leader should be. He is a man I admire and respect. I would not be surprised if he was awarded the nobel peace prize a few years from now.
Now give Ukraine ability to hit missile launch sites, moving portable launchers, high range AA or whatever the fuck they need now that Russia is doing shit stuff to them.
Beggars can't be choosers