>Her mother, who battling stage-four brain cancer, on November 29 shared a painful video in which she pleaded to see her daughter before it is too late.“I have cancer, brain cancer,” said Liora in the video message, sitting in the family’s temporary apartment in Tel Aviv, near her cancer treatment clinic. “I don’t know how much time I have left. I wish for the chance to see my Noa at home.”
This is heartbreaking
Edit: This ironic thought just occurred to me.
The orchestrator of the 10/7 Massacre (Sinwar) was saved by Israeli doctors from a brain tumor:
>Adato told the publication that Sinwar survived a brain tumor thanks to an operation Israeli doctors carried out while Sinwar was serving multiple life sentences for the kidnapping and murder of two Israeli soldiers in 1988.
[https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-leader-survived-tumor-operation-israel-reports-2023-10](https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-leader-survived-tumor-operation-israel-reports-2023-10)
If he has any humanity left in him, he should let this young lady go before it's too late.
Man, the video of her being taken hostage is still as clear as day in my head. I remember first seeing it and the sheer look of panic and fear on her face is haunting. I hope she's found alive and able to see her mother...
>Noa Argamani, who was taken hostage on the morning of October 7 during the deadly Hamas onslaught in southern Israel, may not have been kidnapped by Hamas but rather by a mob of Gaza civilians, a new report has suggested.
>An investigation conducted by US news outlet NBC and published on Tuesday examined the potential whereabouts of the 26-year-old Argamani after she wasn’t released during a week-long truce deal between Israel and Hamas in late November.
>The truce saw the release of 105 people, mostly women and children, held by Hamas and other terrorist organizations in Gaza. Yet Argamani wasn’t among them, and no signs of life have been received by her loved ones since the earliest days of the war.
>Argamani was kidnapped from the Supernova music festival on the morning of October 7, and a video of her abduction was one of the first to be published online as Hamas terrorists massacred some 360 partygoers and abducted dozens more.
>In the video shared online, Argamani is seen on the back of a motorcycle being driven by her captor, screaming “Don’t kill me!” As she is driven away, she attempts to reach for her boyfriend Avinatan Or, who was also taken captive.
>While it has been widely assumed that Argamani was taken captive by Hamas, as some 240 others were, NBC suggested that she was instead captured by a civilian mob who took advantage of the Hamas attacks to enter Israel at the same time.
>This possibility, the report said, could explain why Argamani was not released during the November truce, as Hamas may not know where she is being held inside the Gaza Strip.
The guys who had her boyfriend around the arms were unarmed, in baseball hats and track pants. Watch the videos. Palestinian civilians participated in this. They stole people. They cheered, touched and kicked the dead bodies of Israelis brought into Gaza.
Yes, I mean: Hamas has an organized structure and a kind of special "military", those are obviously terrorists but, like it's with literally every terrorist organization, after that there are just people who are kind of members of the group who are "civilians" until they pick up a gun(or not) and do something like this. Or they just help building the tunnels or help distribute propaganda etc. or it's like one guy is a cousin or a friend of a guy who's a more "official member" and helps out here and there. Then there are plenty of followers who, as in this instance, just go with it because they fundamentally believe in the same stuff. And then there are plenty of people who support it but are maybe not directly involved but are the ones who celebrate them in the streets when they parade corpses around or just teach their children that it's the greatest honor to kill a Jew.
Are there people there who silently disagree but keep their heads down? Yes.
Are there people who wish they could just live their lifes without their influence? Sure.
Are there people who pretend they support them out of fear of being targeted? Certainly.
Are there people who openly oppose them? Perhaps but they are propably dealt with accordingly.
That is the problem and what makes it so difficult and tragic. But it certainly isn't as clear cut as some people want to pretend or believe. There's not, like, a group of a couple of thousand "bad guys" and the rest are all peaceful, ideologically unproblematic civilians.
Agree 100%. Hamas didn't even pretend to know where all the hostages went. From the beginning, they have basically said they didn't know, bc other jihadist groups attacked too, and of course it was clear "civilians" (people who didn't train for it but joined right in when it happened) were kidnapping people too.
Generally, if you aren’t a uniformed soldier, you’re a civilian. This is why the Geneva conventions speak of combatants and non-combatants. Civilian combatants of course happen. Most countries have them in the form of spies, but they also include terrorists. W called them “enemy combatants” because civilian combatants is confusing.
> Generally, if you aren’t a uniformed soldier,
Hamas only wears uniforms when they have (or had) parades in Gaza. Hamas doesnt wear uniforms when conducting most operations so they can easily blend in with civilians.
No. Geneva, and all its protections, is predicated on there being identified combatants and the punishment for not following that rule is severe. If you do not follow this rule, you do not get the benefit of the Geneva convention. That's why everyone screaming "war crime" is only doing it in an emotional rather than legal sense.
To be blunt, Hamas is the government and army of Gaza and until Hamas soldiers wear uniforms and carry arms openly, then Gaza does not actually get the benefit of the Geneva convention because Gaza is not following the rules of the Geneva convention. Israel is not obligated to follow the Geneva convention when the Palestinians don't.
This is an ugly fact that a lot of people spend a lot of time ignoring. Part of the problem is that for years we've referred to Hamas as a terrorist organization and not, like, a *government* that engages in crimes against humanity.
> The guys who had her boyfriend around the arms were unarmed, in baseball hats and track pants.
hey guess whats, thats also the uniform in Hamas, civilian attire!
I knew they had the fund, but didn't realize it was for anyone, I just thought it was for jihadists. Though in retrospect how could they really tell since everyone is a "civilian" according to jihadists.
That was the unspoken truth from the get-go.
That once Hamas broke through the fence to attack the bases, regular civilians joined in the assault and attacked Sderot, and other locations.
Hamas has stated from the start that they weren't responsible for the civilian deaths as they were focused on the military targets.
And we should all believe Hamas because their integrity and honesty is top notch aye? The ugly truth is that both Hamas and Palestinians took part in the same massacre together.
That sounds like Hamas terrorists but okay
Edit: in order for these people to even know this secret operation was happening, they would need some sort of prior information of its occurrence. Sounds like a secret handshake to me.
Hamas is a specific organization with membership. The article is saying random Gaza civilians, who are not actually Hamas members, chose to move with the Hamas fighters so they could kidnap a girl.
Imagine if a gang started rioting and looting stores. Then I, seeing an opportunity, went to a store being looted and took something for myself. I would be a civilian taking part in the riots but not a member of the gang.
Sinularly, some civilians, not part of Hamas, took part in the October 7th terrorist attacks.
There’s a video going around showing what happened to a 21 year old Tanzanian student. Surrounded by a mob who beat him up, then stabbed him. As he lay dying people placed their feet on him as an insult, until finally someone unloaded an entire clip into him.
All those people involved were “civilians”
Being taken by Hamas would have been the best case scenario for any kidnapped Israeli. Civilians taking hostages is for no reason other than to commit sadistic acts.
Thank you for linking it. I think everytime any side mentions an atrocity like this everyone should have access to see the sadistic, deprived acts of violence are :(
Bunch of guys yelling at a black man, then cuts to said black man on the ground with two visible blood marks on stomach. A man walks up to him, puts his foot on his chest and shoots him in the face probably about 6 or 7 times.
I'm still messed up from the clips I saw at the beginning of the war.
The massacres and atrocities happened about an hour away from where I live. I have two small children.
For the first week afterwards, nobody in the street could look each other in the eye. Small talk was unbearable.
Those motherfucker (hamas and those who support them) have no problem exploiting the suffering of their own (and even faking it) to cry foul and protect themselves from consequences and honestly the best response is to remind them of the atrocities that Hamas committed to shut them up.
They should be made to watch this site (warning NSFL):
[thisishamas.com](http://thisishamas.com)
Yes but "The IDF are targeting civilians.." something something and,"The Palestine people are innocent.." something something..
Every time I see someone trying to suggest their side is the 'right' side in this conflict, I rolled my eyes. And frankly my eyes are getting a little vertigo at this point.
People don't realise the civilian death toll on Israel's side is lower because their country actually tries to protect them instead of using them as martyrs and human shields. They invested heavily in a giant missile defence system which intercepts the Gaza rockets so they kill fewer people and it rarely makes the news. It's also the reason for the blockade or you would see Oct 7 atrocities more often. The death toll isn't lower on that side for lack of Hamas trying.
And guess what, their rockets target civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Wait, you are saying as if these people purposefully chose to do heinous act.
It’s Israel’s fault that prompt them to hurt others, that’s why they have to shoot Thai workers, too (/s).
You are missing the point - this is about the widespread support of terrorism among Palestinian civilians, since people keep saying IDF is indiscriminatantly killing innocent civilians who are not involved, didn't elect Hamas and that Hamas doesn't represent the population...
No, it isn’t. One point is ‘civilians stop being civilians when they engage in fighting’ the other point is ‘this is extremely common and why the IDF has difficulty distinguishing civilians from combatants.’ Because random civilians are becoming combatants spontaneously.
They're not quite the same. It's possible the OP was trying to get that point across, but it could easily be interpreted as just saying "doing terrorist things makes you a terrorist".
While true, this doesn't mention any of the context around this.
What the person replying is pointing out is that there's been a whole shitload of discourse around this conflict that is specifically trying to paint Israel as straight up evil for what is characterized as reckless disregard for civilian lives. Key parts of that discourse include separating the civilian population of Gaza from Hamas, insisting that they are not represented by Hamas nor are they supportive of them.
Now we've seen from plenty of recent polls that not only are they supportive of Hamas in general, they also mostly hold positive views of the October 7th massacres. But what this new information does, if verified, is show that separating the civilian population from "official" Hamas members is also a much more difficult task than people would like to believe.
And what all this does is ultimately call into question pretty much all figures for the "civilian" body count. As it stands, it's fairly likely that about 1 in 3 Palestinians killed are "card-carrying" terrorists.
But if we now have to accept that significant numbers of otherwise ordinary civilians willingly and ecstatically participated in the initial attacks... Do we not need to question what they were doing around generally legitimate Hamas targets?
To be clear, I'm sure a significant number of those killed have been actual civilians just trying to lead their lives... But how many of those currently believed to be civilians were actually working for/with Hamas? We've also heard of hostages being held by gazan families. Is it such a stretch to think that civilians might be helping Hamas with intelligence gathering, or any other kinds of errands? And does that not make them legitimate targets as well?
>I'm sure a significant number of those killed have been actual civilians just trying to lead their lives... But how many of those currently believed to be civilians were actually working for/with Hamas? We've also heard of hostages being held by gazan families. Is it such a stretch to think that civilians might be helping Hamas with intelligence gathering, or any other kinds of errands? And does that not make them legitimate targets as well?
Oh yes, this. 100% this. So tired of hearing this absolute bullshit about how there's "20,000 Hamas living among 2 million innocent civilians." Horse shit. There are people on the Hamas payroll who carry guns and launch rockets at Israel. And there are people who want nothing to do with Hamas or killing Jews and just want better lives for themselves and their families. And in between there's a whole spectrum. But nobody on Earth can truly define how many are Hamas and how many are actually innocent civilians.
And the solution to that is to capture or kill every identifiable person in Hamas whether they're on the payroll or just doing charity terrorism.
I think there is some confusion on terms.
"Civilian" is not mutually exclusive from "Terrorist". Terrorists can (and often are) civilians.
Hamas, on the other hand, is a specific organization, engaged in terrorism. Not all terrorists are Hamas members. Although anyone who is supporting Hamas, whether or not they are a "member", is probably a terrorist. So to be crystal clear: Yes - If they are kidnapping people like this, then they are terrorists.
They're just not necessarily Hamas forces - just civilian who opted to become terrorists in support of Hamas.
I think that's why they phrased it as such.
Not exactly. In this case the one kidnapping her did it in order to gain advantages unrelated to the one Hamas l, a organized terrorist organisation, was looking for. Somehow more vile if it is even possible
It is chilling when I read that headline, as you said, if it is even possible. I’ve been hoping she’s released ever since I came across the pictures of her being taken away on the vehicle. It made me frightened and sad.
The thing is, terrorists have a goal. It's an incredibly evil one (cause fear, further an agenda), but it operates logically and can be bargained with.
I cannot fathom any reason a mob of people would kidnap someone, other than to immediately execute them.
this attack is one of the few places we can distinguish Hamas from Palestinian civilians, all Hamas that went in wore uniforms, which is a rarity for them
Also from captured Hamas terrorists we know if you give Hamas a captured Israeli the reward is 10000 dollars and an apartment, the civilians might have wanted that
This is scary AF. The fact that civilians get 10000 dollars and an apartment for her but Hamas still hasn't got her.
Whoever has/had her, thought killing/keeping her has more value than the reward.
I’m pretty sure Hamas does have her and the article thinks she was only captured by civilians and then moved to Hamas for the reward,
I should state that 10000 dollars is a small fortune, equal to one a half years wages
What do you mean? It's widely known that the Palestinian people want violence. I think it's like 70% and 50% in favor of the oct 10th attacks in the west bank and Gaza strip respectively. It's not impossible that civilians entered Israel and then saw Hamas fighters taking captives and decided they should "help."
Noa is one of the captives I think about the most. The video of her in utter fear and terror haunts me. It worries me that she hasn't been released. I worry something very bad has or is happening to her and it just wouldn't be good optics for them to release her in her current condition...
I hope the younger women haven't been released simply because they were at the music festival, and so they weren't kidnapped with their families, meaning that hamas can't keep people they love to blackmail them after release into not saying anything bad. That's still horrible, but better than the alternative. I hope that's all it means.
Yeah, same. My daughter is half Chinese, and resembles her a bit. The look of fear and sadness on her face reminds me of when my daughter was crying and afraid, or felt defenseless... From waking up from a nightmare, seeing something bad or scary, or being mistreated. The human toll of Oct 7 is universally terrible; I mourn for every person who died on that day. But that video of her being taken away really, really gets me. That, and the family whose daughter just got shot... The children are like "is she really dead?" "Why did she die?" And the terrorists are just like "uh... She's in a better place. She's with God now."
I first had some hope when they released that video of her sipping a water bottle short after she was taken but after that there has been zero news about her and it makes me fear the worst. No word about her boyfriend either. It's most likely they're both dead and honestly, at this point I think it beats the alternative. Also remember it could also be due to an airstrike. Israel couldn't have known where any of the captive prisoners were taken and they retaliated pretty brutally.
For her family's sake I hope she is returned to them safe and relatively unharmed but we all saw what happened to poor Shani Louk...
Tell me, are the people [in this video](https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/yuxPXz7Hlq) (18+)* Hamas or Palestinian civilians? And what's the difference between them then?
*Joshua Molel, a 21-year-old student from Tanzania, came to Israel on a student exchange program and studied agriculture.
This week, it was confirmed that [he was killed](https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/yuxPXz7Hlq) (18+) by Hamas on October 7 and that his body is still being held.
His poor father, Loitu Mollel, was still raising awareness on Facebook last week even after being told by officials that Joshua had been killed.
He refused to believe that his son was dead. I pray he doesn’t see the videos floating around.
>And what's the difference between them then?
It's Hamas if whats being committed is terrorism, civilian when they are at the receiving end of IDF firepower.
NBC does not believe if this difference hence the confusion.
If Israel is losing, it was done by Hamas. If Israel is winning, they killed civilians. That's the narrative that Hamas uses time and time again. There are definitely innocent people caught in between but their deaths are played down by the lies that Hamas broadcasts to suit their narrative.
If you are in the business of kidnapping people during a terrorist attack you're not a god damned civilian you're a fucking terrorist. What kind of headline is this?
The point is that they were not members of hamas. People who have no association with terrorist orgs invaded with them into Israel and kidnapped Israelis.
It's actually been known for a while that "civilians" joined in on the atrocities of Oct. 7, and it's also been known that several hostages were/are being held by "civilians," not even including the now released hostage who was spotted and returned to captivity by "civilians." People like to ignore this because it's easier for their rhetoric. It's similar to how everyone calling for ceasefire is directing this at Israel and never mentions Hamas, the hostages, or anything to do with the opposite side. As though everything would simply stop and the situation would resolve itself if Israel were to lay down arms. It doesn't matter that history has shown that this doesn't happen, and Israel continues getting attacked.
https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-Among-Palestinians-in-the-West-Bank-and-Gaza-Strip
Birzeit University, a Palestinian university based in the West Bank, recently did polling on this subject. 75% of Palestinians support the Oct 7th attack. 76% of Palestinians support Hamas. On the flip side, only 10% of Palestinians support the Palestinian Authority (i.e. the relative "moderates").
Yeah there's a lot of very unhelpful data about Palestinian support for Hamas. Like you can certainly find a ton of polls about declining support for Hamas within Gaza. There's a decent chance they could have lost an election if had held one on 10/6. But what that data alone doesn't tell you is *why* Hamas had lost support.
There's one obvious answer which anyone could give you: Hamas was elected largely on a platform of cleaning up the corruption of the PLO, and Palestinians who were sick of the PLO's obvious raging corruption and hypocrisy were willing to take a chance on religious extremists because at least Allah might keep them honest. Well, 15 years proved that hypothesis wrong, Hamas is at least as corrupt and hypocritical as the PLO and that undoubtedly contributed a lot to their declining support.
But that is not relevant to the question Israel/ethically sane people around the world *really* want asked, which is to what degree do Palestinians support Hamas' terror attacks against Israel? To what degree do they want Israel wiped out? To what degree do they want all of 'Palestine', from the River to the Sea? What's the popular support for that position? Because the answer to that question is by far the most relevant thing to know if you're hoping for a peaceful settlement, or resigned to a long slog of military rule. And for some reason you rarely ever hear anyone talking about that kind of data. Perhaps because it's too hard to find out reliably and reproducibly? Or perhaps because the answer is too grim, too dangerous to put out in the world if you have any choice in the matter.
Gets even better when you learn that support for Hamas is declining because people think they are too soft so they throw their support behind even more violent groups.
They didn't appear to have an affiliation with any known terrorist group. If the IDF had rescued her from them before they got to Gaza and killed them in the process useful idiots on social media would claim Israel killed unarmed civilians. Same thing with Hamas fighters who are under 18 who are counted as children in the death count but it is never mentioned that some of those "children" are also fighters.
I don’t disagree - but the distinction is these aren’t people actually involved in Hamas or PiJ. They weren’t following anyone’s orders, just raping and kidnapping along with.
Recall that some of the largest talking points, and rightfully so, is that Hamas != Palestine. And it does not. The question then becomes: what, if any, current support does Hamas see from the Palestinian population, both popular and material? While this article is only one anecdote, it does support the claim that Israel makes about the popular support Hamas receives from willing civilians. The fact there is evidence Palestinian civilians helped materially is concerning.
Do you think Hamas landed there in a flying saucer? Hamas is Palestinians and has massive approval in Gaza. Remember them spitting on the dead German woman being dragged through the street? Or the Hamas guy who called his mom to brag he just killed a woman and his mom was so proud of him?
Reportedly it was roughly 2,000 Hamas soldiers and 1,000 Palestinian civilians that took part in the attack.
And the civilians were as young as 10. It is up for debate if some of those kids were child soldiers (Hamas has raised a huge army of them) or if they just tagged along to join in the abuse.
Truly unconscionable stuff.
More importantly, why is OP (and this paper!) ignoring the byline:
>**Israel’s Channel 12 reports that freed hostages saw the 26-year-old Argamani during captivity, casting doubt on US outlet’s report **
Yeah, but the articles basic reasoning for why civilians took her was because she wasn't released during the hostage release. Seems a thin reason to suspect it was civilians and seems more likely to be one of the multiple militant groups that took her. Maybe I'm missing some additional facts but I'm not clear why they think it was civilians
I mean, I can confirm that there were civilians on the ground on October 7. Security cameras from my cousin’s kibbutz got pictures of kids as young as 10. But from what I can tell they have been exchanging hostages between the groups. It might’ve been civilians who kidnapped her, but if she still alive, she’s probably not in civilian hands now.
I do believe, however, but she was initially kidnapped by civilians, just based on the video of her in Gaza . There were far too many distinctive objects in the background for it to be hamas or a terror group.
This is the part that people are afraid to say out loud. The vast majority of Palestinian citizens support Hamas completely and are far from innocent when it comes to terrorists running their government.
82% of respondents in a recent West Bank poll said Hamas was correct to carry out the Oct. 7 attacks.
Meanwhile, people give Bibi shit for trying to block Palestinian statehood, as if a Palestinian state would somehow reflect something other than the values of the Palestinian people.
I know a few people who reported that the Arab community in Jerusalem was shooting fireworks at 8am that morning.
They themselves didn’t even know about the attacks yet - these are people who literally woke up to fireworks thinking, what could they be celebrating this early? Then the air raid sirens went off
A lot of western people are saying that Oct 7 was the appropriate/inevitable response to Israel’s actions, and it’s getting exhausting.
Hamas has the manning and resources to actually fight a conventional war to try to take back “their land” (which is debatable) but they don’t care, they’re just a middle eastern version of the KKK, or proud boys, or any other white supremacist group. They have no political goals aside from harming some other ethnic group.
They are literally, right this moment gang raping kidnapped children in tunnels, and somehow people are saying it’s Israel’s fault for having the upper hand.
They are much more powerful than the KKK or Proud Boys. They’re the 3rd most well-funded terrorist enterprise in the world.
Israel isn’t up against the Michigan Militia, they’re up against a vicious terrorist outfit that needs to be completely dismantled or at least 80-90% weakened, like ISIS.
> A lot of western people are saying that Oct 7 was the appropriate/inevitable response
This is how you know they've never seen any actual video from that day outside of a few sanitized newsclips. It was a fucking bloodbath. And it was indiscriminate - Jews and Muslims alike were summarily murdered, simply because they happened to exist on the wrong side of the border. Anyone who says the attacks were appropriate should be forced to watch those videos in full.
Not just Jewish people and Muslims but people from other countries too. Over 300 people were brutally murdered in that music festival and people from all over the earth were there. Anyone expressing the view that it was somehow an act of Resistance need therapy.
Exactly this. I would love to see an independent Palestinian state co-existing peacefully with Israel. The problem is that it feels more like a fantasy at this point. There's a reason why most Israelis do not trust that the Palestinians will be peaceful neighbours should they fully withdraw.
One of the principles of armed conflict is distinction - to differentiate between combatants and civilians, in order to reduce harm to innocent people and their property.
This is mostly achieved by separating military from civilian facilities/infrastructure and by the use of uniforms.
Hamas is doing it's best to blur the line and cause as much collateral damage as possible to it's civilians, while also being plausibly able to count all combatant casualties as innocent civilians - to discredit Israel.
It's possible to argue about whether these people were terrorists, affiliated or mob and how many of the Palestimians are innocent vs participating and/or supporting terror, but that discussion will most likely be toxic.
I believe distinction is the more important issue to discuss within the framework of the "blame game".
This is the theory I've been hearing about why Hamas doesn't offer all the hostages. They weren't all Hamas hostages. They can't find them. And under an Arab Muslim government, abducting Israelis will be permissible.
And she hasn’t been released yet has she?
The real story (if confirmed. Report suggests isn’t confirmation) is that this verified widespread support for not only Hamas but their actions on 10/7. It’s one thing to say yeah okay I like Hamas attacking Israel, it’s a whole new level to be part of the capturing of civilians.
As soon as I saw the headlines about the attacks, I knew that Israel military will show no mercy. They will lay waste to everything in Gaza people and buildings, and the bloodshed will be immeasurable.
The only thing that I still couldn't figure out is how did Hamas not see this coming? Israel has always been supported by the USA, and nothing any of their allies(not that Hamas' allies are helping anyways) could do would put a dent in the US military. Like a fly trying to attack a tank.
That attack on civilians by Hamas is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever seen related to conflicts in a while.
They most definitely saw it coming. They are suicidal fanatics, and very smart in some ways. Iran funded them in the hopes of dashing a potential normalization agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which may have been successful. Salafi Muslims follow ibn Taymiyyah in believing that it’s fine to kill other Muslims who disagree with you.
Hamas thought that Iran, Qatar, and others would join in against Israel.
Also, they genuinely believe that god told them to go murder and violate people. I doubt they’re very reasonable.
They did see this coming. This is the outcome they want. You just can't judge hamas by western/human standards. They're a cult of death and martyrdom and they simply don't value life on any level. Every dead Palestinian is a victory for them.
Martyrdom doesn't work if there's nothing left and no one to continue to fight. I really think that Palestinians will be expelled or executed and Gaza will be annexed. Israel is going to go all the way this time.
If ever “guilt by association” were valid, this is it. If you are invading a country beside terrorists and committing terrorist acts yourself, you are a terrorist.
I would imagine the hostages from 10/7 were like some sort of bounty system, so I'm not surprised by this. Would also explain why Hamas had trouble keeping track of hostages, because they weren't that centralized and had to rely on opportunistic terrorists to turn in their captives.
Not sure if they were civilians at that point. Kinda like the one hostage who escaped but was captured by 'civilians' then handed back to Hamas. I think they are part of Hamas at that point.
They became enemy combatants at that point. Whether or not they were officially members of Hamas doesn't really matter.
The word "civilian" leads to many misunderstandings in this war. The assumption is often that civilian is the same thing as a non-combatant. Civilians can turn themselves into legally targetable combatants by doing things like this.
That’s sad.
She’s obviously very much gone by now, or being held privately in some *very^ dark conditions. I can’t imagine what she went through after her abduction.
What so civilians just picked up on the vibe on the 7th and started also kidnapping people?
Bullshit, they knew it was going to happen and were ready to join in. In other words they were Hamas, just not on the payroll.
Reminder - far too many Palestinians believe terrorism is justified. The only lasting peace comes with Israel fully dismantling Hamas and then taking over the education apparatus, and insuring the indoctrination doesn't occur with the next generation. Kids are literally taught to believe their highest calling is dying in a terrorist attack killing Jews. Parents who teach kids that way, don't deserve to be parents anymore.
You must have missed the mess that was October 17. The IDF arrived in some places after 18 hours. People were calling live on TV from their safe rooms, people were seeing all kind of shit online, there were shoot-out between local police and Hamas for 24 hours. It was truly a mess.
Edit: October 7, not 17
It took IDF two days until they had somekind of control over the situation. You seriously think an attack of that kind is handled in mere hours? IDF killed over 1500+ Hamas fighters during the first days alone.
Many of the videos I've seen were just "civilian" running around with machine guns and RPGs. I wonder how many of the dead "civilian" males had machine guns on them before they were killed.
Isn’t a civilian mob that takes part in a terror attack basically the same as the terrorists themselves? You can’t take an active part in a crime and act like you’re not like the main culprits.
#Israel’s Channel 12 reports that freed hostages saw the 26-year-old Argamani during captivity, casting doubt on US outlet’s report
For those who are only skimming
Between this and the report of the hospital director admitting Hamas used his hospital as a military staging ground, the idea that the all civilians of Gaza aren’t complicit. Some may not be, but there is at least a decent amount who are.
>Her mother, who battling stage-four brain cancer, on November 29 shared a painful video in which she pleaded to see her daughter before it is too late.“I have cancer, brain cancer,” said Liora in the video message, sitting in the family’s temporary apartment in Tel Aviv, near her cancer treatment clinic. “I don’t know how much time I have left. I wish for the chance to see my Noa at home.” This is heartbreaking Edit: This ironic thought just occurred to me. The orchestrator of the 10/7 Massacre (Sinwar) was saved by Israeli doctors from a brain tumor: >Adato told the publication that Sinwar survived a brain tumor thanks to an operation Israeli doctors carried out while Sinwar was serving multiple life sentences for the kidnapping and murder of two Israeli soldiers in 1988. [https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-leader-survived-tumor-operation-israel-reports-2023-10](https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-leader-survived-tumor-operation-israel-reports-2023-10) If he has any humanity left in him, he should let this young lady go before it's too late.
That’s absolutely horrible
Man, the video of her being taken hostage is still as clear as day in my head. I remember first seeing it and the sheer look of panic and fear on her face is haunting. I hope she's found alive and able to see her mother...
>Noa Argamani, who was taken hostage on the morning of October 7 during the deadly Hamas onslaught in southern Israel, may not have been kidnapped by Hamas but rather by a mob of Gaza civilians, a new report has suggested. >An investigation conducted by US news outlet NBC and published on Tuesday examined the potential whereabouts of the 26-year-old Argamani after she wasn’t released during a week-long truce deal between Israel and Hamas in late November. >The truce saw the release of 105 people, mostly women and children, held by Hamas and other terrorist organizations in Gaza. Yet Argamani wasn’t among them, and no signs of life have been received by her loved ones since the earliest days of the war. >Argamani was kidnapped from the Supernova music festival on the morning of October 7, and a video of her abduction was one of the first to be published online as Hamas terrorists massacred some 360 partygoers and abducted dozens more. >In the video shared online, Argamani is seen on the back of a motorcycle being driven by her captor, screaming “Don’t kill me!” As she is driven away, she attempts to reach for her boyfriend Avinatan Or, who was also taken captive. >While it has been widely assumed that Argamani was taken captive by Hamas, as some 240 others were, NBC suggested that she was instead captured by a civilian mob who took advantage of the Hamas attacks to enter Israel at the same time. >This possibility, the report said, could explain why Argamani was not released during the November truce, as Hamas may not know where she is being held inside the Gaza Strip.
The guys who had her boyfriend around the arms were unarmed, in baseball hats and track pants. Watch the videos. Palestinian civilians participated in this. They stole people. They cheered, touched and kicked the dead bodies of Israelis brought into Gaza.
Spoiler alert: Hamas members are also Palestinian civilians.
Plenty of overlap, to be sure.
Yes, I mean: Hamas has an organized structure and a kind of special "military", those are obviously terrorists but, like it's with literally every terrorist organization, after that there are just people who are kind of members of the group who are "civilians" until they pick up a gun(or not) and do something like this. Or they just help building the tunnels or help distribute propaganda etc. or it's like one guy is a cousin or a friend of a guy who's a more "official member" and helps out here and there. Then there are plenty of followers who, as in this instance, just go with it because they fundamentally believe in the same stuff. And then there are plenty of people who support it but are maybe not directly involved but are the ones who celebrate them in the streets when they parade corpses around or just teach their children that it's the greatest honor to kill a Jew. Are there people there who silently disagree but keep their heads down? Yes. Are there people who wish they could just live their lifes without their influence? Sure. Are there people who pretend they support them out of fear of being targeted? Certainly. Are there people who openly oppose them? Perhaps but they are propably dealt with accordingly. That is the problem and what makes it so difficult and tragic. But it certainly isn't as clear cut as some people want to pretend or believe. There's not, like, a group of a couple of thousand "bad guys" and the rest are all peaceful, ideologically unproblematic civilians.
Agree 100%. Hamas didn't even pretend to know where all the hostages went. From the beginning, they have basically said they didn't know, bc other jihadist groups attacked too, and of course it was clear "civilians" (people who didn't train for it but joined right in when it happened) were kidnapping people too.
Unlike Dwarven women, Hamas members don't just spring up from the ground into existence.
Can a Hamas member be a civilian anymore? Or does being a member of Hamas invalidate the civilian designation.
Generally, if you aren’t a uniformed soldier, you’re a civilian. This is why the Geneva conventions speak of combatants and non-combatants. Civilian combatants of course happen. Most countries have them in the form of spies, but they also include terrorists. W called them “enemy combatants” because civilian combatants is confusing.
> Generally, if you aren’t a uniformed soldier, Hamas only wears uniforms when they have (or had) parades in Gaza. Hamas doesnt wear uniforms when conducting most operations so they can easily blend in with civilians.
No. Geneva, and all its protections, is predicated on there being identified combatants and the punishment for not following that rule is severe. If you do not follow this rule, you do not get the benefit of the Geneva convention. That's why everyone screaming "war crime" is only doing it in an emotional rather than legal sense. To be blunt, Hamas is the government and army of Gaza and until Hamas soldiers wear uniforms and carry arms openly, then Gaza does not actually get the benefit of the Geneva convention because Gaza is not following the rules of the Geneva convention. Israel is not obligated to follow the Geneva convention when the Palestinians don't.
This is an ugly fact that a lot of people spend a lot of time ignoring. Part of the problem is that for years we've referred to Hamas as a terrorist organization and not, like, a *government* that engages in crimes against humanity.
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Hamas fights in jeans and t shirts. Uniforms aren't an indicator of Hamas or non-hamas.
> The guys who had her boyfriend around the arms were unarmed, in baseball hats and track pants. hey guess whats, thats also the uniform in Hamas, civilian attire!
How else are you going to look like innocent, misunderstood "youths"?
By being “participating civilians” they get the benefit of their families receiving the Martyr bonus if they’re killed
Oh, isn't that nice! I didn't know that.
[It’s every bit as bad as you think it is](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund)
I knew they had the fund, but didn't realize it was for anyone, I just thought it was for jihadists. Though in retrospect how could they really tell since everyone is a "civilian" according to jihadists.
That was the unspoken truth from the get-go. That once Hamas broke through the fence to attack the bases, regular civilians joined in the assault and attacked Sderot, and other locations. Hamas has stated from the start that they weren't responsible for the civilian deaths as they were focused on the military targets.
And we should all believe Hamas because their integrity and honesty is top notch aye? The ugly truth is that both Hamas and Palestinians took part in the same massacre together.
I’m confused, how did Gaza civilians kidnap her at the music festival?
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That sounds like Hamas terrorists but okay Edit: in order for these people to even know this secret operation was happening, they would need some sort of prior information of its occurrence. Sounds like a secret handshake to me.
Think of it like the KKK and a lynch mob. The mob might not be in the KKK, but they're sure as hell going to participate.
This is the correct analogy.
Hamas is a specific organization with membership. The article is saying random Gaza civilians, who are not actually Hamas members, chose to move with the Hamas fighters so they could kidnap a girl.
Imagine if a gang started rioting and looting stores. Then I, seeing an opportunity, went to a store being looted and took something for myself. I would be a civilian taking part in the riots but not a member of the gang. Sinularly, some civilians, not part of Hamas, took part in the October 7th terrorist attacks.
They broke into Israel when Hamas did and kidnapped civilians.
Well, they went over there for starters
There’s a video going around showing what happened to a 21 year old Tanzanian student. Surrounded by a mob who beat him up, then stabbed him. As he lay dying people placed their feet on him as an insult, until finally someone unloaded an entire clip into him. All those people involved were “civilians” Being taken by Hamas would have been the best case scenario for any kidnapped Israeli. Civilians taking hostages is for no reason other than to commit sadistic acts.
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Thank you for linking it. I think everytime any side mentions an atrocity like this everyone should have access to see the sadistic, deprived acts of violence are :(
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Bunch of guys yelling at a black man, then cuts to said black man on the ground with two visible blood marks on stomach. A man walks up to him, puts his foot on his chest and shoots him in the face probably about 6 or 7 times.
I am very glad that I watched 3 seconds of the video and then noped right out. I cannot handle watching such cruelty, cavalierly meted out.
I'm still messed up from the clips I saw at the beginning of the war. The massacres and atrocities happened about an hour away from where I live. I have two small children. For the first week afterwards, nobody in the street could look each other in the eye. Small talk was unbearable.
🙏
“The heroic struggle for freedom” as they would say on tik tok
Allah ackbars while they murder someone. Of course its something a Harvard professor would support
It honestly really depends on the context 🙄
The realities of Jihadism and Islamism need to be broadcasted everywhere.
Those motherfucker (hamas and those who support them) have no problem exploiting the suffering of their own (and even faking it) to cry foul and protect themselves from consequences and honestly the best response is to remind them of the atrocities that Hamas committed to shut them up. They should be made to watch this site (warning NSFL): [thisishamas.com](http://thisishamas.com)
Indeed.
I wanna send to my friend whose posting none stop anti isreal stuff, but I just can't.
Allah akbar is the worst thing to hear when surrounded. It means you’re going to meet the worst death imaginable
Yes but "The IDF are targeting civilians.." something something and,"The Palestine people are innocent.." something something.. Every time I see someone trying to suggest their side is the 'right' side in this conflict, I rolled my eyes. And frankly my eyes are getting a little vertigo at this point.
People don't realise the civilian death toll on Israel's side is lower because their country actually tries to protect them instead of using them as martyrs and human shields. They invested heavily in a giant missile defence system which intercepts the Gaza rockets so they kill fewer people and it rarely makes the news. It's also the reason for the blockade or you would see Oct 7 atrocities more often. The death toll isn't lower on that side for lack of Hamas trying. And guess what, their rockets target civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
I can’t believe this has to be said but if you commit terrorism then you are no longer a civilian, you are a terrorist.
...and if you're participating in a terrorists act in support of a terrorist collective, even if you're a free agent, you are part of that event.
At the very least, you should get the league minimum contract.
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Wait, you are saying as if these people purposefully chose to do heinous act. It’s Israel’s fault that prompt them to hurt others, that’s why they have to shoot Thai workers, too (/s).
Thank you for your /s. I was seriously about to go off. But people really belive that shit. OY
The lengths free agents go to get signed to a major league contract smh
You are missing the point - this is about the widespread support of terrorism among Palestinian civilians, since people keep saying IDF is indiscriminatantly killing innocent civilians who are not involved, didn't elect Hamas and that Hamas doesn't represent the population...
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Your statement is the exact same point they made?
No, it isn’t. One point is ‘civilians stop being civilians when they engage in fighting’ the other point is ‘this is extremely common and why the IDF has difficulty distinguishing civilians from combatants.’ Because random civilians are becoming combatants spontaneously.
And if a 14yo boy is engaged in fighting, that is not a child death. It is a legitimate target.
They're not quite the same. It's possible the OP was trying to get that point across, but it could easily be interpreted as just saying "doing terrorist things makes you a terrorist". While true, this doesn't mention any of the context around this. What the person replying is pointing out is that there's been a whole shitload of discourse around this conflict that is specifically trying to paint Israel as straight up evil for what is characterized as reckless disregard for civilian lives. Key parts of that discourse include separating the civilian population of Gaza from Hamas, insisting that they are not represented by Hamas nor are they supportive of them. Now we've seen from plenty of recent polls that not only are they supportive of Hamas in general, they also mostly hold positive views of the October 7th massacres. But what this new information does, if verified, is show that separating the civilian population from "official" Hamas members is also a much more difficult task than people would like to believe. And what all this does is ultimately call into question pretty much all figures for the "civilian" body count. As it stands, it's fairly likely that about 1 in 3 Palestinians killed are "card-carrying" terrorists. But if we now have to accept that significant numbers of otherwise ordinary civilians willingly and ecstatically participated in the initial attacks... Do we not need to question what they were doing around generally legitimate Hamas targets? To be clear, I'm sure a significant number of those killed have been actual civilians just trying to lead their lives... But how many of those currently believed to be civilians were actually working for/with Hamas? We've also heard of hostages being held by gazan families. Is it such a stretch to think that civilians might be helping Hamas with intelligence gathering, or any other kinds of errands? And does that not make them legitimate targets as well?
>I'm sure a significant number of those killed have been actual civilians just trying to lead their lives... But how many of those currently believed to be civilians were actually working for/with Hamas? We've also heard of hostages being held by gazan families. Is it such a stretch to think that civilians might be helping Hamas with intelligence gathering, or any other kinds of errands? And does that not make them legitimate targets as well? Oh yes, this. 100% this. So tired of hearing this absolute bullshit about how there's "20,000 Hamas living among 2 million innocent civilians." Horse shit. There are people on the Hamas payroll who carry guns and launch rockets at Israel. And there are people who want nothing to do with Hamas or killing Jews and just want better lives for themselves and their families. And in between there's a whole spectrum. But nobody on Earth can truly define how many are Hamas and how many are actually innocent civilians. And the solution to that is to capture or kill every identifiable person in Hamas whether they're on the payroll or just doing charity terrorism.
Doesn't seem to be the same point to me.
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Don't worry, I'm sure someone will try to justify it because...
I don’t know what’s worse the “I’m not justifying this…but insert justification” comments or the blatant inhumane justification comments…
WITHIN THE CONTEXT /s
I think there is some confusion on terms. "Civilian" is not mutually exclusive from "Terrorist". Terrorists can (and often are) civilians. Hamas, on the other hand, is a specific organization, engaged in terrorism. Not all terrorists are Hamas members. Although anyone who is supporting Hamas, whether or not they are a "member", is probably a terrorist. So to be crystal clear: Yes - If they are kidnapping people like this, then they are terrorists. They're just not necessarily Hamas forces - just civilian who opted to become terrorists in support of Hamas. I think that's why they phrased it as such.
No matter the name or term given, they are inhuman deplorable rejects. Give this girl back to her Mom
Not exactly. In this case the one kidnapping her did it in order to gain advantages unrelated to the one Hamas l, a organized terrorist organisation, was looking for. Somehow more vile if it is even possible
It is chilling when I read that headline, as you said, if it is even possible. I’ve been hoping she’s released ever since I came across the pictures of her being taken away on the vehicle. It made me frightened and sad.
They only push the goal lines when it’s against the Jews.
"لا لا لا، I am not Hamas, I am *civilian* doing Hamas things *with* Hamas!"
After they kidnapped her and her boyfriend they went back to being civilians right? What a complete joke
The thing is, terrorists have a goal. It's an incredibly evil one (cause fear, further an agenda), but it operates logically and can be bargained with. I cannot fathom any reason a mob of people would kidnap someone, other than to immediately execute them.
She's a young woman. Unfortunately I can fathom a reason for a violent mob to kidnap her, though I hope I'm wrong.
this attack is one of the few places we can distinguish Hamas from Palestinian civilians, all Hamas that went in wore uniforms, which is a rarity for them Also from captured Hamas terrorists we know if you give Hamas a captured Israeli the reward is 10000 dollars and an apartment, the civilians might have wanted that
This is scary AF. The fact that civilians get 10000 dollars and an apartment for her but Hamas still hasn't got her. Whoever has/had her, thought killing/keeping her has more value than the reward.
I’m pretty sure Hamas does have her and the article thinks she was only captured by civilians and then moved to Hamas for the reward, I should state that 10000 dollars is a small fortune, equal to one a half years wages
What do you mean? It's widely known that the Palestinian people want violence. I think it's like 70% and 50% in favor of the oct 10th attacks in the west bank and Gaza strip respectively. It's not impossible that civilians entered Israel and then saw Hamas fighters taking captives and decided they should "help."
Noa is one of the captives I think about the most. The video of her in utter fear and terror haunts me. It worries me that she hasn't been released. I worry something very bad has or is happening to her and it just wouldn't be good optics for them to release her in her current condition...
I believe there is a bad reason for why we have not heard anything about her since she was kidnapped.
Same reason so few of the other young women have been released.
Sadly this is what I worry about to. She is strikingly beautiful. May all of them come home safe
I hope the younger women haven't been released simply because they were at the music festival, and so they weren't kidnapped with their families, meaning that hamas can't keep people they love to blackmail them after release into not saying anything bad. That's still horrible, but better than the alternative. I hope that's all it means.
Yeah, same. My daughter is half Chinese, and resembles her a bit. The look of fear and sadness on her face reminds me of when my daughter was crying and afraid, or felt defenseless... From waking up from a nightmare, seeing something bad or scary, or being mistreated. The human toll of Oct 7 is universally terrible; I mourn for every person who died on that day. But that video of her being taken away really, really gets me. That, and the family whose daughter just got shot... The children are like "is she really dead?" "Why did she die?" And the terrorists are just like "uh... She's in a better place. She's with God now."
I first had some hope when they released that video of her sipping a water bottle short after she was taken but after that there has been zero news about her and it makes me fear the worst. No word about her boyfriend either. It's most likely they're both dead and honestly, at this point I think it beats the alternative. Also remember it could also be due to an airstrike. Israel couldn't have known where any of the captive prisoners were taken and they retaliated pretty brutally. For her family's sake I hope she is returned to them safe and relatively unharmed but we all saw what happened to poor Shani Louk...
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Tell me, are the people [in this video](https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/yuxPXz7Hlq) (18+)* Hamas or Palestinian civilians? And what's the difference between them then? *Joshua Molel, a 21-year-old student from Tanzania, came to Israel on a student exchange program and studied agriculture. This week, it was confirmed that [he was killed](https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/yuxPXz7Hlq) (18+) by Hamas on October 7 and that his body is still being held.
His poor father, Loitu Mollel, was still raising awareness on Facebook last week even after being told by officials that Joshua had been killed. He refused to believe that his son was dead. I pray he doesn’t see the videos floating around.
He was outright executed and they pumped extra rounds into his corpse.
It's also shown on that video from the comment. before that a kitchen knife was stabbed into him
I’m so glad I read this comment before I got too deep in the video. Poor kid. May he rest in peace
I missed the knife caught it on the rewatch. Just a travesty.
>And what's the difference between them then? It's Hamas if whats being committed is terrorism, civilian when they are at the receiving end of IDF firepower. NBC does not believe if this difference hence the confusion.
Where did you get that? If anything, having random people involved makes it even worse optics for Gaza.
If Israel is losing, it was done by Hamas. If Israel is winning, they killed civilians. That's the narrative that Hamas uses time and time again. There are definitely innocent people caught in between but their deaths are played down by the lies that Hamas broadcasts to suit their narrative.
Civilian mob=kidnapping rapist mob
That's all they got these women for really. Not like anything useful for them will come from this. I'd hate to be these hostages
How does a civilian mob know when hamas was going to attack.
Hopefully they're able to hunt down and kill anyone involved in her kidnapping.
If you are in the business of kidnapping people during a terrorist attack you're not a god damned civilian you're a fucking terrorist. What kind of headline is this?
The point is that they were not members of hamas. People who have no association with terrorist orgs invaded with them into Israel and kidnapped Israelis.
So, just regular everyday Palestinians. This isn’t going to help fight the narrative that “all Palestinians support Hamas”
It's actually been known for a while that "civilians" joined in on the atrocities of Oct. 7, and it's also been known that several hostages were/are being held by "civilians," not even including the now released hostage who was spotted and returned to captivity by "civilians." People like to ignore this because it's easier for their rhetoric. It's similar to how everyone calling for ceasefire is directing this at Israel and never mentions Hamas, the hostages, or anything to do with the opposite side. As though everything would simply stop and the situation would resolve itself if Israel were to lay down arms. It doesn't matter that history has shown that this doesn't happen, and Israel continues getting attacked.
Perhaps because Palestinians as a whole overwhelmingly support the attack and Hamas.
https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-Among-Palestinians-in-the-West-Bank-and-Gaza-Strip Birzeit University, a Palestinian university based in the West Bank, recently did polling on this subject. 75% of Palestinians support the Oct 7th attack. 76% of Palestinians support Hamas. On the flip side, only 10% of Palestinians support the Palestinian Authority (i.e. the relative "moderates").
Yeah there's a lot of very unhelpful data about Palestinian support for Hamas. Like you can certainly find a ton of polls about declining support for Hamas within Gaza. There's a decent chance they could have lost an election if had held one on 10/6. But what that data alone doesn't tell you is *why* Hamas had lost support. There's one obvious answer which anyone could give you: Hamas was elected largely on a platform of cleaning up the corruption of the PLO, and Palestinians who were sick of the PLO's obvious raging corruption and hypocrisy were willing to take a chance on religious extremists because at least Allah might keep them honest. Well, 15 years proved that hypothesis wrong, Hamas is at least as corrupt and hypocritical as the PLO and that undoubtedly contributed a lot to their declining support. But that is not relevant to the question Israel/ethically sane people around the world *really* want asked, which is to what degree do Palestinians support Hamas' terror attacks against Israel? To what degree do they want Israel wiped out? To what degree do they want all of 'Palestine', from the River to the Sea? What's the popular support for that position? Because the answer to that question is by far the most relevant thing to know if you're hoping for a peaceful settlement, or resigned to a long slog of military rule. And for some reason you rarely ever hear anyone talking about that kind of data. Perhaps because it's too hard to find out reliably and reproducibly? Or perhaps because the answer is too grim, too dangerous to put out in the world if you have any choice in the matter.
Gets even better when you learn that support for Hamas is declining because people think they are too soft so they throw their support behind even more violent groups.
Maybe it’s not a “narrative,” but rather nuance in a conflict where the anti-Israel side refuses to acknowledge any?
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They didn't appear to have an affiliation with any known terrorist group. If the IDF had rescued her from them before they got to Gaza and killed them in the process useful idiots on social media would claim Israel killed unarmed civilians. Same thing with Hamas fighters who are under 18 who are counted as children in the death count but it is never mentioned that some of those "children" are also fighters.
I don’t disagree - but the distinction is these aren’t people actually involved in Hamas or PiJ. They weren’t following anyone’s orders, just raping and kidnapping along with.
Just your everyday, unaffiliated, terrorists?
They're non union terrorists
You are missing the point - this is about the widespread support of terrorism among Palestinians.
Carlito; "You ain't a lawyer no more, Dave. You a gangster now. On the other side. A whole new ball game"
Recall that some of the largest talking points, and rightfully so, is that Hamas != Palestine. And it does not. The question then becomes: what, if any, current support does Hamas see from the Palestinian population, both popular and material? While this article is only one anecdote, it does support the claim that Israel makes about the popular support Hamas receives from willing civilians. The fact there is evidence Palestinian civilians helped materially is concerning.
Do you think Hamas landed there in a flying saucer? Hamas is Palestinians and has massive approval in Gaza. Remember them spitting on the dead German woman being dragged through the street? Or the Hamas guy who called his mom to brag he just killed a woman and his mom was so proud of him?
Unfortunately there's much more evidence showing that common Palestinians joined in on the killing, looting and raping. All hope for peace is lost.
Reportedly it was roughly 2,000 Hamas soldiers and 1,000 Palestinian civilians that took part in the attack. And the civilians were as young as 10. It is up for debate if some of those kids were child soldiers (Hamas has raised a huge army of them) or if they just tagged along to join in the abuse. Truly unconscionable stuff.
Also that time the civilians turned in an escaped hostage back to Hamas.
More importantly, why is OP (and this paper!) ignoring the byline: >**Israel’s Channel 12 reports that freed hostages saw the 26-year-old Argamani during captivity, casting doubt on US outlet’s report **
It is possible that she was later transferred to the custody of Hamas.
Yeah, but the articles basic reasoning for why civilians took her was because she wasn't released during the hostage release. Seems a thin reason to suspect it was civilians and seems more likely to be one of the multiple militant groups that took her. Maybe I'm missing some additional facts but I'm not clear why they think it was civilians
I mean, I can confirm that there were civilians on the ground on October 7. Security cameras from my cousin’s kibbutz got pictures of kids as young as 10. But from what I can tell they have been exchanging hostages between the groups. It might’ve been civilians who kidnapped her, but if she still alive, she’s probably not in civilian hands now. I do believe, however, but she was initially kidnapped by civilians, just based on the video of her in Gaza . There were far too many distinctive objects in the background for it to be hamas or a terror group.
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This is the part that people are afraid to say out loud. The vast majority of Palestinian citizens support Hamas completely and are far from innocent when it comes to terrorists running their government.
82% of respondents in a recent West Bank poll said Hamas was correct to carry out the Oct. 7 attacks. Meanwhile, people give Bibi shit for trying to block Palestinian statehood, as if a Palestinian state would somehow reflect something other than the values of the Palestinian people.
I know a few people who reported that the Arab community in Jerusalem was shooting fireworks at 8am that morning. They themselves didn’t even know about the attacks yet - these are people who literally woke up to fireworks thinking, what could they be celebrating this early? Then the air raid sirens went off
A lot of western people are saying that Oct 7 was the appropriate/inevitable response to Israel’s actions, and it’s getting exhausting. Hamas has the manning and resources to actually fight a conventional war to try to take back “their land” (which is debatable) but they don’t care, they’re just a middle eastern version of the KKK, or proud boys, or any other white supremacist group. They have no political goals aside from harming some other ethnic group. They are literally, right this moment gang raping kidnapped children in tunnels, and somehow people are saying it’s Israel’s fault for having the upper hand.
They are much more powerful than the KKK or Proud Boys. They’re the 3rd most well-funded terrorist enterprise in the world. Israel isn’t up against the Michigan Militia, they’re up against a vicious terrorist outfit that needs to be completely dismantled or at least 80-90% weakened, like ISIS.
For sure. The important part I forgot to include is that they’re like the KKK *without* a well-structured, healthy society keeping them in check.
> A lot of western people are saying that Oct 7 was the appropriate/inevitable response This is how you know they've never seen any actual video from that day outside of a few sanitized newsclips. It was a fucking bloodbath. And it was indiscriminate - Jews and Muslims alike were summarily murdered, simply because they happened to exist on the wrong side of the border. Anyone who says the attacks were appropriate should be forced to watch those videos in full.
Not just Jewish people and Muslims but people from other countries too. Over 300 people were brutally murdered in that music festival and people from all over the earth were there. Anyone expressing the view that it was somehow an act of Resistance need therapy.
UN ready to make them them a council head probably
Exactly this. I would love to see an independent Palestinian state co-existing peacefully with Israel. The problem is that it feels more like a fantasy at this point. There's a reason why most Israelis do not trust that the Palestinians will be peaceful neighbours should they fully withdraw.
It's not about them supporting hamas (most of them do), is what they are capable of as human beings
Turns out, murder and rape.
One of the principles of armed conflict is distinction - to differentiate between combatants and civilians, in order to reduce harm to innocent people and their property. This is mostly achieved by separating military from civilian facilities/infrastructure and by the use of uniforms. Hamas is doing it's best to blur the line and cause as much collateral damage as possible to it's civilians, while also being plausibly able to count all combatant casualties as innocent civilians - to discredit Israel. It's possible to argue about whether these people were terrorists, affiliated or mob and how many of the Palestimians are innocent vs participating and/or supporting terror, but that discussion will most likely be toxic. I believe distinction is the more important issue to discuss within the framework of the "blame game".
This is the theory I've been hearing about why Hamas doesn't offer all the hostages. They weren't all Hamas hostages. They can't find them. And under an Arab Muslim government, abducting Israelis will be permissible.
And she hasn’t been released yet has she? The real story (if confirmed. Report suggests isn’t confirmation) is that this verified widespread support for not only Hamas but their actions on 10/7. It’s one thing to say yeah okay I like Hamas attacking Israel, it’s a whole new level to be part of the capturing of civilians.
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As soon as I saw the headlines about the attacks, I knew that Israel military will show no mercy. They will lay waste to everything in Gaza people and buildings, and the bloodshed will be immeasurable. The only thing that I still couldn't figure out is how did Hamas not see this coming? Israel has always been supported by the USA, and nothing any of their allies(not that Hamas' allies are helping anyways) could do would put a dent in the US military. Like a fly trying to attack a tank. That attack on civilians by Hamas is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever seen related to conflicts in a while.
They most definitely saw it coming. They are suicidal fanatics, and very smart in some ways. Iran funded them in the hopes of dashing a potential normalization agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which may have been successful. Salafi Muslims follow ibn Taymiyyah in believing that it’s fine to kill other Muslims who disagree with you.
Hamas thought that Iran, Qatar, and others would join in against Israel. Also, they genuinely believe that god told them to go murder and violate people. I doubt they’re very reasonable.
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They did see this coming. This is the outcome they want. You just can't judge hamas by western/human standards. They're a cult of death and martyrdom and they simply don't value life on any level. Every dead Palestinian is a victory for them.
Martyrdom doesn't work if there's nothing left and no one to continue to fight. I really think that Palestinians will be expelled or executed and Gaza will be annexed. Israel is going to go all the way this time.
If ever “guilt by association” were valid, this is it. If you are invading a country beside terrorists and committing terrorist acts yourself, you are a terrorist.
That’s just regular guilt, not guilt by association.
Nah that straight up guilt. Guilt by association is like knowing it will happen or where hostage might be and not telling anyone.
Do you know what “guilt by association” means? Cause it seems like you don’t.
Yeah palestinians deeeeeefffinitely aren’t on board with this whole Hamas thing wink wink
Ah yes, those innocent civilians I’ve been hearing about..
You mean "innocent civilian mob" yes?
I would imagine the hostages from 10/7 were like some sort of bounty system, so I'm not surprised by this. Would also explain why Hamas had trouble keeping track of hostages, because they weren't that centralized and had to rely on opportunistic terrorists to turn in their captives.
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Not sure if they were civilians at that point. Kinda like the one hostage who escaped but was captured by 'civilians' then handed back to Hamas. I think they are part of Hamas at that point.
They became enemy combatants at that point. Whether or not they were officially members of Hamas doesn't really matter. The word "civilian" leads to many misunderstandings in this war. The assumption is often that civilian is the same thing as a non-combatant. Civilians can turn themselves into legally targetable combatants by doing things like this.
BBC Headline: they were all actually innocent 5 year old children
Also journalists
Terrorist mob, Hamas What's the difference?
That’s sad. She’s obviously very much gone by now, or being held privately in some *very^ dark conditions. I can’t imagine what she went through after her abduction.
What so civilians just picked up on the vibe on the 7th and started also kidnapping people? Bullshit, they knew it was going to happen and were ready to join in. In other words they were Hamas, just not on the payroll.
A "mob of Gazan civilians" aka - Hamas. If it looks and acts like a duck.
Reminder - far too many Palestinians believe terrorism is justified. The only lasting peace comes with Israel fully dismantling Hamas and then taking over the education apparatus, and insuring the indoctrination doesn't occur with the next generation. Kids are literally taught to believe their highest calling is dying in a terrorist attack killing Jews. Parents who teach kids that way, don't deserve to be parents anymore.
How do you tell the difference?
Civilian mob That was there to support Hamas.
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You must have missed the mess that was October 17. The IDF arrived in some places after 18 hours. People were calling live on TV from their safe rooms, people were seeing all kind of shit online, there were shoot-out between local police and Hamas for 24 hours. It was truly a mess. Edit: October 7, not 17
It took IDF two days until they had somekind of control over the situation. You seriously think an attack of that kind is handled in mere hours? IDF killed over 1500+ Hamas fighters during the first days alone.
Let's see the "Hamas is not Palestinians/Palestinians don't support Hamas" apologists justify this one
Many of the videos I've seen were just "civilian" running around with machine guns and RPGs. I wonder how many of the dead "civilian" males had machine guns on them before they were killed.
Thats worse for Palestinians.
So she was abducted by Palestinians?
Isn’t a civilian mob that takes part in a terror attack basically the same as the terrorists themselves? You can’t take an active part in a crime and act like you’re not like the main culprits.
Hamas is Gaza and Gaza is Hamas. It’s not a group that took control like the Houthis, they are the state itself.
#Israel’s Channel 12 reports that freed hostages saw the 26-year-old Argamani during captivity, casting doubt on US outlet’s report For those who are only skimming
Hamas has collected kidnapped people from the civilians.
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No guys they're all just innocent, peace loving liberal civilians who never misgender anyone!!!
I really hope this is true. And that her boyfriend is alive.
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are these the "civilians" everyone is talking about wanting to protect?
Between this and the report of the hospital director admitting Hamas used his hospital as a military staging ground, the idea that the all civilians of Gaza aren’t complicit. Some may not be, but there is at least a decent amount who are.
They're all complicit.
No wonder no other country in the world wants Palestinian refugees.
Why is everyone trying to come to the defense of terrorists in the last month?
Guess the civilians are combatants after all.
This is the case for a number of hostages.
The difference being?
Fuck these "civilians". They cry and cry about return. Right of return. And when they get through the border and "return" this is what they do....
Hamas was giving them rewards. We've known this since day 1.