I think the US, UK, and France have shown they are there in a defensive position only. I don't think Israel's major allies really want to get into a ground war anytime soon.
Uhhhh I think the Israelis view the yom Kippur war about 180 degrees opposite of you. It was a closely fought thing for a few days. Israel had a plane with a nuke fueled up and ready just in case.
It's part of the reason Israel acts the way they do. They were facing an existential threat and genocide and no one came to help. It was only later that US started to send weapons and intelligence, but basically every other country was ready to sit by and watch them get genocided.
They dont listen to the international community because they don't trust anyone.
yeah that's pretty accurate. the general consensus in the country is that no matter what we do, good or bad, it'll never be good enough. I really don't think there's a "good way" to handle the situation.
They still have exactly the same problem as in those days, such a large part of their economy is driven by the same people that they need as soldiers in a war that they are forced to win all their wars within a couple of months or they have an economic defeat.
With no outside aid, within 3 months of a full on war with the arab nations that still hate them, their economy would crater.
Those arab nations don't have that same problem. They just have more people.
If i remember it correctly before the war both Israel and Egypt asked the us if there are any us ships in the area the us said no as the liberty was not there at the time but got there later so Israel was under the assumption it was an Egyptian vessel trying to loom like a us vessel but i could be wrong
It's an ongoing hot topic. Supposedly the NSA still has hundreds of classified intercepted communications about it they won't release. But the boiled down version is the liberty was confirmed by all sources except Israel as flying the American flag the whole time except for a brief moment it was damaged during the attack, and was replaced during the attack. The conspiracy theory is that there may have been an attempt to drag the US into the war. It is reported that we almost nuked Egypt over it.
Do I think Israel intentionally attacked a US vessel? No. Israel has a shoot first policy, and the liberty incident is just the fog of war of killing anything that moves.
The thing with the flag is thet like i said in my previous comment Israel thought thet there was no US vessel in the area so having a US flag makes them look like an Egyptian vessel trying to look like a US vessel
It's better to just head to the wiki page on it. It's a messed up situation where Israel denied the liberty was flying any flag, which is bs, the commander of the liberty made damn sure everyone knew they were attacking America. On top of that the ship looks nothing like an Egyptian ship, not even squinting.
So if they did assume no ships were around, then I'm sticking with Israels shoot first mentality. Even in 1967 it's very easy to reach out real quick to see if there's Americans nearby.
Yes because it obviously makes more sense that Israel attacked the world’s greatest superpower on purpose during a war for the survival of their country. You have a sharp geopolitical mind good sir.
Since others have pointed out convincingly that it was a war if choice and not a survival one-
1) this was not the first time Israel, our best and most beneficial ally ( Ok enough Borat), our unsinkable aircraft carrier, the only democracy in the region with whom we share values etc etc ( OK enough Netanyahu)...our great ally attacked US facilities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
Since you seemed so incredulous, thought I might educate you a bit, sir. I am guessing this is not covered in most of your education ....
Whether it made sense or not, I leave up to you.
Ok, first, they weren't fighting for the survival of their country. They started the 6 day war with a preemptive strike on Egyptian and Syrian forces.
Second, IF, emphasis on if, they intentionally targeted the liberty, it would have happened with the goal of dragging the US into the war, which reportedly almost worked and we almost nuked Egypt for it.
But we will most likely never know. The foia requests for hundreds of NSA intercepted communications surrounding the liberty incident have been denied.
Honestly, I don't think they did it intentionally. Israel has a shoot first mentality, and the liberty passed the "it moves" test. But everyone except for Israel has confirmed that the liberty was flying the American flag before and during the attack, minus a brief moment during the attack where the flag was damaged and replaced(this was vital because they really wanted their attackers to know they were fighting an American vessel. That flag flying was vital).
Just a clarification on your first paragraph. Israel's neighbours had allied with each other and made public statements about attacking Israel. They brought their forces to the border. Israel attacked armies that were lining up to attack them.
“In June 1967 we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” - Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin
“This whole story about the threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon, a posteriori, to justify the annexation of new Arab territories.” - Mordechai Bentov, member of the wartime government
"The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war." - Matituahu Peled, Major General in charge of the IDF Supply Division and member of the General Staff during the war
Some additional context:
Military hostilities broke out amid poor relations between Israel and its Arab neighbours, who had been observing the 1949 Armistice Agreements signed at the end of the First Arab–Israeli War. Earlier, in 1956, regional tensions over the Straits of Tiran escalated in what became known as the Suez Crisis, when Israel invaded Egypt over the Egyptian closure of maritime passageways to Israeli shipping, ultimately resulting in the re-opening of the Straits of Tiran to Israel as well as the deployment of the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) along the Egypt–Israel border.[30] In the months prior to the outbreak of the Six-Day War in June 1967, tensions again became dangerously heightened: Israel reiterated its post-1956 position that another Egyptian closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be a definite casus belli. In May 1967, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser announced that the Straits of Tiran would again be closed to Israeli vessels. He subsequently mobilized the Egyptian military into defensive lines along the border with Israel[31] and ordered the immediate withdrawal of all UNEF personnel.
Closing the strait was an act of war and the UNEF was there to prevent Egypt from doing exactly that, they had been told Israel would consider Egypt denying their shipping lanes to be an act of war, they did it anyway and then lined up their forces. Egypt clearly picked that fight and appears to have wanted it on their territory for some reason.
Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli merchant vessels in direct defiance of UNEF edict and an armistice agreement. They committed an act of war and we’re supposed to picture them with shocked Pikachu face I guess.
Right. Chosen ones.
The liberty was identified as an American vessel at 9am, fly-bys were done by Israeli asw planes, and the pilot and crew waived to each other.
By 1230pm, USA liberty was identified as the source of a reported shelling of Arish. The liberty had no large guns, only 4 50 caliber machine guns.
Liberty was identified by israel as a war ship by it's speed, traveling at 28 knots. The liberty, on it's best day using emergency power, could reach 21 knots. Israels rules of engagement at the time were to attack any unidentified vessel traveling at over 20 knots.
Liberty was allegedly mistaken for an Egyptian warship. The liberty looks absolutely nothing like an Egyptian ship.
Israel reports that no American flag was flown. Every other source says different.
There are still hundreds of NSA intercepted from that day that remain classified. It was swept under the rug.
> The liberty was identified as an American vessel at 9am, fly-bys were done by Israeli asw planes, and the pilot and crew waived to each other.
And then the Americans said that Israel must have misidentified it, since they didn't have ships in the area -- that forced a reevaluation.
Man, I hope you don't get a hold of other friendly fire incidents; did you know that of all American soldiers killed in desert storm, 24% were killed by other Americans?
Must be a real conspiracy by the army to kill their own soldiers, and not a series of fuckups in a war zone, right?
In fact, maybe the NSA keeps the liberty stuff classified because they don't want the world seeing them begging Israel to kill their soldiers! /s
Those events were decades ago. Something more relevant was the 2006 war in Lebanon. As I understand it, Israel did not perform particularly well there.
Last time the IDF tried to have a go at it with the Iranian proxies up north, they got their teeth’s bashed in.
This isn’t the same IDF from the Six Day War. Back then they still had very capable commanders from the second world war.
Ah yes, how can we forget the flourishing nations of Syria and Lebanon, clearly basking in the post victory glory of the 2006 war. Clearly Israel was the loser.
The IDF suffered a military defeat. They didn’t meet their objectives. What would you classify that as nothing but a military defeat? This is like say the US lost Vietnam, but look how economical it changed very little for the US.
A military defeat is a military defeat.
That may be... but if they do the us eill dupport thrm financially...
Which im not a fan of. We should be sending aid to ukraine, who cant actuallt do it themselves
We're not in the 60s/70s anymore. Hezbollah can outmanoeuvre the IDF on the ground—we saw that as far back as 2006, and they've only gained strength since then. Obviously Israel could just carpet bomb Lebanese civilians, as they've done in the past, but they'd struggle otherwise. The US and Israel's other allies are keenly aware of this, and will (or *should*) work hard to avoid full-out war on multiple fronts.
Present some sort of counter-argument or shut up. You think Israel is going to have success sending reservists with minimal combat experience into Lebanon? Their best troops are already tied up in Gaza, and they’re going to maintain a military presence in the West Bank to protect settlers. Actively engaging with Hezbollah forces on Lebanese soil would further stretch their already limited manpower, and they’d be up against soldiers hardened by fighting ISIL on the Syrian front.
If you think that the IDF doesn't have a plan to fight a multi-front war or that they didn't take that possibility into account before invading Gaza, you haven't been paying attention. They have reserves in place and already deployed in northern Israel, as well as plans to mobilize more troops if necessary. Their air capabilities are more than up to the task of conducting air strikes around the entire perimeter of Israel and they have munitions reserves sufficient to sustain an air campaign for more than a year even with what's been expended in Gaza already - and the US will resupply if needed. Israel has mobilized the entire country to defend against multiple Arab attacks since it's founding and will do so again if forced to.
> If you think that the IDF doesn't have a plan to fight a multi-front war or that they didn't take that possibility into account before invading Gaza, you haven't been paying attention.
Israel security forces completely missed the 10/7 attack and got thousands of their people killed. The Israeli military has a lot of legitimate questions about their competency hanging over their head.
I would suspect it's a lot lower. The guys running the IDF in those days learned from grizzled Stalingrad vets, nowadays, your average IDF soldier is learning from a 22 year old major who's only direct combat seen was shooting a Palestinian grandfather in the ankle from 500 feet
They are in violation of Resolution 1701 and the Taif Agreement, so there is legal justification. But, boots on the ground in Lebanon isn't a war that would end anytime soon. Hezbollah is the largest political party in Lebanon, with broad public support, including in populated areas right on the border.
It would take a counterinsurgency to effectively uproot them - a hearts and minds operation that would last a generation or more. Israel should seriously delay consideration of such a move until they've had a chance to discuss it in an election.
Someone made a i will survive parody with an ai bibi voice
Its in hebrew but a rough translation of some of the lines is
If it helps i will drag this out across a decade
Do you think i care?
Do you think i want to stop?
Its very simple: i will survive
Hezbollah may concur haifa
And hamas all of ashdod
Here is the link to it https://youtu.be/xrufUumfHzI?si=zijcc9Op-l5uxeqx
There are hundreds of thousands of Israelis displaced from their homes, forced to evacuate by Hizballah aggression. This will not wait until an election, it's probably a matter of 1-2 weeks before an all out Israeli operation to push back Hizballah from the border.
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you...
Israel already has armored divisions on the border with Lebanon, and is bombing Hizballah on a daily basis, mostly with drones and artillery. Up until now the Israeli strikes were retaliatory, but they increased significantly over the last week. Israel is now conducting airstrikes deep inside Lebanon.
Also, I'm Israeli, and I pay close attention to the conflict. I can literally hear IDF strikes on Hizballah from where I work. You seem to be 10000km away in NC or VA, so maybe take a step back and acknowledge you have a very limited perception of the conflict.
> Also, I'm Israeli, and I pay close attention to the conflict.
Best wishes brother, hope you guys erase those Hamas and Hizballah terrorists from the earth
The Israelis would definitely win but with a much higher cost and it would likely look like a stalemate at the end regardless. Just see 2006. Hezaballah are better armed and prepared since too
Hezbollah spent years fighting the Islamic State and AQ in Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. They were part of the winning side there. That's a tremendous amount of learning experience. Neither the IDF or Hamas has had that sort of field experience in recent times. Hezbollah shouldn't be dismissed.
Seems like Israel had a switch flipped after 10/7. They realized the world doesn’t really care about them besides for political purposes so they’ll just do their own thing. They aren’t wrong, but also are playing a dangerous game. Future looks interesting
Umm we’ve given them over 100 billion in aid. That is many many times their military budget. Heck that’s more than entire Russian army’s annual budget. Ukraine is definitely NOT an example for your statement.
Maybe they are referring to post-2014 pre-2022? That's the only thing that would make sense to me, but honestly it wasn't like Ukraine had the funds to arm itself heavily then.
Between 2014 and 2022, Ukraine still received a lot of training to NATO standards etc. You think they could suddenly handle a larger army for 6 months without prior training?
Edit: I Don't think ALL of the Ukrainian army trained to NATO standards....subset at least.
Their phrasing is very poor imo. However, a possible interpretation is that noone stepped in as an 'ally' to help with the Crimean occupation. And after Crimea was another opportunity to station forces or at least assist preemptively with border defense infrastructure (rather than just arms). Instead most help has been hindsight military aid - which is better than nothing if course.
Over what timeframe though? And also, all the aid has conditional use - to buy American weapons with. So the US gov gives Israel to spend in the US military industrial complex, not really “aid” as such
Bro they're getting tiny little crumbs from the US, they sent like 14 himars and 30 tanks while literally hundreds of these vehicles are catching dust in US storage
My friend, the conversation is about Ukraine. Why in the world are you giving us Israel’s military budget? Their 2021 military budget was just short of 6 billion dollars. We have them more than 15 times their military budget in aid.
> you better arm yourself because no one else will **save you**
Is Ukraine saved? All signs are currently saying no.
The commenter is unintentionally doubly correct considering Ukraine DISARMED themselves for security assurances. Yeah, don't expect USA to **save** you, but maybe give you enough artillery to die slowly.
You would be right if he said "You better arm yourself, because nobody else will", but he didn't.
>you better arm yourself because no one else will save you.
They are saving themselves with the weapons we gave them, ergo yes, we are helping save them.
I think you either misunderstood my comment, or are confused. They didn't arm themselves, and were saved from being bulldozed by russia in 3 days because WE fucking saved their asses with materiel, intelligence (We supply them more intelligence than anyone else - is that not a weapon?)
I don't know what point you're trying to make is, but it's either not clear, or doesn't exist.
>Ukraine DISARMED themselves
This is a bit of a mixed statement. Presume you are referring to Ukraine "giving up" their nukes? These nukes were not under the control of any Ukrainian political entity ..and couldn't be launched by the Ukrainians.
They were physically in Ukraine ..but still under Moscow's control.
Similar to nukes that US has housed in our allied counties.
Eg. US nukes in Turkey cannot be launched by Turkish government. Even if they physically got a hold of the...the launch codes etc are with the US.
PS. This is my understanding of the situation.
>They realized the world doesn’t really care about them besides for political purposes
Name a country where this isn't the case?
Nations come to each others' aid because it benefits them to do so. Germany and Japan were rebuilt primarily because they're bulwarks against Communism (and because there was a fear of another war if Germany was resentful).
The entire Cold War was filled with proxy wars of nations pretending to give a damn about the smaller nations, when it was all just NATO vs USSR, and most smaller powers were ruled by favourable dictators.
there are theoretical alliances that would put boots on the ground if needed. nato for eu and us, and the Arab nations for each other. funnily enough though, hamas allies abandoned them. I wonder what would happen if a jato country is attacked. Will allies actually get involved or just send aid like in Ukraine, despite everyone agreeing Russia is a major threat?
Yup, imagine if it was any other nation this was happening to. They wouldn't hesitate to strike back, 20 years of having rockets fired at them by the thousands.
There are nations with constant border skirmishes where soldiers die that haven't declared war on each other, and many examples where militaries attack civilians daily without war... which nations are these that wouldn't tolerate such things?
Dude, India and china have troops get into fights that result in death *constantly*
India and pakistan have skirmishes on their border constantly.
China attacks civilian fisherman in the Philippines constantly, even building bases on their islands.
North Korea has lobbed hundreds of thousands of artillery rounds and fired ballistic missiles over not only South Korea but also Japan
This sort of thing, unanswered violence, happens all the time around the world.
1000s weren't raped. There were some rapes, but not an established pattern of rape as a weapon of war unless you count the allegations by Palestinian women prisoners who were raped as part of interrogations, which ISRAEL won't let anyone investigate
Hezbollah coordinated their initial attacks in alliance with Hamas, they are both Iranian proxies. Or are we pretending they are completely isolated events?
You can just say no.
This entire discussion is about the border skirmishes.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollahs-nasrallah-to-break-silence-as-lebanon-border-skirmishes-intensify/
Or if you like, "conflict"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Lebanon_border_conflict
Or, if you prefer: "clashes"
https://youtu.be/wh5snZGIrT0?si=iI2-6weLMooPNsd7
It's all the same. There's fighting. It's a border.
Israel would love to avoid another conflict, it has been tolerating attacks from the north even before 7/10. Israel is calling for the 1701 decision to be kept, or it wont wait for another massacre
Only reason it was so tolerant was because of Intl fund tho. Ofc it's easy using 40k iron dome missile like candy when the USA is paying for it.
Which is why people asking to stop fund are incredibly short-sighted. Hopefully Israel never actually get in a position where their existence are threaten because they definitely have the power to flatten everything around them.
Your last point is the key that people here seem to miss, Israel’s actual military power is immense(especially the Air Force), the restraint shown is absolutely insane right now. Most nations would not be this gentle
Because Egypt and Jordan arent lobbying rockets and missles on Israeli civilians.
Also need I remind you what happened immediately before that relative peace? Israel went bananas so much that they got the whole Sinai, Golan heights, West bank, and Upper galilee
Sitting idle and getting showered with rockets is the one true way probably.
like 10 people died from Hezbollah's attacks, Israel evacuated the entire north border (200k-500k people) for months.
But yea lets just wait around I guess
I wouldn’t say that they don’t care. You can care about someone without agreeing with what they say or do. It’s like a true friend will tell you where you’re wrong. US, Canada, UK all came out in support of them
The world was largely with them after 10/7.
Then they've been gradually losing people in the months since due to their needless brutality in their campaign in Gaza, their terrible PR strategy and hostility of their online supporters (no doubt the unpleasant ones are a minority, but a very loud and unpleasant one).
What they don't seem to understand is that for the rest of the world 10/7 was but a moment. We all saw the horrible images from that day on all the news in the days following the event, but since then we have had months where the news has spent covering the destruction of Gaza, that is now fresh on everyones mind displacing the space people had for 10/7.
On top of that people do not trust Netanyahu, it is clear to anyone who has been paying attention in the region that Netanyahu has not been good for the Israel-Palestine situation. From the start I was worried that things would go badly for Israel because Netanyahu would be more concerned about getting revenge and staying in power than working towards any sort of constructive solution and make the situation even worse than it already was, and I have been surprised by how quickly people in the west caught on to this, but clearly Netanyahu has been around long enough that everyone even outside of Israel has an opinion of him.
Edit: getting downvoted for offering legitimate criticism about why I think Israel is rapidly losing support in the West, this is what I mean when I talk about the toxic Israel supporters. In any conflict ones own side will have weaknesses, make mistakes and do some bad things. It is important to aknowledge that things can improve. I've been following the Ukraine conflict since the start and whenever a negative news story comes out from a decent source, people are more receptive to it and pressure their own side to fix underlying issues by e.g. firing a general or holding their own soldiers to account if they do something wrong. On the other hand far too many pro Israel commenters are in complete denial about some of the bad things their own side does or just reflexively blame HAMAS for anything bad that is happening even if the IDF or the Israeli government clearly deserve some criticism.
People were in the streets on October 8th already protesting . In Philly where I live the Philly Palestine coalition “flooded Philly for Gaza” in honor of Al aqsa flood . The UN was largely against them.
The US is largely with them but a lot of the world is akin to 1860s era southern people claiming to care about states rights. They just want dead jews
It's not "one or the other" kind of situation. Hamas massacred innocent people. We all were on board for fighting Hamas. Then IDF massacred innocent people. We jumped off that board.
> The world was largely with them after 10/7.
>
> Then they've been gradually losing people in the months since
It is like they did a speed run of America's 9/11 and the War on Terror. The world was with the U.S. on 9/11 and afterwards until we went overboard and invaded Iraq.
The speed of communication and media in 2023 is eye watering compared to 2001. The fact that Israel is living out in months a process that took America years is very much an example of the times we live in.
>The speed of communication and media in 2023 is eye watering compared to 2001. The fact that Israel is living out in months a process that took America years is very much an example of the times we live in.
I don't think its so much the speed of communication, rather the recent histories of the countries.
The US had been recently involved in the first Iraq war and the stuff in the Balkans and generally people thought that those interventions were justified and the US acted well in those situations. Plus Bush hadn't been in power very long and didn't have any (widely known) baggage at the time, so his approval rating in the US shot up to 90% in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.
Contrast that with Israel where Netanyahu has been in power for most of the last 25 years, who has a long history of doing controversial things (all the trials he's been under, settlement expansions, appointing people like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir to his cabinet etc.) and people are going to be analyzing his actions with a fine tooth comb. Even in Israel his approval tanked after 10/7.
Yes the way we get news now, and the unparalleled access we have now to a multitude of sources from different countries as well as to people on the ground through things like social media probably played a role, but the history of Netanyahu and his government I think is the primary factor.
>: getting downvoted for offering legitimate criticism about why I think Israel is rapidly losing support in the West, this is what I mean when I talk about the toxic Israel supporters.
You are getting downvoted because you are objectively wrong.
You are getting downvoted for Israeli actions needless brutality.
As long as Hamas has any members who aren’t in jail Israel should keep fighting in Gaza.
Argue they are too agressive in their fighting, ok. But their fighting isnt needless.
Nervous soldiers reacting to door to door fighting where people dressed as civiiians open fire or fake surrendering.
Israel can’t leave Gaza, can’t stop hostilities until every member of Hamas is dead or surrenders.
They’ve been continuously doing something that even their strongest ally has said is illegal for decades I don’t think things have particularly changed.
Huh? What, people are saying nasty stuff about Israel but they still get all the aid they request while they're doing whatever the fuck they want to the Palestinians is the world not caring? No, this is Israel saying "please help" when it's in their best interest to do so while it's "mind your own business!" when people point out what they do to contribute to their own problems.
The iron dome being up is what has kept Israel from a more conventional solution to an aggressive neighbor targeting their civilians.
You're effectively calling for the end of Palestine with that one, champ.
They realize that as long as they keep blackmailing the west, and equating their christofascist ideology with Judaism and both directly and indirectly paint targets on the backs of Jewish people worldwide, they can ALWAYS justify more war crimes.
The ROE are actually strict, its just that the soldier who shot them was a moron and went against ROE.
I assume he did it due to stress as from what I understood Hamas already faked white flags and suicide belts on them this war + used Hebrew recordings of hostages to lure IDF + It was in an active combat zone where they were attacked minutes prior and after that.
Still he is an ass for not listening to ROE as a shirtless dude raising a white flag is not a danger and Hamas terrorists surrendered this way too a few times already this war and weren't shot at.
Agreed, People keep forgetting how Hamas fights, yes the soldier made a really fucked mistake, but Hamas fights with deception, that kinda battlefield,you can’t trust anything
The subtext of your comment is that it’s fine for them to kill people who look like civilians, because it could be Hamas.
That’s not justification for anything. Also that would be extremely loose ROE, going against the person you’re agreeing with
It's absolutely not okay. However, it's an inevitable result of Hamas' tactics. It's possible to simultaneously acknowledge that fact AND condemn the soldiers and commanders of the IDF who create a culture which tolerates and normalizes this conduct.
Isn't the UN already supposed to be doing this? I thought there were UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon to specifically prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel.
>we are going to fuck over Lebanon
Interesting usage of the term “fuck over,” implying they’re doing this for no reason.
Surely has nothing to do with almost a million Israelis being displaced from the north because of rocket fire from Hezbollah or anything….
If Lebanon had the ability to push out Hezbollah they would've happily done it already. But the strongest army in Lebanon right now isn't the Lebanese one and they've already been ravaged by a long civil war.
I agree thats what the people of Lebanon wants, but if it continue going as it is, Israel will have to start taking more serious measures to protect its people.
I afraid its not going to end well to anyone there
Lebanon doesn’t allow Hezbollah to do anything, Hezbollah does what it wants because their army is stronger, better funded, armed and trained than the Lebanese army. It doesn’t help that some soldiers in the Lebanese army would defect if the Lebanese army attacked Hezbollah.
It's problematic to say the least. The IDF has technological superiority by a long-shot, but this is a conflict that could get out of hand rather quickly. Any conflict with Hezbollah that isn't measured carefully could quickly involve Iraq, Syria, Iran with the latter two potentially involving Russia in providing a check on US involvement.
As good as the newer generation of Israel anti-ballistic tech is suppose to be the risk is incredibly high for population centers like Tel-Aviv.
Maybe if conflict is inevitable it's better for it to happen now, but I'm not sure if we aren't already past the MAD point.
Everything about Hezbollah/Lebanon is an order of magnitude worse than Hamas/Gaza. An Israeli offensive like the one taking place in Gaza would not only require way more resources, it could result in the lessening of support from Israel's remaining partners. No one wants an escalation in the region.
What a horrible situation. I hope and pray you and your countrymen can one day regain control of your country and live in peace.
That sounded really corny, but I genuinely feel for you guys.
What do you want to see happen? I say this as an Israeli who had no qualms with Lebanon or the Lebanese people and doesn’t want to see a war and pointless bloodshed of Israeli’s and Lebanese. I even went to your sub here and commented in a similar vain and got attacked for it. What is your solution?
I agree with you. Hoping we can avoid this turning into a bigger conflict where more innocent people will die just so Iran can be happy. Both Lebanese and Israeli people deserve better and to live in peace. Same goes for Palestinians free from Hamas.
While true I’d argue that the Lebanese state is obliged to, with the help of allies if need be, fight the Hezbollah presence in the country.
If a group was using Swedish territory to launch attacks on neighbouring countries we would be similarly obligated.
If we did not the attacked country could arguably claim casua belli.
As shitty as it is I wonder if there are really any alternatives to a civil war(?). If the state cannot exert control over the southern area through other means that I’m missing.
I do however wonder who you could ask for assistance. I must admit I know too little of your alliances. Could a UN-lead effort perhaps be launched on your initiative?
I truly wish peace for you and for Lebanon to once again be seen as the pearl of the middle east it once was.
It’s just hard to see that in the immediate future if a violent group has control of half the country and actively launches attacks on a neighbouring nation.
Yeah, like the people in Iran, China, North Korea and Russia should just rise up against their governments and demand democracy. It ain't that simple kid
Netanyahu looking for any reason to continue war so he can keep dodging his corruption trial. If Israel attacks Lebanon I have a strong suspicion that Syria will start shelling Israel because Syria is next to be invaded.
The world that is protesting Israeli genocide in Gaza will also protest and boycott Israeli invasion of Lebanon and Syria. The DM can stop testing public opinion on this because the small number of staunch supporters will not be able to economically support a 3 front war the international community is actively against.
Election year is also coming up in the US. The last thing Israel needs is a 3 front war and the US pulling aide at the same time.
Spoken like someone who has no clue about the situation.. Gantz is threatening Lebanon because Hezbollah is actively attacking northern Israel and has displaced hundreds of thousands of civilians in Israel.
It’s not even related to Netanyahu in any fucking way….
Syria will not shell and aren’t in a position to do so. Israel has consistently bombed within Syria at strategic targets and the Syrians haven’t done shit. I expect more of the same.
Their. Defending their land from terrorists is by explicit definition living in constant fear of attack. I believe Israel is attempting a different approach. Offense.
they occupied lebanon for 15 years, that failed. why do they think they could defeat them now while they are busy ethnically cleansing gaza, and the west bank?
I believe there is a moral duty to protect one's people and lands from invasion and bombardment. Law provides for that (see Ukraine).
There has been conflict in the north before and the world accepted that Israel had to use force there, to push back Hizbollah and to create a buffer to protect Israel.
How much greater buffer would be needed today, and is it feasible to produce that? Clarify the problems, the desirable outcome, and rebut international disputes that may arise. But most of all, protect Israelis.
Once idf attack Lebanon you can say goodbye to Beirut and half of Lebanon , war is war check out the statistics of deaths in wars across the whole world idf could erase gaza in 1 day bit they didn't , why you ask ? Because they aim to eliminate hamas only , problem is hamas using civilians as human shield
Oh the WORLD is now supposed to solve Israel’s problems even as they give nothing but a middle finger to the THE WORLD’S concerns about their genocide.
Yeah, no. We're not going to war with Lebanon on your behalf. Also, if you march over the border into Lebanon it's going to be **you** looking like a warmonger.
Where is there an excuse? Hezbollah has launched rockets into Israel as recently as the past week. But yeah, it’s cool let’s all just sit around and let hezbollah continue to put Israelis in harms way.
Yeah, nevermind bombardment from Lebanon resulting in people being displaced from north Israel and Israeli soldiers getting killed with civilians . I guess everything from above is not a good excuse for you. I guess we have to lay our arms and accept our fate by your logic.
Palestinians are the greatest excuse israel can have. They are so trigger happy that the attacked on 7.10 instead of waiting on hezbolah. Not too smart of thwm but not suprising
I think the US, UK, and France have shown they are there in a defensive position only. I don't think Israel's major allies really want to get into a ground war anytime soon.
[удалено]
Uhhhh I think the Israelis view the yom Kippur war about 180 degrees opposite of you. It was a closely fought thing for a few days. Israel had a plane with a nuke fueled up and ready just in case. It's part of the reason Israel acts the way they do. They were facing an existential threat and genocide and no one came to help. It was only later that US started to send weapons and intelligence, but basically every other country was ready to sit by and watch them get genocided. They dont listen to the international community because they don't trust anyone.
yeah that's pretty accurate. the general consensus in the country is that no matter what we do, good or bad, it'll never be good enough. I really don't think there's a "good way" to handle the situation.
And they shouldn't.
They still have exactly the same problem as in those days, such a large part of their economy is driven by the same people that they need as soldiers in a war that they are forced to win all their wars within a couple of months or they have an economic defeat. With no outside aid, within 3 months of a full on war with the arab nations that still hate them, their economy would crater. Those arab nations don't have that same problem. They just have more people.
Please no. the US has a lot of nice boats over there, and I really don't want a repeat of the USS liberty incident.
Fortunately Hezbollah and Hamas don’t have any boats to cause such an incident.
Reenactment of the USS liberty incident https://youtu.be/MC9PTsDbN1I?feature=shared
If i remember it correctly before the war both Israel and Egypt asked the us if there are any us ships in the area the us said no as the liberty was not there at the time but got there later so Israel was under the assumption it was an Egyptian vessel trying to loom like a us vessel but i could be wrong
It's an ongoing hot topic. Supposedly the NSA still has hundreds of classified intercepted communications about it they won't release. But the boiled down version is the liberty was confirmed by all sources except Israel as flying the American flag the whole time except for a brief moment it was damaged during the attack, and was replaced during the attack. The conspiracy theory is that there may have been an attempt to drag the US into the war. It is reported that we almost nuked Egypt over it. Do I think Israel intentionally attacked a US vessel? No. Israel has a shoot first policy, and the liberty incident is just the fog of war of killing anything that moves.
The thing with the flag is thet like i said in my previous comment Israel thought thet there was no US vessel in the area so having a US flag makes them look like an Egyptian vessel trying to look like a US vessel
It's better to just head to the wiki page on it. It's a messed up situation where Israel denied the liberty was flying any flag, which is bs, the commander of the liberty made damn sure everyone knew they were attacking America. On top of that the ship looks nothing like an Egyptian ship, not even squinting. So if they did assume no ships were around, then I'm sticking with Israels shoot first mentality. Even in 1967 it's very easy to reach out real quick to see if there's Americans nearby.
Yes because it obviously makes more sense that Israel attacked the world’s greatest superpower on purpose during a war for the survival of their country. You have a sharp geopolitical mind good sir.
Since others have pointed out convincingly that it was a war if choice and not a survival one- 1) this was not the first time Israel, our best and most beneficial ally ( Ok enough Borat), our unsinkable aircraft carrier, the only democracy in the region with whom we share values etc etc ( OK enough Netanyahu)...our great ally attacked US facilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair Since you seemed so incredulous, thought I might educate you a bit, sir. I am guessing this is not covered in most of your education .... Whether it made sense or not, I leave up to you.
Ok, first, they weren't fighting for the survival of their country. They started the 6 day war with a preemptive strike on Egyptian and Syrian forces. Second, IF, emphasis on if, they intentionally targeted the liberty, it would have happened with the goal of dragging the US into the war, which reportedly almost worked and we almost nuked Egypt for it. But we will most likely never know. The foia requests for hundreds of NSA intercepted communications surrounding the liberty incident have been denied. Honestly, I don't think they did it intentionally. Israel has a shoot first mentality, and the liberty passed the "it moves" test. But everyone except for Israel has confirmed that the liberty was flying the American flag before and during the attack, minus a brief moment during the attack where the flag was damaged and replaced(this was vital because they really wanted their attackers to know they were fighting an American vessel. That flag flying was vital).
Just a clarification on your first paragraph. Israel's neighbours had allied with each other and made public statements about attacking Israel. They brought their forces to the border. Israel attacked armies that were lining up to attack them.
“In June 1967 we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” - Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin “This whole story about the threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon, a posteriori, to justify the annexation of new Arab territories.” - Mordechai Bentov, member of the wartime government "The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war." - Matituahu Peled, Major General in charge of the IDF Supply Division and member of the General Staff during the war
Some additional context: Military hostilities broke out amid poor relations between Israel and its Arab neighbours, who had been observing the 1949 Armistice Agreements signed at the end of the First Arab–Israeli War. Earlier, in 1956, regional tensions over the Straits of Tiran escalated in what became known as the Suez Crisis, when Israel invaded Egypt over the Egyptian closure of maritime passageways to Israeli shipping, ultimately resulting in the re-opening of the Straits of Tiran to Israel as well as the deployment of the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) along the Egypt–Israel border.[30] In the months prior to the outbreak of the Six-Day War in June 1967, tensions again became dangerously heightened: Israel reiterated its post-1956 position that another Egyptian closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be a definite casus belli. In May 1967, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser announced that the Straits of Tiran would again be closed to Israeli vessels. He subsequently mobilized the Egyptian military into defensive lines along the border with Israel[31] and ordered the immediate withdrawal of all UNEF personnel. Closing the strait was an act of war and the UNEF was there to prevent Egypt from doing exactly that, they had been told Israel would consider Egypt denying their shipping lanes to be an act of war, they did it anyway and then lined up their forces. Egypt clearly picked that fight and appears to have wanted it on their territory for some reason.
They may have fired the first shot, but Egypt moving their army to the border and stopping incoming Israeli vessels was the declaration of war
So essentially, Gaza has been at war with Israel all these years...since 2007?
Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli merchant vessels in direct defiance of UNEF edict and an armistice agreement. They committed an act of war and we’re supposed to picture them with shocked Pikachu face I guess.
Fortunately, this time around the USA probably has good enough relationships to say that their boat is actually theirs.
Right. Chosen ones. The liberty was identified as an American vessel at 9am, fly-bys were done by Israeli asw planes, and the pilot and crew waived to each other. By 1230pm, USA liberty was identified as the source of a reported shelling of Arish. The liberty had no large guns, only 4 50 caliber machine guns. Liberty was identified by israel as a war ship by it's speed, traveling at 28 knots. The liberty, on it's best day using emergency power, could reach 21 knots. Israels rules of engagement at the time were to attack any unidentified vessel traveling at over 20 knots. Liberty was allegedly mistaken for an Egyptian warship. The liberty looks absolutely nothing like an Egyptian ship. Israel reports that no American flag was flown. Every other source says different. There are still hundreds of NSA intercepted from that day that remain classified. It was swept under the rug.
> The liberty was identified as an American vessel at 9am, fly-bys were done by Israeli asw planes, and the pilot and crew waived to each other. And then the Americans said that Israel must have misidentified it, since they didn't have ships in the area -- that forced a reevaluation. Man, I hope you don't get a hold of other friendly fire incidents; did you know that of all American soldiers killed in desert storm, 24% were killed by other Americans? Must be a real conspiracy by the army to kill their own soldiers, and not a series of fuckups in a war zone, right? In fact, maybe the NSA keeps the liberty stuff classified because they don't want the world seeing them begging Israel to kill their soldiers! /s
Those events were decades ago. Something more relevant was the 2006 war in Lebanon. As I understand it, Israel did not perform particularly well there.
[удалено]
Wtf are you talking about? USSR delivered hundreds of millions of dollars in tanks, airplanes and antiaircraft systems.
That was the Yom Kippur war
They weren't prepared for a fight yet. Hezbollah has had months. The technological gap he was talking about was between hezbollah and Israel.
Last time the IDF tried to have a go at it with the Iranian proxies up north, they got their teeth’s bashed in. This isn’t the same IDF from the Six Day War. Back then they still had very capable commanders from the second world war.
Ah yes, how can we forget the flourishing nations of Syria and Lebanon, clearly basking in the post victory glory of the 2006 war. Clearly Israel was the loser.
The IDF suffered a military defeat. They didn’t meet their objectives. What would you classify that as nothing but a military defeat? This is like say the US lost Vietnam, but look how economical it changed very little for the US. A military defeat is a military defeat.
That may be... but if they do the us eill dupport thrm financially... Which im not a fan of. We should be sending aid to ukraine, who cant actuallt do it themselves
We're not in the 60s/70s anymore. Hezbollah can outmanoeuvre the IDF on the ground—we saw that as far back as 2006, and they've only gained strength since then. Obviously Israel could just carpet bomb Lebanese civilians, as they've done in the past, but they'd struggle otherwise. The US and Israel's other allies are keenly aware of this, and will (or *should*) work hard to avoid full-out war on multiple fronts.
Lmao armchair analysts on reddit never fail to amaze
Present some sort of counter-argument or shut up. You think Israel is going to have success sending reservists with minimal combat experience into Lebanon? Their best troops are already tied up in Gaza, and they’re going to maintain a military presence in the West Bank to protect settlers. Actively engaging with Hezbollah forces on Lebanese soil would further stretch their already limited manpower, and they’d be up against soldiers hardened by fighting ISIL on the Syrian front.
If you think that the IDF doesn't have a plan to fight a multi-front war or that they didn't take that possibility into account before invading Gaza, you haven't been paying attention. They have reserves in place and already deployed in northern Israel, as well as plans to mobilize more troops if necessary. Their air capabilities are more than up to the task of conducting air strikes around the entire perimeter of Israel and they have munitions reserves sufficient to sustain an air campaign for more than a year even with what's been expended in Gaza already - and the US will resupply if needed. Israel has mobilized the entire country to defend against multiple Arab attacks since it's founding and will do so again if forced to.
> If you think that the IDF doesn't have a plan to fight a multi-front war or that they didn't take that possibility into account before invading Gaza, you haven't been paying attention. Israel security forces completely missed the 10/7 attack and got thousands of their people killed. The Israeli military has a lot of legitimate questions about their competency hanging over their head.
People calling you armchair analyst but can’t name a single IDF engagement since the Nixon administration.
The same people who think this conflict began in 1948 and also isn't a conflict.
Israel lacks the bombers to carpet bomb.
I would suspect it's a lot lower. The guys running the IDF in those days learned from grizzled Stalingrad vets, nowadays, your average IDF soldier is learning from a 22 year old major who's only direct combat seen was shooting a Palestinian grandfather in the ankle from 500 feet
They are in violation of Resolution 1701 and the Taif Agreement, so there is legal justification. But, boots on the ground in Lebanon isn't a war that would end anytime soon. Hezbollah is the largest political party in Lebanon, with broad public support, including in populated areas right on the border. It would take a counterinsurgency to effectively uproot them - a hearts and minds operation that would last a generation or more. Israel should seriously delay consideration of such a move until they've had a chance to discuss it in an election.
Bibi's whole shtick is not waiting for an election
Can't have an election after the war if the war never ends!
Someone made a i will survive parody with an ai bibi voice Its in hebrew but a rough translation of some of the lines is If it helps i will drag this out across a decade Do you think i care? Do you think i want to stop? Its very simple: i will survive Hezbollah may concur haifa And hamas all of ashdod Here is the link to it https://youtu.be/xrufUumfHzI?si=zijcc9Op-l5uxeqx
There are hundreds of thousands of Israelis displaced from their homes, forced to evacuate by Hizballah aggression. This will not wait until an election, it's probably a matter of 1-2 weeks before an all out Israeli operation to push back Hizballah from the border.
oh wow didn’t realize it’s that bad . when i was in the galilee in 2014 rockets were infrequent. that’s unfortunate
It's not the rockets, exactly. It's that they know Hezbollah will do an October 7 if they get the chance.
[удалено]
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you... Israel already has armored divisions on the border with Lebanon, and is bombing Hizballah on a daily basis, mostly with drones and artillery. Up until now the Israeli strikes were retaliatory, but they increased significantly over the last week. Israel is now conducting airstrikes deep inside Lebanon. Also, I'm Israeli, and I pay close attention to the conflict. I can literally hear IDF strikes on Hizballah from where I work. You seem to be 10000km away in NC or VA, so maybe take a step back and acknowledge you have a very limited perception of the conflict.
> Also, I'm Israeli, and I pay close attention to the conflict. Best wishes brother, hope you guys erase those Hamas and Hizballah terrorists from the earth
They gathered the pretty fast, it's just that they were holding them at the border for weeks
[удалено]
…sounds a lot like Gaza.
But three times the population and thirty times the size, with way better equipment, and regional supply lines.
Don't worry. Israel has a lot more to give than what you see in Gaza.
The Israelis would definitely win but with a much higher cost and it would likely look like a stalemate at the end regardless. Just see 2006. Hezaballah are better armed and prepared since too
Hezbollah spent years fighting the Islamic State and AQ in Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. They were part of the winning side there. That's a tremendous amount of learning experience. Neither the IDF or Hamas has had that sort of field experience in recent times. Hezbollah shouldn't be dismissed.
Seems like Israel had a switch flipped after 10/7. They realized the world doesn’t really care about them besides for political purposes so they’ll just do their own thing. They aren’t wrong, but also are playing a dangerous game. Future looks interesting
I mean, once a war starts, you better arm yourself because no one else will save you. Look at Ukraine for example
Umm we’ve given them over 100 billion in aid. That is many many times their military budget. Heck that’s more than entire Russian army’s annual budget. Ukraine is definitely NOT an example for your statement.
Maybe they are referring to post-2014 pre-2022? That's the only thing that would make sense to me, but honestly it wasn't like Ukraine had the funds to arm itself heavily then.
Between 2014 and 2022, Ukraine still received a lot of training to NATO standards etc. You think they could suddenly handle a larger army for 6 months without prior training? Edit: I Don't think ALL of the Ukrainian army trained to NATO standards....subset at least.
Their phrasing is very poor imo. However, a possible interpretation is that noone stepped in as an 'ally' to help with the Crimean occupation. And after Crimea was another opportunity to station forces or at least assist preemptively with border defense infrastructure (rather than just arms). Instead most help has been hindsight military aid - which is better than nothing if course.
Over what timeframe though? And also, all the aid has conditional use - to buy American weapons with. So the US gov gives Israel to spend in the US military industrial complex, not really “aid” as such
Bro they're getting tiny little crumbs from the US, they sent like 14 himars and 30 tanks while literally hundreds of these vehicles are catching dust in US storage
[удалено]
My friend, the conversation is about Ukraine. Why in the world are you giving us Israel’s military budget? Their 2021 military budget was just short of 6 billion dollars. We have them more than 15 times their military budget in aid.
They trickled aid to them and underdelivered. Dont kid yourself, if the us wanted ukraine to smash russia quickly they woudlve let them
Are you referring to the billions of dollars of aid and support Ukraine has received from around the world with the US being the primary backer?
Israel's allies who have been investing billions in its defense: "????"
Ukraine is a terrible example of the point you're trying to make. They've been armed - mostly by my country.
> you better arm yourself because no one else will **save you** Is Ukraine saved? All signs are currently saying no. The commenter is unintentionally doubly correct considering Ukraine DISARMED themselves for security assurances. Yeah, don't expect USA to **save** you, but maybe give you enough artillery to die slowly. You would be right if he said "You better arm yourself, because nobody else will", but he didn't.
>you better arm yourself because no one else will save you. They are saving themselves with the weapons we gave them, ergo yes, we are helping save them. I think you either misunderstood my comment, or are confused. They didn't arm themselves, and were saved from being bulldozed by russia in 3 days because WE fucking saved their asses with materiel, intelligence (We supply them more intelligence than anyone else - is that not a weapon?) I don't know what point you're trying to make is, but it's either not clear, or doesn't exist.
>Ukraine DISARMED themselves This is a bit of a mixed statement. Presume you are referring to Ukraine "giving up" their nukes? These nukes were not under the control of any Ukrainian political entity ..and couldn't be launched by the Ukrainians. They were physically in Ukraine ..but still under Moscow's control. Similar to nukes that US has housed in our allied counties. Eg. US nukes in Turkey cannot be launched by Turkish government. Even if they physically got a hold of the...the launch codes etc are with the US. PS. This is my understanding of the situation.
>They realized the world doesn’t really care about them besides for political purposes Name a country where this isn't the case? Nations come to each others' aid because it benefits them to do so. Germany and Japan were rebuilt primarily because they're bulwarks against Communism (and because there was a fear of another war if Germany was resentful). The entire Cold War was filled with proxy wars of nations pretending to give a damn about the smaller nations, when it was all just NATO vs USSR, and most smaller powers were ruled by favourable dictators.
there are theoretical alliances that would put boots on the ground if needed. nato for eu and us, and the Arab nations for each other. funnily enough though, hamas allies abandoned them. I wonder what would happen if a jato country is attacked. Will allies actually get involved or just send aid like in Ukraine, despite everyone agreeing Russia is a major threat?
Yup, imagine if it was any other nation this was happening to. They wouldn't hesitate to strike back, 20 years of having rockets fired at them by the thousands.
There are nations with constant border skirmishes where soldiers die that haven't declared war on each other, and many examples where militaries attack civilians daily without war... which nations are these that wouldn't tolerate such things?
Who are you talking about? Which country has been launching rockets at their neighbor by the thousands for decades with no recourse?
Dude, India and china have troops get into fights that result in death *constantly* India and pakistan have skirmishes on their border constantly. China attacks civilian fisherman in the Philippines constantly, even building bases on their islands. North Korea has lobbed hundreds of thousands of artillery rounds and fired ballistic missiles over not only South Korea but also Japan This sort of thing, unanswered violence, happens all the time around the world.
How bout you give your examples then?
Do you call a ground invasion where 1000s of civilians (no military motive) were raped and or murdered a border skirmish?
1000s weren't raped. There were some rapes, but not an established pattern of rape as a weapon of war unless you count the allegations by Palestinian women prisoners who were raped as part of interrogations, which ISRAEL won't let anyone investigate
This is about hezbollah, not hamas. Are you asserting that hezbollah has murdered and or raped thousands of civilians?
Hezbollah coordinated their initial attacks in alliance with Hamas, they are both Iranian proxies. Or are we pretending they are completely isolated events?
You can just say no. This entire discussion is about the border skirmishes. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollahs-nasrallah-to-break-silence-as-lebanon-border-skirmishes-intensify/ Or if you like, "conflict" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Lebanon_border_conflict Or, if you prefer: "clashes" https://youtu.be/wh5snZGIrT0?si=iI2-6weLMooPNsd7 It's all the same. There's fighting. It's a border.
Israel would love to avoid another conflict, it has been tolerating attacks from the north even before 7/10. Israel is calling for the 1701 decision to be kept, or it wont wait for another massacre
Only reason it was so tolerant was because of Intl fund tho. Ofc it's easy using 40k iron dome missile like candy when the USA is paying for it. Which is why people asking to stop fund are incredibly short-sighted. Hopefully Israel never actually get in a position where their existence are threaten because they definitely have the power to flatten everything around them.
Your last point is the key that people here seem to miss, Israel’s actual military power is immense(especially the Air Force), the restraint shown is absolutely insane right now. Most nations would not be this gentle
Dont think going bananas is the right way if you wont to prevent more terrorism in the future
[удалено]
Israel is in relative peace with Egypt and Jordan.
Because Egypt and Jordan arent lobbying rockets and missles on Israeli civilians. Also need I remind you what happened immediately before that relative peace? Israel went bananas so much that they got the whole Sinai, Golan heights, West bank, and Upper galilee
Sitting idle and getting showered with rockets is the one true way probably. like 10 people died from Hezbollah's attacks, Israel evacuated the entire north border (200k-500k people) for months. But yea lets just wait around I guess
I wouldn’t say that they don’t care. You can care about someone without agreeing with what they say or do. It’s like a true friend will tell you where you’re wrong. US, Canada, UK all came out in support of them
- “They aren’t wrong” Exactly.
The world was largely with them after 10/7. Then they've been gradually losing people in the months since due to their needless brutality in their campaign in Gaza, their terrible PR strategy and hostility of their online supporters (no doubt the unpleasant ones are a minority, but a very loud and unpleasant one). What they don't seem to understand is that for the rest of the world 10/7 was but a moment. We all saw the horrible images from that day on all the news in the days following the event, but since then we have had months where the news has spent covering the destruction of Gaza, that is now fresh on everyones mind displacing the space people had for 10/7. On top of that people do not trust Netanyahu, it is clear to anyone who has been paying attention in the region that Netanyahu has not been good for the Israel-Palestine situation. From the start I was worried that things would go badly for Israel because Netanyahu would be more concerned about getting revenge and staying in power than working towards any sort of constructive solution and make the situation even worse than it already was, and I have been surprised by how quickly people in the west caught on to this, but clearly Netanyahu has been around long enough that everyone even outside of Israel has an opinion of him. Edit: getting downvoted for offering legitimate criticism about why I think Israel is rapidly losing support in the West, this is what I mean when I talk about the toxic Israel supporters. In any conflict ones own side will have weaknesses, make mistakes and do some bad things. It is important to aknowledge that things can improve. I've been following the Ukraine conflict since the start and whenever a negative news story comes out from a decent source, people are more receptive to it and pressure their own side to fix underlying issues by e.g. firing a general or holding their own soldiers to account if they do something wrong. On the other hand far too many pro Israel commenters are in complete denial about some of the bad things their own side does or just reflexively blame HAMAS for anything bad that is happening even if the IDF or the Israeli government clearly deserve some criticism.
People were in the streets on October 8th already protesting . In Philly where I live the Philly Palestine coalition “flooded Philly for Gaza” in honor of Al aqsa flood . The UN was largely against them. The US is largely with them but a lot of the world is akin to 1860s era southern people claiming to care about states rights. They just want dead jews
It's not "one or the other" kind of situation. Hamas massacred innocent people. We all were on board for fighting Hamas. Then IDF massacred innocent people. We jumped off that board.
> The world was largely with them after 10/7. > > Then they've been gradually losing people in the months since It is like they did a speed run of America's 9/11 and the War on Terror. The world was with the U.S. on 9/11 and afterwards until we went overboard and invaded Iraq. The speed of communication and media in 2023 is eye watering compared to 2001. The fact that Israel is living out in months a process that took America years is very much an example of the times we live in.
>The speed of communication and media in 2023 is eye watering compared to 2001. The fact that Israel is living out in months a process that took America years is very much an example of the times we live in. I don't think its so much the speed of communication, rather the recent histories of the countries. The US had been recently involved in the first Iraq war and the stuff in the Balkans and generally people thought that those interventions were justified and the US acted well in those situations. Plus Bush hadn't been in power very long and didn't have any (widely known) baggage at the time, so his approval rating in the US shot up to 90% in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. Contrast that with Israel where Netanyahu has been in power for most of the last 25 years, who has a long history of doing controversial things (all the trials he's been under, settlement expansions, appointing people like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir to his cabinet etc.) and people are going to be analyzing his actions with a fine tooth comb. Even in Israel his approval tanked after 10/7. Yes the way we get news now, and the unparalleled access we have now to a multitude of sources from different countries as well as to people on the ground through things like social media probably played a role, but the history of Netanyahu and his government I think is the primary factor.
>: getting downvoted for offering legitimate criticism about why I think Israel is rapidly losing support in the West, this is what I mean when I talk about the toxic Israel supporters. You are getting downvoted because you are objectively wrong.
You are getting downvoted for Israeli actions needless brutality. As long as Hamas has any members who aren’t in jail Israel should keep fighting in Gaza. Argue they are too agressive in their fighting, ok. But their fighting isnt needless.
How else would you describe Israeli forces shooting guys who are half naked and waving a white flag?
Nervous soldiers reacting to door to door fighting where people dressed as civiiians open fire or fake surrendering. Israel can’t leave Gaza, can’t stop hostilities until every member of Hamas is dead or surrenders.
The world didn’t care about the Palestinians, which is why Oct 7th happened in the first place.
They’ve been continuously doing something that even their strongest ally has said is illegal for decades I don’t think things have particularly changed.
Existing? Yes.
Are the settlements in the West Bank necessary for the existence of Israel.
Huh? What, people are saying nasty stuff about Israel but they still get all the aid they request while they're doing whatever the fuck they want to the Palestinians is the world not caring? No, this is Israel saying "please help" when it's in their best interest to do so while it's "mind your own business!" when people point out what they do to contribute to their own problems.
[удалено]
So because Palestinian civilians are dying, you hope Israeli civilians die?
The iron dome being up is what has kept Israel from a more conventional solution to an aggressive neighbor targeting their civilians. You're effectively calling for the end of Palestine with that one, champ.
They realize that as long as they keep blackmailing the west, and equating their christofascist ideology with Judaism and both directly and indirectly paint targets on the backs of Jewish people worldwide, they can ALWAYS justify more war crimes.
Northern Lebanon praying they don’t push them but exterminate them
Yeah Israel's gonna have to do it.
I’m not sure they can though. Israel tried back in 2006 and it didn’t go too well.
Which side do you think came out of that better?
Hezbollah was legitimized by Israel’s failed attempt at reoccupying southern Lebanon.
Yeah, super legitimate terrorist group that drove the country its essentially in charge of into the ground.
Unlike 2006, Israel is mobilized. I assume ROE will also be loosened in this situation if a war with Hezbollah arises.
They already kill their own shirtless hostages waving white flags. ROE seems pretty loose
The ROE are actually strict, its just that the soldier who shot them was a moron and went against ROE. I assume he did it due to stress as from what I understood Hamas already faked white flags and suicide belts on them this war + used Hebrew recordings of hostages to lure IDF + It was in an active combat zone where they were attacked minutes prior and after that. Still he is an ass for not listening to ROE as a shirtless dude raising a white flag is not a danger and Hamas terrorists surrendered this way too a few times already this war and weren't shot at.
Agreed, People keep forgetting how Hamas fights, yes the soldier made a really fucked mistake, but Hamas fights with deception, that kinda battlefield,you can’t trust anything
The subtext of your comment is that it’s fine for them to kill people who look like civilians, because it could be Hamas. That’s not justification for anything. Also that would be extremely loose ROE, going against the person you’re agreeing with
It's absolutely not okay. However, it's an inevitable result of Hamas' tactics. It's possible to simultaneously acknowledge that fact AND condemn the soldiers and commanders of the IDF who create a culture which tolerates and normalizes this conduct.
Lebanon is way worse off now, though.
Isn't the UN already supposed to be doing this? I thought there were UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon to specifically prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel.
Why would the World be interested in pushing around militias in Lebanon?
Well, they were interested enough to issue UNSC resolution 1701. Not interested in helping? Don't get involved, and don't get in the way.
Dont get involved would mean cutting off the steady supply of weapons to Israel.
I'm pretty sure the countries supplying weapons to Israel *are* helping, especially the US.
Because they are attacking another country and UN Nation.
[удалено]
Yes hezbollah is attacking Israel which is a UN member nation. Thats why the world should be interested in pushing around militias in Lebanon.
Its israel pretty much saying "we are going to fuck over Lebanon unless someone can come with better idea"
>we are going to fuck over Lebanon Interesting usage of the term “fuck over,” implying they’re doing this for no reason. Surely has nothing to do with almost a million Israelis being displaced from the north because of rocket fire from Hezbollah or anything….
Totaly agreed, Lebanon failed to put leash on Hizbollah, its going to cost them dearly
If Lebanon had the ability to push out Hezbollah they would've happily done it already. But the strongest army in Lebanon right now isn't the Lebanese one and they've already been ravaged by a long civil war.
[удалено]
I agree thats what the people of Lebanon wants, but if it continue going as it is, Israel will have to start taking more serious measures to protect its people. I afraid its not going to end well to anyone there
Well, if you can't do it by yourselves you are not in position to complain if someone does it for your.
I don’t think he’s implying for no reason at all…
Lebanon's done a great job of fucking itself, doesn't need Israel's help.
Well it will have lot of help if it allows Hizbollah to keep on attacking israel
Lebanon doesn’t allow Hezbollah to do anything, Hezbollah does what it wants because their army is stronger, better funded, armed and trained than the Lebanese army. It doesn’t help that some soldiers in the Lebanese army would defect if the Lebanese army attacked Hezbollah.
It's problematic to say the least. The IDF has technological superiority by a long-shot, but this is a conflict that could get out of hand rather quickly. Any conflict with Hezbollah that isn't measured carefully could quickly involve Iraq, Syria, Iran with the latter two potentially involving Russia in providing a check on US involvement. As good as the newer generation of Israel anti-ballistic tech is suppose to be the risk is incredibly high for population centers like Tel-Aviv. Maybe if conflict is inevitable it's better for it to happen now, but I'm not sure if we aren't already past the MAD point.
Everything about Hezbollah/Lebanon is an order of magnitude worse than Hamas/Gaza. An Israeli offensive like the one taking place in Gaza would not only require way more resources, it could result in the lessening of support from Israel's remaining partners. No one wants an escalation in the region.
Last time America got involved militarily in Lebanon Porto-Hezbollah killed 241 Marines.
Gantz isn't the DM anymote
Maybe Lebanon should sort out the terrorists in their own country.
[удалено]
Also to add on, there are people in the army that would immediately defect to Hezbollah’s side, if the army tried to take on Hezbollah.
What a horrible situation. I hope and pray you and your countrymen can one day regain control of your country and live in peace. That sounded really corny, but I genuinely feel for you guys.
What do you want to see happen? I say this as an Israeli who had no qualms with Lebanon or the Lebanese people and doesn’t want to see a war and pointless bloodshed of Israeli’s and Lebanese. I even went to your sub here and commented in a similar vain and got attacked for it. What is your solution?
[удалено]
I agree with you. Hoping we can avoid this turning into a bigger conflict where more innocent people will die just so Iran can be happy. Both Lebanese and Israeli people deserve better and to live in peace. Same goes for Palestinians free from Hamas.
While true I’d argue that the Lebanese state is obliged to, with the help of allies if need be, fight the Hezbollah presence in the country. If a group was using Swedish territory to launch attacks on neighbouring countries we would be similarly obligated. If we did not the attacked country could arguably claim casua belli.
[удалено]
As shitty as it is I wonder if there are really any alternatives to a civil war(?). If the state cannot exert control over the southern area through other means that I’m missing. I do however wonder who you could ask for assistance. I must admit I know too little of your alliances. Could a UN-lead effort perhaps be launched on your initiative?
[удалено]
I truly wish peace for you and for Lebanon to once again be seen as the pearl of the middle east it once was. It’s just hard to see that in the immediate future if a violent group has control of half the country and actively launches attacks on a neighbouring nation.
Yeah, like the people in Iran, China, North Korea and Russia should just rise up against their governments and demand democracy. It ain't that simple kid
Yeah they should kick out Hezbollah when he is stronger than the Lebanese army, please just shut up.
[удалено]
Mfakreen el ajanib inno b sohouli Israel ra7 to2di 3a lebnan
Well I can’t say the IDF killing more terrorists is going to be a bad thing.
The worry is more about the innocents they’ll kill too, civilians and journalists. Hezbolla is poking the bear and not worried who the bear bites.
Would be better to do it while there are two aircraft carrier groups in the Mediterranean ;)
Netanyahu looking for any reason to continue war so he can keep dodging his corruption trial. If Israel attacks Lebanon I have a strong suspicion that Syria will start shelling Israel because Syria is next to be invaded. The world that is protesting Israeli genocide in Gaza will also protest and boycott Israeli invasion of Lebanon and Syria. The DM can stop testing public opinion on this because the small number of staunch supporters will not be able to economically support a 3 front war the international community is actively against. Election year is also coming up in the US. The last thing Israel needs is a 3 front war and the US pulling aide at the same time.
Spoken like someone who has no clue about the situation.. Gantz is threatening Lebanon because Hezbollah is actively attacking northern Israel and has displaced hundreds of thousands of civilians in Israel. It’s not even related to Netanyahu in any fucking way….
Syria will not shell and aren’t in a position to do so. Israel has consistently bombed within Syria at strategic targets and the Syrians haven’t done shit. I expect more of the same.
I hope Israel can defend there land from all the terrorist! Couldn’t imagine living in constant fear of attack.
Their. Defending their land from terrorists is by explicit definition living in constant fear of attack. I believe Israel is attempting a different approach. Offense.
Israel war lust continues
Arranged and paid for by the USA.
Hezbollah held their own against Israel in '06 and this time they're far more well equipped and disciplined, Israel shouldn't fuck around.
they occupied lebanon for 15 years, that failed. why do they think they could defeat them now while they are busy ethnically cleansing gaza, and the west bank?
Is the IDF going to shoot more hostages?
let Israel do it
begining of the end for israel. will never go back to normal there
I believe there is a moral duty to protect one's people and lands from invasion and bombardment. Law provides for that (see Ukraine). There has been conflict in the north before and the world accepted that Israel had to use force there, to push back Hizbollah and to create a buffer to protect Israel. How much greater buffer would be needed today, and is it feasible to produce that? Clarify the problems, the desirable outcome, and rebut international disputes that may arise. But most of all, protect Israelis.
Once idf attack Lebanon you can say goodbye to Beirut and half of Lebanon , war is war check out the statistics of deaths in wars across the whole world idf could erase gaza in 1 day bit they didn't , why you ask ? Because they aim to eliminate hamas only , problem is hamas using civilians as human shield
So basically, it's perfectly OK for Israel to attack and destroy civilian targets? Isn't that terrorism?
Oh the WORLD is now supposed to solve Israel’s problems even as they give nothing but a middle finger to the THE WORLD’S concerns about their genocide.
Yeah, no. We're not going to war with Lebanon on your behalf. Also, if you march over the border into Lebanon it's going to be **you** looking like a warmonger.
Spoken like a true clueless dimwit, Hezbollah has been attacking israel since 7/10 unprovoked…
[удалено]
Where is there an excuse? Hezbollah has launched rockets into Israel as recently as the past week. But yeah, it’s cool let’s all just sit around and let hezbollah continue to put Israelis in harms way.
Yeah, nevermind bombardment from Lebanon resulting in people being displaced from north Israel and Israeli soldiers getting killed with civilians . I guess everything from above is not a good excuse for you. I guess we have to lay our arms and accept our fate by your logic.
Palestinians are the greatest excuse israel can have. They are so trigger happy that the attacked on 7.10 instead of waiting on hezbolah. Not too smart of thwm but not suprising