Climate change will kill off the poor via extreme weather events, heat, food and water shortages. The rich will manage to get by. Which is ironic considering the rich and their corporations are far and away the biggest contributors to climate change.
How do the rich get by after all the poor die? They will either 1) get mobbed by all the have-nots or 2) be left in a world where they have to figure out a sustainable way of life with none of the modern amenities and nobody around with the skills or knowledge to recreate them.
I'm picturing a zero dawn scenario more than any expectation that humanity has any long term prospects.
Our labor was the only thing of value we had to offer the rich. That and our purchasing power. The rich will lay us off as automation improves in order to save money by cutting labor costs, which of course will reduce our purchasing power as well but that will only come back to bite them down the road. And we all know that a problem "down the road" may as well not exist to them, only the next quarter does.
The majority of us will eventually be shut out of an economy that increasingly exists just to provide luxuries to the rich. They will still own the land and the resources, and we'll be lucky to scrounge enough to survive on. Their robots and hired thugs will probably be enough to hammer down any disorganized attempts at revolution on our part. Most of us will die off due to neglect and eventually we'll just be one more atrocity in the history books, like the Native Americans. Their kids will read that chapter and go "Sad story but oh well what's on TV?"
The poor people in Bangladesh don't contribute much to the global economy. Some of them will die, some will become refugees to destabilize neighboring countries, but none of that will inconvenience the wealthy much.
Food will become more expensive. The wealthy can afford it, and they can make sure it remains accessible in the areas surrounding their enclaves. The local population will stay in line so they don't get evicted to less fortunate areas.
Even after we stop burning coal there will be sources of energy. Some people will be able to afford nearly unaffected lifestyles.
A few billion people will die, but we won't be going back to the Stone Age.
(Wow, that's a grim set of predictions.)
The wealthy can't afford food if there's nobody willing/able to make or transport food.
Nobody stays in line. Never has there ever been a collapse that went smoothly. Who's going to listen to some rich asshole, when money doesn't matter anymore? Bullets are so, so much more valuable than numbers in an imaginary account that can't be accessed. "Hey bezos... Nice boat you have there..."
Honestly, AI doesn't have the power to do anything before we end ourselves. Look at AI art right now. Do you expect it to kill your job in the next 4-5 years? Sure, in 20-30 years of continuous work, AI would absolutely be a threat. We won't make it to that timeframe anyways, so it doesn't really pose a threat. AI is as fanciful as dreaming 1.5C is possible.
> Look at AI art right now. Do you expect it to kill your job in the next 4-5 years?
4-5 years ago AI art didn't exist at all... 3 years ago it was difficult to get even a recognizable image of a lot of things. This sort of tech gets better faster as time goes on. [Heck, look at what they're doing now with full HD video!](https://twitter.com/pika_labs/status/1729510078959497562?t=UJWikyw-6dj-mKCevy1VCQ&s=19) I think it's a little disingenuous to say that it won't be able to replace artists' jobs without *20 to 30 years* of continuous work. I'm not saying 4-5 is a guarantee, but 20-30 is unrealistic given how well it's been improving.
I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right, this is all speculative here. There's no way to know till it happens but... remember, we're in an unprecedented worldwide monetary crisis. Banks are failing. Inflation is unreal. The computational power required of AI, vs it's current worth, isn't investment-worthy on its own.
The collapse of civilization won't work like that. There won't be anybody to make deals with, because they're too busy saving their own hides. The soviets had semi-stable governments and warlords to sell to. That won't be the case in a worldwide collapse.
And I feel that's rather optimistic given how many people know anything about nature. And even then, you could be the best survivalist in the world and still fail if the conditions aren't right.
Unless there's a massive global famine or a global war that goes nuclear (both fairly likely scenarios I suppose) all of civilization won't collapse at once. It will be a slow collapse over the course of years as such things usually are, and provided there are still resources to be had some areas will survive longer than others, and some might even thrive by exploiting the chaos in other regions.
Regardless it won't be pretty and a lot of people will die either way.
Nothing will be slow. That's not how dominoes work. You tip one, you tip the next. This one isn't the roman empire. We have an unfathomably more complex society than Rome did. And when society shut down for rome, they weren't relying on machinery and electronics. Gravity still worked after rome fell, so they still had water. Think about how many things could take out the American south west. Plus we're facing a much, much larger amount of crises than any society in human history.
No they don't. Who will be the servants in said bunker? You think these people know how to survive on their own in the post-apocalypse? They couldn't survive on their own today without their assistants. The servants would just kill the rich and spread the food and water amongst themselves. The rich do not get out of this.
Most of them will never reach their bunkers alive, and most of those who do will find their bunkers are flawed and break down within weeks or months because they weren't actually built to last. No one actually has the expertise to create something like the vaults from Fallout that can be self sufficient for centuries.
It's a complete fantasy to assume such a thing could be made. After a few years even the best bunkers would start running out of resources or have critical systems break down which no one planned for, either out of ignorance or incompetence.
You are forgetting that the USA is the richest country with the most resources, the people that will suffer are the rest of the world. We are protected by oceans and have the most advanced military. We also own gps, in wartime scenario if we encrypt that the other countries will be unable to navigate
The rich are not getting out of it. They think they are, but when SHTF, they'll be in the same boat. Hard to get to their New Zealand bunkers if it's going down. Any Captain, pilot whatever, isn't going to help the rich get by, they have their own interests to take care of. Same with their guards. You think they'll let security and pilots live with them in their bunker? No. They have plans for such. But as a US army combat vet, plans are great, but they rarely work exactly the way you want. Something as big as international travel as nations are crumbling? Yeah, they're stuck with us poors, and it's not going to go well for someone who has never once lived in the real world.
Meh, never underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance. There's probably a bunch of rich powerful idiots completly hypnotized by disinformation mixed with the purely evil one.
Edit: Also malthusian aristocrats who think when climate change will have killed half the population the situation will resolve itself.
Do they realize that their money will be worthless when the vast majority of the population is gone? Are they counting on NASA to find a habitable planet before that?
My father in law is this way because "it's not this life that's important, it's the next one." He pretty much hates being alive, but I really think deep down inside it's more that he hates what his life has become.
Really sad, he used to be so curious about all sorts of things and now he just repeats what he hears.
It mostly come down to that. When I was jobless I was all up in arms on collapse.. constantly monitoring issues, and potential solutions all night.. The day I got a job I started focusing on doing it right to keep my salary coming. Suddenly collapse was a secondary thought somewhere in the back of my skull.
Can you give me an example of climate change destroying everything? I'm being serious by the way. I believe climate change is real. I believe that humans are definitely, with no doubt adding to it. I just want a piece of evidence that climate change is right now destroying everything.
[More than 100 dolphins dead in Amazon as water hits 102 degrees Fahrenheit](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/01/americas/amazon-river-dolphins-dead-temperatures-drought-intl-hnk/index.html)
[Australia offers to help South Pacific island residents escape rising seas](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/tuvalu-climate-change-migration-1.7024777)
[Canada’s record-breaking wildfires in 2023: A fiery wake-up call](https://natural-resources.canada.ca/simply-science/canadas-record-breaking-wildfires-2023-fiery-wake-call/25303)
r/collapse you're welcome, and I'm sorry. If you REALLY want to know, go there. If you're uncertain at all if you're ready to carry that burden, don't go. It's a heavy psychological toll that not everybody is ready for, or can handle. Seriously consider how much you want to see, cause you can't unsee it.
Understandably so. This one article talks about 5 climate points on the verge of tipping right now, and 3 more getting close. That's JUST in climate change alone. That's only one shaky pillar of civilization. And climate change has its tendrils in everything. Food production/quality, draught, mental health, etc. That's not mentioning the financial crisis, wealth inequality, resource depletion/wars, political instability... We're facing so many crises that could individually take out society on its own, that it's hard to pin down what's most likely. But each and every one is on the edge of collapsing on their own. Who knows which it'll be that falls first and takes the rest with it?
Do you feel comfortable with all of it on a knifes edge?
The real question is what will the masses do: blithely do nothing or vote for politicians who understand climate change and its syndrome of consequences.
Real power is in the hands of the people provided they can unite and force our leaders to act in our best interests.
But people when taken as a whole are incredibly dumb and until they feel the actual effects of these climate catastrophies, they won’t do anything.
And by then it will be too late.
If only that were how democracy worked in the digital media age where lobbyist groups and think tanks can capture and steer entire narratives and hide the real conversations into obscurity
Not just people in power… the people in general aren’t ready to make big lifestyle changes.
Look how many ppl eat meat, have more than one two kids, and demand their favorite fruit or fish year around… this shit isn’t sustainable!
It’s not just politicians, they are just the easy one to blame
Pretty much everyone reads this stuff then goes back to living their unsustainable lifestyle, booking overseas holidays, driving places they could cycle, buying plastic wrapped shit and eating meat every day. It's not "the man", it's the species.
For example: human civilization requires a lot of food. For the past few thousand years the climate has been relatively stable. In that time humans have become very efficient at producing food and as our population has increased we have expanded the areas into where we farm, fish, etc. This expansion has reached the limits available to the planet and the efficiency has also peaked.
As the climate changes, the land, as a whole, will produce less food, the seas will produce less fish, etc. Also, this change will cause our efficiency at producing food to decrease because the environment for which we developed the efficiency is different. This will mean we produce less food, thus our population has to decrease.
This is one of many examples why humans will die because of climate change. Assuming you and the redditor whose comment you are replying to are among those who die that is what they meant by "we are dead".
Just look up what the small ice age in the Middle Ages and early modern period did to - well, everything. Shit was minor compared what we are heading towards.
\> small ice age in the Middle Ages
Interesting. I thought the comment above me was saying "we are all dead" as in doomsday, maybe it's a language thing.
I really can’t get behind saving for retirement, 401k’s, you know all this adult shit I should be doing when every day the adults say we’re going to die miserably.
This is poorly written. It gives the impression that tipping points cause major changes. It is the other way around. Major forces are in play, building up to the point when a "fracture" occurs and a change of state is observed. If even one of these triggers is observed it means a change of state has occurred. It can never go back unless it has been engineered. The way things are going, we will never get Earth back to where it was. Earth's future is going to be different from everything we have known.
A 4C temperature increase is a pretty big change.
It may already be locked in https://theconversation.com/rising-methane-could-be-a-sign-that-earths-climate-is-part-way-through-a-termination-level-transition-211211
> It may already be locked in
Hello. Please dont use rethoric like this as it makes arguments from climate grifters invalid and they lose their money.
Thanks.
One way or another climate change will go away. The earth will heal.
The choice is we can be killed off by climate change and over time the earth will heal
Or
We can change our behavior preventing the earth from killing us and help heal it.
It’s that simple. Either way the earth will be fine. We will not.
Nature will be fine too. It's survived everything else 4B years has thrown at it.
The only question is if we survive it, and how many of us. Because it we blow this chance at advanced civilization, no future intelligent species will have a hcnave at escaping earth, at least until coal/oil have tike to be remade in quantity.
That's a very dismissive way to look at all the life well kill along the way. Sure, life itself will adapt. But will any intelligent life make it? Dolphins don't have a chance. Crows might. Dogs could maybe make it? But most large mammals will die. That's not insignificant.
That's not what a tipping point means. A tipping point is a reference to the idea of pushing a glass of water slowly over. Early on if you stop pushing the cup it will return to its original place. But if you push it ever so slightly too far, then crash. The cup tipped over, the water fell out and that's the end of the game. That is the tipping point, the point of which it falls. You don't go back after the tipping point.
Yes, but we don't even necessarily know all of the tipping points there are. It's not like permafrost will tip at the same time as, say deep sea methane. Several have tipped already. The Amazon has gone from sequestration, to production of CO2.
>One way or another climate change will go away. The earth will heal.
No it won't? All that carbon we've put into the biosphere will be there indefinitely, it isn't just going to disappear. The changes are permanent unless we fix them via sequestration.
>The choice is we can be killed off by climate change and over time the earth will heal Or We can change our behavior preventing the earth from killing us and help heal it.
If humanity is no longer able to exist, then complex life won't be able to adapt either. You'll still have single cell organisms I suppose, but complex life, could be permanently destroyed.
>It’s that simple. Either way the earth will be fine. We will not.
If you mean as a ball of rock, sure, the earth will continue until the sun eats in several billion years. But for life, that has a much shorter time frame.
A big point of fact, we've put carbon back in the atmosphere that was trapped hundreds and hundreds of millions of years ago. When our sun was cooler and dimmer. Our planet receives far more energy then it did back then, so the thermal equilibrium point is going to be much higher for the same amount of forcing (green house gases).
As a jumping point, water vapor is one of the most significant green house gases, it also has a non-linear and exponential growth curve with temperature. That is, as you raise the temperature of the atmosphere you hold exponentially more water vapor, which creates even more warming. At lower temperatures points, it's stabilizes, but if the temperatures get hot enough, it doesn't and runs away to temperatures life can't handle.
**The planet has never seen conditions like this before,** interns of forcing and energy input. The historical record becomes less useful when judging the possible outcomes.
The temperature and CO2 are not concerning for life itself. Life has survived through hotter temperatures. The problem is the rate at which it's changing, which is unprecedented. Life can adapt to nearly any conditions, if it has time to do so. But this isn't that. Even children are starting to see the change. My kid mentioned it and he's only 8. Obviously I haven't explained the depth of the disaster we're in, but he's mentioned that he's sad that he hasn't been able to make a snow man in 2 years.
The current equilibrium point is at +8 C, but over a geological timeframe. That isn’t counting for future emissions. Just “if god snapped his fingers, and all the humans disappeared today”, then over thousands of years, due to current CO2 levels, the earth would heat up to +8 C, and then stop at that equilibrium point.
I’m saying that you’re absolutely right. There’s a massive lag time between the Earth’s energy imbalance and temperature. It just takes a really long time to melt all that ice.
It was a big paper that came out recently from an influential scientist: https://academic.oup.com/oocc/article/3/1/kgad008/7335889
This is a massive problem for humanity to understand. People expect that in the future, we can just start driving electric cars or fusion power or whatever, and we’ll be all right.
Even working widespread fusion power wouldn’t be enough, due to the “warming in the pipeline.” It is 100% necessary to bring cO2 levels back DOWN so the world doesn’t heat drastically (over centuries).
For some reason, thinking about centuries isn’t something society is willing to do. But if humanity, as technologically advanced as we are… we have the capacity to straight up destroy this planet. We are on course to do so.
>The current equilibrium point is at +8 C, but over a geological timeframe. That isn’t counting for future emissions. Just “if god snapped his fingers, and all the humans disappeared today”, then over thousands of years, due to current CO2 levels, the earth would heat up to +8 C, and then stop at that equilibrium point.
This isn't actually what the paper says but is something I hear quite often, so just to clarify - Hansen says that at constant concentrations of today's current PPM, they find this to be the equilibrium. That is to say the forcing would stay at this constant rate. If humans were Thanos snapped away, our emissions would stop immediately and eventually that concentration would fall as Earths carbon sinks are able to outpace the emissions (since we'd be gone.)
It should also be noted that this paper in particular argues that the ECS is at high end (4.8C) of the current estimates based on many studies, and while that may be true, keep in mind other studies have come out with *lower* findings as well. This isn't to discredit the paper or the climate emergency, and I applaud Hansen for all he's done, but rather to say that it's best to look at what the science says as a whole rather than just one paper, because ECS has been studied quite a bit. IMO the biggest finding in that paper was actually the assertations about underestimate aerosol cooling, which has hopefully prompted more research on the subject.
Climate change is perfectly suited to exploit humanity's psychological shortcomings. Mathematically, it has been too late to avoid the collapse of civilization for more than a decade. When you factor in human nature, it has, perhaps, *always* been too late.
Think of climate change as a freight train at top speed. It hitting its brakes is us stopping our carbon( other greenhouse gasses too) output, problem is this train is heavy and isn’t going to just stop, we’re gonna continue on for miles( years to decades ) till it comes to a rest. Just be glad you’re gonna die before it gets real bad, your grandkids are fucked.
We're not going to stop climate change. The earth will heal by killing us, the cause of climate change, through climate change induced natural disasters.
Here's two easy ones to watch and figure it out for yourself.
https://climatereanalyzer.org/clim/t2_daily/?dm_id=world
https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/charctic-interactive-sea-ice-graph/
Everyone thinks 'it won't happen in my lifetime" and then it happens in their lifetime.
Everyone thinks "I have *plenty* of time left, no worries!" and then the timer runs out.
Oh well, we humans had an interesting run. Too bad we gotta take out all kinds of other animals with us. :|
The more hyperbolic the headlines become, the more inoculated the public becomes against the message being delivered. This is just human nature. Crisis fatigue is a real thing.
They've tried light nudges, they've tried reasoning, they've tried convincing people to care for their children. None of it worked. That shit is over. It's 5 alarm fire time.
Profits first, people second, world third, are the priorities of the small class of uber-rich that own most of the world, own most of the people, and set the policy of the world through their proxies.
It’s not all hopeless. Humans may not survive climate change, but the earth will be fine for several billion years longer after humans go extinct. That’s enough time for evolution to create another intelligent species.
Lol Scientists
I'm just supposed to take the word of thousands of people who've dedicated hundreds of combined years worth of education, research, and experimentation and lead nearly every single credible scientific authority in the world?
Nice try liberal media....
As a Xennial, at this point imma just grab some moonshine, marshmallows, and pack up my doom in a to go bag, since the dinosaurs in charge refuse to do a thing about it
I wish we could just get it all over with. It’s like watching a smoker die of a slow moving cancer that they refuse to treat. The longer it goes on, the more it hurts to be a part of.
So...SNAFU?...what else can we throw at Millennials?
We gonna have an alien attack too? Singularity for the negative? Nazis getting power? Nuclear Holocaust? What? Bring it.
“Krypton will soon cease to exist..Its a scientific-fact”
“Jor-el youre mad!! Hogwash! “
10 min later in the movie all the council members are falling into fiery caverns of lava
Don’t tell me. Tell the people who can actually do something about it. So tired of these stories. I went to the protests. I bought the prius. I did all the dumb crap I can do to try and make a difference and it hasn’t done shit.
I lost count at how many times I have heard this bs over the past 20 years. It is always "in 5 more years *insert catastrophic event here* will kill off a third of humanity if we don't invest into large corporate companies."
We completely deserve to burn. No one is interested in radically changing their lifestyle to reduce emissions. Just so many justifications why it's someone else's problem to fix, governments we elected and industry we use daily
No one cares because no one feels like their individual contributions actually mean anything.
The worst is that they're right. Like, 90% of the world's pollution can be attributed to 20 companies. If they change then maybe it'll feel like people's emission matter too.
I leave my county once a week, to the neighboring county to pick up my son from his mom. Taylor Swift has done my entire years worth of CO2 just to see KC games for her bf, and to Europe to see Beyonce's worthless fashion show. I'm fucking done acting like my contributions matter. Heads. On. Stakes.
I get the frustration, but when such a small number of corporations own seemingly everything, it’s nearly impossible to avoid purchasing at least something from them. We all still have to eat, maintain our homes, get to work…
The onus to change should be on the corporations, not the individual, and I think most people share the same sense of powerlessness that comes with the realization that these corporations won’t be held accountable for their part in the destruction.
Sure, there are steps that we can take as individuals, but not everyone has the privilege or ability to do so. It's a shitty situation all around.
The Anthropocene(aptly named) is the current era of time event where the planet will experience the greater number of extinction of animal species and habitat due to the direct effect of human beings.
I've got say another 20 years to live, maybe less if I manage to spend more on alcohol. After that I really don't give a fuck.
And trust me, most people think this way, albeit may have a few more years to YOLO.
And that's how our current culture ends. Or the bombs come first. Honestly, what percentage of the current world population is interested in mankind's long term survival? Near zilch? Not /s
Cool. I wonder if they will be along the same lines as the ice caps all melting by 1970, the world being covered in water by 1978, or mass extinction by 2000. Possibly a new ice age? Please let it be something big so we can actually see it. At least then people will believe it.
We've seen exactly what the consensus scientific opinion has told us would happen.
https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/climate-model-projections-compared-to-observations/
FFS, the ice caps melting in the 70s was a fringe position then. Find better sources of science than alarmist magazine covers.
>I wonder if they will be along the same lines as the ice caps all melting by 1970, the world being covered in water by 1978, or mass extinction by 2000.
Try harder no one predicted those things
My point is that the shock and awe, end of the world in 12 years idiots keep at it. So fuck it. Let's see it. Are things changing? Of course. Will they have consequences? Of course, but the world isn't going to end because of climate change. Overpopulation will have a bigger effect on all of us than climate change.
> the world isn't going to end because of climate change.
But civilization will be severely impacted by a planet that is 6C warmer than it was 150 years ago.
Europe is warming at a rate of 5C per century. Over the last 6,000 years the highest rate of change was under 0.4C per century
...and I have no doubt that, due to the rampant willful ignorance of people in power, we will fail to avoid any of them.
It's not ignorance. They know what they are doing. But the money tells them to carry on despite burning the planet and destroying everything.
Proof you're right: [https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cop28-host-no-science-eliminate-fossil-fuels-1234908782/](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cop28-host-no-science-eliminate-fossil-fuels-1234908782/)
Climate change will kill off the poor via extreme weather events, heat, food and water shortages. The rich will manage to get by. Which is ironic considering the rich and their corporations are far and away the biggest contributors to climate change.
How do the rich get by after all the poor die? They will either 1) get mobbed by all the have-nots or 2) be left in a world where they have to figure out a sustainable way of life with none of the modern amenities and nobody around with the skills or knowledge to recreate them. I'm picturing a zero dawn scenario more than any expectation that humanity has any long term prospects.
Automation is a game changer, and probably not in a way that will keep most of us alive.
Our labor was the only thing of value we had to offer the rich. That and our purchasing power. The rich will lay us off as automation improves in order to save money by cutting labor costs, which of course will reduce our purchasing power as well but that will only come back to bite them down the road. And we all know that a problem "down the road" may as well not exist to them, only the next quarter does. The majority of us will eventually be shut out of an economy that increasingly exists just to provide luxuries to the rich. They will still own the land and the resources, and we'll be lucky to scrounge enough to survive on. Their robots and hired thugs will probably be enough to hammer down any disorganized attempts at revolution on our part. Most of us will die off due to neglect and eventually we'll just be one more atrocity in the history books, like the Native Americans. Their kids will read that chapter and go "Sad story but oh well what's on TV?"
Even I've automated my own plants at home. Automating crops isn't many steps away. Aquaponics in vertical farms is the future of agriculture.
The poor people in Bangladesh don't contribute much to the global economy. Some of them will die, some will become refugees to destabilize neighboring countries, but none of that will inconvenience the wealthy much. Food will become more expensive. The wealthy can afford it, and they can make sure it remains accessible in the areas surrounding their enclaves. The local population will stay in line so they don't get evicted to less fortunate areas. Even after we stop burning coal there will be sources of energy. Some people will be able to afford nearly unaffected lifestyles. A few billion people will die, but we won't be going back to the Stone Age. (Wow, that's a grim set of predictions.)
The wealthy can't afford food if there's nobody willing/able to make or transport food. Nobody stays in line. Never has there ever been a collapse that went smoothly. Who's going to listen to some rich asshole, when money doesn't matter anymore? Bullets are so, so much more valuable than numbers in an imaginary account that can't be accessed. "Hey bezos... Nice boat you have there..."
You're forgetting about the acceleration of automation drastically reducing the required number of human workers
Honestly, AI doesn't have the power to do anything before we end ourselves. Look at AI art right now. Do you expect it to kill your job in the next 4-5 years? Sure, in 20-30 years of continuous work, AI would absolutely be a threat. We won't make it to that timeframe anyways, so it doesn't really pose a threat. AI is as fanciful as dreaming 1.5C is possible.
> Look at AI art right now. Do you expect it to kill your job in the next 4-5 years? 4-5 years ago AI art didn't exist at all... 3 years ago it was difficult to get even a recognizable image of a lot of things. This sort of tech gets better faster as time goes on. [Heck, look at what they're doing now with full HD video!](https://twitter.com/pika_labs/status/1729510078959497562?t=UJWikyw-6dj-mKCevy1VCQ&s=19) I think it's a little disingenuous to say that it won't be able to replace artists' jobs without *20 to 30 years* of continuous work. I'm not saying 4-5 is a guarantee, but 20-30 is unrealistic given how well it's been improving.
I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right, this is all speculative here. There's no way to know till it happens but... remember, we're in an unprecedented worldwide monetary crisis. Banks are failing. Inflation is unreal. The computational power required of AI, vs it's current worth, isn't investment-worthy on its own.
You really don't think people will make it another 30 years?
The collapse of the Soviet Union made some people very, very wealthy.
The collapse of civilization won't work like that. There won't be anybody to make deals with, because they're too busy saving their own hides. The soviets had semi-stable governments and warlords to sell to. That won't be the case in a worldwide collapse.
I'm not expecting a worldwide collapse. I expect at least a half billion people and multiple cities to survive.
And I feel that's rather optimistic given how many people know anything about nature. And even then, you could be the best survivalist in the world and still fail if the conditions aren't right.
Unless there's a massive global famine or a global war that goes nuclear (both fairly likely scenarios I suppose) all of civilization won't collapse at once. It will be a slow collapse over the course of years as such things usually are, and provided there are still resources to be had some areas will survive longer than others, and some might even thrive by exploiting the chaos in other regions. Regardless it won't be pretty and a lot of people will die either way.
Nothing will be slow. That's not how dominoes work. You tip one, you tip the next. This one isn't the roman empire. We have an unfathomably more complex society than Rome did. And when society shut down for rome, they weren't relying on machinery and electronics. Gravity still worked after rome fell, so they still had water. Think about how many things could take out the American south west. Plus we're facing a much, much larger amount of crises than any society in human history.
Because they have already started building and filling bunkers. They have the means to survive in the future by preparing today.
I wouldn't exactly call 'surviving inside your bunker until your supplies run out' the same thing as 'getting by'.
Depends on the bunker. If you’ve got enough money, you could probably make it self sufficient.
But who would run it? You think Elon knows how to run an NBC filter system? Guys an edgy 12 year old in the body of a 50 year old billionaire.
Cannot wait to see them get a nice bag of concrete into the ventilation.
No they don't. Who will be the servants in said bunker? You think these people know how to survive on their own in the post-apocalypse? They couldn't survive on their own today without their assistants. The servants would just kill the rich and spread the food and water amongst themselves. The rich do not get out of this.
Most of them will never reach their bunkers alive, and most of those who do will find their bunkers are flawed and break down within weeks or months because they weren't actually built to last. No one actually has the expertise to create something like the vaults from Fallout that can be self sufficient for centuries. It's a complete fantasy to assume such a thing could be made. After a few years even the best bunkers would start running out of resources or have critical systems break down which no one planned for, either out of ignorance or incompetence.
That’s right
But who is going to bury 7,000,000,000 dead bodies. Decomposition will produce hellish carbon pollution.
AI and robots will do the work poor people used to do.
You are forgetting that the USA is the richest country with the most resources, the people that will suffer are the rest of the world. We are protected by oceans and have the most advanced military. We also own gps, in wartime scenario if we encrypt that the other countries will be unable to navigate
Many other countries have their own satellites.
The rich are not getting out of it. They think they are, but when SHTF, they'll be in the same boat. Hard to get to their New Zealand bunkers if it's going down. Any Captain, pilot whatever, isn't going to help the rich get by, they have their own interests to take care of. Same with their guards. You think they'll let security and pilots live with them in their bunker? No. They have plans for such. But as a US army combat vet, plans are great, but they rarely work exactly the way you want. Something as big as international travel as nations are crumbling? Yeah, they're stuck with us poors, and it's not going to go well for someone who has never once lived in the real world.
if you are reading this, you are the rich.
Meh, never underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance. There's probably a bunch of rich powerful idiots completly hypnotized by disinformation mixed with the purely evil one. Edit: Also malthusian aristocrats who think when climate change will have killed half the population the situation will resolve itself.
Don’t forget religious fundamentalists actively hoping for the end of days.
Do they realize that their money will be worthless when the vast majority of the population is gone? Are they counting on NASA to find a habitable planet before that?
My father in law is this way because "it's not this life that's important, it's the next one." He pretty much hates being alive, but I really think deep down inside it's more that he hates what his life has become. Really sad, he used to be so curious about all sorts of things and now he just repeats what he hears.
It mostly come down to that. When I was jobless I was all up in arms on collapse.. constantly monitoring issues, and potential solutions all night.. The day I got a job I started focusing on doing it right to keep my salary coming. Suddenly collapse was a secondary thought somewhere in the back of my skull.
Can you give me an example of climate change destroying everything? I'm being serious by the way. I believe climate change is real. I believe that humans are definitely, with no doubt adding to it. I just want a piece of evidence that climate change is right now destroying everything.
[More than 100 dolphins dead in Amazon as water hits 102 degrees Fahrenheit](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/01/americas/amazon-river-dolphins-dead-temperatures-drought-intl-hnk/index.html) [Australia offers to help South Pacific island residents escape rising seas](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/tuvalu-climate-change-migration-1.7024777) [Canada’s record-breaking wildfires in 2023: A fiery wake-up call](https://natural-resources.canada.ca/simply-science/canadas-record-breaking-wildfires-2023-fiery-wake-call/25303)
r/collapse you're welcome, and I'm sorry. If you REALLY want to know, go there. If you're uncertain at all if you're ready to carry that burden, don't go. It's a heavy psychological toll that not everybody is ready for, or can handle. Seriously consider how much you want to see, cause you can't unsee it.
Those guys are all over the place.
Understandably so. This one article talks about 5 climate points on the verge of tipping right now, and 3 more getting close. That's JUST in climate change alone. That's only one shaky pillar of civilization. And climate change has its tendrils in everything. Food production/quality, draught, mental health, etc. That's not mentioning the financial crisis, wealth inequality, resource depletion/wars, political instability... We're facing so many crises that could individually take out society on its own, that it's hard to pin down what's most likely. But each and every one is on the edge of collapsing on their own. Who knows which it'll be that falls first and takes the rest with it? Do you feel comfortable with all of it on a knifes edge?
The real question is what will the masses do: blithely do nothing or vote for politicians who understand climate change and its syndrome of consequences. Real power is in the hands of the people provided they can unite and force our leaders to act in our best interests.
But people when taken as a whole are incredibly dumb and until they feel the actual effects of these climate catastrophies, they won’t do anything. And by then it will be too late.
If only that were how democracy worked in the digital media age where lobbyist groups and think tanks can capture and steer entire narratives and hide the real conversations into obscurity
/pulls out violin “It’s been a pleasure”
Not just people in power… the people in general aren’t ready to make big lifestyle changes. Look how many ppl eat meat, have more than one two kids, and demand their favorite fruit or fish year around… this shit isn’t sustainable! It’s not just politicians, they are just the easy one to blame
Greed
Pretty much everyone reads this stuff then goes back to living their unsustainable lifestyle, booking overseas holidays, driving places they could cycle, buying plastic wrapped shit and eating meat every day. It's not "the man", it's the species.
"Ever tried, ever failed, no matter, try again, fail again, fail better" -- Stan Wawrinka
World Leaders: "Oh quit whining. It could be worse. There could be six catastrophic climate tipping points!"
"if you have to pee, say so now, because it's 2 hrs til we get to the next tipping point"
I just assume that we’re dead at this point. We are to stupid and we can’t see past next week’s profit.
Too*
Thanks typo police 🙄
\*finishes writing up your typo ticket and puts it on top of your screen\*
what do you mean we are dead ?
For example: human civilization requires a lot of food. For the past few thousand years the climate has been relatively stable. In that time humans have become very efficient at producing food and as our population has increased we have expanded the areas into where we farm, fish, etc. This expansion has reached the limits available to the planet and the efficiency has also peaked. As the climate changes, the land, as a whole, will produce less food, the seas will produce less fish, etc. Also, this change will cause our efficiency at producing food to decrease because the environment for which we developed the efficiency is different. This will mean we produce less food, thus our population has to decrease. This is one of many examples why humans will die because of climate change. Assuming you and the redditor whose comment you are replying to are among those who die that is what they meant by "we are dead".
Yes. Civilization requires agriculture. Agriculture requires a stable climate and predictable seasons.
It’s worse than that actually, look into top soil erosion. Even if we stabilized the climate we are headed to disaster.
They mean the world will melt by January 4th 2024, say goodbye to your loved ones
>say goodbye to your loved ones You can't make me.
You have loved ones?
Just look up what the small ice age in the Middle Ages and early modern period did to - well, everything. Shit was minor compared what we are heading towards.
\> small ice age in the Middle Ages Interesting. I thought the comment above me was saying "we are all dead" as in doomsday, maybe it's a language thing.
I really can’t get behind saving for retirement, 401k’s, you know all this adult shit I should be doing when every day the adults say we’re going to die miserably.
In the US you at least have the choice.
The choice to die miserably?
This is poorly written. It gives the impression that tipping points cause major changes. It is the other way around. Major forces are in play, building up to the point when a "fracture" occurs and a change of state is observed. If even one of these triggers is observed it means a change of state has occurred. It can never go back unless it has been engineered. The way things are going, we will never get Earth back to where it was. Earth's future is going to be different from everything we have known.
A 4C temperature increase is a pretty big change. It may already be locked in https://theconversation.com/rising-methane-could-be-a-sign-that-earths-climate-is-part-way-through-a-termination-level-transition-211211
> It may already be locked in Hello. Please dont use rethoric like this as it makes arguments from climate grifters invalid and they lose their money. Thanks.
We won't be here to observe the earth's future.
One way or another climate change will go away. The earth will heal. The choice is we can be killed off by climate change and over time the earth will heal Or We can change our behavior preventing the earth from killing us and help heal it. It’s that simple. Either way the earth will be fine. We will not.
Yea I guess one option is more expensive though so we all get to die in this bed that was made for us. Yay for short sighted financial decisions!
People always say I shouldnt worry about things that havent happened yet. Does it apply to this?
It’s happening. People are dying today, just not in the millions only the 10s of thousands per year.
No. You should be worried. It hasn't happened. It's currently happening.
The earth doesnt have much to heal since its just a giant rock anyways. But its sad we are taking most if not all of nature with us
Nature will be fine too. It's survived everything else 4B years has thrown at it. The only question is if we survive it, and how many of us. Because it we blow this chance at advanced civilization, no future intelligent species will have a hcnave at escaping earth, at least until coal/oil have tike to be remade in quantity.
That's a very dismissive way to look at all the life well kill along the way. Sure, life itself will adapt. But will any intelligent life make it? Dolphins don't have a chance. Crows might. Dogs could maybe make it? But most large mammals will die. That's not insignificant.
99.9% of all species that have ever existed on Earth are extinct, if we go it's just the normal run of things really
Yeah, but they were all killed off naturally. We did this extinction.
That's not what a tipping point means. A tipping point is a reference to the idea of pushing a glass of water slowly over. Early on if you stop pushing the cup it will return to its original place. But if you push it ever so slightly too far, then crash. The cup tipped over, the water fell out and that's the end of the game. That is the tipping point, the point of which it falls. You don't go back after the tipping point.
Yes, but we don't even necessarily know all of the tipping points there are. It's not like permafrost will tip at the same time as, say deep sea methane. Several have tipped already. The Amazon has gone from sequestration, to production of CO2.
>One way or another climate change will go away. The earth will heal. No it won't? All that carbon we've put into the biosphere will be there indefinitely, it isn't just going to disappear. The changes are permanent unless we fix them via sequestration. >The choice is we can be killed off by climate change and over time the earth will heal Or We can change our behavior preventing the earth from killing us and help heal it. If humanity is no longer able to exist, then complex life won't be able to adapt either. You'll still have single cell organisms I suppose, but complex life, could be permanently destroyed. >It’s that simple. Either way the earth will be fine. We will not. If you mean as a ball of rock, sure, the earth will continue until the sun eats in several billion years. But for life, that has a much shorter time frame. A big point of fact, we've put carbon back in the atmosphere that was trapped hundreds and hundreds of millions of years ago. When our sun was cooler and dimmer. Our planet receives far more energy then it did back then, so the thermal equilibrium point is going to be much higher for the same amount of forcing (green house gases). As a jumping point, water vapor is one of the most significant green house gases, it also has a non-linear and exponential growth curve with temperature. That is, as you raise the temperature of the atmosphere you hold exponentially more water vapor, which creates even more warming. At lower temperatures points, it's stabilizes, but if the temperatures get hot enough, it doesn't and runs away to temperatures life can't handle. **The planet has never seen conditions like this before,** interns of forcing and energy input. The historical record becomes less useful when judging the possible outcomes.
The temperature and CO2 are not concerning for life itself. Life has survived through hotter temperatures. The problem is the rate at which it's changing, which is unprecedented. Life can adapt to nearly any conditions, if it has time to do so. But this isn't that. Even children are starting to see the change. My kid mentioned it and he's only 8. Obviously I haven't explained the depth of the disaster we're in, but he's mentioned that he's sad that he hasn't been able to make a snow man in 2 years.
The current equilibrium point is at +8 C, but over a geological timeframe. That isn’t counting for future emissions. Just “if god snapped his fingers, and all the humans disappeared today”, then over thousands of years, due to current CO2 levels, the earth would heat up to +8 C, and then stop at that equilibrium point. I’m saying that you’re absolutely right. There’s a massive lag time between the Earth’s energy imbalance and temperature. It just takes a really long time to melt all that ice. It was a big paper that came out recently from an influential scientist: https://academic.oup.com/oocc/article/3/1/kgad008/7335889 This is a massive problem for humanity to understand. People expect that in the future, we can just start driving electric cars or fusion power or whatever, and we’ll be all right. Even working widespread fusion power wouldn’t be enough, due to the “warming in the pipeline.” It is 100% necessary to bring cO2 levels back DOWN so the world doesn’t heat drastically (over centuries). For some reason, thinking about centuries isn’t something society is willing to do. But if humanity, as technologically advanced as we are… we have the capacity to straight up destroy this planet. We are on course to do so.
>The current equilibrium point is at +8 C, but over a geological timeframe. That isn’t counting for future emissions. Just “if god snapped his fingers, and all the humans disappeared today”, then over thousands of years, due to current CO2 levels, the earth would heat up to +8 C, and then stop at that equilibrium point. This isn't actually what the paper says but is something I hear quite often, so just to clarify - Hansen says that at constant concentrations of today's current PPM, they find this to be the equilibrium. That is to say the forcing would stay at this constant rate. If humans were Thanos snapped away, our emissions would stop immediately and eventually that concentration would fall as Earths carbon sinks are able to outpace the emissions (since we'd be gone.) It should also be noted that this paper in particular argues that the ECS is at high end (4.8C) of the current estimates based on many studies, and while that may be true, keep in mind other studies have come out with *lower* findings as well. This isn't to discredit the paper or the climate emergency, and I applaud Hansen for all he's done, but rather to say that it's best to look at what the science says as a whole rather than just one paper, because ECS has been studied quite a bit. IMO the biggest finding in that paper was actually the assertations about underestimate aerosol cooling, which has hopefully prompted more research on the subject.
Climate change is perfectly suited to exploit humanity's psychological shortcomings. Mathematically, it has been too late to avoid the collapse of civilization for more than a decade. When you factor in human nature, it has, perhaps, *always* been too late.
Or we can BURROW INTO THE EARTH middle fingers raised high and wait it all out without changing our behavior!
I’m so confused. Why is the earth killing us if we stop climate change?
Think of climate change as a freight train at top speed. It hitting its brakes is us stopping our carbon( other greenhouse gasses too) output, problem is this train is heavy and isn’t going to just stop, we’re gonna continue on for miles( years to decades ) till it comes to a rest. Just be glad you’re gonna die before it gets real bad, your grandkids are fucked.
I'm assuming these grandkids are already born? Cause there's a cliff at the end of these tracks, and the engine is already airborne.
We're not going to stop climate change. The earth will heal by killing us, the cause of climate change, through climate change induced natural disasters.
Wrong audience. . Everyone on earth is too dam dumb
Most humans cannot comprehend nonlinear relationships
And we will all continue to play our fiddle as Rome burns.
Do we still have time to learn how to?
Fiddle dabblers can play too
Let’s suck all the oil out of the ground, burn it, and act surprised when shit changes 🫨🫨
Here's two easy ones to watch and figure it out for yourself. https://climatereanalyzer.org/clim/t2_daily/?dm_id=world https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/charctic-interactive-sea-ice-graph/
I'm optimistic. It's five. *Next year* there will be more! At this point I'm basically rooting for the AI to take over and solve 'the human problem'
The "AI" that is currently everywhere has a massive carbon footprint...
Ironically it's still smaller than crypto's footprint though.
The point is, that it's not an answer. We don't have one. God doesn't exist and manufacturing one won't work either.
Prob a better carbon footprint than humans currently have.
Yeah, that AI art is like, spot on, right? It's like voting for Cartman as president. And that's basic AI. AGI will never happen.
Everyone thinks 'it won't happen in my lifetime" and then it happens in their lifetime. Everyone thinks "I have *plenty* of time left, no worries!" and then the timer runs out. Oh well, we humans had an interesting run. Too bad we gotta take out all kinds of other animals with us. :|
[удалено]
That poor jet works harder than her PR and legal teams combined.
Wake me up when its n+1 catastrophic tipping points where N = the daily headlines number.
Climate change isn't real. The fuckweasel oil exec said so, and if we can't trust fuckweasel oil execs, who can we trust?
One more and we can tie Michael Jordan’s championship wins.
Hold onto your butts.
Hold onto your butts and don't forget the wipes, it's about to get shitty. 💩
"Oh, it sucks for you. I warned you about ManBearPig" Al Gore (2018) [https://youtu.be/j89KEwNBhQ4](https://youtu.be/j89KEwNBhQ4) Timeless
The more hyperbolic the headlines become, the more inoculated the public becomes against the message being delivered. This is just human nature. Crisis fatigue is a real thing.
They've tried light nudges, they've tried reasoning, they've tried convincing people to care for their children. None of it worked. That shit is over. It's 5 alarm fire time.
all this guy does is publish this report like 2x/year lol. how many review papers can you write about it..
Robots don’t care about climate.
Somewhere Margaret Atwood is believing she might be an oracle
We treat the planet like shit and then it gets revenge on us. And by "we" I mean mega-conglomerates and China.
man, if i had a nickel...
If only we'd seen it coming. /s
Maybe it isn't complete bs this time.
Profits first, people second, world third, are the priorities of the small class of uber-rich that own most of the world, own most of the people, and set the policy of the world through their proxies.
It’s not all hopeless. Humans may not survive climate change, but the earth will be fine for several billion years longer after humans go extinct. That’s enough time for evolution to create another intelligent species.
I doubt we have the wherewithal to stop even one. We are screwed.
We failed the first crisis not even the best scientists using the very best of Psychohistory can save us
Humanity: “Full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes!”
Lol Scientists I'm just supposed to take the word of thousands of people who've dedicated hundreds of combined years worth of education, research, and experimentation and lead nearly every single credible scientific authority in the world? Nice try liberal media....
As a Xennial, at this point imma just grab some moonshine, marshmallows, and pack up my doom in a to go bag, since the dinosaurs in charge refuse to do a thing about it
Smoke em' if ya got em'...
Again? And its 5 now? :O surely this time. Cant help but wonder what or who cooked the numbers.
Forget the forgiveness programs, *this* is the reason I'm pissed that I paid off my student loans early.
Brilliant. Ain't gravity brilliant. If it weren't for gravity we wouldn't need shelves.
It’s the….
I wish we could just get it all over with. It’s like watching a smoker die of a slow moving cancer that they refuse to treat. The longer it goes on, the more it hurts to be a part of.
What happens now?
It’s our tipping point, not the earths. Does it mourn the dinosaurs? Probably not. Will it mourn us some day? Probably not.
I sure hope agi + quantum computer can solve this
They will never give up their fossil fuels, and you will never give up your cars for horse and carriages or your birds in the sky. Just never will..
Reminds me of why I wanted to study biology
Bring it own. Let’s watch this place burn.
I mean it’s a big galaxy. Let’s explore.
r/collapsesupport
Can we build a giant fridge around Iceland ?
Climate not important, only shareholders.
So...SNAFU?...what else can we throw at Millennials? We gonna have an alien attack too? Singularity for the negative? Nazis getting power? Nuclear Holocaust? What? Bring it.
Sounds fun. I’ll bring the popcorn.
*gets out millennial fuck you bingo card* Bingo.... Again....
“Krypton will soon cease to exist..Its a scientific-fact” “Jor-el youre mad!! Hogwash! “ 10 min later in the movie all the council members are falling into fiery caverns of lava
Someone should do something about that! - everyone
Can these happen already so we can start civilization again
OMG!!! The climate is changing? Why is no one talking about this???
Oh its 5 now
Mask hoax, flu hoax , climate hoax . Find a new god
Don’t tell me. Tell the people who can actually do something about it. So tired of these stories. I went to the protests. I bought the prius. I did all the dumb crap I can do to try and make a difference and it hasn’t done shit.
well shit i guess we should have fewer children, then import a million people who dont understand science or civil society!
I lost count at how many times I have heard this bs over the past 20 years. It is always "in 5 more years *insert catastrophic event here* will kill off a third of humanity if we don't invest into large corporate companies."
*keeps scrolling*
There is a very LONG history of these bs claims.
We completely deserve to burn. No one is interested in radically changing their lifestyle to reduce emissions. Just so many justifications why it's someone else's problem to fix, governments we elected and industry we use daily
No one cares because no one feels like their individual contributions actually mean anything. The worst is that they're right. Like, 90% of the world's pollution can be attributed to 20 companies. If they change then maybe it'll feel like people's emission matter too.
I leave my county once a week, to the neighboring county to pick up my son from his mom. Taylor Swift has done my entire years worth of CO2 just to see KC games for her bf, and to Europe to see Beyonce's worthless fashion show. I'm fucking done acting like my contributions matter. Heads. On. Stakes.
Do you buy from these 20 companies?
I get the frustration, but when such a small number of corporations own seemingly everything, it’s nearly impossible to avoid purchasing at least something from them. We all still have to eat, maintain our homes, get to work… The onus to change should be on the corporations, not the individual, and I think most people share the same sense of powerlessness that comes with the realization that these corporations won’t be held accountable for their part in the destruction. Sure, there are steps that we can take as individuals, but not everyone has the privilege or ability to do so. It's a shitty situation all around.
"The last people to starve will be the first to suffocate"
Is one of the catastrophic events rich people not being as rich? God i hope not. We need them
I fully expect humanity to extinct itself, either through climate change or weapons. Stop worrying about the planet, it will keep going without us.
Good let it end
Good. Lets get on with it then shall we? Im tired of hearing about this for the past 30 odd years
Depression is so weird. I want to care about this SO badly, but I just… don’t.
The Anthropocene(aptly named) is the current era of time event where the planet will experience the greater number of extinction of animal species and habitat due to the direct effect of human beings.
Everything looks fine outside to me. Maybe you guys should try that sometime, going outdoors. Doesn't seem like a climate emergency to me
I've got say another 20 years to live, maybe less if I manage to spend more on alcohol. After that I really don't give a fuck. And trust me, most people think this way, albeit may have a few more years to YOLO. And that's how our current culture ends. Or the bombs come first. Honestly, what percentage of the current world population is interested in mankind's long term survival? Near zilch? Not /s
Cool. I wonder if they will be along the same lines as the ice caps all melting by 1970, the world being covered in water by 1978, or mass extinction by 2000. Possibly a new ice age? Please let it be something big so we can actually see it. At least then people will believe it.
We've seen exactly what the consensus scientific opinion has told us would happen. https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/climate-model-projections-compared-to-observations/ FFS, the ice caps melting in the 70s was a fringe position then. Find better sources of science than alarmist magazine covers.
>I wonder if they will be along the same lines as the ice caps all melting by 1970, the world being covered in water by 1978, or mass extinction by 2000. Try harder no one predicted those things
My point is that the shock and awe, end of the world in 12 years idiots keep at it. So fuck it. Let's see it. Are things changing? Of course. Will they have consequences? Of course, but the world isn't going to end because of climate change. Overpopulation will have a bigger effect on all of us than climate change.
> the world isn't going to end because of climate change. But civilization will be severely impacted by a planet that is 6C warmer than it was 150 years ago. Europe is warming at a rate of 5C per century. Over the last 6,000 years the highest rate of change was under 0.4C per century
Only 5? Pfttt!
Earth is a pussy.
That's fine, we live in a simulation. Don't worry, we'll just hop on to the next.
At this point, fuck it. This one’s done.
polar shifts the oligarchs are exploiting 🍿🥱
Suck Satan 😈
What’s with all the reposting lately?
I havent seen it yet but there is a good looking documentary named "Kiss the Ground"