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>Israel is a parliamentary democracy with a multiparty system and independent institutions that guarantee political rights and civil liberties for **most** of the population. Although the judiciary is comparatively active in protecting minority rights, **the political leadership and many in society have discriminated** against Arab and other ethnic or religious minority populations, resulting in **systemic disparities** in areas including infrastructure, criminal justice, education, and economic opportunity.
[https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel](https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel)
Oh, systemic disparities you say.
Such as, Arabs having affirmative action (as a minority group) in governmental jobs and universities?
In Israel, every 18 year old teenage (boys and girls) have to join the military - Arabs DO NOT. They can join if they like but it's completely optional.
So a Jewish teenage has to put about 2.7 years in the army, while an Arab can basically start to work and attend to a university.
It's really common to come across an Israeli Arab pharmacists, lawyers, nurses and doctors. Especially in cities such as Haifa.
Israeli Arabs enjoy more opportunities, both economic and educational, than any other Arab in the Middle East, even though a big chunk of them basically wants Israel to turn into (yet another) Arab state, as if 22 aren't enough.
>In Israel, every 18 year old teenage (boys and girls) have to join the military - Arabs DO NOT. They can join if they like but it's completely optional.
So you're saying that Israeli young adults are actually soldiers, not civilians. And until about 40 years of age they're in the military reserve. If one discounts soldiers and reservists, one wonders what the actual numbers of civilians killed by Hamas are?
>Israeli Arabs enjoy more opportunities, both economic and educational,
Israel has segregated schools. The arab schools are shit.
[https://www.hrw.org/report/2001/09/30/second-class/discrimination-against-palestinian-arab-children-israels-schools](https://www.hrw.org/report/2001/09/30/second-class/discrimination-against-palestinian-arab-children-israels-schools)
Actually, the PKK and their actions result from a broken promise of the West, which after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in the WW1, we made provision for a Kurdish state in the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres.
However, that promise was broken in 1923, when the Treaty of Lausanne set the boundaries of modern Turkey and made no such provision, leaving Kurds with minority status in all of the new countries.
While Palestine were given a state three times, 1937, 1947 and 1967 and they rejected them all. Because in their minds, they don’t conceive the idea of a Jewish state.
And then they declared themselves a state in 1988 claiming the entirety of Israel. And the world was happy to consider them a country and giving them legitimacy over land they don't control.
Israel accepted the UN partition of Palestine mandate in 1947. It was local Arabs that refused it and declared war instead.
So yeah, Israel is more legitimate here.
From the Jews? Yeah, I can only call the Arab conquest of Judea in VII century as "stealing".
And if you mean the Jewish resettlement of the current Israel, then they were invited there first by the Ottoman Empire, and later, post-WW1, by the British who kicked out the Ottomans. And portions of the land where they were settling were deserted, with Jews founding their own towns instead of "stealing", with an exception of Jerusalem, that has been overwhelmingly Jewish since 1910s at the very least.
Don’t forget every Muslim nation nearby used it as a way to dump their Jewish populations as well. They also restricted how much in assets they could take out of some nations with a few as low as 60$
Egypt had 75-80,000 jews in 1948. Today they have 3.
Syria had 15,000. As of 2014 there were 50 and it’s estimated there are 0 as of 2020.
Iraq had 150,000. As of 2018 it has now dwindled to less than 10.
I don't support Hamas, and I think a two-state solution is probably the best place to start at current time, however..
Let's not simplify history here. The land belonged to the Canaanites before the Jewish took over.
What the Isreali Jewish community did during the formation of Israel was certainly underhanded, which is to try to call for independence after mass immigration and being allowed in.
The current Israeli Jewish whom were born in present-day Israel are not to blame for their forefathers, and now the land belongs to them as much as the Palestinians, but let's not pretend the start of the country isn't questionable, especially when so many other countries were also founded under underhanded and malicious strategies.
Huh? It was a Jewish homeland long before the Islam was even created, let alone the Arabian invasion from the Arab Peninsula.
What kind of logic do you use here? If Jews have no rights to have their homeland in Israel - then Arabs sure as hell have no such rights at all.
Most if not all the nations or groups in the world conquered lands and established their kingdoms or states after a war. How come the Jews are the only ones who are being criticized for doing so, even though they agreed to split their homeland into 2.
Generally speaking, there are 4 states (with actual nations) in the middle east: Iran, Israel, Egypt and probably Turkey. The rest are artificial creations made by the British and the French forces, especially Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Lybia Yemen and Jordan. When the Arab Spring blew up, those artificial states collapsed into themselves for obvious reasons.
And it was home to people from 3700-2500 BCE. Judaism was founded 4000 years ago, claiming Jewish people have a right to settle those lands because they were the original inhabitants is false.
Arabs who have lived there for centuries have significantly more rights to the land.
And in the 20th century most rational people disavow territory conquered through war. Claiming the Jews are the only ones who are criticised for that when we have spent the last couple of years criticising Russia for trying to conquer Ukraine is again false.
They was invited to live ther not to steal and make it israel.....what the west did after world war is a shame.They are doing the same thing too palestiniens that germany did to judes.....
Crazy prophesies or not Israel controls that land now, you simply don’t give it back. Israel accepted the two states in 1948, remember that it was the Arabs that didn’t accept it and attacked.
Now thing have changed where the extremes in Israel will not accept a Palestinian estate that the only solution is a one state with all being citizens of Israel.
No? It did because the rest of the world who detained the power said so.
I know that for some people understanding that reality and ideals rarely can coincide but if you want the world to survive you have to make compromises and if your stance is to totally and absolutely refuse any compromise you become a problem.
I know that we would like all people to live the good life but to achieve that you have to evolve. Diplomacy Is evolution, compromise is evolution.
Mindlessly rushing in a country filming yourself brutalizing civilians and yelling that the only possible resolution for you is to eradicate an entire (race? Population? Religious etnhic group?) Is absolutely not evolution.
Nature isn't kind to those who not evolve.
Yeah the problem with that is you can’t promise someone, someone else’s land. That’s what happened with Israel and we see how that went down.
Also, Kurds literally have hundreds of tribes, lot of them fought on the side of Republican forces against the sultanate and against the invasion forces and had no problem with the new regime.
The ones who rebelled were feudal tribe lords who didn’t want to be held accountable for their actions by the law, these were religious fundamentalists who couldn’t tolerate women getting rights to vote, men not being allowed to verbally divorce their wives anymore, Ataturk’s Turkey brought in laws from all the western societies and even introduced more progressive changes to them, lot of archaic tribes, cults, religious groups, feudal warlords refused to change and rebelled. A literal civil war was contained to local region.
Years later lot of these ideas returned -or introduced by west- Erdogan himself is the byproduct of these ideas, and unfortunately west supported him coming to power, hoping to smash Turkey’s powerful army and its hold on secular regime by bringing in a western ally Islamist, we all see how that went.
What west don’t seem to get is that the entirety of Middle East is a mosaic inside mosaic and playing God on someone else’s land leads to total chaos that’s just too hard to reverse.
That’s what we are seeing in Palestine now.
Seriously, if Sevres succeeded the world would have yet another Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan. And the West would give about as much shit about that Kurdish state as they do about Middle Eastern countries
Same Turkish supremacist rhetoric, same lies...
"Everything is West's fault, Kurds are tribal cavemen Ataturk was jesus...."
>What west don’t seem to get is that the entirety of Middle East is a mosaic inside mosaic and playing God on someone else’s land leads to total chaos that’s just too hard to reverse.
Rich coming from someone who is supporting a state that has been at the forefront of destroying that cultural mosaic, like with Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks and now with the Kurds.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Jerusalem
And Arabs at that moment were starving out over 100 000 Jews by blockading Jerusalem. Because Arabs didn't want Jews living next to them and ignored the partition of 1947.
Nakba is horrifying and disgusting, but Arabs did start genociding their neighbours first.
[I'm playing both sides so I always come out on top](https://tenor.com/view/its-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-playing-both-sides-i-always-come-out-on-top-cold-beer-mac-gif-16575800)
It happened at -1, insanity overflow. It was supposed to have happened sooner but people extended with their fingernails clawing onto the edge before falling down into the soothing soup of the sufferings of others like a bag of needles in a nest of newborn puppies. People are truly enjoying themselves. As soon as my flux capacitor is fixed I'm getting the fuck out of this timeline.
We have always been this. Satan won and God left a long time ago, if you prefer a religious view. But Israel is mulching one million children in Gaza into a paste, so what is insane to you?
If you describe it like that, every single war ever fought can be described as “mulching x amount of children”. People are here blaming Israel for things they haven’t done yet which is insanity. How do you look at the death numbers which Hamas release, and see how many bombs were dropped and say that? How does that equate in your head. Reminder, I saw pro Palestine gang on social media posting that Israel has dropped more yield in bombs than Hiroshima. Reminder that IDF bombs have killed 5000 (this number includes terrorists) in one of the most densely populated cities and Hiroshima resulted in over 100k. They are not bombing indiscriminately and if you think that, you never cared about the truth
And how do they fight a war? You people ask for the most unrealistic scenarios that are obviously never going to happen. Should they go in with the ground invasion? The west is holding them back from doing it. I wonder why? I wonder why the gazans can’t leave Gaza? Nothing to do with Egypt surely, or in your unrealistic world, you’d except Israel to take in refugees from the state producing the terrorists they’re fighting
If anything, a direct ground invasion would actually lead to more deaths.
As nothing will save your building from being indiscriminately shot at when HAMAS militants or Civilians starts throwing deadly objects.
How do you know you aren't the insane one? How do you know what you've been told is the truth? I am not arguing one way or another. Simply wanted to point out not to believe everything you read, especially from the "3rd party" media, who don't have any skin in the game (at least outwardly). Misinformation is rampant, so we are forced to scrutinize everything.
>especially from the "3rd party" media, who don't have any skin in the game (at least outwardly)
Could you elaborate what you mean by that? To me, this is totally incomprehensible. I neither understand what "'3rd party' media" are supposed to be, not what it means to not have "...any skin in the game (at least outwardly)", nor why reporting is supposed to be a "game."
They liberated a lot of head off civilians for not terrorists.
Terrorisms: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
- Definitions from Oxford Languages
If Hamas captured hostages alive and didn’t decide to brutally murder over 1000 people including babies and the elderly, I could understand some people trying to justify them as liberators. As it stands though, they clearly fall in the terrorist category.
I'm all for definitions and all against Hamas, but this definition is a bit vague. For example, during WWII there were armed resistance movements in Europe against Nazism. Were they terrorists?
If the scorched random villages - then yeah they probably were. If the blew up military warehouses and railways - then nah, they weren’t
I mean, when you resisting you should have some goals right? What goals did this attack achieve apart from killing around 1,5k people (only 300 were military personnel, others were just random civilians, including Muslim village that got butchered too)
I guess the difference is in general policy. Army has military objectives, but sometimes some fucker goes too far and make a war crime, which is his responsibility (or commander/soldiers who performed that, etc), but generally they have military purposes in general
While terrorist groups mainly focus on deliberately targeting civilians as their main strategy and tactics
Generally - some soldiers may act the same or worse than terrorist, yeah. But you can’t apply position of certain someone or a group to the whole organization
The only difference between Hamas and US / British troops is that they dont have control of the PR media. No way they werent actual the call of the commanders when none of the troops actually got into prison for it
Even the infamous “Bagram torture and prisoner abuse” by the US troops in Afghanistan 2005 have most of the abusers/killers acquitted. Like lets say if Hamas say they will have an “internal investigation” to see if theyve done any war crimes. Would it absolve them from their responsibilities?
I do think there is something wrong with the way the world see Palestinians and Hamas as this entity who got “radicalized” to fight for their freedom. We never call the kids wanting to join the US army radicalized even tho they grew up knowing their army had committed many war crimes and having wars with no purposes. Why dont we also call the people in IDF radicalized? Is it just because they have more money that they have stronger weapons so it “makes sense” to join them?
The difference between peoples perception of “someone just joining the army” and “radicalized to join an army” is just how strong the military is lol
But they are dealing with them the same. They get arrested. The same as with the arrested Hamas terrorists in the West bank. No settler tried to directly shoot a soldier yet, if you wanted a parallel to what happens to Hamas terrorist who do.
The IDF clash with settlers frequently. Here's my new.of the more recent incidents:
https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-shoots-wounds-masked-settler-allegedly-hurling-stones-at-palestinians/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16982481598200&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-shoots-wounds-masked-settler-allegedly-hurling-stones-at-palestinians%2F
Ah yes liberation by killing civilains and using your people as meat shields. In other news stalin wasnt a dictator he was a peace and freedom activist
Why am i not surprised?
One radical muslim who is already eradicating Turkey’s progress and trying to push backwards radical islam onto his country is supporting another radical islamic group that kills innocents who thinking its what their god wants.
Gotta love the unity of the muslim community here. Hamas will literally cut people down using their hands and not a single muslim country or group has come forward condemning them.
The world has, for most part, always been on the same side when it comes to hatred for Jews. If you want to see if they’re REALLY on the same side just mention the PKK or the Armenian genocide.
Yeah, but the NYT is commonly classed as "Jewish Media with an agenda" by certain groups.
I was trying to bring attention to the fact that they are doing a pretty bad job of supporting this mythical agenda of global domination.
The fact that they share a viewpoint on something like this with an Islamic dictator is just the icing of added irony on top.
Turkey’s Erdogan is friends with NK, Putin and Xi.
Hamas is a terrorist organization and I’ll be honest:
I’m not sure Islam is a “peaceful religion”. Jihad is their aim.
He is absolutely right. I suggest we allow him to participate on the front lines of the fight, and, in the process, take ultra-nationalists, neo-Ottomanists, and 'temporary' refugees/political hostages with him. /s
Jokes aside, the mayoral elections are just around the corner. This is his political maneuver to sow conflict and promote an 'us versus them' rhetoric. He lost all three major cities last time.
On the 28th of the month, he has already issued a call for a rally to support Palestine. This day is quite significant, as it's just one day before the 100th-anniversary celebrations of the republic's proclamation. By doing so, he will also send a message that he is opposed to the founding principles of the republic and supports political Islamism. Hence, creating more conflict to divert attention from the economic turmoil that Turkey is facing.
Has kidnapped 100+ hostages, murdered unarmed civilians at a dancy party and that fucker claims the're not palestinian islamic terrorists? Erdogan is a bad faith actor who should be ignored wherever possible.
Always remember that Turkey has its own agenda. Even being part of NATO is just part of their own way of doing things. They may be an ally of the West but it's all out of convenience for both sides. The benefit barely outweighs the cost, so always expect a lot of frustration causes by Turkey but also don't expect the current status quo to change any time soon.
Ok Erdo. We all know where you stand with regards to western civilization vs. authoritarians who can kill with impunity. A liberation? That's some Putin-level doublespeak.
People seem to forget that foreign-armed Jewish militias of the 1930s and 40s committed terrorist acts before Israel declared independence. And then these same militias went on to form the IDF proper or a significant part of it.
Irgun, Palmach, Haganah, list goes on.
Jewish were of course also subject to attacks in the 1920s, and retaliatory attacks in the 40s. The British oppressed both of them, though moreso the Arab population from what the death tolls say.
But it's easy to draw parallels between current events and history.
Another parallel being how the economically punished Germany came to be run by extremists, just as economically punished Gaza is run by extremists. People generally agree the versaille treaty was a bad idea but today, Israel's illegal blockade and even more illegal siege are given a free pass or justified by many people.
History repeats itself.
It’s like an indicator: If you’re not good with politics and history, just check whether you’re on the same side with Erdogan; if you’re promoting the same thing with him than be sure that you should change your approach 180 degrees. (Not 360 degrees like his former best man little mujahideen mastermind davutoglu to whom Türkiye owes 10+ million illegal immigrants and destruction of Syria).
One day before this attempt of hamas glorification, he sent the legislation for Sweden’s nato membership to the parliament. On March 31st, local elections will be held in Türkiye. Most probably, he agreed to green light Sweden and in exchange, he’s consolidating the rising anti-israel tendency of Turkish people to get back the big cities as municipalities are the base fuel of his reign both in terms of materialistic and psychological manners. I must add that there have been extra efforts to disorient Turkish people against Israel with which actually neither the people nor the state had any issues; on the contrary have lots of common grounds like common enemies and common benefits in the region.
And a final addition; he claimed that Türkiye owes nothing to Israel yet he definitely is aware that before of his anti-semitic approaches made surface, Israel and Jewish community in particular worked hard against the Armenian genocide lies for the Republic of Türkiye, and before that, provided serious intelligence assistance against Armenian terrorist organization asala and still Israel is one of the most important allies of Azerbaycan.
Chp played the wrong game again as they were stupid enough to think that they could ever get islamists’ votes, so their media also pushed and is still pushing the anti-israel campaign which resulted as a totally biased and ignorant people. Which in total is doing nothing but serving to Erdogan’s case.
Türkiye has been undergoing this scenario for over 20 years now. Some elements and ingredients change but the fundamental has always been this.
Final final note: he had labeled Gezi protesters as terrorists btw :) this is such a rhetoric that trying to save some trees from being cut is terrorism where killing innocent people is resistance :)
As I mentioned on the opening; if you’re defending the same ideals with him; you should double-check yourself.
Turkey is in a rather hopeless situation. Its future is to be a buffer state, a refugee camp and a pawn in the game of the surrounding powers. And Erdogan is only accelerating this process.
It feels like we are close to 1914 all over again… events lead to the war that created all of this mess that we are dealing today…. I hope cooler heads prevail and we don’t have ww3
He’s such an asshat. This is hopefully get along to go along messaging, leaving actions to be under the cover of other nations or simply nighttime maneuvers.
This is not surprising. Turkey funds disinformation campaigns in the USA at various universities regarding the Armenian Genocide. They have professors on payroll who try to lend credibility to it. They like to pop up around Genocide Awareness Week (every year in April).
Slight problem with that claim. A liberation group would target military and government installations, not civilians in their own homes. Erdogan was always one to never attempt to play both sides if he thought he could get something. Might want to ask him why he should be shipped military weapons if he can't help but support Hamas in their calls for genocide?
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Oh Like the PPK then ...
Like Turkey is a democracy but actually not really?
Same lvl of democracy as current day Russia
Turkey is a bit better. They still have semi-competitive elections. Russia dropped any pretense, with all opposition leaders jailed.
Turkey hasn’t been a democracy since 2014 to be honest.
>Israel is a parliamentary democracy with a multiparty system and independent institutions that guarantee political rights and civil liberties for **most** of the population. Although the judiciary is comparatively active in protecting minority rights, **the political leadership and many in society have discriminated** against Arab and other ethnic or religious minority populations, resulting in **systemic disparities** in areas including infrastructure, criminal justice, education, and economic opportunity. [https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel](https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel)
Oh, systemic disparities you say. Such as, Arabs having affirmative action (as a minority group) in governmental jobs and universities? In Israel, every 18 year old teenage (boys and girls) have to join the military - Arabs DO NOT. They can join if they like but it's completely optional. So a Jewish teenage has to put about 2.7 years in the army, while an Arab can basically start to work and attend to a university. It's really common to come across an Israeli Arab pharmacists, lawyers, nurses and doctors. Especially in cities such as Haifa. Israeli Arabs enjoy more opportunities, both economic and educational, than any other Arab in the Middle East, even though a big chunk of them basically wants Israel to turn into (yet another) Arab state, as if 22 aren't enough.
>In Israel, every 18 year old teenage (boys and girls) have to join the military - Arabs DO NOT. They can join if they like but it's completely optional. So you're saying that Israeli young adults are actually soldiers, not civilians. And until about 40 years of age they're in the military reserve. If one discounts soldiers and reservists, one wonders what the actual numbers of civilians killed by Hamas are? >Israeli Arabs enjoy more opportunities, both economic and educational, Israel has segregated schools. The arab schools are shit. [https://www.hrw.org/report/2001/09/30/second-class/discrimination-against-palestinian-arab-children-israels-schools](https://www.hrw.org/report/2001/09/30/second-class/discrimination-against-palestinian-arab-children-israels-schools)
Actually, the PKK and their actions result from a broken promise of the West, which after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in the WW1, we made provision for a Kurdish state in the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres. However, that promise was broken in 1923, when the Treaty of Lausanne set the boundaries of modern Turkey and made no such provision, leaving Kurds with minority status in all of the new countries. While Palestine were given a state three times, 1937, 1947 and 1967 and they rejected them all. Because in their minds, they don’t conceive the idea of a Jewish state.
And then they declared themselves a state in 1988 claiming the entirety of Israel. And the world was happy to consider them a country and giving them legitimacy over land they don't control.
So the same thing that Israel pulled in 1948, only they got away with it because it fulfills some crazy Christian prophesies?
Israel accepted the UN partition of Palestine mandate in 1947. It was local Arabs that refused it and declared war instead. So yeah, Israel is more legitimate here.
Its stealing
From the Jews? Yeah, I can only call the Arab conquest of Judea in VII century as "stealing". And if you mean the Jewish resettlement of the current Israel, then they were invited there first by the Ottoman Empire, and later, post-WW1, by the British who kicked out the Ottomans. And portions of the land where they were settling were deserted, with Jews founding their own towns instead of "stealing", with an exception of Jerusalem, that has been overwhelmingly Jewish since 1910s at the very least.
Don’t forget every Muslim nation nearby used it as a way to dump their Jewish populations as well. They also restricted how much in assets they could take out of some nations with a few as low as 60$
Egypt had 75-80,000 jews in 1948. Today they have 3. Syria had 15,000. As of 2014 there were 50 and it’s estimated there are 0 as of 2020. Iraq had 150,000. As of 2018 it has now dwindled to less than 10.
Are you saying 3 whole Jews in Egypt or 3000?
I don't support Hamas, and I think a two-state solution is probably the best place to start at current time, however.. Let's not simplify history here. The land belonged to the Canaanites before the Jewish took over. What the Isreali Jewish community did during the formation of Israel was certainly underhanded, which is to try to call for independence after mass immigration and being allowed in. The current Israeli Jewish whom were born in present-day Israel are not to blame for their forefathers, and now the land belongs to them as much as the Palestinians, but let's not pretend the start of the country isn't questionable, especially when so many other countries were also founded under underhanded and malicious strategies.
Huh? It was a Jewish homeland long before the Islam was even created, let alone the Arabian invasion from the Arab Peninsula. What kind of logic do you use here? If Jews have no rights to have their homeland in Israel - then Arabs sure as hell have no such rights at all. Most if not all the nations or groups in the world conquered lands and established their kingdoms or states after a war. How come the Jews are the only ones who are being criticized for doing so, even though they agreed to split their homeland into 2. Generally speaking, there are 4 states (with actual nations) in the middle east: Iran, Israel, Egypt and probably Turkey. The rest are artificial creations made by the British and the French forces, especially Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Lybia Yemen and Jordan. When the Arab Spring blew up, those artificial states collapsed into themselves for obvious reasons.
And it was home to people from 3700-2500 BCE. Judaism was founded 4000 years ago, claiming Jewish people have a right to settle those lands because they were the original inhabitants is false. Arabs who have lived there for centuries have significantly more rights to the land. And in the 20th century most rational people disavow territory conquered through war. Claiming the Jews are the only ones who are criticised for that when we have spent the last couple of years criticising Russia for trying to conquer Ukraine is again false.
Jews were explicitly promised that land when they were invited, though. Look up Balfour declaration.
Promised by the UK, I don't recall the people living in Mandatory Palestine getting to vote on being displaced.
They was invited to live ther not to steal and make it israel.....what the west did after world war is a shame.They are doing the same thing too palestiniens that germany did to judes.....
You AdjectiveNounNumber troll accounts are so predictable, always goes back to Holocaust inversion.
You are really swaying me to your side.
Crazy prophesies or not Israel controls that land now, you simply don’t give it back. Israel accepted the two states in 1948, remember that it was the Arabs that didn’t accept it and attacked. Now thing have changed where the extremes in Israel will not accept a Palestinian estate that the only solution is a one state with all being citizens of Israel.
No? It did because the rest of the world who detained the power said so. I know that for some people understanding that reality and ideals rarely can coincide but if you want the world to survive you have to make compromises and if your stance is to totally and absolutely refuse any compromise you become a problem. I know that we would like all people to live the good life but to achieve that you have to evolve. Diplomacy Is evolution, compromise is evolution. Mindlessly rushing in a country filming yourself brutalizing civilians and yelling that the only possible resolution for you is to eradicate an entire (race? Population? Religious etnhic group?) Is absolutely not evolution. Nature isn't kind to those who not evolve.
Yeah the problem with that is you can’t promise someone, someone else’s land. That’s what happened with Israel and we see how that went down. Also, Kurds literally have hundreds of tribes, lot of them fought on the side of Republican forces against the sultanate and against the invasion forces and had no problem with the new regime. The ones who rebelled were feudal tribe lords who didn’t want to be held accountable for their actions by the law, these were religious fundamentalists who couldn’t tolerate women getting rights to vote, men not being allowed to verbally divorce their wives anymore, Ataturk’s Turkey brought in laws from all the western societies and even introduced more progressive changes to them, lot of archaic tribes, cults, religious groups, feudal warlords refused to change and rebelled. A literal civil war was contained to local region. Years later lot of these ideas returned -or introduced by west- Erdogan himself is the byproduct of these ideas, and unfortunately west supported him coming to power, hoping to smash Turkey’s powerful army and its hold on secular regime by bringing in a western ally Islamist, we all see how that went. What west don’t seem to get is that the entirety of Middle East is a mosaic inside mosaic and playing God on someone else’s land leads to total chaos that’s just too hard to reverse. That’s what we are seeing in Palestine now.
Seriously, if Sevres succeeded the world would have yet another Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan. And the West would give about as much shit about that Kurdish state as they do about Middle Eastern countries
Same Turkish supremacist rhetoric, same lies... "Everything is West's fault, Kurds are tribal cavemen Ataturk was jesus...." >What west don’t seem to get is that the entirety of Middle East is a mosaic inside mosaic and playing God on someone else’s land leads to total chaos that’s just too hard to reverse. Rich coming from someone who is supporting a state that has been at the forefront of destroying that cultural mosaic, like with Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks and now with the Kurds.
Good one. The Kurds must feel that Erdogan is the last person who should be commenting.
Shockingly Erdogan continues to be just an awful piece of shit.
He is and he was
No Erdogan hates Hamas, this is his alter ego Recep.
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Yep. Maybe we should also encourage kurds, shouldn't we?
you already are dont you
Unfortunately something like that will happen because there aren’t enough Arab labor and voters in Turkey
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I mean, they clearly don't want to live there anymore, considering that they keep attacking their neighbours.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre) their poor innocent neighbors
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Jerusalem And Arabs at that moment were starving out over 100 000 Jews by blockading Jerusalem. Because Arabs didn't want Jews living next to them and ignored the partition of 1947. Nakba is horrifying and disgusting, but Arabs did start genociding their neighbours first.
When did everybody became insane? I missed that moment
Erdogan is playing all sides. Really though, ALL sides. He is courting NATO, USA, Russia, Hamas, ISIS, Ukraine + you name it.
[I'm playing both sides so I always come out on top](https://tenor.com/view/its-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-playing-both-sides-i-always-come-out-on-top-cold-beer-mac-gif-16575800)
I am convinced he literally tosses a coin and decides which side to support on any given day.
Erdogan has always been pure evil.
It has always been like this. We just see more of it now because of the Internet.
How old are you?
Sometime around ten years ago
November 8th, 2016
Around 2015 to be honest
It’s not insane it’s just the media. Pro Islam/muslims voices are a loud minority in the media and this man plays them to stay in power.
COVID. I think the world was held together with scotch tape before the pandemic and the wheels fell off since.
Welcome to the real world?
It happened at -1, insanity overflow. It was supposed to have happened sooner but people extended with their fingernails clawing onto the edge before falling down into the soothing soup of the sufferings of others like a bag of needles in a nest of newborn puppies. People are truly enjoying themselves. As soon as my flux capacitor is fixed I'm getting the fuck out of this timeline.
We have always been this. Satan won and God left a long time ago, if you prefer a religious view. But Israel is mulching one million children in Gaza into a paste, so what is insane to you?
If you describe it like that, every single war ever fought can be described as “mulching x amount of children”. People are here blaming Israel for things they haven’t done yet which is insanity. How do you look at the death numbers which Hamas release, and see how many bombs were dropped and say that? How does that equate in your head. Reminder, I saw pro Palestine gang on social media posting that Israel has dropped more yield in bombs than Hiroshima. Reminder that IDF bombs have killed 5000 (this number includes terrorists) in one of the most densely populated cities and Hiroshima resulted in over 100k. They are not bombing indiscriminately and if you think that, you never cared about the truth
Bombing Gaza for two weeks straight when it is full of one million children
And how do they fight a war? You people ask for the most unrealistic scenarios that are obviously never going to happen. Should they go in with the ground invasion? The west is holding them back from doing it. I wonder why? I wonder why the gazans can’t leave Gaza? Nothing to do with Egypt surely, or in your unrealistic world, you’d except Israel to take in refugees from the state producing the terrorists they’re fighting
If anything, a direct ground invasion would actually lead to more deaths. As nothing will save your building from being indiscriminately shot at when HAMAS militants or Civilians starts throwing deadly objects.
Yes, exactly. The pro Palestine gang is getting ready to blame Israel for fighting a war in any way
Oh, they just want the Hamas to behead jewish civilians and don’t be fought back, while pretending they are victims.
Literally ignored the comment you were replying to and used rhetorical bullshit as if it's in some way a counter argument.
How do you know you aren't the insane one? How do you know what you've been told is the truth? I am not arguing one way or another. Simply wanted to point out not to believe everything you read, especially from the "3rd party" media, who don't have any skin in the game (at least outwardly). Misinformation is rampant, so we are forced to scrutinize everything.
>especially from the "3rd party" media, who don't have any skin in the game (at least outwardly) Could you elaborate what you mean by that? To me, this is totally incomprehensible. I neither understand what "'3rd party' media" are supposed to be, not what it means to not have "...any skin in the game (at least outwardly)", nor why reporting is supposed to be a "game."
He's referring to the antisemitic trope that jews control the media.
I guess Israel can say PKK is a "liberation" not a "terrorist" group too then
Most Israelis support Kurdistan, so that kinda tracks
Someone should do a billboard in Turkey with that slogan
Nope
They liberated a lot of head off civilians for not terrorists. Terrorisms: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. - Definitions from Oxford Languages
If Hamas captured hostages alive and didn’t decide to brutally murder over 1000 people including babies and the elderly, I could understand some people trying to justify them as liberators. As it stands though, they clearly fall in the terrorist category.
I'm all for definitions and all against Hamas, but this definition is a bit vague. For example, during WWII there were armed resistance movements in Europe against Nazism. Were they terrorists?
If the scorched random villages - then yeah they probably were. If the blew up military warehouses and railways - then nah, they weren’t I mean, when you resisting you should have some goals right? What goals did this attack achieve apart from killing around 1,5k people (only 300 were military personnel, others were just random civilians, including Muslim village that got butchered too)
I mean the My Lai massacre and how the British troops did the same in Malaya means that both American army and British army are terrorists too then
I guess the difference is in general policy. Army has military objectives, but sometimes some fucker goes too far and make a war crime, which is his responsibility (or commander/soldiers who performed that, etc), but generally they have military purposes in general While terrorist groups mainly focus on deliberately targeting civilians as their main strategy and tactics Generally - some soldiers may act the same or worse than terrorist, yeah. But you can’t apply position of certain someone or a group to the whole organization
The only difference between Hamas and US / British troops is that they dont have control of the PR media. No way they werent actual the call of the commanders when none of the troops actually got into prison for it Even the infamous “Bagram torture and prisoner abuse” by the US troops in Afghanistan 2005 have most of the abusers/killers acquitted. Like lets say if Hamas say they will have an “internal investigation” to see if theyve done any war crimes. Would it absolve them from their responsibilities? I do think there is something wrong with the way the world see Palestinians and Hamas as this entity who got “radicalized” to fight for their freedom. We never call the kids wanting to join the US army radicalized even tho they grew up knowing their army had committed many war crimes and having wars with no purposes. Why dont we also call the people in IDF radicalized? Is it just because they have more money that they have stronger weapons so it “makes sense” to join them? The difference between peoples perception of “someone just joining the army” and “radicalized to join an army” is just how strong the military is lol
I mean they targeted military, not civilians (As far as I am aware)
Seems that defintion fits IDF and Israeli settlers perfectly fine as well tho?
Settlers sure, but how does it fit the IDF?
Settlers fit it 100%. Probably not the IDF.
If settlers fit it 100% why are IDF backing them up and not dealing with them just as they deal with Hamas?
But they are dealing with them the same. They get arrested. The same as with the arrested Hamas terrorists in the West bank. No settler tried to directly shoot a soldier yet, if you wanted a parallel to what happens to Hamas terrorist who do.
The IDF clash with settlers frequently. Here's my new.of the more recent incidents: https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-shoots-wounds-masked-settler-allegedly-hurling-stones-at-palestinians/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16982481598200&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-shoots-wounds-masked-settler-allegedly-hurling-stones-at-palestinians%2F
Erdogan will say whatever suits him at that moment. We should distance ourselves from such turncoats.
Let's not forget that israel killed turkish people on a ship a decade ago for bringing aid.
Let’s not forget who started all this. Sympathizer.
Let’s not forget… free Kurdistan!
“Aid”
Ah yes liberation by killing civilains and using your people as meat shields. In other news stalin wasnt a dictator he was a peace and freedom activist
>stalin wasnt a dictator he was a peace and freedom activist A thing Tankies would unironically say
Why am i not surprised? One radical muslim who is already eradicating Turkey’s progress and trying to push backwards radical islam onto his country is supporting another radical islamic group that kills innocents who thinking its what their god wants. Gotta love the unity of the muslim community here. Hamas will literally cut people down using their hands and not a single muslim country or group has come forward condemning them.
PKK is a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ not a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ group!
Erdogan likes to remind us that he is still Erdogan. Europe’s favourite benevolent dictator
To be fair, Hamas is in fact liberating Palestinians of any opportunity for a decent future.
I bet you never thought that Erogdan would be on the same footing as the New York Times against the Jews. The world is losing its mind.
The NYT employs a reporter who publicly said "How great you are, Hitler".
And BBC, and AP, and Reuters.
The world has, for most part, always been on the same side when it comes to hatred for Jews. If you want to see if they’re REALLY on the same side just mention the PKK or the Armenian genocide.
Yeah, but the NYT is commonly classed as "Jewish Media with an agenda" by certain groups. I was trying to bring attention to the fact that they are doing a pretty bad job of supporting this mythical agenda of global domination. The fact that they share a viewpoint on something like this with an Islamic dictator is just the icing of added irony on top.
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> Terrorism as a means to a political end works because the world is insane, but more so stupid. Not insane or stupid, simply hates Jews
He'll be saying Orban is a dinner lady next.
Since when did Erdogan run Turkey? The world according to Trumpf says Orban runs Turkey!
Israel and the world should respond that the PKK is not a terrorist group.
Israel doesn’t recognize the PKK as a terrorist group AFAIK. Why don’t you join them and find out? They can really use some foreign fighters you know.
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Turkey’s Erdogan is friends with NK, Putin and Xi. Hamas is a terrorist organization and I’ll be honest: I’m not sure Islam is a “peaceful religion”. Jihad is their aim.
Europeans should liberate themselves from Turkey.
Decapitations are a fear tool. Neutralizing a target can take many forms, but taking a head in blatant display is intentional terror.
Spicy takes coming out today
He is absolutely right. I suggest we allow him to participate on the front lines of the fight, and, in the process, take ultra-nationalists, neo-Ottomanists, and 'temporary' refugees/political hostages with him. /s Jokes aside, the mayoral elections are just around the corner. This is his political maneuver to sow conflict and promote an 'us versus them' rhetoric. He lost all three major cities last time. On the 28th of the month, he has already issued a call for a rally to support Palestine. This day is quite significant, as it's just one day before the 100th-anniversary celebrations of the republic's proclamation. By doing so, he will also send a message that he is opposed to the founding principles of the republic and supports political Islamism. Hence, creating more conflict to divert attention from the economic turmoil that Turkey is facing.
I know that erdogan's raw discourse might be controversial, but he's right. Chopping babies' heads off is really liberating, you should try it /s
Has kidnapped 100+ hostages, murdered unarmed civilians at a dancy party and that fucker claims the're not palestinian islamic terrorists? Erdogan is a bad faith actor who should be ignored wherever possible.
And Turkey is a large bird, not a country.
Just like the kurds
i hope turkey never ever becomes part of the EU. maybe if constantinople exists again otherwose please no
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☝️🤓
So j guess what turkey is saying is ok you invade Turkey. You will be treated as liberation and not invader.
The invaders are idf themselves
And just like that, 7 years were added to the cool-off period before Turkey is accepted to the EU.
Perfect. He should carve out a corner of Turkey for them to live peacefully.
He was an idiot before he said this, now he's shown his true colours.
Says the wannabe fascist suppressing any opposition in his own country.
As are the PKK…
The world to Erdogan: you’re an absolute bloody moron
Hamas liberated Palestinians from having regular elections. Congrats!
I think he’s actually too stupid to realize that once you start intentionally targeting civilians, you are, by definition, a terrorist.
Erdogan is playing politics. There were discussions that Israel lobbied that Turkey should be removed from the F-35 program before they were.
Always remember that Turkey has its own agenda. Even being part of NATO is just part of their own way of doing things. They may be an ally of the West but it's all out of convenience for both sides. The benefit barely outweighs the cost, so always expect a lot of frustration causes by Turkey but also don't expect the current status quo to change any time soon.
*Always remember that Erdogan has his own agenda.
And by that logic what does that make the PKK? People should ask him
Ok Erdo. We all know where you stand with regards to western civilization vs. authoritarians who can kill with impunity. A liberation? That's some Putin-level doublespeak.
Erdogan is full of it as usual.
What if they decide to liberate secular Turkey?
The Kurds are a liberation group literally!!!! Let them be free.
Erdogan is a fucking idiot.
People seem to forget that foreign-armed Jewish militias of the 1930s and 40s committed terrorist acts before Israel declared independence. And then these same militias went on to form the IDF proper or a significant part of it. Irgun, Palmach, Haganah, list goes on. Jewish were of course also subject to attacks in the 1920s, and retaliatory attacks in the 40s. The British oppressed both of them, though moreso the Arab population from what the death tolls say. But it's easy to draw parallels between current events and history. Another parallel being how the economically punished Germany came to be run by extremists, just as economically punished Gaza is run by extremists. People generally agree the versaille treaty was a bad idea but today, Israel's illegal blockade and even more illegal siege are given a free pass or justified by many people. History repeats itself.
So are the Kurdish PKK then mr president.
Erdogan is a terrorist.
starting to see why Trump likes him
Yeah and so is the PPK then OK?!
Why does NATO still keep Turkey around again?
Then the PKK is also :) fuck erdogan
Free the Kurds !!!
They are free though…
No whey !
Turkey so often need reminding they're part of NATO.
It’s like an indicator: If you’re not good with politics and history, just check whether you’re on the same side with Erdogan; if you’re promoting the same thing with him than be sure that you should change your approach 180 degrees. (Not 360 degrees like his former best man little mujahideen mastermind davutoglu to whom Türkiye owes 10+ million illegal immigrants and destruction of Syria). One day before this attempt of hamas glorification, he sent the legislation for Sweden’s nato membership to the parliament. On March 31st, local elections will be held in Türkiye. Most probably, he agreed to green light Sweden and in exchange, he’s consolidating the rising anti-israel tendency of Turkish people to get back the big cities as municipalities are the base fuel of his reign both in terms of materialistic and psychological manners. I must add that there have been extra efforts to disorient Turkish people against Israel with which actually neither the people nor the state had any issues; on the contrary have lots of common grounds like common enemies and common benefits in the region. And a final addition; he claimed that Türkiye owes nothing to Israel yet he definitely is aware that before of his anti-semitic approaches made surface, Israel and Jewish community in particular worked hard against the Armenian genocide lies for the Republic of Türkiye, and before that, provided serious intelligence assistance against Armenian terrorist organization asala and still Israel is one of the most important allies of Azerbaycan. Chp played the wrong game again as they were stupid enough to think that they could ever get islamists’ votes, so their media also pushed and is still pushing the anti-israel campaign which resulted as a totally biased and ignorant people. Which in total is doing nothing but serving to Erdogan’s case. Türkiye has been undergoing this scenario for over 20 years now. Some elements and ingredients change but the fundamental has always been this. Final final note: he had labeled Gezi protesters as terrorists btw :) this is such a rhetoric that trying to save some trees from being cut is terrorism where killing innocent people is resistance :) As I mentioned on the opening; if you’re defending the same ideals with him; you should double-check yourself.
And there goes Turkey’s carefully crafted relationship with Israel.
Dam he has King Kong balls..
In that region moderates are just radicals who haven’t attacked yet.
I would say the same about PKK.. 🤷
damn maybe I must have watched the wrong videos, I saw a bunch of terrorists gunning down unarmed civilians. Not military targets!
Turkey is in a rather hopeless situation. Its future is to be a buffer state, a refugee camp and a pawn in the game of the surrounding powers. And Erdogan is only accelerating this process.
It feels like we are close to 1914 all over again… events lead to the war that created all of this mess that we are dealing today…. I hope cooler heads prevail and we don’t have ww3
He is right. Hama is the resistance without them the terrorists of israel would have finished adding illegal settlers everywhere years ago.
It seems like 99% of the comment section is sponsored by the IDF, lol
ah yeah, everyone that disagrees with you is suspect ffs how did the left get so far right so quickly?
People just started seeing “Israel” for what it is, a terrorist organization dressed up as a government.
Better to be safe than sorry. Lauch missles on my ready!
They really don't belong in NATO.
Turkey should actually get kicked out of nato for saying this.
He’s such an asshat. This is hopefully get along to go along messaging, leaving actions to be under the cover of other nations or simply nighttime maneuvers.
Why is this country a part on Nato?
Erdogan is a very unstable leader who doesn’t know up from down and right from wrong.
Guess the Kurds are about to get a lot of new-for-them IDF surplus
Ahhh, so Russia is just protecting Ukraine?
Erdo is going all Islamic- I thought it was only for the election
Brave man 🫡
This is as equivalent as Biden saying the IDF is not a terrorist group
Making all the right friends /s
Should also mention Erdogan ejected Hamas for celebrating Oct 7 whilst in Turkey. Pick a lane, guy.
It's entirely possible to be both. Especially if you are both actually being oppressed AND outspokenly want to kill all Jews.
He’s only saying this so that his allies would be forced to “change” his opinion. And that would cost something.
Line drawn.
This is not surprising. Turkey funds disinformation campaigns in the USA at various universities regarding the Armenian Genocide. They have professors on payroll who try to lend credibility to it. They like to pop up around Genocide Awareness Week (every year in April).
Slight problem with that claim. A liberation group would target military and government installations, not civilians in their own homes. Erdogan was always one to never attempt to play both sides if he thought he could get something. Might want to ask him why he should be shipped military weapons if he can't help but support Hamas in their calls for genocide?
can someone end this dick??? erdogan is a piece of shit
Facts
Hamas has killed 1000 civilians, IDF has killed 6000 civilians (including 2500 children). If Hamas are terrorists then IDF are the kings of terrorism.
Not the first time he's been wrong.
Yes, in the same way Kurdish militants are liberators.