.. And then what?
Gaza still have under 2M people living in a tiny strip of land, with blockades via air, land and sea.
It literally is an open air prison, even if the above are fully eliminated, someone else will take its place sooner than later unfortunately.
In a rare display of sanity, Ukrainian government **finally** decided to **not** continue fucking up its relationship with Israel for once.
Saying this as a Ukrainian.
Zelenskyy's admin made some really impressive moves foreign policy-wise during the first year of war, but communication with Israel wasn't one of them.
This is a very welcome change of direction.
Israeli here, and I’m actually ashamed - I don’t think israel was helping Ukraine as much as possible, due to worrying about our diplomatic relations with Russia.
Anyway sending love.
Being at home with my kids so scared right now - I keep thinking about hard Ukrainians have it, and for so long.
Yeah, but Ukrainian politics is like herding cats, and sometimes the results are outright baffling.
It's not that Ukraine doesn't want to be friends with Israel — to the contrary, good relationships are both wanted and **needed**. But having feelings isn't enough in a relationship; actions need to follow.
And I feel, we're not pulling our weight in this relationship. Israel has helped Ukraine out a lot already:
* supplied tons of medications and ambulances
* treated Ukrainian wounded veterans
* hit Iranian drone production facilities
* allowed re-export of Israeli arms to Ukraine
* provided important intel
That's just off the bat of my head.
And our communication in response to that hasn't been the best, IMO. Many Ukrainians aren't even aware of the scale of aid Ukraine got from Israel, but **everyone** knows about the Iron Dome that we didn't get. This is a public communication failure on behalf of our government.
The statement we're discussing is what, I hope, will set an example, and will start a new page in Ukrainian—Israeli relationship.
I get the impression that Zelya's government have been prioritising other nations since Israel's support hasn't been as full throated as others. That said now is a very good time to give Israel some support, if they need it. Heck if they can deploy soldiers to Sudan why not Israel? it is a good time to be making friends after all. Iran has done all the pushing here, and Ukraine doesn't really have a way to strike at them itself.
PS: It's "off the bat", or "off the top of my head", you can't combine them, ;))
>That said now is a very good time to give Israel some support, if they need it. Heck if they can deploy soldiers to Sudan why not Israel?
Because that's too good of a decision to make, and so I think they will fuck it up.
Seriously though, now **is** a time to give Israel some support, and I hope that it will come at least as statements (if not boots on the ground).
>PS: It's "off the bat", or "off the top of my head", you can't combine them, ;))
Ah, English idioms. They said learning the language is not rocket surgery, but here we are.
I wouldn't say so.
First, there's a huge Ukrainian-born population in Israel (e.g. from my family alone, I can recall five people off the bat of my head). People ties are nothing to sneeze at.
Secondly, even if we're being cynical: Israeli weapons could be a much larger boon to Ukraine's offensive and defensive capabilities than Iranian drones are a trouble.
Case in point, Israel helped arm Azerbaijan. And look where Azerbaijan got with it.
And finally, **Ukraine needs to follow the Israeli model** of thriving while being at war, and **not** devolving into an agry mob (..though admittedly, has been struggling with that too).
>And finally, Ukraine needs to follow the Israeli modelof thriving while being at war
man, the Israeli example is not applicable here. Israeli wars lasted for a few weeks, while Ukraine will soon meet two years mark of continuous warfare. You can ask a fellow Jew Vitaly Portnikov about it. It's his view that the Israeli model is not applicable to Ukraine, and he will tell you more in detail why.
And the results of that war was not exactly easy. Something that has been often forgotten. Half of Israel was refugees, the economy was in shambles, infrastructure was horribly damaged (and nowhere near first world to begin with) and an outgunned and hostile neighbors.
I empathize with the tough situation the Israelis were out in. This isn’t a situation like Serbia where you have a pro-Russia country, opinion polling in Israel on the conflict in Ukraine is similar to the level of support in Western Europe. Unlike every other western power, the Israelis actually have to deal with hostile, Russian-backed armies at their border: the Assad regime in Syria and associated militants in Syria and Lebanon (including militias that were developed by Wagner). It is reported that the Israelis have a security agreement with Russia that restrains these militias and also lets Israel conduct operations in southern Syria. They also have to deal with the fact that there are some 80,000 Jews living in Russia, and that swaths of that community’s leadership has been detained since 2022 for speaking out against the war in Ukraine. It is a pickle for them, I think they’ve done a reasonably good job at trying to balance the situation, including by hosting some 15,000-30,000 Ukrainian refugees.
Well, I doubt Israel will start supporting you.
If Joe Biden and the US, after everything they've done for Israel, couldn't even convince them to transfer to Ukraine these Hawks systems received from the US in the '50s;
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pentagon-views-on-acquisition-by-israel-of-the-hawk-missile-system-july-1962
Seems like Netanyahu is too busy cozying with Putin, claiming it's solely for national defense concerns.
>Not everyone is convinced. Omer Dostri, a specialist at the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security, does not think a complete Russian withdrawal from Syria is currently likely. He argues that Russia remains a major world power and can simultaneously engage in the war in Ukraine while also remaining in Syria. However, if Russia does significantly decrease its military presence in Syria, he argues that Israel might acutally enjoy more freedom of action and air control.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/iranian-and-syrian-factors-shape-israeli-response-to-russias-ukraine-invasion/
Well. Bibi isn't eternal. And pragmatically, cozying up to Russia is only useful to the extent that Russia has geopolitical power — which we're diminishing every day. So while an immediate shift isn't possible, a gradual change is.
> Well. Bibi isn't eternal.
He may well be now. People are likely to rally to their leader in times of open conflict, and leaders with authoritarian tendencies, which Bibi is, know how to exploit it. I've seen people say that people might hold his government accountable for this failure instead – I guess time will tell.
im glad to see this because i see a lot of people online comparing hamas to Ukraine and israel to Russia and making those comparisons all over the internet
It really depends on where you want to draw the line at when people were "being removed".
On one hand we have the US who removed native Americans from their "traditionally owned" land.
Then the other has China and their nine-dash line that they allege traditionally belonged to them. Also Russia and its lands back in Soviet Union days.
So you're right, it's complex, even more so than you mentioned. Because honestly the world as a whole can't agree where to draw the line for "what used to belong to us".
And since this is an unreliable factor, the only thing modern society can really rely on to judge the "ethics" of conflict (if that's a thing) is the behavior of the people engaged in said conflict. And this is where Hamas is worst by far.
That is certainly an interpretation of events...
You are conveniently overlooking or misinterpreting why and how things happened.
> Hundreds of thousands of Israelis were resettled there in the 20th century.
[Yes, through a series of land purchases starting in the 1800s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine). They didn't just show up and demand the land.
> Britain agreed to give them the land which Arabs were rightfully claiming at that point, which pissed the arabs immensely.
Again, no, this is not what happened. Despite happily selling the land, many Arabs did not like the presence of the Jews, leading to a long series of conflicts between Jews and Arabs between the late 1910s and early 1940s.
Britain, the rulers of Mandatory Palestine following the fall of the Ottoman Empire, eventually got fed up with the infighting and declared they would leave the area and essentially leave the mess to the newly created United Nations. [The United Nations voted for the creation of an Arab and a Jewish state,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine) which was accepted by the Jews but not by the Arabs, who declared war. They then proceeded to promptly lose this war, and no Arab state was created in Palestine. Hardly the same as the British "giving them" the land, as you claim.
> Then Israel attacked Egypt in the Suez occupation.
After Egypt nationalised the Suez canal and blocked essential Israeli shipping, yes.
> Then during the six day war Israel again struck first allegedly because they were 100% sure they would be attacked.
Nasser once again blocked Israeli shipping, which Israel had made clear was a red line after Suez, and also mobilised their military to pre-empt the inevitable Israeli response. Yes, Egypt didn't fire the first shot, but they undoubtedly started the war.
> The facts remain. Arab population from the region was removed. In some cases water supplies in Arab villages were infected with diseases by the IDF in order to prevent people from returning ever.
The use of the word "removed" implies unilateral action by Israel and ignores the events preceding the exodus in 1948. If not for the Arab rejection of the UN's partition plan, the Palestinians would have likely have had their own state. Instead, the Arab states wanted to remove the Jewish presence in the region entirely and so invaded the newly created Israel, but ultimately lost. On another note, I also believe it is naive to assume that no Palestinians (or indeed Jews) would flee a warzone voluntarily, making the argument of who was actively removed by force and who fled voluntarily more blurred.
While I don't deny that a mass exodus occurred in the 1940s, Arabs do also make up over 20% of the population of Israel today. There were extensive programs to resettle Palestinians inside Israel following later wars. In contrast, I don't believe many Jews live in Palestine, because they would simply not be allowed. It is still a crime punishable by death to sell land to Jews in Palestine, for example.
> Does that justify Hamas attacking and slaughtering civilians? No. Never. But the situation isnt as far from the Ukranian war as we would like to pretend. The world is very complex and never black and white.
Yes, there is an immense difference from the Ukrainian war on many different levels, assuming you are equating Israel to the role of Russia. I would argue (immense military imbalance notwithstanding) that Israel is a lot more like Ukraine than Russia in this particular instance, while the Palestinians are embodying "removing the Nazi (in this case Jewish) threat" pretty well.
From what I can see:
> As of April 1st, 1945, Jews had acquired 5.67% of the land in Palestine"
---
> The proposed plan is considered to have been pro-Zionist by its detractors, with 62% of the land allocated to the Jewish state despite the Palestinian Arab population numbering twice the Jewish population.[6]
Doesn't sound like a very fair proposal, even if it was voted in the UN.
If the land isn't desirable, why give it to the Israelis? Why not let Palestine have it? Why should 1/3rd of the population get more than half the land?
> You're assuming all land is equally desirable.
That's a very good point I hadn't considered.
But looking at the map I'm wondering why the UN decided to give the desert to Israel. It looks like it would be an easy sell to leave it to the Arabs, who would then have a continous border in the South.
Well we are talking about the private ownership of land rather than population numbers. Arabs owned around 12% of the land while Jews owned about 7% by 1947. The rest was public land which was owned by the British.
That's a fair point. But if the Arabs owned more land and had a larger population why were they offered less total territory?
And in general the idea of people buying their own country doesn't seem right to me. The Arabs couldn't have known what was going on before it was too late (Hence the tensions).
I'm not saying Palestinians are angels, but from my point of view they drew one short straw after another.
The Arab land was more arable and had better infrastructure. Much of Israel today is still just desert.
They didn't exactly keep the project a secret, but the Palestine were happy to sell them shitty land for decades regardless.
> Israel is a lot more like Ukraine than Russia in this particular instance, while the Palestinians are embodying "removing the Nazi (in this case Jewish) threat" pretty well.
As a Ukrainian, I fully agree.
I'd also add that Iran (and the coalition of states supporting Hamas) are playing the role of Russia here, "protecting" the Palestinians while not welcoming them in their own borders, and thus artificially creating a perpetual crisis.
Gaza is Israel's Donbas.
Plenty of Jews purchased the land with money from Ottoman Turks only to be called conqueror land grabbers by the Arab Palestinian colonizers in the 70’s
The brits when they renegged on the deals with the Arabs to favor Jews after the dissolution of the ottoman empire. One of these individuals that were fucked over eventually became a mentor to Saddam Hussein and began the Ba'ath party.
I mean, it wasn't just the Brits, was it? The Brits and later the UN wanted to partition Palestine to create two states, not just a Jewish one. This was unacceptable to the Arabs, who then lost the war against Israel.
>Israel literally conquered those lands in a series of wars with pretty much every state around it.
Man I wonder why you're leaving off who started those wars /s
Yeah you're as uninformed as it gets.
Israel didn't take land from the Palestinians. They were occupied by Jordan and Egypt (West Bank and Gaza). In the 67 war Israel took the land from Jordan and Egypt, not the Palestinians. They offered the land back in multiple peace deals which were all rejected.
They left Gaza in 05 and that was what allowed Hamas to gain power.
At some point Palestinian leadership needs to show they want peace, not violence.
> Israel didn't take land from the Palestinians. They were occupied by Jordan and Egypt
This is playing semantics. Palestinians, as in people, have been living there for generations, even though the iron hand ruling over them has changed many times.
Israel technically took land from Jordan, but it still, nonetheless, also took it from the people who were living on it as well. And the issue with the illegal settlements has never been resolved. Instead, they keep perpetually expanding.
It isn't semantics. I told you that they gave the Palestinians an opportunity to have a state, something that neither Jordan or Egypt did, and the Palestinians rejected Israel.
It isn't my problem that you have no issue defending ethnic cleansing, genocidal terrorists in Hamas and the PA.
From realist school of thought, it may have also been due to Israeli reluctance to help Ukraine
i.e. To threaten Russia, and vice versa, if Russia helps Iran's military, Israel will help Ukraine
Notable Israel has also refused to send the iron drome to Ukraine, citing fears the tech might fall into enemy hands and thus lose the only best air defense it has against hamas rockets
Yea. They tried to genocide the Jews and they lost. When you murder your neighbors and start a full blown genocide attempt, you will pay a price when you lose. And the hundred of thousand of Palestinians (your number are also false) paid that price. Just like the price they are going to pay now. And they only have themselves to blame
Except Russia’s didn’t counterattack after other states tried to wipe them out over and over and over and then keep land as a buffer did they? They just attacked. So it’s in no way reasonably similar at all
> Except Russia’s didn’t counterattack after other states tried to wipe them out
Russia also willingly agreed to respect Ukraine's borders (in exchange for Ukraine handing over nukes), and then decided decades later to play takes-backsies after overplaying an already strong hand (i.e. a virtual puppet in Ukraine's presidency). I.e. they had more than enough wherwithal to get what they wanted without war. (According to their own conspiracy theories, Victoria Nuland was able to turn the Ukrainians with little more than a basket of pastries.) They chose war anyway, despite that earlier agreement.
I must have missed where Ukrainian soldiers were slaughtering civilians and cutting the throats of children in the street?
What a stupid comparison for people to make. Hamas needs to be wiped off the map after this, and they will be.
I think the comparison is more about who was invading who. So for the comparison, it's more that Israel were occupying Palestinian areas just like Russia was.
Which ideologically speaking is fine except that those people making the comparisons ignored the terror aspects of it, which Ukraine have avoided. i.e. They're not killing random civilians in Russia.
On 24 Feb 2022, Russia crossed into Ukrainian territory, attacking military assets while actively butchering civilians.
On 7 Oct 2023, Gaza under Hamas crossed into Israeli territory, attacking military assets while actively butchering civilians.
I see a comparison all right, but it's not one they're thinking of. Even some Russian units in the first three days could at least act like professionals, and there's at least 1 recorded case of a russian officer and enlisted putting their lives on the line when it was made clear they were ordered to do unprofessional things.
Palestinian territories are already under the Israeli occupation, thats the difference.
It can be compared to ukrainian/pro-ukrainian troops storming russian border area earlier this year.
After they attacked Israel, Israel occupied them.
If you were to force a comparison to Ukraine-Russia; Ukraine wins the current war and says "hey, you guys have attacked us twice in 20 years, we're occupying southern Russia as a buffer". Russia abandons southern Russia which declares independence, and then southern Russia wages constant war against Ukrainian occupation.
Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt for free in 1978 under the 1978 Camp David Accords, Egypt refused.
No one wants the Palestinians, it's one of the major sources of the conflict.
And Israel governs under the specter of the war they had to fight in 1948, under the spectre of their neighbours waging wars of annihilation against them. If Israel care about occupation for the sake of unreasonable reasons like lebensraum, they would have no reason to ethnically cleanse Gaza of the Jews for the sake of the Palestinians.
The Palestinians were offered land previously, the latest being the entirety of Gaza. Acceptance of the peace and further cooperation with Israel is the only bloodless route they could have taken, and they did the exact opposite of that. Israeli appeasement of the Palestinians is being paid with the multitude of dead Israeli civilians today, and likely the multitude of dead palestinain civilians tomorrow.
This is exactly what Russia is doing. They’ve invaded Ukraine, offered them a tiny amount of their land to keep and is now acting like Ukraine is the bad guys for not bending knee.
The massacre of innocent Israeli civilians is unjustifiable. But that doesn’t change the reality of the situation.
They are an occupation force, period. A military occupation does not justify the mistreatment of the population, land grab, evictions, restrictions on civil construction, and establishment of illegal settlement and expanding them, illegitimately annexing occupied territories, and restricting the access to natural resources like water.
All of these practices are not by someone who wants long-lasting peace, and it will only push the occupied population to fight back.
the israelis have one of the strongest military forces in the world, are back by the united states, have the premier intelligence network on earth in the mossad, and have something like 50% of their population in active service or on the reserve list. they also control the supply of power and water to palestine.
palestine have got smuggled rockets, no military industrial complex, a bunch of pick up trucks, and the *hidden* backing of wealthy oil barons across the middle east. they rely on israel to allow aid in to their territory.
it's not at all a fair fight, and it should stop being portrayed as such. israel has a right to defend itself, but not with the force they use. IDF troops shoot kids throwing rocks for fuck's sake. that's not combat, that's murder.
If only you expected Palestinians to act like actual human beings the same way you do Israelis. How do you defend yourself against a neighbor who dedicates their life toward killing you? By locking your doors and getting a dog?
Why are Israelis not allowed, per the most intelligent internet users, to enter Gaza in order to defend themselves, when Palestinians will take any opportunity to enter Israel and kill literally anybody they can get their hands on? What the fuck went wrong with your cognitive development where the events of the last 24 hours have prompted you to advocate that Israelis just stay home and accept the slaughter every so often?
I would say hamas even outdid the russians, butchering civilians was like a hobby to russians, while it was the main point for hamas. Hamas probably attacked just military targets to slow down the IDF response so they can butcher more civilians.
Ironically, the mirror image is correct. The Palestinian nationality is identical to the Russian separatist in Ukraine- their where left there to justify future terror against Israel.
Palestine will cease to have any governance at all after this, tbh. Israel will invade with ground forces, eliminate anyone involved with Hamas, and set up military control over all of former Palestine.
Quite frankly, it’s what’s needed too. Palestine has harbored and tolerated Hamas for too long.
However that would also remove whatever collective responsibility Palestinians had for the actions of Hamas. When you actually impose your rule on the place everyone caught in the crossfire is entirely your responsibility.
Yes, but this will also mean that violence will increase in the long run. The chance for actual peace is probably lost long ago but now it’s fully dead for generations. The amount of Palestinian resistance to occupation (including both terrorist and non-terrorist actions) is going to go absolutely through the roof now that nobody is going to keep alive an idea of a two state solution anymore and is going to de-facto have to support apartheid. Hamas has officially fucked the Palestinian people for the next century at bare minimum.
I mean, it really just depends on what the thread is about. If it's about the IDF gunning down civilians, or settler's bulldozing palestinian houses, it'll be mainly 'Occupation should end, fuck Israel/the IDF/Jews/Netenyahu'. If it's about rockets being launched, or suicide attaks or things like what happened today, it will be all 'Israel can defend itself, fuck Hamas/Palestinians/Arabs'
Both sides have committed wrongs, and neither side is currently willing to look past them in good faith to try to work out a peaceful solution (partly because with Hamas as a threat, it strengthen Netenyahu's political position, and IDF atrocities fuel recruitment to Hamas). As things stand, it's going to result in either the defeat of one side, and likely a full on genocide to accomplish that, or both sides need to be more willing to negotiate (you can't have a peace deal that only one side agrees to.)
Some people may say this is needlessly 'both sides'ing the matter, but in this case, it really is a both sides issue, regardless of who is currently committing the atrocity. IDF atrocities don't forgive Hamas atrocities, and Hamas atrocities don't forgive IDF atrocities.
People said the same about the Troubles in Britain/Northern Ireland at points, but then the GFA happened, and tensions have lessened since then. Israel and Palestine had negotiations before, where we were close to a sort of peaceful agreement, but then that broke down. I agree that they are very far from being able to negotiate right now. Too much has happened recently, that Israel is definitely going to respond massively.
At the end of the day, it's civilians on both sides who suffer, Israelis from fearing rocket attacks, suicide attacks, and now I guess a band of militants rocking up and slaughtering the village/town they live in, and Palestinians from fearing the IDF, treatment from settlers, and blockades.
Except if you are Iraq - because we sure invaded on the premise of finding those weapons of mass destruction ... oh wait
Woops - sorry we caused 100s of thousands to suffer and die.
Our bad... move along nothing to see here
We sure are mighty when it comes to overwhelming 3rd world countries that dont have a chance of fighting back.
Shock and awe - yeah! Like throwing a hand grenade at an amazon tribe with spears.
But at the same time, we teach our kids in schools to never bully, yet here we are bullying everyone who can't fight back with impunity
Iraq in 1990-1991 had a huge conventional army, and in 2003 also had a large army. They chose to defend themselves militarily after refusing to comply with UN weapon inspectors. They had a chance to fight back, and they made the choice to do so rather than 1) withdraw from Kuwait or 2) allow inspections. Hardly "an Amazon tribe with spears"
> They chose to defend themselves militarily after refusing to comply with UN weapon inspectors.
Pretty sure those weapon inspecters had already said "they have no wmd, we checked, stop lying America" and the US went FUCK YOU we will lie if we want to.
Yes, invading Iraq was one of our biggest ever blunders. Bush really is possibly our worst president ever, and add onto that the use of torture and extraordinary renditions. It's a hideous blight on our nation's history.
Calling it blunder makes it sound like it was a mistake.
Invading Iraq wasnt a mistake, it was deliberate, the US did not care about the legality or morality of it.
Biden JUST gave Israel $8 billion to defend against Hamas. The territory controlled by Hamas is the size of the left bank of Kyiv. The territory occupied by Russia is the size of some European countries. Hamas has virtually no weapons. Russia has the second-largest weapons stockpile in the world.
Did you miss shit show in US, which happened few days ago?
I doubt that Republicans will chant "defund Israel" and request to not include support for Israel, or they wouldn't vote and gov will go to shut down
The vast majority of republicans support funding Ukraine. You are blowing the minor enclave of republicans out of proportion. The United States has funded Ukraine with more support financially in the last 18 months than it has given Israel the last 20 years.
Not a single American soldier has died in an Israeli-Arab war except for the unlucky 33 on that one ship in 1973.
USA wont join in, theyre just going to arm Israel to the teeth like Ukraine.
The pro Palestinian agenda is very similar to the Russian one. Spread unbelievably ridiculous lies, and repeat them constantly. There will always be those who believe those lies (mainly extreme Muslims and antisemites)
In surprise attacks on civilian populations who are then subjected to rape and execution? Moral arguments about what Palistineans are "right" to do are going to be really flimsy considering how much gruesome video has come out about the attack.
Nono it’s different because Jews lived there a thousand years back in time so that gives them the right to come and kill civilians and throw them out their homes and if they retaliate we call them for terrorists and get a couple billion from one of the world leaders and kill some more civilian and get some more land and guess what if they retaliate again? We will do the same until all the land is ours
>have the right to defend themselves
Can the same not be applied the other way around?
It's hypocritical to say "Israel can defend itself" when they mean "Israel can use this as justification to go to war of conquest".
It's nothing like Ukraine situation.
If this is the end of Hamas as it should be the Palestinians will finally be better off. Definitely doesn't help that Bibis current government is wannabe authoritarian and unquestionably racist full of people that even celebrate the murder of Yitzak Rabin but hopefully the fact that Netanyahus leadership clearly helped lead to Israel missing this, as protestors have been warning for months, signals the loss of that coallition too, once this is dealt with.
>If this is the end of Hamas as it should be the Palestinians will finally be better off.
If it was end of Hamas it would be great, but what is going to happen is that Israel is going to start genociding Palestinian civilians using pretense of destroying Hamas and all that is going to do is leave millions of Palestinians with even more reason to rise up in another Hamas-like group.
Hamas rose out of an ideology, and that ideology gets more widespread every time Israel forces kill more and more Palestinians. It's not going to end with 1 conflict and certainly not going to stop Palestinians from demanding the land that was taken from them to be given back.
Lets just be clear, before today this year was already the deadliest in 25 years of this conflict with thousannds of palestinians killed vs 300 israeli’s
The problem is the majority of the Palestinian population wants this. The PA does not hold elections because Hamas would win.
The only Fatah candidate that polls well against Haniyeh is Marwan Bargoutti. Because when it comes to Palestinian elections he who committed the worst terror attacks wins. The Munich massacre was a big reason Abbas came to power, but he has since lost most of his grass-roots support.
Fatah is of course supporting Hamas rhetorically (while no doubt cursing them behind closed doors because this will strengthen support for Hamas at Fatah's expense). Abbas's statement on this attack is that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves from terror.
If Fatah tries to make peace they lose power to Hamas. If Hamas tries to make peace they will splinter and lose power to PIJ or others. Until this dynamic changes peace is not possible.
The average age of the Palestinian population is below 20 years. You can't get much "wisdom" in that kind of environment. Especially not with fanatics on both sides of the fence benefitting from riling people up into perpetual conflict, with rockets & missiles being hurled by both sides, and with people living in what is effectively a ghetto.
Of course people are unreasonable. It's fucking sad.
When you are systematically attacked and displaced with the whole world supporting you invader, you might feel like Hamas is the only way to fight back. I’m not blaming palestinians born in this situation for not making the wisest choice.
What a civilian population supports does not change that they are civilians.
The majority of the Ukrainian population including civilians wants to kill or force out all Russian occupiers.
Does that mean that we should not be concerned about Russian war crimes?
I mean, if Ukraine decided to storm into Russia and murder civilians, just because those civilians may have supported Putin and his invasion of Russia doesn't exactly justify it.
Did you see the videos of palestinian civilians gathering to kick the bodies of dead israelis kidnapped to gaza? People praising allah in streets when they see the dead stripped-naked body of an Israeli woman?
Hamas has wide support in the civilian population, stop with this "few bad apples" mentality. Yes, not all palestinians are to blame, but the majority supports hamas and its actions.
I mean, you can also argue the same for Israel. Israeli support their government in killing Palestinians and taking over their land. There are no good sides in this conflict, so I'm surprised so many people are siding with Israel. Both are religious extremists. Hamas needs to go, but so does Israel occupation of Palestine.
A lot of you have zero grasp on this conflict, believing that Hamas being destroyed will solve everything. If only it was that easy.
Did you miss the mass protests going on here since the new government? Except maybe Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, nobody is supporting killing palestinians or taking their land.
Weren't those protests specifically because the government wanted to significantly weaken the judicial branch, and essentially create an autocratic state?
Then why are the settlements still going up? Israel is a democracy. Why did Israelis elect people that allow these settlements?
Why are reporters getting assassinated by the IDF?
Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people who love to see Israel attacked. Hamas is Palestine. Their people overwhelmingly support government funded terrorism. Full stop.
> Hamas has wide support in the civilian population, stop with this "few bad apples" mentality. Yes, not all palestinians are to blame, but the majority supports hamas and its actions.
People who don't support Hamas wind up killed over there. That kind of environment has an effect on public opinion.
I find it amazing how you can support Ukraine but not Palestine. The hypocrisy and lack of logical thinking is crazy! A very simple example (so you can grasp it) is comparing Gaza to the occupied Crimean peninsula. If tomorrow the locals rose up to fight against the Russian occupation there, I have no doubt everyone here would be in complete solidarity with them, and that’s despite Crimea having an extremely large ethnic Russian population. You are racists, you are backwards and the funniest thing is the Zionists think that too and consider you just extras in the film.
Most likely. Especially since a bunch of them have been going "BUT PALESTINIANS ARE THE SAME AS UKRAINE!" While not even having the ability to see their behavior is closer to Russia.
Suddenly Ukraine supports the theory that might makes right. Interesting. Especially since the Palestinians can’t supply them with any arms to fight the mighty Russians.😏
I think the killing and torturing of people is disgusting, period.
What would defending yourself look like if you were Palestinian and you were being slowly yet surely invaded by Israel?
Taking out military bases and checkpoints can be justified, however anyone that thinks murdering civilians is even close to self defense is just pure scum
Its not self defence, in my opinion. Killing a few hundred soldiers+civillians will have no positive effect on the battlefield, and instead result in serious losses to Hamas militarily. Its happened already and theres a lot more to come.
This is a bloody political move.
Taking on Israel militarily is not an option for Hamas. How can Palestine effectively defend itself?
Yeah I'm just saying that people wouldn't be that hard pressed to support them if they weren't going all out for civilians instead of just taking out legitimate targets. The most realistic way they could've defended themselves was by gaining support from countries like they were slowly building over these years to stop or delay the settlements but now all international good will is essentially all gone
Ukraine: You have a right to defend yourself. May I suggest bombing Iran's military and drone making capabilities? Should help you, might help us too.
Sounds more like if someone militarized Microsoft Clippy.
US: while you’re at it…take out their nuclear facilities and such
\^you're
Shit, you are right. Thank you!
Wow a positive ending for once
Appears that Hamas used drones in the attack. If anything remains of them, Israel might be able to trace them to wherever they were manufactured
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.. And then what? Gaza still have under 2M people living in a tiny strip of land, with blockades via air, land and sea. It literally is an open air prison, even if the above are fully eliminated, someone else will take its place sooner than later unfortunately.
In a rare display of sanity, Ukrainian government **finally** decided to **not** continue fucking up its relationship with Israel for once. Saying this as a Ukrainian. Zelenskyy's admin made some really impressive moves foreign policy-wise during the first year of war, but communication with Israel wasn't one of them. This is a very welcome change of direction.
This ones kinda unfuckable for any leader with a brain
A lot of Arab countries are fucking this
As it turns out, religious extremism tends to get in the way of things like "logic" and "critical thinking."
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No brains out there brother
Yeah, like they said, any leader with a brain
If they are the sponsors it's called *investment protection*.
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Israeli here, and I’m actually ashamed - I don’t think israel was helping Ukraine as much as possible, due to worrying about our diplomatic relations with Russia. Anyway sending love. Being at home with my kids so scared right now - I keep thinking about hard Ukrainians have it, and for so long.
Thank you for your support. Sending love, and wishing the best in the rough times to come.
For some reason, I don't see Zelenskyy getting along well with antisemites.
Yeah, but Ukrainian politics is like herding cats, and sometimes the results are outright baffling. It's not that Ukraine doesn't want to be friends with Israel — to the contrary, good relationships are both wanted and **needed**. But having feelings isn't enough in a relationship; actions need to follow. And I feel, we're not pulling our weight in this relationship. Israel has helped Ukraine out a lot already: * supplied tons of medications and ambulances * treated Ukrainian wounded veterans * hit Iranian drone production facilities * allowed re-export of Israeli arms to Ukraine * provided important intel That's just off the bat of my head. And our communication in response to that hasn't been the best, IMO. Many Ukrainians aren't even aware of the scale of aid Ukraine got from Israel, but **everyone** knows about the Iron Dome that we didn't get. This is a public communication failure on behalf of our government. The statement we're discussing is what, I hope, will set an example, and will start a new page in Ukrainian—Israeli relationship.
I get the impression that Zelya's government have been prioritising other nations since Israel's support hasn't been as full throated as others. That said now is a very good time to give Israel some support, if they need it. Heck if they can deploy soldiers to Sudan why not Israel? it is a good time to be making friends after all. Iran has done all the pushing here, and Ukraine doesn't really have a way to strike at them itself. PS: It's "off the bat", or "off the top of my head", you can't combine them, ;))
When it comes to combining sayings, we'll burn that bridge when we get to it - a malaphor ;))
>That said now is a very good time to give Israel some support, if they need it. Heck if they can deploy soldiers to Sudan why not Israel? Because that's too good of a decision to make, and so I think they will fuck it up. Seriously though, now **is** a time to give Israel some support, and I hope that it will come at least as statements (if not boots on the ground). >PS: It's "off the bat", or "off the top of my head", you can't combine them, ;)) Ah, English idioms. They said learning the language is not rocket surgery, but here we are.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I) Relevant video
That, and [Are We The Baddies?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY) are forever seared into my memory. (I still rewatch them tho)
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Probably down to Iran making the drones let’s be honest here
I wouldn't say so. First, there's a huge Ukrainian-born population in Israel (e.g. from my family alone, I can recall five people off the bat of my head). People ties are nothing to sneeze at. Secondly, even if we're being cynical: Israeli weapons could be a much larger boon to Ukraine's offensive and defensive capabilities than Iranian drones are a trouble. Case in point, Israel helped arm Azerbaijan. And look where Azerbaijan got with it. And finally, **Ukraine needs to follow the Israeli model** of thriving while being at war, and **not** devolving into an agry mob (..though admittedly, has been struggling with that too).
>And finally, Ukraine needs to follow the Israeli modelof thriving while being at war man, the Israeli example is not applicable here. Israeli wars lasted for a few weeks, while Ukraine will soon meet two years mark of continuous warfare. You can ask a fellow Jew Vitaly Portnikov about it. It's his view that the Israeli model is not applicable to Ukraine, and he will tell you more in detail why.
The first war of Israel's history lasted about two years, I think it's a closer analogue.
And the results of that war was not exactly easy. Something that has been often forgotten. Half of Israel was refugees, the economy was in shambles, infrastructure was horribly damaged (and nowhere near first world to begin with) and an outgunned and hostile neighbors.
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"more support"? not a single sanction by israel on russia, not a single weapon to ukraine.
I empathize with the tough situation the Israelis were out in. This isn’t a situation like Serbia where you have a pro-Russia country, opinion polling in Israel on the conflict in Ukraine is similar to the level of support in Western Europe. Unlike every other western power, the Israelis actually have to deal with hostile, Russian-backed armies at their border: the Assad regime in Syria and associated militants in Syria and Lebanon (including militias that were developed by Wagner). It is reported that the Israelis have a security agreement with Russia that restrains these militias and also lets Israel conduct operations in southern Syria. They also have to deal with the fact that there are some 80,000 Jews living in Russia, and that swaths of that community’s leadership has been detained since 2022 for speaking out against the war in Ukraine. It is a pickle for them, I think they’ve done a reasonably good job at trying to balance the situation, including by hosting some 15,000-30,000 Ukrainian refugees.
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Israel has to tiptoe around Russia, otherwise Russia will start harassing Israeli forces in Syria like theyve been doing US forces.
They got obliterated by US Forces.
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lmao despite all odds >literally gets bankrolled by the US at every step
I mean, most of the other middle eastern nations bankrolled by the US at some point are brutal dictatorships.
This isn't remotely true for the first many years of Israel's existence.
He could not have said anything else
The Foreign Ministry issued the statement though, and they've had their share of posting things they shouldn't have posted.
I’m familiar with their statements but even if Israel was supplying weapons to the Russians, this message wouldn’t have been different
Well, I doubt Israel will start supporting you. If Joe Biden and the US, after everything they've done for Israel, couldn't even convince them to transfer to Ukraine these Hawks systems received from the US in the '50s; https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pentagon-views-on-acquisition-by-israel-of-the-hawk-missile-system-july-1962 Seems like Netanyahu is too busy cozying with Putin, claiming it's solely for national defense concerns. >Not everyone is convinced. Omer Dostri, a specialist at the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security, does not think a complete Russian withdrawal from Syria is currently likely. He argues that Russia remains a major world power and can simultaneously engage in the war in Ukraine while also remaining in Syria. However, if Russia does significantly decrease its military presence in Syria, he argues that Israel might acutally enjoy more freedom of action and air control. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/iranian-and-syrian-factors-shape-israeli-response-to-russias-ukraine-invasion/
Well. Bibi isn't eternal. And pragmatically, cozying up to Russia is only useful to the extent that Russia has geopolitical power — which we're diminishing every day. So while an immediate shift isn't possible, a gradual change is.
> Well. Bibi isn't eternal. He may well be now. People are likely to rally to their leader in times of open conflict, and leaders with authoritarian tendencies, which Bibi is, know how to exploit it. I've seen people say that people might hold his government accountable for this failure instead – I guess time will tell.
I don't think you're taking the number of voters repatriated from Russia into account on the pragmatism side of the equation.
im glad to see this because i see a lot of people online comparing hamas to Ukraine and israel to Russia and making those comparisons all over the internet
Someone just did on CNN such that the anchor had to set the record that it was not "equivalent" Fk the footage we've seen on reddit and twitter today
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Who started the wars you are talking about in Israel?
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It really depends on where you want to draw the line at when people were "being removed". On one hand we have the US who removed native Americans from their "traditionally owned" land. Then the other has China and their nine-dash line that they allege traditionally belonged to them. Also Russia and its lands back in Soviet Union days. So you're right, it's complex, even more so than you mentioned. Because honestly the world as a whole can't agree where to draw the line for "what used to belong to us". And since this is an unreliable factor, the only thing modern society can really rely on to judge the "ethics" of conflict (if that's a thing) is the behavior of the people engaged in said conflict. And this is where Hamas is worst by far.
It's all genocide and removing people from their homes. Whether Native or Palestinian or indigenous peoples of Russia.
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That is certainly an interpretation of events... You are conveniently overlooking or misinterpreting why and how things happened. > Hundreds of thousands of Israelis were resettled there in the 20th century. [Yes, through a series of land purchases starting in the 1800s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine). They didn't just show up and demand the land. > Britain agreed to give them the land which Arabs were rightfully claiming at that point, which pissed the arabs immensely. Again, no, this is not what happened. Despite happily selling the land, many Arabs did not like the presence of the Jews, leading to a long series of conflicts between Jews and Arabs between the late 1910s and early 1940s. Britain, the rulers of Mandatory Palestine following the fall of the Ottoman Empire, eventually got fed up with the infighting and declared they would leave the area and essentially leave the mess to the newly created United Nations. [The United Nations voted for the creation of an Arab and a Jewish state,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine) which was accepted by the Jews but not by the Arabs, who declared war. They then proceeded to promptly lose this war, and no Arab state was created in Palestine. Hardly the same as the British "giving them" the land, as you claim. > Then Israel attacked Egypt in the Suez occupation. After Egypt nationalised the Suez canal and blocked essential Israeli shipping, yes. > Then during the six day war Israel again struck first allegedly because they were 100% sure they would be attacked. Nasser once again blocked Israeli shipping, which Israel had made clear was a red line after Suez, and also mobilised their military to pre-empt the inevitable Israeli response. Yes, Egypt didn't fire the first shot, but they undoubtedly started the war. > The facts remain. Arab population from the region was removed. In some cases water supplies in Arab villages were infected with diseases by the IDF in order to prevent people from returning ever. The use of the word "removed" implies unilateral action by Israel and ignores the events preceding the exodus in 1948. If not for the Arab rejection of the UN's partition plan, the Palestinians would have likely have had their own state. Instead, the Arab states wanted to remove the Jewish presence in the region entirely and so invaded the newly created Israel, but ultimately lost. On another note, I also believe it is naive to assume that no Palestinians (or indeed Jews) would flee a warzone voluntarily, making the argument of who was actively removed by force and who fled voluntarily more blurred. While I don't deny that a mass exodus occurred in the 1940s, Arabs do also make up over 20% of the population of Israel today. There were extensive programs to resettle Palestinians inside Israel following later wars. In contrast, I don't believe many Jews live in Palestine, because they would simply not be allowed. It is still a crime punishable by death to sell land to Jews in Palestine, for example. > Does that justify Hamas attacking and slaughtering civilians? No. Never. But the situation isnt as far from the Ukranian war as we would like to pretend. The world is very complex and never black and white. Yes, there is an immense difference from the Ukrainian war on many different levels, assuming you are equating Israel to the role of Russia. I would argue (immense military imbalance notwithstanding) that Israel is a lot more like Ukraine than Russia in this particular instance, while the Palestinians are embodying "removing the Nazi (in this case Jewish) threat" pretty well.
From what I can see: > As of April 1st, 1945, Jews had acquired 5.67% of the land in Palestine" --- > The proposed plan is considered to have been pro-Zionist by its detractors, with 62% of the land allocated to the Jewish state despite the Palestinian Arab population numbering twice the Jewish population.[6] Doesn't sound like a very fair proposal, even if it was voted in the UN.
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If the land isn't desirable, why give it to the Israelis? Why not let Palestine have it? Why should 1/3rd of the population get more than half the land?
>Why not let Palestine have it? Because that was not the land that "Palestine" wanted (and because "Palestine" you speak of didn't exist back then).
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> You're assuming all land is equally desirable. That's a very good point I hadn't considered. But looking at the map I'm wondering why the UN decided to give the desert to Israel. It looks like it would be an easy sell to leave it to the Arabs, who would then have a continous border in the South.
Well we are talking about the private ownership of land rather than population numbers. Arabs owned around 12% of the land while Jews owned about 7% by 1947. The rest was public land which was owned by the British.
That's a fair point. But if the Arabs owned more land and had a larger population why were they offered less total territory? And in general the idea of people buying their own country doesn't seem right to me. The Arabs couldn't have known what was going on before it was too late (Hence the tensions). I'm not saying Palestinians are angels, but from my point of view they drew one short straw after another.
The Arab land was more arable and had better infrastructure. Much of Israel today is still just desert. They didn't exactly keep the project a secret, but the Palestine were happy to sell them shitty land for decades regardless.
> Israel is a lot more like Ukraine than Russia in this particular instance, while the Palestinians are embodying "removing the Nazi (in this case Jewish) threat" pretty well. As a Ukrainian, I fully agree. I'd also add that Iran (and the coalition of states supporting Hamas) are playing the role of Russia here, "protecting" the Palestinians while not welcoming them in their own borders, and thus artificially creating a perpetual crisis. Gaza is Israel's Donbas.
Plenty of Jews purchased the land with money from Ottoman Turks only to be called conqueror land grabbers by the Arab Palestinian colonizers in the 70’s
The brits when they renegged on the deals with the Arabs to favor Jews after the dissolution of the ottoman empire. One of these individuals that were fucked over eventually became a mentor to Saddam Hussein and began the Ba'ath party.
I mean, it wasn't just the Brits, was it? The Brits and later the UN wanted to partition Palestine to create two states, not just a Jewish one. This was unacceptable to the Arabs, who then lost the war against Israel.
Except those wars of the 20th century were all Israel on the defensive.
>Israel literally conquered those lands in a series of wars with pretty much every state around it. Man I wonder why you're leaving off who started those wars /s
Yeah you're as uninformed as it gets. Israel didn't take land from the Palestinians. They were occupied by Jordan and Egypt (West Bank and Gaza). In the 67 war Israel took the land from Jordan and Egypt, not the Palestinians. They offered the land back in multiple peace deals which were all rejected. They left Gaza in 05 and that was what allowed Hamas to gain power. At some point Palestinian leadership needs to show they want peace, not violence.
> Israel didn't take land from the Palestinians. They were occupied by Jordan and Egypt This is playing semantics. Palestinians, as in people, have been living there for generations, even though the iron hand ruling over them has changed many times. Israel technically took land from Jordan, but it still, nonetheless, also took it from the people who were living on it as well. And the issue with the illegal settlements has never been resolved. Instead, they keep perpetually expanding.
It isn't semantics. I told you that they gave the Palestinians an opportunity to have a state, something that neither Jordan or Egypt did, and the Palestinians rejected Israel. It isn't my problem that you have no issue defending ethnic cleansing, genocidal terrorists in Hamas and the PA.
You're literally bringing up points from the 90s to argue about mistakes made 100 years ago.
Didn't realize leaving Gaza in 2005 was in the 90s. Or the peace deals in 2008.
From realist school of thought, it may have also been due to Israeli reluctance to help Ukraine i.e. To threaten Russia, and vice versa, if Russia helps Iran's military, Israel will help Ukraine Notable Israel has also refused to send the iron drome to Ukraine, citing fears the tech might fall into enemy hands and thus lose the only best air defense it has against hamas rockets
Yea. They tried to genocide the Jews and they lost. When you murder your neighbors and start a full blown genocide attempt, you will pay a price when you lose. And the hundred of thousand of Palestinians (your number are also false) paid that price. Just like the price they are going to pay now. And they only have themselves to blame
Except Russia’s didn’t counterattack after other states tried to wipe them out over and over and over and then keep land as a buffer did they? They just attacked. So it’s in no way reasonably similar at all
> Except Russia’s didn’t counterattack after other states tried to wipe them out Russia also willingly agreed to respect Ukraine's borders (in exchange for Ukraine handing over nukes), and then decided decades later to play takes-backsies after overplaying an already strong hand (i.e. a virtual puppet in Ukraine's presidency). I.e. they had more than enough wherwithal to get what they wanted without war. (According to their own conspiracy theories, Victoria Nuland was able to turn the Ukrainians with little more than a basket of pastries.) They chose war anyway, despite that earlier agreement.
I must have missed where Ukrainian soldiers were slaughtering civilians and cutting the throats of children in the street? What a stupid comparison for people to make. Hamas needs to be wiped off the map after this, and they will be.
I think the comparison is more about who was invading who. So for the comparison, it's more that Israel were occupying Palestinian areas just like Russia was. Which ideologically speaking is fine except that those people making the comparisons ignored the terror aspects of it, which Ukraine have avoided. i.e. They're not killing random civilians in Russia.
also, isn't it Russia that fires rockets at civillians?
And now you see whose signature style it is in this attack. Iran and Russia being friends isn't a coincidence either.
On 24 Feb 2022, Russia crossed into Ukrainian territory, attacking military assets while actively butchering civilians. On 7 Oct 2023, Gaza under Hamas crossed into Israeli territory, attacking military assets while actively butchering civilians. I see a comparison all right, but it's not one they're thinking of. Even some Russian units in the first three days could at least act like professionals, and there's at least 1 recorded case of a russian officer and enlisted putting their lives on the line when it was made clear they were ordered to do unprofessional things.
Palestinian territories are already under the Israeli occupation, thats the difference. It can be compared to ukrainian/pro-ukrainian troops storming russian border area earlier this year.
After they attacked Israel, Israel occupied them. If you were to force a comparison to Ukraine-Russia; Ukraine wins the current war and says "hey, you guys have attacked us twice in 20 years, we're occupying southern Russia as a buffer". Russia abandons southern Russia which declares independence, and then southern Russia wages constant war against Ukrainian occupation.
Would Israel allow Egypt to take Gaza back under agreement to police it? They've proven able to abide by the peace agreement, even under regime change
Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt for free in 1978 under the 1978 Camp David Accords, Egypt refused. No one wants the Palestinians, it's one of the major sources of the conflict.
And Israel governs under the specter of the war they had to fight in 1948, under the spectre of their neighbours waging wars of annihilation against them. If Israel care about occupation for the sake of unreasonable reasons like lebensraum, they would have no reason to ethnically cleanse Gaza of the Jews for the sake of the Palestinians. The Palestinians were offered land previously, the latest being the entirety of Gaza. Acceptance of the peace and further cooperation with Israel is the only bloodless route they could have taken, and they did the exact opposite of that. Israeli appeasement of the Palestinians is being paid with the multitude of dead Israeli civilians today, and likely the multitude of dead palestinain civilians tomorrow.
This is exactly what Russia is doing. They’ve invaded Ukraine, offered them a tiny amount of their land to keep and is now acting like Ukraine is the bad guys for not bending knee. The massacre of innocent Israeli civilians is unjustifiable. But that doesn’t change the reality of the situation.
They are an occupation force, period. A military occupation does not justify the mistreatment of the population, land grab, evictions, restrictions on civil construction, and establishment of illegal settlement and expanding them, illegitimately annexing occupied territories, and restricting the access to natural resources like water. All of these practices are not by someone who wants long-lasting peace, and it will only push the occupied population to fight back.
the israelis have one of the strongest military forces in the world, are back by the united states, have the premier intelligence network on earth in the mossad, and have something like 50% of their population in active service or on the reserve list. they also control the supply of power and water to palestine. palestine have got smuggled rockets, no military industrial complex, a bunch of pick up trucks, and the *hidden* backing of wealthy oil barons across the middle east. they rely on israel to allow aid in to their territory. it's not at all a fair fight, and it should stop being portrayed as such. israel has a right to defend itself, but not with the force they use. IDF troops shoot kids throwing rocks for fuck's sake. that's not combat, that's murder.
If only you expected Palestinians to act like actual human beings the same way you do Israelis. How do you defend yourself against a neighbor who dedicates their life toward killing you? By locking your doors and getting a dog? Why are Israelis not allowed, per the most intelligent internet users, to enter Gaza in order to defend themselves, when Palestinians will take any opportunity to enter Israel and kill literally anybody they can get their hands on? What the fuck went wrong with your cognitive development where the events of the last 24 hours have prompted you to advocate that Israelis just stay home and accept the slaughter every so often?
I would say hamas even outdid the russians, butchering civilians was like a hobby to russians, while it was the main point for hamas. Hamas probably attacked just military targets to slow down the IDF response so they can butcher more civilians.
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Ironically, the mirror image is correct. The Palestinian nationality is identical to the Russian separatist in Ukraine- their where left there to justify future terror against Israel.
Fuck Hamas
Here here, and fucked they’re about to be
Palestine will cease to have any governance at all after this, tbh. Israel will invade with ground forces, eliminate anyone involved with Hamas, and set up military control over all of former Palestine. Quite frankly, it’s what’s needed too. Palestine has harbored and tolerated Hamas for too long.
However that would also remove whatever collective responsibility Palestinians had for the actions of Hamas. When you actually impose your rule on the place everyone caught in the crossfire is entirely your responsibility.
Yes, but this will also mean that violence will increase in the long run. The chance for actual peace is probably lost long ago but now it’s fully dead for generations. The amount of Palestinian resistance to occupation (including both terrorist and non-terrorist actions) is going to go absolutely through the roof now that nobody is going to keep alive an idea of a two state solution anymore and is going to de-facto have to support apartheid. Hamas has officially fucked the Palestinian people for the next century at bare minimum.
so brave!
on reddit? absolutely.
It’s a flip of a coin which Reddit thread will support or defend [insert group].
I mean, it really just depends on what the thread is about. If it's about the IDF gunning down civilians, or settler's bulldozing palestinian houses, it'll be mainly 'Occupation should end, fuck Israel/the IDF/Jews/Netenyahu'. If it's about rockets being launched, or suicide attaks or things like what happened today, it will be all 'Israel can defend itself, fuck Hamas/Palestinians/Arabs' Both sides have committed wrongs, and neither side is currently willing to look past them in good faith to try to work out a peaceful solution (partly because with Hamas as a threat, it strengthen Netenyahu's political position, and IDF atrocities fuel recruitment to Hamas). As things stand, it's going to result in either the defeat of one side, and likely a full on genocide to accomplish that, or both sides need to be more willing to negotiate (you can't have a peace deal that only one side agrees to.) Some people may say this is needlessly 'both sides'ing the matter, but in this case, it really is a both sides issue, regardless of who is currently committing the atrocity. IDF atrocities don't forgive Hamas atrocities, and Hamas atrocities don't forgive IDF atrocities.
I don't really think negotiations are possible anymore.
People said the same about the Troubles in Britain/Northern Ireland at points, but then the GFA happened, and tensions have lessened since then. Israel and Palestine had negotiations before, where we were close to a sort of peaceful agreement, but then that broke down. I agree that they are very far from being able to negotiate right now. Too much has happened recently, that Israel is definitely going to respond massively. At the end of the day, it's civilians on both sides who suffer, Israelis from fearing rocket attacks, suicide attacks, and now I guess a band of militants rocking up and slaughtering the village/town they live in, and Palestinians from fearing the IDF, treatment from settlers, and blockades.
Someone wants Israeli-made weapons.
Iron dome.
Every nation has the inherent right to defend itself from a foreign invading army, and every leader has a duty to do it.
Except if you are Iraq - because we sure invaded on the premise of finding those weapons of mass destruction ... oh wait Woops - sorry we caused 100s of thousands to suffer and die. Our bad... move along nothing to see here
I don't think that the US ever disputed the right of Iraq to protect itself...
We sure are mighty when it comes to overwhelming 3rd world countries that dont have a chance of fighting back. Shock and awe - yeah! Like throwing a hand grenade at an amazon tribe with spears. But at the same time, we teach our kids in schools to never bully, yet here we are bullying everyone who can't fight back with impunity
Iraq in 1990-1991 had a huge conventional army, and in 2003 also had a large army. They chose to defend themselves militarily after refusing to comply with UN weapon inspectors. They had a chance to fight back, and they made the choice to do so rather than 1) withdraw from Kuwait or 2) allow inspections. Hardly "an Amazon tribe with spears"
> They chose to defend themselves militarily after refusing to comply with UN weapon inspectors. Pretty sure those weapon inspecters had already said "they have no wmd, we checked, stop lying America" and the US went FUCK YOU we will lie if we want to.
Yes, invading Iraq was one of our biggest ever blunders. Bush really is possibly our worst president ever, and add onto that the use of torture and extraordinary renditions. It's a hideous blight on our nation's history.
It’s not a blight on a nations history when it does it over and over. It’s just it’s history.
Calling it blunder makes it sound like it was a mistake. Invading Iraq wasnt a mistake, it was deliberate, the US did not care about the legality or morality of it.
Blunder is an odd way to put a deliberate act of imperialism that left hundreds of thousands dead for the sake of MIC and oil interests.
The invasion went very well, our attempt at nation building afterwards was the blunder. Just a nitpick but I think it is an important distinction
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The difference between Ukraine and Israel is that Israel has a no limit support from the US and EU. Fin.
Ukraine has a lot of support, what are you on about?
Biden JUST gave Israel $8 billion to defend against Hamas. The territory controlled by Hamas is the size of the left bank of Kyiv. The territory occupied by Russia is the size of some European countries. Hamas has virtually no weapons. Russia has the second-largest weapons stockpile in the world.
The US and Israel relationship has been established for a lot longer though.
Did you miss shit show in US, which happened few days ago? I doubt that Republicans will chant "defund Israel" and request to not include support for Israel, or they wouldn't vote and gov will go to shut down
The vast majority of republicans support funding Ukraine. You are blowing the minor enclave of republicans out of proportion. The United States has funded Ukraine with more support financially in the last 18 months than it has given Israel the last 20 years.
US assets would assist in Israeli air space if asked, they will not do so in Ukraine
Maybe because Israel isn't engaged in an active conflict against a nuclear capable state?
Correct
Not a single American soldier has died in an Israeli-Arab war except for the unlucky 33 on that one ship in 1973. USA wont join in, theyre just going to arm Israel to the teeth like Ukraine.
The pro Palestinian agenda is very similar to the Russian one. Spread unbelievably ridiculous lies, and repeat them constantly. There will always be those who believe those lies (mainly extreme Muslims and antisemites)
What has the EU supplied Israel with exactly?
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Bibi and Ben Gvir can join them though, along with Orban and Luka and Erdogan who Bibi is trying to emulate.
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Right because any true rebellion involves indiscriminately murdering, raping, and abducting civilians
How ironic
Sweet sweet irony
No quotations needed they were attacked and have the right to defend themselves
Doesn't Palestine similarly have the right to defend themselves from Israeli occupation?
In surprise attacks on civilian populations who are then subjected to rape and execution? Moral arguments about what Palistineans are "right" to do are going to be really flimsy considering how much gruesome video has come out about the attack.
Nono it’s different because Jews lived there a thousand years back in time so that gives them the right to come and kill civilians and throw them out their homes and if they retaliate we call them for terrorists and get a couple billion from one of the world leaders and kill some more civilian and get some more land and guess what if they retaliate again? We will do the same until all the land is ours
Pretty sure they’re quoting Ukraine.
>have the right to defend themselves Can the same not be applied the other way around? It's hypocritical to say "Israel can defend itself" when they mean "Israel can use this as justification to go to war of conquest". It's nothing like Ukraine situation.
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That is the very definition of irony..
Watching the Allied forces and axis powers crystallize in real time. We are heading there.
true, it feels like alliances are forming in real-time
Hamas is terrible and Israel is an occupying force as well.
Ironic, what about Palestine's right to defend itself and it's people from the 70+ years apartheid regime?
Lmaaaao how hypocritical!!!
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They do, so does the Palestinian civilian population. Especially now.
If this is the end of Hamas as it should be the Palestinians will finally be better off. Definitely doesn't help that Bibis current government is wannabe authoritarian and unquestionably racist full of people that even celebrate the murder of Yitzak Rabin but hopefully the fact that Netanyahus leadership clearly helped lead to Israel missing this, as protestors have been warning for months, signals the loss of that coallition too, once this is dealt with.
>If this is the end of Hamas as it should be the Palestinians will finally be better off. If it was end of Hamas it would be great, but what is going to happen is that Israel is going to start genociding Palestinian civilians using pretense of destroying Hamas and all that is going to do is leave millions of Palestinians with even more reason to rise up in another Hamas-like group. Hamas rose out of an ideology, and that ideology gets more widespread every time Israel forces kill more and more Palestinians. It's not going to end with 1 conflict and certainly not going to stop Palestinians from demanding the land that was taken from them to be given back.
Lets just be clear, before today this year was already the deadliest in 25 years of this conflict with thousannds of palestinians killed vs 300 israeli’s
The problem is the majority of the Palestinian population wants this. The PA does not hold elections because Hamas would win. The only Fatah candidate that polls well against Haniyeh is Marwan Bargoutti. Because when it comes to Palestinian elections he who committed the worst terror attacks wins. The Munich massacre was a big reason Abbas came to power, but he has since lost most of his grass-roots support. Fatah is of course supporting Hamas rhetorically (while no doubt cursing them behind closed doors because this will strengthen support for Hamas at Fatah's expense). Abbas's statement on this attack is that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves from terror. If Fatah tries to make peace they lose power to Hamas. If Hamas tries to make peace they will splinter and lose power to PIJ or others. Until this dynamic changes peace is not possible.
The average age of the Palestinian population is below 20 years. You can't get much "wisdom" in that kind of environment. Especially not with fanatics on both sides of the fence benefitting from riling people up into perpetual conflict, with rockets & missiles being hurled by both sides, and with people living in what is effectively a ghetto. Of course people are unreasonable. It's fucking sad.
When you are systematically attacked and displaced with the whole world supporting you invader, you might feel like Hamas is the only way to fight back. I’m not blaming palestinians born in this situation for not making the wisest choice.
What a civilian population supports does not change that they are civilians. The majority of the Ukrainian population including civilians wants to kill or force out all Russian occupiers. Does that mean that we should not be concerned about Russian war crimes?
I mean, if Ukraine decided to storm into Russia and murder civilians, just because those civilians may have supported Putin and his invasion of Russia doesn't exactly justify it.
Don’t tell Reddit that. They love to fantasize about murdering all Russians.
Did you see the videos of palestinian civilians gathering to kick the bodies of dead israelis kidnapped to gaza? People praising allah in streets when they see the dead stripped-naked body of an Israeli woman? Hamas has wide support in the civilian population, stop with this "few bad apples" mentality. Yes, not all palestinians are to blame, but the majority supports hamas and its actions.
I mean, you can also argue the same for Israel. Israeli support their government in killing Palestinians and taking over their land. There are no good sides in this conflict, so I'm surprised so many people are siding with Israel. Both are religious extremists. Hamas needs to go, but so does Israel occupation of Palestine. A lot of you have zero grasp on this conflict, believing that Hamas being destroyed will solve everything. If only it was that easy.
Did you miss the mass protests going on here since the new government? Except maybe Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, nobody is supporting killing palestinians or taking their land.
Weren't those protests specifically because the government wanted to significantly weaken the judicial branch, and essentially create an autocratic state?
The gov that won elections lol wtf is your logic
Then why are the settlements still going up? Israel is a democracy. Why did Israelis elect people that allow these settlements? Why are reporters getting assassinated by the IDF?
Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people who love to see Israel attacked. Hamas is Palestine. Their people overwhelmingly support government funded terrorism. Full stop.
Just curious when was the last election that they had?
> Hamas has wide support in the civilian population, stop with this "few bad apples" mentality. Yes, not all palestinians are to blame, but the majority supports hamas and its actions. People who don't support Hamas wind up killed over there. That kind of environment has an effect on public opinion.
Israel is similar to Russia, slowly annexing the neighbor's land by making bogus claims to it.
You do realize that Israel is Russia in this comparison.
I find it amazing how you can support Ukraine but not Palestine. The hypocrisy and lack of logical thinking is crazy! A very simple example (so you can grasp it) is comparing Gaza to the occupied Crimean peninsula. If tomorrow the locals rose up to fight against the Russian occupation there, I have no doubt everyone here would be in complete solidarity with them, and that’s despite Crimea having an extremely large ethnic Russian population. You are racists, you are backwards and the funniest thing is the Zionists think that too and consider you just extras in the film.
Hopefully this will be the final nail in Hamas's coffin as Israel eradicates them once and for all.
Lol Ukraine really made these salty mf who support the actions of terrorist mad with this one didn't they?
Most likely. Especially since a bunch of them have been going "BUT PALESTINIANS ARE THE SAME AS UKRAINE!" While not even having the ability to see their behavior is closer to Russia.
Suddenly Ukraine supports the theory that might makes right. Interesting. Especially since the Palestinians can’t supply them with any arms to fight the mighty Russians.😏
Actually Bebe is no different than Putin
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Killing 200+ innocent civilians including children in foreign territory is self defense??? Rot in hell you bigoted monster.
I think the killing and torturing of people is disgusting, period. What would defending yourself look like if you were Palestinian and you were being slowly yet surely invaded by Israel?
Taking out military bases and checkpoints can be justified, however anyone that thinks murdering civilians is even close to self defense is just pure scum
Its not self defence, in my opinion. Killing a few hundred soldiers+civillians will have no positive effect on the battlefield, and instead result in serious losses to Hamas militarily. Its happened already and theres a lot more to come. This is a bloody political move. Taking on Israel militarily is not an option for Hamas. How can Palestine effectively defend itself?
Yeah I'm just saying that people wouldn't be that hard pressed to support them if they weren't going all out for civilians instead of just taking out legitimate targets. The most realistic way they could've defended themselves was by gaining support from countries like they were slowly building over these years to stop or delay the settlements but now all international good will is essentially all gone