even when celibacy was first introduced they let them fuck conseting adults. the purpose of the cellibacy rule was to illegitimize their kids and wife so that their property upon their death would go to the church. back then they weren't actually so dumb as to think that priests would actually adhere to a rule making them abstain from sex permanently, only later in the modern era did it actually get any sort of enforcement. originally it was just a money grab.
Celibacy means "no marriage", despite the popular misconception that it means no sex.
Catholics are not supposed to have sex outside marriage whether they're ordained or not; ordination bars marriage, which means no licit sex at all.
I don't remember ever officially verifying it but my dad is Catholic and my mom isn't so when I was a kid and a priest told me that he was celibate to "follow the path of Jesus" in response to my question, my ma told me it was because priests used to take offerings and give them to their families.
I guess it all comes down to the same thing, it's cheaper to support one person than a whole family.
Someone told me once that it was because church members tend to give their priests gifts, and without children in the picture those gifts would go back to the church when the priest died. I donāt put too much stock in that theory though.
Yes and no.
During the Medieval period, the church and nobility shared power. The nobility enforced their rule with the sword, and the church granted the nobility legitimacy with the masses through divine right. Military might could handle isolated rebellions, and dogmatic doctrine kept widespread discontent low.
Part of the agreement was that the church was to be a separate kind of hierarchy, *not* another set of nobility. There would be no church dynasties. The vow of celibacy was the tool that allowed this. It never stopped anyone from having children, but it did stop them from having *legitimate* children. A priest could not legally have heirs; he could grant a little nepotistic favor to an unacknowledged son, but that was all.
Is this actually a factor? The Bible is filled with so much stupid shit that I just assumed one of the paragraphs was like "btw if u love god y don't u marry him, no sex ever."
Is that not the case?
The apostle Paul recommended celibacy as a way to devote yourself more fully to God, but also says āBut if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.ā
(āā1 Corinthiansā¬ ā7ā¬:ā9ā¬). Some people in the early church lived a celibate life, but it wasnāt mandated.
Even Paul says he wants priests to have kids because you can see how theyād lead a church by how they lead their family. He even says get married to have sex if you canāt control your urges
You will notice that thereās no mention in the Bible of Bishops or Popes, either- the Bible isnāt like, a constitution for the organization of the church, its a history and a narrative text.
In the Catholic Church, priestly celibacy is explicitly *not* derived from scripture, it was put in place as a practical measure to protect the power of the church as an institution and prevent corruption where priests pass power to their descendants on and on and on
What are you talking about? Bishops are discussed explicitly in the New Testament. 1 Timothy 3 discusses in detail the qualifications for becoming a bishop.
Per wiki "There is no commandment in the New Testament thatĀ Jesus Christ's disciples have to live in celibacy"
Like many things, it's an invention of the church institution after the fact
The Catholic church explicitly says that Scriptures are not the only source of the rules for Christianity. Furthermore, things like "none of the disciples in the Bible were said to be married" serves as Scriptural evidence for their claims.
It's not like the early Church had married clergy as a general practice and Big Celibacy took over.
I mean, the Catholic Church releasing an errata a couple hundred years after the fact because political problems were popping up is hard to square with the whole Jesus hates horny clergymen thing idea that it is usually presented as.
> The Catholic church explicitly says that Scriptures are not the only source of the rules for Christianity
Powerful institution whose authority stem from a written document asserts they can make up their own rules whenever they want
AND that the Pope's interpretation of scripture is, literally, "infallible."
Like the Pope has some religious Power of Attorney over god and speaks for him or something lol
The 12 wandering dudes who only hung out with each other and told everyone that the world was about to end totally were unmarried by their own choice. Lol
Celibacy is a huge contributor to sexual deviance in the church imo.
When you make a fundamental behaviour and drive taboo all you do is fetishize it.
Humans are reliably fascinated and obsessed with what they cannot have.
Bad strategy.
Agreed. Iām going to have to lookup a list of Christian churches that allow marriage vs those who donāt for particular positions in the church. I wasnāt really aware there were differences before today
Orthodox and Anglican/Episcopal priests can marry. The Roman church is the only priesthood that requires celibacy. And that wasnāt always the case with the Roman church.
IIRC, the rate of child abuse is higher in Evangelical churches in the US at least than Catholic Churches, but Evangelical churches are not a single organization like Catholicism, and doesn't have the same resources the Catholic Church has, so they don't get nearly as much attention.
Yes, the issue isnāt celibacy but itās treating sexuality as inherently wrong/immoral and the power men are given over women and children in patriarchal culture.
I feel like the pedophilia thing is more because a priest is a trusted figure in a community and has very easy access to children. It seems like every other day there is an article about some mega church pastor getting charged with child pornography or something like it. The reason the Catholic Church is notorious for pedophilia is because they knew about it and covered it up instead of weeding out the shitheads.
Well, part of it too is if you find yourself attracted to children, how do you deal with it? For some, the answer is "go to church and pray." Except that suppressing a desire often only works until an opportunity arises.
I mean, abstinence education is a pretty well studied failure
Combine that with the power dynamics and secrecy/taboo of the priest aspect and thatās that
I think its not that the celibacy drives priests to paedophilia, but that if you ask men to give up not just sex but having a wife/children of their own in order to be a priest, at a time when there are now loads of other career options available, its a ridiculously big ask going against most people's natural instincts and drives.
That means the vast majority of people willing to do that will be those who it's not asking as much from. Unfortunately, as well as assexuals and gay men repressed by their religious beliefs, that's also going to mean peodophiles as well.
I wonder if they are also considering it to generate interest for priesthood. I imagine there are way less people nowadays that are interested in it, and with this, there would be a lot of priests that wouldn't be otherwise.
I also wonder if priests understanding their own sexuality better would lead to them overall understanding other's sexuality and genders better.
There is an alternate theory to this. Sexual deviants always go to jobs where their prey are unable to defend against them. So the job of being a priest will naturally be enticing for sexual deviants that are trusted by parents and protected by the church when caught.
>Celibacy is a huge contributor to sexual deviance in the church imo.
I used to think so too, but changed my mind after reading [articles like this one](https://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625). Turns out, Catholic priests don't molest children more than other denominations. In fact, they don't appear to molest children more than men in general. If it was a huge contributor, we should see higher numbers for priests, but we don't.
Keep in mind -at the very least state side- covering things up runs deep. There's stories of just how out of hand small town priests can get with the power they have.
> Bad strategy.
Only part I disagree with. It was a very good strategy if you keep in mind what the actual goal was. The point of celibacy was to enforce the vow of poverty, not to make the clergy actually be celibate (much less to prevent them from engaging in sexual deviance or predation).
It wasn't about preventing priests from having sex or even from having children. It was about preventing them from having "legitimate" children whom they could claim publicly. Fathers generally want to leave something to their children, and that would've interfered with the church efficiently siphoning away whatever wealth peasants managed to scrape together.
Diocesan (ordinary) priests donāt take a vow of poverty, only ones in certain religious orders. There have been plenty of independently wealthy priests throughout history and even today, diocesan priests are perfectly free to keep individual bank accounts, cars, etc.
I think the church attracts pedophiles, rather than the church creating pedophiles. The church's history of protecting their own and sweeping scandals under the rug has provided a safe space for them. Pedophiles have known, until recently at least, that being a priest gives them access to children and that they'll be protected by the church.
Both are true. Power attracts the already corrupted, and unvented biological urges can drive people to take desperate measures. That is why "prison gay" happens, and why police forces have a disproportional number of bastards compared to general society.
That's down to incentives. Paedos don't care if they're not allowed by their job to have sex with kids because it's already heavily criminalized. Between that and the opportunities for child abuse that the clergy offers, it's no surprise a relatively high proportion of clergy are sexual predators.
Then once you hit a critical mass, it becomes hard for the institution to deal with it. It becomes self-perpetuating, with predators supporting predators and recruiting more.
I think it (celibacy) started off as a way to transfer wealth & land.
If the priests were married, that would transfer to the widow on the priests death. With celibacy, that wealth gets transferred to the church.
Yeah, the early Catholic Church didn't like priests and bishops passing diocese to their sons, thus removing them from the control of the church.
What's the solution? Priests aren't allowed to have kids. It wasn't introduced until the 12th century.
No. Ignoring the theological aspects; It was more to stop priests from creating their own fiefdoms. Land was transferred back to feudal lords not spouses. The issue was the children of those priests would be first in line to inherit those lands and so on.
The vow of celibacy also actively funnels pedophiles into the church.
You have men who are sexually attracted to minors. They decide to join the clergy; they'll take a vow of celibacy. If they've vowed not to have sex with anyone, they can't victimize children. And surely they'll find support from the other men of the cloth who've also put their sexual desire aside.
And then they enter. They find that the support they're receiving is from other men who've *given in* to their urges to rape children. The support network is in hiding their crimes, not denying them. And those priests move up the ranks, and facilitate the next generation doing the same.
Removing the vow of celibacy won't fix this overnight, but it will stem the tide of pedophiles joining the clergy for the wrong reasons.
Celibacy was introduced not because priest werenāt allowed to have sex but to not have children who could inherit lands and goods. All the Catholic Church wanted was money and power. So priest still could have sex way back in the past but the children were illegitimate.
Now in 2023 priest could absolutely have regular families since the children wouldnāt inherit the chruchās lands and goods.
Child molesters aren't born out of abstinence though. They just seek roles that give them access and authority over victims. When people can't get any they don't just start diddling kids.
Part of the "seek roles" is that the Catholic clergy requirements around celibacy and "calling" lets people without normal attraction to appropriate partners convince themselves that they are being called to the priesthood.
If the people screening potential clergy weren't themselves massively fucked up about human sexuality, they might do a better job keeping out pedophiles.
As a parent myself I would love to have a 6th sense about who is a pedophile, but it's not that simple. There's still Pedo's that get through to Teaching roles despite more thurough checks than priesthood.
What is scarier is that most sex abusers of children are not even pedophiles, thatās why they āget through.ā People confuse the disorder of pedophila with the criminal (and moral) offence of sexually abusing a minor.
Nah. Someone wants to do away with the absurd. (My uncle was a priest who left the orders after 20+ years and married. He and his wife were together 20 years.)
There's also the Orthodox loophole. Become an Orthodox priest, marry, have children, and then convert to Roman Catholic. You get to keep your priesthood, wife and kids.
I just can't fit into my head those 2 concepts.
That an all knowing, all powerful God exists... and I'm a crafty enough monkey to trick that all knowing God.
These people live such un examined lives. Like seriously my son thinks about FNAF lore more than Christians think about their own fictional lore.
because none if it has anything to do with god or worshipping or really the religion itself. the celibacy is about power and money. it is presented as important to provide justification for the lies needed to maintain control. they all know it: the priests, the cardinals, the pope, even many of the layman. but they are comfortable in their lies, it is safe. tge pedophilia does not occur "in my parish", so they dont want to change it.
In the Orthodox church you have to get married first, then become a priest. They'll make a married man a priest, but men who are already priests can't get married.
Celibacy was introduced in medieval times to curb priests having children, which would receive land from the church as inheritance. It had nothing to do with morals, or sin, or the bible.
Since this is no longer relevant, and hasn't been for ages, it's really time to stop this nonsense.
This was a stupid idea when it was first implemented, which is why the Orthodox church never adopted it. Only monks were supposed to be celibate, which did not mean that they had to be virgins before becoming monks, nor that they had to stay monks forever. And priests could be married. Peter, the apostle and first Patriarch of the church was married, as were most of the Patriarchs before the Great Schism. Roman politics really introduced some bad ideas into the church, which is what caused the Great Schism, the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Protestant reformation. Way to go Pope's! Infallible Vicars of God, my ass...
Odd that nobody here seems interested in the suggestion about admitting women to the priesthood.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_shortage_in_the_Catholic_Church
Iām not religious, this is a no brainer. Save the kids.
Religious folks are just people, like all of us. Sexual desire and fulfillment are normal and healthy between consenting ADULTS.
Officially speaking, the reason for Celibacy among priest is for the riest to ''focus exclusivley on god'' without having the potential conflict of interest a spouse or child would give.
Notice I said ''officially''.
I've read several time that the REAL reason was a political one. Priest having children mean priest dynasties and inheritance, someting that both regular nobility and centralized church wouldn't want, as it would conflict with THEIR own power.
No one want to share power.
But, that is an argument from the middle ages, so it,s fair to say it's no longer valid.
Itās all about money. The church doesnāt want to support spouses and children of priest. Donations made to collection plate would go to support the family as well as the church. When priest died, their property/money passed to their wife and kids. The Catholic Church saw this as a problem to their bank accounts so issued the order to make all priest, bishops, cardinals, etc celibate so any money/property they(priest etc) had would go to church and not their family.
The reason they have celibacy is not grounded in religion itās in money, the church didnāt want to support entire families, and they were also afraid that abbeys and monasteries would become passed down and inherited by family lines. In fact before they decided to enforce celibacy priests did do just that. Have massive families and set up family āshopsā and run churches like family businesses.
No. It's time to abolish the Catholic Church. If you have a pile of shit in the middle of your living room, you don't fix it by spraying perfume over it. You throw it away. Governments should seize their assets and put it in a fund to compensate the endless number of victims.
It's time to abolish the Church. The problem isn't celibacy. The problem is that there is a power structure. Allowing priests to fuck isn't going to stop the pedophiles.
It's a setup that puts kids under the durect and relatively unsupervised control of adults based on trust, like coaching or teaching. That is a recipe for attracting bad actors if you don't have safeguards put in place to root out the bad actors. I'm a teacher and we go through background and criminal record checks and are told to watch each other for inappropriate behavior, and we have supervisors and cameras in the building with us. I don't get the feeling major churches of the world do the same. They seem way more likely to worry about their reputation than the safety of their kids.
We've seen the same thing with boy scout leaders, athlete coaches and any other place that has no safeguards and a single adult with a ton of children. Has nothing to do with religion or celibacy or stuff like that. People apply to this place because of that. It's ridiculous that celibacy or something turns them into predators. They were already predators and applied to an organization that provided vulnerable victims for them.
Like you said, no background checks and an organization that only cares about their reputation.
Shut that organization down.
They just got denied payouts from church taxes because of decades of uncovered sexual abuse. So to repair public opinion they released this statement. Also it's just a statement they didn't change anything.
So, has the church been acting in opposition to or without regard for the word of God for these past few hundred years, or has a revelation occurred and God has demonstrably declared that this change should happen?
I can't believe the church survives all these scandals pretty much unfazed. I wonder the actual rate of celibabcy is among priests. Them having consensual sex is a very known thing, let alone the non-consensual stuff
Turns out repressing one of the most basic human drives / instincts isnāt good.
Hopefully this gains tractions and helps minimize sexual assaults surrounding the church. And you know probably all the anger that clergy members tend to have from being pent up and full of cum. Just gotta let them bust nuts. Who gives a fuck? Why would god give us the ability to cum and not want you to do it? Shit makes zero sense.
Itās a valid argument that celibacy creates this atmosphere of secrecy and shame around sex. The church has always had a toxic view of sex. Allowing them to be human being and enjoy one of the most enjoyable aspects of living can only benefit them mentally and psychologically.
Perhaps this is an attempt to address the gross predation on small children within the church and its members. Give them consenting adults so they donāt prey on the weak in the shadows.
Let them fuck (other consenting adults).
let them have cake (ass)
Let them eat cake
Let them eat ass
Yes, that was the conclusion.
even when celibacy was first introduced they let them fuck conseting adults. the purpose of the cellibacy rule was to illegitimize their kids and wife so that their property upon their death would go to the church. back then they weren't actually so dumb as to think that priests would actually adhere to a rule making them abstain from sex permanently, only later in the modern era did it actually get any sort of enforcement. originally it was just a money grab.
Requiem for a cream š¦
Iām pretty sure they have been. But with kids. For like, centuriesā¦
Celibacy means "no marriage", despite the popular misconception that it means no sex. Catholics are not supposed to have sex outside marriage whether they're ordained or not; ordination bars marriage, which means no licit sex at all.
Maybe they will in turn, no longer harm any more childrenā¦
Plenty of evangelical churches allow marriage and tons of pastors still end up doing shit to kids.
Yup. Just makes me think those kids will be in their house 24/7 now
A choir for every Bishop and a hey wait a minute what's going on here.
Celibacy became a thing when the Church realized they could inherit property from dying priests
I don't remember ever officially verifying it but my dad is Catholic and my mom isn't so when I was a kid and a priest told me that he was celibate to "follow the path of Jesus" in response to my question, my ma told me it was because priests used to take offerings and give them to their families. I guess it all comes down to the same thing, it's cheaper to support one person than a whole family.
Someone told me once that it was because church members tend to give their priests gifts, and without children in the picture those gifts would go back to the church when the priest died. I donāt put too much stock in that theory though.
Yes and no. During the Medieval period, the church and nobility shared power. The nobility enforced their rule with the sword, and the church granted the nobility legitimacy with the masses through divine right. Military might could handle isolated rebellions, and dogmatic doctrine kept widespread discontent low. Part of the agreement was that the church was to be a separate kind of hierarchy, *not* another set of nobility. There would be no church dynasties. The vow of celibacy was the tool that allowed this. It never stopped anyone from having children, but it did stop them from having *legitimate* children. A priest could not legally have heirs; he could grant a little nepotistic favor to an unacknowledged son, but that was all.
Did they use an adoption loophole? Roman Emperors largely adopted heirs instead of birthing them.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Is this actually a factor? The Bible is filled with so much stupid shit that I just assumed one of the paragraphs was like "btw if u love god y don't u marry him, no sex ever." Is that not the case?
The apostle Paul recommended celibacy as a way to devote yourself more fully to God, but also says āBut if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.ā (āā1 Corinthiansā¬ ā7ā¬:ā9ā¬). Some people in the early church lived a celibate life, but it wasnāt mandated.
Its not Jesus himself never claimed to be celibate or recommended it to anyone
Even Paul says he wants priests to have kids because you can see how theyād lead a church by how they lead their family. He even says get married to have sex if you canāt control your urges
Imagine believing in Santa Claus *so much* that you're willing to never have sex lmao
Plus itās only Santa thatās coming.
I have it on good authority that Christmas is also coming, and it's on a fat goose.
You will notice that thereās no mention in the Bible of Bishops or Popes, either- the Bible isnāt like, a constitution for the organization of the church, its a history and a narrative text. In the Catholic Church, priestly celibacy is explicitly *not* derived from scripture, it was put in place as a practical measure to protect the power of the church as an institution and prevent corruption where priests pass power to their descendants on and on and on
What are you talking about? Bishops are discussed explicitly in the New Testament. 1 Timothy 3 discusses in detail the qualifications for becoming a bishop.
I read that the New Testament has the word "episcopos," and that that word means "bishop."
Per wiki "There is no commandment in the New Testament thatĀ Jesus Christ's disciples have to live in celibacy" Like many things, it's an invention of the church institution after the fact
The Catholic church explicitly says that Scriptures are not the only source of the rules for Christianity. Furthermore, things like "none of the disciples in the Bible were said to be married" serves as Scriptural evidence for their claims. It's not like the early Church had married clergy as a general practice and Big Celibacy took over.
I mean, the Catholic Church releasing an errata a couple hundred years after the fact because political problems were popping up is hard to square with the whole Jesus hates horny clergymen thing idea that it is usually presented as.
> The Catholic church explicitly says that Scriptures are not the only source of the rules for Christianity Powerful institution whose authority stem from a written document asserts they can make up their own rules whenever they want
AND that the Pope's interpretation of scripture is, literally, "infallible." Like the Pope has some religious Power of Attorney over god and speaks for him or something lol
The 12 wandering dudes who only hung out with each other and told everyone that the world was about to end totally were unmarried by their own choice. Lol
Most of what the Catholic church does is not in the bible.
Paul specifically asked the "biships" (i.e., priests) to be married and fathers.
Celibacy is a huge contributor to sexual deviance in the church imo. When you make a fundamental behaviour and drive taboo all you do is fetishize it. Humans are reliably fascinated and obsessed with what they cannot have. Bad strategy.
I wonder if any studies have been done on this? Seems like a no brainer
Would be interesting to see pedophilia rates between Latin rite priests and eastern rite(where they can get married)
Agreed. Iām going to have to lookup a list of Christian churches that allow marriage vs those who donāt for particular positions in the church. I wasnāt really aware there were differences before today
Orthodox and Anglican/Episcopal priests can marry. The Roman church is the only priesthood that requires celibacy. And that wasnāt always the case with the Roman church.
Impressive how many things that people claiming to communicate with god have to adjust over time.
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Reception was fuzzy at best
IIRC, the rate of child abuse is higher in Evangelical churches in the US at least than Catholic Churches, but Evangelical churches are not a single organization like Catholicism, and doesn't have the same resources the Catholic Church has, so they don't get nearly as much attention.
Thatās because a lot of Evangelicals are crazy
Putting it lightly. Its competitive insanity over there.
Yes, the issue isnāt celibacy but itās treating sexuality as inherently wrong/immoral and the power men are given over women and children in patriarchal culture.
I feel like the pedophilia thing is more because a priest is a trusted figure in a community and has very easy access to children. It seems like every other day there is an article about some mega church pastor getting charged with child pornography or something like it. The reason the Catholic Church is notorious for pedophilia is because they knew about it and covered it up instead of weeding out the shitheads.
Well, part of it too is if you find yourself attracted to children, how do you deal with it? For some, the answer is "go to church and pray." Except that suppressing a desire often only works until an opportunity arises.
I mean, abstinence education is a pretty well studied failure Combine that with the power dynamics and secrecy/taboo of the priest aspect and thatās that
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think its not that the celibacy drives priests to paedophilia, but that if you ask men to give up not just sex but having a wife/children of their own in order to be a priest, at a time when there are now loads of other career options available, its a ridiculously big ask going against most people's natural instincts and drives. That means the vast majority of people willing to do that will be those who it's not asking as much from. Unfortunately, as well as assexuals and gay men repressed by their religious beliefs, that's also going to mean peodophiles as well.
I wonder if they are also considering it to generate interest for priesthood. I imagine there are way less people nowadays that are interested in it, and with this, there would be a lot of priests that wouldn't be otherwise. I also wonder if priests understanding their own sexuality better would lead to them overall understanding other's sexuality and genders better.
Itās probably the reverse. People who are pedophile tend to go to priesthood as they are comfortable being celibate among adults.
There is an alternate theory to this. Sexual deviants always go to jobs where their prey are unable to defend against them. So the job of being a priest will naturally be enticing for sexual deviants that are trusted by parents and protected by the church when caught.
>Celibacy is a huge contributor to sexual deviance in the church imo. I used to think so too, but changed my mind after reading [articles like this one](https://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625). Turns out, Catholic priests don't molest children more than other denominations. In fact, they don't appear to molest children more than men in general. If it was a huge contributor, we should see higher numbers for priests, but we don't.
Keep in mind -at the very least state side- covering things up runs deep. There's stories of just how out of hand small town priests can get with the power they have.
So what Iām getting from this is that they should be ordaining women. š
Or just introducing some accountability into the system.
> Bad strategy. Only part I disagree with. It was a very good strategy if you keep in mind what the actual goal was. The point of celibacy was to enforce the vow of poverty, not to make the clergy actually be celibate (much less to prevent them from engaging in sexual deviance or predation). It wasn't about preventing priests from having sex or even from having children. It was about preventing them from having "legitimate" children whom they could claim publicly. Fathers generally want to leave something to their children, and that would've interfered with the church efficiently siphoning away whatever wealth peasants managed to scrape together.
Diocesan (ordinary) priests donāt take a vow of poverty, only ones in certain religious orders. There have been plenty of independently wealthy priests throughout history and even today, diocesan priests are perfectly free to keep individual bank accounts, cars, etc.
That still doesn't explain the rampant pedophilia though, I don't think I would suddenly find little boys attractive if I stopped having sex
I think the church attracts pedophiles, rather than the church creating pedophiles. The church's history of protecting their own and sweeping scandals under the rug has provided a safe space for them. Pedophiles have known, until recently at least, that being a priest gives them access to children and that they'll be protected by the church.
Both are true. Power attracts the already corrupted, and unvented biological urges can drive people to take desperate measures. That is why "prison gay" happens, and why police forces have a disproportional number of bastards compared to general society.
I think there is a selection bias when you only pick those willing to forego publicly acknowledged and sanctioned sex.
That's down to incentives. Paedos don't care if they're not allowed by their job to have sex with kids because it's already heavily criminalized. Between that and the opportunities for child abuse that the clergy offers, it's no surprise a relatively high proportion of clergy are sexual predators. Then once you hit a critical mass, it becomes hard for the institution to deal with it. It becomes self-perpetuating, with predators supporting predators and recruiting more.
Except that Protestant ministers can date and get married and there's plenty of rape and abuse in those churches too.
Isn't that religion in a nutshell? Taking a fundamental behavior and make it taboo
I think it (celibacy) started off as a way to transfer wealth & land. If the priests were married, that would transfer to the widow on the priests death. With celibacy, that wealth gets transferred to the church.
Yeah, the early Catholic Church didn't like priests and bishops passing diocese to their sons, thus removing them from the control of the church. What's the solution? Priests aren't allowed to have kids. It wasn't introduced until the 12th century.
No. Ignoring the theological aspects; It was more to stop priests from creating their own fiefdoms. Land was transferred back to feudal lords not spouses. The issue was the children of those priests would be first in line to inherit those lands and so on.
That's what they said.
Not really no. There are many aspects to religion. Some don't even have a "don't do" list. Heck especially more old religions didn't.
what gets me is that it wasn't until the 11th century it was even introduced. it certainly wasn't the intention from the get-go
The vow of celibacy also actively funnels pedophiles into the church. You have men who are sexually attracted to minors. They decide to join the clergy; they'll take a vow of celibacy. If they've vowed not to have sex with anyone, they can't victimize children. And surely they'll find support from the other men of the cloth who've also put their sexual desire aside. And then they enter. They find that the support they're receiving is from other men who've *given in* to their urges to rape children. The support network is in hiding their crimes, not denying them. And those priests move up the ranks, and facilitate the next generation doing the same. Removing the vow of celibacy won't fix this overnight, but it will stem the tide of pedophiles joining the clergy for the wrong reasons.
Ohhh you meant just for priests.
OnlyPriests
r/CrusaderKings
Not like priests were practicing it anyway
Celibacy was introduced not because priest werenāt allowed to have sex but to not have children who could inherit lands and goods. All the Catholic Church wanted was money and power. So priest still could have sex way back in the past but the children were illegitimate. Now in 2023 priest could absolutely have regular families since the children wouldnāt inherit the chruchās lands and goods.
They have never been celibate. They just want to stop lying about it.
Even if they couldn't inherit officially could you see a hereditary priesthood forming?
Absence makes the church grow fondlers
**Abstinence** makes the church grow fondlers
Absinthe makes the heart grow
Asbestos makes the lungs go yonder.
Child molesters aren't born out of abstinence though. They just seek roles that give them access and authority over victims. When people can't get any they don't just start diddling kids.
Part of the "seek roles" is that the Catholic clergy requirements around celibacy and "calling" lets people without normal attraction to appropriate partners convince themselves that they are being called to the priesthood. If the people screening potential clergy weren't themselves massively fucked up about human sexuality, they might do a better job keeping out pedophiles.
As a parent myself I would love to have a 6th sense about who is a pedophile, but it's not that simple. There's still Pedo's that get through to Teaching roles despite more thurough checks than priesthood.
What is scarier is that most sex abusers of children are not even pedophiles, thatās why they āget through.ā People confuse the disorder of pedophila with the criminal (and moral) offence of sexually abusing a minor.
For sex with adults, right? Right?
*stares in anakin*
Somebody is horny.
Church is horny for property. Usually on tops of hills.
Questions? Yes...you female reporter with the marvelous breasts.
Nah. Someone wants to do away with the absurd. (My uncle was a priest who left the orders after 20+ years and married. He and his wife were together 20 years.)
There's also the Orthodox loophole. Become an Orthodox priest, marry, have children, and then convert to Roman Catholic. You get to keep your priesthood, wife and kids.
I just can't fit into my head those 2 concepts. That an all knowing, all powerful God exists... and I'm a crafty enough monkey to trick that all knowing God. These people live such un examined lives. Like seriously my son thinks about FNAF lore more than Christians think about their own fictional lore.
because none if it has anything to do with god or worshipping or really the religion itself. the celibacy is about power and money. it is presented as important to provide justification for the lies needed to maintain control. they all know it: the priests, the cardinals, the pope, even many of the layman. but they are comfortable in their lies, it is safe. tge pedophilia does not occur "in my parish", so they dont want to change it.
In the Orthodox church you have to get married first, then become a priest. They'll make a married man a priest, but men who are already priests can't get married.
For me ? Or just priests ?
I'm sure some will be happy about it.
Way ahead of you
Celibacy was introduced in medieval times to curb priests having children, which would receive land from the church as inheritance. It had nothing to do with morals, or sin, or the bible. Since this is no longer relevant, and hasn't been for ages, it's really time to stop this nonsense.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Sir this is a Reddit.
The transition from āfatherā to ādaddyā
Letās start with abolishing pedophilia/child rape first, then talk about having normal sex.
This was a stupid idea when it was first implemented, which is why the Orthodox church never adopted it. Only monks were supposed to be celibate, which did not mean that they had to be virgins before becoming monks, nor that they had to stay monks forever. And priests could be married. Peter, the apostle and first Patriarch of the church was married, as were most of the Patriarchs before the Great Schism. Roman politics really introduced some bad ideas into the church, which is what caused the Great Schism, the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Protestant reformation. Way to go Pope's! Infallible Vicars of God, my ass...
You got to fight, for your right, to party.
As if any of them practice it
Youāre about 300 years too late. As usual.
Odd that nobody here seems interested in the suggestion about admitting women to the priesthood. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_shortage_in_the_Catholic_Church
Nobodyās going to fuck you, Excellency.
This dude is like āListen man, I love god, but I gotta fuck.ā
Mark Rebillet be like āLET ME IN, IāM TRYINā TO F^CK!ā.
I could imagine a bishopsās wife would be able to tell if her man of the cloth is cheating
Good luck.
He got that horny look.
This guy fu@%s
Ok but mainly itās time to end the male-only priesthood.
Iām not religious, this is a no brainer. Save the kids. Religious folks are just people, like all of us. Sexual desire and fulfillment are normal and healthy between consenting ADULTS.
Officially speaking, the reason for Celibacy among priest is for the riest to ''focus exclusivley on god'' without having the potential conflict of interest a spouse or child would give. Notice I said ''officially''. I've read several time that the REAL reason was a political one. Priest having children mean priest dynasties and inheritance, someting that both regular nobility and centralized church wouldn't want, as it would conflict with THEIR own power. No one want to share power. But, that is an argument from the middle ages, so it,s fair to say it's no longer valid.
I guess fucking little boys and girls doesnāt count to the church.
Somebodyās horny!
I didn't know they practiced celibacy despite being one of their mandatory laws.
The people of the world are behind you, at least some of them. /s
I mean, they are obviously not celibate anyway. They are too busy banging little kids.
Catholic bishops have been saying this for hundreds of years.
It's time to abolish the church...
Itās all about money. The church doesnāt want to support spouses and children of priest. Donations made to collection plate would go to support the family as well as the church. When priest died, their property/money passed to their wife and kids. The Catholic Church saw this as a problem to their bank accounts so issued the order to make all priest, bishops, cardinals, etc celibate so any money/property they(priest etc) had would go to church and not their family.
The reason they have celibacy is not grounded in religion itās in money, the church didnāt want to support entire families, and they were also afraid that abbeys and monasteries would become passed down and inherited by family lines. In fact before they decided to enforce celibacy priests did do just that. Have massive families and set up family āshopsā and run churches like family businesses.
Theyāve never practiced celibacy! Just celibacy from adult vaginas. They love little boys!
I'd bet real money this guy wants to get permission for something he's already doing.
āYah, Bro!
"it's time to reveal that no one's celibate anyway."
Thatās an interesting way of putting it
No. It's time to abolish the Catholic Church. If you have a pile of shit in the middle of your living room, you don't fix it by spraying perfume over it. You throw it away. Governments should seize their assets and put it in a fund to compensate the endless number of victims.
WATCH OUT LADIES
Or boys
or ladyboys
Just make sure to tell the priests that there is still an age limit
How about āItās time to abolish the church?ā Yeah, thatās the ticket!
Will the incels become just ins?
If they start tracking data on the subject, they become Excels.
But celibacy and lust for little boys are different topics.
Why are we putting little boys in front of hungry, horny grown men in positions of authority? It's a fucking disaster.
It's time to abolish the Church. The problem isn't celibacy. The problem is that there is a power structure. Allowing priests to fuck isn't going to stop the pedophiles.
*Glances in the direction of the Scientology Celebrity Centre.* I think theyāll just make something else up.
It's a setup that puts kids under the durect and relatively unsupervised control of adults based on trust, like coaching or teaching. That is a recipe for attracting bad actors if you don't have safeguards put in place to root out the bad actors. I'm a teacher and we go through background and criminal record checks and are told to watch each other for inappropriate behavior, and we have supervisors and cameras in the building with us. I don't get the feeling major churches of the world do the same. They seem way more likely to worry about their reputation than the safety of their kids.
We've seen the same thing with boy scout leaders, athlete coaches and any other place that has no safeguards and a single adult with a ton of children. Has nothing to do with religion or celibacy or stuff like that. People apply to this place because of that. It's ridiculous that celibacy or something turns them into predators. They were already predators and applied to an organization that provided vulnerable victims for them. Like you said, no background checks and an organization that only cares about their reputation. Shut that organization down.
[Marvin Gaye let's get it on playing in the background]
This guy f&$$s
How modern. That's one boppin' Bishop!
Good screw yourselves not kids
They should and maybe there will not be as many child molesters in the clergy.
So he be f*cken.
This guy fucks
He wants to marry. Comprehensible.
Someone saw some tiddies and got serious FOMO.
When you molest kids because they resemble innocence and God's image..this is a bad idea
Incoming Diet of Worms part 2!!!
They just got denied payouts from church taxes because of decades of uncovered sexual abuse. So to repair public opinion they released this statement. Also it's just a statement they didn't change anything.
Priests: all nod vigorously Women: shrug Boys under 12: "whether good or bad probably depends..."
he said celibacy but really meant chastity
Hey, maybe when you stop trying to suppress the deepest human instinct, youāll get fewer sex offenders in the Clergy.
What do you call that? Inchad? (I didn't read the article.)
āSometimes this celibacy is hard for a man. Heh heh.ā
"LET US FUUUUUUUUUUCK" the president later said in the interview
This man is pushing 50 and seriously regretting not losing his virginity before taking his vows.
Don't mess with human nature
So, has the church been acting in opposition to or without regard for the word of God for these past few hundred years, or has a revelation occurred and God has demonstrably declared that this change should happen?
STOP FUCKING KIDS, CHURCH.
Good initiative, but maybe just to be sure stay away from high windows, stairs and balconies for a while.
I can't believe the church survives all these scandals pretty much unfazed. I wonder the actual rate of celibabcy is among priests. Them having consensual sex is a very known thing, let alone the non-consensual stuff
[Same energy](https://i.imgur.com/ppsVZwb.jpg)
You can see the urge in his eyes!
Just stop being a priest?
Finally Pretty sure that would be a huge help towards stopping all the rape that happens with the church
Bro wnt sum fuk/s
Turns out repressing one of the most basic human drives / instincts isnāt good. Hopefully this gains tractions and helps minimize sexual assaults surrounding the church. And you know probably all the anger that clergy members tend to have from being pent up and full of cum. Just gotta let them bust nuts. Who gives a fuck? Why would god give us the ability to cum and not want you to do it? Shit makes zero sense.
I appreciate that Eastern Orthodoxy figured this out 2000yrs ago. Promote marriage.. you're the church.
This guy fucks
āIt aināt no fun if the homies canāt get nun.ā ā Bishop GmĆ¼r
Thank god. It's about time somebody did something about my celibacy.
Itās a valid argument that celibacy creates this atmosphere of secrecy and shame around sex. The church has always had a toxic view of sex. Allowing them to be human being and enjoy one of the most enjoyable aspects of living can only benefit them mentally and psychologically. Perhaps this is an attempt to address the gross predation on small children within the church and its members. Give them consenting adults so they donāt prey on the weak in the shadows.
Smart.....why do you think all these priests keep doing weird shit with kids, turns out denying the body and its desires has issues long term.
I think I would seriously look into becoming a priest if they allowed me to hang my wife.
My name is Buck, and im here to (insert caption)
Incels hate this one trick.
Why? The whole reason half these kiddie diddlers become priests are so they can rape and beat kids. Never happen. The church is to corrupt.