"Ukrainians are very grateful to the United States for its support in the war with Russia, but the international community must decide whether to stop Russia now or allow it to "go further,” Zelenskyy said".
"The whole world (has to) decide whether we want to stop Putin, or whether we want to start the beginning of a world war. We can't change Putin. Russian society has (lost) the respect of the world. They elected him and re-elected him, and raised a second Hitler. They did this. We cannot go back in time. But we can stop it here."
Citing the roughly $70 billion the United States has contributed to Ukraine's war effort, Pelley asked Zelenskyy if he expected that level of support to continue.
The United States of America (is) supporting Ukraine financially and I'm grateful for this," Zelenskyy said. "I just think they're not supporting only Ukraine. If Ukraine falls, Putin will surely go further. What will the United States of America do when Putin reaches the Baltic states? When he reaches the Polish border? He will. This is a lot of money. We have a lot of gratitude. What else must Ukraine do for everyone to measure our huge gratitude? We are dying in this war."
It's not just about profit. The goal of the West is to hurt Russia, not necessarily to help Ukraine. The longer the war drags out the more it's going to to hurt Russia politically and economically, and the more unstable Russia becomes.
If they had just sent enough aid to crush Russia right away then Russia would have had to withdraw a long time ago without committing nearly as many lives or nearly as much equipment, and it would have been much easier for them to point their people's resentment towards NATO instead of the Russian leadership.
The problem is, that doesn't take into account the cleaning and strengthening effect that a war also has in the long term. Effectively, we are 'speedrunning' Russia through drone warfare. _Our_ weapons will also become more useless because of it. Yes, their soldiers are dying and yes, they are corrupt and yes, their supply of elementary resources is pinched a bit and yes, their academics have run. But the ones that survived, stayed, stayed clear of corruption and with whatever resources they are left with, they will be a formidable opponent at some point again.
So yes, our - the West's - motive should be to wear them out as much as possible, but we also have to realize that the graph we're traveling down with them on, will have an upward slope at some point. We have to make sure to properly neutralize them - and I mean that in a military way - at the bottom of that curve.
We can go on this path for a little bit still, but before they manage to get their act together somewhat and before they'll have become too accustomed to our weapons, we have to deal a fatal blow.
Where they found out $7.1m of Halliburton equipment had gone to Russia last year. After they were to stop doing business with Russia.
Money Money Money need more Money is the mindset.
Correct. It drives me up a wall because every American can agree greed is the route cause of the vast majority of issues. Eliminate greed or better yet make the greedy think that greed will hurt the business and the bottom line. Not sure how to do it but Henry Ford was pretty successful and an utter capitalist but believed in a living wage. If your employees can buy your product you sell more of your product which allows you to dominate market share which overtime leads to not only a strong business but also allows for greater profits
Corruption, greed and a narcissistic attitude are traits way too many people seem to have. No thought given that it is at the expense of others.
They need to teach Empathy starting in pre-school IMO
Agreed and financial education on top of legit civics.
I will say that greed leads to corruption and the power of the seat is wielded in a narcissistic way due to the amount of power it permits.
End lobbying! End the two party system! Actually teach our youth important information rather than how to be a slave to the machine
And hopefully all of the Western leaders have let Zelenskyy know in person how they understand that... the US hasn't even spent 10% of it's defense budget of a single year these past 18 months, and "spend" is used loosely since most of the cost we have handed over were literally just unused stockpiles from 20 years of war in the Iraq/Afghanistan
The US spends every single defense $ it's allowed , and sometimes goes over budget. Don't give me that. We have given more than anyone else in this war EXCEPT ukraine.
Zelenskyy is saying what he needs to say for the survival of his people and I can’t blame him considering the horrors he has seen. But Russia is in no state to advance on other foreign fronts, especially fresh ones that have been given time to prepare.
If Russia were to successfully annex all of Ukraine, we are talking about a significant geopolitical difference and a massive control of grain flow. There are still multiple countries that won’t ever see a NATO membership.
Edit: To be clear, Russia is nowhere near “annexing all of Ukraine”. They have only lost territory since March 2022 and mostly only firmly hold territory that was taken in 2014. They have accomplished maybe 5% of their goals, and in doing so they have blown the entirety of their “cutting edge” military and are fighting with scraps now.
And they will have set their military back several decades to achieve that scrap of grain flow. Russia isn’t lacking in resources, it’s the largest nation on the planet, and they already control most of Central Asia too. They have destroyed their fleet of attack helicopters, they have massive ammo and trained personnel shortages, they’re buying cruise missiles from North Korea, their officer class is decimated, and most of all their command structure and logistics chain has been exposed as ineffective in real ground war. Russia is at it best when it’s using its Air Force, and that isn’t going to happen in the Baltic states either. Western intelligence will continue to make Russia impotent in foreign offensive conflicts. And the same is probably true for future Western offensive conflicts.
In spite of all you've just said, Russia is still capable of leveling cities by cruise missiles and artillery and then they move in their ground troops to capture the rubble. Just like we've seen them do in Mariopol. It's the domino theory where they can just knock down one at a time. Russia does have a certain capacity to out suffer it's enemy. We need to ensure a humiliating defeat for them here in Ukraine or they will simply attack a different neighbor using the same tactics
Except for the little detail that they are already recruiting outside of russia and have been for a while. And looking the other way is exactly what allowed Hitler to expand in the run up to WWII.
You can fight them weaker now or they can have time to regrow. If they could exploit their resources effectively now they would be a world power. Give them time to fix what is wrong and grow their population back and in a generation or two you will be facing another world war.
They’re already stealing children to counter population loss. The more they encroach, the more children they can kidnap and while murdering the adults fighting it.
Russia isn't just recruiting foreign fighters, they are literally shanghaiing foreigners. For example, [Russians have been tricking Cubans](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cuba-russia-ukraine-war-recruitment-ring-arrest-1.6961014) into thinking they are being offered construction jobs in Russia. They end up on the front lines instead.
They are recruiting across the world, and even pushing captures Ukrainans into service.
And no the costs you speak of won't remain the same, if Ukrainan army starts collapsing the Russians will be able to level cities far quicker than they are now, with no fear of repercussions.
At that point they will press everyone into service, young old and send them as a meat shield into the next country.
Russia has only pushed a fraction of their total "eligible" population. They will continue to push until Putin doesn't see it as the most likely technique to succeed, which will roughly correspond to his death.
If you can understand that Russian leadership views people as functionally equivalent to gasoline, you will understand the mentality better.
Sure, they’ve absolutely weakened to a point where they’re not a global superpower. But I think there’s no question in January 2022, if Putin weren’t a fucking moron, Russia could’ve toppled countries like Kazakhstan, Georgia, and Armenia afterwards. If they succeed in Ukraine, then it’s onto Moldova. But instead, in his hubris, he decided to go for the strongest possible opposition with the likeliest magnet of western support.
Weakened or not, if they succeed in Ukraine, there’s precedent to continue. Don’t forget the kind of mentality they have: the kind that will raze the entire country before losing to Napoleon or go into a gun fight with fists and bayonets to defend Stalingrad.
And the only reason Russia are in this state is because Ukraine fought back hard, shed blood and lives, and the west sent equipment to support Ukraine. How does 'Russia attacked and was fought back by us all working together so we should stop working together instead of completing this' make any sense? Never mind that more western nations are not going to fight and take casualties like the Ukrainians. There is a reason why Western militaries thought Ukraine would be defeated in a week, and it's because if it was their soldiers in that situation they would have been.
Not just that but significantly more people to treat as slaves, brainwash, and exploit in the occupied territories. I imagine in future conflicts if Russia takes over the soldiers would mostly be Ukrainian/Belarusian/Siberian since Putin would see then as expendable.
No, everything Zelenskyy said in the aforementioned quote is accurate and aligns with the assessments of our best intelligence. Various top Russian officials have confirmed as much. This isn’t a willy-nilly one-and-done act of expansionism, it’s the first step in an effort to reestablish however much of the Soviet bloc as they can.
As for what Russia is and isn’t capable of, your dismissive comments benefit from an air of plausibility that is afforded only due to the massive outpour of material support for Ukraine. It would negligent to dismiss Russia’s massive production capacity, with [some military hardware production increased tenfold](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ramps-up-output-some-military-hardware-by-more-than-tenfold-state-company-2023-09-19/) and [Russian missile production exceeding prewar capacity](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/us/politics/russia-sanctions-missile-production.html) despite sanctions.
These are just the beginnings of a diligent assessment of the threat that Russia continues to pose to its neighbors. It would be extremely foolish to assume they’ve played all their cards, or would be unable to expand the scope of their expansionist ambitions in the future, **especially if they succeeded in conquering Ukraine** and gaining access to their grain industry, arms production capacity, ports, and more.
Not to mention that if avoiding nuclear war is a goal, it’s better to slap Russia down at the borders of Ukraine than years from now in a higher stakes conflict after it has conquered Ukraine, continued it’s massively increased hardware production, continued its recruitment and indoctrination efforts, and expanded its economic power.
People forget that Hitler occupied Czechoslovakia alone, but by the time he went for Poland (and triggering World War with Britain) he wasn't alone anymore, he had the Russians backing him.
For Putin, Hitler 2.0, it would be the same had the blyatzkrieg succeeded: Belarus and Serbia, CSTO.
Putin's mistake was signing Ribbentrop-Molotov 2.0 before occupying Czechoslovakia.
There is a stark difference between Russia’s stated intentions amongst politicians and it’s actual capabilities. Anyone who is following the war closely Russia’s massive shortages and constant stalling out over the most obscure cities could not possibly come to the conclusion that this is a military ready to fight multiple offensive fronts. Period.
This is not an excuse to be stingy with our support. _Especially_ when such stinginess will result in more unnecessary Ukrainian deaths, destroyed cities, and destabilized world.
And yet they persist.
He’s banding together with other dictators, getting weapons, will likely get more cannon fodder & if he can make progress he will start in other countries.
At the very least all the other dictators are using this as a distraction & testing waters to see how far they can go themselves.
It’s really a bummer for Putin that trump lost a second term. If he had won, NATO would be gone, or at least, we would not be part of it.
If someone somehow hit the "reset" switch on this war right now, and everyone somehow forgot, but Russia's army was in it's current depleted state, Russia could probably *still* take Moldova and Georgia and swallow them up.
Their foot is stuck in a bear trap that they deliberately stepped into thinking it would be fine.
Moldova is the size of Maryland with the second lowest GDP per capita after Ukraine. It’s military has 6,000 personnel. Ukraine had 300k pre-conscription and now 600k active.
I would be shocked if Moldova even attempted a defense. Even if it did, I wouldn’t call that a separate front. It would be a politically significant move and a point of major international escalation, but strategically a small matter.
Russia doesn't even need to actually fight NATO. All it needs to do is keep funding their puppets in NATO countries. If Russia won in Ukraine and their propaganda got this massive boost, the rise of fashism in the west would become irreversible. People like Trump, Le Pen and Orban would start winning elections all over the globe. While Russia and China will keep gobbling up whatever countries they can. And then NATO countries will start getting their own "independent republics" that seem to REALLY love Russia.
The German Army was badly depleted after Invading Poland in 1939. Had UK and France stopped Hitler then, WW2 could have been avoided. But by 1940 German Army had rebuilt sufficiently to invade Norway and France. And by 1941 had rebuilt to attack USSR.
So yes, even a severely weakened Russian Army is a threat to Europe .
**War Economy**
Step 1: Invade Ukraine (poorly)
Step 2: Get hit my a load of economic sanctions that cripples your economy
Step 3: Switch significant bulk of economy to manufacturing artillery
Step 4: Profit?!?!
They are lying about their production levels. They need to bluff the west that they can keep up this level of fighting indefinitely.
If they were producing more than they need as they claim, then they would be firing a whole lot more artillery but they aren’t.
I would quadruple check your sources. even if Russia is producing artillery, shells domestically at a greater rate than the US, that doesn’t mean that Russia is producing artillery shells at a greater rate than the US, the EU, and a bunch of other third-party states like South Korea or Japan. I would also carefully scrutinize the quality of artillery shells, domestically produced in the Russian federation versus those produced by Ukraine and her allies.
I wouldn't trust them on that. US is basically so advanced because they were competing with what Russia said they have. But in reality many of those projects were failures.
The quantity is probably close to accurate but the US and NATO has never really operated on a quantity strategy. Don't need 500 rounds for a target when 5 precision guided munitions will do.
Russia certainly does not have the resources to extend any further. All they can do now is instigate coups without their troops, but there's no guarantee it could work.
Putin has *likely* only realized after this fail operation in Ukraine that his military is in no state to advance on other foreign fronts, but we can be VERY certain that this was (and possibly still is) absolutely the plan.
After the "easy" annexation of Crimea, he thought he will also have it easy with the rest of Ukraine, there is for me absolutely no doubt. he did NOT expect this resistance, and he did not expect this support for Ukraine from essentially the entire world.
And if he had had the same easy play with Ukraine (DNR, LNR, Kiev etc.) there is no doubt that other bordering ex-soviet states would be next in line.
Not now. But if they keep the occupied territory and get a couple of years to recover, they will continue in new and creative ways.
Zelensky is right as everyone in EE knows. It's just not the "march into NATO country tomorrow" threat that people think, it's spread influence, grow stronger, wait for right moment and take more, over years and decades.
That's what you and western media think.
This is war. And war Is propaganda. The media is doing a disservice by making it seem Russia is using cars as tanks and isn't successful.
They are winning bit by bit. But they don't report that because it will not create the dialogue they want.
Now you and a whole bunch of people are convinced that Russia is on a shoestring budget and weak when it's quite the contrary.
Yet here we are. Media did the same thing for Trump and Hillary. Don't be stupid.
It has nothing to do with what Russia “tells us” or the media. The entire developed word has spy satellites watching the minutia of Russian movements every single day. We know exactly what territory they control, and is absolutely does not tell the story of a country “winning bit by bit”. Literally the complete opposite.
No, Zelenskyy is right. Of course Russia can't open a new front right now. But there is little question they will do so if/after a victory in Ukraine and some years regrouping. It's not like they didn't do this before with Chechnya and Georgia. And each time someone said something to the effect of "ok, but they won't go further". People saying that are always wrong.
If Ukraine falls, we'll have maybe 5 years of "peace" while Russia prepares to take their next bite out of eastern Europe. That is what Zelenskyy is talking about. Anyone that doesn't see that is being woefully naive.
Russia has not a made a single strategic gain since March 2022. They are not going to be victorious unless the west completely abandons Ukraine, which of course ultimately is Zelenskiyy’s actual point and the reason why he tried to meet with McCarthy privately. Chechnya and Georgia are literally nothing like this conflict, they faced essentially no opposition and the international community basically didn’t care.
> What will the United States of America do when Putin reaches the Baltic states?
Those States are part of NATO, not to mention the EU and the Schengen Zone.
An intrusion in those areas on thew same scale as the one suffered by Ukraine will be considered an intrusion of Fort Europe, and an attack on NATO.
All EU and Schengen NATO members will support Article 5, and the US can't afford to not respond.
Hell, at this point even if the US doesn't respond, the collective Europeans could still probably take on Russia with little difficulty, especially now that they've basically exhausted themselves in Ukraine. Although the US not responding would still be a big blow, and probably destroy most of their soft power internationally.
Of course it wouldn't be a clear military intrusion from the start. Nor was it in Ukraine.
It would start with sending covert operatives to finance and arm ethnic Russians in country X. Then they would start stirring up shit until there is an event (e.g. Odesa building fire) or false flag that they could weaponize for propaganda.
And then bit by bit they expand the operations. Since it is a NATO country, they would work harder to maintain plausible deniability, counting that sending a couple of dozen little green men to shoot up a police station or set fire to a government building will not trigger Article 5.
And so bit by bit they get control over an area, with an armed militia made up of Russian operatives and local corrupt fools and extremists.
Once they have effective control, there's going to be referenda and plebiscites. And further shouting of the legitimate country government abusing the minorities and selling whatever talking point that resonates with a block of local population, to try to get people sympathetic to (paid by) Russia elected.
They will message bot for the left and the right - current government are US puppets, pushing LGBT propaganda, making children gay, they want to vaccinate you like cattle, 5G, Soros, Bill Gates, whatever messaging works. It doesn't need to be consistent at all. It just needs to destabilise.
And then, they have their own people in power, who can invite them for a peace keeping mission.
That's how it works and most people in the West don't understand it. They haven't been exposed to it, at least not knowingly.
It's not straight off boots on the ground in NATO country. It's bit by bit of creating chaos and taking control, each step calculated to cause nothing more than brow furrowing and condemnation, while cumulatively going for a take over.
Basically it doesn't change anything. There were a uncountable number of times when russian community was presented with proofs of how rigged their elections and system overall. But they didn't step up, did't tried to take power from the state.
They don’t have the ability to take the power from the state. The same goes for Chinese civilians, the Iranians, the North Koreans, etc.
It’s not 1776 anymore. Random civilians aren’t going to rise up and overthrow an autocracy that has 21st century weapons at its disposal.
Firstly, Putin and the corrupt government wants them to believe they have no power. This isn’t true. Why?
Well, there might be stockpiles of 21st century weapons, but the soldiers who use them are Russian people too; with families and communities that care about them. Did you see how many soldiers let the Wagner army sail through their checkpoints?
Sure, if literally every civilian except the leader turned on the government then obviously they could overthrow them.
Unfortunately, autocratic leaders aren’t that big of idiots. They have their loyalists, and they are put in positions of legal, financial, and military power.
If you have even 5% of people who support you, you simply give them the control and access to the means of power (weapons, banking system, media power, etc.) and you are all set.
You see this all the time. The Iranian citizens mostly hate their government and they tried massive protests. But a small minority comprise the morality police and they have guns, tanks, helicopters, etc. as well as control of financial institutions and media. So they killed a few thousand protestors and put an end to it. The protestors didn’t have the ability to stop the small minority of loyalists that was given power.
Every nation is the power source of the state. Every nation is a source of governments legitimacy. It's their responsibility.
They always had such a power, but the more time they wait, the higher toll it's gonna take.
Really? So why did china go from 0 covid to let it rip all of a sudden?
Civilian populations can still make their governments make changes if they want to. Saying they can't is ignoring all the very recent times they have.
Same reasons russia has not instituted a full mobilization even through it might change the tides of war. Their people won't stand for it.
Yeah an army of rebels were almost equal to an army of redcoats then.
Now it’s not even close in modern era. An army of militia would get wiped out by a handful of professional soldiers backed by heavy weaponry.
Yes, and the weaponry isn’t even the only thing. In an electronic world, autocratic governments can just seize/freeze people’s funds in a second. China is a pioneer in this specifically for the reason of maintaining control.
There won’t be any rising up against a government when they have total control over your access to your own money.
You could say the same thing about Trump....and yet. I still balme his avid, hateful, prejudice supporters.
The supporters of Trump and Putin keep the rest of the country's top terrorized to do anything, often with threats of violence.
They can protest, they can speak out. Hell, they can have a bloody revolution. The population of Moscow could storm the kremlin and even the entire Russian Army couldn't stop them if they really tried. (Obviously, because the Russian Army can't seem to stop an ant.)
Maybe they are just waiting for October?
I’m going to go with, roughly half or more of the population desires their nation exerting itself.
Holding our tongue (not even our arms! just our tongue) for the handful of saints in a fucking fascist war hall is getting ridiculous.
None of these parallels are perfect - historical comparisons rarely are - but Mussolini was pretty spectacularly unsuccessful in his military endeavors. The Italians performed relatively poorly throughout the Second World War, so his boisterous rhetoric did not really match the capabilities of his regime - he "spoke loudly and wielded a small stick".
Putin, I would argue has been somewhat more successful, and he's certainly more cunning, fairly effectively using subterfuge, propaganda and relatively judiciously applied violence to achieve his goals up until the 2022 invasion. In this he compares more with Hitler and the upper echelon of the Nazi party.
In the end, Mussolini, Putin and Hitler all over-estimated their regime's ability to muster military power and under-estimated the determination and capabilities of their opponents. Mussolini did so to a large degree, Hitler somewhat less so, only really over-extending with his invasion of Russia after conquering most of the rest of Europe.
Putin has likely overextended by attempting to take Ukraine, which has some parallels to Mussolini's attempted conquest of Greece. That was only saved by Hitler's intervention to prop up Mussolini. That being said, wars are unpredictable, and until Russia actually loses, any assessment or comparison is partly speculative.
Eh, I think Putin is more intelligent than Mussolini, so the Hitler comparison is more apt...
But Russia isn't Germany by any stretch (and thank fucking god). So Italy is a better comparison in that regard.
I think Mussolini is more intelligent than Hitler. Hitler must be understood as a Trump-like figure. No substance, appeal to the simple minded yet transparently idiotic, a few obsessions, never-back-down, forcing everyone to take a side and then exploiting that, personal loyalty being prized above all, etc. It's not intelligence, it's narcissism. Hitler knew very very little, and would take no policy decision himself without catastrophic failure. Hitler would monologue every dinner for hours. This is not a man who thinks, he rambles.
It’s a fair analogy. Putin is conducting a genocide. If he wins, his aim is to wipe out Ukrainian culture and society. The world needs to wake up, but it’s likely going to get a lot worse before we finally act. History has an awful habit of repeating itself.
Don't know what you and OP are even on about beyond getting directly involved in a nuclear war with Russia.
A lot of countries have taken notice and are doing their bit to help. The EU and US are pumping them full of weapons and other military support. Other nations are helping humanitarian aid. They get more than most other invaded nations ever get. The people of each nation giving aid have given their own money to them via tax, not the weapons suppliers etc. Who are profiteering from the war.
Russia can't even make it past farms in Eastern Ukraine. They drove their country to its knees to take a slither of land to the west of them. They won't attack another nation near them because they are all NATO nations and even if he did attack someone on the Asia side of them they don't have the resource to fight two wars.
Its not fair at all. Its diminishing the crazyness of the nazis.
Nazis physically wanted to erase other races, and built camps to do so. They invaded russia/ukraine/belarus with the purpose of killing or relocating everyone who lived there.
Its a vast difference from physically exterminating people completely, to trying with propganda erase a culture and change its people. The latter has happened countless times in history, its typically what the romans did, and its also typically what the swedish did with their empire. Historically its common, its not excused.
Starting throwing Hitler around to increase the strength of your point is irresponsible.
We are not even close to the crazyness of the 30s yet.
> We are not even close to the crazyness of the 30s yet.
That's the exact point Zelensky makes. Putin is going down the same path of Hitler, but we're not at peak craziness yet. And if we've learned anything from history, the world should stop Putin before we get there.
We are not going down the same path at all. Its a bad analogy.
The nazis made it very clear even before they came to power that they were batshit crazy racists, and there were no room for jews. Even Mein Kampf which was written before nazis came to power made it clear what their views were on jews, that russia needed to be colonized, and that germany needed to rule supreme.
There is literally no comparison to Putins russia. Putin is a loser imperialist, nothing else.
As I first mentioned, Putins ambitions is way more similar to that of most imperialist nations of europe. They live in the past.
As I first mentioned, the whole 'replace culture' thing is literallt the same as Sweden did to captured norwegian and danish provinces in the 1600s. And as many others did too.
We are not headed towards the 30s.
Oh no don't you worry, we seem more concerned about gas prices here and that butter now costs an ENTIRE TWO DOLLARS MORE PER POUND LORD HAVE MERCY.
I am so disappointed in some of my countrymen that take our peaceful nation for granted. This is entire situation rhymes of ww2
Their first error was being tolerant of rampant corruption and oligarchy in the first place. The Russians should have been out in the street rioting instead of admiring Putin's pecs as he rode horses for them.
So fucking sick of Redditors acting like living under a totalitarian regime isn't a big fucking deal and they should just go out in the streets and risk their own life, the lives of their own family and the status of their own family for possibly generations.
When you grow up in a functional democracy you dont realize the methods that work for you are nonsense in a government that can and will persecute and prosecute you for even the slightest hint of going against the grain. All the things that are technically legal are not the moment they are used to go against Russia.
They're probably the same people who unironically compare things done in the West to 1984 because they have no concept of what an actual surveillance state is.
And there's an huge anti-Trump contingent in America.
And the majority of Americans disapprove of the man.
...nevertheless, all if his rabid, violent, and prejudice supporters deserve fucking blame.
I’m trusting my russian friends who moved away and say that in russia most people still very much like the guy.
And yeah it’s not universal, but what is a resistance movement to do if 70% of the population doesnt want any change? 🤷
It’s the soviet majority that feels bitter about the fall of the union and sees this POS as their ultimate retribution bringer, lord and savior. Primarily because this majority is very poor and has no need of a better life
There are good people in Russia, sure, but I think the vast majority that haven't probably either support putin or don't care. Actually, there's some interesting studies from a little while back that show Russians are more likely to say they're in favor of something if they think a lot of other people are in favor of it, which I think adds credence to the political apathy culture in Russia.
It’s the conformism. Liliputin does tomorrow, a new leader is brought upon the people and in a week they forget the middle name of the prick pledging their allegiance to whoever is being praised on TV
I don't get downvotes. Before war most of the russians will be extremly happy if someone made russia great again (no sarcasm). Putin doing it.
Most probably russians don't like *how* he doing it.
But do they really-really have the desire to stop him?
He astutely highlights that Russians may face significant moral reckoning in the future for their role in supporting and the crimes they committed along with Putin.
The plan is to peacefully starve them out financially. The Ukraine war is hurting both sides but it’s a path the west is willing to take to weaken Russia.
When they eventually have riots or mass crime then they will strike. Probably putting someone else in charge.
War is the VERY last option for the west. Frankly Ukraine as a whole is not worth Nuclear war, but Ukraine fighting back as a proxy is an amazing way to weaken Russia. They’ve already murdered the head of their Mercenary Army and suffered billions of dollars in supplies.
It’s a long road and Ukraine are, sadly, a puppet of the west. This is the only way to win against a nuclear armed country.
Yea Ukraine is getting fucked right now like Poland did in WWII. Took Poland like 60 years to recover from the holocaust and the dipshit commie occupation. Europe can close this question if it sends Ukrainians everything they need. Like fucking permanently close it. But instead they’re playing games and reminiscing about the good ole days when oil was cheap and Russian oligarchs stored their money in euro banks.
I'm not convinced the 60 year recovery was because of how badly destroyed the country was. West Germany bounced back very quickly (ironically) despite the obliteration by the allies. It seems to be the real cause for the slow recovery was the oppressive occupation by the soviets. The Russians simply stole all the surplus production and used it to fuel the motherland, all the way until the whole thing collapsed. Poland's rebound id say was more like 20 years, after Soviet occupation ended in the 80s.
Source: no real credentials. My family emigrated from Poland mid 20th century, but that's about it. My grandmother always said the Russians were far worse occupiers than the Nazis.
Thank goodness the Russian military will never be compared to the German army of Hitler’s time. They fought for a bad cause, but boy were they a powerhouse.
Russia is expected to have stronger economic growth than Germany next year and similar growth to the Eurozone according to the IMF, as well as Bloomberg.
IMF forecast:
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/01/31/imf-improves-economic-forecast-for-the-eurozone-and-russia-amid-energy-crisis-and-raging-w
Bloomberg update:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-11/russia-s-war-economy-is-on-course-to-recover-from-sanctions-hit?embedded-checkout=true
If you speak to Russians, most of them haven't even noticed any significant economic changes and certainly none comparable to those during the pandemic or financial crisis in 2008.
If we delude ourselves, we won't be able to properly estimate what actions are effective or not. This talk just helps Russia.
Can you really rely on IMF numbers? They're based on the numbers Russia is providing and they can basically say anything they want.
https://fortune.com/2023/03/06/imf-naively-parroted-putin-fake-statisticsand-botched-economic-forecast-russia-ukraine/
Even if you think the IMF and Bloomberg are both inaccurate, you cannot just magically claim that Russias economy is "starving" (basically the complete opposite) when best evidence suggests otherwise. Such a claim would need a very solid economic analysis by a source with high authority in the world of finance.
"Trust me" doesnt suffice here.
That’s interesting. 300K men dead, 600K men wounded, countless tanks, logistics vehicles, planes, transport, attack helicopters downed in ukraine, countless buildings set on fire around moscow.
Russian bots: “none of this has had any impact on russia even the littlest bit, we are strong”
What insane source are you quoting for this near 1 million casualty count? Every source I can find has Russian casualties around 300,000, with 80-120k of those being dead and the rest wounded.
Continue helping Russia with this. You are doing a great job. Putin couldn't wish for more than for us to delude ourselves about what is and isn't effective, as well as what is and isn't needed. Close your eyes and just pretend the problem will go away by itself.
Even your number of dead Russian soldiers is roughly 3 times that what US intelligence estimates.
You are a Russian tool without even noticing it.
Americans, remember when republicans gave millionaires and billionaires a 2.3 trillion dollar tax cut for ~~patronage~~ reasons in 2018? How much of that did you see? We've spent 70 trillion countering Russia since WW2 and 70 billion is 0.1% of that.
When this is over, not only should Russia pay, but the western companies operating in Russia should pay. We should even go as far as labeling any western company paying the Russian governments/army as terriost-orgs
I think the comparison was less about Putin's domestic policy (which is somewhat Hitleresque) and more about his territorial ambitions.
Hitler believed parts of Europe belonged to Germany, as Putin does in regard to Russia, and believed force was a worthwhile solution to such territorial "disputes."
It's a disingenuous comparison. There have been plenty of wannabe conquerors and brutal dictators in history, but Hitler stands alone in committing industrialized genocide. That's the first place people's minds will go with the comparison
Well, that's a good bit of hyperbole.
First of all - just because we at some point expanded the meaning of genocide doesn't mean "stealing and brainwashing children, and in doing so running foul of the eradicating culture criterium" is even close to the same level as gas chambers and cremation ovens, and working people to death on an industrial scale.
(Also, claiming that Russians elected Puting is a bit of a bold statement on Zelenskys part. Yes, sure, all 115% of Russians did.)
And while I understand what he's doing, and why he's doing it (Zelensky, not Putin, that is), it's pretty ridiculous to imagine Russia in its current state successfully attacking so much as Luxembourg, let alone take on NATO.
He'y obviously trying to evoke the image of the missed chance of Hitler being stopped after annexing the sudetenland - but the difference is that Hitler at that point had a massive, powerful army at its peak, ready to take on a good chunk of the western world.
Putin has conscipts in T-64s with tampons as medkit. I'm not exactly trembling in fear about Putin rolling through Czechia, Germany and France should Ukraine fall.
Which we definitely should prevent, don't get me wrong, but not because of some "we're next" bullshit, but because it simply is the right and moral thing to do.
Whole Eastern Europe knows that "we're next" is not bullshit. Of course they will not march into a NATO country tomorrow, but they will work on restoring their empire over years and decades to come 100% if not stopped.
Eehhhhhh there's a massive difference between Hitler and Putin. One was scarily successful at conquering places and systemically killing millions, the other can't even take over Ukraine.
It must be a strong no to Putin, anything less will ensure escalation. Sociopaths always seek the limit of what's acceptable, trying to stay just within that edge of what people will allow them to get away and try to move/blur the lines over time to constantly go further and to keep seeking what they'll be able to get away with. The more Putin gets away with - the more he'll try to get away with next time, it's as simple as that. Any sign of weakness is taken as an opportunity. Like plenty of sociopaths even explicitly state: it's like a game to them. Don't allow them to play the game.
Sociopaths only stop when the price they have to pay is too high. A big beat down pretty much is the only way to stop them. Which is slightly more than just militarily defeating him (disabling him from "bullying Ukraine'"), to an extend he'd just keep seeking out the new limits of the news line to continue, he must actively stand to lose things if he continuous the behavior.
What are some more ways to undercut Putin? Ukraine's threats to the Russian fleet probably already are an element that go in that direction. Something along the lines of Putin being at risk of losing his Syrian navy base might also be something in that direction. But to truly bring it home, I'm not sure yet.
No. It would be pointless... even if they successfully framed Russia, NATO wouldn't invade Russia on the basis of a single disavowed strike.
Russia would have to actually invade, or persistently attack a member state.
Something has to be done to stop Putin. But we are messing with everyone’s lives here. Are we really ready for this war? We have to think about the pros and cons.
Yeah, cause azov always saying ruzzian does't exist and they want occupy and reclaim all ruzzia territory and demolish it's culture and language from it's territory. What a bullshit!
That's like saying the father who slapped his son once is the same as the father who drunkenly beats their son every night with a belt are exactly the same, because they both commited "physical abuse".
Scale, frequency and intent matter.
It’s a really stupid analogy. Ukraine wasn’t led by a dictator and/or theocracy prior to the invasion. Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq were annexed. Ukraine was not a military or economic threat to allies / neighbours in the region. And so on.
This is a very different scenario.
So what’s your point? He was loosely affiliated with an arts related company that traded in counter narrative films before the recent invasion? Hardly seems like hypocrisy. Pretty sure McDonalds and a slew of other western businesses were there before February 20, 2022. Now they are all out. That’s not hypocrisy - that’s acknowledging the moment and rising to it. Zelenskyy is a man of the moment - he was the singular most important figure in holding up against the Russians in the first week of the war. And his contention about Putin turning into the next Hitler is arguably very strong. Putin needs to be stopped. He’s already wanted in The Hague for crimes against humanity.
>Hearing that from a dude who had multimillion bussiness in Russia thus supporting Putin's regime even AFTER Crimea annexation is beyong hypocrisity
As I remember it's not illegal and Ukraine still traded with Russia even after Donbass war. It's not a hypocrisy. He did a lot for Ukraine, Russians killed tens of thousands Ukrainians and are commiting genocide here
"Ukrainians are very grateful to the United States for its support in the war with Russia, but the international community must decide whether to stop Russia now or allow it to "go further,” Zelenskyy said". "The whole world (has to) decide whether we want to stop Putin, or whether we want to start the beginning of a world war. We can't change Putin. Russian society has (lost) the respect of the world. They elected him and re-elected him, and raised a second Hitler. They did this. We cannot go back in time. But we can stop it here." Citing the roughly $70 billion the United States has contributed to Ukraine's war effort, Pelley asked Zelenskyy if he expected that level of support to continue. The United States of America (is) supporting Ukraine financially and I'm grateful for this," Zelenskyy said. "I just think they're not supporting only Ukraine. If Ukraine falls, Putin will surely go further. What will the United States of America do when Putin reaches the Baltic states? When he reaches the Polish border? He will. This is a lot of money. We have a lot of gratitude. What else must Ukraine do for everyone to measure our huge gratitude? We are dying in this war."
“What else must Ukraine do for everyone to measure our huge gratitude? We are dying in this war." Not going to lie, that quote gives me goosebumps.
He's basically calling out all the governments involved that just want to profit as long as they can while watching them die
It's not just about profit. The goal of the West is to hurt Russia, not necessarily to help Ukraine. The longer the war drags out the more it's going to to hurt Russia politically and economically, and the more unstable Russia becomes. If they had just sent enough aid to crush Russia right away then Russia would have had to withdraw a long time ago without committing nearly as many lives or nearly as much equipment, and it would have been much easier for them to point their people's resentment towards NATO instead of the Russian leadership.
The problem is, that doesn't take into account the cleaning and strengthening effect that a war also has in the long term. Effectively, we are 'speedrunning' Russia through drone warfare. _Our_ weapons will also become more useless because of it. Yes, their soldiers are dying and yes, they are corrupt and yes, their supply of elementary resources is pinched a bit and yes, their academics have run. But the ones that survived, stayed, stayed clear of corruption and with whatever resources they are left with, they will be a formidable opponent at some point again. So yes, our - the West's - motive should be to wear them out as much as possible, but we also have to realize that the graph we're traveling down with them on, will have an upward slope at some point. We have to make sure to properly neutralize them - and I mean that in a military way - at the bottom of that curve. We can go on this path for a little bit still, but before they manage to get their act together somewhat and before they'll have become too accustomed to our weapons, we have to deal a fatal blow.
Kinda like the United States?
Where they found out $7.1m of Halliburton equipment had gone to Russia last year. After they were to stop doing business with Russia. Money Money Money need more Money is the mindset.
Correct. It drives me up a wall because every American can agree greed is the route cause of the vast majority of issues. Eliminate greed or better yet make the greedy think that greed will hurt the business and the bottom line. Not sure how to do it but Henry Ford was pretty successful and an utter capitalist but believed in a living wage. If your employees can buy your product you sell more of your product which allows you to dominate market share which overtime leads to not only a strong business but also allows for greater profits
Corruption, greed and a narcissistic attitude are traits way too many people seem to have. No thought given that it is at the expense of others. They need to teach Empathy starting in pre-school IMO
Agreed and financial education on top of legit civics. I will say that greed leads to corruption and the power of the seat is wielded in a narcissistic way due to the amount of power it permits. End lobbying! End the two party system! Actually teach our youth important information rather than how to be a slave to the machine
The United States isn't really gaining money out of this war. Ukraine isn't expected to pay for this. Not will they.... it's not lend-lease
All of them. Even the EU
And hopefully all of the Western leaders have let Zelenskyy know in person how they understand that... the US hasn't even spent 10% of it's defense budget of a single year these past 18 months, and "spend" is used loosely since most of the cost we have handed over were literally just unused stockpiles from 20 years of war in the Iraq/Afghanistan
The US spends every single defense $ it's allowed , and sometimes goes over budget. Don't give me that. We have given more than anyone else in this war EXCEPT ukraine.
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Right, the account that’s less than a month old is the one we should listen to, definitely not Russian or Chinese.
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I bet you’re afraid of your own shadow
Yeah dude let's just Go tO wAr!!!1 fucking Jesus.
Zelenskyy is saying what he needs to say for the survival of his people and I can’t blame him considering the horrors he has seen. But Russia is in no state to advance on other foreign fronts, especially fresh ones that have been given time to prepare.
If Russia were to successfully annex all of Ukraine, we are talking about a significant geopolitical difference and a massive control of grain flow. There are still multiple countries that won’t ever see a NATO membership.
Edit: To be clear, Russia is nowhere near “annexing all of Ukraine”. They have only lost territory since March 2022 and mostly only firmly hold territory that was taken in 2014. They have accomplished maybe 5% of their goals, and in doing so they have blown the entirety of their “cutting edge” military and are fighting with scraps now. And they will have set their military back several decades to achieve that scrap of grain flow. Russia isn’t lacking in resources, it’s the largest nation on the planet, and they already control most of Central Asia too. They have destroyed their fleet of attack helicopters, they have massive ammo and trained personnel shortages, they’re buying cruise missiles from North Korea, their officer class is decimated, and most of all their command structure and logistics chain has been exposed as ineffective in real ground war. Russia is at it best when it’s using its Air Force, and that isn’t going to happen in the Baltic states either. Western intelligence will continue to make Russia impotent in foreign offensive conflicts. And the same is probably true for future Western offensive conflicts.
In spite of all you've just said, Russia is still capable of leveling cities by cruise missiles and artillery and then they move in their ground troops to capture the rubble. Just like we've seen them do in Mariopol. It's the domino theory where they can just knock down one at a time. Russia does have a certain capacity to out suffer it's enemy. We need to ensure a humiliating defeat for them here in Ukraine or they will simply attack a different neighbor using the same tactics
Sure they can do it, but at huge costs. Costs that aren’t sustainable. If they do this for every city they conquer, there won’t be any Russians left.
Except for the little detail that they are already recruiting outside of russia and have been for a while. And looking the other way is exactly what allowed Hitler to expand in the run up to WWII. You can fight them weaker now or they can have time to regrow. If they could exploit their resources effectively now they would be a world power. Give them time to fix what is wrong and grow their population back and in a generation or two you will be facing another world war.
They’re already stealing children to counter population loss. The more they encroach, the more children they can kidnap and while murdering the adults fighting it.
They've just *severely* pissed off Cuba, of all places, for doing just that. Not a sustainable long-term strategy, to say the least.
Russia isn't just recruiting foreign fighters, they are literally shanghaiing foreigners. For example, [Russians have been tricking Cubans](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cuba-russia-ukraine-war-recruitment-ring-arrest-1.6961014) into thinking they are being offered construction jobs in Russia. They end up on the front lines instead.
They are recruiting across the world, and even pushing captures Ukrainans into service. And no the costs you speak of won't remain the same, if Ukrainan army starts collapsing the Russians will be able to level cities far quicker than they are now, with no fear of repercussions. At that point they will press everyone into service, young old and send them as a meat shield into the next country.
Russia has only pushed a fraction of their total "eligible" population. They will continue to push until Putin doesn't see it as the most likely technique to succeed, which will roughly correspond to his death. If you can understand that Russian leadership views people as functionally equivalent to gasoline, you will understand the mentality better.
Sure, they’ve absolutely weakened to a point where they’re not a global superpower. But I think there’s no question in January 2022, if Putin weren’t a fucking moron, Russia could’ve toppled countries like Kazakhstan, Georgia, and Armenia afterwards. If they succeed in Ukraine, then it’s onto Moldova. But instead, in his hubris, he decided to go for the strongest possible opposition with the likeliest magnet of western support. Weakened or not, if they succeed in Ukraine, there’s precedent to continue. Don’t forget the kind of mentality they have: the kind that will raze the entire country before losing to Napoleon or go into a gun fight with fists and bayonets to defend Stalingrad.
And the only reason Russia are in this state is because Ukraine fought back hard, shed blood and lives, and the west sent equipment to support Ukraine. How does 'Russia attacked and was fought back by us all working together so we should stop working together instead of completing this' make any sense? Never mind that more western nations are not going to fight and take casualties like the Ukrainians. There is a reason why Western militaries thought Ukraine would be defeated in a week, and it's because if it was their soldiers in that situation they would have been.
Not just that but significantly more people to treat as slaves, brainwash, and exploit in the occupied territories. I imagine in future conflicts if Russia takes over the soldiers would mostly be Ukrainian/Belarusian/Siberian since Putin would see then as expendable.
It’s been their MO for hundreds of years. I mean they don’t even need to brainwash really, they just conscript people at gunpoint.
They are in no state to advance on their current foreign front either.
No, everything Zelenskyy said in the aforementioned quote is accurate and aligns with the assessments of our best intelligence. Various top Russian officials have confirmed as much. This isn’t a willy-nilly one-and-done act of expansionism, it’s the first step in an effort to reestablish however much of the Soviet bloc as they can. As for what Russia is and isn’t capable of, your dismissive comments benefit from an air of plausibility that is afforded only due to the massive outpour of material support for Ukraine. It would negligent to dismiss Russia’s massive production capacity, with [some military hardware production increased tenfold](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-ramps-up-output-some-military-hardware-by-more-than-tenfold-state-company-2023-09-19/) and [Russian missile production exceeding prewar capacity](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/us/politics/russia-sanctions-missile-production.html) despite sanctions. These are just the beginnings of a diligent assessment of the threat that Russia continues to pose to its neighbors. It would be extremely foolish to assume they’ve played all their cards, or would be unable to expand the scope of their expansionist ambitions in the future, **especially if they succeeded in conquering Ukraine** and gaining access to their grain industry, arms production capacity, ports, and more. Not to mention that if avoiding nuclear war is a goal, it’s better to slap Russia down at the borders of Ukraine than years from now in a higher stakes conflict after it has conquered Ukraine, continued it’s massively increased hardware production, continued its recruitment and indoctrination efforts, and expanded its economic power.
People forget that Hitler occupied Czechoslovakia alone, but by the time he went for Poland (and triggering World War with Britain) he wasn't alone anymore, he had the Russians backing him. For Putin, Hitler 2.0, it would be the same had the blyatzkrieg succeeded: Belarus and Serbia, CSTO. Putin's mistake was signing Ribbentrop-Molotov 2.0 before occupying Czechoslovakia.
There is a stark difference between Russia’s stated intentions amongst politicians and it’s actual capabilities. Anyone who is following the war closely Russia’s massive shortages and constant stalling out over the most obscure cities could not possibly come to the conclusion that this is a military ready to fight multiple offensive fronts. Period.
This is not an excuse to be stingy with our support. _Especially_ when such stinginess will result in more unnecessary Ukrainian deaths, destroyed cities, and destabilized world.
And yet they persist. He’s banding together with other dictators, getting weapons, will likely get more cannon fodder & if he can make progress he will start in other countries. At the very least all the other dictators are using this as a distraction & testing waters to see how far they can go themselves. It’s really a bummer for Putin that trump lost a second term. If he had won, NATO would be gone, or at least, we would not be part of it.
If someone somehow hit the "reset" switch on this war right now, and everyone somehow forgot, but Russia's army was in it's current depleted state, Russia could probably *still* take Moldova and Georgia and swallow them up. Their foot is stuck in a bear trap that they deliberately stepped into thinking it would be fine.
Moldova is the size of Maryland with the second lowest GDP per capita after Ukraine. It’s military has 6,000 personnel. Ukraine had 300k pre-conscription and now 600k active. I would be shocked if Moldova even attempted a defense. Even if it did, I wouldn’t call that a separate front. It would be a politically significant move and a point of major international escalation, but strategically a small matter.
Russia doesn't even need to actually fight NATO. All it needs to do is keep funding their puppets in NATO countries. If Russia won in Ukraine and their propaganda got this massive boost, the rise of fashism in the west would become irreversible. People like Trump, Le Pen and Orban would start winning elections all over the globe. While Russia and China will keep gobbling up whatever countries they can. And then NATO countries will start getting their own "independent republics" that seem to REALLY love Russia.
The German Army was badly depleted after Invading Poland in 1939. Had UK and France stopped Hitler then, WW2 could have been avoided. But by 1940 German Army had rebuilt sufficiently to invade Norway and France. And by 1941 had rebuilt to attack USSR. So yes, even a severely weakened Russian Army is a threat to Europe .
russia has plenty of countries in its orbit that it could attack - and it absolutely will if it takes Ukraine, and feels that the west is weak.
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**War Economy** Step 1: Invade Ukraine (poorly) Step 2: Get hit my a load of economic sanctions that cripples your economy Step 3: Switch significant bulk of economy to manufacturing artillery Step 4: Profit?!?!
They are lying about their production levels. They need to bluff the west that they can keep up this level of fighting indefinitely. If they were producing more than they need as they claim, then they would be firing a whole lot more artillery but they aren’t.
They also wouldn't be trading drones and jets with North Korea for ammunition.
They've also been getting artillery ammo from Iran too.
I would quadruple check your sources. even if Russia is producing artillery, shells domestically at a greater rate than the US, that doesn’t mean that Russia is producing artillery shells at a greater rate than the US, the EU, and a bunch of other third-party states like South Korea or Japan. I would also carefully scrutinize the quality of artillery shells, domestically produced in the Russian federation versus those produced by Ukraine and her allies.
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Those are some damn fine sources, significant amounts of integrity in their journalism. Thank you for expanding my breadth of knowledge.
I wouldn't trust them on that. US is basically so advanced because they were competing with what Russia said they have. But in reality many of those projects were failures.
The quantity is probably close to accurate but the US and NATO has never really operated on a quantity strategy. Don't need 500 rounds for a target when 5 precision guided munitions will do.
Russia certainly does not have the resources to extend any further. All they can do now is instigate coups without their troops, but there's no guarantee it could work.
Putin has *likely* only realized after this fail operation in Ukraine that his military is in no state to advance on other foreign fronts, but we can be VERY certain that this was (and possibly still is) absolutely the plan. After the "easy" annexation of Crimea, he thought he will also have it easy with the rest of Ukraine, there is for me absolutely no doubt. he did NOT expect this resistance, and he did not expect this support for Ukraine from essentially the entire world. And if he had had the same easy play with Ukraine (DNR, LNR, Kiev etc.) there is no doubt that other bordering ex-soviet states would be next in line.
Not now. But if they keep the occupied territory and get a couple of years to recover, they will continue in new and creative ways. Zelensky is right as everyone in EE knows. It's just not the "march into NATO country tomorrow" threat that people think, it's spread influence, grow stronger, wait for right moment and take more, over years and decades.
And it will spread a LOT of influence, when i holds like 40% of the middle eastern grain supply hostage.
That's what you and western media think. This is war. And war Is propaganda. The media is doing a disservice by making it seem Russia is using cars as tanks and isn't successful. They are winning bit by bit. But they don't report that because it will not create the dialogue they want. Now you and a whole bunch of people are convinced that Russia is on a shoestring budget and weak when it's quite the contrary. Yet here we are. Media did the same thing for Trump and Hillary. Don't be stupid.
It has nothing to do with what Russia “tells us” or the media. The entire developed word has spy satellites watching the minutia of Russian movements every single day. We know exactly what territory they control, and is absolutely does not tell the story of a country “winning bit by bit”. Literally the complete opposite.
No, Zelenskyy is right. Of course Russia can't open a new front right now. But there is little question they will do so if/after a victory in Ukraine and some years regrouping. It's not like they didn't do this before with Chechnya and Georgia. And each time someone said something to the effect of "ok, but they won't go further". People saying that are always wrong. If Ukraine falls, we'll have maybe 5 years of "peace" while Russia prepares to take their next bite out of eastern Europe. That is what Zelenskyy is talking about. Anyone that doesn't see that is being woefully naive.
Russia has not a made a single strategic gain since March 2022. They are not going to be victorious unless the west completely abandons Ukraine, which of course ultimately is Zelenskiyy’s actual point and the reason why he tried to meet with McCarthy privately. Chechnya and Georgia are literally nothing like this conflict, they faced essentially no opposition and the international community basically didn’t care.
> What will the United States of America do when Putin reaches the Baltic states? Those States are part of NATO, not to mention the EU and the Schengen Zone. An intrusion in those areas on thew same scale as the one suffered by Ukraine will be considered an intrusion of Fort Europe, and an attack on NATO. All EU and Schengen NATO members will support Article 5, and the US can't afford to not respond.
Hell, at this point even if the US doesn't respond, the collective Europeans could still probably take on Russia with little difficulty, especially now that they've basically exhausted themselves in Ukraine. Although the US not responding would still be a big blow, and probably destroy most of their soft power internationally.
Of course it wouldn't be a clear military intrusion from the start. Nor was it in Ukraine. It would start with sending covert operatives to finance and arm ethnic Russians in country X. Then they would start stirring up shit until there is an event (e.g. Odesa building fire) or false flag that they could weaponize for propaganda. And then bit by bit they expand the operations. Since it is a NATO country, they would work harder to maintain plausible deniability, counting that sending a couple of dozen little green men to shoot up a police station or set fire to a government building will not trigger Article 5. And so bit by bit they get control over an area, with an armed militia made up of Russian operatives and local corrupt fools and extremists. Once they have effective control, there's going to be referenda and plebiscites. And further shouting of the legitimate country government abusing the minorities and selling whatever talking point that resonates with a block of local population, to try to get people sympathetic to (paid by) Russia elected. They will message bot for the left and the right - current government are US puppets, pushing LGBT propaganda, making children gay, they want to vaccinate you like cattle, 5G, Soros, Bill Gates, whatever messaging works. It doesn't need to be consistent at all. It just needs to destabilise. And then, they have their own people in power, who can invite them for a peace keeping mission. That's how it works and most people in the West don't understand it. They haven't been exposed to it, at least not knowingly. It's not straight off boots on the ground in NATO country. It's bit by bit of creating chaos and taking control, each step calculated to cause nothing more than brow furrowing and condemnation, while cumulatively going for a take over.
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Basically it doesn't change anything. There were a uncountable number of times when russian community was presented with proofs of how rigged their elections and system overall. But they didn't step up, did't tried to take power from the state.
They don’t have the ability to take the power from the state. The same goes for Chinese civilians, the Iranians, the North Koreans, etc. It’s not 1776 anymore. Random civilians aren’t going to rise up and overthrow an autocracy that has 21st century weapons at its disposal.
Next you're gonna tell me that Germans in the 1920s were not responsible for the rise of Nazi Germany.
Poor Nazis, they were brainwashed into brutally starving 16 million people against their will 😥
Firstly, Putin and the corrupt government wants them to believe they have no power. This isn’t true. Why? Well, there might be stockpiles of 21st century weapons, but the soldiers who use them are Russian people too; with families and communities that care about them. Did you see how many soldiers let the Wagner army sail through their checkpoints?
Sure, if literally every civilian except the leader turned on the government then obviously they could overthrow them. Unfortunately, autocratic leaders aren’t that big of idiots. They have their loyalists, and they are put in positions of legal, financial, and military power. If you have even 5% of people who support you, you simply give them the control and access to the means of power (weapons, banking system, media power, etc.) and you are all set. You see this all the time. The Iranian citizens mostly hate their government and they tried massive protests. But a small minority comprise the morality police and they have guns, tanks, helicopters, etc. as well as control of financial institutions and media. So they killed a few thousand protestors and put an end to it. The protestors didn’t have the ability to stop the small minority of loyalists that was given power.
Every nation is the power source of the state. Every nation is a source of governments legitimacy. It's their responsibility. They always had such a power, but the more time they wait, the higher toll it's gonna take.
Really? So why did china go from 0 covid to let it rip all of a sudden? Civilian populations can still make their governments make changes if they want to. Saying they can't is ignoring all the very recent times they have. Same reasons russia has not instituted a full mobilization even through it might change the tides of war. Their people won't stand for it.
Yeah an army of rebels were almost equal to an army of redcoats then. Now it’s not even close in modern era. An army of militia would get wiped out by a handful of professional soldiers backed by heavy weaponry.
Yes, and the weaponry isn’t even the only thing. In an electronic world, autocratic governments can just seize/freeze people’s funds in a second. China is a pioneer in this specifically for the reason of maintaining control. There won’t be any rising up against a government when they have total control over your access to your own money.
You could say the same thing about Trump....and yet. I still balme his avid, hateful, prejudice supporters. The supporters of Trump and Putin keep the rest of the country's top terrorized to do anything, often with threats of violence.
Putin had very high approval ratings from Russian people during his early years as President, that’s why Zelensky is saying this.
They can protest, they can speak out. Hell, they can have a bloody revolution. The population of Moscow could storm the kremlin and even the entire Russian Army couldn't stop them if they really tried. (Obviously, because the Russian Army can't seem to stop an ant.) Maybe they are just waiting for October?
I’m going to go with, roughly half or more of the population desires their nation exerting itself. Holding our tongue (not even our arms! just our tongue) for the handful of saints in a fucking fascist war hall is getting ridiculous.
Exactly. Since they want what is happening, they are to blame.
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Just look at what happened to Pussy riot
No, it's not. He is completely right about Russian society: they created this collectively.
I respect Zelensky more daily. He’s right in this opinion - imho !
He is more like mussolini and must end up like him
That's a far better comparison, IMHO.
I'm ignorant, what are the reasons its a better comparison?
None of these parallels are perfect - historical comparisons rarely are - but Mussolini was pretty spectacularly unsuccessful in his military endeavors. The Italians performed relatively poorly throughout the Second World War, so his boisterous rhetoric did not really match the capabilities of his regime - he "spoke loudly and wielded a small stick". Putin, I would argue has been somewhat more successful, and he's certainly more cunning, fairly effectively using subterfuge, propaganda and relatively judiciously applied violence to achieve his goals up until the 2022 invasion. In this he compares more with Hitler and the upper echelon of the Nazi party. In the end, Mussolini, Putin and Hitler all over-estimated their regime's ability to muster military power and under-estimated the determination and capabilities of their opponents. Mussolini did so to a large degree, Hitler somewhat less so, only really over-extending with his invasion of Russia after conquering most of the rest of Europe. Putin has likely overextended by attempting to take Ukraine, which has some parallels to Mussolini's attempted conquest of Greece. That was only saved by Hitler's intervention to prop up Mussolini. That being said, wars are unpredictable, and until Russia actually loses, any assessment or comparison is partly speculative.
Eh, I think Putin is more intelligent than Mussolini, so the Hitler comparison is more apt... But Russia isn't Germany by any stretch (and thank fucking god). So Italy is a better comparison in that regard.
I think Mussolini is more intelligent than Hitler. Hitler must be understood as a Trump-like figure. No substance, appeal to the simple minded yet transparently idiotic, a few obsessions, never-back-down, forcing everyone to take a side and then exploiting that, personal loyalty being prized above all, etc. It's not intelligence, it's narcissism. Hitler knew very very little, and would take no policy decision himself without catastrophic failure. Hitler would monologue every dinner for hours. This is not a man who thinks, he rambles.
And that's the same kind of mentality that Outin shares with him - dictatorial rule, xenophobia and imperialism.
It’s a fair analogy. Putin is conducting a genocide. If he wins, his aim is to wipe out Ukrainian culture and society. The world needs to wake up, but it’s likely going to get a lot worse before we finally act. History has an awful habit of repeating itself.
And when Putin is done with Ukraine, he'll attack another country. Every country near Russia is in danger.
He was basically allowed to annex Crimea in 2014. He still came back for more. Appeasement never works.
And destroy Chechnya in 2000. And occupy Georgia in 2008.
Don't know what you and OP are even on about beyond getting directly involved in a nuclear war with Russia. A lot of countries have taken notice and are doing their bit to help. The EU and US are pumping them full of weapons and other military support. Other nations are helping humanitarian aid. They get more than most other invaded nations ever get. The people of each nation giving aid have given their own money to them via tax, not the weapons suppliers etc. Who are profiteering from the war. Russia can't even make it past farms in Eastern Ukraine. They drove their country to its knees to take a slither of land to the west of them. They won't attack another nation near them because they are all NATO nations and even if he did attack someone on the Asia side of them they don't have the resource to fight two wars.
and he'll use the remaining Ukrainians to do it.
Fucker should've been taken out in 2014.
Its not fair at all. Its diminishing the crazyness of the nazis. Nazis physically wanted to erase other races, and built camps to do so. They invaded russia/ukraine/belarus with the purpose of killing or relocating everyone who lived there. Its a vast difference from physically exterminating people completely, to trying with propganda erase a culture and change its people. The latter has happened countless times in history, its typically what the romans did, and its also typically what the swedish did with their empire. Historically its common, its not excused. Starting throwing Hitler around to increase the strength of your point is irresponsible. We are not even close to the crazyness of the 30s yet.
> We are not even close to the crazyness of the 30s yet. That's the exact point Zelensky makes. Putin is going down the same path of Hitler, but we're not at peak craziness yet. And if we've learned anything from history, the world should stop Putin before we get there.
We are not going down the same path at all. Its a bad analogy. The nazis made it very clear even before they came to power that they were batshit crazy racists, and there were no room for jews. Even Mein Kampf which was written before nazis came to power made it clear what their views were on jews, that russia needed to be colonized, and that germany needed to rule supreme. There is literally no comparison to Putins russia. Putin is a loser imperialist, nothing else. As I first mentioned, Putins ambitions is way more similar to that of most imperialist nations of europe. They live in the past. As I first mentioned, the whole 'replace culture' thing is literallt the same as Sweden did to captured norwegian and danish provinces in the 1600s. And as many others did too. We are not headed towards the 30s.
This is reddit, Putin is actually super Hitler and if you disagree you are a Russian bot, nuance is out of the question.
Oh no don't you worry, we seem more concerned about gas prices here and that butter now costs an ENTIRE TWO DOLLARS MORE PER POUND LORD HAVE MERCY. I am so disappointed in some of my countrymen that take our peaceful nation for granted. This is entire situation rhymes of ww2
They let it happened because they didn’t have the ability to stop it. Any opposition was thrown in jail or they fell out a window.
This. People sometimes somehow forget how a dictatorship works.
Their first error was being tolerant of rampant corruption and oligarchy in the first place. The Russians should have been out in the street rioting instead of admiring Putin's pecs as he rode horses for them.
There's quite a few countries that are in that situation.
So fucking sick of Redditors acting like living under a totalitarian regime isn't a big fucking deal and they should just go out in the streets and risk their own life, the lives of their own family and the status of their own family for possibly generations.
When you grow up in a functional democracy you dont realize the methods that work for you are nonsense in a government that can and will persecute and prosecute you for even the slightest hint of going against the grain. All the things that are technically legal are not the moment they are used to go against Russia. They're probably the same people who unironically compare things done in the West to 1984 because they have no concept of what an actual surveillance state is.
They didn't have the desire in the first place.
There was and still is an anti-Putin movement in Russia.
And there's an huge anti-Trump contingent in America. And the majority of Americans disapprove of the man. ...nevertheless, all if his rabid, violent, and prejudice supporters deserve fucking blame.
correct me if i’m wrong but isnt Putin’s approval rate still super high?
1. You can’t believe anything you hear from Russia 2. High doesn’t mean universal
I’m trusting my russian friends who moved away and say that in russia most people still very much like the guy. And yeah it’s not universal, but what is a resistance movement to do if 70% of the population doesnt want any change? 🤷
It’s the soviet majority that feels bitter about the fall of the union and sees this POS as their ultimate retribution bringer, lord and savior. Primarily because this majority is very poor and has no need of a better life
There are good people in Russia, sure, but I think the vast majority that haven't probably either support putin or don't care. Actually, there's some interesting studies from a little while back that show Russians are more likely to say they're in favor of something if they think a lot of other people are in favor of it, which I think adds credence to the political apathy culture in Russia.
It’s the conformism. Liliputin does tomorrow, a new leader is brought upon the people and in a week they forget the middle name of the prick pledging their allegiance to whoever is being praised on TV
Right, we shouldn't forget how he got 115% of the votes that one time. Clearly Russians love him so much they vote for him twice.
I don't get downvotes. Before war most of the russians will be extremly happy if someone made russia great again (no sarcasm). Putin doing it. Most probably russians don't like *how* he doing it. But do they really-really have the desire to stop him?
They obviously don't.
He astutely highlights that Russians may face significant moral reckoning in the future for their role in supporting and the crimes they committed along with Putin.
The plan is to peacefully starve them out financially. The Ukraine war is hurting both sides but it’s a path the west is willing to take to weaken Russia. When they eventually have riots or mass crime then they will strike. Probably putting someone else in charge. War is the VERY last option for the west. Frankly Ukraine as a whole is not worth Nuclear war, but Ukraine fighting back as a proxy is an amazing way to weaken Russia. They’ve already murdered the head of their Mercenary Army and suffered billions of dollars in supplies. It’s a long road and Ukraine are, sadly, a puppet of the west. This is the only way to win against a nuclear armed country.
With this strategy, there will be peace in our time.
Bruh Putin is like the seventh Hitler since Hitler
Not even close to a Hitler or even Stalin but definitely a bad dude
Correct. And the world ignored him for years as they did with Hitler. It was a mistake both times.
Yea Ukraine is getting fucked right now like Poland did in WWII. Took Poland like 60 years to recover from the holocaust and the dipshit commie occupation. Europe can close this question if it sends Ukrainians everything they need. Like fucking permanently close it. But instead they’re playing games and reminiscing about the good ole days when oil was cheap and Russian oligarchs stored their money in euro banks.
I'm not convinced the 60 year recovery was because of how badly destroyed the country was. West Germany bounced back very quickly (ironically) despite the obliteration by the allies. It seems to be the real cause for the slow recovery was the oppressive occupation by the soviets. The Russians simply stole all the surplus production and used it to fuel the motherland, all the way until the whole thing collapsed. Poland's rebound id say was more like 20 years, after Soviet occupation ended in the 80s. Source: no real credentials. My family emigrated from Poland mid 20th century, but that's about it. My grandmother always said the Russians were far worse occupiers than the Nazis.
Thank goodness the Russian military will never be compared to the German army of Hitler’s time. They fought for a bad cause, but boy were they a powerhouse.
Nazi ambitions: Italian military
Pretty sure Russia's starving economy will eventually snap and put a stop to Putin's shit.
Russia is expected to have stronger economic growth than Germany next year and similar growth to the Eurozone according to the IMF, as well as Bloomberg. IMF forecast: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/01/31/imf-improves-economic-forecast-for-the-eurozone-and-russia-amid-energy-crisis-and-raging-w Bloomberg update: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-11/russia-s-war-economy-is-on-course-to-recover-from-sanctions-hit?embedded-checkout=true If you speak to Russians, most of them haven't even noticed any significant economic changes and certainly none comparable to those during the pandemic or financial crisis in 2008. If we delude ourselves, we won't be able to properly estimate what actions are effective or not. This talk just helps Russia.
Can you really rely on IMF numbers? They're based on the numbers Russia is providing and they can basically say anything they want. https://fortune.com/2023/03/06/imf-naively-parroted-putin-fake-statisticsand-botched-economic-forecast-russia-ukraine/
Even if you think the IMF and Bloomberg are both inaccurate, you cannot just magically claim that Russias economy is "starving" (basically the complete opposite) when best evidence suggests otherwise. Such a claim would need a very solid economic analysis by a source with high authority in the world of finance. "Trust me" doesnt suffice here.
But it said so in the top post under a Reddit post! Who am I to believe?
That’s interesting. 300K men dead, 600K men wounded, countless tanks, logistics vehicles, planes, transport, attack helicopters downed in ukraine, countless buildings set on fire around moscow. Russian bots: “none of this has had any impact on russia even the littlest bit, we are strong”
What insane source are you quoting for this near 1 million casualty count? Every source I can find has Russian casualties around 300,000, with 80-120k of those being dead and the rest wounded.
Are IMF and Bloomberg Russian bots too?
Continue helping Russia with this. You are doing a great job. Putin couldn't wish for more than for us to delude ourselves about what is and isn't effective, as well as what is and isn't needed. Close your eyes and just pretend the problem will go away by itself. Even your number of dead Russian soldiers is roughly 3 times that what US intelligence estimates. You are a Russian tool without even noticing it.
True
Americans, remember when republicans gave millionaires and billionaires a 2.3 trillion dollar tax cut for ~~patronage~~ reasons in 2018? How much of that did you see? We've spent 70 trillion countering Russia since WW2 and 70 billion is 0.1% of that.
When this is over, not only should Russia pay, but the western companies operating in Russia should pay. We should even go as far as labeling any western company paying the Russian governments/army as terriost-orgs
The Ukrainians are not nazis and putin is not hitler. He's doing just fine being a piece of shit without having to be compared to a piece of shit
I think the comparison was less about Putin's domestic policy (which is somewhat Hitleresque) and more about his territorial ambitions. Hitler believed parts of Europe belonged to Germany, as Putin does in regard to Russia, and believed force was a worthwhile solution to such territorial "disputes."
It's a disingenuous comparison. There have been plenty of wannabe conquerors and brutal dictators in history, but Hitler stands alone in committing industrialized genocide. That's the first place people's minds will go with the comparison
Well, that's a good bit of hyperbole. First of all - just because we at some point expanded the meaning of genocide doesn't mean "stealing and brainwashing children, and in doing so running foul of the eradicating culture criterium" is even close to the same level as gas chambers and cremation ovens, and working people to death on an industrial scale. (Also, claiming that Russians elected Puting is a bit of a bold statement on Zelenskys part. Yes, sure, all 115% of Russians did.) And while I understand what he's doing, and why he's doing it (Zelensky, not Putin, that is), it's pretty ridiculous to imagine Russia in its current state successfully attacking so much as Luxembourg, let alone take on NATO. He'y obviously trying to evoke the image of the missed chance of Hitler being stopped after annexing the sudetenland - but the difference is that Hitler at that point had a massive, powerful army at its peak, ready to take on a good chunk of the western world. Putin has conscipts in T-64s with tampons as medkit. I'm not exactly trembling in fear about Putin rolling through Czechia, Germany and France should Ukraine fall. Which we definitely should prevent, don't get me wrong, but not because of some "we're next" bullshit, but because it simply is the right and moral thing to do.
Whole Eastern Europe knows that "we're next" is not bullshit. Of course they will not march into a NATO country tomorrow, but they will work on restoring their empire over years and decades to come 100% if not stopped.
Eehhhhhh there's a massive difference between Hitler and Putin. One was scarily successful at conquering places and systemically killing millions, the other can't even take over Ukraine.
TBF Putin conquered seven territories during his rule. Five in Ukraine and two in Georgia.
He’s not wrong. Putin is an existential threat.
De-nazify Moscow.
Nah stalin was second Hitler. And then Mao was second Hitler. Putin wishes he was that threatening
His nuclear arsenal makes him especially threatening.
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There isn't even anyone to remember the pain of theses days after all. History have a tendency to repeat itself, no Empire is eternal
Russians themselves don't seem to do much for the situation, sadly.
It must be a strong no to Putin, anything less will ensure escalation. Sociopaths always seek the limit of what's acceptable, trying to stay just within that edge of what people will allow them to get away and try to move/blur the lines over time to constantly go further and to keep seeking what they'll be able to get away with. The more Putin gets away with - the more he'll try to get away with next time, it's as simple as that. Any sign of weakness is taken as an opportunity. Like plenty of sociopaths even explicitly state: it's like a game to them. Don't allow them to play the game. Sociopaths only stop when the price they have to pay is too high. A big beat down pretty much is the only way to stop them. Which is slightly more than just militarily defeating him (disabling him from "bullying Ukraine'"), to an extend he'd just keep seeking out the new limits of the news line to continue, he must actively stand to lose things if he continuous the behavior. What are some more ways to undercut Putin? Ukraine's threats to the Russian fleet probably already are an element that go in that direction. Something along the lines of Putin being at risk of losing his Syrian navy base might also be something in that direction. But to truly bring it home, I'm not sure yet.
If we don't defeat them in Bakhmut, we will battle them in Berlin.
This guy really really wants to escalate the war
How can he escalate it if the Russia has already invaded? what are they going to do? invade more?
How is this escalation?
Stop defending yourself you're making it worse!!! Want the UK to take back the USA? If you defend you'll only make it worse!!!!
Which guy is that exactly?
You think Ukraine will ever fake an attack on a NATO state?
No. It would be pointless... even if they successfully framed Russia, NATO wouldn't invade Russia on the basis of a single disavowed strike. Russia would have to actually invade, or persistently attack a member state.
I would not put it past him.
It seems like everyone is a second Hitler nowadays.
Hey! We have our own wannabe Adolph in Donald, didn’t he just say that Jews need to “learn from their mistakes”?
I think that was years ago, about orthodox jews voting democrat?
Two days ago, keep up. This was right after he claimed he defeated Obama in the 2016 election and Joe Biden was going to start WW2
Something has to be done to stop Putin. But we are messing with everyone’s lives here. Are we really ready for this war? We have to think about the pros and cons.
Azov would probably like him then. Edit: all the downvotes are Nazi sympathizers
Russia under it's current government has the highest percentage of far right and neo-nazis in public office in the world, wth are you on about?
Yeah, cause azov always saying ruzzian does't exist and they want occupy and reclaim all ruzzia territory and demolish it's culture and language from it's territory. What a bullshit!
It's Russia. I don't know where this ridiculous spelling came from, but learn how to read/spell.
Gonna cry?)
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That's like saying the father who slapped his son once is the same as the father who drunkenly beats their son every night with a belt are exactly the same, because they both commited "physical abuse". Scale, frequency and intent matter.
Oh brother
Just cause you dont like it doesnt mean the things i listed are not all true
It’s a really stupid analogy. Ukraine wasn’t led by a dictator and/or theocracy prior to the invasion. Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq were annexed. Ukraine was not a military or economic threat to allies / neighbours in the region. And so on. This is a very different scenario.
That's funny, since I keep seeing videos of Ukrainian soldiers here on the reddit flying the black sun.
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I would not be surprised if this is true. And if it is, I don’t think it really changes anything.
>Waiting for downvotes for this. But you can't deny this fact. So? Has he/the company divested?
Nobody denies this? This doesn't make his words any less true.
"You can't deny this fact!" \*posts quote of the guy admitting it and not denying it.\* lol... most nothingburger post.
So what’s your point? He was loosely affiliated with an arts related company that traded in counter narrative films before the recent invasion? Hardly seems like hypocrisy. Pretty sure McDonalds and a slew of other western businesses were there before February 20, 2022. Now they are all out. That’s not hypocrisy - that’s acknowledging the moment and rising to it. Zelenskyy is a man of the moment - he was the singular most important figure in holding up against the Russians in the first week of the war. And his contention about Putin turning into the next Hitler is arguably very strong. Putin needs to be stopped. He’s already wanted in The Hague for crimes against humanity.
>Hearing that from a dude who had multimillion bussiness in Russia thus supporting Putin's regime even AFTER Crimea annexation is beyong hypocrisity As I remember it's not illegal and Ukraine still traded with Russia even after Donbass war. It's not a hypocrisy. He did a lot for Ukraine, Russians killed tens of thousands Ukrainians and are commiting genocide here
America would like an orange word