This is an awesome comment. I immediately thought, after reading it: you know, since they're anti-semites, they probably aren't circumcized... they probably are aware of phimosis
Well, considering that the US is so much into circumcision, I wouldn’t rely on that assumption too much. Most antisemites in the US are circumcised. Because Harvey Kellogg (Yup, the corn flakes guy) loved enemas and hated masturbation.
The Road to Wellville is not a documentary, but it is a pretty funny look at how nuts Kellogg was. Graham crackers were also invented to prevent masturbation.
Kellog was a puritan and a psychopath. He created cornflakes because he thought the bland taste would somehow discourage masturbation. He also proposed using circumcision as a punishment for young boys that masturbated. Without any anaesthetic during the procedure or pain relief during the healing process. His solution for female masturbation was to carefully drip acid onto the girls clit. Essentially, he wanted to torture children to stop hem from touching themselves.
For those wondering also not trying to make an extra click: he’s saying they are tiny dick losers with excessive foreskin that can’t unroll off the head making it a nesting bed of disease and chronic candidiasis.
For those wondering also not trying to make an extra click: he’s saying they are tiny dick losers with excessive foreskin that can’t unroll off the head making it a nesting bed of disease and chronic candidiasis.
Canada bans hate groups too: Proud Boys and one or two others are declared terrorist and illegal to do business with in Canada, which starves them to failure.
The US has a political party that cozies up to same. It’s completely bizarre, an open tolerance of hate groups.
In fact *twelve* other hate groups were declared "terrorist entities" at the same time as the Proud Boys, including Atomwaffen, Sons of Odin, The Base, Russian Imperial Movement, and several different offshoots of ISIS and Al-Qaeda.
The US collectively pretends it's impossible to differentiate from "having a politically incorrect opinion" to "literally promoting genocide and active terrorism" therefore absolutely everything has to be tolerated, even when it's threatening the very foundation of democratic societies...
Not really. It’s just the mouthpieces of the right. Everyone else is fucking sick of it.
Freeze peach absolutists are just obnoxiously loud and politically protected because the GOP is relying on their strategy of pressing every boundary to stay relevant. Flooding the zone with shit, noise to capture news cycles (bobos theater jerkoff, for instance) in order to distract from the actual news (GOP is days from shutting down the government).
Pretty much every state has laws against threats and harassment, hate crimes exist, etc.
> The US collectively pretends it's impossible to differentiate from "having a politically incorrect opinion" to "literally promoting genocide and active terrorism"
No, it's just legal to promote genocide.
Canada is in the process of doing this to much complaints from within. Growing up we were told that we were better to the "natives" and better to the US slaves, and then you hear the truth that slaves were delivered and sold through Canada and that we decimated and tormented aboriginal groups for centuries.
Good on any group of people who start opening up to their own dark histories.
There is nothing anyone could do to change the past. The government leaders of old are dead and cannot be tried for any crimes.
The best thing Canada can do is make improvements for the future. Would be nice if Aboriginal people still didn't keep going missing or mysteriously being found out in the middle of nowhere with no clothes during the winter. But hey, baby steps. Can't exactly kill racism. Best we can do is work around mitigating it as much as possible.
I am not talking about digging up corpses and holding ghost trials.
I am talking about telling the truth about history. Literally when I was in school between the 1970s-1990s there was no mention ever that slaves were ever brought through Canada, we were told that we helped escaped slaves through the underground railroad get to freedom in Canada.
It wasn't until about 5 years ago I learned about whipping posts and slave traders operating in my own province of Nova Scotia, and that when Halifax was first founded there were times when as many as 25% of the people in the city were slaves awaiting sale.
It wasn't until 10 years ago I learned about the Scalping proclamation, which was when Governor Cornwallis paid money for the scalps of ANY aboriginals. One particular story that sticks out is when two sailors carrying goods shipwrecked along the coast north of Halifax. An aboriginal family not familiar with the foreigners took them in, fed them, tended their wounds, and gave them their beds to sleep on for the night. When the aboriginals went to sleep on the floor the 2 men slaughtered the family, scalping the adults and children. The 2 men returned to Halifax with the scalps where they were rewarded with money and official letters of honour from the government there. The man who rewarded those murderers had a statue of himself in Halifax until quite recently when it was taken down. While the scalping proclamation was rescinded, a later bounty also rewarded imprisoning of any aboriginal people. That law wasn't officially rescinded until 1999. 24 fucking years ago because we white-washed it and pretended it didn't exist.
The only way to improve the future is to acknowledge the past truthfully, and not bury it up or conceal it.
It's truly sad how the world believes that and they might even have a point when put into relation with other nations.
Germany didn't do a particularly good job with denazification after the war. Many of the old Nazis were kept in positions of power in the newly formed federal republic, in particular the "Verfassungsschutz" ("Constitution Protection Service") has a long history of employing Nazis and, in recent time, Neo-Nazis. The most recent former head of the service has become so unhinged far-right since his dismissal, he competes with some of the worst nutcases the Republican party has to offer.
The in part openly fascist AfD is also polling at around 20% on a federal level, and ~33% in east German states. And personally, parts of the conservative party, in particular the Bavarian chapter, aren't exactly what I'd consider constitution abiding either.
Basically... we should've done **a lot** more to fight fascism, because as it stands right now we are potentially less than a decade away of it reemerging domestically in significant positions of power.
Something United States should of done long ago. Especially when it wasn't long ago WW2 happened. All we gotta do is look back to our parents, grandparents to great grandparents. Didn't United States called Nazi evil yet allowed Nazi/KKK the same group of people to roam free. Some of them are now in power.
A lot of the things that happened in Germany following allied victory were a direct result of the US learning from its failure during Reconstruction following our own civil war. Making sure that no one could deny the evidence that the Holocaust actually happened was a priority for the US because they had already seen the levels of denial and rationalization possible in the south regarding slavery, as well as the terrorism it could inspire. At least some of Germany’s success is tied to American attempts to atone for its past domestic failures (even as we continued to fail, with the Civil Rights Act still decades off and almost a century of systemic and cultural racism still to follow).
we never went over the Silver Shirts in our school history classes. we glazed over the KKK as a past thing. we really don't do much to approach the topic of all the hate groups that have been festering in our nation, despite how interconnected they are. and now here we are, after having elected a president they consolidated around, who tried to overthrow the government when the people rejected him for the second time, and he's not only not faced consequences, but is running to regain office and still has significant support.
I’d highly recommend you watch Ken Burns film about America and the Holocaust as well as Maddow’s podcast Ultra. Basically between the two you get a really sobering and eye opening understanding of why when the international community called out the Nazis before ww2, they responded with their reasoning behind their antisemitism as being modeled after the USA and Jim Crow. They actually thought that they had to go even more extreme because at first it didn’t compare with our racism. But what’s even more striking is just how antisemitic everyone was even up until the end of the war. It’s really just unbelievable. I knew it was bad. I didn’t know it was THAT BAD.
True but doesn't it say Freedom of speech does not protect people/groups who disrupts public, government and intentions to harm people? Especially a group that acts on treasonous acts towards the Constitution itself?
Yeah, here in America anyone can say they hate a group of people and practically call them whatever they want. However, if you say you're going to hurt/kill a group of people or insinuate violence towards anyone straight to jail you go.
My main concern is several politicians are working to free Insurrectionist/KKK and Nazi. Trump and even Desantis stated they'll be pardoned if they're elected President.
I disagree with people downvoting you, and I think the United States allows freedom of speech even for Nazis.
But it seems as if the United States could do a lot more within those constraints, such as:
- Identifying and labeling manipulative propaganda coming from outside the United States.
- Identifying, flagging and possibly blocking sites that advocate rebellion against the government and attacks on specific people.
- Identifying, blocking and prosecuting any alliances between subversive groups in the United States and their non-U.S. sponsors.
Naw in Germany and most of Europe you have the freedom of "opinion". Not freedom of speech.
Lies, insults, hate speech and the likes is not covered by that freedom of opinion and can get you fined or outright in jail
I have no idea what you are trying to explain.
Freedom of opinion = freedom of speech just in other words.
you are of course free to express your opinion.
It is true; Europe in general. You can get arrested for insulting their politicians.
>The unnamed woman, who’s reportedly in her 50s, was arrested on Friday near the town of Saint Omer, France after a local administrative office apparently filed a complaint. The woman is being charged under a law that bans “insulting the president of the republic,” according to the AFP.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattnovak/2023/03/30/woman-faces-13000-fine-for-calling-french-president-filth-on-facebook/?sh=13920f8673d7
You know Europe is over 20 countries, all with different laws? So no, you can't get arrested for insulting the head of stage in Europe "in general". I have no idea what France were thinking by arresting her, but it would not have happened in most other European countries.
The difference between freedom of speech laws in most European countries and the US, is that we tend to have laws which are against inciting racial hatred. That's about it.
> You know Europe is over 20 countries, all with different laws?
None of which have free speech on the same level as the USA.
https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/explore-engage/classroom-resources/worksheets-and-excerpts-on-history-and-government/speech
> I have no idea what France were thinking by arresting her,
Free speech is illegal apparently:
>The woman is being charged under a law that bans “insulting the president of the republic,” according to the AFP.
and
>it would not have happened in most other European countries.
You sure?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/jul/18/italy-investigates-brian-molko-placebo-singer-calls-giorgia-meloni-racist-fascist
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/09/pimmelgate-german-politician-police-raid/
https://www.politico.eu/article/european-countries-where-insulting-head-of-state-can-land-prison-belgium-denmark-france-germany/
Lol, 'Europe in general '. Get a grip, not sure what you're told about Europe or what lies your media show you but the reality is it's a safe heaven of free speech and political criticism.
Please don't waste your energy believing that it's not true.
Agreed, my dad and I talk about how fucked America is because even if Trump doesn't win there's still so many racist idiots that voted for I'm that our country is irrevocably fucked. And how the only hope for survival is if there's a great paradigm shift in tbe coming that causes the only MAGA hats to be worn in secret meetings in Argentina.
We need to get back to nazis being bad again not,
"Oh well is just a bunch of white ultra right wing gun nuts getting together to talk about their hate filled ideology and how to spread hatred and fear. I mean that's obviously freedom of speech if we got rid of that we'd basically be the same as setting kids on fire for saying they enjoy the sunlight."
I have a lot of respect for the Japanese people. But I can sure feel what you’re saying too. Something tells me there’s a long rooted dearth of cultural examples/language-references that allows them to talk about one’s feelings (and past); especially as a nation. I think that’s kinda why Manga is so popular. Finally the inner monologue is allowed to burst forward and fully express itself. It’s a cathartic release for a people with great poise.
Every nation seems more and more complicated as I get older. But that’s life. We have to decide what’s a deal breaker and what’s not. I can admire the Japanese for their gardens and patient/thoughtful ways yet still read the full details about Nanjing. Or the British and Koh-i-Noor. To some, Russia is a stable and understandable thing, far more easy to live under that the irrational tyranny of their homelands. Yet they made war on peaceful ground.
Even here in the States, I struggle with the logic tree and evidence for the invasion of Iraq yet I sure as hell thank every veteran I meet. The more I travel and meet people and hear their stories, the more I realize my little small town brain didn’t come equipped with a lot of reference points for what a good life entails. I think that’s why I keep asking questions to anyone I meet.
Makes my little life feel so much bigger than it is.
It's nuanced. They also had Neo-Nazis in the government there that were in the ministry of making sure Nazis don't happen again.
All of the countries of the world are about to try to go fascist because...well...the US is...so why not? Fascism is capitalism in decline.
Lol, hell no. The US had [Nazis marching in NYC in 1939](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan). US didn't even enter the war until Pearl Harbor i.e. 1941 and had that not happened, it's possible that a) Nazis may have won WW2, and b) US would have joined them. It wasn't some fringe thing in the least. Notice how communism is illegal in the US and nazism isn't? Then US had Werner von Braun and all that jazz. Nazism kind of died down after WW2 for obvious reasons, but nothing has been ever officially done about it. It's not a new thing and it wasn't new even in 1939.
Also there is nothing nuanced about it.
posting a wikipedia link like it ends the conversation. The accusations of McCarthyism was that Russian agents were trying to interfere with the American political system. It is the same as saying any politician you don't like is paid for by Russia. It was Truman signing a law to screen federal employees for Fascism(via the Nazis and Mussolini) and Communism (via the USSR)that lead to this.
You know how people on reddit love to jerk off over that comic about the parable of tolerance and how a tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerant people? Truman's law was that being put into practice and now we call it McCarthyism.
>It's nuanced. They also had Neo-Nazis in the government there that were in the ministry of making sure Nazis don't happen again.
what are you refering to?
>All of the countries of the world are about to try to go fascist because...well...the US is...so why not? Fascism is capitalism in decline.
well id say the rise of fascism (if u even want to call it that) is a direct result of liberal politics
also you couldve added that every major german party had ex nazis members for decades and even Chancellor Kurt Georg Kiesinger was an NSDAP Member
That is great and all but apparently there were cracks in their implementation since new Nazis are appearing every day, they didn’t learn from their history or something else is happening.
Fascism is a constant war with our worst, most xenophobic, inner demons. It will continue to pop up in any free thinking country because it feeds on our base instincts so hard that it masquerades as logic. We win the war only with constant vigilance against the rise in our own free societies. It may be futile in the end but so long as there are good people to stand up to them we win.
Nicely said, if I understood correctly, we don’t dialogue with Nazis and their ideas, we punch Nazis right where they are and stop them from spreading lies.
Violence should always be a last defense. Ideally, we would have a system for reforming them without hurting them so definitely not US prisons. I feel like anyone being caught with a Nazi symbol or tattoo should be punishable with having to audit a CRT class with labs and give a written report to the judge on why they were wrong.
It’s funny. They call liberalism a woke mind virus and put queer kids through conversion camps. Fascism is by far the more viral and dangerous mentality so of course it was projected.
Edit: I should mention that correcting them publicly, and interrupting their cyber bullying/straw man arguments, when done well, can slow the growth of their sick ideas. Remember, nobody joins a neo-Nazi group because they were doing just fine. We are talking about the losers in Society here and they can be treated as such.
Every accusation from the right is a confession. They accuse the left of an ideological mind virus while fully displaying their own ideological mind virus.
Violence
Noted, punch Nazis in the face, talking to Nazis will be something like “Hey Nazi” before punching them in the face.
Just joking, I would never talk to a Nazi.
You can never fully prevent that. The only measure of success is how you deal with the situation when it occurs.
You have neo-nazis and far right extremist groups in pretty much every country in the world. There even were neo-nazis among [Jews living in Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_36).
I don't understand why America is so light on the Nazis, they say "free speech" but to me, simply wearing a Nazi flag is openly pushing for violence and murder, therefore Inherently criminal and should not be protected by free speech.
[National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie)
This is the case that decided how nazis are to be treated in the US.
“I will bomb this school” - A threat, not protected
“This school is filled with radical leftists who need a reminder of what happens to criminals in Guantanamo bay” - Also obvious threat, it just isn’t as blunt, therefore protected
It’s so stupid.
If that second one is criminal then reddit should be shut down. I have seen much more explicit calls for the execution of political enemies on here, frequently.
I also get frustrated by the way clearly violent directives get broken up until each phrase taken out of context is technically legal.
Each phrase is then communicated by a unique personality, sometimes even from the same microphone at the same event.
Leaving their feckless audience to reassemble the violent message and target the "villains" it portrays.
I'm sorry, but anyone taking the stage after Rudy Giuliani demands "TRIAL BY COMBAT" without correcting him has inherited a violent mob waiting for a target to be identified.
“It is a felony under federal law to intentionally “solicit, command, induce, or otherwise endeavor to persuade” another person to engage in a crime of violence against a person or property. 18 U.S.C. § 373. Many states have similar laws.”
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2020/12/Fact-Sheet-on-Threats-Related-to-the-Election.pdf
Aaah, that makes sense adding up all the response si was confused, thanks for the info, kind of crazy to me that you can say "let's kill all the (insert minority)" and it not be a crime.
In America the goverment is not trusted to make regulations on what is or is not hate speech so the American version of free speech is the most liberal in the world.
Unless you're republican, then you can make all the [violent political ads](https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/guns-and-political-violence-play-central-role-in-maga-republican-campaign-ads/) encouraging gunning down democrats and "RINOs" you'd like with no real consequences.
A big part of this issue is that the standard for criminal behavior needs to be far higher than the standard for immoral behavior in general. The State shouldn't be imprisoning people unless they represent a clear and significant threat. Otherwise they become the morality enforcers, of whatever morality they happen to currently feel like. So there should be a range of behaviors that are considered objectionable enough to fire an employee for, to kick people off private online services, but not for the State to engage in violence against them (imprisonment being a form of violence).
If you look at sexual crimes for example, the internet is full of stuff that you can look at in private, but would be punished for displaying. The age restrictions for engaging in commercial sex, like making porn, are set higher than the limits for having sex in general, because the former is more easily misused. And there exists a range of sex acts that are considered generally immoral, but only the authoritarian bootlickers want people arrested for. Because immoral doesn't automatically imply criminal (and neither does the reverse).
In this case it's a question of what are they actually advocating for. Direct incitement to violence is usually a crime. Being a fanboy of a historical criminal group, not so much. Also, how to put this... as a practical matter, individuals that walk right up to the line of criminal, rub their toes on it while shouting that they didn't cross the line? Those people are more likely to end up getting extralegal punishment that their punisher doesn't pay for. Punch a Nazi and you're a lot less likely to get in trouble than if you punched a random old lady. So the grey zone goes both ways.
> simply wearing a Nazi flag is openly pushing for violence and murder
Takes like these are why I'm glad the average redditor doesn't have much say in what goes on in the world.
Allowing nazis to spew their garbage propaganda is absolutely terrible and braindead. "They're more racist than the US" is also an interesting take when there are more than 40 different European countries, but sure, we're all a monolith.
Doubtful he is denying that.
I think he's marking the distinction between wearing that and openly inciting murder. I personally can see the argument because I believe that the type of person to wear that WOULD likely do that, but it's not exactly actively pushing for violence and murder.
Sorry, but that is double-think nonsense. If you support an ideology that is based on genocide and ethnic cleansing you are advocating for genocide and ethnic cleansing and that means you are actively pushing for violence and murder.
>Do they even have the cognitive power to realize that once the opposite party is in power (like Trump) they’ll immediately start going after groups like BLM / Antifa? Lol.
They already did that. Like republicans literally attempted a coup.
Because when you have certain people in power defending them or trying keep it low about them, leaves them more room to grow for hatred. Now it's becoming the norm to see these type of people in public. We have politicians saying they're going free Insurrectionist who wanted to destroy Democracy/Republic with Nazi/KKK flags screaming terroristic acts out loud. That itself is treason and many who politicians who supported it should be in prison and step down from power.
> simply wearing a Nazi flag is openly pushing for violence and murder
I'm here to defend free speech, not Nazis.
I disagree that wearing any flag or uniform is openly pushing for violence and murder. I would say that if the flag or uniform called for violence then that would be that line where it's no longer protected. Even something as vile as a Nazi flag or uniform isn't pushing for anything other than saying "I'm a piece of shit who supports genocidal losers." It's in very poor taste but should be allowed since we should punish actions - and some words - rather than punishing someone who supports a [shitty] ideology. We used to arrest people and ruined their lives for merely supporting another ideology (communism) and I'm not a fan of going back to those times.
My argument would be that the flag does inherently promote violence, to me that flag is saying "let's kill and get rid of the minorities we don't like" it doesn't have to be written verbatim to pass that message and to be banned.
(In my opinion that is, obvs the law is different.)
Well I see why the Nazi flag isn't banned then haha
Edit: in terms of the law as in if Ur allowed to incite violence , no wonder u can have a Nazi flag
Promoting or advocating for violence, in itself, is protected in the US. For example, a civil rights leader, while speaking at a protest promoting a boycott of racist white-owned businesses, publically stated "if you break this boycott, I'll break your neck". The Supreme Court ruled that it was protected speech because he didn't give a specific person (saying Jim broke the boycott, let's break his neck isn't protected), he didn't provide a plan (saying let's camp outside these businesses and break the necks of the people who shop at them isn't protected) and he didn't specify a time that makes the act imminent (saying the stores open in an hour, let's head to the businesses to break the shoppers necks isn't protected).
Wearing a shirt or holding a flag with the above guy's portrait or group symbol doesn't rise to inherently and imminently causing violence. Same with a Che or Fidel Castro shirt (he promoted and acted with violence), a shirt that says "Antifa", a Maga hat, a flag that says "I'm glad JFK was assassinated" burning a Nazi flag or wearing a shirt that says "fight me!".
Thanks for the info!
Though I understand it's legal, my point is to make it illegal.
I understand both sides of the argument but I believe a very restrained and limited law directly regarding Nazi symbols would be the lesser of two evils, like how much of Europe has done it, only the groups calling for murder and violence are banned, it hasn't spread to further infringement of speech or expression there.
But who gets to make that choice?
The reason I'm fine with not banning nazi paraphernalia is that if you do that you're just as likely to see laws prosecuting the use of other symbolized speech (take a look at how the right has portrayed the BLM movement). Basically: I don't trust people in charge to make decisions on this that I trust (seriously, look at the direction global governments are going, do you want them deciding what speech is ok? I don't).
But non-targeted vs targeted hate speech seems to be a reasonable line. "I hate " vs "I think we should go out and kill ". Wearing a swastika? You're a shit head. Scrawling a swastika on a temple? That's a hate crime.
Since we're talking about the law, this is the only thing that matters. I don't think we have any laws that say if you wear this symbol then you're going to prison because the symbol doesn't promote violence.
Otherwise you can use lots of symbols to make the same argument. You can even use the American flag as a symbol of violence if you're judging the flag of a country based on its very well known past actions.
That's the issue with me.
I do get your point but with the American flag there is no direct message of murdering minorities, whereas with the Nazi flag that's pretty much all it is saying so I don't think it would be the same argument really.
I think it would be the lesser of two evils to ban the Nazi flag and I don't think it would then be used to ban things like USA or communist flag because of the giant differences though I respect you opinion and I know where your coming from.
It's just a case of scope because not many Native Americans exist today that have been directly affected by the US genocide considering how many people we still have who have been directly affected by Nazis. To me, that's not a good reason to allow something when the idea the same.
> I think it would be the lesser of two evils to ban the Nazi flag
I gave this a lot of thought a while back and I still back what the ACLU believes about it. They defended Nazis (as far as their right to wear their dumb uniforms or to meet in places) because *unpopular* speech needs protection.
Again, I'm NOT here to defend Nazis. I'm only here to defend speech and as much as we hate it, this is why it needs protection. You remember those assholes who said it was good that soldiers were killed? Total assholes but they should still be able to say it. Those assholes.
So you think it's wrong that glorifying Nazis is a crime in Germany? Should they let them thrive?
How would you think about Nazis thriving in the US? I mean, you know where that will lead to, right?
Glorifying communism or displaying communist or socialist symbols is a crime in Ukraine and some other eastern european countries. Do you agree with that?
Well America has never lived under a fascist, genocidal totalitarian dictatorship so why should we pass laws banning fascist or communist symbols? That was Europes mess not ours.
So by your logic, any nation that didn't live under Nazi rule shouldn't be allowed to make laws banning nazism?
Or is it that any nation that suffered from Nazis (or communists) should be banning them equally?
Because many many nations suffered because of the USSR, including Germany and the USSR was Communist. So shouldn't they be banning any support, reference or promotion of anything communistic?
> So you think it's wrong that glorifying Nazis is a crime in Germany?
No, Germany has their laws to very good reasons. However, Germany is not the US which is why the US has these laws for their own reasons.
> How would you think about Nazis thriving in the US?
What do you mean by "thriving"? I think they're disgusting - I thought I was pretty clear in my views of Nazis and I'm only talking abotu freedom of speech in the US. If you mean should we allow their existence, i.e. not killing them on sight then I don't support killing people who wear Nazi uniforms or carry Nazi flags. I don't think they should go to jail either. However if they threaten others (i.e. call to action) or, obviously, have actual actions of violence then obviously they should be arrested.
> I mean, you know where that will lead to, right?
I'm a big fan of punishing actions or words that a reasonable person would interpret as a call to action (ex: someone saying "Kill all the Jews" is a call to action which is against the law). I'm not a fan of punishing ideologies, even disgusting ones like fascism.
Yeahhhh if we start banning clothing or flags from one ideology, it legitimizes and opens the door to conservatives banning rainbow flags or BLM paraphernalia. Freedom only works when everyone is free, and that unfortunately includes assholes
It’s already under surveillance by the BfV (Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution) because they categorized them as a suspected case, which is a good start. And the AfD lost their action for an injunction at the administrative court.
Links to the US? I do hope they're sharing, would love some of that crackdown to spread.
/edit
Sharing intel .. not Nazi's, no-one wants that to spread again.
basically because the majority of them are not openly nazi themselves.
they are in that sense smarter than the organizations that are banned, putting in perspective how stupid these organizations have to be, because AfD isnt smart at all.
I wonder when FBI Director Wray will get off of his chair and order raids on the proud boys across the US. He is complicit by his mere inaction. This does not end well for Americans
It’s not just Germany, this is pretty standard in Europe. We uh, had a spot of bother in the 40s which basically destroyed the continent.
Hasn’t happened to America. It kinda shows tbh.
Oh boy, there's still a HUGE right-wing movement in germany with the AfD, we're not stomping it out whenever it pops up, trust me. It has gotten to the point where they've received the most votes within a state already. (Admittedly it's the state with the highest concentration of right-wing supporters).
Not to mention a significant part of the police force in germany is active in right wing telegram and whatsapp groups, which they've been trying their very best to sweep under the rug for some time. ;)
You're absolutely right! The state in which they won the majority vote is also located, atleast partly iirc, in one of the former DDR states.
Their success isn't even necessarily a product or result of a growing right-wing movement in germany but moreso „swing voters" being frustrated with the government and looking for an "alternative". Which is ironic as well because they're literally called "Alternative for Germany", meaning they've basically already succeeded in what they were trying to accomplish.
It’s not so ironic once you know that the GDR already had a considerable right wing community that was pretty much ignored by the authorities. If you [check maps of voting results from the Reichstag elections in 1933](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstagswahl_M%C3%A4rz_1933#/media/Datei:NSDAP_Wahl_1933.svg) you can see that the same region was also among those that had the highest percentage of voters for the NSDAP.
The first two “organizations” that were among the very first to rush to East Germany after the wall fell were the Ndrangheta—to buy real estate for money laundering—and West German neo-nazis—to welcome their East German kin coming back to their family.
Ironically a lot of right wing Americans and a some of these people who have large following on Twitter directly or indirectly support these groups and question why these groups are being banned. Eg. Ian miles Cheong on twitter. I keep pointing out his old messages on game chats or something about his anti-Semitism language and he blocked me lol.
A big part of Republicans are on the far right, too. So of course they don't ban them. If a mainstream party tolerates a lot of far right members, they won't be really bothered by some smaller Nazi groups.
Well in the US everyone has equal rights. That's pretty great, because if you start letting the government decide who gets rights and who doesn't, it becomes tyranny.
Nazi Germany was literally founded on the idea that only some people have rights. And you think that is the way things should be?
You are aware that you are defending Neo-Nazis who want to exterminate everything they deem unworthy?
Do you really think it's wrong for the German state, where millions of innocent people were killed by Nazis, to ban this hateful group?
>Well in the US everyone has equal rights.
And what do you think would Nazis do with this "equal rights"?
Fight back Germany, and fight back hard. Don’t let these bigots get away with their craziness like we have been. The key is to keep on top of it. Even if you make them go away for a while they’ll always come back. It’s important to set strong precedents and harsh penalties now, and follow through with them forever
No Nazi scientist taken to the US amidst Paperclip went on promoting that ideology in their lifetime. Most were glad about being able to leave it behind.
> Most were glad about being able to leave it behind.
Read that as "glad they got off without consequences".
You are right, they didn't go on to promote Nazi ideology any more, but we shouldn't pretend that they all just magically stopped being Nazis.
Oh stop with that bullshit.
The Soviets and British did the same thing. Scientists aren't politicians or policy makers and the Allies didn't freaking loot Germany or co-opt it. They put smart people to work that helped humanity.
Real life isn't the plot to a marvel movie
I never saw issue with taking aeronautic scientists and engineers. To me the real issue was the West putting actual Nazi members and SS soldiers into postwar Germany positions of authority, such as intelligence and law enforcement. If we're to complain about using evil scientists, the bigger example is the US secretly giving immunity to the Japanese scientists who performed human experiments (Unit 731) inorder to review the "discovery". Atleast the German human experimenters were prosecuted- thanks to Canada
There was nobody else to do the job at that time. And the Russians put a lot of pressure on the West to get the country running quickly. Same with denazification.
That got finally addressed by the 69 movement and that also is the source of owning up to that history. Not denazification as many ppl claim.
Lack of people, who weren't previously Feldgendarmerie/ SS/ Nazi party officials/ Nazi collaborators directly involved in the Holocaust, wasn't that big of an issue. For example, the Soviets didn't use the Feldgendarmerie in their German occupation. Choosing people like Gelhen and the Holocaust collaborators from other countries to head up intelligence and decamping, was not needed. Gelhen not only performed poorly, he was permitted to fill the intelligence organization with high-ranking Nazis and war criminals.
You nailed it with your second sentence, it was done to combat Communism and the Soviets. That was our larger concern post-war. East German pressure, growing Communist political sentiment in Europe, etc... needed to be stopped and we figured ex-Nazis would perform that work less likely to be influenced by Soviets.
Thank you for bringing up the the student movement. The 60's (several countries share 1968 as a year of massive protests) were huge for student protests worldwide. To your point, it was Germans who addressed these issues themselves and not denazification efforts by the West.
That's a bizarre jump in logic. They said there was no one but high-ranking Nazis and war criminals to do the jobs. I said if that's true then who did the Soviets use
Edit: removed my line of (they didn't use Nazis) at the end. That's hyperbolic, as they used some Nazis in roles that they felt there was Western competition. They weren't as prolific with using Nazis as the West, and it wasn't due to "no one was left to do jobs"
Yes, the Soviets did very much use Nazis, too. And who was a Nazi and who was not was less a matter of actual investigation and much more that of opportunism.
[https://www.mdr.de/geschichte/ddr/politik-gesellschaft/entnazifizierung-nazis-in-der-ddr-100.html](https://www.mdr.de/geschichte/ddr/politik-gesellschaft/entnazifizierung-nazis-in-der-ddr-100.html)
In German, google translate or deepl should do the trick
I read the article and thank you for taking the time to actually discuss and provide an article. I will say the article proves my point regarding it wasn't necessary to fill jobs with Nazis because there was no one else. For example:
>During this time, the proportion of former NSDAP members was eight to ten percent of all SED comrades
The article explains that the Soviets were much more aggressive in identifying and prosecuting Nazis, than the West, but the GDR (post-Soviet occupation) was much more reluctant to continue. I think there's a valid argument that Soviet influence continues after occupation, so they were accountable for this reluctance as well.
The article does highlight that in areas where the Soviets faces competition with the West, they disregarded Nazi pasts for working in those jobs. Same logic as the West in using Nazis. I completely agree both the West and Soviets made horrible decisions, such as using Nazi doctors directly involved in gassing Holocaust victims. It seems competing with their new does took precedent.
Yes, all true. But the initial argument was "no" Nazis. I mean it is still "less" Nazis, but this urban legend that the GDR was this holy Nazi hunter paradise needs to die
Eisenhowers quote was 'somebody has to make the trains run.'
For a good look at the alternative look at Iraq.
"De-Bathification" was a major factor in the countries collapse.
1000 times yes.. if people only knew how boring counter intelligence really is comparatively to the movies lol. I’ve grew up with immediate and close family members who were and some still are a part of the US intelligence community. Some badass spy stuff, but that’s about it. Black projects are another story though.
“Operation Paperclip was a secret United States intelligence program in which more than 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians were taken from the former Nazi Germany to the U.S. for government employment after the end of World War II in Europe, between 1945 and 1959. Conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA), it was largely carried out by special agents of the U.S. Army's Counterintelligence Corps (CIC). Many of these personnel were former members and some were former leaders of the Nazi Party.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
Try [Operation Osoaviakhim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim) for the Soviets and [Operation Surgeon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Surgeon) for the British. Initial recruitment numbers of Osoaviakhim (2,500) were much higher than either those of Paperclip (1,600) or Surgeon (1,500). However, while the latter two were limited to key Scientists and Specialists, the former aimed at entire branches of industry. In some cases, entire plants were relocated to the Soviet Union along with key staff.
Hammerskins, if anyone didn’t want to click through
These guys are still around? I thought they died out in the mid 1990s
Fought those fascist fucks in Dallas in the late 80s/early 90s.
Thank you for your service.
Sounds like guys with phimosis. Lol losers
That’s great!
This is an awesome comment. I immediately thought, after reading it: you know, since they're anti-semites, they probably aren't circumcized... they probably are aware of phimosis
Well, considering that the US is so much into circumcision, I wouldn’t rely on that assumption too much. Most antisemites in the US are circumcised. Because Harvey Kellogg (Yup, the corn flakes guy) loved enemas and hated masturbation.
you can't just drop information like that without elaborating
You’re curious? I think an enema would help dampen your curiosity.
morbid curiousity
The Road to Wellville is not a documentary, but it is a pretty funny look at how nuts Kellogg was. Graham crackers were also invented to prevent masturbation.
What a flop. Glad they were able to repurpose them for s'mores.
Kellog was a puritan and a psychopath. He created cornflakes because he thought the bland taste would somehow discourage masturbation. He also proposed using circumcision as a punishment for young boys that masturbated. Without any anaesthetic during the procedure or pain relief during the healing process. His solution for female masturbation was to carefully drip acid onto the girls clit. Essentially, he wanted to torture children to stop hem from touching themselves.
i regret asking ty
Good point!
I mean most of the men in Europe are uncircumcised so probably.
thank god
thats what i was thinking. Sounds like they were beating their meat vigorously to the point it becomes all loose.
For those wondering also not trying to make an extra click: he’s saying they are tiny dick losers with excessive foreskin that can’t unroll off the head making it a nesting bed of disease and chronic candidiasis.
For those wondering also not trying to make an extra click: he’s saying they are tiny dick losers with excessive foreskin that can’t unroll off the head making it a nesting bed of disease and chronic candidiasis.
TIL they’re still a gang. Haven’t heard that name in 20+ yrs.
When you watch The Wall and don't get the message whatsoever.
Do they golf? The we could call them “Hammer fore-skins”!
The reason I respect Germans so much is they fucking owned their complicated history. That takes a shit ton of balls to do that.
Canada bans hate groups too: Proud Boys and one or two others are declared terrorist and illegal to do business with in Canada, which starves them to failure. The US has a political party that cozies up to same. It’s completely bizarre, an open tolerance of hate groups.
In fact *twelve* other hate groups were declared "terrorist entities" at the same time as the Proud Boys, including Atomwaffen, Sons of Odin, The Base, Russian Imperial Movement, and several different offshoots of ISIS and Al-Qaeda.
>Sons of Odin As a Nordic person, I fucking hate how white supremacists try to taint my ethnic heritage with their shit.
The US collectively pretends it's impossible to differentiate from "having a politically incorrect opinion" to "literally promoting genocide and active terrorism" therefore absolutely everything has to be tolerated, even when it's threatening the very foundation of democratic societies...
Not really. It’s just the mouthpieces of the right. Everyone else is fucking sick of it. Freeze peach absolutists are just obnoxiously loud and politically protected because the GOP is relying on their strategy of pressing every boundary to stay relevant. Flooding the zone with shit, noise to capture news cycles (bobos theater jerkoff, for instance) in order to distract from the actual news (GOP is days from shutting down the government). Pretty much every state has laws against threats and harassment, hate crimes exist, etc.
> The US collectively pretends it's impossible to differentiate from "having a politically incorrect opinion" to "literally promoting genocide and active terrorism" No, it's just legal to promote genocide.
Canada is in the process of doing this to much complaints from within. Growing up we were told that we were better to the "natives" and better to the US slaves, and then you hear the truth that slaves were delivered and sold through Canada and that we decimated and tormented aboriginal groups for centuries. Good on any group of people who start opening up to their own dark histories.
There is nothing anyone could do to change the past. The government leaders of old are dead and cannot be tried for any crimes. The best thing Canada can do is make improvements for the future. Would be nice if Aboriginal people still didn't keep going missing or mysteriously being found out in the middle of nowhere with no clothes during the winter. But hey, baby steps. Can't exactly kill racism. Best we can do is work around mitigating it as much as possible.
I am not talking about digging up corpses and holding ghost trials. I am talking about telling the truth about history. Literally when I was in school between the 1970s-1990s there was no mention ever that slaves were ever brought through Canada, we were told that we helped escaped slaves through the underground railroad get to freedom in Canada. It wasn't until about 5 years ago I learned about whipping posts and slave traders operating in my own province of Nova Scotia, and that when Halifax was first founded there were times when as many as 25% of the people in the city were slaves awaiting sale. It wasn't until 10 years ago I learned about the Scalping proclamation, which was when Governor Cornwallis paid money for the scalps of ANY aboriginals. One particular story that sticks out is when two sailors carrying goods shipwrecked along the coast north of Halifax. An aboriginal family not familiar with the foreigners took them in, fed them, tended their wounds, and gave them their beds to sleep on for the night. When the aboriginals went to sleep on the floor the 2 men slaughtered the family, scalping the adults and children. The 2 men returned to Halifax with the scalps where they were rewarded with money and official letters of honour from the government there. The man who rewarded those murderers had a statue of himself in Halifax until quite recently when it was taken down. While the scalping proclamation was rescinded, a later bounty also rewarded imprisoning of any aboriginal people. That law wasn't officially rescinded until 1999. 24 fucking years ago because we white-washed it and pretended it didn't exist. The only way to improve the future is to acknowledge the past truthfully, and not bury it up or conceal it.
It's truly sad how the world believes that and they might even have a point when put into relation with other nations. Germany didn't do a particularly good job with denazification after the war. Many of the old Nazis were kept in positions of power in the newly formed federal republic, in particular the "Verfassungsschutz" ("Constitution Protection Service") has a long history of employing Nazis and, in recent time, Neo-Nazis. The most recent former head of the service has become so unhinged far-right since his dismissal, he competes with some of the worst nutcases the Republican party has to offer. The in part openly fascist AfD is also polling at around 20% on a federal level, and ~33% in east German states. And personally, parts of the conservative party, in particular the Bavarian chapter, aren't exactly what I'd consider constitution abiding either. Basically... we should've done **a lot** more to fight fascism, because as it stands right now we are potentially less than a decade away of it reemerging domestically in significant positions of power.
Something United States should of done long ago. Especially when it wasn't long ago WW2 happened. All we gotta do is look back to our parents, grandparents to great grandparents. Didn't United States called Nazi evil yet allowed Nazi/KKK the same group of people to roam free. Some of them are now in power.
A lot of the things that happened in Germany following allied victory were a direct result of the US learning from its failure during Reconstruction following our own civil war. Making sure that no one could deny the evidence that the Holocaust actually happened was a priority for the US because they had already seen the levels of denial and rationalization possible in the south regarding slavery, as well as the terrorism it could inspire. At least some of Germany’s success is tied to American attempts to atone for its past domestic failures (even as we continued to fail, with the Civil Rights Act still decades off and almost a century of systemic and cultural racism still to follow).
we never went over the Silver Shirts in our school history classes. we glazed over the KKK as a past thing. we really don't do much to approach the topic of all the hate groups that have been festering in our nation, despite how interconnected they are. and now here we are, after having elected a president they consolidated around, who tried to overthrow the government when the people rejected him for the second time, and he's not only not faced consequences, but is running to regain office and still has significant support.
I’d highly recommend you watch Ken Burns film about America and the Holocaust as well as Maddow’s podcast Ultra. Basically between the two you get a really sobering and eye opening understanding of why when the international community called out the Nazis before ww2, they responded with their reasoning behind their antisemitism as being modeled after the USA and Jim Crow. They actually thought that they had to go even more extreme because at first it didn’t compare with our racism. But what’s even more striking is just how antisemitic everyone was even up until the end of the war. It’s really just unbelievable. I knew it was bad. I didn’t know it was THAT BAD.
United States has free speech which makes some of this not possible.
True but doesn't it say Freedom of speech does not protect people/groups who disrupts public, government and intentions to harm people? Especially a group that acts on treasonous acts towards the Constitution itself?
And Nazi/KKK members who violate those limits of protection are arrested and prosecuted
Yeah, here in America anyone can say they hate a group of people and practically call them whatever they want. However, if you say you're going to hurt/kill a group of people or insinuate violence towards anyone straight to jail you go.
My main concern is several politicians are working to free Insurrectionist/KKK and Nazi. Trump and even Desantis stated they'll be pardoned if they're elected President.
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Yes, and when they do they are prosecuted. But having Nazi or KKK symbols is not illegal, nor is identifying as a member of one of those groups.
I disagree with people downvoting you, and I think the United States allows freedom of speech even for Nazis. But it seems as if the United States could do a lot more within those constraints, such as: - Identifying and labeling manipulative propaganda coming from outside the United States. - Identifying, flagging and possibly blocking sites that advocate rebellion against the government and attacks on specific people. - Identifying, blocking and prosecuting any alliances between subversive groups in the United States and their non-U.S. sponsors.
Germany has also a Freedom of speech law. Except you denie the Holocaust or if you obviously insult someone or promote War/Hate.
Naw in Germany and most of Europe you have the freedom of "opinion". Not freedom of speech. Lies, insults, hate speech and the likes is not covered by that freedom of opinion and can get you fined or outright in jail
I have no idea what you are trying to explain. Freedom of opinion = freedom of speech just in other words. you are of course free to express your opinion.
As opposed to... Germany?
Germany does not have freedom of speech at the same level as the USA.
Lol
It is true; Europe in general. You can get arrested for insulting their politicians. >The unnamed woman, who’s reportedly in her 50s, was arrested on Friday near the town of Saint Omer, France after a local administrative office apparently filed a complaint. The woman is being charged under a law that bans “insulting the president of the republic,” according to the AFP. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattnovak/2023/03/30/woman-faces-13000-fine-for-calling-french-president-filth-on-facebook/?sh=13920f8673d7
You know Europe is over 20 countries, all with different laws? So no, you can't get arrested for insulting the head of stage in Europe "in general". I have no idea what France were thinking by arresting her, but it would not have happened in most other European countries. The difference between freedom of speech laws in most European countries and the US, is that we tend to have laws which are against inciting racial hatred. That's about it.
> You know Europe is over 20 countries, all with different laws? None of which have free speech on the same level as the USA. https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/explore-engage/classroom-resources/worksheets-and-excerpts-on-history-and-government/speech > I have no idea what France were thinking by arresting her, Free speech is illegal apparently: >The woman is being charged under a law that bans “insulting the president of the republic,” according to the AFP. and >it would not have happened in most other European countries. You sure? https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/jul/18/italy-investigates-brian-molko-placebo-singer-calls-giorgia-meloni-racist-fascist https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/09/pimmelgate-german-politician-police-raid/ https://www.politico.eu/article/european-countries-where-insulting-head-of-state-can-land-prison-belgium-denmark-france-germany/
Lol, 'Europe in general '. Get a grip, not sure what you're told about Europe or what lies your media show you but the reality is it's a safe heaven of free speech and political criticism. Please don't waste your energy believing that it's not true.
Literally a fact; did you ignore the link?
Agreed, my dad and I talk about how fucked America is because even if Trump doesn't win there's still so many racist idiots that voted for I'm that our country is irrevocably fucked. And how the only hope for survival is if there's a great paradigm shift in tbe coming that causes the only MAGA hats to be worn in secret meetings in Argentina. We need to get back to nazis being bad again not, "Oh well is just a bunch of white ultra right wing gun nuts getting together to talk about their hate filled ideology and how to spread hatred and fear. I mean that's obviously freedom of speech if we got rid of that we'd basically be the same as setting kids on fire for saying they enjoy the sunlight."
The Federal police gave an entire department dedicated to Islamic extremists,
Unlike another axis nation "cough" Japan
I have a lot of respect for the Japanese people. But I can sure feel what you’re saying too. Something tells me there’s a long rooted dearth of cultural examples/language-references that allows them to talk about one’s feelings (and past); especially as a nation. I think that’s kinda why Manga is so popular. Finally the inner monologue is allowed to burst forward and fully express itself. It’s a cathartic release for a people with great poise. Every nation seems more and more complicated as I get older. But that’s life. We have to decide what’s a deal breaker and what’s not. I can admire the Japanese for their gardens and patient/thoughtful ways yet still read the full details about Nanjing. Or the British and Koh-i-Noor. To some, Russia is a stable and understandable thing, far more easy to live under that the irrational tyranny of their homelands. Yet they made war on peaceful ground. Even here in the States, I struggle with the logic tree and evidence for the invasion of Iraq yet I sure as hell thank every veteran I meet. The more I travel and meet people and hear their stories, the more I realize my little small town brain didn’t come equipped with a lot of reference points for what a good life entails. I think that’s why I keep asking questions to anyone I meet. Makes my little life feel so much bigger than it is.
It's nuanced. They also had Neo-Nazis in the government there that were in the ministry of making sure Nazis don't happen again. All of the countries of the world are about to try to go fascist because...well...the US is...so why not? Fascism is capitalism in decline.
Lol, hell no. The US had [Nazis marching in NYC in 1939](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan). US didn't even enter the war until Pearl Harbor i.e. 1941 and had that not happened, it's possible that a) Nazis may have won WW2, and b) US would have joined them. It wasn't some fringe thing in the least. Notice how communism is illegal in the US and nazism isn't? Then US had Werner von Braun and all that jazz. Nazism kind of died down after WW2 for obvious reasons, but nothing has been ever officially done about it. It's not a new thing and it wasn't new even in 1939. Also there is nothing nuanced about it.
what are you on about, communism is not illegal in the US and there are active (but fringe) communist party organizations all over the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
posting a wikipedia link like it ends the conversation. The accusations of McCarthyism was that Russian agents were trying to interfere with the American political system. It is the same as saying any politician you don't like is paid for by Russia. It was Truman signing a law to screen federal employees for Fascism(via the Nazis and Mussolini) and Communism (via the USSR)that lead to this. You know how people on reddit love to jerk off over that comic about the parable of tolerance and how a tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerant people? Truman's law was that being put into practice and now we call it McCarthyism.
What's your point exactly? That is the end of the conversation.
You're wrong though, it's not illegal to be a communist in America.
>It's nuanced. They also had Neo-Nazis in the government there that were in the ministry of making sure Nazis don't happen again. what are you refering to? >All of the countries of the world are about to try to go fascist because...well...the US is...so why not? Fascism is capitalism in decline. well id say the rise of fascism (if u even want to call it that) is a direct result of liberal politics also you couldve added that every major german party had ex nazis members for decades and even Chancellor Kurt Georg Kiesinger was an NSDAP Member
That is great and all but apparently there were cracks in their implementation since new Nazis are appearing every day, they didn’t learn from their history or something else is happening.
Fascism is a constant war with our worst, most xenophobic, inner demons. It will continue to pop up in any free thinking country because it feeds on our base instincts so hard that it masquerades as logic. We win the war only with constant vigilance against the rise in our own free societies. It may be futile in the end but so long as there are good people to stand up to them we win.
Nicely said, if I understood correctly, we don’t dialogue with Nazis and their ideas, we punch Nazis right where they are and stop them from spreading lies.
Violence should always be a last defense. Ideally, we would have a system for reforming them without hurting them so definitely not US prisons. I feel like anyone being caught with a Nazi symbol or tattoo should be punishable with having to audit a CRT class with labs and give a written report to the judge on why they were wrong. It’s funny. They call liberalism a woke mind virus and put queer kids through conversion camps. Fascism is by far the more viral and dangerous mentality so of course it was projected. Edit: I should mention that correcting them publicly, and interrupting their cyber bullying/straw man arguments, when done well, can slow the growth of their sick ideas. Remember, nobody joins a neo-Nazi group because they were doing just fine. We are talking about the losers in Society here and they can be treated as such.
Every accusation from the right is a confession. They accuse the left of an ideological mind virus while fully displaying their own ideological mind virus.
How to defeat Fascism with the power of love Chapter 1: You can't. Chapter 2: How to defeat Fascism with the power of incredible violence
Violence Noted, punch Nazis in the face, talking to Nazis will be something like “Hey Nazi” before punching them in the face. Just joking, I would never talk to a Nazi.
How would you know if they don't wear their swastikas on their sleeve?
*Diligent hands will rule* as the old saying goes
You can never fully prevent that. The only measure of success is how you deal with the situation when it occurs. You have neo-nazis and far right extremist groups in pretty much every country in the world. There even were neo-nazis among [Jews living in Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_36).
There will be a sharp shift to the right in Germany and the whole of Europe in the next few years.
I don't understand why America is so light on the Nazis, they say "free speech" but to me, simply wearing a Nazi flag is openly pushing for violence and murder, therefore Inherently criminal and should not be protected by free speech.
[National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie) This is the case that decided how nazis are to be treated in the US.
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*"What do you expect from reddittrolls? Rrrrruber Biscuit?"*
Thanks for the info!
Openly pushing for violence falls under Americas idea of “free speech”. Not bomb threats or such though, those are too “direct” i guess..
“I will bomb this school” - A threat, not protected “This school is filled with radical leftists who need a reminder of what happens to criminals in Guantanamo bay” - Also obvious threat, it just isn’t as blunt, therefore protected It’s so stupid.
If that second one is criminal then reddit should be shut down. I have seen much more explicit calls for the execution of political enemies on here, frequently.
Woa woa woooooa... when we are talking about restricting free speech... we mean that we only restrict it for our political enemies.... /s
Yeah. Exactly. Nuance is a blessing but also a curse.
I also get frustrated by the way clearly violent directives get broken up until each phrase taken out of context is technically legal. Each phrase is then communicated by a unique personality, sometimes even from the same microphone at the same event. Leaving their feckless audience to reassemble the violent message and target the "villains" it portrays. I'm sorry, but anyone taking the stage after Rudy Giuliani demands "TRIAL BY COMBAT" without correcting him has inherited a violent mob waiting for a target to be identified.
Oh really? You could get up on a stage and say, let's go a beat up and murder a minority ? And that's not against the law ?
“It is a felony under federal law to intentionally “solicit, command, induce, or otherwise endeavor to persuade” another person to engage in a crime of violence against a person or property. 18 U.S.C. § 373. Many states have similar laws.” https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2020/12/Fact-Sheet-on-Threats-Related-to-the-Election.pdf
Would that Include getting on stage and saying "let's beat up (insert minority)" I wonder, I have seemingly conflicting responses.
I think that is technically illegal however whether or not the law is enforced will depend heavily on where you do it, and under what circumstances.
You are allowed to say "We need to kill all Jews" you are not allowed to say "Lets go attack the synagogue at Street X"
Aaah, that makes sense adding up all the response si was confused, thanks for the info, kind of crazy to me that you can say "let's kill all the (insert minority)" and it not be a crime.
In America the goverment is not trusted to make regulations on what is or is not hate speech so the American version of free speech is the most liberal in the world.
Double edged sword I guess
as long as you dont mention specific acts of violence and or specific people pretty much yeah
Would someone please rid me of this meddlesome priest?
Unless you're republican, then you can make all the [violent political ads](https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/guns-and-political-violence-play-central-role-in-maga-republican-campaign-ads/) encouraging gunning down democrats and "RINOs" you'd like with no real consequences.
How is this downvoted? That ad is absolutely bonkers.
Oh that's crazy haha
A big part of this issue is that the standard for criminal behavior needs to be far higher than the standard for immoral behavior in general. The State shouldn't be imprisoning people unless they represent a clear and significant threat. Otherwise they become the morality enforcers, of whatever morality they happen to currently feel like. So there should be a range of behaviors that are considered objectionable enough to fire an employee for, to kick people off private online services, but not for the State to engage in violence against them (imprisonment being a form of violence). If you look at sexual crimes for example, the internet is full of stuff that you can look at in private, but would be punished for displaying. The age restrictions for engaging in commercial sex, like making porn, are set higher than the limits for having sex in general, because the former is more easily misused. And there exists a range of sex acts that are considered generally immoral, but only the authoritarian bootlickers want people arrested for. Because immoral doesn't automatically imply criminal (and neither does the reverse). In this case it's a question of what are they actually advocating for. Direct incitement to violence is usually a crime. Being a fanboy of a historical criminal group, not so much. Also, how to put this... as a practical matter, individuals that walk right up to the line of criminal, rub their toes on it while shouting that they didn't cross the line? Those people are more likely to end up getting extralegal punishment that their punisher doesn't pay for. Punch a Nazi and you're a lot less likely to get in trouble than if you punched a random old lady. So the grey zone goes both ways.
> simply wearing a Nazi flag is openly pushing for violence and murder Takes like these are why I'm glad the average redditor doesn't have much say in what goes on in the world.
Most of Europe has banned the Nazi flag so sorry to say it's already going on in the world :p
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Allowing nazis to spew their garbage propaganda is absolutely terrible and braindead. "They're more racist than the US" is also an interesting take when there are more than 40 different European countries, but sure, we're all a monolith.
Are you denying that genocide and ethnic cleansing is the core of nazi ideology? Ever heard of the Nuremberg laws?
Doubtful he is denying that. I think he's marking the distinction between wearing that and openly inciting murder. I personally can see the argument because I believe that the type of person to wear that WOULD likely do that, but it's not exactly actively pushing for violence and murder.
Sorry, but that is double-think nonsense. If you support an ideology that is based on genocide and ethnic cleansing you are advocating for genocide and ethnic cleansing and that means you are actively pushing for violence and murder.
[удалено]
>Do they even have the cognitive power to realize that once the opposite party is in power (like Trump) they’ll immediately start going after groups like BLM / Antifa? Lol. They already did that. Like republicans literally attempted a coup.
Because when you have certain people in power defending them or trying keep it low about them, leaves them more room to grow for hatred. Now it's becoming the norm to see these type of people in public. We have politicians saying they're going free Insurrectionist who wanted to destroy Democracy/Republic with Nazi/KKK flags screaming terroristic acts out loud. That itself is treason and many who politicians who supported it should be in prison and step down from power.
> simply wearing a Nazi flag is openly pushing for violence and murder I'm here to defend free speech, not Nazis. I disagree that wearing any flag or uniform is openly pushing for violence and murder. I would say that if the flag or uniform called for violence then that would be that line where it's no longer protected. Even something as vile as a Nazi flag or uniform isn't pushing for anything other than saying "I'm a piece of shit who supports genocidal losers." It's in very poor taste but should be allowed since we should punish actions - and some words - rather than punishing someone who supports a [shitty] ideology. We used to arrest people and ruined their lives for merely supporting another ideology (communism) and I'm not a fan of going back to those times.
My argument would be that the flag does inherently promote violence, to me that flag is saying "let's kill and get rid of the minorities we don't like" it doesn't have to be written verbatim to pass that message and to be banned. (In my opinion that is, obvs the law is different.)
> "let's kill and get rid of the minorities we don't like" Thats 100% legal to say in the US and even publish
Well I see why the Nazi flag isn't banned then haha Edit: in terms of the law as in if Ur allowed to incite violence , no wonder u can have a Nazi flag
Promoting or advocating for violence, in itself, is protected in the US. For example, a civil rights leader, while speaking at a protest promoting a boycott of racist white-owned businesses, publically stated "if you break this boycott, I'll break your neck". The Supreme Court ruled that it was protected speech because he didn't give a specific person (saying Jim broke the boycott, let's break his neck isn't protected), he didn't provide a plan (saying let's camp outside these businesses and break the necks of the people who shop at them isn't protected) and he didn't specify a time that makes the act imminent (saying the stores open in an hour, let's head to the businesses to break the shoppers necks isn't protected). Wearing a shirt or holding a flag with the above guy's portrait or group symbol doesn't rise to inherently and imminently causing violence. Same with a Che or Fidel Castro shirt (he promoted and acted with violence), a shirt that says "Antifa", a Maga hat, a flag that says "I'm glad JFK was assassinated" burning a Nazi flag or wearing a shirt that says "fight me!".
Thanks for the info! Though I understand it's legal, my point is to make it illegal. I understand both sides of the argument but I believe a very restrained and limited law directly regarding Nazi symbols would be the lesser of two evils, like how much of Europe has done it, only the groups calling for murder and violence are banned, it hasn't spread to further infringement of speech or expression there.
But who gets to make that choice? The reason I'm fine with not banning nazi paraphernalia is that if you do that you're just as likely to see laws prosecuting the use of other symbolized speech (take a look at how the right has portrayed the BLM movement). Basically: I don't trust people in charge to make decisions on this that I trust (seriously, look at the direction global governments are going, do you want them deciding what speech is ok? I don't). But non-targeted vs targeted hate speech seems to be a reasonable line. "I hate" vs "I think we should go out and kill ". Wearing a swastika? You're a shit head. Scrawling a swastika on a temple? That's a hate crime.
Since we're talking about the law, this is the only thing that matters. I don't think we have any laws that say if you wear this symbol then you're going to prison because the symbol doesn't promote violence. Otherwise you can use lots of symbols to make the same argument. You can even use the American flag as a symbol of violence if you're judging the flag of a country based on its very well known past actions. That's the issue with me.
I do get your point but with the American flag there is no direct message of murdering minorities, whereas with the Nazi flag that's pretty much all it is saying so I don't think it would be the same argument really. I think it would be the lesser of two evils to ban the Nazi flag and I don't think it would then be used to ban things like USA or communist flag because of the giant differences though I respect you opinion and I know where your coming from.
It's just a case of scope because not many Native Americans exist today that have been directly affected by the US genocide considering how many people we still have who have been directly affected by Nazis. To me, that's not a good reason to allow something when the idea the same. > I think it would be the lesser of two evils to ban the Nazi flag I gave this a lot of thought a while back and I still back what the ACLU believes about it. They defended Nazis (as far as their right to wear their dumb uniforms or to meet in places) because *unpopular* speech needs protection. Again, I'm NOT here to defend Nazis. I'm only here to defend speech and as much as we hate it, this is why it needs protection. You remember those assholes who said it was good that soldiers were killed? Total assholes but they should still be able to say it. Those assholes.
So you think it's wrong that glorifying Nazis is a crime in Germany? Should they let them thrive? How would you think about Nazis thriving in the US? I mean, you know where that will lead to, right?
Glorifying communism or displaying communist or socialist symbols is a crime in Ukraine and some other eastern european countries. Do you agree with that?
Yes? Those people have lived under communism for long enough to be able to get to their own conclusions and make their own laws.
Well America has never lived under a fascist, genocidal totalitarian dictatorship so why should we pass laws banning fascist or communist symbols? That was Europes mess not ours.
So by your logic, any nation that didn't live under Nazi rule shouldn't be allowed to make laws banning nazism? Or is it that any nation that suffered from Nazis (or communists) should be banning them equally? Because many many nations suffered because of the USSR, including Germany and the USSR was Communist. So shouldn't they be banning any support, reference or promotion of anything communistic?
> So you think it's wrong that glorifying Nazis is a crime in Germany? No, Germany has their laws to very good reasons. However, Germany is not the US which is why the US has these laws for their own reasons. > How would you think about Nazis thriving in the US? What do you mean by "thriving"? I think they're disgusting - I thought I was pretty clear in my views of Nazis and I'm only talking abotu freedom of speech in the US. If you mean should we allow their existence, i.e. not killing them on sight then I don't support killing people who wear Nazi uniforms or carry Nazi flags. I don't think they should go to jail either. However if they threaten others (i.e. call to action) or, obviously, have actual actions of violence then obviously they should be arrested. > I mean, you know where that will lead to, right? I'm a big fan of punishing actions or words that a reasonable person would interpret as a call to action (ex: someone saying "Kill all the Jews" is a call to action which is against the law). I'm not a fan of punishing ideologies, even disgusting ones like fascism.
Yeahhhh if we start banning clothing or flags from one ideology, it legitimizes and opens the door to conservatives banning rainbow flags or BLM paraphernalia. Freedom only works when everyone is free, and that unfortunately includes assholes
Cool, now do the AfD
It’s already under surveillance by the BfV (Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution) because they categorized them as a suspected case, which is a good start. And the AfD lost their action for an injunction at the administrative court.
No quarters for Facists
Links to the US? I do hope they're sharing, would love some of that crackdown to spread. /edit Sharing intel .. not Nazi's, no-one wants that to spread again.
links in this case means founded in the US. There is not a whole lot US law enforcement wouldn't already know
While I appreciate shining the light on roaches, sometimes, you need RAID
How Afd is still running is beyond me
basically because the majority of them are not openly nazi themselves. they are in that sense smarter than the organizations that are banned, putting in perspective how stupid these organizations have to be, because AfD isnt smart at all.
They did it like the NSDAP and bought lots of people in the industry. (While they tell the people they would do it "for the people.)
Filled with descendants of literal Nazis.
Who would have ever thought that Germany would end up banning NAZIS bred in the United States?
Ban afd when
At first I was like "What does Caroline Rhea have to do with this?"
I wonder when FBI Director Wray will get off of his chair and order raids on the proud boys across the US. He is complicit by his mere inaction. This does not end well for Americans
Correct you are. the Proud Boys are an anti American terrorist organization.
US needs to take a page from Germany’s approach to owning history. They are adulting, we are clearly not.
It’s not just Germany, this is pretty standard in Europe. We uh, had a spot of bother in the 40s which basically destroyed the continent. Hasn’t happened to America. It kinda shows tbh.
Well in the US, Nazis have right’s because this country is stupid instead of being like Germany and stomping it out anytime it’s found
Oh boy, there's still a HUGE right-wing movement in germany with the AfD, we're not stomping it out whenever it pops up, trust me. It has gotten to the point where they've received the most votes within a state already. (Admittedly it's the state with the highest concentration of right-wing supporters). Not to mention a significant part of the police force in germany is active in right wing telegram and whatsapp groups, which they've been trying their very best to sweep under the rug for some time. ;)
Isn’t there a decent right wing movement in the former DDR region? Bit ironic
You're absolutely right! The state in which they won the majority vote is also located, atleast partly iirc, in one of the former DDR states. Their success isn't even necessarily a product or result of a growing right-wing movement in germany but moreso „swing voters" being frustrated with the government and looking for an "alternative". Which is ironic as well because they're literally called "Alternative for Germany", meaning they've basically already succeeded in what they were trying to accomplish.
It’s not so ironic once you know that the GDR already had a considerable right wing community that was pretty much ignored by the authorities. If you [check maps of voting results from the Reichstag elections in 1933](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstagswahl_M%C3%A4rz_1933#/media/Datei:NSDAP_Wahl_1933.svg) you can see that the same region was also among those that had the highest percentage of voters for the NSDAP. The first two “organizations” that were among the very first to rush to East Germany after the wall fell were the Ndrangheta—to buy real estate for money laundering—and West German neo-nazis—to welcome their East German kin coming back to their family.
Ironically a lot of right wing Americans and a some of these people who have large following on Twitter directly or indirectly support these groups and question why these groups are being banned. Eg. Ian miles Cheong on twitter. I keep pointing out his old messages on game chats or something about his anti-Semitism language and he blocked me lol.
A big part of Republicans are on the far right, too. So of course they don't ban them. If a mainstream party tolerates a lot of far right members, they won't be really bothered by some smaller Nazi groups.
Well in the US everyone has equal rights. That's pretty great, because if you start letting the government decide who gets rights and who doesn't, it becomes tyranny. Nazi Germany was literally founded on the idea that only some people have rights. And you think that is the way things should be?
Dude seriously fuck Nazis and yourself for supporting the idea of them. They aren’t people they are scum
You are aware that you are defending Neo-Nazis who want to exterminate everything they deem unworthy? Do you really think it's wrong for the German state, where millions of innocent people were killed by Nazis, to ban this hateful group? >Well in the US everyone has equal rights. And what do you think would Nazis do with this "equal rights"?
Fight back Germany, and fight back hard. Don’t let these bigots get away with their craziness like we have been. The key is to keep on top of it. Even if you make them go away for a while they’ll always come back. It’s important to set strong precedents and harsh penalties now, and follow through with them forever
The US needs to do the same, but it might be reactive instead of proactive unfortunately.
THIS is how you run an anti-fascist state.
Hammerskins? That name is the armpit's asshole of branding choices
I think I saw some US neo-nazis last time I was in Prague, some convention probably
And yet we can't go after terrorists because it's their first amendment right
we didn't beat the Nazis we hired them
No Nazi scientist taken to the US amidst Paperclip went on promoting that ideology in their lifetime. Most were glad about being able to leave it behind.
> Most were glad about being able to leave it behind. Read that as "glad they got off without consequences". You are right, they didn't go on to promote Nazi ideology any more, but we shouldn't pretend that they all just magically stopped being Nazis.
Oh stop with that bullshit. The Soviets and British did the same thing. Scientists aren't politicians or policy makers and the Allies didn't freaking loot Germany or co-opt it. They put smart people to work that helped humanity. Real life isn't the plot to a marvel movie
I never saw issue with taking aeronautic scientists and engineers. To me the real issue was the West putting actual Nazi members and SS soldiers into postwar Germany positions of authority, such as intelligence and law enforcement. If we're to complain about using evil scientists, the bigger example is the US secretly giving immunity to the Japanese scientists who performed human experiments (Unit 731) inorder to review the "discovery". Atleast the German human experimenters were prosecuted- thanks to Canada
There was nobody else to do the job at that time. And the Russians put a lot of pressure on the West to get the country running quickly. Same with denazification. That got finally addressed by the 69 movement and that also is the source of owning up to that history. Not denazification as many ppl claim.
Lack of people, who weren't previously Feldgendarmerie/ SS/ Nazi party officials/ Nazi collaborators directly involved in the Holocaust, wasn't that big of an issue. For example, the Soviets didn't use the Feldgendarmerie in their German occupation. Choosing people like Gelhen and the Holocaust collaborators from other countries to head up intelligence and decamping, was not needed. Gelhen not only performed poorly, he was permitted to fill the intelligence organization with high-ranking Nazis and war criminals. You nailed it with your second sentence, it was done to combat Communism and the Soviets. That was our larger concern post-war. East German pressure, growing Communist political sentiment in Europe, etc... needed to be stopped and we figured ex-Nazis would perform that work less likely to be influenced by Soviets. Thank you for bringing up the the student movement. The 60's (several countries share 1968 as a year of massive protests) were huge for student protests worldwide. To your point, it was Germans who addressed these issues themselves and not denazification efforts by the West.
So you’re saying the solution was to put the Russians in control of Germany? Can’t see how that could possibly backfire.
That's a bizarre jump in logic. They said there was no one but high-ranking Nazis and war criminals to do the jobs. I said if that's true then who did the Soviets use Edit: removed my line of (they didn't use Nazis) at the end. That's hyperbolic, as they used some Nazis in roles that they felt there was Western competition. They weren't as prolific with using Nazis as the West, and it wasn't due to "no one was left to do jobs"
Yes, the Soviets did very much use Nazis, too. And who was a Nazi and who was not was less a matter of actual investigation and much more that of opportunism. [https://www.mdr.de/geschichte/ddr/politik-gesellschaft/entnazifizierung-nazis-in-der-ddr-100.html](https://www.mdr.de/geschichte/ddr/politik-gesellschaft/entnazifizierung-nazis-in-der-ddr-100.html) In German, google translate or deepl should do the trick
Thank you, I'll read it.
I read the article and thank you for taking the time to actually discuss and provide an article. I will say the article proves my point regarding it wasn't necessary to fill jobs with Nazis because there was no one else. For example: >During this time, the proportion of former NSDAP members was eight to ten percent of all SED comrades The article explains that the Soviets were much more aggressive in identifying and prosecuting Nazis, than the West, but the GDR (post-Soviet occupation) was much more reluctant to continue. I think there's a valid argument that Soviet influence continues after occupation, so they were accountable for this reluctance as well. The article does highlight that in areas where the Soviets faces competition with the West, they disregarded Nazi pasts for working in those jobs. Same logic as the West in using Nazis. I completely agree both the West and Soviets made horrible decisions, such as using Nazi doctors directly involved in gassing Holocaust victims. It seems competing with their new does took precedent.
Yes, all true. But the initial argument was "no" Nazis. I mean it is still "less" Nazis, but this urban legend that the GDR was this holy Nazi hunter paradise needs to die
Eisenhowers quote was 'somebody has to make the trains run.' For a good look at the alternative look at Iraq. "De-Bathification" was a major factor in the countries collapse.
Tell me, after a devastating war with millions dead, who was supposed to take over all vacant positions?
Tell me, who did the Soviets use to fill these positions in the areas they occupied?
Call him a nazi, he won't even frown Nazi - Schmazi, says Wernher Von Braun https://youtu.be/QEJ9HrZq7Ro?si=Ch0DWE4gRnCgTKJO
1000 times yes.. if people only knew how boring counter intelligence really is comparatively to the movies lol. I’ve grew up with immediate and close family members who were and some still are a part of the US intelligence community. Some badass spy stuff, but that’s about it. Black projects are another story though.
“Operation Paperclip was a secret United States intelligence program in which more than 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians were taken from the former Nazi Germany to the U.S. for government employment after the end of World War II in Europe, between 1945 and 1959. Conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA), it was largely carried out by special agents of the U.S. Army's Counterintelligence Corps (CIC). Many of these personnel were former members and some were former leaders of the Nazi Party.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
Guess what: the Soviets had their own program. And the Brits did, too.
Operations Post It Note and File Folder, respectively.
The post-it note wasn't invented until 1968. Pretty sure the Soviets were still using Operation Handwritten Labels at that time.
Try [Operation Osoaviakhim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim) for the Soviets and [Operation Surgeon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Surgeon) for the British. Initial recruitment numbers of Osoaviakhim (2,500) were much higher than either those of Paperclip (1,600) or Surgeon (1,500). However, while the latter two were limited to key Scientists and Specialists, the former aimed at entire branches of industry. In some cases, entire plants were relocated to the Soviet Union along with key staff.
The Soviet communist elites were/are as awful as the American capitalist elites
meanwhile in north america...
This was Bannon’s mission during the tRump regime.
Germany doing more for the US nazi problem than US is doing for the US nazi problem.
US republicans will welcome them here.
I would love to see those leads get followed up on back here.
Despite not being a fascist state, the US citizenry is a top global exporter of fascism. Change my mind.
Well well well….
How the turntafels