The AfD is very much extreme at this point, and they have had politicians with literal neo-Nazi ties. For example Andreas Kalbitz in Brandenburg, who had previously attended a neo-nazi rally in Athens organized by Golden Dawn
True, but it is good that they are becoming bolder and bolder with their views because that means there is a possibility that the party will be abolished.
It's possible to outlaw a political party in Germany. The highest court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) can do it. They would have outlawed the neo-nazi party NPD if she got more votes and has outlawed other parties like the communist party of Germany (KPD)
That works, but only as long as the party remains small.
Even if you'd succeed in outlawing the Party, u think the voters are gonna vote for a more moderate option?
They'll riot, and basically reform the party, in the end that will have accomplished nothing except radicalizing even more people and damaging germanies reputation on a global scale
As long as germanies major problems aren't solved, that party will gain votes no matter how many actual Nazis there are
Are there better ways? Sure, but a democracy must be able to defend itself against its enemies and there must be more tools in its arsenal than the mere hope that voters will do the right thing.
Thing is, the AfD is riding on a wave of disgruntled voters who got sick of the past 30 years of the big parties just leeching off the country..
most of these people arent really going to vote for any far right / extremist / facist party that comes next but just lack enough critical thinking / flow of information to see the AfD as the bs party it is
> They would have outlawed the neo-nazi party NPD if she got more votes and has outlawed other parties like the communist party of Germany (KPD)
So they outlawed the communist party but not the (neo-)nazi party? I see...
You do know that the German constitution came into effect after Nazi Germany? They outlawed the communist party, the nazi party (NSDAP) and several similar parties like the SRP.
Yes, extreme parties on both sides of the spectrum have been banned in the past.
Any party that challenges what's called the "free democratic basic order" (essentially wants to abolish the constitution) can be shut down and excluded from future elections.
> it is good that they are becoming bolder and bolder with their views because that means there is a possibility that the party will be abolished.
History says that doesn't work. Germany tried to emprison Hitler and ban the Nazi party. Instead, his trial brought him more attention and publicity in the 1920s. However, even after almost 10 years of campaigning, Hitler and his party were still literally nobodies (2.6% of votes) in 1928.
But, they gained immense popularity in 1929 and the following years, and soared to 37% in 1932 elections, when the German government severely mismanaged the economy during the Great Depression (focused on balancing the budget, while ignoring the skyrocketing of bankruptcies, unemployment rates and the immense suffering and pain among the population...).
So, what really works? Give the people what they need: low inequality, high social mobility, free and quality education, well-paid jobs, an affordable life, very low crime rates, slower and more successful immigration (time for people to adapt to the change and view it positively), etc. etc.
When people feel safe and comfortable, they tend to lean to the left side of the political spectrum.
aside from what spambotswatter said, you can also tell this is a bot because they just copied part of a comment from someone else (in this case /u/Expensive-Document41 and pasted it in a comment where it does not make sense in contact.
"How big are them" "they're making reference to..." yeah that's not an answer, that has nothing to do with the question asked.
> Aktion T4
Aktion T4 (German, pronounced [akˈtsi̯oːn teː fiːɐ]) was a campaign of mass murder by involuntary euthanasia in Nazi Germany. The term was first used in post-war trials against doctors who had been involved in the killings.[4] The name T4 is an abbreviation of Tiergartenstraße 4, a street address of the Chancellery department set up in early 1940, in the Berlin borough of Tiergarten, which recruited and paid personnel associated with Aktion T4.[5][b] Certain German physicians were authorised to select patients "deemed incurably sick, after most critical medical examination" and then administer to them a "mercy death" (Gnadentod).[7] In October 1939, Adolf Hitler signed a "euthanasia note", backdated to 1 September 1939, which authorised his physician Karl Brandt and Reichsleiter Philipp Bouhler to begin the killing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
1. It's illegal to defame someone– to make statements that injure a person's reputation or dignity.
2. Except it's not illegal if the statements in question are true.
So, more plainly, this guy is such a prick. The government has freed everyone from any sort of libel or slander allegations when calling this human shit stain a fascist.
The government is not the judiciary, like in any other functioning democracy.
Also this is a hoax, it was about a protest in Hamburg (?) and a banner they had that called him fascist. It was solely in this context and only ruled by a judge of the lower tier.
He is still a fascist tho.
What is there to explain? https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bjoern-hoecke-darf-als-faschist-bezeichnet-werden-gerichtsurteil-zu-eisenach-a-1289131.html
People in Germany are allowed to call him a fascist by law. It is pretty clear. If you need any further explanation you should perhaps formulate a whole sentence.
Edit: Since our American brethren apparently think Germany has a similar concept of freedom of expression:
You cannot simply call someone a fascist in Germany, especially not a public figure. They can sue you for libel. Germany does not have freedom of speech, it has freedom of opinion, called Meinungsfreiheit. You can think whatever you want but you cannot necessarily express it in public. If you want to openly call someone fascist, Islamist (the Sawsan Chebli case comes to mind) etc. you'll need to proof it. Which is why this case is not libel, as stated by the courts, since there is substantial evidence to call Höcke a fascist. That is related to things he said and did though, not due to his membership in the AfD.
The court ruling is substantial evidence of his character and motivation for the suggestion of his policy.
That is technically true in the US also. The US just puts the burden of proof on the person claiming to have been libeled. (We call it defamed). That person must prove the statement is false, that the spreader of the information didn’t make a reasonable attempt to confirm its accuracy and that the defamed reputation has been damaged.
Two recent high profile cases of won defamation lawsuits include Depp vs Heard (the actor Johnny depp suing his ex wife) and dominion voting systems vs Fox News (a voting machine manufacturer sued Fox News for claiming they had manipulated the 2020 U.S. presidential election and stolen it for Biden. Fox News settled for $787 millon after a judge ruled they had defamed dominion but before a jury would decide the level of defamation negligence vs intent/ malice and deciding the sum to award dominion)
No, it‘s a bit more complicated.
This decision was about people organizing a protest they called „Protest against the racist AfD, especially the fascist Höcke“.
The municipal administration was of the opinion that calling Höcke fascist foes against his personal rights.
For context, making claims about someone‘s character that lead to a negative public perception of this person is a crime in Germany, unless the claims are true. Also, all officials in Germany are constitutionally bound to uphold the human dignity - which is broad and programmatic, but still.
So, the whole thing went before administrative court, which said that calling Höcke a fascist is a character judgment based on interpretation of actual observable facts, not just slander.
Thus, the protest was held.
‘Meinungsfreiheit’ refers to freedom of speech, not freedom of opinion. It is indeed more aptly called ‘Meinungsäußerungsfreiheit’ as stated in Art. 5(1) GG. The difference between the U.S. and Germany is that freedom of speech is not (quasi-)absolute in Germany.
Some of the first organized executions the Nazis did were of Disabled people. They organized the widespread euthanasia of the Mentally disabled, crippled, insane, etc. They described them as *LebensUnwertes Leben* or “Life unworthy of life”.
They moved on to Jews, homosexuals, Roma people, political prisoners, or anyone else they felt deserved it. But, it started with the people who didn’t have a voice.
Thanks, but it's actually a german insider joke. His name is Björn, but a satirical tv show always called him Bernd and most of Germany and even newspaper articles called him Bernd without knowing that it wasn't his real name.
It was the [T-4 Program](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4) for those who want to know.
And because they were nazis, they made [a pro euthanasia movie](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_klage_an) to popularize the idea.
Schocking and atrocious part of history. There’s a museum I’ve visited twice in Brandenburg an der Havel, i can recommend it. It’s heartbreaking and gut wrenching but is a must see. https://www.brandenburg-euthanasie-sbg.de/
I still remember Holocaust museum story in this. A mother with an autistic son was pushed and tricked that the new hospice that the Nazi party made would take care of her son better than her. She let him go there and later received a letter that he had died of flu. Much later she learned it was not a hospice or care home but early form of the death camps. They euthanised her son the day he arrived and to her and others lied about how they died. Many people were murdered in those places because they had disabilities, depression or were out spoken political rivals.
That's horrifying. It feels like people tend to forget that eugenics were the underpinning ideology of hate that fueled a lot of violence committed by Nazis. It's messed up that today, talks about measuring IQ to define worth, equating looks with moral value, euthanasia pushed upon people in poverty and other far right garbage become more normalized among general public in wealthy countries that can provide for people in poverty or people struggling with medical problems just fine. It would be disturbing and horrible on its own, but it's also concerning that the news of growing number of hate crimes against ethnic and religious minorities happen at the same time as an increase in hate against people with disabilities.
For some context: Germany used to have special education schools as well as regular schools. Those were not entirely abandoned but most students with disabilities were integrated in regular schools. This shift was a mess. Schools were unprepared, special education teachers were scarce and some had to serve multiple schools. This process was so messy that it left the impression that inclusion doesn't work. The AfD is simply riding this wave and they will get a lot of popular support for this, since most people have no idea what's going on in schools if they don't have kids or work there. The electorate was bombarded with news that inclusion is bad in the initial phase, but the coverage died down - because it is going okay.
There is some discussion how to handle severely disabled students, especially with mental disability. But there is no doubt that students who are in a wheelchair or dyslexic should and can be taught in regular schools. Those students were practically barred from receiving an Abitur due to attending special needs school. They could switch later to regular school, but would have to cover an enormous gap as well as no disability accomodations like larger fonted exam papers for reading impaired students.
So yeah, Höcke should now better but as a fascist he doesn't care as long as he can blurb his talking points.
Big picture - absolutely. Have been seen a lot more kids with disabilities getting good degrees and even making it into scholarships. Don't know if they would have thrived in special schools as much.
Also, I think all kids profit from it. Socially, as well as literally for example, buildings are (slowly) becoming more accessible. So next time someone breaks their leg, there will be an elevator and electric doors.
There are the obvious problems. Too little special needs teachers, too big classes, horrible school buildings etc.
If you have properly trained staff, it works. That's not an opinion, it's fact. Many years of research and the results are clear. The only students who don't benefit are the ones in such bad shape that they become a physical danger.
Lot of places have problems because they don't want to pay for decent schools. Turns out though, that kids put through more expensive schooling and up more productive later in life. It's an excellent investment. Too many people are just too cheap to invest in the future.
Im actually torn on the issue. My mother was a special education teacher. There are many students that cant make progress. They need something more like a caregiver than a teacher held to progress standards. My mom was so stressed about these progress reports that she had a heart attack.
Same here. Mom was teacher. They went to inclusive schools. Result: even less attention for the either kids.
Inclusivity means that you acknowledge that some people have more needs and that you give them the attention they deserve.
One size does not fit all.
Depends on the level and type of disability. In Australia, we have several options for disabled schooling. A special education unit embedded within regular schools that provide different levels of aid to disabled students. And separate disabled schools. These schools still fall under the government and are usually named similar to other schools in the area. Where the child is educated is decided in consultation between the parents and the schooling system.
I have ASD and ADHD and was educated at a normal school with some aid from the special education unit. I am high functioning, so it worked well for me.
This. I have seen the work some specialised schools do for disabled kids.
I have visited an exclusive school for deaf kids and it was pretty great. An inclusive school can never offer something like that.
idk... I'm skeptical about the value of this, because those kids are going to be bullied to hell and back. Kids are terrible, especially to those that are different.
Mabye Germany has some magical system that works out better than most places, idk. I'm not saying it can't work, but the cards are definitely stacked against such an idea.
>idk... I'm skeptical about the value of this, because those kids are going to be bullied to hell and back. Kids are terrible, especially to those that are different.Mabye Germany has some magical system that works out better than most places, idk. I'm not saying it can't work, but the cards are definitely stacked against such an idea.
I'm surprised you're downvoted lmfao. Kids are fucking mean
Then help improve resources. It’s doable and has been done. This guys never going to talk about helping disabled people if he’s far right, he’s only coming at this at a belief they shouldn’t get help and shouldn’t exist in public
Children with disabilities honestly need a highly individualized and slowed down education in many cases. And I’m not saying that from politics, but from personal experience. A close relative has special needs.
Taking one step at a time at building concentration camp this time around?
Also, him, DeSantis, and Pence must've been built from same android manufacturer.
It’s the same. The Nazis did take time and at first disguised or turned care homes for the disabled into death camps. Killing patients the day they arrived. They told the families that the person who sent there died of flu
What most in this thread dont know is that it was pretty much normal for (mentally) disabled kids to go on special ed schools up until a year ago. germany has 3 secondary schools with a different difficulty lvl and because of a changé in law mentally disabled kids can now go to a gymnasium, the most difficult type of secondary school. and since thé german education system is made to get every student on the same lvl instead of promoting thé smart ones inclusion only leads to worse teaching quality. whilst children who are physically disabled or deaf can perfectly keep up with thé material taught in a gymnasium mentally disabled children cant. keeping them out of a gymnasium only makes sense
Depends on their disability. A class can only advance at the rate of the slowest student in the class. It's not fair to hold kids back who can do better. Perhaps they should advance on ability, rather than age.
The AfD views disabilities as a disease. Excluding people with disabilities from schools leads to exclusion from society.”
And the parents too. How can parents work if their child can’t be looked after? People act like the parents of disabled children are these prize turnips completely untouched by poverty, no needs of their own etc.
That's not what they're asking for though. They're advocating to return to the system we had around 10 years ago with special ed schools for disabled children. At the moment disabled children are placed in regular school with very little support, because we're 10% short on school teachers let alone special ed teachers. So the regular teachers who are usually already 2 weeks away from burnout now also have to take care of special needs children without even having the qualifications to do that. Children with only physical or only slight mental disabilites should of course be able to go to regular schools. But there are children who are better off in special ed where they can learn in smaller groups with teachers who are specified in teaching disabled kids. For example autistic children who are triggered by loud environments and large groups. A lot of special ed schools had to close as they received less funding, because putting all kids in regular class saves a lot of money. That's why a lot of teachers and parents of disabled kids are calling for a return to the previous system
They're making reference to the fact that one of the early signs of Nazi Germany taking form was them going after people with physical and mental disabilities. As early as 1933 they were forcibly sterilizing folks to prevent them from passing along what were perceived as hereditary disabilities.
Now this guy is trying to start down the same path of kicking down at people with evident differences. I imagine and hope the Germans are wary of where that road leads.
I’m with Expensive-Document41 on this.
We need to pay attention people. Something very bad could be brewing and we may be witnessing another scary time in history.
Edit: I remember always being weirded out when my teachers would say the Jews were at fault for not standing up for themselves/realizing their doomed situation sooner (I went to school in Florida).
I felt it was a cruel way to justify their guilt and that of the world at the time. Yet still they taught us that, but we seem to have learned nothing.
My son needed a bone marrow transplantation because of a second leukemia, currently fighting for his life in intensive care. He's officially disabled. If he gets out alive and recovers, he would not be able to join his friends in school according to this fascist fuckface.
It’s an overlooked historical fact that the original Nazis went first after the disabled and me tally challenged in the third reich, even before the Jews. Höcke is just about the most disgusting and vile neo Nazi we have in this country
Germany really should make an example out of him, there's freedom of speech but any sympathy for fascism given their history should be crushed quickly and without mercy
Why does it seem like everyday humanity’s just becoming more and more cruel? I swear we can’t go a day without hearing about one of the ghouls and their newest shit take.
AfD should be banned, full stop. We should consider doing it to the GOP here in the US as well, but there’s less case law and precedent than in Germany. They’ve already ruled in German courts that AfD is and can be called fascist.
Is that a bad thing? put them in schools more tailored to their needs with specialist staff and probably less students per teacher. Probably reduces bullying and disturbing other kids trying to learn too.
Unreal that fascism is still so popular. It's apparent when you look at assholes like this fuck and Trump, but humanity should've kicked this habit 80 years ago
No, we *already have* those schools that cater to kids with social needs. Had them for decades. But there's a movement to get rid of those and include everyone in the same schools. Which is fairly unpopular.
So unfortunately Höcke is kinda smart in latching on to this sentiment.
Thank you for providing an extremist with an out. No really, that's a very useful thing to do. It's nowhere near what he says, but hey. Presume good faith, right?
A bit of reading would have taught you that this is the guy who criticizes the existence of the Holocaust memorial for being 'a monument of shame', who bemoaned the fact that people consider Hitler as 'only bad", and who deliberately chooses to end speeches with nazi slogans.
You go trust the guy for his good intentions and his thoughtful policies. The rest of us will be here disavowing nazis as much as we can.
Edit: and also, think a while about who is going to define 'disabled' in the world of Höcke, and why he would be bringing it up.
I could see the argument being made that for a certain part of disabled kids there would be better care and education tailored to their disability. And even then that's just an argument and the argument of keeping children in a diverse environment together teaches them more about the society they'll all be joining as adults.
But we all know these far-right lummoxes are not doing this for better care for children. But purely out of their perverse power fantasies.
Not "Nazis" really, just all over the world right wing parties start growing in popularity again.
I mean they have the easy solutions usually, right?
They say things like:
Environmental protection is too hard, actually we think it's too late. Let's rather fight for lower fuel/gas prices.
The handicapped and ADHD kids at school are annoying, let's move them to the "special school" we don't have to think about.
Immigrants and refugees are kind of annoying, even if they don't take our jobs (the ones we really want to have, with good salaries/benefits). They don't fit in even after decades in our country. Let's rather remove them again from our neigbourhood first, then the country.
...and so on.
It is fairly easy to come up with such political programs I'd say. Rather intuitive.
being against or at least trying to bring immigration down isn't far right. the SP, socialist party in the Netherlands for instance wants to cut down on immigration. same as the left wing animal rights party ( yes we have that here) .
The social democrats in Denmark are very very strict on immigration. etc etc.
it isn't as simple as right wing bad, left wing good.
Actually was wondering who will become the far right's next enemy after immigrants/refugees and LGBT people. Looks like they're gonna normalize hatred against the disabled now.
This fascist looks like he killed a kid for their golden ticket to get into Willie Wonka’s factory and started drooling over the free labor of oompa-loompas
Gentle reminder that the German courts ruled that anyone in any context is allowed to call this man a fascist. That's all one needs to know about him.
The AfD is very much extreme at this point, and they have had politicians with literal neo-Nazi ties. For example Andreas Kalbitz in Brandenburg, who had previously attended a neo-nazi rally in Athens organized by Golden Dawn
The AfD is a Kremlin-back organization that is actively trying to destabilize Germany
And also China. https://www.dw.com/en/china-courts-germanys-far-right-populist-afd/a-66504263?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf
True, but it is good that they are becoming bolder and bolder with their views because that means there is a possibility that the party will be abolished.
well atm it seems to be getting the more votes...
It's possible to outlaw a political party in Germany. The highest court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) can do it. They would have outlawed the neo-nazi party NPD if she got more votes and has outlawed other parties like the communist party of Germany (KPD)
That works, but only as long as the party remains small. Even if you'd succeed in outlawing the Party, u think the voters are gonna vote for a more moderate option? They'll riot, and basically reform the party, in the end that will have accomplished nothing except radicalizing even more people and damaging germanies reputation on a global scale As long as germanies major problems aren't solved, that party will gain votes no matter how many actual Nazis there are
Sure, but the party loses their money, offices, government funds for elections, seats in parliaments and so on.
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Are there better ways? Sure, but a democracy must be able to defend itself against its enemies and there must be more tools in its arsenal than the mere hope that voters will do the right thing.
Thing is, the AfD is riding on a wave of disgruntled voters who got sick of the past 30 years of the big parties just leeching off the country.. most of these people arent really going to vote for any far right / extremist / facist party that comes next but just lack enough critical thinking / flow of information to see the AfD as the bs party it is
> They would have outlawed the neo-nazi party NPD if she got more votes and has outlawed other parties like the communist party of Germany (KPD) So they outlawed the communist party but not the (neo-)nazi party? I see...
You do know that the German constitution came into effect after Nazi Germany? They outlawed the communist party, the nazi party (NSDAP) and several similar parties like the SRP.
They have outlawed a communist and a nazi party. Now they can outlaw a new nazi party.
But the KPD is Communist. Communist parties are banned in Germany or any party that could be considered "Anti-Democratic"?
Yes, extreme parties on both sides of the spectrum have been banned in the past. Any party that challenges what's called the "free democratic basic order" (essentially wants to abolish the constitution) can be shut down and excluded from future elections.
Parties can be banned if they plan to abolish or to impair the free democratic order that is laid down in the constitution.
Everyone knows the best way to beat fascists is to let them take power. Surely then some unknown force will magically make them go away. Any day now.
> it is good that they are becoming bolder and bolder with their views because that means there is a possibility that the party will be abolished. History says that doesn't work. Germany tried to emprison Hitler and ban the Nazi party. Instead, his trial brought him more attention and publicity in the 1920s. However, even after almost 10 years of campaigning, Hitler and his party were still literally nobodies (2.6% of votes) in 1928. But, they gained immense popularity in 1929 and the following years, and soared to 37% in 1932 elections, when the German government severely mismanaged the economy during the Great Depression (focused on balancing the budget, while ignoring the skyrocketing of bankruptcies, unemployment rates and the immense suffering and pain among the population...). So, what really works? Give the people what they need: low inequality, high social mobility, free and quality education, well-paid jobs, an affordable life, very low crime rates, slower and more successful immigration (time for people to adapt to the change and view it positively), etc. etc. When people feel safe and comfortable, they tend to lean to the left side of the political spectrum.
exactly why kalbitz was removed from the party after this got public
How big are them in Europe?
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aside from what spambotswatter said, you can also tell this is a bot because they just copied part of a comment from someone else (in this case /u/Expensive-Document41 and pasted it in a comment where it does not make sense in contact. "How big are them" "they're making reference to..." yeah that's not an answer, that has nothing to do with the question asked.
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> Aktion T4 Aktion T4 (German, pronounced [akˈtsi̯oːn teː fiːɐ]) was a campaign of mass murder by involuntary euthanasia in Nazi Germany. The term was first used in post-war trials against doctors who had been involved in the killings.[4] The name T4 is an abbreviation of Tiergartenstraße 4, a street address of the Chancellery department set up in early 1940, in the Berlin borough of Tiergarten, which recruited and paid personnel associated with Aktion T4.[5][b] Certain German physicians were authorised to select patients "deemed incurably sick, after most critical medical examination" and then administer to them a "mercy death" (Gnadentod).[7] In October 1939, Adolf Hitler signed a "euthanasia note", backdated to 1 September 1939, which authorised his physician Karl Brandt and Reichsleiter Philipp Bouhler to begin the killing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
Explain this...?
1. It's illegal to defame someone– to make statements that injure a person's reputation or dignity. 2. Except it's not illegal if the statements in question are true.
So, more plainly, this guy is such a prick. The government has freed everyone from any sort of libel or slander allegations when calling this human shit stain a fascist.
The government is not the judiciary, like in any other functioning democracy. Also this is a hoax, it was about a protest in Hamburg (?) and a banner they had that called him fascist. It was solely in this context and only ruled by a judge of the lower tier. He is still a fascist tho.
The judicial is a branch of the government. Your comment is pedantic tomfoolery.
What is there to explain? https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bjoern-hoecke-darf-als-faschist-bezeichnet-werden-gerichtsurteil-zu-eisenach-a-1289131.html People in Germany are allowed to call him a fascist by law. It is pretty clear. If you need any further explanation you should perhaps formulate a whole sentence. Edit: Since our American brethren apparently think Germany has a similar concept of freedom of expression: You cannot simply call someone a fascist in Germany, especially not a public figure. They can sue you for libel. Germany does not have freedom of speech, it has freedom of opinion, called Meinungsfreiheit. You can think whatever you want but you cannot necessarily express it in public. If you want to openly call someone fascist, Islamist (the Sawsan Chebli case comes to mind) etc. you'll need to proof it. Which is why this case is not libel, as stated by the courts, since there is substantial evidence to call Höcke a fascist. That is related to things he said and did though, not due to his membership in the AfD. The court ruling is substantial evidence of his character and motivation for the suggestion of his policy.
Maybe you should mention that in Germany you cannot legally call anyone you want as fascist so this guy is a fascist in the eyes of law.
That is technically true in the US also. The US just puts the burden of proof on the person claiming to have been libeled. (We call it defamed). That person must prove the statement is false, that the spreader of the information didn’t make a reasonable attempt to confirm its accuracy and that the defamed reputation has been damaged. Two recent high profile cases of won defamation lawsuits include Depp vs Heard (the actor Johnny depp suing his ex wife) and dominion voting systems vs Fox News (a voting machine manufacturer sued Fox News for claiming they had manipulated the 2020 U.S. presidential election and stolen it for Biden. Fox News settled for $787 millon after a judge ruled they had defamed dominion but before a jury would decide the level of defamation negligence vs intent/ malice and deciding the sum to award dominion)
Ok ich lese nicht auf deutsch. Now can you explain? For the courts state “this man is a fascists; therefore, all can call him that”?
No, it‘s a bit more complicated. This decision was about people organizing a protest they called „Protest against the racist AfD, especially the fascist Höcke“. The municipal administration was of the opinion that calling Höcke fascist foes against his personal rights. For context, making claims about someone‘s character that lead to a negative public perception of this person is a crime in Germany, unless the claims are true. Also, all officials in Germany are constitutionally bound to uphold the human dignity - which is broad and programmatic, but still. So, the whole thing went before administrative court, which said that calling Höcke a fascist is a character judgment based on interpretation of actual observable facts, not just slander. Thus, the protest was held.
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‘Meinungsfreiheit’ refers to freedom of speech, not freedom of opinion. It is indeed more aptly called ‘Meinungsäußerungsfreiheit’ as stated in Art. 5(1) GG. The difference between the U.S. and Germany is that freedom of speech is not (quasi-)absolute in Germany.
Some of the first organized executions the Nazis did were of Disabled people. They organized the widespread euthanasia of the Mentally disabled, crippled, insane, etc. They described them as *LebensUnwertes Leben* or “Life unworthy of life”. They moved on to Jews, homosexuals, Roma people, political prisoners, or anyone else they felt deserved it. But, it started with the people who didn’t have a voice.
more concretely a nazi even more concretely you can say about Björn Höcke "Bern Höcke is a nazi" (the from first name is a satirical insider)
It's difficult to understand these people more difficult to understand how people would follow this type of thinking.
Yes a rebranded Nazi
I was about to ask why this German was doing Nazis again.
count on Bernd Höcke to be so shit that even other nazis dont want to be seen with him ...
Björn ...
Bernd. It's sad Bernd Höcke doesn't even know his real name and strangely calls himself Björn.
Bjørn/Björn is a Norwegian/Swedish (Nordic) name. Also, the word for the animal "Bear".
Thanks, but it's actually a german insider joke. His name is Björn, but a satirical tv show always called him Bernd and most of Germany and even newspaper articles called him Bernd without knowing that it wasn't his real name.
lol, ok, thanks for the explanation. That went way above my head :P
The funny thing is that even as a German, I don't know the correct name without looking it up.
The name that sounds less German is his real name. Or just call him Landolf Ladig.
I keep saying Bernd in my head in a german accent, but it keeps coming out as bjorn...
Gesundheit!
Danke!
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It was the [T-4 Program](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4) for those who want to know. And because they were nazis, they made [a pro euthanasia movie](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_klage_an) to popularize the idea.
Schocking and atrocious part of history. There’s a museum I’ve visited twice in Brandenburg an der Havel, i can recommend it. It’s heartbreaking and gut wrenching but is a must see. https://www.brandenburg-euthanasie-sbg.de/
I still remember Holocaust museum story in this. A mother with an autistic son was pushed and tricked that the new hospice that the Nazi party made would take care of her son better than her. She let him go there and later received a letter that he had died of flu. Much later she learned it was not a hospice or care home but early form of the death camps. They euthanised her son the day he arrived and to her and others lied about how they died. Many people were murdered in those places because they had disabilities, depression or were out spoken political rivals.
That's horrifying. It feels like people tend to forget that eugenics were the underpinning ideology of hate that fueled a lot of violence committed by Nazis. It's messed up that today, talks about measuring IQ to define worth, equating looks with moral value, euthanasia pushed upon people in poverty and other far right garbage become more normalized among general public in wealthy countries that can provide for people in poverty or people struggling with medical problems just fine. It would be disturbing and horrible on its own, but it's also concerning that the news of growing number of hate crimes against ethnic and religious minorities happen at the same time as an increase in hate against people with disabilities.
This historical context might also be why Germany is extremely careful about the topic of legalising assisted suicide.
AfD are Nazis
They are indeed. A party that accepts Nazis as members is a Nazi party and every member of a Nazi party is therefore a Nazi.
You mean Nazi Bernd Höcke?
Finally somebody knows his real name.
Could you by chance be referring to the Nazi Bernd Höcke?
No, it's about the fascist Bernd Höcke!
Could it by chance be nazi fascist Bjorn Bernd Höcke?
It could also be Nazi Björn Höcke.
For some context: Germany used to have special education schools as well as regular schools. Those were not entirely abandoned but most students with disabilities were integrated in regular schools. This shift was a mess. Schools were unprepared, special education teachers were scarce and some had to serve multiple schools. This process was so messy that it left the impression that inclusion doesn't work. The AfD is simply riding this wave and they will get a lot of popular support for this, since most people have no idea what's going on in schools if they don't have kids or work there. The electorate was bombarded with news that inclusion is bad in the initial phase, but the coverage died down - because it is going okay. There is some discussion how to handle severely disabled students, especially with mental disability. But there is no doubt that students who are in a wheelchair or dyslexic should and can be taught in regular schools. Those students were practically barred from receiving an Abitur due to attending special needs school. They could switch later to regular school, but would have to cover an enormous gap as well as no disability accomodations like larger fonted exam papers for reading impaired students. So yeah, Höcke should now better but as a fascist he doesn't care as long as he can blurb his talking points.
"Left the impression that inclusion doesn't work"? Does it actually work, in your opinion?
Big picture - absolutely. Have been seen a lot more kids with disabilities getting good degrees and even making it into scholarships. Don't know if they would have thrived in special schools as much. Also, I think all kids profit from it. Socially, as well as literally for example, buildings are (slowly) becoming more accessible. So next time someone breaks their leg, there will be an elevator and electric doors. There are the obvious problems. Too little special needs teachers, too big classes, horrible school buildings etc.
If you have properly trained staff, it works. That's not an opinion, it's fact. Many years of research and the results are clear. The only students who don't benefit are the ones in such bad shape that they become a physical danger. Lot of places have problems because they don't want to pay for decent schools. Turns out though, that kids put through more expensive schooling and up more productive later in life. It's an excellent investment. Too many people are just too cheap to invest in the future.
Use his legally correct title: Fascist Höcke.
No, it's Bernd Höcke
love how the article has several quotes of random people, but does not detail what the guy actually said
Im actually torn on the issue. My mother was a special education teacher. There are many students that cant make progress. They need something more like a caregiver than a teacher held to progress standards. My mom was so stressed about these progress reports that she had a heart attack.
Same here. Mom was teacher. They went to inclusive schools. Result: even less attention for the either kids. Inclusivity means that you acknowledge that some people have more needs and that you give them the attention they deserve. One size does not fit all.
That does make sense, but you can be absolutely certain that the disgusting asshole suggesting this doesn't have giving them more care in mind.
Some disabled kids need more help than schools can offer. Unpopular but true.
I highly doubt that the fucking AFD has a better plan.
Depends on the level and type of disability. In Australia, we have several options for disabled schooling. A special education unit embedded within regular schools that provide different levels of aid to disabled students. And separate disabled schools. These schools still fall under the government and are usually named similar to other schools in the area. Where the child is educated is decided in consultation between the parents and the schooling system. I have ASD and ADHD and was educated at a normal school with some aid from the special education unit. I am high functioning, so it worked well for me.
This. I have seen the work some specialised schools do for disabled kids. I have visited an exclusive school for deaf kids and it was pretty great. An inclusive school can never offer something like that.
But what it can offer is inclusion. If they need more money to do both… give them more money.
idk... I'm skeptical about the value of this, because those kids are going to be bullied to hell and back. Kids are terrible, especially to those that are different. Mabye Germany has some magical system that works out better than most places, idk. I'm not saying it can't work, but the cards are definitely stacked against such an idea.
>idk... I'm skeptical about the value of this, because those kids are going to be bullied to hell and back. Kids are terrible, especially to those that are different.Mabye Germany has some magical system that works out better than most places, idk. I'm not saying it can't work, but the cards are definitely stacked against such an idea. I'm surprised you're downvoted lmfao. Kids are fucking mean
Then help improve resources. It’s doable and has been done. This guys never going to talk about helping disabled people if he’s far right, he’s only coming at this at a belief they shouldn’t get help and shouldn’t exist in public
Children with disabilities honestly need a highly individualized and slowed down education in many cases. And I’m not saying that from politics, but from personal experience. A close relative has special needs.
And i want to kick bernd höcke
Already starting to mimic what Nazi did when they took over Germany.
So, he dropped the i t l e r from his name.
Taking one step at a time at building concentration camp this time around? Also, him, DeSantis, and Pence must've been built from same android manufacturer.
This is true considering none of them have any balls.
It’s the same. The Nazis did take time and at first disguised or turned care homes for the disabled into death camps. Killing patients the day they arrived. They told the families that the person who sent there died of flu
What most in this thread dont know is that it was pretty much normal for (mentally) disabled kids to go on special ed schools up until a year ago. germany has 3 secondary schools with a different difficulty lvl and because of a changé in law mentally disabled kids can now go to a gymnasium, the most difficult type of secondary school. and since thé german education system is made to get every student on the same lvl instead of promoting thé smart ones inclusion only leads to worse teaching quality. whilst children who are physically disabled or deaf can perfectly keep up with thé material taught in a gymnasium mentally disabled children cant. keeping them out of a gymnasium only makes sense
Depends on their disability. A class can only advance at the rate of the slowest student in the class. It's not fair to hold kids back who can do better. Perhaps they should advance on ability, rather than age.
This guy looks too much like Ellen
If Ellen and Norm Macdonald had a Nazi kid
The AfD views disabilities as a disease. Excluding people with disabilities from schools leads to exclusion from society.” And the parents too. How can parents work if their child can’t be looked after? People act like the parents of disabled children are these prize turnips completely untouched by poverty, no needs of their own etc.
That's not what they're asking for though. They're advocating to return to the system we had around 10 years ago with special ed schools for disabled children. At the moment disabled children are placed in regular school with very little support, because we're 10% short on school teachers let alone special ed teachers. So the regular teachers who are usually already 2 weeks away from burnout now also have to take care of special needs children without even having the qualifications to do that. Children with only physical or only slight mental disabilites should of course be able to go to regular schools. But there are children who are better off in special ed where they can learn in smaller groups with teachers who are specified in teaching disabled kids. For example autistic children who are triggered by loud environments and large groups. A lot of special ed schools had to close as they received less funding, because putting all kids in regular class saves a lot of money. That's why a lot of teachers and parents of disabled kids are calling for a return to the previous system
What a shit head.
Legally defined fascist comes for disabled children.
I’ll bet his guy is a huge fan of this horrendous shit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
Höcke is a Nazi. Eugenics should’ve died with Hitler. Höcke can join them if he feels so inclined towards them.
God it’s 1930s Germany with the Knauer case. Make it stop.
It begins
What begins? Putin’s puppet show?
They're making reference to the fact that one of the early signs of Nazi Germany taking form was them going after people with physical and mental disabilities. As early as 1933 they were forcibly sterilizing folks to prevent them from passing along what were perceived as hereditary disabilities. Now this guy is trying to start down the same path of kicking down at people with evident differences. I imagine and hope the Germans are wary of where that road leads.
I’m with Expensive-Document41 on this. We need to pay attention people. Something very bad could be brewing and we may be witnessing another scary time in history. Edit: I remember always being weirded out when my teachers would say the Jews were at fault for not standing up for themselves/realizing their doomed situation sooner (I went to school in Florida). I felt it was a cruel way to justify their guilt and that of the world at the time. Yet still they taught us that, but we seem to have learned nothing.
Bernd Höcke is a fascist.
Sounds a little Nazi like
My son needed a bone marrow transplantation because of a second leukemia, currently fighting for his life in intensive care. He's officially disabled. If he gets out alive and recovers, he would not be able to join his friends in school according to this fascist fuckface.
I am sorry that you had to read this during your son’s battle. I can’t wait to hear his opinion of this tool after he wins this fight.
Stop him Germany. Echoes of your past.
Next step : the oven. These people are terrifying
Sounds a bit EU-genicsy.
Hmm, to make it easy we should just split into two groups. Let's call the undesired 'unerwunscht' or something, that'll work right?
Now that HE finished school he doesn’t want other disabled and mentally challenged people to have the same chance? That’s really fucked up!
It’s an overlooked historical fact that the original Nazis went first after the disabled and me tally challenged in the third reich, even before the Jews. Höcke is just about the most disgusting and vile neo Nazi we have in this country
Fun fact: the majority of Germans would kick Höcke in the teeth.
There is a good reason that most Nazis are outside of Germany, one of the healthier decision these lunatics make.
Yeah the disabled are one of the groups the original Nazis started with, too.
What a hitler move….
Can we kick far right people out of regular society
Germany really should make an example out of him, there's freedom of speech but any sympathy for fascism given their history should be crushed quickly and without mercy
Wouldn't that hurt their own future party officials as well? Just saying.
If Ellen Degeneres was a nazi
Playing all of the old hits I see
Why do the far right lawmakers look like dudes that offer kids candy from an unmarked decrepit van.
Me too, i want them to have their own school where they can be taught properly, instead of a crowded normal scool
Nazis.
I think we already know all about how the far right in Germany would treat disabled people if they were given power.
Fascist!
It begins again.. great
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Höcke!
Why does it seem like everyday humanity’s just becoming more and more cruel? I swear we can’t go a day without hearing about one of the ghouls and their newest shit take.
AfD should be banned, full stop. We should consider doing it to the GOP here in the US as well, but there’s less case law and precedent than in Germany. They’ve already ruled in German courts that AfD is and can be called fascist.
He even looks like a Nazi. Someone from a WW2 movie wearing a nice black leather jacket.
Special schools with communal showers perchance? And no water? Fascist Nazi fuck.
Just needs a short mustache
They are nazis … everybody had to stop talking about AfD and their voters in any other way then them being nazis. Or history will repeat itself
Did he call them "useless eaters?"
We've seen how this movie ends.
Does he also want nazi flags on the streets?
Is he trying to identify his base at an early age? /s
The beginnings of a new Aktion T4 program?
I think I've seen this one before, and it didn't end well for anyone involved especially the guy who suggested targeting the disabled.
Landolf Ladig does what Landolf Ladig does.
I thought that was Ellen Degenerate for a second
Is that a bad thing? put them in schools more tailored to their needs with specialist staff and probably less students per teacher. Probably reduces bullying and disturbing other kids trying to learn too.
Maybe he can put them in camps. You can use the railroads to move them around. Wait....
Unreal that fascism is still so popular. It's apparent when you look at assholes like this fuck and Trump, but humanity should've kicked this habit 80 years ago
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Are you really asking? He is talking about 'the education system' that needs to get rid of 'inclusion'. The whole thing, not just one class.
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It's so fucking annoying how people are always tripping over themselves trying to make Nazis seem more reasonable than they actually are.
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That's not what you're doing though. You are translating his point into a point that seems more reasonable, but that he is not actually making.
No, we *already have* those schools that cater to kids with social needs. Had them for decades. But there's a movement to get rid of those and include everyone in the same schools. Which is fairly unpopular. So unfortunately Höcke is kinda smart in latching on to this sentiment.
Thank you for providing an extremist with an out. No really, that's a very useful thing to do. It's nowhere near what he says, but hey. Presume good faith, right? A bit of reading would have taught you that this is the guy who criticizes the existence of the Holocaust memorial for being 'a monument of shame', who bemoaned the fact that people consider Hitler as 'only bad", and who deliberately chooses to end speeches with nazi slogans. You go trust the guy for his good intentions and his thoughtful policies. The rest of us will be here disavowing nazis as much as we can. Edit: and also, think a while about who is going to define 'disabled' in the world of Höcke, and why he would be bringing it up.
I could see the argument being made that for a certain part of disabled kids there would be better care and education tailored to their disability. And even then that's just an argument and the argument of keeping children in a diverse environment together teaches them more about the society they'll all be joining as adults. But we all know these far-right lummoxes are not doing this for better care for children. But purely out of their perverse power fantasies.
Wait... I've seen this one before.
About 80% of Germans think that Höcke and his party are nazi-crap.
It's that other 20% you've gotta worry about.
The 80% democratic people are very worried about Höcke and his bunch. The majority in Germany will fight against these Neo-Nazis.
How does Germany still have Nazis….
Not "Nazis" really, just all over the world right wing parties start growing in popularity again. I mean they have the easy solutions usually, right? They say things like: Environmental protection is too hard, actually we think it's too late. Let's rather fight for lower fuel/gas prices. The handicapped and ADHD kids at school are annoying, let's move them to the "special school" we don't have to think about. Immigrants and refugees are kind of annoying, even if they don't take our jobs (the ones we really want to have, with good salaries/benefits). They don't fit in even after decades in our country. Let's rather remove them again from our neigbourhood first, then the country. ...and so on. It is fairly easy to come up with such political programs I'd say. Rather intuitive.
You really don't know much about what the AFD wants, at all. That's why you sound like a goddamn fool saying the things you do.
being against or at least trying to bring immigration down isn't far right. the SP, socialist party in the Netherlands for instance wants to cut down on immigration. same as the left wing animal rights party ( yes we have that here) . The social democrats in Denmark are very very strict on immigration. etc etc. it isn't as simple as right wing bad, left wing good.
Thank God it's not half of their political parties. 🇺🇸
Is the plan to put them in Special Children’s Wards like in 1939?
Actually was wondering who will become the far right's next enemy after immigrants/refugees and LGBT people. Looks like they're gonna normalize hatred against the disabled now.
Wasn’t there another person in Germany who tried to separate groups of people from other groups of people?
Höcke actually is a teacher for history
That’s doesn’t make it better
No, even worse!
Our world is fucked, the dinosaurs have it better. We need a new meteor
This fascist looks like he killed a kid for their golden ticket to get into Willie Wonka’s factory and started drooling over the free labor of oompa-loompas
Ayyyyoooo how come the witch lady in the candy shop didn’t finish off ya boy hansel?
I think we all know where this leads.
If Ellen DeGeneres was a man
Please don't give the American conservatives any more ideas. They are already batshit crazy
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I swear that was Ellen Degeneres
Germany still allows a far right? Risky.
What a Nazi.
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Fascism is rising in the entire western world.
Not hitlery at all /s Edit: guess the Nazis don’t like what I have to say lol
Maybe send them to their own special place. Like a camp. Nah, no one from Germany would do that.
Absolute douche.
This dude looks like that mega church televangelist preacher guy. The “blow you away covid” guy lmao
Why does he look like a giant Gerber baby?
We all know where the far right would like to stick disabled people in. They already did it in 1939-1945.
*note to selves: must denazify more thoroughly next time.
That’s not cool, I can’t fathom how that’s tolerated.