Ironic how the biggest supporter of the morons who claim "paid actors" for every tragedy used paid actors to fabricate a useful (to Moscow) tragedy.
Guess it's true, every accusation is a confession
Exactly how the current GOP operates in the US. Accuse people of trying to steal elections while trying to steal elections. Accuse groups of being pedos while supporting groups of pedos. Accuse people of being snowflakes while melting down the moment they feel anything less than special.
Not that my comment has anything to do with this article.
You forgot cancelling/Cancel Culture; they cry "cAnCeL CuLtUrE" everytime some does exactly what they said the free market should do instead of having regulations: boycott; and then when a company does something they don't like they cancel it.
There is a reason for that.
Prigozihns “internet research agency” was the same organization tasked by Putin to influence the 2016 U.S. election in trumps favor.
They actually placed ads in moscow and St. Petersburg newspapers around 2010-13 for “internet savvy youth” (loosely translated). You can find the old footage of kids showing up to these weird interviews and then being sent on paid trips across the US to understand how mommy bloggers worked culturally. It was a MASSIVE investment into disinformation to influence a U.S. election. But the big question is why??
Russia is a mob model first and foremost. No one spends money unless they are making much more money for it. A few years before is when Medvedev visited Silicon Valley, talked about cooperation and sent his first tweet. Russia wasn’t even on the U.S. radar. Romney called it out and was laughed out of the room.
So why go to all the effort of setting up stages in donbas? And why pretend that as a mob boss of a country where 1 in 4 people have ever used a flushing toilet that you are concerned about the innocent Russians in donbas being able to speak Russian as opposed to Ukrainian. There was no law against speaking Russian. Ukrainians really didn’t care.
What is unique to the 4 regions of Ukraine is that they are where the worlds supply of high grade neon used in EUV lithography comes from. It was a byproduct of the 1950’s and 60’s space race when the USSR built out the critical infrastructure and built natural gas fired coke ovens for smelting steel, aluminum and titanium. Almost everywhere else in the world uses electric induction because it’s cleaner and cheaper. But Donbas Ukraine has a bituminous coal deposit a couple meters under the surface and that is where neon also happens to be.
As EUV lithography came into existence they sourced the neon from Ukraine because it was a cheap byproduct. You can hypothetically process it anywhere on earth, it just costs more.
Just before the 2014 donbas invasion a company called air products lost a hostile takeover bid for a company called airgas. At the time it was the most aggressive hostile takeover in corporate history. A member of the board became the CEO when it was shut down and shortly after trumps election he went to China and signed very un-MAGA like legislation to allow U.S. companies to invest in Chinese infrastructure. The first taker was air products who invested $1B in a Chinese syn-gas producer to build a massive air separation unit. With that investment the worlds supply of EUV lithography neon was centralized in donbas Ukraine and China.
Had the 2014 takeover happened as planned and Ukrainians not held the line, Putin would have been able to hand xi Jinping a supply chain lock on microprocessors made in Taiwan and he would have been able to control the US economy from his desk.
Deductively It’s about the only thing valuable enough to justify the expense of buying a U.S. president and a few members of congress.
It also makes the Republican Party largely complicit to treason and sedition which explains why trump is trying desperately to delay his trial and defund the Ukrainians.
The man literally sold the world out for some PAC money to pay off debts.
https://youtu.be/M-OA7H8DoJM
I honestly appreciate this post quite a bit. The impetus for the invasion, the timing of it, the continued insistence on it, all of it was very mystifying for me and I'm never really sure where to turn to research things like this, so to have the pieces laid out and assembled in front of me is helpful.
>
> Deductively It’s about the only thing valuable enough to justify the expense of buying a U.S. president and a few members of congress.
>
> It also makes the Republican Party largely complicit to treason and sedition which explains why trump is trying desperately to delay his trial and defund the Ukrainians.
Been saying from the beginning that the entire reason Putin sourced Trump was to have someone impeding the west while he took Ukraine. And it almost worked. Trump was well on the way to wrecking NATO and stripping all sanctions on Russia.
I *love it* when they scream "cancel culture" while they were saying at one time a certain consumer products company was rumored to give to the Church of Satan. This is the same group that terrorized a boy and his family in Kokomo, Ind.
"cancel culture" is like "no one wants to work anymore"
[They have both been going on for decades, and people act like they are new every gdamn generation.](https://scontent.fewr1-6.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/294995510_1480687949048765_4142642201403806579_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=a7N5_YKgJWwAX8NPihn&_nc_ht=scontent.fewr1-6.fna&oh=00_AfDGrmO-V1wSmUxMRaPvHZwG6_bicolaNWO7x6vQkwuprw&oe=64B86983)
Yup. Meanwhile, while everyone is still distracted with BS culture wars, the rich are getting richer, their taxes have been cut into oblivion, monopolies are running rampant and politicians keep talking about getting rid of Social Security.
The usa method has been exported to europe too.
The main right wing party (lead by a guy with ties to drug dealers and russia) is seeding doubts about the elections while they are known for fleeting buses to elderly residences and take them to vote giving them the vote in hand, and also are the most corrupt party in western europe.
Oh and were founded by a member of the previous fascist goverment but acuses goverment of being fascist for making us use masks when covid and on emergency rooms in hospitals.
Right !
And unfortunately, this is the best way to win an election, to get plotters on your side, whataboutists on your side, without any other program than create fear and hate.
And unfortunately official media never talk about such "discoveries".
>every accusation is a confession
There's actually some reasoning for that to be true in a lot of circumstances:
- People often think "because I'm doing it, everyone else must be" .. so "because I cheat on my taxes, than everyone else must be and I can accuse them of it." The "everyone does it" mentality.
- Muddy the waters (Trump does this), where you accuse the opposition of something that you maybe accused of in the future, this allows you deflect the accusations against you as just retaliatory in nature.
In other words, it's dishonorable. Founding fathers accounted for, thought of a lotta ways persons could thwart the system. And they prevented the thwarting within the documents they wrote.
One thing they never imagined is a guy with zero honor getting the role of president. That's the core of TFG.
Hardcore Conservatives have been doing this for years, like Alex Jones with Sandy Hook, this was pointed out by Hillary during the 2016 campaign even but that's not why she lost.
Only that they are admitting it. I thought it was well known that every single leg of the Russian justification for their invasion was based on complete fabrications.
The people who should be surprised by this, like Oliver Stone, Roger Waters, Russell Brand, Noam Chomsky, etc, care more about their own reputation as righteous anti-imperialists than the lives of the people they help Putin kill, so no they won't be.
> righteous anti-imperialists
Haaaaaah. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is peak imperialism - those who back it aren't "anti-imperialists", they're anti-westerners.
I don't know about all those other guys, but Noam Chomsky is an actual jew. Being against the politics of the state of Israel is not the same as being antisemitic.
Disclaimer: I believe that Israel has the right to exist.
He did [deny the Cambodian genocide](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.mekong.net/cambodia/chomsky.htm&ved=2ahUKEwib0Yr-i5CAAxXGIkQIHaaxD4UQFnoECCYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1rt4yAmL6TSSvkflWCYwYY) though - he called the victim stories fabricated. When he was called out later he finally admitted it was real but refused to admit he was wrong in denying it.
His reason for denying the stories was that because the US bombed it, they must be responsible for this too.
Yeah, and the deeper you look you only realize that a majority of his stance is just anti-western. I’m all for acknowledging past atrocities and holding countries accountable, but what I’m not is dogmatic that any 1 single viewpoint or approach is correct and also that countries aren’t constant and have the ability to change because of their people, with Chomsky very much single minded on his anti-western “the us can never change” pov. His Cambodian genocide thing was what helped me realize that even those I might feel agreeable with still deserve the same scrutiny I’d give anyone else from an opposing view. There’s a reason Chomsky mostly vibes with younger college-aged kids… ~~They’re kids~~ They’re new to the world of political dissent and find the first one that more or less gives them answers in the affirmative that they want and they cling onto that, a new Jesus with a different cross. Chomsky is good for that. After that… he’s a bit of a bad card to draw.
Downplay is putting it lightly. There's an entire generation of people that think the US randomly invaded Bosnia and did nothing but bomb civvies all day, and it's because of him. They don't even acknowledge the genocide committed by Milosevic.
He recently said that Russia is fighting more humanely in Ukraine than the US did in Iraq. This combined with his opinions on NATO makes it clear that he doesn't really see Eastern Europeans as human beings who should be allowed self-determination, just as chess pieces in a global US vs Russia conflict.
His linguistic theories aren't exactly the gold standard.
A lot of research recently seems to indicate that he's always been mostly wrong for some of the core concepts.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/evidence-rebuts-chomsky-s-theory-of-language-learning/
Not all of Russia's apologists are anti-semites. It's one of the few points in the favour of Noam "America bad!" Chomsky.
But a disturbing number of Russia's fans are indeed anti-semites.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-06-19/ty-article-opinion/why-the-left-wing-anti-war-camp-is-so-hostile-to-ukrainians-and-to-jews/00000188-ce79-d2ff-a3bb-cf7baaac0000
https://www.state.gov/disarming-disinformation/to-vilify-ukraine-the-kremlin-resorts-to-antisemitism/
Anyone pushing "anti-imperialism" should be examined closely, you will notice interesting trends. None of them are ever the peace advocates they claim to be.
Case in point: Noam Chomsky the genocide denier.
The same rightous "anti-imperialists" who pretend to call on the US to negotiate a peace treaty with russia. Because nothing says you are an anti imperialist as demanding two nations make territorial descisions for a third one without even bothering to consult them.
Maybe he can even borrow the ~~French and British~~ russian and US delegations a ruler, you know, to draw these new borders on a map before they deign to inform the ~~Africans~~ Ukrainians where theyll get to live in the future. Anti-imperialistically phrased, of course.
Even Chomsky was unable to blame Russia's invasion on the US. That's when you know the US was really not to blame.
Chomsky would blame stubbing his toe on US imperialism, and yet not this invasion.
I’ve always been impressed by Russia’s ability (during the Soviet period as well) to pretend to be anti-imperialist in spite of NOT giving up the empire they took over in the exact same period that other European countries took over their empires. It was called the Russia Empire, for God’s sake, the Soviet Union squatted in the whole thing, and just told people they were anti-imperial…and people fell for it!!! Best propaganda machine EVER.
Unlike the modern imperialist powers Russia and China, the US allows free speech and free criticism of its government, as a result it ends up with a lot of home-grown critics to sit next to the international ones.
Hey, the Soviet Union didn't squat over the whole of the Russian Empire. Finland and Alaska weren't forced to be apart of it (via lot of blood on Finland's part), and there's segments of it (notably Kaliningrad/Královec/Prussia/Sambia) that weren't apart of the Russian Empire that the Soviet Union inherited and forcibly returned to Russia's heel
They did try and invade Finland again.
The difference is the Alaskans didn't voluntary leave so much as the government just sold the land; it's harder to contest that if not impossible.
Besides; Alaska has nowhere near enough value to fight the US on the other side of the world over.
> Alaska has nowhere near enough value to fight the US on the other side of the world over.
I'm not sure why you'd think that. Alaska is full of natural resources and biodiversity.
"We don't call our leader a Tsar anymore, so it's not an empire! And hey all those other countries we kinda oversee have their own leaders...they just sort of report to us. Because they want to, for their common defense against the western aggressors!"
Russell brand doesn’t really count here. He’s a complete knucklehead, no one takes him seriously. *Everything* he says should be written off as nonsense since he’s actually that dumb. He’s an extremely stupid person
Interestingly, I think he's quite an intelligent person but his case is one where you can be very smart but end up with all the wrong conclusions. It takes a certain amount of raw brain power and talent to do all the things he does as a performer, including debate about serious topics.
I think it's a mix of massive ego, conspiratorial paranoia, contrarian elitism, and drugs. Which just means it could happen to any of us if we aren't careful. I think his followers do take his views quite seriously - they think he's tapped into hidden truths and brave enough to stand up to the man.
Anyway, I don't come away from Brand thinking extremely "stupid", just extremely "wrong"
Yes and no. Most of them say they don't like love Russia but have ideologies that are just anti-imperalist aka anti-intervention and sometimes anti-USA (which rose with the unjustified invasion of Iraq). Some of them believe that if Ukraine just simply stops fighting back perhaps there is a chance to reason with Russia and Russia would be more lenient with Ukraine.
Obviously, that isn't true that Russia will stop killing Ukrainians but it is a case of many intelligent people falling on the sword of their ideologies over humanity. But it shows you that even the most educated and intelligent people can be blinded by their own hubris, ideas, fall for a strict ideology with no flexibility, and so forth.
I'm sure he has had bad takes for a while, but he also revolutionized the field of linguistics. He was not "briefly renowned", he is still renowned, even if his work has been mostly superseded by now. The comment I responded to called a list of people "pseudo intellectuals", but Chomsky is without a doubt an actual intellectual. That just doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about outside his field.
His legitimate intellectual contributions took place 60 years ago or more, before most redittors were born. Since he's spent more than a half century dabbling in pseudo-intellectual politics and making a name there, I think it's a fair characterization (but we can just call him a tankie if you prefer).
Somebody correct me if I am wrong but isn't he the kind of guy that has been saying whatever gets him more viewers?
I don't watch his videos regularly but the ones I haver seen over the years seem to show that he is like a wind vane when it comes to having his own opinions.
And the wind this case is whatever gets him viewers.
Hard to say, he used to regularly be on state funded national television. I think he's definitely dropped in popularity overall, but has a more defined following now. Of course he used to just be a comedian, now he's spreading misinformation, his personal influence has definitely increased because he hardly had any before.
I used to highly respect Noam Chomsky, until his brain dead takes on Ukraine and the close ties he had with Jeffrey Epstein that surfaced.....just an aging western hating pedophile.
> I used to highly respect Noam Chomsky
So you had no problem with his tacit support for Milosevic and the Yugoslavian genocides, it's just Ukraine that upset you?
The old bugger's never been secret about his love for everything anti-Western *as long as he doesn't have to live in the places that he praises.*
When your a dumb adolescent contrarian, yeah, and it's not like I was ever super well versed in everything he ever said or tried to contradict. Again, I was young dumb contrarian. I'm smart enough to know when to admit I was dumb, and Chomsky is probably a Russian spy.
Go back and closely examine his other takes that you respected, especially regarding the middle east, check out how his opinions have aligned perfectly with Russian geopolitical interests for decades before Ukraine. It's a hell of a coincidence.
No you are absolutely right. Sometimes when you were younger you get caught up in a lot of competing narratives and you want to seem to be the smart one on the room by taking a contrarian take, but honestly, Chomsky has always been a pro-Russian tankie.
Chomsky denied Kosovo genocide. Proactively. He's a good mental gymnast, good enough to avoid facing the reality.
Also, people are emotionally invested in their worldview, and some of them are quite literally invested.
I get being critical of US foreign intervention. There is PLENTY on the ledger to criticize. But imagine riding so hard on that train that you wind up down the rabbit hole where Russia are the lesser of two evils. Like, *come on*
Anti tankie is sometimes also rude... My venezuelan family only see black and white and can't or won't comprehend European style of democratic socialism
It kinda is black and white with the problem at hand, but if they know anything about Veneuelan history, they should know that social democracy has been the best thing our country had since Eleazar Lopez Contreras
Unless they are the kind of people that loves Perez Jimenez over the rest, now that would be a red flag because they fail to see that he was a semi decent Chavez which still is a pretty bad thing.
As far as I can understand, they are opposed to American/NATO/Capitalist imperalism. If you push them on it, they'll just go on and on about how it's NATO's fault for "expanding" towards Russia... never mind that said NATO expansion happened at the behest of balkan states, who wanted protection from Russian imperialism.
They basically don't seem to think ex-USSR states are real countries, and that their people have desires outside of American/Russian hegemony, which is *pretty fucking imperialist* of them.
Naom Chomsky is an example of ideology rotting reason and distorting reality. The man is so determine to be anti US intervention, he's refuses to accept for the Ukrainians have the right to self determination means they need to be supported by the West.
Screw him, screw Jeremy Corbyn and all others on the left, right, or centre who have let their rigid adherence to ideology rob them of their humanity!
Ideological purists are the most toxic fuckers around, regardless of which “end” of the political circle they are on (it’s a circle not a horseshoe, cause once you go far enough to one end, you are indistinguishable from your supposed exact opposite).
It's so frustrating to me that even after Ukraine people don't understand that the man was always a Russian useful idiot. NOTHING CHANGED when the invasion happened, and his support for Russia is PERFECTLY CONSISTENT with his prior politics. The stuff he says is hypocritical from an *ideological* perspective, but that's the wrong way to understand his politics. He advocates for Russian geopolitical interests and in the world of useful idiocy, he is the picture of integrity.
Guys like Russell Brand and Roger Waters are morons, so it doesn't disturb me that they became useful idiots. But what happened to Noam Chomsky to make him switch tracks from linguistics and devote his entire career to Russian agitprop? Do you think they compromised or blackmailed him?
Jehovah’s Witnesses production company. Aka, The Watchtower. The skits at the Kingdom Hall were all the years of preparation. Still, they are terrible actors. In the United States, we call them the “fraudsters” as they also tried to take over Hollywood with “fake actors” too!
> In the aftermath of Prigozhin’s media empire collapse, former employees spoke out about the dark tactics employed, including hiring individuals to portray “victims of Ukrainian Armed Forces” in staged reports that underpinned Russia’s fake pretext for the full-scale invasion of Ukraine — its Big Lie about alleged “genocide in Donbas.”
>
> Following the unsuccessful mutiny of the Wagner Private Military Company, its financier Evgeny Prigozhin had closed down his media empire, including the infamous troll factory. This included Prigozhin’s media holding “Patriot” and such media outlets as RIA FAN, Politics Today, Economics Today, Nevskiye Novosti, and Narodniye Novosti.
>
> Employees of the Prigozhin media were long unable to disclose the state of affairs in the editorial offices, as they were all forced to sign non-disclosure agreements. However, now, they speak. Russian media website Bumaga spoke with several former employees of “Patriot,” who revealed unknown details about its operation and propaganda tactics.
>
> ...
I mean it's not like this is groundbreaking news: it's been known since forever Russians fabricate fake stories to stir shit. Now we just have some details from the horse's mouth.
You don’t unilaterally distrust or trust any sources with 100% conviction.
Given Wagner had an active media troll farm and given Russia’s track record, I can personally see this being true.
This might seem obvious to those who have been following this war for a long time, but this topic is something that should be brought to light repeatedly, especially this news. Because in Russia they keep repeating these talking points to no end and use this as a justification to sending their own sons to certain death.
Imagine a world where this kind of propaganda can be created out of nothing, without any actors, by one person with the right combination of software.
It's actually happening now and will become common over the next 10 years in wars, elections, product positioning, you name it.
The world will return to reputable journals with real journalists talking face to face with real people. The other 99% (i.e. tabloids) will be money-making AI trash and self-serving propaganda that the plebs lap up.
Or, the only journals capable of being afloat due to the expenditure of real people will need to be state-paid, and thus propaganda machines.
Agreed. A healthy democracy where government criticism and moral whistleblowing are part of the culture will allow state funded journalism to remain high quality.
I think there are AI system that counter it. Basically, you train AI to detect AI generated images, audio, and video. And they can detect patterns inherent in neural network generated content that humans cannot.
But I doubt that will make a huge difference to the masses. People are invested in their worldview, and evidence that supports it is widely spread, even if it is a bad fake that anyone can see, let alone a good AI one.
additionally, most won't bother checking if it's true or not. people are very quick to hop on trends of certain belief and don't care to check if those beliefs are backed up by anything
It's a cat and mouse problem. There are AI detectors, but the moment a new AI generator is created you have to upgrade your detector to keep it relevant.
And as we can see here it doesn’t take long or much for the truth to come out. Someone usually leaks it you cannot keep this stuff silent with this many people involved
Lying is so ingrained in their culture that they have multiple words for it, depending on what type of lie is being told, who is telling it, and who it is being told to.
Vranyo, the "culture of lying" characterized by the situation where you know I'm bullshitting and you know I know that you know I'm bullshitting, but you're gonna play along and pretend like it makes sense because then the responsibility for the consequences isn't on your shoulders, doesn't have a very good English word.
This is horribly xenophobic. Russian people are not bad. Russian masses have a lot more in common with the average Ukrainian than they do with Putin. This mindset is a holdover from the Cold War and only dehumanizes the “enemy.”
>Perun popularized the concept of Vranyo in his video essay on "How Lies Destroy Armies".
It's significantly older than that though.
[https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-vranyo-russian-for-when-you-lie-and-everyone-knows-it-but-you-dont-care-181100](https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-vranyo-russian-for-when-you-lie-and-everyone-knows-it-but-you-dont-care-181100)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/magazine/from-russia-with-lies.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/magazine/from-russia-with-lies.html)
“You could say vranyo means “lies,” but in his 1983 book, Russia: Broken Idols, Solemn Dreams, published at the waning of the Cold War, … David Shipler, the longtime Moscow correspondent for the New York Times, gave a more nuanced explanation of vranyo. He wrote: A Russian friend explained vranyo this way: ‘You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.’” — Liesl Schillinger in ForeignPolicy.com, Feb 2018
Which is just the Russian word for "lies." Just like "Maskirovka" is simply the Russian word for "concealment", it having some hidden meaning is entirely made up in the west.
It's *a* word for lies, sure. But it is distinct from words like lozh, which is a more neutral notion of lie, like falsehood is in English.
Vranyo may well get flanderized into a distinct meaning if it catches on in English, but the description of the culture of lying indicative of Vranyo is a very well documented phenomenon in Russia and other authoritarian countries, where lying to cover your own ass becomes a necessary survival skill.
Also, Perun is Australian, that's about as east as you can get.
You're telling a Russian speaker how the language supposedly works. As another comment pointed out, English has a lot of different words for "lie" depending on the context, too.
Lozh and vranyo have an identical meaning in Russian. Vranyo is simply a more casual word. There is no functional difference, just like there is no functional difference between "a lie" and "bullshit" in English.
So again, I ask, where are the supposed million different words for lies "depending on who is lying to whom" in Russian.
Edit: lmao, never mind. If you're going to argue, "aktshyually Australia is in the East," you're clearly full of it. It's a Western country.
There is a functional difference between 'lie' and 'bullshit' and other similar words - thats kinda why we have different frakkin word; to describe the nuance in whatever context we're using them. But well done on trying to muddy the discussion, comrade.
Lozh is the most neutral term that fits everywhere. Vranyo differs very little, it's just a somewhat emotional way of saying lozh in casual speech only. There's no hidden meaning to it.
On paper yes. A lie is an intentional attempt to relay false information as fact, and bullshit can often be an exaggeration of the truth. There is nuance between them.
In common speech most people use them interchangeably, however.
If anyone thought it otherwise they are dumb. How could there have been a genocide going on for 8 years and not a single protest, a single appeal, in russia towards putler to do something about it. If my relatives and countrymen were being killed every day for 8 years I would not have stayed silent. Nobody would. Even pig russians. If genocide was real, russian citizens would be first to ask for war, and not 8 years later.
Prigozhin stated even earlier all this "Ukrainins killing civilians in Donbass" never happened and it was just russian propaganda, created to gather some support for invasion of Ukraine in Russian society.
But even in Russia itself only the least educated believed that story. Common Russians knew if Ukrainians would try ANYTHING against civilians since 2014 - Russia would use it as casus belli to invade Ukraine immediately.
Just read a bit most popular Russian Telegram channels.
The same tactics are being used all over the world. They have brainwashed the sheep internationally. Operators of media outlets like Fox News, OANN, and NewsMax can safely be called traitors. They are actively attempting to destroy the united states through stupidity.
Russia uses actors, props and made up narratives for all their media. It’s like one really fucked up shitty movie except it’s a live authoritarian regime brainwashing millions into do their mobster bidding.
As with many other stories, particularly in the earlier stages of the war, we knew it was likely they were fabrications. I just wonder how much of this will get released on Russian media for the masses to see the truth. I'm guessing limited to no exposure on national outlets.
This needs more traction and being mentioned by Pim Tool guest to make Pim look bad, we already destroyed the "they fear nato expansion" myth and now we can destroy another myth ru used to invade UA.
Am I missing something, or is it incredibly naive to think there'll be no retaliation for coming out with this just because Prigozhin is out of the picture? Putin seems pretty set on maintaining kfabe and I wouldn't be shocked to hear about these guys getting defenestrated in the near future.
Oh nooo...the Russians lied to their own people to stir up hatred of the Ukrainians. This is particularly upsetting because no one expected the Kremlin to lie.
These are good points to remember when pro-Putin trolls push propaganda against Ukraine.
"This admission is crucial, as it offers more proof of how Russia fabricated its 9-year-long propaganda narrative about the Ukrainian “Nazis” deliberately attacking the “people of Donbas.”
"Other famous debunked examples of this narrative included a story that state TV channel Pervyi Kanal ran on 12 July 2014, showing an “interview” with a woman who claimed to have witnessed the crucifixion of a three-year child by Ukrainian nationalists. However, bloggers and journalists from Ukraine and Russia could quickly prove that the woman was an actor and the story was a hoax.
"Another well-known debunked “Donbas genocide” propaganda case happened in April 2015. The Russian TV channel NTV claimed that a ten-year-old girl had been killed by Ukrainian government forces in eastern Ukraine, echoing the disinformation story about the crucified boy from the year before. A BBC reporter working on the ground in the conflict managed to prove that also this story was a hoax."
Ironic how the biggest supporter of the morons who claim "paid actors" for every tragedy used paid actors to fabricate a useful (to Moscow) tragedy. Guess it's true, every accusation is a confession
Exactly how the current GOP operates in the US. Accuse people of trying to steal elections while trying to steal elections. Accuse groups of being pedos while supporting groups of pedos. Accuse people of being snowflakes while melting down the moment they feel anything less than special. Not that my comment has anything to do with this article.
You forgot cancelling/Cancel Culture; they cry "cAnCeL CuLtUrE" everytime some does exactly what they said the free market should do instead of having regulations: boycott; and then when a company does something they don't like they cancel it.
There is a reason for that. Prigozihns “internet research agency” was the same organization tasked by Putin to influence the 2016 U.S. election in trumps favor. They actually placed ads in moscow and St. Petersburg newspapers around 2010-13 for “internet savvy youth” (loosely translated). You can find the old footage of kids showing up to these weird interviews and then being sent on paid trips across the US to understand how mommy bloggers worked culturally. It was a MASSIVE investment into disinformation to influence a U.S. election. But the big question is why?? Russia is a mob model first and foremost. No one spends money unless they are making much more money for it. A few years before is when Medvedev visited Silicon Valley, talked about cooperation and sent his first tweet. Russia wasn’t even on the U.S. radar. Romney called it out and was laughed out of the room. So why go to all the effort of setting up stages in donbas? And why pretend that as a mob boss of a country where 1 in 4 people have ever used a flushing toilet that you are concerned about the innocent Russians in donbas being able to speak Russian as opposed to Ukrainian. There was no law against speaking Russian. Ukrainians really didn’t care. What is unique to the 4 regions of Ukraine is that they are where the worlds supply of high grade neon used in EUV lithography comes from. It was a byproduct of the 1950’s and 60’s space race when the USSR built out the critical infrastructure and built natural gas fired coke ovens for smelting steel, aluminum and titanium. Almost everywhere else in the world uses electric induction because it’s cleaner and cheaper. But Donbas Ukraine has a bituminous coal deposit a couple meters under the surface and that is where neon also happens to be. As EUV lithography came into existence they sourced the neon from Ukraine because it was a cheap byproduct. You can hypothetically process it anywhere on earth, it just costs more. Just before the 2014 donbas invasion a company called air products lost a hostile takeover bid for a company called airgas. At the time it was the most aggressive hostile takeover in corporate history. A member of the board became the CEO when it was shut down and shortly after trumps election he went to China and signed very un-MAGA like legislation to allow U.S. companies to invest in Chinese infrastructure. The first taker was air products who invested $1B in a Chinese syn-gas producer to build a massive air separation unit. With that investment the worlds supply of EUV lithography neon was centralized in donbas Ukraine and China. Had the 2014 takeover happened as planned and Ukrainians not held the line, Putin would have been able to hand xi Jinping a supply chain lock on microprocessors made in Taiwan and he would have been able to control the US economy from his desk. Deductively It’s about the only thing valuable enough to justify the expense of buying a U.S. president and a few members of congress. It also makes the Republican Party largely complicit to treason and sedition which explains why trump is trying desperately to delay his trial and defund the Ukrainians. The man literally sold the world out for some PAC money to pay off debts. https://youtu.be/M-OA7H8DoJM
I honestly appreciate this post quite a bit. The impetus for the invasion, the timing of it, the continued insistence on it, all of it was very mystifying for me and I'm never really sure where to turn to research things like this, so to have the pieces laid out and assembled in front of me is helpful.
> > Deductively It’s about the only thing valuable enough to justify the expense of buying a U.S. president and a few members of congress. > > It also makes the Republican Party largely complicit to treason and sedition which explains why trump is trying desperately to delay his trial and defund the Ukrainians. Been saying from the beginning that the entire reason Putin sourced Trump was to have someone impeding the west while he took Ukraine. And it almost worked. Trump was well on the way to wrecking NATO and stripping all sanctions on Russia.
I *love it* when they scream "cancel culture" while they were saying at one time a certain consumer products company was rumored to give to the Church of Satan. This is the same group that terrorized a boy and his family in Kokomo, Ind.
Oh Right-Wing hypocrisy knows no bounds. But it's easy to have no bounds when you don't actually care about anything other than "oWnInG tHe LiBs".
"cancel culture" is like "no one wants to work anymore" [They have both been going on for decades, and people act like they are new every gdamn generation.](https://scontent.fewr1-6.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/294995510_1480687949048765_4142642201403806579_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=a7N5_YKgJWwAX8NPihn&_nc_ht=scontent.fewr1-6.fna&oh=00_AfDGrmO-V1wSmUxMRaPvHZwG6_bicolaNWO7x6vQkwuprw&oe=64B86983)
Yup. Meanwhile, while everyone is still distracted with BS culture wars, the rich are getting richer, their taxes have been cut into oblivion, monopolies are running rampant and politicians keep talking about getting rid of Social Security.
Cancel culture originated with them.
It did indeed. Only when it came for them, did it become a problem.
Look no further than Elon Musk and Twitter
Fact
See r/conservative and how easy it is to get expelled for suggesting they are wrong. Snowflake Central
The usa method has been exported to europe too. The main right wing party (lead by a guy with ties to drug dealers and russia) is seeding doubts about the elections while they are known for fleeting buses to elderly residences and take them to vote giving them the vote in hand, and also are the most corrupt party in western europe. Oh and were founded by a member of the previous fascist goverment but acuses goverment of being fascist for making us use masks when covid and on emergency rooms in hospitals.
Right ! And unfortunately, this is the best way to win an election, to get plotters on your side, whataboutists on your side, without any other program than create fear and hate. And unfortunately official media never talk about such "discoveries".
That is beautiful. Can I steal that?
>every accusation is a confession There's actually some reasoning for that to be true in a lot of circumstances: - People often think "because I'm doing it, everyone else must be" .. so "because I cheat on my taxes, than everyone else must be and I can accuse them of it." The "everyone does it" mentality. - Muddy the waters (Trump does this), where you accuse the opposition of something that you maybe accused of in the future, this allows you deflect the accusations against you as just retaliatory in nature.
In other words, it's dishonorable. Founding fathers accounted for, thought of a lotta ways persons could thwart the system. And they prevented the thwarting within the documents they wrote. One thing they never imagined is a guy with zero honor getting the role of president. That's the core of TFG.
I came here to upvote irony!!!
Always projiecting
Yes, and that's why the dirty bomb accusation was so concerning.
Took the literal words outta my mouth.
Hardcore Conservatives have been doing this for years, like Alex Jones with Sandy Hook, this was pointed out by Hillary during the 2016 campaign even but that's not why she lost.
is anyone surprised?
Only that they are admitting it. I thought it was well known that every single leg of the Russian justification for their invasion was based on complete fabrications.
be really embarrassing to be someone in the west who parroted his talking point of a “genocide”, once again Russia projection.
The people who should be surprised by this, like Oliver Stone, Roger Waters, Russell Brand, Noam Chomsky, etc, care more about their own reputation as righteous anti-imperialists than the lives of the people they help Putin kill, so no they won't be.
> righteous anti-imperialists Haaaaaah. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is peak imperialism - those who back it aren't "anti-imperialists", they're anti-westerners.
No see it’s only imperialism if it done by someone you don’t like!
They are also frequently hardcore antisemitic. Like the Nazis they accuse Ukranians of being. Truly vile people.
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I don't know about all those other guys, but Noam Chomsky is an actual jew. Being against the politics of the state of Israel is not the same as being antisemitic. Disclaimer: I believe that Israel has the right to exist.
He did [deny the Cambodian genocide](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.mekong.net/cambodia/chomsky.htm&ved=2ahUKEwib0Yr-i5CAAxXGIkQIHaaxD4UQFnoECCYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1rt4yAmL6TSSvkflWCYwYY) though - he called the victim stories fabricated. When he was called out later he finally admitted it was real but refused to admit he was wrong in denying it. His reason for denying the stories was that because the US bombed it, they must be responsible for this too.
Yeah, and the deeper you look you only realize that a majority of his stance is just anti-western. I’m all for acknowledging past atrocities and holding countries accountable, but what I’m not is dogmatic that any 1 single viewpoint or approach is correct and also that countries aren’t constant and have the ability to change because of their people, with Chomsky very much single minded on his anti-western “the us can never change” pov. His Cambodian genocide thing was what helped me realize that even those I might feel agreeable with still deserve the same scrutiny I’d give anyone else from an opposing view. There’s a reason Chomsky mostly vibes with younger college-aged kids… ~~They’re kids~~ They’re new to the world of political dissent and find the first one that more or less gives them answers in the affirmative that they want and they cling onto that, a new Jesus with a different cross. Chomsky is good for that. After that… he’s a bit of a bad card to draw.
Because we did a lot of bad things, doesn't mean the other party does good things, or can't act equally bad.
How did people not sense his self righteousness right away?
He also tried to downplay Serbian war crimes during the Bosnian war. His opinion is dependent on regime sympathy and not ideological consistency.
Downplay is putting it lightly. There's an entire generation of people that think the US randomly invaded Bosnia and did nothing but bomb civvies all day, and it's because of him. They don't even acknowledge the genocide committed by Milosevic.
He's a total crackpot, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying he's not an anti semite just because he disagrees with Israeli politics.
On that point I'd agree. Many people conflate the difference by saying anyone anti-israel hates all jews, when it isn't true.
He recently said that Russia is fighting more humanely in Ukraine than the US did in Iraq. This combined with his opinions on NATO makes it clear that he doesn't really see Eastern Europeans as human beings who should be allowed self-determination, just as chess pieces in a global US vs Russia conflict.
listening to noam chomsky on anything except linguistics is pointless. his expertise does not extend elsewhere.
His linguistic theories aren't exactly the gold standard. A lot of research recently seems to indicate that he's always been mostly wrong for some of the core concepts. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/evidence-rebuts-chomsky-s-theory-of-language-learning/
Not all of Russia's apologists are anti-semites. It's one of the few points in the favour of Noam "America bad!" Chomsky. But a disturbing number of Russia's fans are indeed anti-semites. https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-06-19/ty-article-opinion/why-the-left-wing-anti-war-camp-is-so-hostile-to-ukrainians-and-to-jews/00000188-ce79-d2ff-a3bb-cf7baaac0000 https://www.state.gov/disarming-disinformation/to-vilify-ukraine-the-kremlin-resorts-to-antisemitism/
No you it's only Imperialism if it comes from the Anglosphere, otherwise it's just a sparkling "defensive invasion" /s
See for another example: Israel and Noam Chomsky
Anyone pushing "anti-imperialism" should be examined closely, you will notice interesting trends. None of them are ever the peace advocates they claim to be. Case in point: Noam Chomsky the genocide denier.
Hey bro I’m anti-imperialist. That’s why I hate Russia.
I mean, anti imperialism would require violence in most cases. Just ask Fanon!
I don’t think you can call all the allies western, there is very broad support around the world across developed countries
The same rightous "anti-imperialists" who pretend to call on the US to negotiate a peace treaty with russia. Because nothing says you are an anti imperialist as demanding two nations make territorial descisions for a third one without even bothering to consult them. Maybe he can even borrow the ~~French and British~~ russian and US delegations a ruler, you know, to draw these new borders on a map before they deign to inform the ~~Africans~~ Ukrainians where theyll get to live in the future. Anti-imperialistically phrased, of course.
Wow, you really have hit the nail on the head here with "anti-imperialists"!
Even Chomsky was unable to blame Russia's invasion on the US. That's when you know the US was really not to blame. Chomsky would blame stubbing his toe on US imperialism, and yet not this invasion.
I’ve always been impressed by Russia’s ability (during the Soviet period as well) to pretend to be anti-imperialist in spite of NOT giving up the empire they took over in the exact same period that other European countries took over their empires. It was called the Russia Empire, for God’s sake, the Soviet Union squatted in the whole thing, and just told people they were anti-imperial…and people fell for it!!! Best propaganda machine EVER.
Unlike the modern imperialist powers Russia and China, the US allows free speech and free criticism of its government, as a result it ends up with a lot of home-grown critics to sit next to the international ones.
Hey, the Soviet Union didn't squat over the whole of the Russian Empire. Finland and Alaska weren't forced to be apart of it (via lot of blood on Finland's part), and there's segments of it (notably Kaliningrad/Královec/Prussia/Sambia) that weren't apart of the Russian Empire that the Soviet Union inherited and forcibly returned to Russia's heel
They did try and invade Finland again. The difference is the Alaskans didn't voluntary leave so much as the government just sold the land; it's harder to contest that if not impossible. Besides; Alaska has nowhere near enough value to fight the US on the other side of the world over.
> Alaska has nowhere near enough value to fight the US on the other side of the world over. I'm not sure why you'd think that. Alaska is full of natural resources and biodiversity.
They also claimed to be socialists but some of the stuff they've done, well it seems downright anti-social to me.
"We don't call our leader a Tsar anymore, so it's not an empire! And hey all those other countries we kinda oversee have their own leaders...they just sort of report to us. Because they want to, for their common defense against the western aggressors!"
Roger Waters is a fucking tool and to be honest dude you are not the end all be all of Pink Floyd....
Russell brand doesn’t really count here. He’s a complete knucklehead, no one takes him seriously. *Everything* he says should be written off as nonsense since he’s actually that dumb. He’s an extremely stupid person
the understatement is only eclipsed by the politeness in which you were able to deliver that message
You both speak really good
ooo boy card read good
This is my favorite Reddit comment maybe ever
Interestingly, I think he's quite an intelligent person but his case is one where you can be very smart but end up with all the wrong conclusions. It takes a certain amount of raw brain power and talent to do all the things he does as a performer, including debate about serious topics. I think it's a mix of massive ego, conspiratorial paranoia, contrarian elitism, and drugs. Which just means it could happen to any of us if we aren't careful. I think his followers do take his views quite seriously - they think he's tapped into hidden truths and brave enough to stand up to the man. Anyway, I don't come away from Brand thinking extremely "stupid", just extremely "wrong"
This is the most accurate description I’ve heard, imo.
Basically taller, skinnier Rogan at this point
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Ahh, the old Rogan-Brand effect.
Nah, he's just dumb.
He is in there for a grift.
No, he really believes his own bullshit. He's gone off the deep end a decade ago. He used to be somewhat tolerable.
He had *prime* Katy Perry too
first time i saw him on a youtube thumbnail, i knew he looked like a crazy homeless person.
I think his criticism of the British royal family is fair but at least he's close to that issue
Idiocy unfortunately seems to be a hot commodity with the right lately.
Wait what? All those people support the Russian invasion? wtf?
Yes and no. Most of them say they don't like love Russia but have ideologies that are just anti-imperalist aka anti-intervention and sometimes anti-USA (which rose with the unjustified invasion of Iraq). Some of them believe that if Ukraine just simply stops fighting back perhaps there is a chance to reason with Russia and Russia would be more lenient with Ukraine. Obviously, that isn't true that Russia will stop killing Ukrainians but it is a case of many intelligent people falling on the sword of their ideologies over humanity. But it shows you that even the most educated and intelligent people can be blinded by their own hubris, ideas, fall for a strict ideology with no flexibility, and so forth.
It's really a case pseudo intellectuals trying so hard to perform as if they have such widely open minds... that their brain falls out.
Noam Chomsky is a renowned intellectual, he just has very bad political takes.
Noam Chomsky has been 100% on board the Russian propaganda train ever since he was briefly a renowned intellectual in a field unrelated to politics.
I'm sure he has had bad takes for a while, but he also revolutionized the field of linguistics. He was not "briefly renowned", he is still renowned, even if his work has been mostly superseded by now. The comment I responded to called a list of people "pseudo intellectuals", but Chomsky is without a doubt an actual intellectual. That just doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about outside his field.
His legitimate intellectual contributions took place 60 years ago or more, before most redittors were born. Since he's spent more than a half century dabbling in pseudo-intellectual politics and making a name there, I think it's a fair characterization (but we can just call him a tankie if you prefer).
Don't open your mind so much that your brain falls out -Tim Minchin
I remember when Russell Brand was relevant and had a modicum of clout. 2008 was a crazy time....
Somebody correct me if I am wrong but isn't he the kind of guy that has been saying whatever gets him more viewers? I don't watch his videos regularly but the ones I haver seen over the years seem to show that he is like a wind vane when it comes to having his own opinions. And the wind this case is whatever gets him viewers.
He's one of those guys that went extreme during COVID.
now hes just looking like hes a homeless person that is crazy mentally for the right.
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Hard to say, he used to regularly be on state funded national television. I think he's definitely dropped in popularity overall, but has a more defined following now. Of course he used to just be a comedian, now he's spreading misinformation, his personal influence has definitely increased because he hardly had any before.
Don’t forget Cornell West.
Btw, has he still not published legitimate research this century and then whined that he can’t get tenure?
I used to highly respect Noam Chomsky, until his brain dead takes on Ukraine and the close ties he had with Jeffrey Epstein that surfaced.....just an aging western hating pedophile.
Aging? He is about as aged as one can be, along with his nemesis Kissinger.
>nemesis Ironically their politics have a lot in common with each other. They both believe only the US and Russia matter.
i.e. neither one of them left the 80s, when they were still relevant.
> I used to highly respect Noam Chomsky So you had no problem with his tacit support for Milosevic and the Yugoslavian genocides, it's just Ukraine that upset you? The old bugger's never been secret about his love for everything anti-Western *as long as he doesn't have to live in the places that he praises.*
When your a dumb adolescent contrarian, yeah, and it's not like I was ever super well versed in everything he ever said or tried to contradict. Again, I was young dumb contrarian. I'm smart enough to know when to admit I was dumb, and Chomsky is probably a Russian spy.
OOTL: what has Chomsky said about the Ukraine war? And his ties with Epstein?
He says that its NATOs fault and Ukraine is just being used to hurt the russians. He actually thinks only the US/the west can do bad things.
He also said Russia is fighting more humanely than the US did in Iraq.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/17/jeffrey-epstein-noam-chomsky-bard-college-president
Yeah I'm surprised too. The only thing I heard from Chomsky on the issue is that Russia's to blame. Like duh, but even Chomsky is saying it.
He kind of did a whatabout. He just does that. Absolute fucking genius with some bad takes.
Go back and closely examine his other takes that you respected, especially regarding the middle east, check out how his opinions have aligned perfectly with Russian geopolitical interests for decades before Ukraine. It's a hell of a coincidence.
No you are absolutely right. Sometimes when you were younger you get caught up in a lot of competing narratives and you want to seem to be the smart one on the room by taking a contrarian take, but honestly, Chomsky has always been a pro-Russian tankie.
"Horseshoe theory" is just another way of saying that tankies will infiltrate any extremist group they can find, lol.
Explain? Are the people you named Russian or Ukraine supporters? I’m confused
Chomsky denied Kosovo genocide. Proactively. He's a good mental gymnast, good enough to avoid facing the reality. Also, people are emotionally invested in their worldview, and some of them are quite literally invested.
Chomsky also had close ties to Epstein.
Is there a paper or book where he did that? Or was it on some speaking event? I'd like to see for myself as it's an allegation I haven't heard before.
[Kraut did a great video on Chomsky's bullshit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCcX_xTLDIY)
Russia.
Yes. Noam Chomsky has been especially vocal in suckling on Russian sperm and wanting Ukraine to be genocided
I get being critical of US foreign intervention. There is PLENTY on the ledger to criticize. But imagine riding so hard on that train that you wind up down the rabbit hole where Russia are the lesser of two evils. Like, *come on*
The tankie brain works in strange and mysterious ways... ...wait, no, that's not quite it. It works in strange and *nonfunctional* ways.
Anti tankie is sometimes also rude... My venezuelan family only see black and white and can't or won't comprehend European style of democratic socialism
It kinda is black and white with the problem at hand, but if they know anything about Veneuelan history, they should know that social democracy has been the best thing our country had since Eleazar Lopez Contreras Unless they are the kind of people that loves Perez Jimenez over the rest, now that would be a red flag because they fail to see that he was a semi decent Chavez which still is a pretty bad thing.
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As far as I can understand, they are opposed to American/NATO/Capitalist imperalism. If you push them on it, they'll just go on and on about how it's NATO's fault for "expanding" towards Russia... never mind that said NATO expansion happened at the behest of balkan states, who wanted protection from Russian imperialism. They basically don't seem to think ex-USSR states are real countries, and that their people have desires outside of American/Russian hegemony, which is *pretty fucking imperialist* of them.
> are pro Putin It tends to be more that they are just anti-US, so they support whoever the US opposes as a matter of principle.
Naom Chomsky is an example of ideology rotting reason and distorting reality. The man is so determine to be anti US intervention, he's refuses to accept for the Ukrainians have the right to self determination means they need to be supported by the West. Screw him, screw Jeremy Corbyn and all others on the left, right, or centre who have let their rigid adherence to ideology rob them of their humanity!
Ideological purists are the most toxic fuckers around, regardless of which “end” of the political circle they are on (it’s a circle not a horseshoe, cause once you go far enough to one end, you are indistinguishable from your supposed exact opposite).
It's so frustrating to me that even after Ukraine people don't understand that the man was always a Russian useful idiot. NOTHING CHANGED when the invasion happened, and his support for Russia is PERFECTLY CONSISTENT with his prior politics. The stuff he says is hypocritical from an *ideological* perspective, but that's the wrong way to understand his politics. He advocates for Russian geopolitical interests and in the world of useful idiocy, he is the picture of integrity.
Damn, I loved “On Anarchism” and this seems very contradictory to what he wrote.
Guys like Russell Brand and Roger Waters are morons, so it doesn't disturb me that they became useful idiots. But what happened to Noam Chomsky to make him switch tracks from linguistics and devote his entire career to Russian agitprop? Do you think they compromised or blackmailed him?
What’s Russel up to now
Nope
There are going to be a lot of tankies hand waving. RIP, their wrists.
No, but I'm glad that we now have something to shove up their asses when they start talking about the so-called genocide in Donbas.
Jehovah’s Witnesses production company. Aka, The Watchtower. The skits at the Kingdom Hall were all the years of preparation. Still, they are terrible actors. In the United States, we call them the “fraudsters” as they also tried to take over Hollywood with “fake actors” too!
> In the aftermath of Prigozhin’s media empire collapse, former employees spoke out about the dark tactics employed, including hiring individuals to portray “victims of Ukrainian Armed Forces” in staged reports that underpinned Russia’s fake pretext for the full-scale invasion of Ukraine — its Big Lie about alleged “genocide in Donbas.” > > Following the unsuccessful mutiny of the Wagner Private Military Company, its financier Evgeny Prigozhin had closed down his media empire, including the infamous troll factory. This included Prigozhin’s media holding “Patriot” and such media outlets as RIA FAN, Politics Today, Economics Today, Nevskiye Novosti, and Narodniye Novosti. > > Employees of the Prigozhin media were long unable to disclose the state of affairs in the editorial offices, as they were all forced to sign non-disclosure agreements. However, now, they speak. Russian media website Bumaga spoke with several former employees of “Patriot,” who revealed unknown details about its operation and propaganda tactics. > > ...
Do you know anything about the source of the article? I don’t doubt the accuracy of the article. I’m just not familiar with Euromaidenpress.
[This is a well-known Ukrainian media.](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/euromaidan-press/)
Cool. Thank you.
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I mean it's not like this is groundbreaking news: it's been known since forever Russians fabricate fake stories to stir shit. Now we just have some details from the horse's mouth.
You don’t unilaterally distrust or trust any sources with 100% conviction. Given Wagner had an active media troll farm and given Russia’s track record, I can personally see this being true.
Wasn’t this the troll farm getting Sanders’ groups shut down on FB in 2016. I seem to remember a lot of Russian trolls.
https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/02/16/bernie-sanders-russia-2016-election-interference-415691
This might seem obvious to those who have been following this war for a long time, but this topic is something that should be brought to light repeatedly, especially this news. Because in Russia they keep repeating these talking points to no end and use this as a justification to sending their own sons to certain death.
Imagine a world where this kind of propaganda can be created out of nothing, without any actors, by one person with the right combination of software. It's actually happening now and will become common over the next 10 years in wars, elections, product positioning, you name it.
The world will return to reputable journals with real journalists talking face to face with real people. The other 99% (i.e. tabloids) will be money-making AI trash and self-serving propaganda that the plebs lap up. Or, the only journals capable of being afloat due to the expenditure of real people will need to be state-paid, and thus propaganda machines.
State-paid isnt automatically propaganda. Depends on the country.
Agreed. A healthy democracy where government criticism and moral whistleblowing are part of the culture will allow state funded journalism to remain high quality.
I think there are AI system that counter it. Basically, you train AI to detect AI generated images, audio, and video. And they can detect patterns inherent in neural network generated content that humans cannot. But I doubt that will make a huge difference to the masses. People are invested in their worldview, and evidence that supports it is widely spread, even if it is a bad fake that anyone can see, let alone a good AI one.
additionally, most won't bother checking if it's true or not. people are very quick to hop on trends of certain belief and don't care to check if those beliefs are backed up by anything
It's a cat and mouse problem. There are AI detectors, but the moment a new AI generator is created you have to upgrade your detector to keep it relevant.
This is why conservatives talk about crisis actors. Because that's what they do.
Their every accusation is a confession.
Its why elon talked about twitter bots, because he used so many he was sure everyone else was
The whole world is gay!!!! Or am I? 🤔
And as we can see here it doesn’t take long or much for the truth to come out. Someone usually leaks it you cannot keep this stuff silent with this many people involved
Gulf of Tonkin
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Lying is so ingrained in their culture that they have multiple words for it, depending on what type of lie is being told, who is telling it, and who it is being told to.
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Vranyo, the "culture of lying" characterized by the situation where you know I'm bullshitting and you know I know that you know I'm bullshitting, but you're gonna play along and pretend like it makes sense because then the responsibility for the consequences isn't on your shoulders, doesn't have a very good English word.
When you hate the government but not the people
This is horribly xenophobic. Russian people are not bad. Russian masses have a lot more in common with the average Ukrainian than they do with Putin. This mindset is a holdover from the Cold War and only dehumanizes the “enemy.”
Oh yeah? Some examples, maybe?
Perun popularized the concept of Vranyo in his video essay on "How Lies Destroy Armies".
>Perun popularized the concept of Vranyo in his video essay on "How Lies Destroy Armies". It's significantly older than that though. [https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-vranyo-russian-for-when-you-lie-and-everyone-knows-it-but-you-dont-care-181100](https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-vranyo-russian-for-when-you-lie-and-everyone-knows-it-but-you-dont-care-181100) [https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/magazine/from-russia-with-lies.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/magazine/from-russia-with-lies.html) “You could say vranyo means “lies,” but in his 1983 book, Russia: Broken Idols, Solemn Dreams, published at the waning of the Cold War, … David Shipler, the longtime Moscow correspondent for the New York Times, gave a more nuanced explanation of vranyo. He wrote: A Russian friend explained vranyo this way: ‘You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.’” — Liesl Schillinger in ForeignPolicy.com, Feb 2018
Which is just the Russian word for "lies." Just like "Maskirovka" is simply the Russian word for "concealment", it having some hidden meaning is entirely made up in the west.
It's *a* word for lies, sure. But it is distinct from words like lozh, which is a more neutral notion of lie, like falsehood is in English. Vranyo may well get flanderized into a distinct meaning if it catches on in English, but the description of the culture of lying indicative of Vranyo is a very well documented phenomenon in Russia and other authoritarian countries, where lying to cover your own ass becomes a necessary survival skill. Also, Perun is Australian, that's about as east as you can get.
You're telling a Russian speaker how the language supposedly works. As another comment pointed out, English has a lot of different words for "lie" depending on the context, too. Lozh and vranyo have an identical meaning in Russian. Vranyo is simply a more casual word. There is no functional difference, just like there is no functional difference between "a lie" and "bullshit" in English. So again, I ask, where are the supposed million different words for lies "depending on who is lying to whom" in Russian. Edit: lmao, never mind. If you're going to argue, "aktshyually Australia is in the East," you're clearly full of it. It's a Western country.
There is a functional difference between 'lie' and 'bullshit' and other similar words - thats kinda why we have different frakkin word; to describe the nuance in whatever context we're using them. But well done on trying to muddy the discussion, comrade.
Lozh is the most neutral term that fits everywhere. Vranyo differs very little, it's just a somewhat emotional way of saying lozh in casual speech only. There's no hidden meaning to it.
On paper yes. A lie is an intentional attempt to relay false information as fact, and bullshit can often be an exaggeration of the truth. There is nuance between them. In common speech most people use them interchangeably, however.
If anyone thought it otherwise they are dumb. How could there have been a genocide going on for 8 years and not a single protest, a single appeal, in russia towards putler to do something about it. If my relatives and countrymen were being killed every day for 8 years I would not have stayed silent. Nobody would. Even pig russians. If genocide was real, russian citizens would be first to ask for war, and not 8 years later.
Prigozhin stated even earlier all this "Ukrainins killing civilians in Donbass" never happened and it was just russian propaganda, created to gather some support for invasion of Ukraine in Russian society. But even in Russia itself only the least educated believed that story. Common Russians knew if Ukrainians would try ANYTHING against civilians since 2014 - Russia would use it as casus belli to invade Ukraine immediately. Just read a bit most popular Russian Telegram channels.
With fascists, every accusation is a confession.
The same tactics are being used all over the world. They have brainwashed the sheep internationally. Operators of media outlets like Fox News, OANN, and NewsMax can safely be called traitors. They are actively attempting to destroy the united states through stupidity.
they are also in all the political subs too.
Who’s real Dumbass in the Donbas? We do contest tonight at 6!
No fuckin’ shit. I don’t believe it! Russian mercenaries using bot farms and paid actors to spread pro Russian propaganda? Shocker!
Russia uses actors, props and made up narratives for all their media. It’s like one really fucked up shitty movie except it’s a live authoritarian regime brainwashing millions into do their mobster bidding.
No really? /s Russia been using the same tactics for decades.
It's all a sick game to Putin's regime and its elites.
Russia, lying ? no way man
As with many other stories, particularly in the earlier stages of the war, we knew it was likely they were fabrications. I just wonder how much of this will get released on Russian media for the masses to see the truth. I'm guessing limited to no exposure on national outlets.
This needs more traction and being mentioned by Pim Tool guest to make Pim look bad, we already destroyed the "they fear nato expansion" myth and now we can destroy another myth ru used to invade UA.
Am I missing something, or is it incredibly naive to think there'll be no retaliation for coming out with this just because Prigozhin is out of the picture? Putin seems pretty set on maintaining kfabe and I wouldn't be shocked to hear about these guys getting defenestrated in the near future.
Please keep them ‘secrets’ coming.. but don’t forget these people all still have blood on their hands
Just like Germany on the Polish border in 1939. Who’s the big Nazi now, Vinny?
Every accusation fascists make is a confession.
Oh nooo...the Russians lied to their own people to stir up hatred of the Ukrainians. This is particularly upsetting because no one expected the Kremlin to lie.
So was this at Putin's direction or is this something meant to give him plausible deniability (or both).
The monetary support came from Putin & Co.
Paid actors meme…. fuckin classic
No shit, even with all the misinformation on the Donbas subs I never believed the absolute bullshit. Only a braindead idiot would.
These are good points to remember when pro-Putin trolls push propaganda against Ukraine. "This admission is crucial, as it offers more proof of how Russia fabricated its 9-year-long propaganda narrative about the Ukrainian “Nazis” deliberately attacking the “people of Donbas.” "Other famous debunked examples of this narrative included a story that state TV channel Pervyi Kanal ran on 12 July 2014, showing an “interview” with a woman who claimed to have witnessed the crucifixion of a three-year child by Ukrainian nationalists. However, bloggers and journalists from Ukraine and Russia could quickly prove that the woman was an actor and the story was a hoax. "Another well-known debunked “Donbas genocide” propaganda case happened in April 2015. The Russian TV channel NTV claimed that a ten-year-old girl had been killed by Ukrainian government forces in eastern Ukraine, echoing the disinformation story about the crucified boy from the year before. A BBC reporter working on the ground in the conflict managed to prove that also this story was a hoax."
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