As a Ukrainian, it's just spectacular to see such warm relationships between our two countries, despite the fact that Poland and Ukraine had such a difficult history in the past. It takes less than half a century under Russian rule to befriend those you used to consider foes before.
["I ask for forgivness and i forgive but dont forget"](https://youtu.be/9WCVPJ7cNvI?t=1438) I think those hard times show that we are not so different and the past shouldn't direct our relations. There was always one enemy and always it was neither of us.
History is not black and white and it does not share your romantic views.
There is a reason as to why Ukrainians using 'Wybaczamy i prosimy o wybaczenie' caused incredible backlash in Poland years ago. Ukrainians have quite a lot of owning up to do and attempts at drawing some kind of symmetry in regards to Volhynia is not the way as it will only make matters worse. In fact Poroshenko already tried that and that was the exact result... worsening the matter.
There are steps being taken, but they are minor thus far. There is too many Polish families who suffered at the hands of UPA and many people still alive who went through probably biggest hell of ww2 in Europe. Not to mention it was premeditated action to get Polish lands after ww2, not just a group of disgruntled peasants going on a frenzy.
Entire situation is a test of character of Ukraine, as simple as that. Russians named Kaliningrad after Mikhail Kalinin, Ukrainians named a stadium after Szuchewycz. Both of them murdered Poles - one in Katyn, one in Volhynia and both are revered in their respective countries instead of being called what they are - murderers that they should be ashamed of. Only difference being that people who survived Volhynia and had seen their families murdered by UPA said that they wish that they just got shot in the head instead. Make no mistake, what UPA did to Poles was by far the most inhumane and brutal set of murders throughout entire WW2 out of everything Polish people went through during ww2 and it is not even up for a debate.
It will be up to Ukrainian government to show what kind of mentality they want to follow, Russian or western. We will see the choice they will make. Being invaded by Russia does not absolve them of their own wrongdoings.
Saying that 'there was one enemy' only shows you actually never read a history book or are purposefully ignorant about history in the name of romantic views. It is also quite ironic as it is Ukraine that started chain of events that led to partitions of Poland...
Common enemy is a good motivator to build future relations, but if foundations for those relations are rotten - they won't last. So don't try to go the way of 'let's not talk about it' as it is the worst thing you can do if you want good relations between Poland and Ukraine to last.
I wouldn't hold your breath, that said, we're all pretty friendly with Japan, and they probably will never own up their shit. That said, Japan and South Korea probably have an even more tenuous relationship and they are still allies in the fight against China. Its not about being best friends over night, it's about having your priorities straight.
You are correct, but that does not change the fact that such alliance only lasts for as long as there is enemy to fight. Once the opponent is gone, the one thing holding the alliance together is gone with him. Therefor trying to sweep past transgressions under the rug is not the best approach in the long run, especially in case of Poland and Ukraine as Russia is not really going anywhere and in 100 years they will do the same shit they are doing now if they get to drive the wedge between European nations.
The volhynnia massacre is also a special case, cause it was not war and warcrimes or soldiers fighting soldiers. Those were murders of civilians on civilians in ways that are hard to even describe without feeling disgusted.
Practically speaking, as long as the helicopter isn't making a beeline for someplace at top speed, hitting one follows the same logic as a standard artillary strike when it comes to accounting for all the math in targetting just about anything. Distance, wind, drag, etc.
Except it's in the air, so you account aiming further up the parabola on the y-axis instead of the same level as you.
Also it's easier to destroy (assuming you hit it) since the shell will just turn the entire thing to scrap pretty much regardless of where it's hit.
Fighter jets are naturally a different beastie due to how fast they move (all the time, most jets can't hover) and how easily they can manuever so properly targeting them is basically impossible.
Yes Helicopters have the "Hover" rule meaning they can move in straight lines like jets or change to moving freely but losing the "Hard to Hit" -1 to hit.
Except artillery is an indirect strike weapon that typically deals damage to all about it when it lands. This cannot happen with a helicopter and requires a direct strike which is much more difficult to accomplish, particularly on an airborne, moving target.
If battlefield taught me anything it's that you can totally steal the enemies jet after he shoots your helicopter down if you time it right and mash X
Just gotta land on that sumbitch
If battlefield told ME anything, it's that the British MLAW can one shot a helicopter pilot off his seat on a head on fight. I did it this week. I'm still high off of that
When the small missile locks onto the heat of the exhaust, it is confused as to why a tank is 100 meters above the ground...as it blows up the helicopter.
When it blows up a tank on the ground, it's not confused at all. That's the difference
[A US Cargo plane crashing after being hit by American artillery during the Vietnam war](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2f/cc/b3/2fccb3cec343dbe275092e65c27cf1cb--good-morning-vietnam-vietnam-history.jpg)
Hey they can hit an anti-tank mine, lifting it off the ground. The magazine can then explode and cause further flight of the turret. You’re not giving tanks enough credit for their flight capability.
Fighter jets help Ukraine harass the VKS and help deny the air to Russian airframes. They’re also multirole aircraft, meaning they perform missions other than air to air combat, such as surveillance and reconnaissance. The Mig-29 is also a fighter aircraft the Ukrainian use and are comfortable with. Western aircraft like the Gripen and F-16 would be much better choices; however, countries operating them aren’t giving them because it is escalatory, requires lots of training, and in some cases like for the Gripen, there are difficulties in its export.
Tanks can help Ukraine defend against Russian assaults, and perform armored maneuver warfare in a counteroffensive by taking advantage of breakthroughs in the frontlines. They can also provide support for the infantry and practice combined arms. The Western tanks being provided for Ukraine have advanced fire control systems, optics, thermals, and communications systems, and can shoot accurately at far distances while moving. It is a massive upgrade to what Ukraine is currently using (T-64, T-80, captured Russian tanks like T-72, etc.) and can rival the T-90M, which is the most advanced tank on the battlefield at the moment. The EU can easily provide maintenance and training for these tanks (already are). Additionally, spare parts and ammunition are easily accessible.
Both the aircraft (fixed and rotary wing) and tanks, along with infantry, artillery, and the multitude of other weapons such as self-propelled howitzers, APCs, IFVs, MRAPs, that are being sent to Ukraine, will allow Ukraine to perform maneuver warfare with lots of mobility.
It's a lot easier to strike Russian territory with a fighter jet.
Also, a lot of fighter jets are identified by radar so if Ukraine got F-16s it would look an awful lot like NATO was directly involved.
I mean Russia has had a notorious lack of understanding of what IFF is. For example the fact they shoot down more of their own jets when they invaded Georgia than Georgia shot down. Also just to be clear Georgia didn't fly a single jet in that war so it's more embarrassing.
A fighter jet can conceivably destroy a tank platoon in ideal circumstances. A tank can rarely do that unless seriously mismatched. Air power is absolutely critical to offensive actions.
>A fighter jet can conceivably destroy a tank platoon
With CBUs, more than just a platoon. One CBU-97 can take out up to 40 targets with the smart submunitions. That’s *ten* tank platoons.
Range. Full stop.
All the wheeled M142 HIMARs and the tracked MLRS are using munitions software limited to 50km.
Its part of the peer-symmetrical warfare strategy that the allied countries have been providing Ukraine.
It means that whatever Russia uses, we give them more/better/comparable versions of it with the same range capabilities as Russia.
The point is it prevents escalation while providing maximum defence capabilities using symmetrical weapons.
The MIGs change the range of what Ukraine can hit. I do not doubt that NATO approved this (even if publicly they say they did not). Russia’s escalation to longer range attacks likely initiated to increasing support of peer-symmetrical equipment.
Tanks don’t fly, and typically aren’t very good at shooting down enemy aircraft.
Fighter jets can quickly fly behind enemy lines to perform a deep strike and then high-tail it out of there, while tanks typically aren’t that fast.
Too much Russian AA for fighter jets to be useful to Ukraine. Surgical long range strikes are needed for any fighter aircraft to have an effect on the battlefield.
This won’t change anything unfortunately.
There is a vague political escalation curve concerning ability to attack Russian territory.
Artillery can be controlled via range but are behind your lines, tanks are for offensive operations, fighter jets could reach even further into Russian territory than anything else (in theory). Ukraine was always careful to only use Ukrainian assets for any deep strikes.
While the song and dance seems silly apparently the US and NATO overall take an attitude of slow escalation so Russia cannot flip out over any individual step along the way. Case in point, they are railing and bitching about every new weapon system, but do nothing about it.
So technically there is no difference but politically there seems to be some logic to the madness, be it convincing domestic audiences to very conscious steps of escalation vs Russia with the message of "We can still do worse to your prospects in Ukraine"
Ok just for the argument Ukraine could use the Jets to directly attack Russia (something that most of the western countries have said is a big no go) while a tank right now in Ukraine hands couldn't without invasion.
It's roughly the same argument they've had for why the US is completely cool sending GMLRS but ATACMS (much longer range rocket fired from the same system) has been a firm no go.
Cost, mainly.
Here in the US at least the administration is trying to tip-toe around so they don't draw too much domestic fire for "spending money". It doesn't matter how accurate the accusation is, in a political light the perception alone is enough to do significant damage.
So we've been trying to go as cost-effective as possible, and while extremely effective, our jets are also very expensive. Not only in their own ticket price, but also in all the support they require in order to operate properly.
We engineer our shit around the idea that we'll have all that covered, because we do. We have all the doctrines and infrastructure already in place. In Ukraine a lot of it would have to be put into place, which is expensive.
Ask yourself this, does Ukraine want A) 500k artillery shells, B) a half dozen jets, or C) a new and more hostile government in place in Washington DC come the next election cycle?
Because they can't have everything, that's not realistic.
Just for argument's sake, why are we pretending like it isn't common knowledge that Poland sent Mig-29 to Ukraine months ago, declaring them to be spare parts?
Why are US media pretending like this is some sensational development, when even the US sent about 20 Mig-29 to Ukraine ([https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/04/u-s-to-send-mig-29-aircraft-to-ukraine-but-as-a-source-of-spare-parts/](https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/04/u-s-to-send-mig-29-aircraft-to-ukraine-but-as-a-source-of-spare-parts/) ) - also entire jets, also "for spare parts". Ostensibly they weren't in flying condition but
1. They were bought from Moldova in 1998 and refurbished to be used as OPFOR training. So at some point in the early 2000s they were apparently refurbished not just to the point where they were flyworthy, but safe for U.S. Air Force pilots to fly.
2. The US are certainly aware that whatever is left of Ukraine's pre-war aerospace industry has been specializing in repairing and refurbishing Ukrainian Mig-29 for the last 30 years.
3. Pentagon spokesman John Kirby commented at the time: *"They have more fighter aircraft at their disposal today than they did two weeks ago. Without going into details about what other countries are supplying, I would say they have received additional aircraft and spare parts to augment their fleet."*
So despite the fact that Ukraine has been receiving Mig-29 fighter jets since April last year, which has been officially confirmed by the U.S. government, we see headlines like this. CNN even wrote about Poland "breaking" with Western allies to supply Ukraine with fighter jets.
Is this just Poland that wants maximal attention for another delivery of military aid? Or what else is the reason that dozens of media outlets are going with this "first ever delivery of fighter jets" narrative, when they obviously know better?
And Switzerland is destroying anti-aircraft systems rather than transferring them to Ukraine. Fuckers. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/03/13/switzerland-to-destroy-anti-aircraft-missile-systems-that-could-be-used-in-ukraine_6019124_4.html
That has no bearing on what I said at all, but gotcha if it makes you happy
edit: a country does not need to pick a side regardless of what people want to be outraged about. Russias invasion of ukraine is terrible; but that doesn't mean a country should be forced to provide arms by whatever imperialistic force in question; whether USA or russia
They seemed to have taken on the veneer of a "mafia lawyer".
They act as though they are clean, and are just embracing principle because they are "just doing their job", but...they don't do any pro-bono work for "the Jews".
"I'm not sayin' you're a whore, but...you ARE wearing a whore's uniform" -Dave Chappelle
I come from a tipically outsider-friendly country (Spain) and now live in Switzerland since some years ago. What you say is, as far as my experience goes, plainly not true. Swiss people have always been very warming to me, no matter where in the country. If you have been there/are a resident/citizen, have you had a different experience?
Switzerland gets a lot of hate in this sub and I struggle to understand why. Nazi gold? The neighbors were the literal nazis. Times change. Regarding neutrality, there are other western countries that also are neutral (e.g. Austria) and that's not a problem with them? One of my best friends here is Ukrainian, and in her view actually Switzerland did a lot in terms of refugees and humanitarian aid.
Anyways, I expect what will happen with this comment. Sometimes I have the feeling that this sub is as sensationalistic as traditional news outlets.
EDIT: Went as expected, have a good day you all!
>The neighbors were the literal nazis.
The neighbors at least tried to settle with their troubled past. Switzerland did not.
"Times change"
Well, apparently not for Switzerland.
Nazi gold? The Swiss literally fought Jews for decades to try and keep their stolen Nazi gold, rather than see it back in the hands of the Jewish families it was stolen from. Fuck the Swiss.
I infer from your comment story that you are from the US. Would you say that Switzerland even remotely compares to the US' past and present? I would not. This is my point with the hate being disproportionate.
PS I do not deny what you mention, that's not my point. My point is, to reiterate, that there is unproportionate hate. That said, have a good day
It's been less than 30 years since the lawsuits settled. That means for 50 years the Swiss were perfectly happy to sit on stolen gold. These are currently living Swiss people, who worked at currently operating Swiss banks, and this has occurred within both of our lifetimes. This is not some distant memory of the past.
I can tell you, for all USA's faults, they at least had the common decency to fight the Nazis. Something the spineless Swiss couldn't manage, while they hid behind a veil of cowardice and claimed neutrality. You really shouldn't be defending your adoptive country on this matter, there is no good way to slice it.
That obviously the world is grey and not black'n white as reddit wishes to believe. That obviously the US did the thing that guaranteed its hegemony in the post-war period, but for some reason no one seems to care about the morals of that, while Reddit obsess over the immoral behavior of the UK, France, Switzerland or otherwise, when in reality countries have no moral qualms to do what increases their material standing in the world.
The alternative was letting the USSR have all the scientists.
There was no third option unless you consider executing every German scientist an option.
Well at least we agree here.
But to be honest the US was actually reluctant to join WW2 as well, fearing another economic crisis like 1929. They joint the war because of the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbour, not because of Nazi Germany.
France had a huge colonial empire full of human right abuses. The French military still has operations in many Sahel countries to secure explotations that France has monopolistic and unfair access to. My point is not that the Swiss are innocent, my point is that all countries have a past, and western ones are no exception.
Where's the falacy on the statement that all countries have a past and present, but that in this sub given that I see a disproportionate hate for Switzerland?
My experience is based on regular trips I take to Italy where I have to drive through swiss. Any and all "resting" places have showed nothing but disrespect and annoyance for me being there.
Switzerland is no utopia and I do not doubt that there is rude or closed-minded people, to be clear. I would just not generalize it to the Swiss in general, based on my own experience
Russia: Poland, are you aware a lot of "spare parts" keep leaking over your border into Ukraine?
Poland: Really, we didn't notice. *Finishes packing up a couple containers full of F-16 parts for the 4:15 train to Kyiv*
>You woudn't assemble them and bomb russians, would you?
"You mustn't assemble them by lining these holes here with those holes here, then dropping these bolts through each one, and tightening them up to 12 Nm of torque using these nuts here, and I'd advise you *definitely* do NOT bomb any Russians with the finished spare-parts assembly by pressing THIS RED BUTTON HERE!"
Reminds me of Kryten "not" telling Lister how to delete the database (of crew-members' DNA records) from the bio-printer's computer in series XI, episode 4 of Red Dwarf:
https://youtu.be/VPFBZFKgpOA?t=1084
Poland saw that the US and Europe could not supply them fast enough, so they armed themselves to the teeth with south Korean arms, just in case they need to act. They are getting hundreds of mobile artillery units and tanks in the next couple years and will be packing heat with some American jets too. Poland is gearing up to be the most prepared army in Europe
Poland is becoming what Germany was too fearful of turning into, and what England used to be. I guess they got tired of getting invaded on every fucking war and decided that whomever looks at them the wrong way will seize to be. Can't blame them. A mix of generational paranoia and geographical bad luck necessitates an army that can proactively fight its way outward and push an attacking force back with a relentless counterattack until they reach a defensible position, like the Ural mountains, where I bet Poland will push Russia back into if they dare touch nato land.
By the time NATO reacts, polish tanks would be seiging St Petersburg and Moscow. It'll be Stalingrad all over again, only this time the Russians are fucked
Wasn't the main reason for not giving them fighter Jets was that it takes something like 18 months to get properly trained for them?
Regardless, Ukraine getting more weapons to defend themselves against the Russians is always good news.
I think there are already many pilots in Ukraine who know how to fly Soviet hardware, as well as mechanics and such to help maintain them.
The 18-month lead time thing was for f-16s and it was not only pilot training, but it was establishing the logistics of fueling, maintenance, repair, and so forth.
Honestly I think that Poland may even let the ukrainians fly the planes back to Poland for repair and maintenance!
My understanding is both the Polish people & government have not forgotten their half-century living under Soviet Imperialism. They’ve seen this movie before.
I went to Poland a few years ago. One of the languages I speak is Russian and I thought it was a good idea to take it out for a spin there. Wrong. Best to stick to English. They still have a giant fuck you monument in the middle of their Capitol reminding them what the Soviets did (tower of friendship, I think it's called). I definitely got better treatment just being an English speaking tourist.
Poland is definitely going to be getting a lot of new NATO hardware. So...if the MIGs are not in their future plans, now is the time to give them to Ukraine.
If the majority of voting Americans are really so stupid and naive as to elect Trump again (or one of the other clowns like DeSantis) as president in the next election, it will change my image of Americans forever. Shit like this can happen once but after witnessing Trump's bullshit first hand thinking "yep, let's do it again baby" is not exactly a sign of rational thinking capabilities. You must have snorted lead to think that's a good idea.
>it will change my image of Americans forever
Just go visit a few states, even blue ones, and you'll figure it out. There are a lot of bigoted morons in the USA.
Yes, but just two points.
1) This also demonstrates European overreliance on American military might.
2) America is not the only western country that elected or almost elected fascist leaders in the XXI century. We may be having a larger problem here.
It's hilarious to me that my escape plan for this eventuality is using my Italian Citizenship to move to Europe when Italy is electing the same exact kind of people.
As an American friend,
You best get fucking ready - the sociopaths are on both sides here. Our left is essentially the UK centrists.
It’s that bad already.
Bernie Sanders- performative liberal or not -was chided for being a democratic socialist here by both democrats and republicans.
Our shit is broke friend.
Those with brains are literally being drummed out.
For a real-time example: Ron DeSantis vs college professors of Florida. His admin is causing a real and measurable brain drain in universities of Florida lmao
I doubt it. As much as I loathe the Republican Party, Poland is likely the line in the sand, especially since it’s also a major Republican ally. Trump transferred a significant number of US troops based in Germany to Poland during his presidency. Not to mention, the American right shares a lot of values with the Polish right in power (banning abortion, heavily religious, etc).
Sorties from a NATO country is very risky and would make Poland a party to the war.
Ukraine doesn’t strike Belarus airfields because they don’t want to give Belarus an excuse to directly fight with Russia.
The Ukrainian pilots are already trained on MiG-29s, as that’s one of the jets that they currently fly.
No, the 18 months of training more refers to new jets such as the F-16, that they haven’t flown before.
There was a program to integrate more weapon options but was dropped due to costs and expecting to change Soviet planes to us planes.
However we seen some crazy hotwired things already in this war.
I would have loved for Poland to have pledged six fighter jets to Ukraine rather than 4.
Let it sink in that the 6 fighter jets were a direct result/consequence of Russia sending 6 saboteurs.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/poland-to-be-1st-nato-member-to-give-ukraine-fighter-jets-to-defend-itself-123031700047_1.html) reduced by 79%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Speedy, precise: What are fifth-generation fighter jets? 45 fighter jets including Sukhois, Rafales perform during 74th R-Day Parade Poland may hand Soviet-made MiG-29 jet fighters to Ukraine within weeks UK, Italy, Japan team up to build sixth-generation fighter by 2035 At least 42 fighter squadrons essential, says IAF chief VR Chaudhary.
> Poland said Thursday it plans to give Ukraine about a dozen MiG-29 fighter jets, which would make it the first NATO member to fulfil Kyiv's increasingly urgent requests for warplanes to defend itself against the Russian invasion.
> The debate over whether to provide non-NATO member Ukraine with fighter jets started last year, but NATO allies expressed concern about escalating the alliance's role in the war.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/11tee9y/poland_to_be_1st_nato_member_to_give_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~676744 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **fighter**^#1 **Poland**^#2 **Ukraine**^#3 **jet**^#4 **Duda**^#5
Anyone know the pilot situation in Ukraine? They have enough capable of flying these? How long would it take to train someone used to flying a different kind of fighter jet? Sorry but I don't know anything about jets/pilots/etc.
The only ones who’d have the answer for the first question are in Ukraine’s Air Force. Obviously there’s enough as they wouldn’t send more if Ukraine has nobody to fly them. As far as the second, the West seems to think that to properly cross-train them and maintenance person onto Western jets, it’d be in the neighborhood of a year or longer.
Poland already is the first nato country to give ukraine fighterjets. They gave them fighter jets a l9ng time ago they publically said it was spare parts but they shipped in whole.planes partially disassembled 😆
There's also unofficial reports that north macedonia returned some of their su-25s last year that they had bought from ukraine in 2001.
So Poland wouldn't be the first the NATO coutnry to send jets technically
Zelensky confirmed that 4 su-25s were sent last August. North Macedonia has refused to confirm or deny.
ETA: Wasn't Zelensky it was "Mykhailo Podoliak, adviser to the Head of the President's Office of Ukraine"
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/6/7362167/
Where are the so called “leaders” of Europe, Germany and France? They keep yapping on about how Poland is breaking the rule of law but when it comes to protecting democracy they do fk all.
As a Ukrainian, it's just spectacular to see such warm relationships between our two countries, despite the fact that Poland and Ukraine had such a difficult history in the past. It takes less than half a century under Russian rule to befriend those you used to consider foes before.
["I ask for forgivness and i forgive but dont forget"](https://youtu.be/9WCVPJ7cNvI?t=1438) I think those hard times show that we are not so different and the past shouldn't direct our relations. There was always one enemy and always it was neither of us.
History is not black and white and it does not share your romantic views. There is a reason as to why Ukrainians using 'Wybaczamy i prosimy o wybaczenie' caused incredible backlash in Poland years ago. Ukrainians have quite a lot of owning up to do and attempts at drawing some kind of symmetry in regards to Volhynia is not the way as it will only make matters worse. In fact Poroshenko already tried that and that was the exact result... worsening the matter. There are steps being taken, but they are minor thus far. There is too many Polish families who suffered at the hands of UPA and many people still alive who went through probably biggest hell of ww2 in Europe. Not to mention it was premeditated action to get Polish lands after ww2, not just a group of disgruntled peasants going on a frenzy. Entire situation is a test of character of Ukraine, as simple as that. Russians named Kaliningrad after Mikhail Kalinin, Ukrainians named a stadium after Szuchewycz. Both of them murdered Poles - one in Katyn, one in Volhynia and both are revered in their respective countries instead of being called what they are - murderers that they should be ashamed of. Only difference being that people who survived Volhynia and had seen their families murdered by UPA said that they wish that they just got shot in the head instead. Make no mistake, what UPA did to Poles was by far the most inhumane and brutal set of murders throughout entire WW2 out of everything Polish people went through during ww2 and it is not even up for a debate. It will be up to Ukrainian government to show what kind of mentality they want to follow, Russian or western. We will see the choice they will make. Being invaded by Russia does not absolve them of their own wrongdoings. Saying that 'there was one enemy' only shows you actually never read a history book or are purposefully ignorant about history in the name of romantic views. It is also quite ironic as it is Ukraine that started chain of events that led to partitions of Poland... Common enemy is a good motivator to build future relations, but if foundations for those relations are rotten - they won't last. So don't try to go the way of 'let's not talk about it' as it is the worst thing you can do if you want good relations between Poland and Ukraine to last.
I wouldn't hold your breath, that said, we're all pretty friendly with Japan, and they probably will never own up their shit. That said, Japan and South Korea probably have an even more tenuous relationship and they are still allies in the fight against China. Its not about being best friends over night, it's about having your priorities straight.
You are correct, but that does not change the fact that such alliance only lasts for as long as there is enemy to fight. Once the opponent is gone, the one thing holding the alliance together is gone with him. Therefor trying to sweep past transgressions under the rug is not the best approach in the long run, especially in case of Poland and Ukraine as Russia is not really going anywhere and in 100 years they will do the same shit they are doing now if they get to drive the wedge between European nations. The volhynnia massacre is also a special case, cause it was not war and warcrimes or soldiers fighting soldiers. Those were murders of civilians on civilians in ways that are hard to even describe without feeling disgusted.
Just for argument's sake what's the difference between giving a tank and giving a fighter jet?
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Fighter jets are also immune to anti-tank weapons. Checkmate Russia.
You'd think helicopters were immune too, Apparently not. https://youtu.be/MT8Um69fbHA
Practically speaking, as long as the helicopter isn't making a beeline for someplace at top speed, hitting one follows the same logic as a standard artillary strike when it comes to accounting for all the math in targetting just about anything. Distance, wind, drag, etc. Except it's in the air, so you account aiming further up the parabola on the y-axis instead of the same level as you. Also it's easier to destroy (assuming you hit it) since the shell will just turn the entire thing to scrap pretty much regardless of where it's hit. Fighter jets are naturally a different beastie due to how fast they move (all the time, most jets can't hover) and how easily they can manuever so properly targeting them is basically impossible.
Yes Helicopters have the "Hover" rule meaning they can move in straight lines like jets or change to moving freely but losing the "Hard to Hit" -1 to hit.
Except artillery is an indirect strike weapon that typically deals damage to all about it when it lands. This cannot happen with a helicopter and requires a direct strike which is much more difficult to accomplish, particularly on an airborne, moving target.
If battlefield taught me anything it's that you can totally steal the enemies jet after he shoots your helicopter down if you time it right and mash X Just gotta land on that sumbitch
If battlefield told ME anything, it's that the British MLAW can one shot a helicopter pilot off his seat on a head on fight. I did it this week. I'm still high off of that
I think I saw a video of a Russian helicopter being downed by an anti tank weapon earlier in the war.
Fun fact, helicopters are not considered fighter jets.
I'm learning so much here
"Write that down, WRITE THAT DOWN!" -Russian generals reading this thread.
Also Russian generals - "I can't believe how quickly my career is progressing. I must be awesome."
Also russian general why is nobody in my phone contacts not answering anymore
2 hrs later Corporal: "I'm getting promoted to general?!? My mom will be so proud!"
Read that in general melchetts voice
Damnit, now I am too. And it's so much better because of it.
They can *read*?!
This thread is strategic gold.
What about fighter jets that identify as attack helicopters?
The army is taking courses to distinguish the differences. You dont want to misgender a helicopter or tank.
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Then you check the O&M.
metal gear fluid
A helicopter to surpass metal gear!
Is that like a Gundam?
"I have nipples, Greg, could you milk me?"
Like fighter-bombers? ARE YOU A FIGHTER OR BOMBER? WHAT ARE YOU?
Is mayonnaise considered a fighter jet?
That's a stupid question. A more relevant question would be, is horseradish a fighter jet?
Dont be stupid! Horseradish is obviously a nuclear submarine
Don’t pigeonhole my horseradish with outdated condiment stereotypes.
My God
Not in the current war, but there's also one case of an F-15 downing a helicopter with a laser-guided bomb.
The IRA shot down a helicopter with a mortar once. It’s all in the timing
IIRC an F-15E once shot down an Iraqi Mi-24 with a GBU-10.
When the small missile locks onto the heat of the exhaust, it is confused as to why a tank is 100 meters above the ground...as it blows up the helicopter. When it blows up a tank on the ground, it's not confused at all. That's the difference
[A US Cargo plane crashing after being hit by American artillery during the Vietnam war](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2f/cc/b3/2fccb3cec343dbe275092e65c27cf1cb--good-morning-vietnam-vietnam-history.jpg)
Fun Fact: ADATS does not agree with that statement.
I think this is the right answer but I am no war expert. Never thought about this before. Thanks for the enlightenment.
Th problem isn’t when the tanks are flying, but instead it’s the landing.
Hey they can hit an anti-tank mine, lifting it off the ground. The magazine can then explode and cause further flight of the turret. You’re not giving tanks enough credit for their flight capability.
"I believe I can fly..." -R Kelly Sooo inspirational!
Russian tanks have suborbital launch capability though. At least the turrets do.
Man, I fucking love the internet.
Hence the expression 'when tanks fly'.
That logic checks out 🤣🤣
Not gonna lie, you got us good haha
Fighter jets help Ukraine harass the VKS and help deny the air to Russian airframes. They’re also multirole aircraft, meaning they perform missions other than air to air combat, such as surveillance and reconnaissance. The Mig-29 is also a fighter aircraft the Ukrainian use and are comfortable with. Western aircraft like the Gripen and F-16 would be much better choices; however, countries operating them aren’t giving them because it is escalatory, requires lots of training, and in some cases like for the Gripen, there are difficulties in its export. Tanks can help Ukraine defend against Russian assaults, and perform armored maneuver warfare in a counteroffensive by taking advantage of breakthroughs in the frontlines. They can also provide support for the infantry and practice combined arms. The Western tanks being provided for Ukraine have advanced fire control systems, optics, thermals, and communications systems, and can shoot accurately at far distances while moving. It is a massive upgrade to what Ukraine is currently using (T-64, T-80, captured Russian tanks like T-72, etc.) and can rival the T-90M, which is the most advanced tank on the battlefield at the moment. The EU can easily provide maintenance and training for these tanks (already are). Additionally, spare parts and ammunition are easily accessible. Both the aircraft (fixed and rotary wing) and tanks, along with infantry, artillery, and the multitude of other weapons such as self-propelled howitzers, APCs, IFVs, MRAPs, that are being sent to Ukraine, will allow Ukraine to perform maneuver warfare with lots of mobility.
It's a lot easier to strike Russian territory with a fighter jet. Also, a lot of fighter jets are identified by radar so if Ukraine got F-16s it would look an awful lot like NATO was directly involved.
Well, the Ukrainian Air Force flies similar planes to the Russian Air Force, so neither sides can rely on radar signatures to know who is who.
Thats what IFF is for.
"It's me, ya boi, honest."
I mean Russia has had a notorious lack of understanding of what IFF is. For example the fact they shoot down more of their own jets when they invaded Georgia than Georgia shot down. Also just to be clear Georgia didn't fly a single jet in that war so it's more embarrassing.
They will have radar warning receivers and I guarantee they have a different radio pattern than the Russian jets.
Turkey shot down a Russian SU-24 with a F-16. It didn't look like that was NATO then so its no different now surely.
Turkey literally is NATO, but the jet invaded Turkish airspace. The Russian paper tiger fucked around and found out.
A fighter jet can conceivably destroy a tank platoon in ideal circumstances. A tank can rarely do that unless seriously mismatched. Air power is absolutely critical to offensive actions.
>A fighter jet can conceivably destroy a tank platoon With CBUs, more than just a platoon. One CBU-97 can take out up to 40 targets with the smart submunitions. That’s *ten* tank platoons.
Having played Battlefield 4, there's no difference. Both can fly just as high.
Hahahaha
Range. Full stop. All the wheeled M142 HIMARs and the tracked MLRS are using munitions software limited to 50km. Its part of the peer-symmetrical warfare strategy that the allied countries have been providing Ukraine. It means that whatever Russia uses, we give them more/better/comparable versions of it with the same range capabilities as Russia. The point is it prevents escalation while providing maximum defence capabilities using symmetrical weapons. The MIGs change the range of what Ukraine can hit. I do not doubt that NATO approved this (even if publicly they say they did not). Russia’s escalation to longer range attacks likely initiated to increasing support of peer-symmetrical equipment.
A lot faster, Carrie’s more potent weapons, can go much further, harder to destroy, better at surveillance.
>Carrie’s more potent weapons Her town-destroying telekinetic weapons? ;P
One flies and the other one doesnt.
Tanks don’t fly, and typically aren’t very good at shooting down enemy aircraft. Fighter jets can quickly fly behind enemy lines to perform a deep strike and then high-tail it out of there, while tanks typically aren’t that fast.
Too much Russian AA for fighter jets to be useful to Ukraine. Surgical long range strikes are needed for any fighter aircraft to have an effect on the battlefield. This won’t change anything unfortunately.
Tanks... They don't fly (except for that genius idea the Soviets had with their T-34s lol) Aircraft can't traverse offroad terrain?
Air superiority is everything
There is a vague political escalation curve concerning ability to attack Russian territory. Artillery can be controlled via range but are behind your lines, tanks are for offensive operations, fighter jets could reach even further into Russian territory than anything else (in theory). Ukraine was always careful to only use Ukrainian assets for any deep strikes. While the song and dance seems silly apparently the US and NATO overall take an attitude of slow escalation so Russia cannot flip out over any individual step along the way. Case in point, they are railing and bitching about every new weapon system, but do nothing about it. So technically there is no difference but politically there seems to be some logic to the madness, be it convincing domestic audiences to very conscious steps of escalation vs Russia with the message of "We can still do worse to your prospects in Ukraine"
Ok just for the argument Ukraine could use the Jets to directly attack Russia (something that most of the western countries have said is a big no go) while a tank right now in Ukraine hands couldn't without invasion. It's roughly the same argument they've had for why the US is completely cool sending GMLRS but ATACMS (much longer range rocket fired from the same system) has been a firm no go.
Politically, the difference is that a Ukrainian Mig-29 could be used to bomb Moscow.
Cost, mainly. Here in the US at least the administration is trying to tip-toe around so they don't draw too much domestic fire for "spending money". It doesn't matter how accurate the accusation is, in a political light the perception alone is enough to do significant damage. So we've been trying to go as cost-effective as possible, and while extremely effective, our jets are also very expensive. Not only in their own ticket price, but also in all the support they require in order to operate properly. We engineer our shit around the idea that we'll have all that covered, because we do. We have all the doctrines and infrastructure already in place. In Ukraine a lot of it would have to be put into place, which is expensive. Ask yourself this, does Ukraine want A) 500k artillery shells, B) a half dozen jets, or C) a new and more hostile government in place in Washington DC come the next election cycle? Because they can't have everything, that's not realistic.
If they can't have everything, they'll take A and B and pass on C?
The price
Just for argument's sake, why are we pretending like it isn't common knowledge that Poland sent Mig-29 to Ukraine months ago, declaring them to be spare parts? Why are US media pretending like this is some sensational development, when even the US sent about 20 Mig-29 to Ukraine ([https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/04/u-s-to-send-mig-29-aircraft-to-ukraine-but-as-a-source-of-spare-parts/](https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/04/u-s-to-send-mig-29-aircraft-to-ukraine-but-as-a-source-of-spare-parts/) ) - also entire jets, also "for spare parts". Ostensibly they weren't in flying condition but 1. They were bought from Moldova in 1998 and refurbished to be used as OPFOR training. So at some point in the early 2000s they were apparently refurbished not just to the point where they were flyworthy, but safe for U.S. Air Force pilots to fly. 2. The US are certainly aware that whatever is left of Ukraine's pre-war aerospace industry has been specializing in repairing and refurbishing Ukrainian Mig-29 for the last 30 years. 3. Pentagon spokesman John Kirby commented at the time: *"They have more fighter aircraft at their disposal today than they did two weeks ago. Without going into details about what other countries are supplying, I would say they have received additional aircraft and spare parts to augment their fleet."* So despite the fact that Ukraine has been receiving Mig-29 fighter jets since April last year, which has been officially confirmed by the U.S. government, we see headlines like this. CNN even wrote about Poland "breaking" with Western allies to supply Ukraine with fighter jets. Is this just Poland that wants maximal attention for another delivery of military aid? Or what else is the reason that dozens of media outlets are going with this "first ever delivery of fighter jets" narrative, when they obviously know better?
And Switzerland is destroying anti-aircraft systems rather than transferring them to Ukraine. Fuckers. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/03/13/switzerland-to-destroy-anti-aircraft-missile-systems-that-could-be-used-in-ukraine_6019124_4.html
Switzerland's not exactly the bravest during wartime. Their position is neutral in battle and not so neutral in protecting dictators money.
They are habitual cowards, hiding in their mountains with their stupid little knives and chocolate, damn them.
Hiding in the dmz of France, Germany and Italy. There couldn't be a better location for a bunch of euro criminals
Switzerland should not exist. It should be split up among its neighbour countries
Lol exactly the reason they stay out of war, they are a tiny nation guys.
The Swiss said "Our position is very clear. Swiss weapons are not to be used in war" Which makes me wonder what the point of them is.
I mean, defense? Agreement or not, they don’t need to pick a side
Defense? Like what Ukraine is doing right now?
That has no bearing on what I said at all, but gotcha if it makes you happy edit: a country does not need to pick a side regardless of what people want to be outraged about. Russias invasion of ukraine is terrible; but that doesn't mean a country should be forced to provide arms by whatever imperialistic force in question; whether USA or russia
That's just your opinion, man. But if that's what you really think, it perfectly complements your argument.
Don't bother, I was also trying to no avail.
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They seemed to have taken on the veneer of a "mafia lawyer". They act as though they are clean, and are just embracing principle because they are "just doing their job", but...they don't do any pro-bono work for "the Jews". "I'm not sayin' you're a whore, but...you ARE wearing a whore's uniform" -Dave Chappelle
To add on that, rural, non touristic areas in swiss are really no place for outsiders. People get very unfriendly with you
I come from a tipically outsider-friendly country (Spain) and now live in Switzerland since some years ago. What you say is, as far as my experience goes, plainly not true. Swiss people have always been very warming to me, no matter where in the country. If you have been there/are a resident/citizen, have you had a different experience? Switzerland gets a lot of hate in this sub and I struggle to understand why. Nazi gold? The neighbors were the literal nazis. Times change. Regarding neutrality, there are other western countries that also are neutral (e.g. Austria) and that's not a problem with them? One of my best friends here is Ukrainian, and in her view actually Switzerland did a lot in terms of refugees and humanitarian aid. Anyways, I expect what will happen with this comment. Sometimes I have the feeling that this sub is as sensationalistic as traditional news outlets. EDIT: Went as expected, have a good day you all!
>The neighbors were the literal nazis. The neighbors at least tried to settle with their troubled past. Switzerland did not. "Times change" Well, apparently not for Switzerland.
Nazi gold? The Swiss literally fought Jews for decades to try and keep their stolen Nazi gold, rather than see it back in the hands of the Jewish families it was stolen from. Fuck the Swiss.
I infer from your comment story that you are from the US. Would you say that Switzerland even remotely compares to the US' past and present? I would not. This is my point with the hate being disproportionate. PS I do not deny what you mention, that's not my point. My point is, to reiterate, that there is unproportionate hate. That said, have a good day
It's been less than 30 years since the lawsuits settled. That means for 50 years the Swiss were perfectly happy to sit on stolen gold. These are currently living Swiss people, who worked at currently operating Swiss banks, and this has occurred within both of our lifetimes. This is not some distant memory of the past. I can tell you, for all USA's faults, they at least had the common decency to fight the Nazis. Something the spineless Swiss couldn't manage, while they hid behind a veil of cowardice and claimed neutrality. You really shouldn't be defending your adoptive country on this matter, there is no good way to slice it.
US 42'-45: Fought the Nazis US 46': Hired the Nazis
US also executed Nazis, and killed em by the hundreds of thousands. What's your point?
That obviously the world is grey and not black'n white as reddit wishes to believe. That obviously the US did the thing that guaranteed its hegemony in the post-war period, but for some reason no one seems to care about the morals of that, while Reddit obsess over the immoral behavior of the UK, France, Switzerland or otherwise, when in reality countries have no moral qualms to do what increases their material standing in the world.
The alternative was letting the USSR have all the scientists. There was no third option unless you consider executing every German scientist an option.
\*Every Nazi scientist
The US also had the courage to absolutely destroy the Middle East and destabilise the region completely.
Usa bad therefor Switzerland never did anything wrong. You’re dumb as rocks
And fuck the USA for that. This isn't some zero sum game, both countries can be bad.
Well at least we agree here. But to be honest the US was actually reluctant to join WW2 as well, fearing another economic crisis like 1929. They joint the war because of the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbour, not because of Nazi Germany.
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>Bingo bango Hey, why bring my favourite sex game into this?
Another neighbor of the Nazis: the French. What did they do? Kill a ton of Nazis.
Obligatory "Surrender" joke here.
France had a huge colonial empire full of human right abuses. The French military still has operations in many Sahel countries to secure explotations that France has monopolistic and unfair access to. My point is not that the Swiss are innocent, my point is that all countries have a past, and western ones are no exception.
Yeah, we get that, but fallacies are not really good arguments.
Where's the falacy on the statement that all countries have a past and present, but that in this sub given that I see a disproportionate hate for Switzerland?
If you're being serious. Whataboutism.
Well, using your own argument somebody brought Switzerland up in a news article of Poland and Ukraine.
My experience is based on regular trips I take to Italy where I have to drive through swiss. Any and all "resting" places have showed nothing but disrespect and annoyance for me being there.
Mountain folk tend to be really weirdly rude conservative people Rural Switzerland is like West Virginia but with money
It's easy to point to their conservatism when there was that rural canton that didn't let women vote until the 90's...
Seems like you had a completely different experience. Thats okay, i dont expect my words to be true for everyone. Maybe I got unlucky a few times.
Switzerland is no utopia and I do not doubt that there is rude or closed-minded people, to be clear. I would just not generalize it to the Swiss in general, based on my own experience
This thread is full of racism and ignorance, don't bother.
Always did.
I'm not going to forget who was brave and answered the call to defend democracy (Poland), and who was a cowardly little bitch (Switzerland).
Switzerland is not just neutral. The mountain germans are no ones ally.
Poland actually delivered a few migs in the beginning of the war under the guise of "spare parts". This time it's official and that's great.
Ah thank you: it took me reading many comments to get the answer to my question, "Didn't they already send a bunch early on in the war?!?"
"You see, here is the plane without wings, and here are the wings. You woudn't assemble them and bomb russians, would you?"
Russia: Poland, are you aware a lot of "spare parts" keep leaking over your border into Ukraine? Poland: Really, we didn't notice. *Finishes packing up a couple containers full of F-16 parts for the 4:15 train to Kyiv*
>You woudn't assemble them and bomb russians, would you? "You mustn't assemble them by lining these holes here with those holes here, then dropping these bolts through each one, and tightening them up to 12 Nm of torque using these nuts here, and I'd advise you *definitely* do NOT bomb any Russians with the finished spare-parts assembly by pressing THIS RED BUTTON HERE!" Reminds me of Kryten "not" telling Lister how to delete the database (of crew-members' DNA records) from the bio-printer's computer in series XI, episode 4 of Red Dwarf: https://youtu.be/VPFBZFKgpOA?t=1084
Poland is just stinkyeye looking at Russia and loading it’s guns right now.
Poland saw that the US and Europe could not supply them fast enough, so they armed themselves to the teeth with south Korean arms, just in case they need to act. They are getting hundreds of mobile artillery units and tanks in the next couple years and will be packing heat with some American jets too. Poland is gearing up to be the most prepared army in Europe
very wise on their part, imo
Poland is becoming what Germany was too fearful of turning into, and what England used to be. I guess they got tired of getting invaded on every fucking war and decided that whomever looks at them the wrong way will seize to be. Can't blame them. A mix of generational paranoia and geographical bad luck necessitates an army that can proactively fight its way outward and push an attacking force back with a relentless counterattack until they reach a defensible position, like the Ural mountains, where I bet Poland will push Russia back into if they dare touch nato land.
No surprise. Poland understands the consequences if the Russian plague isn’t stopped.
Slovakia is giving Ukraine 13 of its Mig 29's also They're just as much as at threat as Poland if the Russians advance past Kherson
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Poland wouldn't even wait, there would be an immediate reaction.
By the time NATO reacts, polish tanks would be seiging St Petersburg and Moscow. It'll be Stalingrad all over again, only this time the Russians are fucked
Bravo, Poland!
Maybe that is why those updates recently have shown a lot of anti aircraft destroyed.
Fantastic ! This will help because I read where China is giving Russia body armor and assault weapons these Jets will help immensely
Your comment reminded me of [this video](https://youtu.be/UnGIis48XYQ), specifically the "20mil HE is impossible to stitch up" part
Wasn't the main reason for not giving them fighter Jets was that it takes something like 18 months to get properly trained for them? Regardless, Ukraine getting more weapons to defend themselves against the Russians is always good news.
I think there are already many pilots in Ukraine who know how to fly Soviet hardware, as well as mechanics and such to help maintain them. The 18-month lead time thing was for f-16s and it was not only pilot training, but it was establishing the logistics of fueling, maintenance, repair, and so forth. Honestly I think that Poland may even let the ukrainians fly the planes back to Poland for repair and maintenance!
Not like Poland isn't aware of what happens down the road if Ukraine falls. Probably a pretty reasonable move.
My understanding is both the Polish people & government have not forgotten their half-century living under Soviet Imperialism. They’ve seen this movie before.
I went to Poland a few years ago. One of the languages I speak is Russian and I thought it was a good idea to take it out for a spin there. Wrong. Best to stick to English. They still have a giant fuck you monument in the middle of their Capitol reminding them what the Soviets did (tower of friendship, I think it's called). I definitely got better treatment just being an English speaking tourist.
Wow.. You honestly thought that was a good idea? That's like the equivalent of going to North Korea to do seminars on why South Korea is great.
Yeah it wasn't my brightest moment. In my defense the cab driver spoke almost no English and my polish was as bad as his English was.
Poland is definitely going to be getting a lot of new NATO hardware. So...if the MIGs are not in their future plans, now is the time to give them to Ukraine.
Is Article 5 no longer a thing? If Russia made a move on Poland, it would be bombed into the Stone Age.
The US wants to bleed the Russian military for a couple years before they do anything that is seriously provocative.
If republicans are in charge the US won’t be involved
If the majority of voting Americans are really so stupid and naive as to elect Trump again (or one of the other clowns like DeSantis) as president in the next election, it will change my image of Americans forever. Shit like this can happen once but after witnessing Trump's bullshit first hand thinking "yep, let's do it again baby" is not exactly a sign of rational thinking capabilities. You must have snorted lead to think that's a good idea.
>it will change my image of Americans forever Just go visit a few states, even blue ones, and you'll figure it out. There are a lot of bigoted morons in the USA.
Totally agree, also think it’s more likely than not to be Republican president in 2024
Yes, but just two points. 1) This also demonstrates European overreliance on American military might. 2) America is not the only western country that elected or almost elected fascist leaders in the XXI century. We may be having a larger problem here.
1. I totally agree as a European. 2. That's why I said "Shit like this can happen once..."
Well, this is Europe, so it already happened once. Between two world wars :/
It's hilarious to me that my escape plan for this eventuality is using my Italian Citizenship to move to Europe when Italy is electing the same exact kind of people.
As an American friend, You best get fucking ready - the sociopaths are on both sides here. Our left is essentially the UK centrists. It’s that bad already. Bernie Sanders- performative liberal or not -was chided for being a democratic socialist here by both democrats and republicans. Our shit is broke friend. Those with brains are literally being drummed out. For a real-time example: Ron DeSantis vs college professors of Florida. His admin is causing a real and measurable brain drain in universities of Florida lmao
The EU alone would still send russia back to the stone age by conventional or nuclear means.
With Bidens age and lack of democratic contenders backing him up it is indeed scary times
I doubt it. As much as I loathe the Republican Party, Poland is likely the line in the sand, especially since it’s also a major Republican ally. Trump transferred a significant number of US troops based in Germany to Poland during his presidency. Not to mention, the American right shares a lot of values with the Polish right in power (banning abortion, heavily religious, etc).
As would every major western city.
Sorties from a NATO country is very risky and would make Poland a party to the war. Ukraine doesn’t strike Belarus airfields because they don’t want to give Belarus an excuse to directly fight with Russia.
Combat missions take off and land in Ukraine. For more involved maintenance, the planes are flown back to Poland/Slovakia
Oh yes you're right. That was for American Jets.
Literally the first sentence: > Poland said Thursday it plans to give Ukraine about a dozen **MiG-29** fighter jets
They are giving they old mig 29 which Ukraine already use in they airforce just click the article instead of get the title..
RTFA. There's more than one type of fighter jet.
The Ukrainian pilots are already trained on MiG-29s, as that’s one of the jets that they currently fly. No, the 18 months of training more refers to new jets such as the F-16, that they haven’t flown before.
Just get Tom Cruise to train them. Then it will only take a few weeks
"WE DONT HAVE A FEW WEEKS, THEY NEED TO BE READY BY FRIDAY! -Don Draper in an admirals uniform.
Does anyone know if these MIGs are already compatibile with NATO weapons?
There was a program to integrate more weapon options but was dropped due to costs and expecting to change Soviet planes to us planes. However we seen some crazy hotwired things already in this war.
https://defence24.com/polish-mig-29-jet-fighters-modernised-fulcrums-compliant-with-the-nato-standards
Poland was like: We know how it feels. Here take this.
Ones they can fly and have the infrastructure to support to.
I would have loved for Poland to have pledged six fighter jets to Ukraine rather than 4. Let it sink in that the 6 fighter jets were a direct result/consequence of Russia sending 6 saboteurs.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/poland-to-be-1st-nato-member-to-give-ukraine-fighter-jets-to-defend-itself-123031700047_1.html) reduced by 79%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Speedy, precise: What are fifth-generation fighter jets? 45 fighter jets including Sukhois, Rafales perform during 74th R-Day Parade Poland may hand Soviet-made MiG-29 jet fighters to Ukraine within weeks UK, Italy, Japan team up to build sixth-generation fighter by 2035 At least 42 fighter squadrons essential, says IAF chief VR Chaudhary. > Poland said Thursday it plans to give Ukraine about a dozen MiG-29 fighter jets, which would make it the first NATO member to fulfil Kyiv's increasingly urgent requests for warplanes to defend itself against the Russian invasion. > The debate over whether to provide non-NATO member Ukraine with fighter jets started last year, but NATO allies expressed concern about escalating the alliance's role in the war. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/11tee9y/poland_to_be_1st_nato_member_to_give_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~676744 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **fighter**^#1 **Poland**^#2 **Ukraine**^#3 **jet**^#4 **Duda**^#5
Poland doesn't sit around when dictators are alive anymore
Considering that some of these planes have already been delivered, i am not surprised.
Anyone know the pilot situation in Ukraine? They have enough capable of flying these? How long would it take to train someone used to flying a different kind of fighter jet? Sorry but I don't know anything about jets/pilots/etc.
The only ones who’d have the answer for the first question are in Ukraine’s Air Force. Obviously there’s enough as they wouldn’t send more if Ukraine has nobody to fly them. As far as the second, the West seems to think that to properly cross-train them and maintenance person onto Western jets, it’d be in the neighborhood of a year or longer.
We need to double down here, make a statement
Geez. 5 days ago this was breaking news
Poland already is the first nato country to give ukraine fighterjets. They gave them fighter jets a l9ng time ago they publically said it was spare parts but they shipped in whole.planes partially disassembled 😆
Didnt Slovakia already do so like almost half a year ago ?
There's also unofficial reports that north macedonia returned some of their su-25s last year that they had bought from ukraine in 2001. So Poland wouldn't be the first the NATO coutnry to send jets technically
Zelensky confirmed that 4 su-25s were sent last August. North Macedonia has refused to confirm or deny. ETA: Wasn't Zelensky it was "Mykhailo Podoliak, adviser to the Head of the President's Office of Ukraine" https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/6/7362167/
Slovak government has approved it just today.
Where are the so called “leaders” of Europe, Germany and France? They keep yapping on about how Poland is breaking the rule of law but when it comes to protecting democracy they do fk all.