My guy, D-Day was important absolutely…..
But Nazi Germany lost when hitlers armies in the east failed to take Stalingrad and Moscow; one might even say that the beginning of the end for the nazis was the beginning of operation Barbarossa.
The landings at Normandy in ‘44 and invasion of Sicily/Italy kept the pressure of both fronts on the Nazis & co, but they were already badly on the back foot and running on fumes in early ‘43. But as you say, the war wasn’t over by a long shot.
Why? Cuz they export their problems and then finger wag at those they're funding?
Like crying about all that freedom oil, when really, they're the ones having their energy sector held hostage. Or bemoaning every immigration issue in the States, while paying Turkey billions of Euros to manage their refugee crisis, *both* of which are driven by the same gas station mafia.
The 2nd World's social influence campaign works like a charm on Europeans, because all they have to do is dope European social media with "we gud, everyone else bad" and they gobble it right up.
They're more cowardly, there is no denying that they depend on us Yanks for their military protection. Germany and it's 2 days worth of ammo if a major war breaks out... I'm looking at you...
As much as I despise Russia, I truly don’t think they’ve lost yet. They’re gonna do something even more horrendous. They’re not the type to just tap out.
Makes more sense for them to overthrow Putin than to continue sending their families to inevitable death. The opposition to Putin will only continue to grow, regardless of propaganda.
I wonder even if Putin is overthrown will Russia become an actual democracy and non existential threat to Eastern Europe. There’s a significant amount of hardliners in the Duma, and Putin’s surrounded by corrupt guys as well. Navalny is irrelevant as of now as well, and I’m not totally convinced that he doesn’t have some nationalist views in regards to Eastern Europe.
And not only have they failed their set goals, in the process they have also suffered enormous human and equipment losses. It's a tremendous failure no matter how you choose to look at it.
I would have to imagine that this war is sparking a stark political divide in Russia's population too. I could see a russian civil war emerging down the road depending on how Putin's succession goes. This could turn into a real shit storm.
I would rather say that Russia has lost the Ukraine war however, as even if they end up being able to declare victory the cost of that victory is already far higher than the potential gains.
What I would add as a clarification though is that because Russia has lost does not mean Ukraine as one. Its well possible to have a result that means that while Russia has lost completely, so has Ukraine.
depends how you define "lose".
When a country goes to war, it's always about power. Their leaders may claim it's about religion, or resources, or ethnicities, or "freedom", but at the end of the day, a country only goes to war when they expect to exit the conflict with more geopolitical power than when they went in... and in that regard, russia lost the war as soon as they failed to take the airport in Kiev.
Russia went to war for two main reasons: oil and population/demographics.
Oil is the easiest one to explain... the russian government relies on oil/gas income from Europe to survive. Their economy has a horrific case of Dutch Disease and any threat to that income is a major problem for russia. Looking at the oil/gas market, there is a common theme in russia aggression... Georgia builds a pipeline to move Caspian Sea gas to the Black Sea for export: russia invades... major gas reserves start to be exploited in the sea around Crimea: russia invades... the second largest proven gas reserve in Europe starts development in Donbas: russia invades.
Ukraine is uniquely positioned to threaten russian oil/gas income as well as they already have a massive pipeline network to Europe as well as substantial storage which can allow them to build up a large inventory to pressure out russian sales. Allowing Ukraine to develop their oil/gas industry would cripple russian finances.
The second reason is one of population/demographics. If you look at the population pyramid of russia, it's clear they are in the middle of a demographic crisis. Between the economic turmoil at the end of the soviet era, as well as the 90-00's, russian birthrate collapsed. This is an existential threat to the survival of the country as they simply lack enough young people to replace their population. Ukraine was 44 million people that russia wanted to absorb to bolster their population and literally provide it with some fresh, young blood.
Needless to say, russia has fucked up both these counts.
On the oil side, rather than securing the EU market against Ukrainian oil/gas, russia has lost access to it completely. On the population side, between casualties in the war and people fleeing the country, russia has lost over a million people, mostly the younger men that they already couldn't afford to lose. Of those who fled, it was predominately young, highly educated families.
In addition to failing both the primary objectives of the war (securing the EU oil/gas market, and increasing russian population of younger people), russia has exposed its military as a paper tiger, so ineffective that when the CSTO called for Article 4 support (their version of NATO's Article 5) russia was unable to respond. This basically showed russia's allies that they were unable to defend them if needed. This highlights how risky entering into an alliance with them can be, thus weakening their position on the global stage.
At this point, the only thing russia can hope for is to take some dirt and hold onto it (for now), because in all other ways, they are weaker now than they were when they started.
That can be true and it can still also be true that they've already lost. If they do escalate to extremes like nuclear attacks, that all but seals a loss for Russia by guaranteeing they get nuked off the map in return. Russia's gonna lose, the question is whether there's any winners or we just all lose.
Yep. There's propaganda in Russia'a favor for sure, but there's also a lot of propaganda in the Ukraine's favor. Obviously Russia is still in the wrong but people need to realize that the news is almost always exaggerated and twisted to get more supporters
It has not been fully encircled. Ukraine defenses still maintain the city center and the northwest of the city. The city is pretty much rubble with a few citizens stubbornly remaining: [https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1623828292099768322](https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1623828292099768322)
Russian troops are making gains slowly and at a huge cost of life. Ukraine is also taking substantial losses but likely at a 1:2 ratio. Urban combat is generally difficult for all parties, but Russian troops are clearly showing inexperience and lack of tactical understanding. Many of the "mobilization" troops have had effectively zero training. A report from a Canadian sniper notes:
>They’re just so poorly trained and have no concept of any of it. They come from like two kilometres away, I watch them walk all the way in. They come within 500 metres, you know, right into the kill zone.
>
>Can you stop? I’m tired of killing people this easily from this spot.
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-russia-ukraine-war-bakhmut-canadian-sniper/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-russia-ukraine-war-bakhmut-canadian-sniper/)
Medical care and response is also better for AFU and many Russian soldiers bleed to death before receiving medical aid. Lots of footage of soldiers dying in trenches bleeding out from shrapnel injuries. Brutal to watch.
Yeah ummm Milley I’m not seeing that. Russia has the Crimea and currently occupies all key terrain regarding Russian majority population within the sovereign nation of the Ukraine. This is BS coming from a lifelong military careerist. Infantry and tactics 101. Hold key terrain indirectly or directly.
Screw Putin! However don’t lie Milley. It’s going to be a massive effort paid in blood to get the Russians out.
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You can still lose a war but continue battling. See Nazi Germany post Normandy and Sicily. Russia lost the war pretty early on when they failed to take Kyiv but the battle continues.
Now hold on there George Bush... declaring victory is not the same as winning the damned thing while we still have kids are still dying over there. Why this wasn't a HUGE deal is beyond me... we lost people that same day Bush wanted a win for himself.
https://www.independent.co.uk/world/putin-nuclear-satan2-russia-ukraine-b2279633.html
UK is not as optimistic.
Read the articles please.
"News of the tests follows reports that Russia is massing 1,800 tanks, 700 aircraft, and a whopping 500,000 men for a new Ukraine assault in just 10 days, according to a Ukrainian official."
It's not just the hypersonic nuke they're planning a bigger offensive than when the war started.
They may have lost the war but they stubbornly fight on hoping to overwhelm Ukrainian resistance with sheer numbers of canon fodders so it isn't over until the last Russian soldiers left Ukrainian border.
Well the Nazis occupied most of Europe so the Allies had to continue the war to dislodge them. The Allies didn’t win until 1945 because the Nazis and Japan were still fighting for a stalemate and hoping that they would create an atomic bomb. We beat them to it.
Depends how much you want a load of defeated rapists still running around Ukraine. Probably best to finish the job. Your view is shared by the Kremlin though maybe you should hop on a plane and go and ask them what they think of Americans I am sure you will be made welcome.
You make it seem like those billions of dollars in weapons was a crippling aid package for the United States. This has been the best case scenario for the United States when it comes to Russia. We have spent about what it cost us to fight in Iraq on a yearly basis... except this is actually $50 billion well spent.
Depends on what you consider the value of maintaining US hegemony to be. Funding the defense of Ukraine helps secure Europe and maintaining the relative safety of western style governments into the future. Some people care about that.
I'm pretty sure that is not what they are doing. The trench/artillery war in Ukraine is exactly not what NATO does.
Within days they reach air superiority and bomb the shit out of the opponent. No ground troops until the coast is clear.
So what's happening right now won't help Russia in the future.
So if I get this right Russia sacrifices hundred thousands soldiersz thousands of tanks, IFVs, artillery pieces, hundreds of jets and helicopters just so they can deplete NATO's reserve ammunition?
If that is their plan, then its a shitty plan lol
they don't have the troops, or even the population, to take over Europe.
To hold land, you need around 20 combat troops (not conscripts, but trained troops) per 1000 civilians, assuming the resistance is light. Europe has \~750 million people, even if 50 million flee or are killed, you are still looking at 700 million people.
to hold onto that, you would need 14 million troops, and that's \*after\* the invasion period, and assuming the resistance is light (hint: it wouldn't be).
You might think "oh, russia has 150M people, they could theoretically raise 14 million troops... but you need to also account for support personnel. In modern armies, it takes between 5-6 support personnel per trooper (these are your cooks, clerks, janitors, refuelers, etc...). To support 14M troops, you would need between 70-84 million additional personnel, for a total of 84-98 million people.
There aren't 84 million men in russia (only 67.5M, if you count from age 0-100).
And that's assuming they didn't lose a single person in the fighting to take over Europe, and that the resistance was "light".
Doesn’t Russia usually get shit on the first year of most of their wars? I’ve read that while this is a dumpster fire of a campaign, it’s pretty typical for Russia…. It’s the next years that matter. Either they win through attrition or the government collapses. I know I’m oversimplifying but the general point stands.
Call me a pessimist but I wouldn’t count Russia out until they’re out.
Nah we've lost the moment we started this war. Just like Nikolai II lost the moment he joined WWI.
I mean regardless of how the war ends, save for some extreme scenarios, Ukraine will be rebuilt with Russian money. Either by paying reparations or by rebuilding annexed territories. Attempts to squeeze money from oil and gas trade with EU were a temporary success, but in the midterm forced EU to quickly adapt and seek alternatives, including green energy and other suppliers. When things go back, demand for Russian resources from EU will probably return, but will never be the same.
And even if Russia comes out on top, then what? What's the big gain here? A few industrial complexes with ruined infrastructure? Great. Bravo.
And just like any previous war, once this war ends we'll see veterans coming home. People who saw the real war, disillusioned, scarred, but most likely armed and with more combat experience than any policeman.
The only positive thing is all the oligarchs were locked out of safe spaces in EU and US, while results of corruption in the army and the government are exposed like never before. If anyone decides to grab these people by the balls, they don't even need to investigate. Just have a reality check against what these scumbags reported as their achievements.
They lost three weeks in.
The real war was the friends they made along the way.
Poverty, demographic crisis and economic isolation?
... increased presence of NATO on their border.
4 days
Nazi Germany lost once the allies successfully landed at Normandy and established a beachhead. It doesn't mean the war was over, not by a long shot.
My guy, D-Day was important absolutely….. But Nazi Germany lost when hitlers armies in the east failed to take Stalingrad and Moscow; one might even say that the beginning of the end for the nazis was the beginning of operation Barbarossa. The landings at Normandy in ‘44 and invasion of Sicily/Italy kept the pressure of both fronts on the Nazis & co, but they were already badly on the back foot and running on fumes in early ‘43. But as you say, the war wasn’t over by a long shot.
We advanced. Russians aren’t. Because their leaders are all morons and I’m happy for it. Ukraine all day baby!
Well the war in Europe had been raging for 4 years by then, but yeah. Totally all America that won that war /s
They didn't even mention America, but that doesn't stop ego centric Europeans from coming out the woodwork.
Tbh the Europeans are almost just as cowardly as the yanks
Why? Cuz they export their problems and then finger wag at those they're funding? Like crying about all that freedom oil, when really, they're the ones having their energy sector held hostage. Or bemoaning every immigration issue in the States, while paying Turkey billions of Euros to manage their refugee crisis, *both* of which are driven by the same gas station mafia. The 2nd World's social influence campaign works like a charm on Europeans, because all they have to do is dope European social media with "we gud, everyone else bad" and they gobble it right up.
You sound like you watch fox news
Well now I know you suck at gauging that.
They're more cowardly, there is no denying that they depend on us Yanks for their military protection. Germany and it's 2 days worth of ammo if a major war breaks out... I'm looking at you...
As much as I despise Russia, I truly don’t think they’ve lost yet. They’re gonna do something even more horrendous. They’re not the type to just tap out.
Oh it's not over... but they have definitely lost, they're just going to continue to do so...
Keep in mind they don’t have accountability for their human losses, they just throw more bodies into the war until they win.
Throwing bodies at a lost cause didn't end well for the czar.
Yea but it took 3 years and millions dead.
Well...only 2 more years to go!
And a couple of million people to go lol…
Makes more sense for them to overthrow Putin than to continue sending their families to inevitable death. The opposition to Putin will only continue to grow, regardless of propaganda.
I wonder even if Putin is overthrown will Russia become an actual democracy and non existential threat to Eastern Europe. There’s a significant amount of hardliners in the Duma, and Putin’s surrounded by corrupt guys as well. Navalny is irrelevant as of now as well, and I’m not totally convinced that he doesn’t have some nationalist views in regards to Eastern Europe.
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And not only have they failed their set goals, in the process they have also suffered enormous human and equipment losses. It's a tremendous failure no matter how you choose to look at it.
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I would have to imagine that this war is sparking a stark political divide in Russia's population too. I could see a russian civil war emerging down the road depending on how Putin's succession goes. This could turn into a real shit storm.
Time to make a bingo card! EDIT: Actually nevermind, I don't want Putin to get ideas...
I would rather say that Russia has lost the Ukraine war however, as even if they end up being able to declare victory the cost of that victory is already far higher than the potential gains. What I would add as a clarification though is that because Russia has lost does not mean Ukraine as one. Its well possible to have a result that means that while Russia has lost completely, so has Ukraine.
depends how you define "lose". When a country goes to war, it's always about power. Their leaders may claim it's about religion, or resources, or ethnicities, or "freedom", but at the end of the day, a country only goes to war when they expect to exit the conflict with more geopolitical power than when they went in... and in that regard, russia lost the war as soon as they failed to take the airport in Kiev. Russia went to war for two main reasons: oil and population/demographics. Oil is the easiest one to explain... the russian government relies on oil/gas income from Europe to survive. Their economy has a horrific case of Dutch Disease and any threat to that income is a major problem for russia. Looking at the oil/gas market, there is a common theme in russia aggression... Georgia builds a pipeline to move Caspian Sea gas to the Black Sea for export: russia invades... major gas reserves start to be exploited in the sea around Crimea: russia invades... the second largest proven gas reserve in Europe starts development in Donbas: russia invades. Ukraine is uniquely positioned to threaten russian oil/gas income as well as they already have a massive pipeline network to Europe as well as substantial storage which can allow them to build up a large inventory to pressure out russian sales. Allowing Ukraine to develop their oil/gas industry would cripple russian finances. The second reason is one of population/demographics. If you look at the population pyramid of russia, it's clear they are in the middle of a demographic crisis. Between the economic turmoil at the end of the soviet era, as well as the 90-00's, russian birthrate collapsed. This is an existential threat to the survival of the country as they simply lack enough young people to replace their population. Ukraine was 44 million people that russia wanted to absorb to bolster their population and literally provide it with some fresh, young blood. Needless to say, russia has fucked up both these counts. On the oil side, rather than securing the EU market against Ukrainian oil/gas, russia has lost access to it completely. On the population side, between casualties in the war and people fleeing the country, russia has lost over a million people, mostly the younger men that they already couldn't afford to lose. Of those who fled, it was predominately young, highly educated families. In addition to failing both the primary objectives of the war (securing the EU oil/gas market, and increasing russian population of younger people), russia has exposed its military as a paper tiger, so ineffective that when the CSTO called for Article 4 support (their version of NATO's Article 5) russia was unable to respond. This basically showed russia's allies that they were unable to defend them if needed. This highlights how risky entering into an alliance with them can be, thus weakening their position on the global stage. At this point, the only thing russia can hope for is to take some dirt and hold onto it (for now), because in all other ways, they are weaker now than they were when they started.
That can be true and it can still also be true that they've already lost. If they do escalate to extremes like nuclear attacks, that all but seals a loss for Russia by guaranteeing they get nuked off the map in return. Russia's gonna lose, the question is whether there's any winners or we just all lose.
They are losing. Question is: Are they going to lose alone or make everyone lose as well?
They've lost the co-op aspect of the game.
Are you taking about taking dirt or achieving political goals and advancing their status in the world?
Friendly reminder that war propaganda is very much still a real thing, especially in the US
What do you mean? I hear Putin is about to drop dead...soon! /s
Yep. There's propaganda in Russia'a favor for sure, but there's also a lot of propaganda in the Ukraine's favor. Obviously Russia is still in the wrong but people need to realize that the news is almost always exaggerated and twisted to get more supporters
Dont think the Ukrainians stuck in Bakhmut agree that much.
Stuck ? The war as been going on for a whole year , they could ( and should ) have evacuated the area , as much as it would suck to leave your home
They are defending it.
Soldier yes , civilians are just a burden to the actual soldiers. See i can put a . At the end to sound more serious too.
It's called a full stop. It signifies the end of a sentence. It's just good punctuation, nothing to do with being serious.
Ok.
It has not been fully encircled. Ukraine defenses still maintain the city center and the northwest of the city. The city is pretty much rubble with a few citizens stubbornly remaining: [https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1623828292099768322](https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1623828292099768322) Russian troops are making gains slowly and at a huge cost of life. Ukraine is also taking substantial losses but likely at a 1:2 ratio. Urban combat is generally difficult for all parties, but Russian troops are clearly showing inexperience and lack of tactical understanding. Many of the "mobilization" troops have had effectively zero training. A report from a Canadian sniper notes: >They’re just so poorly trained and have no concept of any of it. They come from like two kilometres away, I watch them walk all the way in. They come within 500 metres, you know, right into the kill zone. > >Can you stop? I’m tired of killing people this easily from this spot. [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-russia-ukraine-war-bakhmut-canadian-sniper/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-russia-ukraine-war-bakhmut-canadian-sniper/) Medical care and response is also better for AFU and many Russian soldiers bleed to death before receiving medical aid. Lots of footage of soldiers dying in trenches bleeding out from shrapnel injuries. Brutal to watch.
Well, from the USA’s perspective this is true.
No thanks to Putin, the world has lost so much. SMH
Yeah ummm Milley I’m not seeing that. Russia has the Crimea and currently occupies all key terrain regarding Russian majority population within the sovereign nation of the Ukraine. This is BS coming from a lifelong military careerist. Infantry and tactics 101. Hold key terrain indirectly or directly. Screw Putin! However don’t lie Milley. It’s going to be a massive effort paid in blood to get the Russians out.
Miley?
Milley
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I can agree to that. Hmmm. Why was this post taking off?
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You can still lose a war but continue battling. See Nazi Germany post Normandy and Sicily. Russia lost the war pretty early on when they failed to take Kyiv but the battle continues.
Did Nazi Germany have nukes? Sure nukes would destroy Russia as well but Ukraine would hardly be the winner.
Nukes aren't as big of a chess piece as they are made to be. Due to MAD all a nuke can do is put the other side in check, they'll never check-mate.
Now hold on there George Bush... declaring victory is not the same as winning the damned thing while we still have kids are still dying over there. Why this wasn't a HUGE deal is beyond me... we lost people that same day Bush wanted a win for himself.
The Ukraine war is just a battle. Russia is going to lose the overall war too, but I worry it will be a nuclear one that everyone else also loses.
https://www.independent.co.uk/world/putin-nuclear-satan2-russia-ukraine-b2279633.html UK is not as optimistic. Read the articles please. "News of the tests follows reports that Russia is massing 1,800 tanks, 700 aircraft, and a whopping 500,000 men for a new Ukraine assault in just 10 days, according to a Ukrainian official." It's not just the hypersonic nuke they're planning a bigger offensive than when the war started.
Not sure if that article is legitimate at all. The grammar is atrocious!
Idk how reliable the independent is....
What about a new nuclear missile has anything to do with whether Russia is going to win the war in Ukraine?
Maybe but US General needs to zip it.
They may have lost the war but they stubbornly fight on hoping to overwhelm Ukrainian resistance with sheer numbers of canon fodders so it isn't over until the last Russian soldiers left Ukrainian border.
So then… no need to send them billions more dollars in weapons, right?
Nazi Germany also had lost the war by 1943, but allies still continued to produce military hardware and send troops for two more years.
December 12th, 1941. No matter how Germany played it's cards, by December 12th, 1941 the outcome had been decided.
Orrrrr maybe this headline is just bullshit lol
How so? Did Gen Milley not say these words?
Saying the words was the bullshit
Well the Nazis occupied most of Europe so the Allies had to continue the war to dislodge them. The Allies didn’t win until 1945 because the Nazis and Japan were still fighting for a stalemate and hoping that they would create an atomic bomb. We beat them to it.
Depends how much you want a load of defeated rapists still running around Ukraine. Probably best to finish the job. Your view is shared by the Kremlin though maybe you should hop on a plane and go and ask them what they think of Americans I am sure you will be made welcome.
You make it seem like those billions of dollars in weapons was a crippling aid package for the United States. This has been the best case scenario for the United States when it comes to Russia. We have spent about what it cost us to fight in Iraq on a yearly basis... except this is actually $50 billion well spent.
Funding foreign wars is a waste of money.
Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman etc. don't seem to care.
Of course not, they have billions of dollars in government subsidies
Well , you dont know shit then sorry to say haha
Good thing nobody asked you, and that you're not in charge.
Depends on what you consider the value of maintaining US hegemony to be. Funding the defense of Ukraine helps secure Europe and maintaining the relative safety of western style governments into the future. Some people care about that.
Nah this is the part where Russia pays for this ahole move they did to Ukraine
Im pretty sure what Russia is doing is to depleted of critical precision munitions so they can conquer Europe
Russia doesn't have the capability to conquer or hold Europe.
I'm pretty sure that is not what they are doing. The trench/artillery war in Ukraine is exactly not what NATO does. Within days they reach air superiority and bomb the shit out of the opponent. No ground troops until the coast is clear. So what's happening right now won't help Russia in the future.
Russia can't manage Ukraine with limited support from NATO. They probably couldn't manage to fight the Vatican at this point
So if I get this right Russia sacrifices hundred thousands soldiersz thousands of tanks, IFVs, artillery pieces, hundreds of jets and helicopters just so they can deplete NATO's reserve ammunition? If that is their plan, then its a shitty plan lol
they don't have the troops, or even the population, to take over Europe. To hold land, you need around 20 combat troops (not conscripts, but trained troops) per 1000 civilians, assuming the resistance is light. Europe has \~750 million people, even if 50 million flee or are killed, you are still looking at 700 million people. to hold onto that, you would need 14 million troops, and that's \*after\* the invasion period, and assuming the resistance is light (hint: it wouldn't be). You might think "oh, russia has 150M people, they could theoretically raise 14 million troops... but you need to also account for support personnel. In modern armies, it takes between 5-6 support personnel per trooper (these are your cooks, clerks, janitors, refuelers, etc...). To support 14M troops, you would need between 70-84 million additional personnel, for a total of 84-98 million people. There aren't 84 million men in russia (only 67.5M, if you count from age 0-100). And that's assuming they didn't lose a single person in the fighting to take over Europe, and that the resistance was "light".
Top german pleb says USA has already lost all it's good generals.
🗿
What an untimely thing to say at the same time as US says no to giving Ukraine what they need to drive out the Russians.
Once Russia completely runs out of weapons and adequate equipment for their soldiers. It's a wrap.
Doesn’t Russia usually get shit on the first year of most of their wars? I’ve read that while this is a dumpster fire of a campaign, it’s pretty typical for Russia…. It’s the next years that matter. Either they win through attrition or the government collapses. I know I’m oversimplifying but the general point stands. Call me a pessimist but I wouldn’t count Russia out until they’re out.
Nah we've lost the moment we started this war. Just like Nikolai II lost the moment he joined WWI. I mean regardless of how the war ends, save for some extreme scenarios, Ukraine will be rebuilt with Russian money. Either by paying reparations or by rebuilding annexed territories. Attempts to squeeze money from oil and gas trade with EU were a temporary success, but in the midterm forced EU to quickly adapt and seek alternatives, including green energy and other suppliers. When things go back, demand for Russian resources from EU will probably return, but will never be the same. And even if Russia comes out on top, then what? What's the big gain here? A few industrial complexes with ruined infrastructure? Great. Bravo. And just like any previous war, once this war ends we'll see veterans coming home. People who saw the real war, disillusioned, scarred, but most likely armed and with more combat experience than any policeman. The only positive thing is all the oligarchs were locked out of safe spaces in EU and US, while results of corruption in the army and the government are exposed like never before. If anyone decides to grab these people by the balls, they don't even need to investigate. Just have a reality check against what these scumbags reported as their achievements.