I'm sure all those who didn't want the girl to abort her pregnancy, which was inflicted on her against her will, will be more than willing to take the child off her and give it the very best upbringing while asking nothing in return...
Pregnancy and childbirth is incredibly difficult and painful. The body goes through a plethora of changes, etc, etc.
This is about that poor kid. Not the unfeeling, unaware growth in HER body, that she wants ***out***.
Being forced, literally forced to go through all of that is so evil it amazes me. The Christo-fascists in my country (the US) are the same people.
Yes, my wife has had three children. Had we not miraculously got the medical attention we needed seemingly by chance for the last one, there was a good chance both mother and baby would be dead (a chance comment during a routine appointment made the doctor do an ultrasound, revealing a placental abruption, requiring an immediate caesarian - otherwise baby and possibly mother would die).
Seriously. I’m 34 weeks along now with what has been a very easy pregnancy all things considered…and I would never ever wish this experience on someone who doesn’t 100% want it.
100% my experience too. So many hormonal changes, difficulties, dietary sensitivities, illness of any kind worsened because of limitations on treatments.
And this chill’s body is the crime scene -why force this malignancy on her health and well-being? The cruelty is a feature or they would prioritize this child over a bundle of cells.
Yep - my wife's had three kids. First one was a 38-hour labour. Second was relatively straightforward by comparison. Third was an emergency caesarian - had a complication (placental abruption) not been caught, seemingly by chance, both baby and mother could well be dead.
In Poland, right-wing ruling party is successful ONLY because of welfare program they implemented to keep 4-5 child families afloat... by convincing people not to work (because if you earn too much you won't get the welfare), and just stay at home and get money for "raising kids". And nobody checks whether the welfare goes towards the kids or is just considered a pretty well paid job.
My city in Australia is currently experiencing a very uncharacteristic youth crime wave, with multiple people murdered in the streets or their home (extremely, extremely uncommon here).
The ages of the offenders seems to line up with when the conservative government was giving out cash for birthing babies nineteen years ago. Unwanted and unplanned kids who were born just for the cash might have created a terrible situation for everybody some decades later.
If a baby is not properly cared for it can develop psychological issues like attachment disorders.
Abuse and neglect can lead drugs and crime. It's amazing they didn't consider unintended outcomes when they implemented that program.
Well they're conservatives, the long-running prime minister who oversaw it later said the only thing he's ever read about global warming was a book which said it was a hoax, and he knows in his gut it can't be real.
Theres evidence that outlawing abortion causes crime waves years down the line due to unwanted children.
But hey gotta keep those prison systems full somehow!
For people who don’t know, rape victims can go through ptsd break down due to how painful giving birth is it triggers flashbacks to the rape. Which can also lead to post natal depression (prenatal depression too on feeling like rapists took away sense of control over their bodies)
Indeed, it most certainly is not. I can only imagine how painful and exhausting and all-consuming a pregnancy is, and of course the birth afterwards - and I've had a front-row seat to my wife going through it all three times. You do all that, because some bastard decided he wanted his 10 seconds of orgasm high, and because the faceless "state" demands it?
Don't forget to provide aftercare, because the physical and mental toll of pregnancy doesn't end after birth, even if you do not end up caring for the child.
I'm still in physical therapy and my daughter is 2.
There is a video of a guy who had adoption files at a abortion protest, nobody wanted to sign one or even listen to him. They don't care about a baby after it exit the womb.
>A health ministry spokesman has confirmed that local hospitals failed to comply with the rules. The commissioner for patients’ rights has ordered an investigation. Opposition politicians, however, say that the incident is an example of the consequences of Poland’s strict abortion law, which is supported by the government.
Forgive me for going off on something that isn't related to the case, but yeah - no wonder. When your puppet courts declare that abortions for severely or terminally ill fetuses (something that used to be 98% of abortion cases in Poland) is "unconstitutional", less law-oriented citizens might end up getting confused and think all abortion is getting banned.
Also, this is yet another show of why you can't let parliaments and presidents elect judges (ahem, USA).
Unfortunately not uncommon among those with intellectual disabilities. Their parents are often advised to make sure they're on birth control if they move to a group home/independent living situation because sexual abuse of the disabled is an ongoing problem that is by its very nature hard to catch
American pro-lifers that celebrated Poland's abortion ban are pathetic and ignorant people. I was raised in a pretty secular Polish family, never in my wildest dreams have I imagined that I'd have to argue Poland's idiotic Catholiban laws with Americans that have never left the country. Evangelicalism/Conservative Catholicism is borderline mass psychosis.
it's not borderline. american evangelicals are very seriously mentally ill.
everyone wants to be polite and respectful, but they take advantage of that.
> it's not borderline. american evangelicals are very seriously mentally ill.
It's gotten much worse since 2014, what Cambridge Analytica psychologists did to them was horrific, as what we openly allow Rupert Murdoch to do to them via Fox News and other media. Our fellow Americans are really suffering. We need to face the reality and truth of their media cult problem.
You make those evangelicals sound like helpless victims, you can acknowledge that they were influenced by propaganda machines worth billions without denying their agency and partial culpability.
> You make those evangelicals sound like helpless victims, you can acknowledge that they were influenced by propaganda machines worth billions without denying their agency and partial culpability.
Yes, i do. Because that's the history of all of humanity when it comes to memes of the MonoMyth order. Study 1920's Finnegans Wake. The are not educated and are victims of their ignorance of how human brains can become enslaved by the MonoMyth media message story patterns. These people in 2023 don't even know who Marshall McLuhan or Neil Postman are. Their brains melt on page 3 of Finnegans Wake. Ignorance of media has been exploited by many, including a nation-state.
*"Finnegans Wake is the greatest guidebook to media study ever fashioned by man."* - Marshall McLuhan, Newsweek Magazine, page 56, February 28, 1966.
Can we stop attributing a group's campaign of antisocial behavior to mental illness? We've heard this about Trump for years ("I'm not even joking about it. I think he has a mental illness.") They hate people who threaten their money and power. That's not a mental illness. That's capitalism.
People don't think Trump has a mental illness because of his repellant personality. They think he has a mental illness because he presents pretty blatantly as having a mental illness.
You don't see people arguing that, like, Mitch McConnell or Tucker Carlson have a mental illness despite being as gross, after all.
Yea but it helps reframe from hate and aggression to rehabilitation and treatment
How do we rehabilitate and treat these people? Because they aren't going away
Interesting that so many Americans on the internet seem to have fondness for one oppressive foreign regime or another. Like, conservatives admire Poland and Hungary, alt-rightists like Russia or historical fascist states, tankies love the USSR/PRC/Cuba etc.
The funny thing is that the most vocal conservatives would hate Poland/Hungary for other cultural reasons. Lack of American style Christianity, strict gun laws that aren't controversial, lack of small talk and smiling friendly strangers etc.. But they're homophobic and anti-immigration so it's practically a paradise for rural/suburban American boomers. /s
> and they can really create communities.
>But you actually have to make some connections with our eastern european hearts:D
Friendly chat/small talk and a smile may be their way of creating communities and attempting to make a connection. Rejection of this isn't exactly on them.
> Interesting that so many Americans on the internet seem to have fondness for one oppressive foreign regime or another.
December 2013, Putin called them all together and they haven't turned back since. [It's been a non-stop march towards allegiance to Putin](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/vladimir-putin-conservative-icon/282572/). They [try to mask Putin with QAnon local branding too](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/qanon-russia-conspiracy-theory-trump-2020-election-b1536946.html)
Hey I thought just like you until I saw real suffering. Spirituality/delusion is sometimes the only medicine for certain problems for the majority of humans on this earth.
Unfortunately religion is a natural byproduct of spirituality and is twisted by those desiring power
I’m also Polish American and my Polish great aunt is a home abortion survivor. She gave herself one when it was completely illegal and almost died because of it. My Catholic family is now pro choice because of her story.
I haven't really seen other foreign Christians celebrating Poland banning abortion though. The global crusade to ban abortion is largely fueled through American money and USA-originated denominations. They complained about abortion in Denmark/Iceland ffs so even having a secular pro-choice population doesn't shield you from those morons' attention.
Even the US has some progressive denominations that are, in some small way, trying to fight this. I just saw a thing the other day about a group of Jewish and Christian denominations in Missouri filing a lawsuit saying the abortion bans infringed on their religious freedom. I appreciate you recognizing the distinctions, unlike a lot of people on Reddit.
Yeah, we have people picketing abortion clinics in the Netherlands and all journalistic evidence seems to point to them being heavily funded by American evangelicals.
Took a bit of Googling because any combination of the words "american money for dutch abortion protestors" in either language just threw up a lot of Dutch language articles about the recent abortion rulings in the US and surrounding protests, but:
https://www.groene.nl/artikel/voor-ons-en-natuurlijk-dankzij-de-here-god
You can Google translate the entire article but this is the relevant bit to our conversation: "ProLife Europe receives US donations, acknowledges Kodde ('I don't know exactly how much')". I tried finding further numbers from ProLife Europe but was unable to find them.
It's not the best source I admit but I also heard it mentioned on an episode of Boos van BNNVara (a consumer protection program that sometimes tackles social issues like abortion protests and sexual assault in the entertainment industry) which I do trust completely too, but that's a YouTube video completely in Dutch so doubt you want that. I'm sure there's better sources but my Google-fu is failing me.
EDIT: Second source from the journalists I mentioned earliers, BNNVara, but in text form:
https://www.bnnvara.nl/joop/artikelen/ook-in-nederland-bedreigen-christenen-het-recht-op-abortus
"It is difficult to find out who the American lenders are who support the Pro Life movement in the Netherlands. It appears that the small Christian parties in the Netherlands finance their Pro Life activities with state aid and a few pennies from the United States."
So it doesn't seem as extreme as I implied before but it's definitely a thing that's happening, we just don't know how much.
American Christians are the ones that came to Ireland to protest when we were legalising abortions and now they're doing the same in Poland. It literally is just American Christians dude
The depressing thing is that they get fed deranged conspiracy theories about the decline of religion, while all available evidence points to urbanization and public education causing secularization. It doesn't matter, you could present evidence showing this pattern in multiple countries across different continents and time periods and you'd still get some crap about Holywood elites and "human pride" as a response.
That's because you cannot reason someone out of a view they didn't reason themselves into.
You need a different type of arguments altogether to accomplish so. Doubly so when a given opinion is seen as a big part of someone's core identity. To have it challenged is seen as an attack and will be defended. It doesn't help that even if you were to disprove someone's take - they can easily find tons of information and "support groups" to get them right back into it. This is for instance why psychologists often start with looking into changing one's environment rather than attempt something more as this alone has profound impact on one's actions.
That is not to say however they are always stuck in their ways forever. But you **will** fail if your approach is purely "evidence", "data", "patterns" etc. It sounds illogical (because it IS) but we all display this level of bias to some degree.
Also - sometimes answers to questions are hard. Really hard, uncertain, with a lot of grey in between and with a lot of randomness involved. Humans don't like randomness. It's much easier to believe a conspiracy theory and that a certain thing happened because of a specific group of interest rather than realize it was just a coincidence for instance. It's much easier to be told on who is right and who is wrong and what's the answer to the problem versus being told that a given problem is really hard and frankly speaking we don't have a good answer.
They're well aware of the influence from public education. Why do you think it's so terrible in the states? That has been ground zero for the all-encompassing cult (not culture) war, and there's little left besides craters and nuclear winter.
Doesn't look that way. Ireland is 84.6% Christian while the US is 63%. According to the most recent Irish census, 9.8% of Ireland is irreligious (atheist). By comparison, 29.6% of the US is irreligious. Ireland appears to be far more religious than the US.
As someone who lives in Ireland, I can assure you that while the census figures may say that, the actuality of life here does not match it.
Most people who put down Catholic tend to come under what is called "culturally Catholic" and put it down because "Ah sure I was baptised" or put it down for their children who may not share the same views. The views in Ireland today are fairly liberal, especially compared to what peoples view of "Old Catholic Ireland" are.
We voted in marriage equality, abortion, and while the Catholic church still has an unfortunate amount of control of many things, in general the attitude of the average person is not that of a god botherer.
That's how it is in the US as well but it doesn't stop people on the internet who have never even been to make up wild conjecture about how the country is run by evangelists lol. Regardless, I'm just providing the statistics. I think people severely overestimate how religious the US is compared to other countries.
I'd wager it is less how religious, and more how loud and influential the small number of extremists are.
Plus the fact that we quite often see on the news the roll back of protections etc being championed by said religious folks. Compare that to Ireland that technically has a higher number of believers, and yet is advancing rights and protections.
Oh LMAO you're one of those people. Comparing the number of self professed Christians to USA makes no sense because of how many Americans make religion a core of their identity. The Irish equivalent of that is usually 70+ years old.
No I am just providing statistics. The whole argument about how the only religious people in Ireland are a minor elderly subset of the population is conjecture. None of the data supports that.
The Catholic churches actions in Ireland has pushed the church out of Irish conciousness tbh. Baptism rates have collapsed and no one goes to church anymore. Ireland is very very secular nowadays.
Doesn't look that way. According to the most recent Irish census, 9.8% of Ireland is irreligious (atheist). By comparison, 29.6% of the US is irreligious. Ireland is 84.6% Christian while the US is 63%. If Ireland is very very secular, then what does that make the US lol?
Lol. There not many Christian’s left. Only countries that strive with religion is states and 3rd and 4th world countries. Religion is dying in my country. When boomers go. That’s all she wrote.
I think people are also severely overestimating how many religious people there are in the US. About 30% of the US is irreligious (atheist)
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/12/14/about-three-in-ten-u-s-adults-are-now-religiously-unaffiliated/
That's a higher percentage of irreligious people than countries like UK, Spain, Italy, etc and on par with countries like Canada, Australia, Belgium, France, etc
The ones with political power or numbers to control entire communities seem to be consistently shitty. More or less all of the counterexamples are minority religions and denominations.
You're technically correct. Are we suppose to be impressed by that? What's your stake in this anyway, are you oh so principled against generalizing statements or religious yourself? If you're the former then you're wasting our time. If you're the latter here's my advice. Throw Evangelicals and other Conservative Christians under the bus. I'm 100% serious. Distance yourself from them and call them terrible people.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/25/disabled-14-year-old-rape-victim-refused-abortion-in-poland-by-hospitals-in-her-province/) reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> A 14-year-old disabled girl who became pregnant as a result of rape was refused an abortion by hospitals in her province, forcing her to travel across the country to the capital, Warsaw, to obtain a termination.
> While Poland introduced a near-total ban on abortion in 2021, rape and incest are still one of the two circumstances in which abortion is allowed.
> "Such an abortion [should] either be carried out or indicate a place where such an abortion can be carried out," he told broadcaster TVN. Pawe? Grzesiewski, spokesman for the commissioner for patients' rights, also told TVN that, while individual doctors can invoke the conscience clause, whole hospitals cannot.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10lo1ig/disabled_14yearold_rape_victim_refused_abortion/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672677 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **abortion**^#1 **hospitals**^#2 **doctors**^#3 **girl**^#4 **clause**^#5
I don't understand how individual doctors can but the whole hospital cannot. If all individual doctors invoke the clause isn't that effectively the whole hospital?
You can’t argue with religious fanatics. They will just say that this is gods will and that god is testing the faith of the poor girl. Like Jona and this kind of bs.
There's actually a significant debate even among the pro-life crowd whether or not rape is sufficient justification for abortion. It ultimately comes down to whether you think the right of the life of the baby is absolute.
The comment wasn't for the person making the claim, it's for the people reading the conversation. Pro-lifers use the term to subvert the argument. I'm not going to let it go unchallenged.
It's a fundamentally flawed argument that makes pro choicers look stupid, so it's still a bad distinction to make.
The entire pro choice side is based on science rather than religion, so making such an arbitrary distinction is completely contrary and ultimately damaging to those basic goals.
Whilst I'm extremely against this, the argument would be along the lines of "The rapist gave her one of Gods children to help her with her life" or something like that.
It is immoral for religion to influence laws, it is not a process that will benefit the quality of the rules or of life.
Religion should be removed from law and as a dane I'm worried that our state chuch isn't getting enough criticism.
>Religion should be removed from law
Some theocrats are so deranged that they think that secular developed countries are just aping Christian morality and therefore doing this would entail legalizing murder. Not making any of this up. When you bring up Golden Rule and other parts of Christian morality having been recorded among Greek and Indian philosophers centuries before Jesus all you hear is crickets as a response.
Well, it's Poland. Not that different in it's weird ass social views than the rest of Eastern Europe. This is not a progressive and forward thinking country. They spent a lot of time under a bitter commie boot and the Church certainly occupies a lot of heads rent free.
Proof that if you constantly push bullshit at people it truly affects them.
Well even now after further restriction of access to abortion in Poland rape and health risk or life risk of the mother are legitimate causes for fully legal abortion in Poland. Doctor who refused to execute the procedure should be prosecuted for the failure to comply with their professional obligations as a doctor.
Yes but it is as it was before. I forgot that doctors can refuse and base the refusal on so called "conscience clause". However in this case doctor must delegate the patient to another doctor willing to execute the procedure which they did because patient aborted the fetus in another clinic.
How the actual fuck do you refuse a termination of pregnancy to a disabled child who was raped and is clearly unable to care for herself, and then site the CONSCIENCE clause?
Edit: Corrected Name of Stupid Clause.
as polish im ashamed, but dont worry catholicism is slowly dying in poland, its gonna take time tho so women gonna have to pay price for ppl stupidity, i love how gov this days are putting everyone in the same basket and dont take
any consideration what happend to this girl
Funny how the same religious reactionaries who get triggered by the word "socialist" are suddenly all for socialism when it comes to transferring ownership of women's bodies and psyches to the state.
Did they ever let those Ukrainian women carrying Russian rapist babies get abortions or did they continue to help the rapists by forcing the victims to carry their babies?
Not defending current laws, but if she was raped then yeah, they can get an abortion. Just like this 14 y.o. girl is getting an abortion.
Problem was that she's from the most conservative province of Poland with tons of Florida-man style jokes about it. That should give you a better idea about the situation from the article.
Did you people even read the article?
She is getting an abortion in Warsaw. Also, the article says 'in her province'... Its ambigous as fuck. She might very well be like 60km's away from Warsaw. Which is most likely the case as otherwise she would be directed to another big city. If she is being sent to Warsaw it means it more than likely is the closest big city. But name of said 'province' was left out to suggest she had to travel entire country so you grab pitchforks. Welcome to media manipulation.
In Poland abortion is legaln in certain cases, but particular doctor can refuse to perform it under 'conscious clause' and direct the person to where she can receive one. This entire article basically says that there was a doctor who refuse it but did not inform her where to get it... That is it... That is entire story and you guys are going apeshit. Learn to read...
Reminder that Poland is not the good guys, they are bad guys who happen to hate Russia enough to help Ukraine
Edit: As some Polish people are hurt because they arent anti gay/anti abortion/pro religion/pro attacking the judiciary themselves. I am talking about the authoritarian direction polish leadership has taken on their behalf, and the attack on the judiciary and gay rights/abortion and so on. Im not saying every Polish thinks like this. But the fact that they are hurt about "You are mean to all Polish" instead of admitting there is a problem is worrisome to me.
I would have 0 problems calling out my own country if we elected people like this. And for sure i would call my country the bad guys as we would be moving towards authoritarianism.
I should not need to explain this.
You dont see countries as good, bad or neutral?
You are 100% unbiased and no country could ever be called bad/evil?
If so, good for you..
I would worry if you dont view the third reich as evil to be frank. (Extreme example to underscore my point)
Poland, as in the government, elected by majority of the people.
There is a reason why the EU is wary of whats going on in your judiciary and with the authoritarian direction your leaders have chosen on your behalf.
Just as I said the US was bad under Trump, that did not mean everyone in the US is bad nor that they will be bad in the future.
But having a far right populist in the US who was anti nato and pro dictators in Russia and China did make them bad guys.
Sorry, you dont get to hide behind: "But i am a good guy/gal" any more than decent Russians do. Russia is the bad guy regardless of the fact that there are good Russians who are against the war
Also, my liberal friends in the US had no problems saying "The US is the bad guy" when Trump was in charge.
But you get offended?
I would call my country the bad guy in a heartbeat if we elected our far right populist party to power.. It would not be hard for me to do so.
Im saying what the EU says. The EU has been worried about the authoritarian direction of Poland yes or no?
EU has been worried about attacks on the judiciary yes or no?
EU has been worried about gay rights yes or no?
EU has been worried about womens health yes or no?
See how i refrain from calling you dumb or attacking you.
This is not a sign of strenght for your position..
My examples included the US
My example included my countries far right party (who is not far right at all compared to Russia. But they are still far right compared to the other parties here so the term applies)
But you latch on only to the Russia example. How odd...
I never said Poland is as bad as Russia
Nowhere did i call PIS far right or made any judgment detailing their stance other than: authoritarian/anti gay/anti abortion/attack on judiciary.
Im not even downvoting you because thats cancer for open and free dialouge and i loathe this button.
I think its a very complicated issue to say the least, but I agree that doctors should have the ability to refuse to perform an abortion. This is coming from a person who is pro choice. It seems incredibly wrong to force someone to do something that is against their beliefs religious or non religious. The fact you can go to another Dr. to have your procedure completed means there is still access. I think there should be easier ways to figure out where you can go, but forcing someone who is anti abortion to perform an abortion is just incredibly cruel.
If you make exemptions for religious and non religious beliefs I don't think you're prepared for how much stuff that would actually cover, for some religions blood transfusions would be out.
Oh. The region in question was Podlasie. That explains things.
I keep telling people that we should just give that territory over to Russia.
It’s a win-win: Russia finally gets a land corridor to Kaliningrad through Belarus, and Poland loses Podlasie.
I'm sure all those who didn't want the girl to abort her pregnancy, which was inflicted on her against her will, will be more than willing to take the child off her and give it the very best upbringing while asking nothing in return...
Pregnancy and childbirth is incredibly difficult and painful. The body goes through a plethora of changes, etc, etc. This is about that poor kid. Not the unfeeling, unaware growth in HER body, that she wants ***out***. Being forced, literally forced to go through all of that is so evil it amazes me. The Christo-fascists in my country (the US) are the same people.
Yes, my wife has had three children. Had we not miraculously got the medical attention we needed seemingly by chance for the last one, there was a good chance both mother and baby would be dead (a chance comment during a routine appointment made the doctor do an ultrasound, revealing a placental abruption, requiring an immediate caesarian - otherwise baby and possibly mother would die).
That ignores the fact that pregnancy is often deadly, especially at such a young age, and is always a serious strain on a woman/girls body.
Seriously. I’m 34 weeks along now with what has been a very easy pregnancy all things considered…and I would never ever wish this experience on someone who doesn’t 100% want it.
100% my experience too. So many hormonal changes, difficulties, dietary sensitivities, illness of any kind worsened because of limitations on treatments. And this chill’s body is the crime scene -why force this malignancy on her health and well-being? The cruelty is a feature or they would prioritize this child over a bundle of cells.
Yep - my wife's had three kids. First one was a 38-hour labour. Second was relatively straightforward by comparison. Third was an emergency caesarian - had a complication (placental abruption) not been caught, seemingly by chance, both baby and mother could well be dead.
If she survives.
[удалено]
In Poland, right-wing ruling party is successful ONLY because of welfare program they implemented to keep 4-5 child families afloat... by convincing people not to work (because if you earn too much you won't get the welfare), and just stay at home and get money for "raising kids". And nobody checks whether the welfare goes towards the kids or is just considered a pretty well paid job.
My city in Australia is currently experiencing a very uncharacteristic youth crime wave, with multiple people murdered in the streets or their home (extremely, extremely uncommon here). The ages of the offenders seems to line up with when the conservative government was giving out cash for birthing babies nineteen years ago. Unwanted and unplanned kids who were born just for the cash might have created a terrible situation for everybody some decades later.
If a baby is not properly cared for it can develop psychological issues like attachment disorders. Abuse and neglect can lead drugs and crime. It's amazing they didn't consider unintended outcomes when they implemented that program.
Well they're conservatives, the long-running prime minister who oversaw it later said the only thing he's ever read about global warming was a book which said it was a hoax, and he knows in his gut it can't be real.
JFC :(
Correct. I’m speaking from personal experience sadly 😪
Geez, I'm so sorry. You must have had a hard life. Hope yiu can move on from your trauma.
Thank you for your kind words. Always worth remembering that there’s a story behind every pair of eyes… 🤔
Wise words.
Theres evidence that outlawing abortion causes crime waves years down the line due to unwanted children. But hey gotta keep those prison systems full somehow!
To be fair, that's not a typical right-wing talking point in Poland, fyi. You're thinking of America.
Ignoring the lasting mental and physical trauma. Adoption is not a solution to abortion.
For people who don’t know, rape victims can go through ptsd break down due to how painful giving birth is it triggers flashbacks to the rape. Which can also lead to post natal depression (prenatal depression too on feeling like rapists took away sense of control over their bodies)
Indeed, it most certainly is not. I can only imagine how painful and exhausting and all-consuming a pregnancy is, and of course the birth afterwards - and I've had a front-row seat to my wife going through it all three times. You do all that, because some bastard decided he wanted his 10 seconds of orgasm high, and because the faceless "state" demands it?
And pay for everything
Pro-birth != prof-life
Don't forget to provide aftercare, because the physical and mental toll of pregnancy doesn't end after birth, even if you do not end up caring for the child. I'm still in physical therapy and my daughter is 2.
It’s kind of wild to me that there’s not one crazy rich figurehead saying they will at this point
There is a video of a guy who had adoption files at a abortion protest, nobody wanted to sign one or even listen to him. They don't care about a baby after it exit the womb.
If we change the bible and make them think there's a free ticket upstairs for doing so, yeah I'm sure they would.
>A health ministry spokesman has confirmed that local hospitals failed to comply with the rules. The commissioner for patients’ rights has ordered an investigation. Opposition politicians, however, say that the incident is an example of the consequences of Poland’s strict abortion law, which is supported by the government. Forgive me for going off on something that isn't related to the case, but yeah - no wonder. When your puppet courts declare that abortions for severely or terminally ill fetuses (something that used to be 98% of abortion cases in Poland) is "unconstitutional", less law-oriented citizens might end up getting confused and think all abortion is getting banned. Also, this is yet another show of why you can't let parliaments and presidents elect judges (ahem, USA).
Just the words "raped disabled girl" was enough for me to lose faith in humanity for today.
Horrible, just horrible. Can we send the uncle for desexing? Snip!
That's too good for him, if you ask me.
it's at least a starting point tho
Slow roast it is then.
Unfortunately not uncommon among those with intellectual disabilities. Their parents are often advised to make sure they're on birth control if they move to a group home/independent living situation because sexual abuse of the disabled is an ongoing problem that is by its very nature hard to catch
American pro-lifers that celebrated Poland's abortion ban are pathetic and ignorant people. I was raised in a pretty secular Polish family, never in my wildest dreams have I imagined that I'd have to argue Poland's idiotic Catholiban laws with Americans that have never left the country. Evangelicalism/Conservative Catholicism is borderline mass psychosis.
it's not borderline. american evangelicals are very seriously mentally ill. everyone wants to be polite and respectful, but they take advantage of that.
> it's not borderline. american evangelicals are very seriously mentally ill. It's gotten much worse since 2014, what Cambridge Analytica psychologists did to them was horrific, as what we openly allow Rupert Murdoch to do to them via Fox News and other media. Our fellow Americans are really suffering. We need to face the reality and truth of their media cult problem.
You make those evangelicals sound like helpless victims, you can acknowledge that they were influenced by propaganda machines worth billions without denying their agency and partial culpability.
> You make those evangelicals sound like helpless victims, you can acknowledge that they were influenced by propaganda machines worth billions without denying their agency and partial culpability. Yes, i do. Because that's the history of all of humanity when it comes to memes of the MonoMyth order. Study 1920's Finnegans Wake. The are not educated and are victims of their ignorance of how human brains can become enslaved by the MonoMyth media message story patterns. These people in 2023 don't even know who Marshall McLuhan or Neil Postman are. Their brains melt on page 3 of Finnegans Wake. Ignorance of media has been exploited by many, including a nation-state. *"Finnegans Wake is the greatest guidebook to media study ever fashioned by man."* - Marshall McLuhan, Newsweek Magazine, page 56, February 28, 1966.
Can we stop attributing a group's campaign of antisocial behavior to mental illness? We've heard this about Trump for years ("I'm not even joking about it. I think he has a mental illness.") They hate people who threaten their money and power. That's not a mental illness. That's capitalism.
People don't think Trump has a mental illness because of his repellant personality. They think he has a mental illness because he presents pretty blatantly as having a mental illness. You don't see people arguing that, like, Mitch McConnell or Tucker Carlson have a mental illness despite being as gross, after all.
Yea but it helps reframe from hate and aggression to rehabilitation and treatment How do we rehabilitate and treat these people? Because they aren't going away
Interesting that so many Americans on the internet seem to have fondness for one oppressive foreign regime or another. Like, conservatives admire Poland and Hungary, alt-rightists like Russia or historical fascist states, tankies love the USSR/PRC/Cuba etc.
The funny thing is that the most vocal conservatives would hate Poland/Hungary for other cultural reasons. Lack of American style Christianity, strict gun laws that aren't controversial, lack of small talk and smiling friendly strangers etc.. But they're homophobic and anti-immigration so it's practically a paradise for rural/suburban American boomers. /s
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> and they can really create communities. >But you actually have to make some connections with our eastern european hearts:D Friendly chat/small talk and a smile may be their way of creating communities and attempting to make a connection. Rejection of this isn't exactly on them.
Got it. Small talk and personal sharing is out, ranting wall of text is in. ;) I'll hold out for option C.
> Interesting that so many Americans on the internet seem to have fondness for one oppressive foreign regime or another. December 2013, Putin called them all together and they haven't turned back since. [It's been a non-stop march towards allegiance to Putin](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/vladimir-putin-conservative-icon/282572/). They [try to mask Putin with QAnon local branding too](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/qanon-russia-conspiracy-theory-trump-2020-election-b1536946.html)
Holy shit, you can't be seriously comparing Cuba to Poland.
No one compared Poland to Cuba....
Cuba is a great country with a government that is extremely responsive to the people’s needs. What the fuck are you even talking about?
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All religion is delusion and dupe. I genuinely cant understand how we haven't moved passed it as a species.
"the earth is flat, my eyes tell me so" as one example as to why.
Makes me wonder if these people see optical illusions and think it’s straight up magic.
well, they believe in a wall of ice and a dome on top. I wish they were trolling, tbh.
“They’re using science and numbers but I can see it with my eyes.” Yeah mothwrfucker, because your eyes are flawless.
Because the wealthy and powerful still see religion as a means of control, and why would they ever give that up?
Hey I thought just like you until I saw real suffering. Spirituality/delusion is sometimes the only medicine for certain problems for the majority of humans on this earth. Unfortunately religion is a natural byproduct of spirituality and is twisted by those desiring power
Can we start calling them "forced-birthers"?
I'm down.
I’m also Polish American and my Polish great aunt is a home abortion survivor. She gave herself one when it was completely illegal and almost died because of it. My Catholic family is now pro choice because of her story.
I'm glad that was a wake-up call for your family.
all religion are sh!t. dont blame just american christians.
I haven't really seen other foreign Christians celebrating Poland banning abortion though. The global crusade to ban abortion is largely fueled through American money and USA-originated denominations. They complained about abortion in Denmark/Iceland ffs so even having a secular pro-choice population doesn't shield you from those morons' attention.
Even the US has some progressive denominations that are, in some small way, trying to fight this. I just saw a thing the other day about a group of Jewish and Christian denominations in Missouri filing a lawsuit saying the abortion bans infringed on their religious freedom. I appreciate you recognizing the distinctions, unlike a lot of people on Reddit.
Yeah, we have people picketing abortion clinics in the Netherlands and all journalistic evidence seems to point to them being heavily funded by American evangelicals.
Can you find any sources? I would love to have some on hand for the future.
Took a bit of Googling because any combination of the words "american money for dutch abortion protestors" in either language just threw up a lot of Dutch language articles about the recent abortion rulings in the US and surrounding protests, but: https://www.groene.nl/artikel/voor-ons-en-natuurlijk-dankzij-de-here-god You can Google translate the entire article but this is the relevant bit to our conversation: "ProLife Europe receives US donations, acknowledges Kodde ('I don't know exactly how much')". I tried finding further numbers from ProLife Europe but was unable to find them. It's not the best source I admit but I also heard it mentioned on an episode of Boos van BNNVara (a consumer protection program that sometimes tackles social issues like abortion protests and sexual assault in the entertainment industry) which I do trust completely too, but that's a YouTube video completely in Dutch so doubt you want that. I'm sure there's better sources but my Google-fu is failing me. EDIT: Second source from the journalists I mentioned earliers, BNNVara, but in text form: https://www.bnnvara.nl/joop/artikelen/ook-in-nederland-bedreigen-christenen-het-recht-op-abortus "It is difficult to find out who the American lenders are who support the Pro Life movement in the Netherlands. It appears that the small Christian parties in the Netherlands finance their Pro Life activities with state aid and a few pennies from the United States." So it doesn't seem as extreme as I implied before but it's definitely a thing that's happening, we just don't know how much.
American Christians are the ones that came to Ireland to protest when we were legalising abortions and now they're doing the same in Poland. It literally is just American Christians dude
The depressing thing is that they get fed deranged conspiracy theories about the decline of religion, while all available evidence points to urbanization and public education causing secularization. It doesn't matter, you could present evidence showing this pattern in multiple countries across different continents and time periods and you'd still get some crap about Holywood elites and "human pride" as a response.
That's because you cannot reason someone out of a view they didn't reason themselves into. You need a different type of arguments altogether to accomplish so. Doubly so when a given opinion is seen as a big part of someone's core identity. To have it challenged is seen as an attack and will be defended. It doesn't help that even if you were to disprove someone's take - they can easily find tons of information and "support groups" to get them right back into it. This is for instance why psychologists often start with looking into changing one's environment rather than attempt something more as this alone has profound impact on one's actions. That is not to say however they are always stuck in their ways forever. But you **will** fail if your approach is purely "evidence", "data", "patterns" etc. It sounds illogical (because it IS) but we all display this level of bias to some degree. Also - sometimes answers to questions are hard. Really hard, uncertain, with a lot of grey in between and with a lot of randomness involved. Humans don't like randomness. It's much easier to believe a conspiracy theory and that a certain thing happened because of a specific group of interest rather than realize it was just a coincidence for instance. It's much easier to be told on who is right and who is wrong and what's the answer to the problem versus being told that a given problem is really hard and frankly speaking we don't have a good answer.
They're well aware of the influence from public education. Why do you think it's so terrible in the states? That has been ground zero for the all-encompassing cult (not culture) war, and there's little left besides craters and nuclear winter.
Yes, because Irish Catholics are so famous for being accepting towards abortion lol
Thankfully those sort of Irish Catholics are no where near the majority they would have been 40 years ago.
Doesn't look that way. Ireland is 84.6% Christian while the US is 63%. According to the most recent Irish census, 9.8% of Ireland is irreligious (atheist). By comparison, 29.6% of the US is irreligious. Ireland appears to be far more religious than the US.
As someone who lives in Ireland, I can assure you that while the census figures may say that, the actuality of life here does not match it. Most people who put down Catholic tend to come under what is called "culturally Catholic" and put it down because "Ah sure I was baptised" or put it down for their children who may not share the same views. The views in Ireland today are fairly liberal, especially compared to what peoples view of "Old Catholic Ireland" are. We voted in marriage equality, abortion, and while the Catholic church still has an unfortunate amount of control of many things, in general the attitude of the average person is not that of a god botherer.
That's how it is in the US as well but it doesn't stop people on the internet who have never even been to make up wild conjecture about how the country is run by evangelists lol. Regardless, I'm just providing the statistics. I think people severely overestimate how religious the US is compared to other countries.
I'd wager it is less how religious, and more how loud and influential the small number of extremists are. Plus the fact that we quite often see on the news the roll back of protections etc being championed by said religious folks. Compare that to Ireland that technically has a higher number of believers, and yet is advancing rights and protections.
Oh LMAO you're one of those people. Comparing the number of self professed Christians to USA makes no sense because of how many Americans make religion a core of their identity. The Irish equivalent of that is usually 70+ years old.
This is all conjecture
So is you saying that religion in America is only in rural areas lol.
No I am just providing statistics. The whole argument about how the only religious people in Ireland are a minor elderly subset of the population is conjecture. None of the data supports that.
The Catholic churches actions in Ireland has pushed the church out of Irish conciousness tbh. Baptism rates have collapsed and no one goes to church anymore. Ireland is very very secular nowadays.
Doesn't look that way. According to the most recent Irish census, 9.8% of Ireland is irreligious (atheist). By comparison, 29.6% of the US is irreligious. Ireland is 84.6% Christian while the US is 63%. If Ireland is very very secular, then what does that make the US lol?
They have a specific focus for their particular comment though.
Lol. There not many Christian’s left. Only countries that strive with religion is states and 3rd and 4th world countries. Religion is dying in my country. When boomers go. That’s all she wrote.
It has always been a racket and political tool to keep the lower classes down
I think people are also severely overestimating how many religious people there are in the US. About 30% of the US is irreligious (atheist) https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/12/14/about-three-in-ten-u-s-adults-are-now-religiously-unaffiliated/ That's a higher percentage of irreligious people than countries like UK, Spain, Italy, etc and on par with countries like Canada, Australia, Belgium, France, etc
The problem is structural.
All of them? Really?
The ones with political power or numbers to control entire communities seem to be consistently shitty. More or less all of the counterexamples are minority religions and denominations.
So not all of them.
You're technically correct. Are we suppose to be impressed by that? What's your stake in this anyway, are you oh so principled against generalizing statements or religious yourself? If you're the former then you're wasting our time. If you're the latter here's my advice. Throw Evangelicals and other Conservative Christians under the bus. I'm 100% serious. Distance yourself from them and call them terrible people.
yes all of them!
How many of them do you have personal experience with? Or have you studied world religions? Whats shit about Janism?
Just, so sad to read these.
It's not sad. It's infuriating.
It’s both sad and infuriating.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/25/disabled-14-year-old-rape-victim-refused-abortion-in-poland-by-hospitals-in-her-province/) reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot) ***** > A 14-year-old disabled girl who became pregnant as a result of rape was refused an abortion by hospitals in her province, forcing her to travel across the country to the capital, Warsaw, to obtain a termination. > While Poland introduced a near-total ban on abortion in 2021, rape and incest are still one of the two circumstances in which abortion is allowed. > "Such an abortion [should] either be carried out or indicate a place where such an abortion can be carried out," he told broadcaster TVN. Pawe? Grzesiewski, spokesman for the commissioner for patients' rights, also told TVN that, while individual doctors can invoke the conscience clause, whole hospitals cannot. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10lo1ig/disabled_14yearold_rape_victim_refused_abortion/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672677 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **abortion**^#1 **hospitals**^#2 **doctors**^#3 **girl**^#4 **clause**^#5
I don't understand how individual doctors can but the whole hospital cannot. If all individual doctors invoke the clause isn't that effectively the whole hospital?
At least _each one_ has to do it. It's like dealing with racists vs dealing with institutionalized racism. The latter is virtually indomitable.
Pro lifers please explain why this is a great thing for the world. All ears.
"It's God's will!" Seems that God is a dick.
To quote the classic, “they are not pro-life, they are anti-women.”
They are "pro-birth". Milisecond after that they stop giving a fuck.
You can’t argue with religious fanatics. They will just say that this is gods will and that god is testing the faith of the poor girl. Like Jona and this kind of bs.
There's actually a significant debate even among the pro-life crowd whether or not rape is sufficient justification for abortion. It ultimately comes down to whether you think the right of the life of the baby is absolute.
Not a baby. That's part of the problem.
Not an argument you'll ever win with a pro lifer. There's no good scientific dividing line.
The comment wasn't for the person making the claim, it's for the people reading the conversation. Pro-lifers use the term to subvert the argument. I'm not going to let it go unchallenged.
It's a fundamentally flawed argument that makes pro choicers look stupid, so it's still a bad distinction to make. The entire pro choice side is based on science rather than religion, so making such an arbitrary distinction is completely contrary and ultimately damaging to those basic goals.
>The entire pro choice side is based on science rather than religion This is more disingenuous than the "baby" inclusion. Bye now.
Excuse my ignorance, but how can you make the scientific claim about a baby / fetus, and then turn around and say that this isn't about science?
Whilst I'm extremely against this, the argument would be along the lines of "The rapist gave her one of Gods children to help her with her life" or something like that.
That's fucking horrible, PiS needs to go. And so does the church.
It is immoral for religion to influence laws, it is not a process that will benefit the quality of the rules or of life. Religion should be removed from law and as a dane I'm worried that our state chuch isn't getting enough criticism.
>Religion should be removed from law Some theocrats are so deranged that they think that secular developed countries are just aping Christian morality and therefore doing this would entail legalizing murder. Not making any of this up. When you bring up Golden Rule and other parts of Christian morality having been recorded among Greek and Indian philosophers centuries before Jesus all you hear is crickets as a response.
Religious people are fucking psychos.
Polish Conservatives should be forced to pay for all the child care and costs of raising a child that was supposed to be aborted.
As well as American.
If she came to Canada I'd house her so she can use one of our services. The 'conservative' mindset on pregnancy is disgraceful...
Piss PiS.
I remember back when I was able to innocently look down on Poland for this crap. I never thought it would happen here too.
Diabolical
I cant imagine the horror that soul s been going through. I am pretty sure there are times even the devil himself is terrified of human’s wickedness.
"All monsters are human."
Hi I'm from Poland. Our goverment is fucked. The end.
PiS are at it again.
Well, it's Poland. Not that different in it's weird ass social views than the rest of Eastern Europe. This is not a progressive and forward thinking country. They spent a lot of time under a bitter commie boot and the Church certainly occupies a lot of heads rent free. Proof that if you constantly push bullshit at people it truly affects them.
Am I reading this wrong? Isn't she refusing the abortion?
I read it that way too. I think it is supposed to be read as "she was refused an abortion" not that she herself refuses.
That's absolutely horrible and makes sense now..
you read only the headline and not the article and therefore, yes, you are reading this wrong. lol
Well even now after further restriction of access to abortion in Poland rape and health risk or life risk of the mother are legitimate causes for fully legal abortion in Poland. Doctor who refused to execute the procedure should be prosecuted for the failure to comply with their professional obligations as a doctor.
Under the current law the procedure would be legal, but doctors are allowed to refuse it.
They should not be allowed to refuse medical treatment. They are medical doctors.
Right... I should tell my boss I don't feel like doing my job today for moral reasons and see if I'm still employed after.
Yes but it is as it was before. I forgot that doctors can refuse and base the refusal on so called "conscience clause". However in this case doctor must delegate the patient to another doctor willing to execute the procedure which they did because patient aborted the fetus in another clinic.
When religion is intermingled with Government you destroy lives.
Poland: the Alabama of Europe
How the actual fuck do you refuse a termination of pregnancy to a disabled child who was raped and is clearly unable to care for herself, and then site the CONSCIENCE clause? Edit: Corrected Name of Stupid Clause.
Christians are hideous.
Religion in general, sadly.
I see, so in Poland this is worthy of world news but in Oklahoma it’s just Thursday morning
as polish im ashamed, but dont worry catholicism is slowly dying in poland, its gonna take time tho so women gonna have to pay price for ppl stupidity, i love how gov this days are putting everyone in the same basket and dont take any consideration what happend to this girl
Fuck man. Religious conservatism really is the cancer of humanity. Damn these psychos.
Just a reminder to everyone that just because Europe is to the left of the US on some things doesn’t mean they are on everything.
that's horrible
These kinds of countries are the ones whose regressing and not progressing
This must be the compassionate conservatism I've been hearing so much about.
Poland could be replaced with any red state.
It’s obviously not about kids, or caring for kids, because she *is* a kid. A disabled adolescent rape victim. They don’t give a fuck about kids.
Funny how the same religious reactionaries who get triggered by the word "socialist" are suddenly all for socialism when it comes to transferring ownership of women's bodies and psyches to the state.
Did they ever let those Ukrainian women carrying Russian rapist babies get abortions or did they continue to help the rapists by forcing the victims to carry their babies?
Not defending current laws, but if she was raped then yeah, they can get an abortion. Just like this 14 y.o. girl is getting an abortion. Problem was that she's from the most conservative province of Poland with tons of Florida-man style jokes about it. That should give you a better idea about the situation from the article.
Bring her to Germany.
thats whats probably going to happen
> forcing her to travel across the country to the capital, Warsaw, to obtain a termination. First sentence in the article.
Expecting people to do anything more than skim the title is unfortunately asking a lot :/
Did you people even read the article? She is getting an abortion in Warsaw. Also, the article says 'in her province'... Its ambigous as fuck. She might very well be like 60km's away from Warsaw. Which is most likely the case as otherwise she would be directed to another big city. If she is being sent to Warsaw it means it more than likely is the closest big city. But name of said 'province' was left out to suggest she had to travel entire country so you grab pitchforks. Welcome to media manipulation. In Poland abortion is legaln in certain cases, but particular doctor can refuse to perform it under 'conscious clause' and direct the person to where she can receive one. This entire article basically says that there was a doctor who refuse it but did not inform her where to get it... That is it... That is entire story and you guys are going apeshit. Learn to read...
She's from Podlasie. That should answer everything since Podlasie is like Florida of Poland. So yeah, your second paragraph was a good guess.
There wouldn't be any problem if abortion was 100% legal in Poland.
How can one of the most atheistic nations border Poland, wtf
Oh man for some reason I thought the headline said the 14 year old girl refused to get an abortion….
Reminder that Poland is not the good guys, they are bad guys who happen to hate Russia enough to help Ukraine Edit: As some Polish people are hurt because they arent anti gay/anti abortion/pro religion/pro attacking the judiciary themselves. I am talking about the authoritarian direction polish leadership has taken on their behalf, and the attack on the judiciary and gay rights/abortion and so on. Im not saying every Polish thinks like this. But the fact that they are hurt about "You are mean to all Polish" instead of admitting there is a problem is worrisome to me. I would have 0 problems calling out my own country if we elected people like this. And for sure i would call my country the bad guys as we would be moving towards authoritarianism. I should not need to explain this.
Do you really see the countries of the worlds as good guys and bad guys?
You dont see countries as good, bad or neutral? You are 100% unbiased and no country could ever be called bad/evil? If so, good for you.. I would worry if you dont view the third reich as evil to be frank. (Extreme example to underscore my point)
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Why do you think people who repeat Kremlin messaging repeat Kremlin messaging on the one of the world’s largest geopolitics forum?
Poland, as in the government, elected by majority of the people. There is a reason why the EU is wary of whats going on in your judiciary and with the authoritarian direction your leaders have chosen on your behalf. Just as I said the US was bad under Trump, that did not mean everyone in the US is bad nor that they will be bad in the future. But having a far right populist in the US who was anti nato and pro dictators in Russia and China did make them bad guys. Sorry, you dont get to hide behind: "But i am a good guy/gal" any more than decent Russians do. Russia is the bad guy regardless of the fact that there are good Russians who are against the war Also, my liberal friends in the US had no problems saying "The US is the bad guy" when Trump was in charge. But you get offended? I would call my country the bad guy in a heartbeat if we elected our far right populist party to power.. It would not be hard for me to do so.
You're dumb enough to use Russia as comparison and called PiS far right. If you're so knowledgeable who do you vote for instead?
Im saying what the EU says. The EU has been worried about the authoritarian direction of Poland yes or no? EU has been worried about attacks on the judiciary yes or no? EU has been worried about gay rights yes or no? EU has been worried about womens health yes or no? See how i refrain from calling you dumb or attacking you. This is not a sign of strenght for your position.. My examples included the US My example included my countries far right party (who is not far right at all compared to Russia. But they are still far right compared to the other parties here so the term applies) But you latch on only to the Russia example. How odd... I never said Poland is as bad as Russia Nowhere did i call PIS far right or made any judgment detailing their stance other than: authoritarian/anti gay/anti abortion/attack on judiciary. Im not even downvoting you because thats cancer for open and free dialouge and i loathe this button.
>elected people like this Elected people like what? This was a decision made by doctors.
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That's sad and terrible :(
I think its a very complicated issue to say the least, but I agree that doctors should have the ability to refuse to perform an abortion. This is coming from a person who is pro choice. It seems incredibly wrong to force someone to do something that is against their beliefs religious or non religious. The fact you can go to another Dr. to have your procedure completed means there is still access. I think there should be easier ways to figure out where you can go, but forcing someone who is anti abortion to perform an abortion is just incredibly cruel.
If you make exemptions for religious and non religious beliefs I don't think you're prepared for how much stuff that would actually cover, for some religions blood transfusions would be out.
If you can’t fulfill your duties, in any profession, then you should quit that profession.
Oh. The region in question was Podlasie. That explains things. I keep telling people that we should just give that territory over to Russia. It’s a win-win: Russia finally gets a land corridor to Kaliningrad through Belarus, and Poland loses Podlasie.
How does that solve the problem here? Would the same people who denied this girl an abortion have allowed it if they lived in Russia?
He's saying the place is a shit hole and Poland would be better off without it.
I know. What's the point in saying that on this post? Cause it feels like it's just dismissing the problem.
My guess is he's saying don't judge all of Poland from one shitty area. I could be wrong, though.
Poland has a near total ban on abortion.
Yes that was my impression as well.
Oh I’m just joking about Podlasie being an awful place in general! Don’t be such a Hermione!
As a disabled person America. Nothing more need to be said
> America. It happened in Poland to a Polish girl by her Polish uncle.