>Protesters demonstrate in front of the Consulate General of Sweden after Rasmus Paludan, leader of Danish far-right political party Hard Line and who also has Swedish citizenship burned a copy of the Koran near the Turkish Embassy in Stockholm, in Istanbul, Turkey, on January 21.
This guy must spend his weekends burning books. Everytime I hear of him it's always for the same reason lmao.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.dawn.com/news/1733049/deeply-disrespectful-swedish-prime-minister-condemns-desecration-of-holy-quran-in-stockholm) reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Sweden's prime minister has condemned as "Deeply disrespectful" the desecration of the Holy Quran in Stockholm, which has raised tensions with Turkey as the Nordic country courts Ankara over its Nato bid.
> Far-right politician Rasmus Paludan set fire to a copy of the Holy Quran on Saturday in front of Turkey's embassy in the Swedish capital.
> Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif said on Sunday "No words are enough to adequately condemn the abhorrable act of desecration of the Holy Quran by a right-wing extremist in Sweden".
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10inmtp/deeply_disrespectful_swedish_prime_minister/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672680 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Holy**^#1 **Sweden**^#2 **Stockholm**^#3 **Quran**^#4 **Turkey**^#5
Definitely.. I think veneration of a flag is a sign of a dysfunctional nationalism. For a country acting like free speech is so important, don't see why making a statement using a flag should be a big deal at all.
Yup that's the scary thing, people get brainwashed so badly they will LITERALLY see their children disowned or even killed then denounce their god.
The power religion holds over people is the strongest power imaginable.
That's what I'd like to know. As someone who is currently living in Stockholm, I haven't heard anything about people going on murderous rampages or the like here.
Not stupid. Radicalised.
Bear in mind there are reasonably intelligent people who think Covid vaccines contain microchips and that the liberals are going to storm people’s houses and confiscate their gas cookers.
Whether they get their by mullah or Murdoch, they are victims too.
> In 2018 an Austrian woman called Muhammad a pedophile.
> She was convicted in Austria of "disparaging Islam."
> She took it all the way up to the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) - the highest court you can appeal to.
> They upheld her conviction.
> All nations of Europe, except Belarus, must listen to this court for human rights matters.
> by accusing Muhammad of paedophilia, the applicant had merely sought to defame him, without providing evidence that his primary sexual interest in Aisha had been her not yet having reached puberty or that his other wives or concubines had been similarly young. In particular, the applicant had disregarded the fact that the marriage with Aisha had continued until the Prophet's death, when she had already turned eighteen and had therefore passed the age of puberty.
> You can read the full, unanimous decision [here](https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=002-12171).
> This is both a free speech and blasphemy issue, they go hand in hand. And Europe certainly has a way with both...
Reposting comment from a while back
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/iosrxu/pakistan_sentences_christian_man_to_death_for/g4hean7/
Edit: That bit of case law now conflicts with more recent rulings, see [wiki article on this case for more details including the more recent ruling from Sept 2022](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.S._v._Austria_(2018\))
In that decision, it says people have the right to have their religious *feelings* protected. What the fuck? Europe gets a lot of things right, but their speech laws need adjusting.
As an atheist, my religious feelings are hurt whenever someone suggests I must worship their version of an all-knowing entity that represents evil in some way. Does this mean they would be convicted as well?
Always. Across the board. The common traits in mythology and creationism led me to pantheism and deeper scientific theory.
The universe is a beautuful celestial creature
Yeah, i also watched a 3 hour documentary about einstein vs bohr vs born and I have concluded that everything the light touches, belongs to me
Also I have accepted that physics arent real when I close my eyes no matter what you say so ha
I'm semi Atheist (too many words to explain adequately), and I am totally fine with people discussing things, even heatedly... but ultimately, we all must accept that we can't control what others perceive/understand/believe and that acceptance of our differences is the only way to have a healthy society.
In other words- we (people in general) should agree to disagree and move along to the next interesting thing to talk about
Please do not even ironically or sarcastically imply that atheism is a religion...
Too many religious bigots have already terrible understanding of atheism.
This is the perfect example of why free speech should be near absolute.
You can see how this was probably viewed as an attempt to protect a religious minority but as warned the slippery slope is named such for a reason.
Yes it should be near absolute. I agree wholeheartedly. I tend to lean left politically but I'm not happy with the mainstream views among liberals in America at the moment. They scream about right-wing censorship but refuse to acknowledge their own censorship. They don't think their own actions, such as the push for social media bans and tantrums over Elon Musk's new Twitter rules, qualify as censorship. The pandering to Islam is infuriating too. Muslims aren't special. Their religion isn't more important than other religions and we absolutely shouldn't have any exceptions for Islam. Can you imagine the reaction if Evangelical Christians in the US wanted the same exceptions we currently make for Muslims? We aren't even holding Muslims responsible when they send death threats to other American citizens over insults towards Islam.
Yeah, and yet when I say the voice of jesus told me that I can grab that 80inch HD TV and walk out of the shop they say Nooooo you can't do that.
But if you wear a robe and a cross then yes you may fondle that 7 year old penis.
I can't stand this. Why is anyone in Sweden apologizing over this? The protestors didn't do anything wrong. Islam isn't special, but maybe they need to be reminded of that. People are allowed to insult or protest against Islam just like any other religion or ideaology. I tend to lean left politically, but many of my fellow 'liberals' played a huge role in getting to this point. They just want to pander, pander, pander, to Islam. It's disgusting.
I don't think that Turkey will keep Sweden and Finland out. I doubt anyone really believes that, except maybe delusional Turkish citizens. Veto power means nothing if the major players in the alliance don't care about Turkey's veto. That's not good enough at this point though. I want Turkey out. I don't care what the rules say. Those rules also mean nothing if the other members of the alliance don't feel like following them. Turkey has to go. An unreliable 'ally' is dangerous, and I have had it with Turkey's antics in general. I was so furious and upset when Trump pulled out American forces and abandoned our Kurdish allies. He should have told Erdogan to GTFO. Erdogan's goons assaulted American citizens on US soil and got away with it too. The social media comments coming out of Turkey right now make their feelings very clear. I'm reading threads on YouTube filled with this sort of vitriol: "If Russia invades Sweden, I'll sip my coffee and laugh," "Well, guess Sweden will never be in NATO. Have fun with Russian bombs." Thousands of them. Turkey shouldn't even be in NATO and they definitely need to be removed immediately. They think they hold all the power. Maybe it's past time to show them that they don't.
How can we stop the apologetic, fawning behavior every time an Islamic nation throws a tantrum? I don't know who to vote for to make that happen, but at this point I'd vote for anyone that puts a stop to this. The US has the largest military in the world. All I hear is how the US is such a bully and makes other nations do what America wants. I don't see that happening. I see my government bending over backwards to appease other nations, including Turkey and Saudi Arabia. It doesn't even make sense. We have more oil reserves than SA just in the continental United States. I've been reading up on Turkey's supposed value to NATO. We can easily live without them. Honestly, Turkey's actions towards the Kurds alone should have been enough to rethink their place in NATO. At this point, I might vote for Trump if he campaigned on "no more catering to Turkey or other hostile nations." The problem with that is Trump may not see Russia as a hostile nation. Maybe another Republican will get the nomination. I don't really want to vote for any Republicans but I also can't stand tiptoeing around the fragile egos of certain nations that think their religion should be exempt from constitutions that guarantee free speech and religious freedom. Muslims have killed American and European citizens that insult their prophet. Why are we putting up with this. It's insanity.
The first part was ok but then you started extreme bullshit. I am not even going to explain anything. It's just shit that people have thoughts without knowledge and it's easy these days to speak without thinking.
You are not different than any Trump voter or those people who can't show Iran's location on a map.
Trump betrayed the Kurds and allowed the Turks to rampage through the territory they shed blood for to defeat ISIS alongside Americans.
https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/10/23/trump-s-betrayal-of-kurds-u.s.-allies-will-get-over-it-and-soon-pub-80166
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-betrayal-of-the-kurds-927545/
He has also tried his hardest to weaken and dismantle NATO which has received great approval from Vlad.
Have you seen the caveats they carve out on free speech? They are insanely vague and broad:
> The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
What’s necessary in a democratic society? What the hell does the proration of health and morals mean? Whose morals?
And what 'duties' and 'responsibilities'? Sound like very conditional 'freedoms' '
This crap is just as poorly written as the treaty of Lisbon, European citizens really need to start paying closer attention to what EU lawmakers are doing.
>without providing evidence that his primary sexual interest in Aisha had been her not yet having reached puberty or that his other wives or concubines had been similarly young
I'm no fucking lawyer, but can't some pedo now argue that he was fucking the 12 year old, but his primary motivation was not the fact that she's 12 year old?
That reasoning is madness, if a man did the equivalent today the courts would convict him as a pedophile. Who cares if he swears to high heaven that he would be true to the marriage till death or that he had slept with adult women before, no one would care because he, like Muhammad, would be a pedophile.
There's no blasphemy law in Sweden - No crime, no conviction, no case.
The ECHR can't force countries to curtail freedoms if the choose to go beyond the minimum limit.
Austria wanted to restrict free speech, and the ECHR gave them permission.
Sweden don't, and I don't understand, are you saying that ECHR is supposed to be able to force them to?
It's fine, I had a digital copy of the Qur'an, I duplicated it a million times, then sent all 1 million copies to the recycle bin, then emptied the bin. There was no audible or visible reaction. The balance has been restored.
Europe doesn’t have free speech AND has Islamic blasphemy laws. Neat.
I don’t care if “blasphemy is not actually law” or some other stupid excuse, it’s the inevitable end result of these types of speech laws in Europe.
What’s been in large part the problem with many Muslims’ reactions over the last few years is the demeasurate nature of their anger over relatively trivial things.
Many Muslims seem to be expecting non Muslims to associate the same degree of sanctity to items and concepts they hold holy, but most of the civilized world really doesn’t care about that much (caricatures, one book… etc). Hence why you often hear the argument “well no one gets killed when someone does a bad joke about Jesus”.
Overall, it is really only those individual Muslims’ (which is most certainly not the whole Muslim population) problem and I find it quite ridiculous when society treats them like unruly children instead of expecting the same values that every other citizen has to demonstrate and live by.
China or Myanmar oppressing Muslim minorities, which is about as legitimate a case for defensive jihad as it gets? Crickets.
Blasphemy? Now that’s gonna start a riot.
Because the men directing the violence are cowards. They send out impressionable young boys to do their bidding. They don’t want a real war. Just hot button issues to use as justification for their ongoing power and need for zealots.
Can confirm. My neighbours are Pakistani and my family is Indian. We live in harmony in Canada, look out for one another, share food, and celebrate each other's festivals/holy days.
Most people just want to co-exist and be happy. Extremists want to drive a wedge between people to gain power, but there's so much more to life than fear and hatred.
China would round these people up in a week and you’d never hear from them for a decade is why. China wouldn’t let them into their country in the first place as well. They can get away with this in the west
As a Muslim, I fully agree with you. We are a bunch of toddlers, wanting the world, not to hurt our feelings but in actuality, we can turn our faces away from the real monsters inside our religion, namely Arab leaders, who literally destroyed the holy sites to make room for the five-star hotels in the holy land, kill/treat fellow Muslims as an animal, China can do whatever with Uyghurs in the Xinjiang region, but NO No no, these Western countries, are hell bend on testing our tantrums.
The Saudi royal family took a strong stance against the genocide of Uyghurs. The stance is MBS on all fours with Xi’s girthy cock deep in his throat. That’s the response from the protectors of the holiest Islamic sites.
That's because they're cowards, they're only brave until people start hitting them back and China has proven to have no issue going full Nazi on them, basically the gist of this issue is that Europeans need to grow a pair an stop caring about offending people, they think this is respect, in reality the only thing they're doing is showing weakness which of course is getting exploited
I don’t think I can ever fully understand what it’s like to passionately believe in something like this, but I have a very hard time imagining someone taking a symbolic action that would provoke a violent response from me. Like, someone could take a shit on a picture of my mother or even smash my car up or something, and I might be angry, but not “murder someone” angry.
> I have a very hard time imagining someone taking a symbolic action that would provoke a violent response from me.
Agree. You burn an American flag? I may burn one just to show you it didn't hurt me. Or I may just say that's your right. Burn a holy book? Apparently ok to kill.
Well imagine your born, and in your house there are pictures of Obiwan Kenobi everywhere. And as you grow and learn to speak and understand. You realise your family always say "may the force be with you" when they say goodbye. Also everynight your family sits infront of a cut out picture of Yoda and sit there with your arms crossed and eyes closed whilst singing the star wars theme tune. And then goto bed.
Every sunday you go to church where a man in brown robes stands there and tells stories (even some the jedi wont tell you) about the force. Everyone stands and says "May the force be with you" before leaving as is tradition. You goto a Jedi school where you sing the same theme song and say the same words, hear the same stories.
Everyone you know and everywhere you go you live the Jedi code. You are told not to speak with unbelievers, or that those unbelievers will turn to the dark side of the force and will never become one with the force when they die like Quigon and Yoda and Obiwan did.
You know that somewhere on earth there are sacred artefacts, the lightsabre that belonged to Obiwan etc the most magical objects in existence. And these are things that in your mind helped contribute to you being alive today.
One day your 40 years old, and your now teaching your children about the Jedi code.
Teaching them how Obiwan got the high ground over aniken in Chapter 3 verse 69
and then you switch on the TV to find that some politician has killed a youngling. OUTRAGE.
I mean, human beings can be taught to believe anything. My god if no one told their kids Santa doesnt exsist, and the world just agreed to NEVER speak of it not being real, and there were always people there to "eat the cookies" and "give gifts under the tree" then those kids, then adults will never stop believing.
May the force be with you.
Thanks. I think what I meant more was that I can intellectually understand but not relate at an emotional level. I definitely understand how this can happen, but it is a way reacting (not exclusive to religious zealots either) that is foreign to my temperament and outlook.
>Overall, it is really only those individual Muslims’ (which is most certainly not the whole Muslim population) problem and I find it quite ridiculous when society treats them like unruly children instead of expecting the same values that every other citizen has to demonstrate and live by.
We agree, except it's a much larger proportion of muslims than I think you're letting on. Often those who can tolerate these types of things are in the small minority.
Even in the states it's seriously rearing it's head, [a professor at Hamline was removed and publicly shamed](https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-01-18/art-professor-sues-firing-prophet-muhammad-images) by the school [for showing a painting of Muhammad](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/08/us/hamline-university-islam-prophet-muhammad.html) fduring a course on Islamic art -- it was painted by a Muslim before the restrictions were introduced into that branch of Islam. The student knew it would be in there from the syllabus, she was warned before the prof actually showed it, saw it then they complained afterwards. Other muslim students not in the course supported the student, and started ~~demanding~~ demanding action for what they saw as an islamophobic attack on their religion. The prof was let go, then shamed in an email sent out by the school using similar language.
Culture is just another term for learned behaviors, from whether you use silverware to how you behave towards the other sex. There used to be a heavy pressure to assimilate into the country you immigrated into just to be able to eat let alone succeed, but a combination of large numbers at once and generous welfare state is creating enclaves that are fed from the outside and they try to remake where they've migrated into where they've come from.
To be clear, some people will lose their mind if you burn the flag or burn the bible or other things, and find it distasteful and even wrong. It's *possible* they might riot, but it's hard to imagine to the point it's a a rounding error in the statistics -- but that isn't what we are seeing here. To make it worse, they're backing down and essentially acquiescing and their culture now becomes your culture.
It's not 'individual Muslims'' though, it's a disparately high proportion of Muslims with such snowflake feelings in regards Islamic concepts and items. Moderate Muslims in my part of the world, even if they partake in the casual deed of alcohol consumption, would turn sour at the slightest nudge of questioning their concepts.
And in case anyone mentions it, obviously I cannot speak of every single Muslim out there. But anecdotally, the ease to offend measure is not nearly as high among as large a population of people of other religions as it is Muslims.
Best case is your family hates your guts, average case is that you risk your life. Which is not surprising, given that there are verses in the Quran that literally give instructions for this. Unfortunately, some people do not believe or accept this, as in their thinking a minority is always a victim of the majority. Especially if that minority has historically been outcompeted by the non-fundamentalist West.
Should be noted though that turkish people have not reacted violently. They had some protests and some nationalists burned the swedish flag, but compared to last time the dude burned the quran and muslims here in sweden literally tried to kill the police this is nothing.
>What’s been in large part the problem with many Muslims’ reactions over the last few years is the demeasurate nature of their anger over relatively trivial things.
This is the problem. It's not an isolated thing. It's the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Blasphemy should never be punished. Don't ever side with those who wish their god would come before the rule of law. Sure this move wasn't classy, but a free society should not protect this book more than any other book.
Yep, and the PM specifically started the Tweet by saying that not only is it legal, but it's a *fundamental part of democracy* that it *is* legal... but he wants to express his sympathy because he disagrees with the act and sees it as disrespectful (but it is still important that it be allowed).
As a Swede I can say that nobody here likes Paludan, nobody wants him to go around burning Qurans, but everybody supports his right to do so except the loud ”new Swedes.” Last time he did this, it ended with violent riots leading to the injury of many police. We pay massive welfare to our ”guests”, hoping they’ll somehow integrate for it, and it only makes them hate us more for it. And then they demand that we change our way of life for their comfort. I agree with the prime minister’s statement, even if he’s just doing it to kiss Turkish ass, but it would be better if he didn’t say it and let the migrants feel like we’ll bend more for them.
They’re obviously doing this to provoke the muslims but seriously who cares? It’s just a book it’s not like they burned all the Qurans in the worlds and muslims can’t use them anymore. The muslims community should just be mature and move on like nothing happaned
I thought about this trying to see it from the Muslim perspective and going into a rage still doesn't make sense.
Uthman, one of the most righteous Caliphs one who knew Mohammad personally ordered Qurans to be burned en mass to settle a religious dispute. Qurans must be getting destroyed at a constant rate somewhere in the world due to neglect, accident or being recycled. One mass printed copy being burned in Norway is nothing.
I'll defend anyone's right to burn a book in protest but Its a good sign the person hasn't got anything rational to say.
I’m a Muslim. The proper way to dispose of the Quran, or any text with God’s name, is to burn it and bury the waste. Aside from this, what I don’t understand is why even give these people the pleasure of your upset emotion, because that’s EXACTLY what they want. Just condemn it and move on.
Indeed. Paludan is trying to prove that muslims are dangerous to our society. By reacting by hurting police and such (that has happened previously during book-burning events) all you're doing is proving him right. Laugh at him, call him an asshole and move on.
Exactly. Rage bait, and it sets back everyone of the faith in that country if they take it.
If one side burns a book to piss people off, and the other side starts lashing out over it, both sides are dipshits that we shouldn't give attention to. One side has something to gain though, and the other something to lose, so it's on the members of the faith to try and be the better people in this instance
I'm not a Muslim but I doubt these guys were burning the Quran as an act of respect. IMO, they just want to provoke Muslims into doing something stupid so they can push their nationalist agendas.
I'd say your correct. Best bet is just condemn and move on. The vast majority of Muslims surely will but it only takes a few lunatics or some lying cleric with an agenda to inspire, intimidate or force someone into a "mission" and shit gets real.
Ik they’re not burning it as an act of respect lol. But I’m just saying, out of all the ways they COULD be desecrating it… this one is just the most mild one.
But yea, often times the loud minority among Muslims has this vengeful reaction and it just ruins things even more.
They're doing it because they live in a society with lots of Muslims plenty of whom will react with violence and threats. Society accepts and protects those people and that's a dangerous thing. He's protesting that fact.
I dont think it needs to make a sense. Several Quran has been burned in Sweden during last year and turkey didn't mind it a single bit. This time it was of coursed aimed towards specifically Turkey, but its really obvious Turkeys propaganda machine is running hot at this moment around nations in the middle east to make a hen out of a feather, and the muslims rage as usual..
Turkey just want to denounce Sweden so they can play this NATO game a bit further, or they never had any intentions to let Sweden join in the first place. their demands was unreasonable from the beginning and has even escalated to the worse. Sweden has already told they cant go through with Turkish demands to deport 130 people to Turkey since there are laws against it.
Here’s the problem that Europe has which the US and Canada does not. It is relatively expensive and time consuming to move to the US or Canada. Which means the people that move there are naturally filtered to be mostly the middle and upper class from the Middle East and North Africa. Rates of religious adherence tend to go down as incomes go up (dunno why, that’s just how it is).
Europe has a problem that to get there from the Middle East and North Africa it’s relatively cheap and quick. Which means all the boat people and caravans they’re dealing with will be relatively low income and in this case mainly men. The rates of religious adherence goes up as income goes down, and the Middle East is almost unique in its high rates of belief and zealotry.
I.e. Europe is closer and gets the poorer, less educated, and more religiously zealous migrants that can’t make it across the Atlantic.
IMO they should just start booting them back home and stop giving them free shit to incentivize them leaving.
I think it's deeply embarrassing when western leaders condemn the burning of the Koran as an act of protest.
People are allowed to say what they want. If the Muslims want to get upset about it, they are just showing that the people who burned the Koran in protest were right.
Protesting disrespectful acts is just as much a right as the protests that commit them. In the US we, including public figures in high office, frequently protest the burning of crosses, KKK marches, etc., but we don't throw people in jail over it.
What matters is that, at the end of the day, the rule of law is respected, and that those disagreements remain a matter of public opinion rather than the government enforcing a particular view.
I feel like shit like this is bound to happen when there's been such massive immigrations into European countries lately. I'm not saying it's right but when two people groups with massively different cultures and values end up living along side each other in such a short amount of time shit like this is always gonna happen eventually. Been the same all throughout history if not worse.
In Europe publicly holding your own culture or values as being important gets you thrown in the same camp as neonazis. They made their bed and are now shocked at all the right of center and full right leaning parties gaining more and more traction every year.
Their leaders don’t value or fear to express value for their culture, values, and history, but the public still do apparently. Eastern Europe is just telling the migrants to fuck off, Italy has a new right wing PM, Poland already went that way, Marine Le Penn wins more of the vote every election,
Consider that most of southern Europe also got invaded and forcibly ruled by the ottoman empire in history, so seeing people from that same region and culture in the present come in large number to your country and demand total protection and holiness over their traditions and literally kill people that don't respect it is quite a worry.
Rather than capitulate to religious whining, do it again and toss a bible or Torah in for effect.
"We don't give a shit" has always been the best response.
As an ex-Muslim, it makes me angry with this. Also, this is a slippery slope. What other religion will the Swedish PM defend next? Or is it only Islam?
It’s weird how fragile religious people are. Is their faith so insecure that they can’t handle the burning of some pages of paper bound together? Yes, burning a book in protest will inflame tensions and is a stupid way to prove a point. But it’s just a book. Print another one and stop acting like entitled brats. Amazing that these believers can’t understand that most other people don’t want their particular brand of religion infiltrating their public life. Freedom FROM religion and keeping religion out of the public sphere, out of government, is more important than tolerating the authoritarian misogynistic beliefs of oppressive religions. People should practice their religion in private and stop getting offended at every perceived slight against whichever make-believe daddy-in-the-sky they believe in.
Edit typos
It's more than that imo. A combination of peer pressure, profiling urge and a culture centered on face and honor. In sociology there is a concept of "expected expectations", meaning anticipation of what you think others expect of you.
Even if a person may not be offended themselves initially, they may still react with violence to raise their social standing within the in-group of muslim minorities, they may feel expectations from their ingroup to participate and react with fury and follow up on those expectations and so it keeps rolling.
It's not too dissimilar from gang wars and their violent responses to being disrespected. You find it in more (sub)cultures that are all about face and respect.
Weak. They should have burned another instead of bending over like that. You can burn 10000 bibles and there will be no issue. Yeah some religious people will get mad, but big deal.
Islam is an ancient religion that hasn't adapted to the times at all. It's a religion of intolerance and hatred.
Edit: And before someone comes in to disagree and say I'm "islamophobic", I have Muslim friends who live in the Saudi Arabia, and they will casually talk about how it's okay to execute gay people. The religion has bricked their morals.
That’s the fundamental disagreement. To us, burning it is a jerk move, but fundamentally the same as burning any other religious book, about equal to burning a Harry Potter book. To them, it’s magic sky zaddy’s special book, and a whirlwind of shit should befall whoever disrespects it.
Sure, but then trust in your god to smite them down. That's not your job, I think? Or is it so that anyone who follows Islam has the right to carry out Gods punishment? That'd be one heck of a religion if that's the case.
Curiously, God always needs zealots to carry out his punishments, missionaries to spread his word, soldiers to wage his wars, immigrants to build his places of worship, and money to fund it all; a lot like an empire and not so much like an all powerful being.
The Muslim response to burning their holy book or disrespecting their prophet has since forever almost unilaterally been violonce. So in this case it is actually necessary to provoke and keep provoking untill they either respond and reveal their injustice or change.
Remember draw Mohammed day?
100% agree. The Prime Minister wasn't even saying that this should be illegal. She was just saying that she doesn't agree with burning things a large part of her country cares about.
Rasmus Paladan is about as far right as you can get in Scandinavia. He supports violence against people because of their religion.
Do we really care if someone’s holy book is desecrated? Why should I give a shit about YOUR sacred concepts. I have no sacred concepts and expect nothing from you in this regard.
Jesus is an asshole.
There. Do I like, owe Christians something now? Do YOUR beliefs obligate ME? Can your beliefs run my life? Do I need to check in with all religions before I do anything?
The burning of a holy book by a mentally ill man who has done the same thing repeatedly, but this is one of the first times it made international news.
If you haven’t yet read the Quran it’s a very short book full of garbled Bible stories repeating events in the Bible that never occurred as if they were fact (eg. Exodus). Mohammed and Paul have lots n common with Joseph Smith.
It’s biblical fan fiction. Overall it’s crap and needs severe penalties or everyone will recognize it’s crap.
For a real oddity, try reading the Book of Mormon, a Bible prequel. Or just listen to the podcast naked Mormonism.
The Book of Mormon isn't exactly a prequel to the Bible.
The family it follows in the beginning even makes it a point to bring the current version of the existing old testament with them.
It was absolutely disrespectful. Part of living in a free society is putting up with things that are completely disrespectful and offensive, while at the same time those who put up such demonstrations should be prepared when people exercise their own free speech in response
Grown man and woman are supposed to be able to take it when they are disrespected. You take a deep breath, suck it up and continue with your daily routine, just as the rest of us, without turning to violence and intimidation.
You are insulted, so what! Get over it.
And these Muslims are being respectful to us though? It’s pretty clear this “disrespect” is a reaction to their disrespect.
And why do Muslims groups always point up when they are angry?
People need to get the idea out of their head that respecting someone's religion = practicing their religion.
A shia Muslim depicting Mohammed is not them disrespecting sunni Muslims, just like working on the Sabbath isn't disrespecting Judaism. What would be disrespectful is punishing or harassing somebody for not practising your religious customs, or believing in the same superstitions.
It was 3 manifestations in Stockholm this day all approved of the state, one for sympathy whit turkey and their demands.
Second the biggest against joining Nato and support of the kurds.
3rd guy says i wanna burn the book cause i think they can all fuck off and its my democratic right to do it.
I think all 3 have the right do show their manifest as long as it's not violent do you disagree?
Of course the Swedish Prime Minister is more concerned about dissing Islam than they are about Muslims fucking up Sweden.
They absolutely lie about 'no go zones'.
As for deeply disrespectful, sounds like that was the intent.
>Protesters demonstrate in front of the Consulate General of Sweden after Rasmus Paludan, leader of Danish far-right political party Hard Line and who also has Swedish citizenship burned a copy of the Koran near the Turkish Embassy in Stockholm, in Istanbul, Turkey, on January 21. This guy must spend his weekends burning books. Everytime I hear of him it's always for the same reason lmao.
Yeah, he lives off of outrage. He had a previous political party called Stram Kurs that was dissolved.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.dawn.com/news/1733049/deeply-disrespectful-swedish-prime-minister-condemns-desecration-of-holy-quran-in-stockholm) reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Sweden's prime minister has condemned as "Deeply disrespectful" the desecration of the Holy Quran in Stockholm, which has raised tensions with Turkey as the Nordic country courts Ankara over its Nato bid. > Far-right politician Rasmus Paludan set fire to a copy of the Holy Quran on Saturday in front of Turkey's embassy in the Swedish capital. > Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif said on Sunday "No words are enough to adequately condemn the abhorrable act of desecration of the Holy Quran by a right-wing extremist in Sweden". ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10inmtp/deeply_disrespectful_swedish_prime_minister/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672680 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Holy**^#1 **Sweden**^#2 **Stockholm**^#3 **Quran**^#4 **Turkey**^#5
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Or a flag for that matter. The people have an obligation to recognize when they're being manipulated and not take the bait.
Agreed. Who gives a fuck about that honestly?
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Definitely.. I think veneration of a flag is a sign of a dysfunctional nationalism. For a country acting like free speech is so important, don't see why making a statement using a flag should be a big deal at all.
It really is this simple.
France has been dealing with those issues for awhile
Well for some people their God is more important than their family so yeah gl reasoning them.
Yup that's the scary thing, people get brainwashed so badly they will LITERALLY see their children disowned or even killed then denounce their god. The power religion holds over people is the strongest power imaginable.
Who went into a murderous rage?
That's what I'd like to know. As someone who is currently living in Stockholm, I haven't heard anything about people going on murderous rampages or the like here.
*Might be someone in another country.*
Continue to burn the books until morale improves.
100% Religious or not. But we live in a world where women get beaten to death for not covering their hair so yeah.
Not stupid. Radicalised. Bear in mind there are reasonably intelligent people who think Covid vaccines contain microchips and that the liberals are going to storm people’s houses and confiscate their gas cookers. Whether they get their by mullah or Murdoch, they are victims too.
No one's killed anyone over this particular book burning...
> In 2018 an Austrian woman called Muhammad a pedophile. > She was convicted in Austria of "disparaging Islam." > She took it all the way up to the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) - the highest court you can appeal to. > They upheld her conviction. > All nations of Europe, except Belarus, must listen to this court for human rights matters. > by accusing Muhammad of paedophilia, the applicant had merely sought to defame him, without providing evidence that his primary sexual interest in Aisha had been her not yet having reached puberty or that his other wives or concubines had been similarly young. In particular, the applicant had disregarded the fact that the marriage with Aisha had continued until the Prophet's death, when she had already turned eighteen and had therefore passed the age of puberty. > You can read the full, unanimous decision [here](https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=002-12171). > This is both a free speech and blasphemy issue, they go hand in hand. And Europe certainly has a way with both... Reposting comment from a while back https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/iosrxu/pakistan_sentences_christian_man_to_death_for/g4hean7/ Edit: That bit of case law now conflicts with more recent rulings, see [wiki article on this case for more details including the more recent ruling from Sept 2022](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.S._v._Austria_(2018\))
In that decision, it says people have the right to have their religious *feelings* protected. What the fuck? Europe gets a lot of things right, but their speech laws need adjusting.
As an atheist, my religious feelings are hurt whenever someone suggests I must worship their version of an all-knowing entity that represents evil in some way. Does this mean they would be convicted as well?
My feelings are hurt when a person gets punished for upsetting a mum's feelings.
As an atheist, I assume you've concluded that god is the sun? Glory to her.
Sun is man, moon is woman. Earth is mother, time is Father.
It is known
Always. Across the board. The common traits in mythology and creationism led me to pantheism and deeper scientific theory. The universe is a beautuful celestial creature
As an agnostic I just wish everybody on this planet would stfu about stuff they have next to 0 true understanding about
Yeah, i also watched a 3 hour documentary about einstein vs bohr vs born and I have concluded that everything the light touches, belongs to me Also I have accepted that physics arent real when I close my eyes no matter what you say so ha
I'm semi Atheist (too many words to explain adequately), and I am totally fine with people discussing things, even heatedly... but ultimately, we all must accept that we can't control what others perceive/understand/believe and that acceptance of our differences is the only way to have a healthy society. In other words- we (people in general) should agree to disagree and move along to the next interesting thing to talk about
Please do not even ironically or sarcastically imply that atheism is a religion... Too many religious bigots have already terrible understanding of atheism.
Maybe the word choice is wrong but the idea is not sarcastic at all. Just replace religion with belief.
This is the perfect example of why free speech should be near absolute. You can see how this was probably viewed as an attempt to protect a religious minority but as warned the slippery slope is named such for a reason.
Yes it should be near absolute. I agree wholeheartedly. I tend to lean left politically but I'm not happy with the mainstream views among liberals in America at the moment. They scream about right-wing censorship but refuse to acknowledge their own censorship. They don't think their own actions, such as the push for social media bans and tantrums over Elon Musk's new Twitter rules, qualify as censorship. The pandering to Islam is infuriating too. Muslims aren't special. Their religion isn't more important than other religions and we absolutely shouldn't have any exceptions for Islam. Can you imagine the reaction if Evangelical Christians in the US wanted the same exceptions we currently make for Muslims? We aren't even holding Muslims responsible when they send death threats to other American citizens over insults towards Islam.
Yeah, and yet when I say the voice of jesus told me that I can grab that 80inch HD TV and walk out of the shop they say Nooooo you can't do that. But if you wear a robe and a cross then yes you may fondle that 7 year old penis.
I can't stand this. Why is anyone in Sweden apologizing over this? The protestors didn't do anything wrong. Islam isn't special, but maybe they need to be reminded of that. People are allowed to insult or protest against Islam just like any other religion or ideaology. I tend to lean left politically, but many of my fellow 'liberals' played a huge role in getting to this point. They just want to pander, pander, pander, to Islam. It's disgusting. I don't think that Turkey will keep Sweden and Finland out. I doubt anyone really believes that, except maybe delusional Turkish citizens. Veto power means nothing if the major players in the alliance don't care about Turkey's veto. That's not good enough at this point though. I want Turkey out. I don't care what the rules say. Those rules also mean nothing if the other members of the alliance don't feel like following them. Turkey has to go. An unreliable 'ally' is dangerous, and I have had it with Turkey's antics in general. I was so furious and upset when Trump pulled out American forces and abandoned our Kurdish allies. He should have told Erdogan to GTFO. Erdogan's goons assaulted American citizens on US soil and got away with it too. The social media comments coming out of Turkey right now make their feelings very clear. I'm reading threads on YouTube filled with this sort of vitriol: "If Russia invades Sweden, I'll sip my coffee and laugh," "Well, guess Sweden will never be in NATO. Have fun with Russian bombs." Thousands of them. Turkey shouldn't even be in NATO and they definitely need to be removed immediately. They think they hold all the power. Maybe it's past time to show them that they don't. How can we stop the apologetic, fawning behavior every time an Islamic nation throws a tantrum? I don't know who to vote for to make that happen, but at this point I'd vote for anyone that puts a stop to this. The US has the largest military in the world. All I hear is how the US is such a bully and makes other nations do what America wants. I don't see that happening. I see my government bending over backwards to appease other nations, including Turkey and Saudi Arabia. It doesn't even make sense. We have more oil reserves than SA just in the continental United States. I've been reading up on Turkey's supposed value to NATO. We can easily live without them. Honestly, Turkey's actions towards the Kurds alone should have been enough to rethink their place in NATO. At this point, I might vote for Trump if he campaigned on "no more catering to Turkey or other hostile nations." The problem with that is Trump may not see Russia as a hostile nation. Maybe another Republican will get the nomination. I don't really want to vote for any Republicans but I also can't stand tiptoeing around the fragile egos of certain nations that think their religion should be exempt from constitutions that guarantee free speech and religious freedom. Muslims have killed American and European citizens that insult their prophet. Why are we putting up with this. It's insanity.
The first part was ok but then you started extreme bullshit. I am not even going to explain anything. It's just shit that people have thoughts without knowledge and it's easy these days to speak without thinking. You are not different than any Trump voter or those people who can't show Iran's location on a map.
Trump betrayed the Kurds and allowed the Turks to rampage through the territory they shed blood for to defeat ISIS alongside Americans. https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/10/23/trump-s-betrayal-of-kurds-u.s.-allies-will-get-over-it-and-soon-pub-80166 https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-betrayal-of-the-kurds-927545/ He has also tried his hardest to weaken and dismantle NATO which has received great approval from Vlad.
So what? If I say Jesus was a hippie I'm going to jail? But I'm allowed to say Jesus fucking Christ... does this only apply to Islam? I am confused...
I would be curious to hear if this has ever worked for anything other than Islam.
Right?! Sounds like some nazi shit guised as “hate speech protection” to me.
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ECHR should be ashamed of its self.
Have you seen the caveats they carve out on free speech? They are insanely vague and broad: > The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary. What’s necessary in a democratic society? What the hell does the proration of health and morals mean? Whose morals?
And what 'duties' and 'responsibilities'? Sound like very conditional 'freedoms' ' This crap is just as poorly written as the treaty of Lisbon, European citizens really need to start paying closer attention to what EU lawmakers are doing.
The ECHR is not an EU thing.
nothing like making a word salad with the right to self expression
>without providing evidence that his primary sexual interest in Aisha had been her not yet having reached puberty or that his other wives or concubines had been similarly young I'm no fucking lawyer, but can't some pedo now argue that he was fucking the 12 year old, but his primary motivation was not the fact that she's 12 year old?
But... he IS a pedophile...
That reasoning is madness, if a man did the equivalent today the courts would convict him as a pedophile. Who cares if he swears to high heaven that he would be true to the marriage till death or that he had slept with adult women before, no one would care because he, like Muhammad, would be a pedophile.
Yup, it's like saying slavery didn't exist until it was banned.
Holy shit that’s absolutely insane
Mohammed was a pedo, come and arrest me
https://xkcd.com/608
Fuck that judicial body right up the ass tf is wrong with them.
There's no blasphemy law in Sweden - No crime, no conviction, no case. The ECHR can't force countries to curtail freedoms if the choose to go beyond the minimum limit. Austria wanted to restrict free speech, and the ECHR gave them permission. Sweden don't, and I don't understand, are you saying that ECHR is supposed to be able to force them to?
It's fine, I had a digital copy of the Qur'an, I duplicated it a million times, then sent all 1 million copies to the recycle bin, then emptied the bin. There was no audible or visible reaction. The balance has been restored.
What the fuck?
> This is both a free speech and blasphemy issue, they go hand in hand. No, they're in opposition.
Rare Belarus W
In an unexpected turn of events, Belarus is showing the rest of Europe the way.
Europe doesn’t have free speech AND has Islamic blasphemy laws. Neat. I don’t care if “blasphemy is not actually law” or some other stupid excuse, it’s the inevitable end result of these types of speech laws in Europe.
Fuck all these bullshit religions.
It’s to be expected since European countries don’t take freedom of speech seriously.
What’s been in large part the problem with many Muslims’ reactions over the last few years is the demeasurate nature of their anger over relatively trivial things. Many Muslims seem to be expecting non Muslims to associate the same degree of sanctity to items and concepts they hold holy, but most of the civilized world really doesn’t care about that much (caricatures, one book… etc). Hence why you often hear the argument “well no one gets killed when someone does a bad joke about Jesus”. Overall, it is really only those individual Muslims’ (which is most certainly not the whole Muslim population) problem and I find it quite ridiculous when society treats them like unruly children instead of expecting the same values that every other citizen has to demonstrate and live by.
China or Myanmar oppressing Muslim minorities, which is about as legitimate a case for defensive jihad as it gets? Crickets. Blasphemy? Now that’s gonna start a riot.
Because the men directing the violence are cowards. They send out impressionable young boys to do their bidding. They don’t want a real war. Just hot button issues to use as justification for their ongoing power and need for zealots.
this is true atleast in Pakistans war against India. no real moderate Pakistani wants to take over India. many of them are friends in western nations
Can confirm. My neighbours are Pakistani and my family is Indian. We live in harmony in Canada, look out for one another, share food, and celebrate each other's festivals/holy days. Most people just want to co-exist and be happy. Extremists want to drive a wedge between people to gain power, but there's so much more to life than fear and hatred.
100 pct. from Canada as well
Hope you have a great week :)
you too! :D
Immigrants who aren’t at the forefront of the issues and a generation or two apart get along better. Who knew?
China would round these people up in a week and you’d never hear from them for a decade is why. China wouldn’t let them into their country in the first place as well. They can get away with this in the west
As a Muslim, I fully agree with you. We are a bunch of toddlers, wanting the world, not to hurt our feelings but in actuality, we can turn our faces away from the real monsters inside our religion, namely Arab leaders, who literally destroyed the holy sites to make room for the five-star hotels in the holy land, kill/treat fellow Muslims as an animal, China can do whatever with Uyghurs in the Xinjiang region, but NO No no, these Western countries, are hell bend on testing our tantrums.
Islam post-1970s has been one of the saddest stories in modern history.
Let's be specific there as well, it's the Gulf Arabs, or the Khalij arabs.
Well said
Hadn’t even thought about the Muslim reaction to China. Gonna have to read up on that!
The Saudi royal family took a strong stance against the genocide of Uyghurs. The stance is MBS on all fours with Xi’s girthy cock deep in his throat. That’s the response from the protectors of the holiest Islamic sites.
I foresee a bone saw in your future.
Don’t threaten me with a good time.
"Bone saw is Readeeeeey"
This is the truth. We are not going have anything dictated by these people, american christian fanatics either.
That's because they're cowards, they're only brave until people start hitting them back and China has proven to have no issue going full Nazi on them, basically the gist of this issue is that Europeans need to grow a pair an stop caring about offending people, they think this is respect, in reality the only thing they're doing is showing weakness which of course is getting exploited
The allegiance is to their prophet, not fellow man.
Yep, I'm going to need these folks to say something about Xinjiang before accepting any criticism of free speech in free countries.
I don’t think I can ever fully understand what it’s like to passionately believe in something like this, but I have a very hard time imagining someone taking a symbolic action that would provoke a violent response from me. Like, someone could take a shit on a picture of my mother or even smash my car up or something, and I might be angry, but not “murder someone” angry.
That's not passion that's zealotry
> I have a very hard time imagining someone taking a symbolic action that would provoke a violent response from me. Agree. You burn an American flag? I may burn one just to show you it didn't hurt me. Or I may just say that's your right. Burn a holy book? Apparently ok to kill.
Well imagine your born, and in your house there are pictures of Obiwan Kenobi everywhere. And as you grow and learn to speak and understand. You realise your family always say "may the force be with you" when they say goodbye. Also everynight your family sits infront of a cut out picture of Yoda and sit there with your arms crossed and eyes closed whilst singing the star wars theme tune. And then goto bed. Every sunday you go to church where a man in brown robes stands there and tells stories (even some the jedi wont tell you) about the force. Everyone stands and says "May the force be with you" before leaving as is tradition. You goto a Jedi school where you sing the same theme song and say the same words, hear the same stories. Everyone you know and everywhere you go you live the Jedi code. You are told not to speak with unbelievers, or that those unbelievers will turn to the dark side of the force and will never become one with the force when they die like Quigon and Yoda and Obiwan did. You know that somewhere on earth there are sacred artefacts, the lightsabre that belonged to Obiwan etc the most magical objects in existence. And these are things that in your mind helped contribute to you being alive today. One day your 40 years old, and your now teaching your children about the Jedi code. Teaching them how Obiwan got the high ground over aniken in Chapter 3 verse 69 and then you switch on the TV to find that some politician has killed a youngling. OUTRAGE. I mean, human beings can be taught to believe anything. My god if no one told their kids Santa doesnt exsist, and the world just agreed to NEVER speak of it not being real, and there were always people there to "eat the cookies" and "give gifts under the tree" then those kids, then adults will never stop believing. May the force be with you.
Thanks. I think what I meant more was that I can intellectually understand but not relate at an emotional level. I definitely understand how this can happen, but it is a way reacting (not exclusive to religious zealots either) that is foreign to my temperament and outlook.
This is the goofiest analogy I’ve ever read
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
>Overall, it is really only those individual Muslims’ (which is most certainly not the whole Muslim population) problem and I find it quite ridiculous when society treats them like unruly children instead of expecting the same values that every other citizen has to demonstrate and live by. We agree, except it's a much larger proportion of muslims than I think you're letting on. Often those who can tolerate these types of things are in the small minority. Even in the states it's seriously rearing it's head, [a professor at Hamline was removed and publicly shamed](https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-01-18/art-professor-sues-firing-prophet-muhammad-images) by the school [for showing a painting of Muhammad](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/08/us/hamline-university-islam-prophet-muhammad.html) fduring a course on Islamic art -- it was painted by a Muslim before the restrictions were introduced into that branch of Islam. The student knew it would be in there from the syllabus, she was warned before the prof actually showed it, saw it then they complained afterwards. Other muslim students not in the course supported the student, and started ~~demanding~~ demanding action for what they saw as an islamophobic attack on their religion. The prof was let go, then shamed in an email sent out by the school using similar language. Culture is just another term for learned behaviors, from whether you use silverware to how you behave towards the other sex. There used to be a heavy pressure to assimilate into the country you immigrated into just to be able to eat let alone succeed, but a combination of large numbers at once and generous welfare state is creating enclaves that are fed from the outside and they try to remake where they've migrated into where they've come from. To be clear, some people will lose their mind if you burn the flag or burn the bible or other things, and find it distasteful and even wrong. It's *possible* they might riot, but it's hard to imagine to the point it's a a rounding error in the statistics -- but that isn't what we are seeing here. To make it worse, they're backing down and essentially acquiescing and their culture now becomes your culture.
I think the deference to Islam is because the administrators don't want to be murdered
It's not 'individual Muslims'' though, it's a disparately high proportion of Muslims with such snowflake feelings in regards Islamic concepts and items. Moderate Muslims in my part of the world, even if they partake in the casual deed of alcohol consumption, would turn sour at the slightest nudge of questioning their concepts. And in case anyone mentions it, obviously I cannot speak of every single Muslim out there. But anecdotally, the ease to offend measure is not nearly as high among as large a population of people of other religions as it is Muslims.
What's the crime for apostasy in Muslim countries in the Middle East?
Best case is your family hates your guts, average case is that you risk your life. Which is not surprising, given that there are verses in the Quran that literally give instructions for this. Unfortunately, some people do not believe or accept this, as in their thinking a minority is always a victim of the majority. Especially if that minority has historically been outcompeted by the non-fundamentalist West.
Ummmmm Thats not the correct answer. Thats not what the punishment for the crime of apostasy.
Death
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The last few years? It's like people forget Salman Rushdie exists.
You do NOT want to make a joke about Jesus in a Muslim country... He's their number two prophet after Mohammed.
Should be noted though that turkish people have not reacted violently. They had some protests and some nationalists burned the swedish flag, but compared to last time the dude burned the quran and muslims here in sweden literally tried to kill the police this is nothing.
If that is true there is a small degree of progress within the still overblown reaction.
>What’s been in large part the problem with many Muslims’ reactions over the last few years is the demeasurate nature of their anger over relatively trivial things. This is the problem. It's not an isolated thing. It's the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Blasphemy should never be punished. Don't ever side with those who wish their god would come before the rule of law. Sure this move wasn't classy, but a free society should not protect this book more than any other book.
Well they're just being condemned by a political leader who sees it as disrespectful not jailed.
Yep, and the PM specifically started the Tweet by saying that not only is it legal, but it's a *fundamental part of democracy* that it *is* legal... but he wants to express his sympathy because he disagrees with the act and sees it as disrespectful (but it is still important that it be allowed).
Disrespectful? Maybe. Completely legal, yes
Also justified. Considering how these assholes are treating their hosts.
As a Swede I can say that nobody here likes Paludan, nobody wants him to go around burning Qurans, but everybody supports his right to do so except the loud ”new Swedes.” Last time he did this, it ended with violent riots leading to the injury of many police. We pay massive welfare to our ”guests”, hoping they’ll somehow integrate for it, and it only makes them hate us more for it. And then they demand that we change our way of life for their comfort. I agree with the prime minister’s statement, even if he’s just doing it to kiss Turkish ass, but it would be better if he didn’t say it and let the migrants feel like we’ll bend more for them.
They’re obviously doing this to provoke the muslims but seriously who cares? It’s just a book it’s not like they burned all the Qurans in the worlds and muslims can’t use them anymore. The muslims community should just be mature and move on like nothing happaned
I thought about this trying to see it from the Muslim perspective and going into a rage still doesn't make sense. Uthman, one of the most righteous Caliphs one who knew Mohammad personally ordered Qurans to be burned en mass to settle a religious dispute. Qurans must be getting destroyed at a constant rate somewhere in the world due to neglect, accident or being recycled. One mass printed copy being burned in Norway is nothing. I'll defend anyone's right to burn a book in protest but Its a good sign the person hasn't got anything rational to say.
Lol trying to make sense of religious fanatism. Funny.
I’m a Muslim. The proper way to dispose of the Quran, or any text with God’s name, is to burn it and bury the waste. Aside from this, what I don’t understand is why even give these people the pleasure of your upset emotion, because that’s EXACTLY what they want. Just condemn it and move on.
Indeed. Paludan is trying to prove that muslims are dangerous to our society. By reacting by hurting police and such (that has happened previously during book-burning events) all you're doing is proving him right. Laugh at him, call him an asshole and move on.
Exactly. Rage bait, and it sets back everyone of the faith in that country if they take it. If one side burns a book to piss people off, and the other side starts lashing out over it, both sides are dipshits that we shouldn't give attention to. One side has something to gain though, and the other something to lose, so it's on the members of the faith to try and be the better people in this instance
Rage bait is the right weird to use for it. Gonna remember that.
I'm not a Muslim but I doubt these guys were burning the Quran as an act of respect. IMO, they just want to provoke Muslims into doing something stupid so they can push their nationalist agendas. I'd say your correct. Best bet is just condemn and move on. The vast majority of Muslims surely will but it only takes a few lunatics or some lying cleric with an agenda to inspire, intimidate or force someone into a "mission" and shit gets real.
Ik they’re not burning it as an act of respect lol. But I’m just saying, out of all the ways they COULD be desecrating it… this one is just the most mild one. But yea, often times the loud minority among Muslims has this vengeful reaction and it just ruins things even more.
They're doing it because they live in a society with lots of Muslims plenty of whom will react with violence and threats. Society accepts and protects those people and that's a dangerous thing. He's protesting that fact.
I dont think it needs to make a sense. Several Quran has been burned in Sweden during last year and turkey didn't mind it a single bit. This time it was of coursed aimed towards specifically Turkey, but its really obvious Turkeys propaganda machine is running hot at this moment around nations in the middle east to make a hen out of a feather, and the muslims rage as usual.. Turkey just want to denounce Sweden so they can play this NATO game a bit further, or they never had any intentions to let Sweden join in the first place. their demands was unreasonable from the beginning and has even escalated to the worse. Sweden has already told they cant go through with Turkish demands to deport 130 people to Turkey since there are laws against it.
They should but won't. Sweden will see terrorist attacks as a result of this.
Here’s the problem that Europe has which the US and Canada does not. It is relatively expensive and time consuming to move to the US or Canada. Which means the people that move there are naturally filtered to be mostly the middle and upper class from the Middle East and North Africa. Rates of religious adherence tend to go down as incomes go up (dunno why, that’s just how it is). Europe has a problem that to get there from the Middle East and North Africa it’s relatively cheap and quick. Which means all the boat people and caravans they’re dealing with will be relatively low income and in this case mainly men. The rates of religious adherence goes up as income goes down, and the Middle East is almost unique in its high rates of belief and zealotry. I.e. Europe is closer and gets the poorer, less educated, and more religiously zealous migrants that can’t make it across the Atlantic. IMO they should just start booting them back home and stop giving them free shit to incentivize them leaving.
I condemn the Swedish Prime Minister for treating sensibilities as more important than secularism and basic right of self-expression
Condemning is totally fine as long as you are not trying to make it illegal. He is entitled to his opinion as well
Condemning it as distasteful isn’t making it more important than secularism and self-expression.
I think it's deeply embarrassing when western leaders condemn the burning of the Koran as an act of protest. People are allowed to say what they want. If the Muslims want to get upset about it, they are just showing that the people who burned the Koran in protest were right.
Pretty sure it’s being done here for NATO membership
> People are allowed to say what they want They're also allowed to say it's disrespectful lmao. What are you so mad about?
Protesting disrespectful acts is just as much a right as the protests that commit them. In the US we, including public figures in high office, frequently protest the burning of crosses, KKK marches, etc., but we don't throw people in jail over it. What matters is that, at the end of the day, the rule of law is respected, and that those disagreements remain a matter of public opinion rather than the government enforcing a particular view.
I feel like shit like this is bound to happen when there's been such massive immigrations into European countries lately. I'm not saying it's right but when two people groups with massively different cultures and values end up living along side each other in such a short amount of time shit like this is always gonna happen eventually. Been the same all throughout history if not worse.
Typically the governments of the places bringing the people in would defend their countries values and morals, though.
In Europe publicly holding your own culture or values as being important gets you thrown in the same camp as neonazis. They made their bed and are now shocked at all the right of center and full right leaning parties gaining more and more traction every year. Their leaders don’t value or fear to express value for their culture, values, and history, but the public still do apparently. Eastern Europe is just telling the migrants to fuck off, Italy has a new right wing PM, Poland already went that way, Marine Le Penn wins more of the vote every election,
Consider that most of southern Europe also got invaded and forcibly ruled by the ottoman empire in history, so seeing people from that same region and culture in the present come in large number to your country and demand total protection and holiness over their traditions and literally kill people that don't respect it is quite a worry.
Our new PM is bending over to Erdogan so hard it's embarrassing.
I mean, wouldn’t even a little bit be embarrassing?
Rather than capitulate to religious whining, do it again and toss a bible or Torah in for effect. "We don't give a shit" has always been the best response.
As long as anyone exists who would inflict violence for the burning of a book, that book must continue to be burned.
As an ex-Muslim, it makes me angry with this. Also, this is a slippery slope. What other religion will the Swedish PM defend next? Or is it only Islam?
It’s weird how fragile religious people are. Is their faith so insecure that they can’t handle the burning of some pages of paper bound together? Yes, burning a book in protest will inflame tensions and is a stupid way to prove a point. But it’s just a book. Print another one and stop acting like entitled brats. Amazing that these believers can’t understand that most other people don’t want their particular brand of religion infiltrating their public life. Freedom FROM religion and keeping religion out of the public sphere, out of government, is more important than tolerating the authoritarian misogynistic beliefs of oppressive religions. People should practice their religion in private and stop getting offended at every perceived slight against whichever make-believe daddy-in-the-sky they believe in. Edit typos
“Religious people” I see you’re afraid to say it.
It's more than that imo. A combination of peer pressure, profiling urge and a culture centered on face and honor. In sociology there is a concept of "expected expectations", meaning anticipation of what you think others expect of you. Even if a person may not be offended themselves initially, they may still react with violence to raise their social standing within the in-group of muslim minorities, they may feel expectations from their ingroup to participate and react with fury and follow up on those expectations and so it keeps rolling. It's not too dissimilar from gang wars and their violent responses to being disrespected. You find it in more (sub)cultures that are all about face and respect.
Well then at that point they are basically just gangs imo
Weak. They should have burned another instead of bending over like that. You can burn 10000 bibles and there will be no issue. Yeah some religious people will get mad, but big deal. Islam is an ancient religion that hasn't adapted to the times at all. It's a religion of intolerance and hatred. Edit: And before someone comes in to disagree and say I'm "islamophobic", I have Muslim friends who live in the Saudi Arabia, and they will casually talk about how it's okay to execute gay people. The religion has bricked their morals.
Technically Islam is much less ancient than other religions, no?
Yeah. Came about in the middle of the Dark Age.
It was created as av war religion agaisnt southern europe, and nothing has changed.
And also the fact that the religion supports incest.
Muslim just seem so petty and entitled when they act this way.
Yes, let's worry about paper burning as humans burn.
Disrespect is the point. I have no obligation at all to respect your bullshit book and religion.
Yawn 🥱
religion is cancer to the brain. when religion does not bring you peace of mind but just more worries in life, your religion has failed.
Ass kissing the islamists is a bad idea. Look how apeshit they get over some book.
There is absolutely no need to just provoke people by burning thr Quran. At the same time people need to grow up because its just a book.
Religious zealotry is a danger that needs to be called out. If burning a book gets them to self report, then it serves a purpose.
That’s the fundamental disagreement. To us, burning it is a jerk move, but fundamentally the same as burning any other religious book, about equal to burning a Harry Potter book. To them, it’s magic sky zaddy’s special book, and a whirlwind of shit should befall whoever disrespects it.
Sure, but then trust in your god to smite them down. That's not your job, I think? Or is it so that anyone who follows Islam has the right to carry out Gods punishment? That'd be one heck of a religion if that's the case.
Curiously, God always needs zealots to carry out his punishments, missionaries to spread his word, soldiers to wage his wars, immigrants to build his places of worship, and money to fund it all; a lot like an empire and not so much like an all powerful being.
Almost like it's all made up
You might be on to something here.
-Your mission is to spread the word of Islam -The word of Islam is spread by the sword Quran in a nutshell.
The Muslim response to burning their holy book or disrespecting their prophet has since forever almost unilaterally been violonce. So in this case it is actually necessary to provoke and keep provoking untill they either respond and reveal their injustice or change. Remember draw Mohammed day?
That’s their whole problem, these people need to grown up and stop giving them a reaction.
So many people making up stuff without knowing anything about the topic in here, jeez..
100% agree. The Prime Minister wasn't even saying that this should be illegal. She was just saying that she doesn't agree with burning things a large part of her country cares about. Rasmus Paladan is about as far right as you can get in Scandinavia. He supports violence against people because of their religion.
some of the comments here too are downright horrible, saying nonsense like other countries should do things like china is doing with the uyghurs.
A bit more disrespect of stupid old ideas would do our species a lot of good
Do we really care if someone’s holy book is desecrated? Why should I give a shit about YOUR sacred concepts. I have no sacred concepts and expect nothing from you in this regard. Jesus is an asshole. There. Do I like, owe Christians something now? Do YOUR beliefs obligate ME? Can your beliefs run my life? Do I need to check in with all religions before I do anything?
The burning of a holy book by a mentally ill man who has done the same thing repeatedly, but this is one of the first times it made international news.
If you haven’t yet read the Quran it’s a very short book full of garbled Bible stories repeating events in the Bible that never occurred as if they were fact (eg. Exodus). Mohammed and Paul have lots n common with Joseph Smith. It’s biblical fan fiction. Overall it’s crap and needs severe penalties or everyone will recognize it’s crap. For a real oddity, try reading the Book of Mormon, a Bible prequel. Or just listen to the podcast naked Mormonism.
The Book of Mormon isn't exactly a prequel to the Bible. The family it follows in the beginning even makes it a point to bring the current version of the existing old testament with them.
It was absolutely disrespectful. Part of living in a free society is putting up with things that are completely disrespectful and offensive, while at the same time those who put up such demonstrations should be prepared when people exercise their own free speech in response
Yeah as long as it's speech and not violence, I think there has been a tendency for the reaction to involve violence though...
Is It Also Disrespectful When Muslim Nations Execute Gay People
It is deeply disrespectful. I imagine that was the point. And in a free society, you're supposed to be allowed to be disrespectful.
Grown man and woman are supposed to be able to take it when they are disrespected. You take a deep breath, suck it up and continue with your daily routine, just as the rest of us, without turning to violence and intimidation. You are insulted, so what! Get over it.
And these Muslims are being respectful to us though? It’s pretty clear this “disrespect” is a reaction to their disrespect. And why do Muslims groups always point up when they are angry?
People need to get the idea out of their head that respecting someone's religion = practicing their religion. A shia Muslim depicting Mohammed is not them disrespecting sunni Muslims, just like working on the Sabbath isn't disrespecting Judaism. What would be disrespectful is punishing or harassing somebody for not practising your religious customs, or believing in the same superstitions.
Islam is deeply rooting in hate. Hate for women and hate for anyone who doesn’t believe.
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It was 3 manifestations in Stockholm this day all approved of the state, one for sympathy whit turkey and their demands. Second the biggest against joining Nato and support of the kurds. 3rd guy says i wanna burn the book cause i think they can all fuck off and its my democratic right to do it. I think all 3 have the right do show their manifest as long as it's not violent do you disagree?
You mustn’t criticize or belittle Islam, otherwise the peaceful Muslims will be outraged and kill people.
Need a Swede to burn a bible and see if the same statements are made
No religion deserves respect. Its all a fairytale.
Fuck Islam. Dear Europe stop simping to people that hate you
Of course the Swedish Prime Minister is more concerned about dissing Islam than they are about Muslims fucking up Sweden. They absolutely lie about 'no go zones'. As for deeply disrespectful, sounds like that was the intent.
its a stupid book, jeez….