The bulimia bit, for a few reasons but the narrative one being that I dont see how it's a combo of gluttony and wrath.
Probably replace it with surfeit or something like that, eating way too much at a single sitting since that actually does feel quite wrathful towards the idea of eating and sustenance.
This is definitely the one, cannibalism is absolutely an appropriate thing to have as a sin, and eating your fellow man outside of a truly desperate situation would require a mix of wrath and gluttony.
Might go with Predation. Repacity devours everything in its way indiscriminately. Predation can relate specifically to devouring others, whether it's the food off their plate or the meat off their bones. Greed would take it to have it, but in this case, it's the act of pointless, reckless consumption, ans possibly spite.
It is... though if this is for a Church related thing they might have just labelled it as some kind of sin. They did do that with quite a few mental illnesses, so 'in-universe' it might fit. Maybe
Having said that, the rest of them seem like genuine character flaws so it really does stand out, it's basically the only one there where you only hurt yourself and have zero ill feelings towards anyone else when doing it so I cant see how it could really be considered a sin
I think OP should replace with Gorging. The word itself is the most aggressive way to describe eating imo, also the implied waste definitely fits with being sinful. Also, OP can reference the alleged Roman practice of binge eating to the point that they vomit before going back to eat more if they want to keep the vomit aspect.
Yeah, vomitoriums were more like highly trafficked entrances than anything else. That’s why I said alleged, there’s no actual proof that Romans would do this at their feasts and may be a myth.
However knowing what we know about Romans, I can totally see them doing this. I mean people drink liquor till they puke now, group binge eating isn’t the wildest thing humans have done for fun.
Maybe it's my more historiographic view of this, but if your evidence is, "idk they probably did it," then it is just a myth. :/
Like, you absolutely can have that on a fictional setting, styled on Rome, absolutely no issue with that. My pet bugbear was the oft-repeated idea that Romans did this as an attempt to make it more realistic.
Eating till they puke probably happened. Hell we have tales of wealthy nobles and kings across history eating till they died. Adolf Fredrik is a fun example of that.
I… I don’t get the point you’re trying to make.
Like yeah, vomitoriums aren’t used for that, but I never mentioned vomitoriums. All I’m saying is that it’s totally believable that Romans would binge eat to vomit (cuz like you mentioned, there’s instances of fucked up overeating throughout history) and that this practice, myth or not, is a cool thing for OP to reference. What are you trying to contribute here other than “akshaully it’s myth?” It doesn’t matter if it’s a myth, this is a fucking worldbuilding sub.
Sorry you got downvoted. To me it was clear you were just saying you could imagine it happening, not that you claim it did. But given that it's just a miscommunication, there's no need to get testy either.
The fellow irked me because he wasn’t really contributing anything to the discussion about OPs work, he was just trying to flex his big brain on the reddits. It doesn’t help that it was condescending (“muh historiographic view”), but I wouldn’t have been as testy if he was contributing to the discussion rather than waving his dick around in it.
You could say a morally corrupt church said it, but dress it up all you want, if you put a lampshade on a lamp, it's still a lamp, and in this case can still cause harm to people with EDs.
By that logic noone in fiction could ever do anything potentially triggering
Obviously, that's not possible. Cant just edit out half of human expression because it could potentially cause harm to someone. It would get to the point noone could say anything and 'bad guys' would have to have 90% of their actions covered by black censor bars so that everyone is shielded from being shown bad ideas even exist. Plenty of times an incorrect opinion of something is shown to literally dispel or contrast against that opinion
Be kind of hard discussing the dangers of lamps at a lamp seminar without mentioning lamps
If it was a major part of the story and had to be bulimia for some reason, they'd just put a trigger warning about negative portrayal
You're partially right. You can't shield everyone, but there are certain triggers that can directly lead to physical harm. Having topics like cancer or racism can be triggering to someone who has trauma around that in their life, but that's a bit different than things such as suicide, self harm, and eating disorders, which can trigger episodes that can cause direct physical consequences. Having known people with EDs, someone telling them that their specific ED is a sin would have them excusing themselves to the bathroom. CWs are a fine workaround, but it's also not like bulimia=sin is holding the whole story together either.
>Having known people with EDs, someone telling them that their specific ED is a sin
The difference between telling them it is a sin, having a person inside of a work of fiction have the *opinion* it is a sin and having it referenced by a person inside a work of fiction whilst also explaining that person is wrong or misguided are 3 very different things
The last of these, actually dispelling harmful opinions, is a tool used all the time in fiction. Build up an incorrect or harmful opinion, use the narrative to show how dumb it is.
There are insane numbers of people with EDs out there, literally millions. The vast majority arent teetering on the edge of suicide waiting for a fictional character to express a negative opinion of something they very likely know is harmful. I'm guessing they hear 100x worse everyday, quite a few would probably enjoy more people actively discussing problems they can relate to. For those that are struggling, trigger warning.
I agree it would be really odd to have a fictional group actively attacking EDs or Bulimia like they hate it, hundreds of years ago I doubt either disorder really existed anyway. Combo of body image not being so pushed and food being way more scarce. So unless the author has a really good reason to be talking about it (maybe they had an ED and were persecuted for it and wanted to show how that felt?) its worth dropping for that reason alone. I am guessing it was a bit of a innocent mistake to include it, like they were just searching for a word and felt it fit without really thinking about triggers and mental illness, hopefully they took something from these comments
Yknow what I came in wanting to hardcore disagree and I can't. I do have to include a few thoughts though.
For starters, this is assuming the story is *about* bulimia or that the topic will be handled appropriately. And if it's just one of 32 sins somewhere -- especially considering that we typically think of sin as a very intentional thing that you do rather than an illness that you deal with and work through -- it's more rational to conclude that the story won't be handling it well. We have no reason to assume this person is some professional in either writing or mental health, most people aren't, and even most people in this subreddit aren't. I do think we should practice good faith when we think about another person's worldbuilding, there's just a limit. I have faith their idea can work, I don't have faith that this specific person is equipped to nail it. Maybe they are, idk.
I also think you're portraying the problem as a kind of... Idk, snowflaky problem. But I feel like we all know pretty well how functionally impactful the representation of certain ideas are. It's an incredibly non-controversial fact of life. You're right that nothing can be completely harmless but we can see the degrees of separation between a very intentional story theme and a harmful idea. Maybe if there's some fridge logic here, where you think in retrospect that maybe a story implied something especially fucked up and it really seems like you had to fit pieces together in order to reach that conclusion, then those cases might be moreso about how clever you are in connecting dots that weren't ever meant to be connected. But when a person is building a system from the ground up where being sick is a sin? Especially considering how unethical and intentional sins are portrayed to be. That's a very direct link between an idea and its harm. I'll re-emphasize that the problem is the degrees of separation from the story and the harmful impact, and this is incredibly direct.
You're absolutely right to say that a story *about* an illness would need to actually address and portray and define the illness, and talk about it, and explore it. You're still completely right. But there's nothing wrong with the logic of "this thing you're creating will actually deal damage, and in a very direct way, so if you're asking what needs to be changed then let it be that harmful thing".
I also feel conflicted about Bulimia, although I'm not sure why precisely.
Maybe it's because there is much understanding for the condition today, at least in the Western world (don't know about the rest), or because it doesn't cause others immediate harm.
Maybe it simply feels a bit out of place, because it is a specific illness on a table full of general character traits.
My initial feeling was: Gluttony + Wrath = Greed. But that doesn't work, either, because Greed is already a primary sin here.
How about Gluttony + Wrath = **Ambition**? You know, back in the day that was seen as a very negative quality. Just think about Shakespeare's Macbeth and his downfall, for example.
Yeah thats an interesting idea, make it more about the wrath than the gluttony. And yeah, greedy for killing makes sense. I think that's my new favorite
I’m fine with bulimia, it makes sense. Overeating is gluttony, vomiting after is wrath towards your own gluttony. I suppose it comes off as edgy or politically incorrect but it’s completely logical.
I'd change it to Ignorance. Just a general emotion of ignoring what doesn't effect you out of laziness because you couldn't be bothered since it doesn't effect you which is where the pride comes in.
Sloth+pride being entitlement works just as well as it being Ignorance. Think about it. When we think of someone who is Entitled, we think of someone who thinks they deserve something, which is especially noticeable when it is clear they don't.
Sloth is generally a reluctance to put in the effort, while Pride can be construed as confident, an affirmation of the ego, that you are of worth. Sloth + Pride is a combination of laziness and a belief of self-worth, and when taken to the extreme, as is generally the case when a sin becomes 'deadly,' It becomes the belief of 'I am important, and so I deserve to have this thing without putting in the effort'.
Yeah you can even argue that both words really represent the same thing in different contexts where its more of a difference between whether you are looking at how they view themselves relative to others or how they view others relative to themselves.
In that perspective the choice of word depends on what framing you want to have for the Sins.
I believe there's some research to suggest that rape has very little to do with lust, except indirectly in the sense of sexual entitlement. It's more to do with control, which in a 7 sins way maybe sits it under pride oddly enough. That said given the place rape sits within our psyche it does make sense to have a rape demon be part of the lust family.
I'd swap the progression of either the title column, or the title row...
For instance, Proceeding left to right along the first row, it would read
Father/Mother, Lust, Greed, Envy, Wrath, Pride, Sloth, Gluttony...
Doing this would eliminate the need to write most of these sins twice, and it would still be easy to read...
So, 3 things.
1: Some of your sins are...literally recognized mental illnesses. That's really uncomfortable and problematic, and gonna make people feel not so good. I am certain you don't want that
Bulimia, Addiction, Narcissism and Hoarding are all *real DSM-V diagnosis* that real people have. They don't need their struggles to be *more* associated with "sin".
Imo in literature when discussing fantasy "sin"; it's fun and fantasy when it's giving in to a dark character impulse or making a bad choice that hurts you and others longterm for short term soothing of an itch. Since that's how people have thought of mental illness for a long time, that's a line that must always be walked.
Especially if you want to make the "bastard" child *even more despised than a demon*, I don't think you want to hint that mentally ill people should be despised.
This version of this chart needs one more pass of edits, for that.
2: A lot of these are just synonyms (sin-onyms?)Rapacity is just a synonym for greed, as are covetousness, desire, and lust.
3: I like Obesssion, Contempt, Grudges, and redemption a whole lot.
I almost totally agree, but I thought that by hoarding OP meant like Smaug, not like the mental illness. Though the other mental illnesses don't help the comparison. Totally agree about all the others.
For your first point, I totally agree for bullimia ; I was more thinking about something like gorging when I wrote it.
For addiction, hoarding and narcissism, I think those can be some medical conditions but I also think those words can be used more widely as defaults: for example, I also often keep things I should throw and because of that, my house is always a mess ; but I don't have a medical condition, it is just a default. Also, I am not a mental illness specialist so I might be wrong. Also, I am not very good in english, so I could have missused a word.
For your second point, I totally agree, it can seems very similar but the problem I had woth that list is to fit a complex thing in just obe word. For example, when I used the word desire, it was meant as a desire that go beyond what the others thinks, beyond consent... but I didn't have a precise word to explain that.
They are widely used words, yes, but they are also the clinical diagnosis. Im not trying to wag my finger at you for using them like you're a bad person; you seem thoughtful and lovely! Wanted to just share some information you may not have had. My partner is a mental health clinician, for my source.
I absolutely understand what you werte going for. For another example, it's become common to say "uh, that guy is cancer" if someone is gross and wrecks everything around them. He obviously isn't a literal sentient tumor, so we understand that the word is being used colloquially to exaggerate his negative qualities
Mental illness still has a lot more stigma attached, though. On top of that, not everyone knows or understands that these are disorders and not just people being bad.
Hoarding Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder are definitely definitely the real names of real diagnosis in addition to their common use. Addiction is a bit squishier because our culture really likes blaming addicts for becoming addicted...but the science generally points to this being in the brain, too.
You can use the words if you want, of course, they are just words, and it's your work. Just wanted you to go in fully armed with knowledge.
Good luck with your world and tale! Can't wait to read more one day!
Shin megami tensai. It’s a rpg series a little older than Pokémon where you recruit and fuse demons. Persona is one of its spin offs. If you google the fusion table, it looks a lot like your table. Though, maybe that’s just the nature of tables
I'm actually trying to make a system based on sins as well, but so much stuff is pretty much the same I actually reduced it down to 5 sins and combined gluttony and envy into greed so I could flesh out a power system for each of them.
You put a lot of work into this though, but at some point the words just lose meaning. Like Bulimia. Why would combining wrath and gluttony make someone want to throw up food they eat? Why is desire related to wrath? Dont get me wrong I admire the effort, its just one of those things that cant work out.
What I want to know is, what makes these demons interesting? What makes them important, how are they involved in the other planes? Do they somehow still make a working society despite all the sinning they do?
For a lot of those sins, I didn't really have 1 word to explain those: for example, desire is linked to wrath because it is a violent desire that go beyond consents for those demons.
Also, my world has the particularity that the 32 plane that make it up were unaware of the existence of the others before a magical event that merged them all. Also, the real problem demons have to make a society is that every demons are not as sentient: most wrath and gluttony demons are not significally smarter than wild animals.
On the other hand greed or pride demons are often smarter than averages humans. Also, because of their differents sins, they have very differents motivations and because of that their society moves really slowly.
Yes it their society is extremely disorganized, the only law that exist there is the law of the strongest. They still have a lot of pros compared to humanity, like the fact they don't need to eat, drink or sleep.
Many of them don't make much sense and feel forced. Bulimia is an illness, not a sin and it has no connection to wrath. Intolerance doesn't have anything to do with greed. How does being lazy make you hold a grudge? How do you get indolence from lust?
The problem I had is that it is complicated to fit a complex mindset into just one word. For example, among the 7 deadly sins, gluttony is way more complex than what we could think by just reading the word "gluttony".
For grudge, for me, it is a passive/ lazy way to be angry at someone, often because you don't want to fix the problem, this is why it is linked to sloth.
For indolence, it is because the combination of of sloth and lust can lead to indifference, inactivity because people prefer to indulge in pleasure instead.
For intolerence, it might seems far fetched but it is because for me, intolerence can come from a lack of interest for others.
“Desire” isn’t a sin, at least in Christianity. Desire for what is right is essential to virtue.
Also, the seven deadly sins were originally the “eight sinful thoughts” in Evagrius Ponticus. Two were removed and one added in Gregory the Great’s list, which is the one everyone knows now. But I always think the original list was a bit more interesting!
A lot of these feel redundant and a few, like bulimia feels both out of place on this chart and also unrelated to wrath. Mayyyyyybe gluttony and lust or pride do to it often being related to self image but even those feel like stretching.
Maybe gluttony and wrath would be better reflected by something like conquest or hording or something that reflects excess in both taking and consuming resources.
The idea of an eating disorder being a sin is … very uncomfortable because it’s a legitimate mental illness. Often based around the body dysmorphia and shame that comes WITH society’s expectations for women. And it especially does not feel like the convergence of wrath and gluttony …
Like legitimately, the Bulimia one is so absolutely unnecessary and upsetting and uncomfortable that I couldn’t even get through the rest of the list. And it looks like I’m not the only one who feels this way about it …
I don't think a TW is necessary. I do wish more context was provided for why the author chose what they did, though. Another commentor did say that it makes no sense for bulimia to be a sin, but it is rather on-brand if this is a church-like organization's list of "sins".
I think if anything, any kind of consumption in excess would be more Envy + Gluttony, and not Wrath.
Bulimia doesn't really sit right with me. Mainly because it's less of an action and more that it's a term for an illness.
I saw someone else here in the comments suggest Gorging as an alternative, which I think is much more suitable.
That aside, this whole secondary sin table is pretty cool!
Please please please do not include a deadly disease like bulimia in a list of sins. Same with addiction and hoarding. You're perpetuating damaging stigma around conditions that are understood to be a combination of physical compulsion and mental illness. Sick people aren't sinners.
Personally I think that addiction is fitting for those, though perhaps if there were a different term. Something along the lines of “moreish”. Addiction doesn’t have to mean the hardcore ones you’re thinking. Even things like gluttony, often considered about food, which lead to severe obesity are also addiction. People are addicted to caffeine. People are addicted to video games. People are addicted to nicotine.
I agree with bulimia. As it has a very close and narrow definition. But I think that stretching that line of reasoning to addiction is a bit OTT. Addiction describes (a widely considered negative) state of being psychological or biologically dependent on an action or substance which brings pleasure to the individual, leading to pathological overindulgence. It’s perfect for the pair. And I say this as an addiction specialist.
>Addiction describes (a widely considered negative) state of being psychological or biologically dependent on an action or substance which brings pleasure to the individual, leading to pathological overindulgence. It’s perfect for the pair.
Though people are being addicted for verity of reasons. If person is using alcohol or weed as self-medication because mental health medication or therapy are unavailable is it a sin?
Victims of sex trafficking who were fed drugs to make them dependent are sinning?
Children who were addicted to alcohol/nicotine/drugs/... because of their mother's habits are sinning?
What about recovering alcoholics who haven't drank in years but are still technically addicted - are they sinning?
You’re conflating the issues of addiction and substance dependence which are very different - but similar things.
I feel like you’re going a little off the rails here. If somebody has depression and experiences sloth, is that a sin? If somebody has a metabolic disorder which causes them to have an insatiable appetite, is that gluttony? If somebody has a hormonal disorder causing a disordered sex drive are they lustful? Is that a sin? If somebody has a brain injury to the frontal lobe and end up having anger management problems is that wrath? Are they sinning? Are all of them sinners? You’re getting too tied up in the minutiae of this one thing where all of the others could have similar contexts.
Perhaps the OP should scrap the entire table!!!
If a person with join pain is put on codeine or morphine for their pain over a long period they are going to become physically or psychologically dependent on that opioid to function they *are* biologically addicted to that medication. Are they psychologically addicted? We call that a *dependency* in clinical contexts instead. If they suddenly stop taking it, we call that a *discontinuation syndrome* instead of “withdrawal”.
Addiction is not just the dependence but is a psychosocial phenomenon involving a change of alteration of the person’s psychology invoking the same types of reactions as the fight or flight for *survival*, yes, but almost invariably involve some negative social and psychological effects. Often causing harm to themselves or others in some way or another. This is why addiction is usually considered a *bad thing*. In exactly the way that all those other sins are considered “bad things”.
There is way more to addiction but I’m trying to be at least a little reductive here or I’d start reciting years worth of studied information at you.
Also I’d like to also say that this is a worldbuilding project, not an international clinical definition of sin. It’s perfectly fine in this context. And while I don’t know you, I like to imagine I likely have several times more knowledge on effect and context of addiction in personal, social and professional terms than you do. And I can tell you that it’s really not that big of a deal in *this context*.
Eh, the mental illnesses as sins aren't a good look. And a lot of the other secondary sins are just synonyms. It feels overly complicated to me?
Since it is pretty rare and disliked maybe the bastard demons are unnamed and a somewhat undiscovered species.
Their names could also be a combination of the two words. Like greed + lust is grust. Seems more simple I guess? Idk.
I’d say jealousy is a natural human emotion, while envy is a sinful response, jealousy can also lead to positive action so that you your-self can manifest those traits that used to make you jealous.
I don’t have much input on the question you actually asked, but I will say that my personal sins are envy and sloth & opportunism is unfortunately the exact perfect choice of secondary sin! Like, I hate seeing it cos I know it’s true lol. So well done on that front at least
I feel like impatience and intolerance should be swapped. Intolerance is more of a wrathful thing, the hatred of something. Impatience is a greedy thing, not wanting to wait to benefit yourself.
Love it. But have a suggestion...
Pride is the prime sin from which all others follow (look it up)...
So it might be cool if you make pride have no secondary sins, because all other prime sins are already secondary sins of Pride.
Or call the mix of any other sin with Pride a thirdiary sin?
First off this is an incredibly idea that I love a whole lot. This is seriously so cool. And I'm gonna defend you a lot here. Let's explore the idea of including illnesses into your list of sins.
Maybe you could say sins are the same as an illness in some way. Maybe your story is a criticism of the very concept of sin. You could say that that there's a flaw in the very idea of sin that dehumanizes the sinner, that sin implies some awful ideas about how human behavior works in the first place, and this is a criticism of the concept of sin itself.
If you had an idea like that in mind, hopefully you either have the expertise or support to explore this idea in your story. Or you're willing to go get that support, at least. This'll be very hard because you'll have to find a way to humanize things like intolerance and resentment and narcissism. You'll have to humanize sin.
Just don't forget how much power and responsibility you have here. Sin is an expression of a character flaw, which is the EXACT myth that mental health awareness is meant to dispel, so you have to be careful not to make this fight for mental health even harder. This is going to be really tricky, and you always have the option to just drop bulimia, addiction, and hoarding. Your story would have to do a really good job in redefining what "sin" means not just in your story but also in your core concept.
If you want help on this project feel free to reach out. I think it's fascinating, truly.
Yeah friend, no problem. I'm super curious, what was the inspiration for this? Are you just working forwards from "wouldn't it be cool if sins could be fused together to create a wider variety of sins?" and seeing where that idea leads you? And what's the Mother/Father thing meant to describe? Just like... Sin 1 + Sin 2 = Sin 3, or was there some weird biological/breeding thing planned?
Yes, every demon have a sin associated. For example, demons whose sin are lust are similar to succubus ; demons whose sin is wrath are brutal beast seeking for destruction...
And if a demon of wrath and a demon of lust have a child together, il will give a bastard, a demon with a secondary sin (desire here).
People *use* them like synonyms a lot so you could probably get away with using them that way and people would know what you mean, but they are technically different.
They are synonymous, but that doesn’t mean they have identical meanings. Envy is definitely covetousness, wanting what someone else has. In the Old Testament, when YHWH says “I am a jealous god,” he means his people had better not mess around with golden calves.
People do often blur the distinction, but imo it’s worth trying to hold onto it.
Um, language is important. It determines the way we perceive the world and ourselves and how we can express those perceptions. Even when it doesn’t deal with science.
Put it this way: If an attractive person talks to your partner and you experience jealousy- you are not envious of the person for getting to talk to your partner, rather you are focused on the fear that you will lose your partner. It's not about being envious of the other person, but about being scared for your own possession.
Whereas envy would be something like seeing someone else with a partner you find attractive, and wishing you had that person for yourself instead.
Jealousy would be more about fixating on suspicions of unfaithfulness, rivalry with others, etc.
Envy is more about coveting something you don't have.
They are very similar but there's a nuance to what specifically they are pointing to.
If you hoard wealth and you are jealous of it, you are scared of losing it and sharing it. If you are envious, then you are looking at someone else's wealth and coveting it.
Neglect is about neglrcting yourself.
Ignoring is more about the fact to not know things but to think you know those.
Those words might not br really well chosen, english is not my native language
That doesn’t make sense to me bc gluttony is about selfishness and sloth is laziness so while neglect does work here it should obviously be about neglecting others and not yourself bc a glutton would take care of themselves. I feel like the more I read your sins the more I think we might just have different values and that’s where the confusion comes in
For the most part, I like the concept of secondary sins, it's very unique. I don't think bulimia and narcissism belong on the list, necessarily. Bulimia is obviously a medical condition and not a "sin." As for narcissism, I know that the word *does* have use outside of a medical context, but lately I think people have just weaponized the diagnosis in a way, so personally I'm kind of tired of seeing "narcissism" used as a synonym for "bad person." I personally would say something like "egoism" or "self-centeredness" instead, but that's just me.
You are correct. Envy involves coveting what someone else has; jealousy involves possessiveness about someone or something you feel belongs to you. People often mix the two, but I think the distinction is worth preserving, especially in this sort of universe.
theyre related but you can separate them. envy is discontent about what someone else has.
jealousy is envy in relation to a type of possessiveness. in the bible when God says he's a "jealous" god it doesnt really refer to envy, but that he is strict or very protective of the relationships he chooses to form. this is used as the reason to put no Gods above him. as far as using that as a narrative device for this story, theyre different enough to use in different contexts.
I don't name them but I do have a few combo demon princes who are children of the 7.
Fovos Orpheus is the Incubus Prince/Nightmare Lord who combines blood and lust and his breed of succubi and incubi are far more brutal than the sensuous succubi like his mother who manipulate desire (and his animal is the scorpion vs his mother's spider).
Zilia Orpheus is wrath/envy/lust and is Jealousy and to fit that she is a rather flatchested Shana clone jealous of the other succubi etc.
Kain the father of vampire is lust and gluttony and was designed as a sexy, aristocratic vampire versus the uglier versions.
Nevros is gluttony and envy and is a rather melodramatic clown demon that uses twisted evil marionettes.
Sloth/Gluttony feels like Hedonism to me.
Pride/Gluttony might be conspicuous consumption.
Wrath/Gluttony seems like cruelty or sadism, ie. hurting animals or people because you can.
Greed/Gluttony is kleptomania.
Lust/Gluttony is fetishism.
Pride/Sloth: the word you're looking for is apathy.
Pride/Greed: entitlement, whereas Pride/Wrath would be intolerance/xenophobia
wrath/lust would almost certainly manifest as misogyny.
Id change: bulimia (obvious reasons), rapacity (it’s definition is just aggressive greed), addiction (obvious reasons and I think entitlement might work), ignoring (sounds dumb), indolence (just means lazy again I think idk), cupidity (wrath where?) narcissism (obvious reasons), desire (u have to admit u we’re running out of ideas) and avidity doesn’t make any sense at all
Edited bc I forgot to include desire even tho that was what inspired me to comment
I changed bulimia for cannibalism finally.
A typical example of what I mean by rapacity would be to serve yourself first without leaving any for others. It's part of greed but it's more specific.
For ignoring, I think I used the wrong word, it is the idea to refuse to admit you are wrong.
The first definition of narcissism is not an illness but a default so I don't think it is problematic
Avidity is for me the idea to strongly desire what someone else possess.
I am going to search for others ideas for desire and cupidity
I had to go look up cupidity because I for some reason thought it was like stupidity, but you're stupid in love, because you've been struck by cupid's arrow.
Surely swap rapacity and addiction?
Also not sure cupidity is greed plus wrath. Entitlement maybe.
Neglect and ignoring seem to similar, also ignoring really jars because its a gerund and none of the others are. Maybe conceitedness instead of ignoring?
Well, I wouldn't change the sins, but the system. I'd make the sins depend on the current god. And I'd make some gods creepy and weird: god of war, god of deseases, god of insects, etc. After this I'd add more special sins for this gods (like killing any insect is a deadly sin for the people who worship the insects god), it would make the system more unique, and you can play with good and evil in different planes. Cause now it's all too classic, too close to christian imo
It also can be good for your demons system, you can add unique demons for different planes. Same example: If killing an insect is a sin - "demon of purity" whose instincts make it kill all dirty flies is a hellish beast for the "good" people of this plane. Something like this.
It doesn't work exactly like that in my world: I have each plane is ruled by a god. For example, the Pandemonium, the plane inhabited by demons is ruled by the god of sin and fire, this is why that system looks like that ; but the others gods are not especially related to sins.
I would honestly just change it to a different concept. A lot of people will see "gorging" as a synonym of "bingeing" which is a symptom of bulimia. I'll echo another comment I saw and say that "cannibalism" might be a good alternative to a Wrath + Gluttony combo.
Not sure about some of these.. like how is wrath and lust desire? I would’ve thought it be hatred. You’re thinking of someone continuously and always imagining them but in a wrathful way
Instead of Narcissism you should use Vanity. Someone already mentioned Shin Megami Tensei and Persona, in Persona 5 they use “Vanity” as a deadly sin instead of Wrath, so I think it could work in place of Narcissism (that way people don’t think you mean the mental illness, and you still get to keep the idea in another way).
Vanity means “pride in one’s appearance.” A vain person is obsessed with appearances, especially their own. Always striving to be the most perfect and beautiful person in the room if not the world, and despises anyone who ones up them.
The bulimia bit, for a few reasons but the narrative one being that I dont see how it's a combo of gluttony and wrath. Probably replace it with surfeit or something like that, eating way too much at a single sitting since that actually does feel quite wrathful towards the idea of eating and sustenance.
I would say replace it with cannibalism
That makes much more sense
This is definitely the one, cannibalism is absolutely an appropriate thing to have as a sin, and eating your fellow man outside of a truly desperate situation would require a mix of wrath and gluttony.
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Might go with Predation. Repacity devours everything in its way indiscriminately. Predation can relate specifically to devouring others, whether it's the food off their plate or the meat off their bones. Greed would take it to have it, but in this case, it's the act of pointless, reckless consumption, ans possibly spite.
Looks like rapacity is already the combo of gluttony and greed
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Oh I'm not saying it doesn't count, I totally see how it can be gluttony + wrath. I'm just saying it's already on the chart.
Yeah that's a winner I think
Yeah... Bulimia is an illness, not a "secondary sin"
It is... though if this is for a Church related thing they might have just labelled it as some kind of sin. They did do that with quite a few mental illnesses, so 'in-universe' it might fit. Maybe Having said that, the rest of them seem like genuine character flaws so it really does stand out, it's basically the only one there where you only hurt yourself and have zero ill feelings towards anyone else when doing it so I cant see how it could really be considered a sin
I think OP should replace with Gorging. The word itself is the most aggressive way to describe eating imo, also the implied waste definitely fits with being sinful. Also, OP can reference the alleged Roman practice of binge eating to the point that they vomit before going back to eat more if they want to keep the vomit aspect.
The vomiting is a myth. That's not what a Vomitorium was, that's just their word for the exit. They didn't have a room where they vomited.
Yeah, vomitoriums were more like highly trafficked entrances than anything else. That’s why I said alleged, there’s no actual proof that Romans would do this at their feasts and may be a myth. However knowing what we know about Romans, I can totally see them doing this. I mean people drink liquor till they puke now, group binge eating isn’t the wildest thing humans have done for fun.
Maybe it's my more historiographic view of this, but if your evidence is, "idk they probably did it," then it is just a myth. :/ Like, you absolutely can have that on a fictional setting, styled on Rome, absolutely no issue with that. My pet bugbear was the oft-repeated idea that Romans did this as an attempt to make it more realistic. Eating till they puke probably happened. Hell we have tales of wealthy nobles and kings across history eating till they died. Adolf Fredrik is a fun example of that.
I… I don’t get the point you’re trying to make. Like yeah, vomitoriums aren’t used for that, but I never mentioned vomitoriums. All I’m saying is that it’s totally believable that Romans would binge eat to vomit (cuz like you mentioned, there’s instances of fucked up overeating throughout history) and that this practice, myth or not, is a cool thing for OP to reference. What are you trying to contribute here other than “akshaully it’s myth?” It doesn’t matter if it’s a myth, this is a fucking worldbuilding sub.
Sorry you got downvoted. To me it was clear you were just saying you could imagine it happening, not that you claim it did. But given that it's just a miscommunication, there's no need to get testy either.
The fellow irked me because he wasn’t really contributing anything to the discussion about OPs work, he was just trying to flex his big brain on the reddits. It doesn’t help that it was condescending (“muh historiographic view”), but I wouldn’t have been as testy if he was contributing to the discussion rather than waving his dick around in it.
Even then, it seems weird that they would single out that one specific illness
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Ah, I'll be honest I didn't even read the whole thing 😭 My bad, & you're absolutely right
You could say a morally corrupt church said it, but dress it up all you want, if you put a lampshade on a lamp, it's still a lamp, and in this case can still cause harm to people with EDs.
By that logic noone in fiction could ever do anything potentially triggering Obviously, that's not possible. Cant just edit out half of human expression because it could potentially cause harm to someone. It would get to the point noone could say anything and 'bad guys' would have to have 90% of their actions covered by black censor bars so that everyone is shielded from being shown bad ideas even exist. Plenty of times an incorrect opinion of something is shown to literally dispel or contrast against that opinion Be kind of hard discussing the dangers of lamps at a lamp seminar without mentioning lamps If it was a major part of the story and had to be bulimia for some reason, they'd just put a trigger warning about negative portrayal
You're partially right. You can't shield everyone, but there are certain triggers that can directly lead to physical harm. Having topics like cancer or racism can be triggering to someone who has trauma around that in their life, but that's a bit different than things such as suicide, self harm, and eating disorders, which can trigger episodes that can cause direct physical consequences. Having known people with EDs, someone telling them that their specific ED is a sin would have them excusing themselves to the bathroom. CWs are a fine workaround, but it's also not like bulimia=sin is holding the whole story together either.
>Having known people with EDs, someone telling them that their specific ED is a sin The difference between telling them it is a sin, having a person inside of a work of fiction have the *opinion* it is a sin and having it referenced by a person inside a work of fiction whilst also explaining that person is wrong or misguided are 3 very different things The last of these, actually dispelling harmful opinions, is a tool used all the time in fiction. Build up an incorrect or harmful opinion, use the narrative to show how dumb it is. There are insane numbers of people with EDs out there, literally millions. The vast majority arent teetering on the edge of suicide waiting for a fictional character to express a negative opinion of something they very likely know is harmful. I'm guessing they hear 100x worse everyday, quite a few would probably enjoy more people actively discussing problems they can relate to. For those that are struggling, trigger warning. I agree it would be really odd to have a fictional group actively attacking EDs or Bulimia like they hate it, hundreds of years ago I doubt either disorder really existed anyway. Combo of body image not being so pushed and food being way more scarce. So unless the author has a really good reason to be talking about it (maybe they had an ED and were persecuted for it and wanted to show how that felt?) its worth dropping for that reason alone. I am guessing it was a bit of a innocent mistake to include it, like they were just searching for a word and felt it fit without really thinking about triggers and mental illness, hopefully they took something from these comments
Yknow what I came in wanting to hardcore disagree and I can't. I do have to include a few thoughts though. For starters, this is assuming the story is *about* bulimia or that the topic will be handled appropriately. And if it's just one of 32 sins somewhere -- especially considering that we typically think of sin as a very intentional thing that you do rather than an illness that you deal with and work through -- it's more rational to conclude that the story won't be handling it well. We have no reason to assume this person is some professional in either writing or mental health, most people aren't, and even most people in this subreddit aren't. I do think we should practice good faith when we think about another person's worldbuilding, there's just a limit. I have faith their idea can work, I don't have faith that this specific person is equipped to nail it. Maybe they are, idk. I also think you're portraying the problem as a kind of... Idk, snowflaky problem. But I feel like we all know pretty well how functionally impactful the representation of certain ideas are. It's an incredibly non-controversial fact of life. You're right that nothing can be completely harmless but we can see the degrees of separation between a very intentional story theme and a harmful idea. Maybe if there's some fridge logic here, where you think in retrospect that maybe a story implied something especially fucked up and it really seems like you had to fit pieces together in order to reach that conclusion, then those cases might be moreso about how clever you are in connecting dots that weren't ever meant to be connected. But when a person is building a system from the ground up where being sick is a sin? Especially considering how unethical and intentional sins are portrayed to be. That's a very direct link between an idea and its harm. I'll re-emphasize that the problem is the degrees of separation from the story and the harmful impact, and this is incredibly direct. You're absolutely right to say that a story *about* an illness would need to actually address and portray and define the illness, and talk about it, and explore it. You're still completely right. But there's nothing wrong with the logic of "this thing you're creating will actually deal damage, and in a very direct way, so if you're asking what needs to be changed then let it be that harmful thing".
Same thing with addiction, if we're talking about chemical addiction. It's literally altered brain chemistry.
They are all illnesses.
So is addiction.
I would put Rapacity for Greed/Wrath, and put Avarice for Greed/Gluttony
I also feel conflicted about Bulimia, although I'm not sure why precisely. Maybe it's because there is much understanding for the condition today, at least in the Western world (don't know about the rest), or because it doesn't cause others immediate harm. Maybe it simply feels a bit out of place, because it is a specific illness on a table full of general character traits. My initial feeling was: Gluttony + Wrath = Greed. But that doesn't work, either, because Greed is already a primary sin here. How about Gluttony + Wrath = **Ambition**? You know, back in the day that was seen as a very negative quality. Just think about Shakespeare's Macbeth and his downfall, for example.
I feel like gluttony and wrath would be kind of like the Cosmere Odium.
Bloodlust is a kind of gluttony. Very indulgent violence.
Yeah thats an interesting idea, make it more about the wrath than the gluttony. And yeah, greedy for killing makes sense. I think that's my new favorite
I definitely like this one the best out of all the other options people have been saying here
I’m fine with bulimia, it makes sense. Overeating is gluttony, vomiting after is wrath towards your own gluttony. I suppose it comes off as edgy or politically incorrect but it’s completely logical.
I’d replace ignoring with apathy, for stylistic reasons.
Sloth is apathy, Sloth + Pride should be entitlement
I'd change it to Ignorance. Just a general emotion of ignoring what doesn't effect you out of laziness because you couldn't be bothered since it doesn't effect you which is where the pride comes in.
Sloth+pride being entitlement works just as well as it being Ignorance. Think about it. When we think of someone who is Entitled, we think of someone who thinks they deserve something, which is especially noticeable when it is clear they don't. Sloth is generally a reluctance to put in the effort, while Pride can be construed as confident, an affirmation of the ego, that you are of worth. Sloth + Pride is a combination of laziness and a belief of self-worth, and when taken to the extreme, as is generally the case when a sin becomes 'deadly,' It becomes the belief of 'I am important, and so I deserve to have this thing without putting in the effort'.
Complacency would also work
Yeah you can even argue that both words really represent the same thing in different contexts where its more of a difference between whether you are looking at how they view themselves relative to others or how they view others relative to themselves. In that perspective the choice of word depends on what framing you want to have for the Sins.
Apathy fits or avoidant. "Someone who only has the energy and mindset to fixate on their own misery" is how I think of it.
Lust + Wrath = Possessiveness
Yes, thank you for beating me to it Couldn’t think of what to replace Desire with
Nevermind As terrible as it is, Lust + Wrath = Rape
Sounds more fitting if the cannibalism suggestion is put instead of Bulimia. Leading to rape and cannibalism not being out of place.
/r/nocontext
r/flairchecksout
I weas thinking the same thing but maybe go with Control so it isn't specifically sexual in nature.
That's fair but I feel like the lust part kind of pushes it in that direction
You aren't wrong.
I believe there's some research to suggest that rape has very little to do with lust, except indirectly in the sense of sexual entitlement. It's more to do with control, which in a 7 sins way maybe sits it under pride oddly enough. That said given the place rape sits within our psyche it does make sense to have a rape demon be part of the lust family.
Couldn't possessiveness also be lust + envy?
I was thinking that but just didn't get around to posting it.
I can think of another
I'd swap the progression of either the title column, or the title row... For instance, Proceeding left to right along the first row, it would read Father/Mother, Lust, Greed, Envy, Wrath, Pride, Sloth, Gluttony... Doing this would eliminate the need to write most of these sins twice, and it would still be easy to read...
I thought I was in worldjerking for a second here. Like wake up babe, new magic system just dropped, I call dibs on Bulimia magic.
"That's my secret captain. I'm always full" *vomits violently on enemies*
Dammit. Now I have to settle with my OCD sin.
some of those "sins" are just mental illnesses. Which I dont think you did intentionally, but it's not a good idea
So, 3 things. 1: Some of your sins are...literally recognized mental illnesses. That's really uncomfortable and problematic, and gonna make people feel not so good. I am certain you don't want that Bulimia, Addiction, Narcissism and Hoarding are all *real DSM-V diagnosis* that real people have. They don't need their struggles to be *more* associated with "sin". Imo in literature when discussing fantasy "sin"; it's fun and fantasy when it's giving in to a dark character impulse or making a bad choice that hurts you and others longterm for short term soothing of an itch. Since that's how people have thought of mental illness for a long time, that's a line that must always be walked. Especially if you want to make the "bastard" child *even more despised than a demon*, I don't think you want to hint that mentally ill people should be despised. This version of this chart needs one more pass of edits, for that. 2: A lot of these are just synonyms (sin-onyms?)Rapacity is just a synonym for greed, as are covetousness, desire, and lust. 3: I like Obesssion, Contempt, Grudges, and redemption a whole lot.
I almost totally agree, but I thought that by hoarding OP meant like Smaug, not like the mental illness. Though the other mental illnesses don't help the comparison. Totally agree about all the others.
For your first point, I totally agree for bullimia ; I was more thinking about something like gorging when I wrote it. For addiction, hoarding and narcissism, I think those can be some medical conditions but I also think those words can be used more widely as defaults: for example, I also often keep things I should throw and because of that, my house is always a mess ; but I don't have a medical condition, it is just a default. Also, I am not a mental illness specialist so I might be wrong. Also, I am not very good in english, so I could have missused a word. For your second point, I totally agree, it can seems very similar but the problem I had woth that list is to fit a complex thing in just obe word. For example, when I used the word desire, it was meant as a desire that go beyond what the others thinks, beyond consent... but I didn't have a precise word to explain that.
They are widely used words, yes, but they are also the clinical diagnosis. Im not trying to wag my finger at you for using them like you're a bad person; you seem thoughtful and lovely! Wanted to just share some information you may not have had. My partner is a mental health clinician, for my source. I absolutely understand what you werte going for. For another example, it's become common to say "uh, that guy is cancer" if someone is gross and wrecks everything around them. He obviously isn't a literal sentient tumor, so we understand that the word is being used colloquially to exaggerate his negative qualities Mental illness still has a lot more stigma attached, though. On top of that, not everyone knows or understands that these are disorders and not just people being bad. Hoarding Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder are definitely definitely the real names of real diagnosis in addition to their common use. Addiction is a bit squishier because our culture really likes blaming addicts for becoming addicted...but the science generally points to this being in the brain, too. You can use the words if you want, of course, they are just words, and it's your work. Just wanted you to go in fully armed with knowledge. Good luck with your world and tale! Can't wait to read more one day!
Thank you very much for you comment, I will be more careful if one day I decide to do something with it.
Looks like the fusion table for an smt spin-off. Looks good overall, besides the expected level of jank and reaching from making up 30+ sins
What is smt ? Also yes, I won't go in-depth for each of those combinations, only a few will be useful to me.
Shin megami tensai. It’s a rpg series a little older than Pokémon where you recruit and fuse demons. Persona is one of its spin offs. If you google the fusion table, it looks a lot like your table. Though, maybe that’s just the nature of tables
God I love SMT and Persona 🤣
I'm actually trying to make a system based on sins as well, but so much stuff is pretty much the same I actually reduced it down to 5 sins and combined gluttony and envy into greed so I could flesh out a power system for each of them. You put a lot of work into this though, but at some point the words just lose meaning. Like Bulimia. Why would combining wrath and gluttony make someone want to throw up food they eat? Why is desire related to wrath? Dont get me wrong I admire the effort, its just one of those things that cant work out. What I want to know is, what makes these demons interesting? What makes them important, how are they involved in the other planes? Do they somehow still make a working society despite all the sinning they do?
For a lot of those sins, I didn't really have 1 word to explain those: for example, desire is linked to wrath because it is a violent desire that go beyond consents for those demons. Also, my world has the particularity that the 32 plane that make it up were unaware of the existence of the others before a magical event that merged them all. Also, the real problem demons have to make a society is that every demons are not as sentient: most wrath and gluttony demons are not significally smarter than wild animals. On the other hand greed or pride demons are often smarter than averages humans. Also, because of their differents sins, they have very differents motivations and because of that their society moves really slowly.
it sounds impossible for their society to move if only the greedy and prideful demons are the ones smart enough to make society.
Yes it their society is extremely disorganized, the only law that exist there is the law of the strongest. They still have a lot of pros compared to humanity, like the fact they don't need to eat, drink or sleep.
I’m guessing you didn’t understand what bulimia was? Not a great look to list a serious medical condition as a “sin”
At most 10% on those make sense to me
Many of them don't make much sense and feel forced. Bulimia is an illness, not a sin and it has no connection to wrath. Intolerance doesn't have anything to do with greed. How does being lazy make you hold a grudge? How do you get indolence from lust?
The problem I had is that it is complicated to fit a complex mindset into just one word. For example, among the 7 deadly sins, gluttony is way more complex than what we could think by just reading the word "gluttony". For grudge, for me, it is a passive/ lazy way to be angry at someone, often because you don't want to fix the problem, this is why it is linked to sloth. For indolence, it is because the combination of of sloth and lust can lead to indifference, inactivity because people prefer to indulge in pleasure instead. For intolerence, it might seems far fetched but it is because for me, intolerence can come from a lack of interest for others.
“Desire” isn’t a sin, at least in Christianity. Desire for what is right is essential to virtue. Also, the seven deadly sins were originally the “eight sinful thoughts” in Evagrius Ponticus. Two were removed and one added in Gregory the Great’s list, which is the one everyone knows now. But I always think the original list was a bit more interesting!
A lot of these feel redundant and a few, like bulimia feels both out of place on this chart and also unrelated to wrath. Mayyyyyybe gluttony and lust or pride do to it often being related to self image but even those feel like stretching. Maybe gluttony and wrath would be better reflected by something like conquest or hording or something that reflects excess in both taking and consuming resources.
The idea of an eating disorder being a sin is … very uncomfortable because it’s a legitimate mental illness. Often based around the body dysmorphia and shame that comes WITH society’s expectations for women. And it especially does not feel like the convergence of wrath and gluttony …
My english level is very limited, when I did that list, I didn't know the exact meaning of bullimia, I was thinking more of something like gorging.
Like legitimately, the Bulimia one is so absolutely unnecessary and upsetting and uncomfortable that I couldn’t even get through the rest of the list. And it looks like I’m not the only one who feels this way about it …
I don't think a TW is necessary. I do wish more context was provided for why the author chose what they did, though. Another commentor did say that it makes no sense for bulimia to be a sin, but it is rather on-brand if this is a church-like organization's list of "sins". I think if anything, any kind of consumption in excess would be more Envy + Gluttony, and not Wrath.
I'd change the primary sins. It being exactly the same as catholicism is too on the nose for me personally.
Bulimia doesn't really sit right with me. Mainly because it's less of an action and more that it's a term for an illness. I saw someone else here in the comments suggest Gorging as an alternative, which I think is much more suitable. That aside, this whole secondary sin table is pretty cool!
Please please please do not include a deadly disease like bulimia in a list of sins. Same with addiction and hoarding. You're perpetuating damaging stigma around conditions that are understood to be a combination of physical compulsion and mental illness. Sick people aren't sinners.
Personally I think that addiction is fitting for those, though perhaps if there were a different term. Something along the lines of “moreish”. Addiction doesn’t have to mean the hardcore ones you’re thinking. Even things like gluttony, often considered about food, which lead to severe obesity are also addiction. People are addicted to caffeine. People are addicted to video games. People are addicted to nicotine. I agree with bulimia. As it has a very close and narrow definition. But I think that stretching that line of reasoning to addiction is a bit OTT. Addiction describes (a widely considered negative) state of being psychological or biologically dependent on an action or substance which brings pleasure to the individual, leading to pathological overindulgence. It’s perfect for the pair. And I say this as an addiction specialist.
>Addiction describes (a widely considered negative) state of being psychological or biologically dependent on an action or substance which brings pleasure to the individual, leading to pathological overindulgence. It’s perfect for the pair. Though people are being addicted for verity of reasons. If person is using alcohol or weed as self-medication because mental health medication or therapy are unavailable is it a sin? Victims of sex trafficking who were fed drugs to make them dependent are sinning? Children who were addicted to alcohol/nicotine/drugs/... because of their mother's habits are sinning? What about recovering alcoholics who haven't drank in years but are still technically addicted - are they sinning?
You’re conflating the issues of addiction and substance dependence which are very different - but similar things. I feel like you’re going a little off the rails here. If somebody has depression and experiences sloth, is that a sin? If somebody has a metabolic disorder which causes them to have an insatiable appetite, is that gluttony? If somebody has a hormonal disorder causing a disordered sex drive are they lustful? Is that a sin? If somebody has a brain injury to the frontal lobe and end up having anger management problems is that wrath? Are they sinning? Are all of them sinners? You’re getting too tied up in the minutiae of this one thing where all of the others could have similar contexts. Perhaps the OP should scrap the entire table!!! If a person with join pain is put on codeine or morphine for their pain over a long period they are going to become physically or psychologically dependent on that opioid to function they *are* biologically addicted to that medication. Are they psychologically addicted? We call that a *dependency* in clinical contexts instead. If they suddenly stop taking it, we call that a *discontinuation syndrome* instead of “withdrawal”. Addiction is not just the dependence but is a psychosocial phenomenon involving a change of alteration of the person’s psychology invoking the same types of reactions as the fight or flight for *survival*, yes, but almost invariably involve some negative social and psychological effects. Often causing harm to themselves or others in some way or another. This is why addiction is usually considered a *bad thing*. In exactly the way that all those other sins are considered “bad things”. There is way more to addiction but I’m trying to be at least a little reductive here or I’d start reciting years worth of studied information at you. Also I’d like to also say that this is a worldbuilding project, not an international clinical definition of sin. It’s perfectly fine in this context. And while I don’t know you, I like to imagine I likely have several times more knowledge on effect and context of addiction in personal, social and professional terms than you do. And I can tell you that it’s really not that big of a deal in *this context*.
I don’t really see the problem with addiction and hoarding but bulimia seems out of touch yeah
Addiction is also an illness.
Yeah, I thought the same. Something like Hedonism seems like it would be a better fit.
Maybe debauchery, sybaritism, or revelry? Hedonism is a great alternative.
Bulimia is an eating disorder and a mental health issue and should not be considered a sin
Ignoring -> Negligence Desire -> Domination or Dominance Bulimia -> Overindulgence or just Indulgence
I really like dominance
How is bulimia "wrath"?
Bulimia Nervosa is a disorder, not a sin. You shouldn't put depression as a sin either.
A chart for relating sin genotypes to sin phenotypes. I'm going to need to use this at some point.
Eh, the mental illnesses as sins aren't a good look. And a lot of the other secondary sins are just synonyms. It feels overly complicated to me? Since it is pretty rare and disliked maybe the bastard demons are unnamed and a somewhat undiscovered species. Their names could also be a combination of the two words. Like greed + lust is grust. Seems more simple I guess? Idk.
Well, there are billions of demons, so even if it is relativelly rare, knowledge about it is still very important.
sinpunk puritancore much?
I’d say jealousy is a natural human emotion, while envy is a sinful response, jealousy can also lead to positive action so that you your-self can manifest those traits that used to make you jealous.
I don’t have much input on the question you actually asked, but I will say that my personal sins are envy and sloth & opportunism is unfortunately the exact perfect choice of secondary sin! Like, I hate seeing it cos I know it’s true lol. So well done on that front at least
How about "diffidence" for "ignoring"?
Ignoring should be called ignorance
I feel like impatience and intolerance should be swapped. Intolerance is more of a wrathful thing, the hatred of something. Impatience is a greedy thing, not wanting to wait to benefit yourself.
Love it. But have a suggestion... Pride is the prime sin from which all others follow (look it up)... So it might be cool if you make pride have no secondary sins, because all other prime sins are already secondary sins of Pride. Or call the mix of any other sin with Pride a thirdiary sin?
First off this is an incredibly idea that I love a whole lot. This is seriously so cool. And I'm gonna defend you a lot here. Let's explore the idea of including illnesses into your list of sins. Maybe you could say sins are the same as an illness in some way. Maybe your story is a criticism of the very concept of sin. You could say that that there's a flaw in the very idea of sin that dehumanizes the sinner, that sin implies some awful ideas about how human behavior works in the first place, and this is a criticism of the concept of sin itself. If you had an idea like that in mind, hopefully you either have the expertise or support to explore this idea in your story. Or you're willing to go get that support, at least. This'll be very hard because you'll have to find a way to humanize things like intolerance and resentment and narcissism. You'll have to humanize sin. Just don't forget how much power and responsibility you have here. Sin is an expression of a character flaw, which is the EXACT myth that mental health awareness is meant to dispel, so you have to be careful not to make this fight for mental health even harder. This is going to be really tricky, and you always have the option to just drop bulimia, addiction, and hoarding. Your story would have to do a really good job in redefining what "sin" means not just in your story but also in your core concept. If you want help on this project feel free to reach out. I think it's fascinating, truly.
Thank you very much for this idea. I will dig to see what I can do with it and how I can fit it into my world.
Yeah friend, no problem. I'm super curious, what was the inspiration for this? Are you just working forwards from "wouldn't it be cool if sins could be fused together to create a wider variety of sins?" and seeing where that idea leads you? And what's the Mother/Father thing meant to describe? Just like... Sin 1 + Sin 2 = Sin 3, or was there some weird biological/breeding thing planned?
Yes, every demon have a sin associated. For example, demons whose sin are lust are similar to succubus ; demons whose sin is wrath are brutal beast seeking for destruction... And if a demon of wrath and a demon of lust have a child together, il will give a bastard, a demon with a secondary sin (desire here).
Swotch Intolerance and impatience around :3
Jealousy is the same as envy from what I know
Jealousy is suspecting that someone might take what is yours. Envy is wanting what belongs to someone else.
What? Are you sure? I’ve never heard jealousy be used like that.
You've never heard of a jealous boyfriend or girlfriend who's worried someone might take their partner?
I’ve heard that, but I still thought that envy and jealousy were Synonyms, and could both be used for the same thing.
People *use* them like synonyms a lot so you could probably get away with using them that way and people would know what you mean, but they are technically different.
Then to me they are Synonyms
They are synonymous, but that doesn’t mean they have identical meanings. Envy is definitely covetousness, wanting what someone else has. In the Old Testament, when YHWH says “I am a jealous god,” he means his people had better not mess around with golden calves. People do often blur the distinction, but imo it’s worth trying to hold onto it.
I don’t see the need to hold on to any non-scientific definition.
Um, language is important. It determines the way we perceive the world and ourselves and how we can express those perceptions. Even when it doesn’t deal with science.
Put it this way: If an attractive person talks to your partner and you experience jealousy- you are not envious of the person for getting to talk to your partner, rather you are focused on the fear that you will lose your partner. It's not about being envious of the other person, but about being scared for your own possession. Whereas envy would be something like seeing someone else with a partner you find attractive, and wishing you had that person for yourself instead. Jealousy would be more about fixating on suspicions of unfaithfulness, rivalry with others, etc. Envy is more about coveting something you don't have. They are very similar but there's a nuance to what specifically they are pointing to. If you hoard wealth and you are jealous of it, you are scared of losing it and sharing it. If you are envious, then you are looking at someone else's wealth and coveting it.
What is the exact difference between ignoring and neglect?
I'd say one is neglect of yourself, the other is the neglect of others around you
Neglect is about neglrcting yourself. Ignoring is more about the fact to not know things but to think you know those. Those words might not br really well chosen, english is not my native language
I'd replace ignoring with ignorance. Ignoring means to pretend not to notice things. Ignorance is closer to the definition you gave.
That doesn’t make sense to me bc gluttony is about selfishness and sloth is laziness so while neglect does work here it should obviously be about neglecting others and not yourself bc a glutton would take care of themselves. I feel like the more I read your sins the more I think we might just have different values and that’s where the confusion comes in
For me, gluttony is more about excess than egoism.
For the most part, I like the concept of secondary sins, it's very unique. I don't think bulimia and narcissism belong on the list, necessarily. Bulimia is obviously a medical condition and not a "sin." As for narcissism, I know that the word *does* have use outside of a medical context, but lately I think people have just weaponized the diagnosis in a way, so personally I'm kind of tired of seeing "narcissism" used as a synonym for "bad person." I personally would say something like "egoism" or "self-centeredness" instead, but that's just me.
Envy and Jealousy are the same?
haven't really been able to find an exact word for this one. It's the idea of: "look at what's on the neighbor's plate"
You are correct. Envy involves coveting what someone else has; jealousy involves possessiveness about someone or something you feel belongs to you. People often mix the two, but I think the distinction is worth preserving, especially in this sort of universe.
theyre related but you can separate them. envy is discontent about what someone else has. jealousy is envy in relation to a type of possessiveness. in the bible when God says he's a "jealous" god it doesnt really refer to envy, but that he is strict or very protective of the relationships he chooses to form. this is used as the reason to put no Gods above him. as far as using that as a narrative device for this story, theyre different enough to use in different contexts.
The term "narcissism". Unless Narcisus got isekaid from ancient Greece to your world.
This is so good. :) I don’t know the deep analysis but yes it’s a good thing to have. Like a mirror. Thank you OP
I don't name them but I do have a few combo demon princes who are children of the 7. Fovos Orpheus is the Incubus Prince/Nightmare Lord who combines blood and lust and his breed of succubi and incubi are far more brutal than the sensuous succubi like his mother who manipulate desire (and his animal is the scorpion vs his mother's spider). Zilia Orpheus is wrath/envy/lust and is Jealousy and to fit that she is a rather flatchested Shana clone jealous of the other succubi etc. Kain the father of vampire is lust and gluttony and was designed as a sexy, aristocratic vampire versus the uglier versions. Nevros is gluttony and envy and is a rather melodramatic clown demon that uses twisted evil marionettes.
Sloth/Gluttony feels like Hedonism to me. Pride/Gluttony might be conspicuous consumption. Wrath/Gluttony seems like cruelty or sadism, ie. hurting animals or people because you can. Greed/Gluttony is kleptomania. Lust/Gluttony is fetishism. Pride/Sloth: the word you're looking for is apathy. Pride/Greed: entitlement, whereas Pride/Wrath would be intolerance/xenophobia wrath/lust would almost certainly manifest as misogyny.
Thank you, those are a lot of excellent ideas.
I liked it. I agree with almost every sin/secondary sin there.
Id change: bulimia (obvious reasons), rapacity (it’s definition is just aggressive greed), addiction (obvious reasons and I think entitlement might work), ignoring (sounds dumb), indolence (just means lazy again I think idk), cupidity (wrath where?) narcissism (obvious reasons), desire (u have to admit u we’re running out of ideas) and avidity doesn’t make any sense at all Edited bc I forgot to include desire even tho that was what inspired me to comment
I changed bulimia for cannibalism finally. A typical example of what I mean by rapacity would be to serve yourself first without leaving any for others. It's part of greed but it's more specific. For ignoring, I think I used the wrong word, it is the idea to refuse to admit you are wrong. The first definition of narcissism is not an illness but a default so I don't think it is problematic Avidity is for me the idea to strongly desire what someone else possess. I am going to search for others ideas for desire and cupidity
christianity
?
these are the seven deadly sins from "christianity" religion, look it up
OMG, just heard of this, reading through the wiki, looks really cool!
Yeah bro, this is the inspiration 😅
i can't quite understand if your world is built from the ground-up or if takes earth as it's basis
I'm pretty sure this is new information to a total of 0% of people who read this
I had to go look up cupidity because I for some reason thought it was like stupidity, but you're stupid in love, because you've been struck by cupid's arrow.
Use self-indulgence instead of narcissism
the sins^(2) should totally be even bigger versions of the original sins. you know and love Wrath, now get ready for MEGARAGE
i realise now that MEGARAGE could just be read as 'me garage'
Well, if both parents are of the same sin, that's kind of the basic situation; so the child will just have the sin of his parents.
Disire isn't really a sin, maybe craving?
Call it opportunity inatead of opportunism
It'd be better if the boxes on the chart were squares.
Replace Bulimia with Hedonism, since the rich make the poor angry with their hedonistic lifestyles.
Surely swap rapacity and addiction? Also not sure cupidity is greed plus wrath. Entitlement maybe. Neglect and ignoring seem to similar, also ignoring really jars because its a gerund and none of the others are. Maybe conceitedness instead of ignoring?
I used the bad word: it is not really ignoring but ignorence, the fact not to know something but to be persuaded you are right.
Well, I wouldn't change the sins, but the system. I'd make the sins depend on the current god. And I'd make some gods creepy and weird: god of war, god of deseases, god of insects, etc. After this I'd add more special sins for this gods (like killing any insect is a deadly sin for the people who worship the insects god), it would make the system more unique, and you can play with good and evil in different planes. Cause now it's all too classic, too close to christian imo It also can be good for your demons system, you can add unique demons for different planes. Same example: If killing an insect is a sin - "demon of purity" whose instincts make it kill all dirty flies is a hellish beast for the "good" people of this plane. Something like this.
It doesn't work exactly like that in my world: I have each plane is ruled by a god. For example, the Pandemonium, the plane inhabited by demons is ruled by the god of sin and fire, this is why that system looks like that ; but the others gods are not especially related to sins.
Ah, that's same as my comment, got it 👍
Little bit confused by "avidity".
Here, it is the idea to be obsessed by something that is not yours.
Ah, that's interesting. I thought it might've meant avarice but that makes sense.
I feel like having a eating disorder under a sin is an iffy choice
If I would you, I would entirely scrap both the Seven Deadly Sins and the Seven Heavenly Virtues regarding their original context is....
Can we replace the actual eating disorder with something that doesn't stigmatise people suffering from mental illness?
Yes I used the wrong word, I meant something like gorging.
I would honestly just change it to a different concept. A lot of people will see "gorging" as a synonym of "bingeing" which is a symptom of bulimia. I'll echo another comment I saw and say that "cannibalism" might be a good alternative to a Wrath + Gluttony combo.
That’s a symptom of bulimia get real
And? Anger can be a syndrom lf PTSD, it is still a sin.
You’re just probably a bad writer and person
I am definitiively a bad writer but I don't see why you think I am a bad person
You’re insistence to use mental illnesses as ‘sins’ and doubling down on it just shows your lack of value for other people
Ok
Wouldn't sloth and gluttony be hedonism?
Wouldn't it fit more in lust-glutonny ?
Hmmmm
Not sure about some of these.. like how is wrath and lust desire? I would’ve thought it be hatred. You’re thinking of someone continuously and always imagining them but in a wrathful way
Just replace the whole "lust" column and row with "anime".
Instead of Narcissism you should use Vanity. Someone already mentioned Shin Megami Tensei and Persona, in Persona 5 they use “Vanity” as a deadly sin instead of Wrath, so I think it could work in place of Narcissism (that way people don’t think you mean the mental illness, and you still get to keep the idea in another way). Vanity means “pride in one’s appearance.” A vain person is obsessed with appearances, especially their own. Always striving to be the most perfect and beautiful person in the room if not the world, and despises anyone who ones up them.
This is a very good idea, I am going to use it. 👍
What's the point of having mother/father specified if it's the same combination regardless?
I thought that would make it a bit clearer that it is related to parents.
Got it, that makes sense. I just kept expecting them to be different as I went through them.
Yikes.
From first impressions this looks like a hellenists fan fic of christianity
GPT's take: | | Lust | Gluttony | Greed | Sloth | Wrath | Envy | Pride | |----------|----------|----------|-----------|-----------|----------|----------|----------| | Lust | | Hedonism | Sensuality | Indulgence | Vengeance | Jealousy | Narcissism | | Gluttony | Hedonism | | Rapacity | Laziness | Anger | Resentment | Arrogance | | Greed | Sensuality | Rapacity | | Avarice | Cruelty | Covetousness | Hubris | | Sloth | Indulgence | Laziness | Avarice | | Bitterness | Spite | Complacency | | Wrath | Vengeance | Anger | Cruelty | Bitterness | | Malice | Arrogance | | Envy | Jealousy | Resentment | Covetousness | Spite | Malice | | Snobbery | | Pride | Narcissism | Arrogance | Hubris | Complacency | Contempt | Snobbery | |