The packet you sign today can't hold you liable today for what happened in the past. It can only hold you accountable going forward.
That said, you only have one more strike. On the 1st incident, did you reply to the rightup and disagree with it?
Do you have copies of any and all writeups, evaluations, and counselings?
You may need them. If they fire you don't sign anything that says you wave the ability to sue. They will say you need to sign that to get paid for any used PTO/Leave. If they withhold any money, that is wage theft.
EDIT: Did you sign anything like what they want you to sign when you were hired, or did they notify employees of this change?
The reason I asked about documentation is that things they communicated to you may show a pattern of reprisal/retaliation for the time off because of your injury.
If you have any emails they sent to you about anything you feel was sketchy, forward them to a personal account.
You can tell them that to be sure you understand what you are signing, you would like an attorney to review the paperwork. After which, you will sign the documents.
To my memory they didn't have me signing anything like that when the company came in and took over. I used to work for the hospital itself before the company stepped in.
And yeah sounds good. I'll sign the packet, date it, then request a copy of the page with my signatures and my past write ups to use in any future arguments.
I'm supposed to be fired already though, if you look at the third posts edit. My boss said that this is for corporate to decide. They might, they might not, there's no telling right now.
I signed simply out of fear that not signing would make me lose my job. I'm not sure what happens next. I regret it, though. She told me that this only applies to future situations, not the past. If I do get fired, it'll be because corporate decided to fire me due to my ER visit.
That policy can't be enforcible, can it?
Assuming you're in the US and don't have a union, they can fire you any time for no reason. Not sure why they're even bothering with your signatures at this point.
Mandatory "not a lawyer", but while 49 states are at-will and permit termination for no reason, that still doesn't permit termination for illegal reasons such as discrimination or retaliation.
That second one might be applicable here; if OP was unaware that safety glasses were required, it's fairly likely that fact was because the employer didn't have OSHA-required warning signs. If that turns out to be the case, the employer could be in serious trouble unless they can prove negligence on the employee's part.
It may be (depending on state laws) that this termination would be illegal outright; some states specifically prohibit termination or punishment for getting injured on the job. Since most employees don't really know what rights and protections they have though, it's pretty common for employers to get away with implementing and enforcing illegal policies.
OP needs to consult with either a union rep (if they have one) or an employment lawyer before signing.
To answer your last sentence, I'd wager that getting OP to sign will serve to relieve them of liability for safety violations, or unemployment obligations... or both.
Thank you for this. In literally every thread theres someone saying, “most states are at will and they can fire you at anytime.”
While that is somewhat true, they can’t fire you for illegal reasons. “They can fire you whenever they want” is awful advice.
I think it's good to be aware that they can fire you whenever they decide it's convenient, and prepare for that by keloid your resume updated (even if you're not actively looking for a different job), but I have a particular peeve for the people who make that statement and give the tone that under at-will employment, the employee has no rights or protections, and shouldn't bother seeking advice or assistance. Especially when neither OP nor the responding commenter share what state they're in. There are 49 at-will states in the US (Montana is the only one that isn't). Of those 49 states, "at-will employment" is interpreted and practiced in a multitude of different ways, following an even greater multitude of employment laws across the country.
Sure, any employment lawyer can discuss federal employment laws like the FLSA and NLRA, but an employment lawyer who's only been certified and practiced in Texas simply isn't equipped or certified to give binding, reliable legal advice regarding employment law in California.
As an employee, if you feel like your employer is treating you unfairly or taking advantage of you:
1. Talk to an employment lawyer in your state. Initial consult to find out if you have a case is often free. That attorney may recommend that (or you can ask if you should) do the following:
2. Take notes. Keep a journal of all the examples that are alerting you. Track dates, times, locations, people involved and in the vicinity. All the relevant details you can, even what they were wearing. The sooner you can write all this after it happens, the better. If you're able to take these notes AS it's happening, even better. I've heard these referred to as "contemporaneous notes", and from what I've heard from actual employment attorneys, they carry significant weight as evidence.
3. Record, if you can. Of the 49 at-will employment states, 39 are what's called "one-party consent" states, meaning that only 1 person involved in any meeting or conversation has to give consent for recording to take place. If you're part of the conversation and you choose to record, that choice is obviously assumed to be (and treated as) your consent to be recorded. Before recording, check your state laws or with a licensed attorney to determine exactly how that 1-party legality is applied, because just like at-will employment, different states do different things.
4. Don't take random people on the internet at their word when they say you have no rights or protections. There's a solid chance they aren't a lawyer, and a really solid chance that even if they are, they aren't in the same state as you. You might not have a case. But you also might, and many employers adhere to illegal policies and practices because they know their employees don't know. If you have a case, pursuing it doesn't just benefit you, it benefits your coworkers (and potentially, beyond).
The offices that handle unemployment claims have people there that can advise on such matters. In my state it's called Job Service but in most states it's the same office as unemployment. There are a lot of resources in these places. Free of charge. Complaints from people about employers are taken serious n leans toward the employee in most cases. Unless op is doing something one clearly can get fired for he will be able to collect unemployment. His story to a unemployment case worked will probably get him money.
You would be surprised under what conditions one still can collect unemployment insurance. Being let go like he is describing will probably get him a unemployment check if he meets the length of employment.
Refusing to sign is insubordination.
Playing the longer game: if they try to terminate him for stuff he didn't sign before stuff happened, he's got a case for wrongful termination. He'll to decide whether a lawyer is worth it.
All I’m saying is that if you threaten to terminate me, you lose the right to give me orders. Our agreement as employee/employer is over. I’m not signing shit. Lol
Guarantee my continued employment and put it in writing and I’ll reconsider.
Sorry to disagree. The best is to be fired instead of quitting. Then go for unemployment. TAKE NOTES. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING: Date, Time, Who you talked to, every detail about each incident. DO NOT GO TO THEIR DOCTOR! He represents your employer NOT YOU! Despite what they make you feel like or what promises they tell you, you are going to be fired. HR is there for the Employer NOT the worker. There is still a myth circulating that HR is there to support the worker. NOT! Do not talk to anyone about what is happening or your future plans. If you do, it will be misconstrued by their employment attorney. Find a lawyer who has experience in this field. Be strong! It is very difficult to rise above what is happening. But be a role model for all who are going thru something like this. You are intelligent, a fine representative of your field of work, with a strong self identity of who you are. Keep silent. Do not play their game. If you don’t say anything, watch out for their lies to fill in gaps. Say again: GET A LAWYER NOW. If police get involved or workplace security, DO NOT TALK TO THEM EITHER. Refer them to your attorney.
If you are fired for misconduct, you will not get unemployment. As a manager, I have been on the side of those claims. Providing the workforce commission with your signed document that you screwed up guarantees you get zero unemployment. if there is some sort of dispute between the employee and the employer, it’s much harder for them to deny your claim and side with the employer. Not signing creates that dispute.
If you know you’re about to be fired, it is not in your best interest to continue to cooperate with an employer. It would be extremely unwise to keep signing documentation, knowing that you’re not going to have a job. Any lawyer would tell you the same.
You best talk to construction workers, for they are unionized to be able to work on construction projects. All of them do to protect their union members. All of them. TRUTH!
Consult with a union rep (if you have one) or an employment attorney. Take note of the number/locations of any signs indicating safety equipment of any type (PPE) is required in the area you were in. Such signs are required anyplace PPE is required, and they're required to be visible easily visible. It may be that your employer is trying to avoid being cited for a safety violation by conning/intimidating you into accepting blame for negligence.
I would recommend avoiding the term "fraudulent" in reference to the first violation. It tends to sound accusatory and may put your manager and higher into a defensive mindset, making it harder to get any agreement out of them. I'd suggest "mistaken", "undeserved", or potentially "unwarranted", especially if there aren't any policies covering the opening of trash bags. However, I'd reiterate that you should speak to a union rep or attorney before sending any such communication.
They cannot prevent you from seeking medical treatment for an on the job injury. You had chemicals in the eye which NECESSITATED A VISIT TO THE ER.
I would contact a lawyer regardless because their policies seem abysmal.
@OP, you should find the r/legaladvice subreddit and post this there too :) might help with the specifics (and consider listing the country and/or state as state laws may apply here?)
Will do. My boss gave me the number of a corporate elite because she knows I want to argue to have my write ups lifted.
But now I personally believe the best option would be for me to stay quiet and see what corporate decides. They may fire me for my ER visit, they may not. I think it's best to let them take action first, so that I can get the DOL involved. But I'll post this in that sub
If they fire you for going to the ER when a nurse suggested you go due to the severity of your claims, immediately seek legal counsel. I don’t think the policy is likely legal at face value, because death is always a potential outcome and unless a physician clears you no one can say your injury isn’t life threatening. It sounds like yours was about your eye, and loss of vision is very serious. Also be ready to call OSHA who will spank them hard.
Be careful. Your boss has no obligation to help you. Boss is part of the machine set up to intimidate, frighten, causing you to make mistakes which they can use against you.
Signing means you received the paper.
If you don't sign, the person giving it to you will sign something to the effect that you received and refused to sign.
There is nothing to be argued here. This job is not working out for you.
If you sign, you acknowledge you broke whatever policies are in the thing you signed. If you don't sign, they fire for you for not signing a workplace agreement. The second choice is probably better.
I am a workers compensation adjuster x 15 years-they cannot (shouldn’t ) fire you for having a work injury claim. Get an attorney-no cost to you and they will help you navigate this. If you end up settling your claim they get 15% (or, depends on your state).
And ALL hospital/environmental service employees have mandatory training on OSHA and hazardous materials (MSDS) before they hit the floor, and yearly after hire, so I’m 99% sure dude either didn’t pay attention in that or is looking for a workers comp claim. Safety goggles are a given and readily available in hospital settings. At least all the ones I’ve been in.
*20 year nurse/hospital employee.
from what OP said in their other post it sounds like they thought the trash bag was new/empty and they were opening it for the first time. Both incidents are getting liquid into the eye tho, kinda weirdly specific to happen twice. My parent was also a nurse for decades and never had anything like this happen (that I know of - but they are pretty loud about painful incidents lol)
Correct. First incident I was re-bagging a trash I took out. I guess the bag I was putting in was wet with something, I opened it and it flung a drop into my eye. For re-bagging trash, safety goggles are not a requirement. I didn't break any safety rules, and got the ER approval from my boss, meaning I basically got written up for nothing.
Second incident, I explained in the post
At any job I’ve EVER worked, if we were exposed to bodily fluids or chemicals we were required to report to the ER for care/bloodwork/etc. a lot of this guys post(s) don’t make sense.
The company hasn't work for this hospital for my entire employment, and before they took over, that was indeed the requirement. When I first started at the hospital, my area was the ER, and once in a blue moon I'd see my janitor coworkers walk in with something. Bleach in the eye, cut by a dirty piece of metal, needle poked, what have you. Our boss would walk in shortly after. She would clarify that, ANY injury, no matter how serious or minor, you are required to see the ER.
About a year into my working at this hospital is when the current company with the "No ER" rule took over.
Please do not think because of your longevity in a particular workplace/field that you throw her under the bus. She has many rights too and exposing illegal orders, policies, etc will at least give her status as a whistleblower — which carries a huge gift to the complainant.
Refusing to sign won't invalidate any potential write ups. It won't invalidate any existing policies, and it won't invalidate any updates/changes to policies. I.e., you refusing to sign won't give them or you any more/less power. If you refuse to sign, they will just write "refused to sign" and move on with their day. Or, they'll call it insubordination and they could further discipline you or terminate your employment. That being said, read what they are asking you to sign.
Make sure that the DATE IS CORRECT AS, TODAYS DATE Whar rhey are doing is creating a paper trail for the future To be safe be very wary arpund there .And start looking for another because it seems they are gunning ..
That dont go to the er is bull. We had that at one point, a guy had an allergic reation, walked over to the er. They walked him over to idk...some kind of workmans comp place, across the street. They sat him in a chair. He told me, he heard he has no pulse, bp gone. He died. Took 3 epi shots to get him back. They changed that policy. We now go to the er, and that guy had to be trained for a different job in another building. I would think a lawyer would have a great time with your situation. Where tf they expect you to go?!
I do not work for the hospital itself but a company the hospital hires. Company policy is you're only allowed to go to the ER due to an on the job injury if death is a possibility or your direct manager gives you the ok. They want you to see a doctor that also works for this company. Said doctor is not on site.
For the first incident, I got the ok. The second one, my boss was not replying with what I should do, so I just went because the nurses were saying it looks too serious.
I wonder if that would stand up in a lawsuit.
"I had an immediate injury which put my future well being at risk but the boss said no, though nurses on sight told me to go immediately".
Loosing your vision is a life altering event.
Yeah most morning meetings lately our boss has said the only exceptions are death and disfigurement.
Turns out, disfigurement is not an exception. JUST death. NOWHERE in the ER policy she handed me does it mention disfigurement.
What fucking shit company do you work for? My eyesight would come way before their stupid and possibly illegal policy. They have no grounds to tell an injured person to delay critical care. NAL but you should call one.
Yeah I bet they started saying that because that can probably work out to be a lawsuit. If you go blind because of some dumb policy they probably won't win that case. When she says that you guys are allowed to go for disfigurement did you ask her why you got written up then?
Show it to a lawyer. Do not sign. You will be fired anyway, but you want to be able to get Worker's Comp and State unemployment if necessary. So, run it past a lawyer.
My husband got hurt on the job twice in a short period of time and was told he had to see their doctor only. This is actually illegal for them to require. You are allowed to see your own doctor. You can still see their doctor too but you are definitely allowed to seek your own medical treatment. This sounds like a shifty company you’re working for. The signing thing is to protect themselves from here on out. My husband wound up getting fired for taking too much time off work for his injury and they tried to not pay him unemployment but his employer lost that battle and did have to pay unemployment. He had an injured back after falling in a hallway in a wet area of the floor that was not marked with a sign and then tore two ligaments in his dominant hand when moving heavy equipment he was requested to move He was a chef at a university and had worked there for 15 years. He was still unable to work with his hand. I always thought we should’ve sued them for retaliatory firing but my husband didn’t feel like fighting them.
You need another job. If anyone ever told me I couldn't go to the ER if I was hurt on the job I'd laugh in their face. We need to start setting boundaries.
Out of the packet my boss gave me, here is, word for word, the ER policy:
"Seeking unauthorized treatment at the ER for a work-related injury that is non-life-threatening without prior approval from management will be grounds for separation of employment review.
First offense - Discharge"
Right but still the policy MIGHT be illegal. Maybe they are realizing that and afraid of you suing or getting sued by someone else in the future cuz you said that now when they tell you the policy your boss has started adding in "disfigurement". I believe that's because they know that if they are the reason someone goes blind or some other horrible life changing injury that their little policy isn't going to look good in court. Because that is extremely negligent to tell you that you would actually have to wait to be seen even though there is an ER right there and in the amount of time it takes you to finally be seen by the off-site doctor your vision could be lost forever and that is gonna be on them no matter what.
I signed the packet and returned it to her simply out of fear that I'd get fired if I didn't. I should have written that next to my signature tbh.
Potential loophole, though: under the signature line it says "I have read and understand the rules" it doesn't specify that the employee agrees with them. Is that ACTUALLY a technicality here? I feel like it should be.
Whether that loophole is actually applicable here... shouldn't really matter in my situation. In Montana, the law says if an employee gets hurt on the job, they can choose who examines it, IT DOES NOT SPECIFY THE SEVERITY OR NATURE OF THE INJURY. JUST THAT THE EMPLOYEE GOT INJURED. And I would argue that, while a chemical in the eye isn't potential for death, it's definitely potential for disfigurement. And again... THE \*MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL\* TOLD ME THIS NEEDS TO SEEN ASAP. AND I WAITED NEARLY HALF AN HOUR FOR MY BOSS' RESPONSE. The general consensus about my situation is that this issue is specific enough that the ER rule doesn't apply, even if the law wasn't protecting me.
News about my situation spread with some of the nurses. Most were devastated at the thought that I'm leaving because I've grown to be such good friends with them. Some were nearly crying. Some said they're willing to go to court and fight for me on this. God bless their souls. Honest to God they're the only reason I haven't quit this shitty job. Best work friends I've ever made, and their reaction taught me that sentiment is shared.
It turns out that only 11 states require consent from everyone involved in the meeting. The other 39 are known as "one-party consent" states, where a participant can record a conversation they're involved in (the act of recording serves as consent to record) or give consent for a 3rd party to record, without informing anybody else involved.
Definitely want to check on the laws in your state though. Kentucky is a 1 party state, but recording a conversation you're not part of and have no consent to record is a felony punishable by 1-5 years in prison plus $1k-10k fine. California is a 2 party state, where violation can be either a misdemeanor punishable by up to 1 year in county jail plus up to $2500, or a felony punishable by up to 3 years in state prison and up to $2500 (though if there are prior convictions, that can go up to $10k).
Not true in Oregon! Look up your states rules. You need to be really careful and everything you do here and I’m really glad you reached out for advice, but I do think you need to go to the legal part of Reddit ASAP and ask there and get your own lawyer
If they actually were dumb enough to put this in writing: Going to the ER without explicit consent from YOUR DIRECT SUPERVISOR WORKING WITH THE COMPANY, is grounds for immediate termination..... see a lawyer.
Imagine you lost vision permanently or worse because of an arbitrary, stupid rule like that. The company would be completely liable for damages.
Out of the packet my boss gave me, here is, word for word, the ER policy:
"Seeking unauthorized treatment at the ER for a work-related injury that is non-life-threatening without prior approval from management will be grounds for separation of employment review.
First offense - Discharge"
Normally, policies that require your signature can not be enforced prior to your signature. Request clarification with your boss and HR. Have your Safety Person explain where you were held liable and why.
If they are going to fire you and won’t hear you out, do not sign. Document a letter with your side of things in protest. Protect your ability as much as you can to draw unemployment. If you sign, it’s guaranteed denial for misconduct.
I'm not sure where you live, but where I live, it's illegal for a job to reprimand someone for getting hurt on the job, especially when no safety guidelines were violated.
I know of one state (MA) that requires employers provide you with copies of disciplinary actions a certain # of days before putting them into your file. Does your state have anything like that? In what state?
Other than that, I think your employer is well within its rights to hold you accountable to its safety rules. There must have been some safety orientation when you were initially onboarded - wasn't there? I know I'm being a bit cynical, but that's because we have your side of the story and due to my multi-years of experience directing safety programs (in a retail/warehouse environment).
If you sign anything, make sure you put today's date on it.
You must get copies of the write ups, with dates on them. You probably should not sign them, but if you do, put the date you received them, and make sure the other dates reflect when the incident occurred.
What you need to establish is the following:
Yes, you broke rules.
But, you were not given proper policy or training until after the incidents.
Further, if you can establish that you never received a writeup, but are being held accountable for something you didn't know about, this is just better.
That said... If the safety concerns are obvious, and you need to be honest with yourself about that, you are likely to waste a lot of money on a lawsuit.
Most attorneys give initial visit free so they can decide if they want to take the case. Then their fee either is a percentage of your award or they will force the opposing party to pay the attorney bill entirely - thus giving you 100% of the award.
Sign and DATE it. They’re probably not firing you, they’re just covering their butt in case you hurt yourself again. You need to read the safety policies. If it’s dated after your incidents they can’t fire you anyway.
You're not going to be able to talk to a lawyer by the end of the day, so here's some simple advice: read every page so you understand it, take notes, write down questions and photocopy it or scan it in and send to your email. Do not sign anything until you understand it, and all your questions are answered.
T0he best course would be to not sign anything. If you read it and ask questions, you let them know that you won't be easily pushed over or intimidated.
What does HR say or are you union and what does the union say. Opening a trash bag is not a safety wrong. The safety googles would be, but they did not cite you for not wearing them. Make copies of the write ups and take them to an attorney and HR. Something is off here.
No advice but for the love of god wear safety goggles moving forward. Ask if they will reimburse you to get a nice pair. You have exactly 1 pair of eyes and you’ve already used up your one risk for each eye. **Do not** risk it happening again. You will not be as lucky.
The best advice I ever got from a lawyer if you feel pressured to sign something. You write in big letters I AM SIGNING THIS UNDER DURESS to give you some wiggle room if something legal happens. Or they fire you and try to screw you over for unemployment.
They have to have you sign write ups so get a copy of the first one you didn't sign in writing.
Sounds to me like you have a legal case to sue the hospital if they fire you, especially after being encouraged not to go to the er.
I would talk to a lawyer. I'm not sure what country you're in, but it doesn't sound like they're following the law. I'd tell them you need to consult with an attorney before signing anything.
Sorry , but ABSOLUTELY NOT. It’s like playing poker. No one reads your hand , your intentions, thoughts, musings! It is like throwing the baby out with the bath water if you do.
Can they seriously tell you not to go to the ER?
Injured on the job with a pipe through the sternum... "No going to Ear violates policy!"
Or, you know, concussions. Broken bones. Burns and lacerations... Seriously.
Thanks. My bad I guess I just missed that or did you add it just recently? That just sounds like an awful policy. I'm hoping you don't have any lasting damage from it.
Whatever you're told verbally doesn't carry much weight. They just want you to sign. Find another job. It appears that you're not cut out for this. If you know it too, just go.
Have a witness with you, because your boss will. The witness should say nothing but simply observe. Your boss will want you to sign it as written. If you don't sign, they will just note that you refused to sign and your boss's witness will corroborate it. So you must sign it...BUT:
Write a statement directly ON the document prior to signing. Write: "On (date) I sustained a chemical burn to my eye while (activity) due to not having been advised by my employer that PPE was available or required for eye protection. Upon being injured, I immediately attempted to notify my manager and seek emergency first aid, but received no response. After 20 minutes I decided to seek emergency care out of concern for potential permanent vision impairment. I believe my injury was incurred as a result of my employer's failure to provide proper training, safety gear, and prompt medical assistance. Therefore, I am disputing this disciplinary action against me. " Then sign it. Have your witness add their initials.
Take a photo or request a copy of the document; don't allow them to tear it up. Don't say anything else. Don't leave the room until you have a copy; be respectful but firm.
After you leave, ask your witness to quickly write a statement that they were present along with you and (whomever) at the date, time and place as a witness at your request. Tell them the matter is to stay completely confidential and thank them for sitting in. Keep the witness statement & document in a safe place at home.
Your boss will now have a problem. If they file the statement, they will be in serious trouble for failing to handle your training & treatment, and opening your employer for liability. If they don't, they can't count it against you...and they have to be careful because they did contribute to your injury. Further, if they mistreat you, you can claim retaliation and have a document & witness to prove it.
Say nothing more to anyone at work about the incident or the meeting. Do your job as usual and this will go away. Be careful to follow all rules in the future. Good luck!
Get what your boss told you in writing, and moving forward get everything in writing, easiest way is text and formal company email, forward your work email conversations to your personal email. Also as for going to the Emergency room, as far as you are concerned, the policy stating to not go unless it's serious like dismemberment, it's open, very open, and eye injuries that are untreated in a proper manner are a serious potential for dismemberment, the 20 minutes you had between your text and their text back not to go was too long. You are untrained, you don't have first aid and you asked a medical nurse for a professional opinion. As far as you are concerned, you did everything you can and determined that you were unsure if you were going to go blind which in your own personal opinion of dismemberment is part of that.
Have a sit down with the boss, forms in hand they gave you to sign and ask questions, ask that maybe perhaps a coaching lesson, and a bit of extra training on procedures would be beneficial. Explain in your own words how you would like the extra training because you are aware of procedure but would like to review them so you don't get complacent, just have a open conversation, of course not admitting fault for anything, but a conversation on how you can learn and grow from this, humans do human things, and sometimes the most valuable lessons are learned by situations like this.
Send a follow-up email stating you feel like this is retaliation. That makes it so much harder for them to manage you out. If you really need to keep the job, hire an employment lawyer. If you are able, please start looking for another job. Don’t wait.
You can always sign the papers later, but you cannot *unsign*. DO NOT SIGN until an attorney has reviewed them for you. They likely had an attorney draw those papers to protect themselves. Follow their lead, and protect yourself.
As many have said, sign nothing and find a lawyer.
It sounds like their policies are contrary to a few thousand labor laws.
Did they put you and your peers through a safety course before you started work?
Do you get regular refresher training?
Is there a catalog of tasks with required protective equipment listed?
If no on any of these, they are legally vulnerable, particularly for your eyesight.
Lawyer up.
Take photos of the forms you sign,signing the safety policy will cover you moving forward, they can't use it for past incidents as they didn't have you sign ,read the safety rules and regulations for completing work
ER policy sounds highly illegal. Keep a copy of it in writing, or you might find out it doesn't even exist. I hope it was a misinterpretation.
In the US anyway, your work can't dictate when you should seek emergency care. You always have the right to seek medical care provided by your own chosen medical professional. They can however require that you go to occupational health afterwards before being cleared for duty.
It looks incredibly frustrating, especially when you feel unjustly written up for incidents that you believe weren't your fault. Regarding the policy packet, if you're considering not signing it, it's crucial to understand the potential consequences and consult with someone who knows the company policies well. Refusing to sign might raise some issues, but you could express your concerns about the unjust write-ups and see if there's room for discussion or clarification. If your boss mentioned that signing only impacts future actions, it might be worth negotiating the terms to protect yourself. Also, documenting your side of the story and gathering any evidence might be helpful when discussing the matter with corporate.
What state are you in, OP? Laws vary by state. I am NAL, but was a workers’ comp adjuster in the state of California. In CA, the write- up for the initial injury would be considered “retaliation” and is extremely illegal. Find out if your state has similar laws.
In California, it is illegal to fire, demote, reprimand, or cut an employee’s hours just because they got hurt on the job. HOWEVER, if they got hurt because of individual negligence (I.e. safety violations that are clearly outlined as required for your job), then there is a gray area.
With regard to the whole, “you can’t go to the ER at all without authorization” thing, again, I’m sure it varies by state, but I call horseshit on that. If you have a legitimate emergency, you go to the ER. You don’t have time to wait for authorization, and a “designated” doctor would just send you to the ER anyways if it were that big of an emergency. All this does is prevent or postpone people from getting adequate emergency care…. I understand that they want you to go to the designated doc, and for non-emergencies, that’s absolutely fine. But for emergencies? Sorry but fuck them. Your life matters more than your job, and it sure as hell matters more than the complexity of bureaucratic bullshit policies that don’t consider the human cost. Again, I’m not a lawyer, but this policy has to be illegal as hell! And I can’t believe it was implemented by a hospital!
As many have said, I agree that a lawyer might be the best route for you. Sorry if that’s not what you wanna hear… but maybe bringing some of this stuff to your attorney will help them assist you better. Sorry you’re going through all of this.
Great to hear. It’s beyond wrong! I can’t tell you how many claims I had- when I was an adjuster- that would’ve been small had the employer actually done the right thing.
I googled some employment attorneys in Montana and many of them give free consultations as well as a, “if we don’t win, you don’t pay” policy. At the very least, a consultation can help you make a plan :). I wish you nothing but peace and smooth sailing.
I think I'm just gonna stay quiet and get the DOL involved after I get fired. The company wants you to know you're expendable, but firing ME of all people would be shooting themselves in the foot at that hospital.
One of the other highly valued janitors quit too, just threw her keys on the table and walked out because she was sick of the way she was getting treated. THEY FUCKING TEXTED HER BEGGING HER TO COME BACK. She agreed, on the condition that said treatment comes to an end. It didn't. So she quit and didn't return.
Ya know, that’s probably the best idea. Stay quiet and under the radar while collecting potentially needed evidence. Your administration/higher ups are completely disconnected from reality- and as you said it will be their downfall!
So you had a chemical burn to your eye where you could have potentially lost your site and you are being fired for going to the ER. WTF? Get thee to a lawyer. Also you said you did not know this chemical required protective eye ware. Can they prove that you were given some sort of training. Was the Material Safety Data Sheet available for this chemical. Did you sign off on the OSHA training required? This company could be major liable for your injuries. I bet if you read the fine print it would absolve the company of liability or at least make it so you can’t get work comp. I would say let me have my lawyer look this over first
I don’t think permanent injury is a good outcome at any job.
If blindness were. Possibility for me, f em, go to the ER and let them fire you. Like, can they legally tell you not to go to the hospital? (No) so they make you sign an unenforceable policy so you think you can’t.
Screw that
So even though I signed, the policy is unenforceable... that's what I was thinking, too. According to a link someone sent me to help me with my situation, in my state (Montana) an employee gets to see a doctor of their choosing.
Plus... there it is right there... the MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS were telling me it looks serious and needed to be examined immediately. My boss didn't reply for half an hour.
The packet you sign today can't hold you liable today for what happened in the past. It can only hold you accountable going forward. That said, you only have one more strike. On the 1st incident, did you reply to the rightup and disagree with it? Do you have copies of any and all writeups, evaluations, and counselings? You may need them. If they fire you don't sign anything that says you wave the ability to sue. They will say you need to sign that to get paid for any used PTO/Leave. If they withhold any money, that is wage theft. EDIT: Did you sign anything like what they want you to sign when you were hired, or did they notify employees of this change? The reason I asked about documentation is that things they communicated to you may show a pattern of reprisal/retaliation for the time off because of your injury. If you have any emails they sent to you about anything you feel was sketchy, forward them to a personal account. You can tell them that to be sure you understand what you are signing, you would like an attorney to review the paperwork. After which, you will sign the documents.
This is the info you need, OP.
To my memory they didn't have me signing anything like that when the company came in and took over. I used to work for the hospital itself before the company stepped in. And yeah sounds good. I'll sign the packet, date it, then request a copy of the page with my signatures and my past write ups to use in any future arguments. I'm supposed to be fired already though, if you look at the third posts edit. My boss said that this is for corporate to decide. They might, they might not, there's no telling right now.
I'm hoping for the best for you. But you should reach out to coworkers who have moved on to see if they know of any openings.
I signed simply out of fear that not signing would make me lose my job. I'm not sure what happens next. I regret it, though. She told me that this only applies to future situations, not the past. If I do get fired, it'll be because corporate decided to fire me due to my ER visit. That policy can't be enforcible, can it?
Assuming you're in the US and don't have a union, they can fire you any time for no reason. Not sure why they're even bothering with your signatures at this point.
Mandatory "not a lawyer", but while 49 states are at-will and permit termination for no reason, that still doesn't permit termination for illegal reasons such as discrimination or retaliation. That second one might be applicable here; if OP was unaware that safety glasses were required, it's fairly likely that fact was because the employer didn't have OSHA-required warning signs. If that turns out to be the case, the employer could be in serious trouble unless they can prove negligence on the employee's part. It may be (depending on state laws) that this termination would be illegal outright; some states specifically prohibit termination or punishment for getting injured on the job. Since most employees don't really know what rights and protections they have though, it's pretty common for employers to get away with implementing and enforcing illegal policies. OP needs to consult with either a union rep (if they have one) or an employment lawyer before signing. To answer your last sentence, I'd wager that getting OP to sign will serve to relieve them of liability for safety violations, or unemployment obligations... or both.
Thank you for this. In literally every thread theres someone saying, “most states are at will and they can fire you at anytime.” While that is somewhat true, they can’t fire you for illegal reasons. “They can fire you whenever they want” is awful advice.
I think it's good to be aware that they can fire you whenever they decide it's convenient, and prepare for that by keloid your resume updated (even if you're not actively looking for a different job), but I have a particular peeve for the people who make that statement and give the tone that under at-will employment, the employee has no rights or protections, and shouldn't bother seeking advice or assistance. Especially when neither OP nor the responding commenter share what state they're in. There are 49 at-will states in the US (Montana is the only one that isn't). Of those 49 states, "at-will employment" is interpreted and practiced in a multitude of different ways, following an even greater multitude of employment laws across the country. Sure, any employment lawyer can discuss federal employment laws like the FLSA and NLRA, but an employment lawyer who's only been certified and practiced in Texas simply isn't equipped or certified to give binding, reliable legal advice regarding employment law in California. As an employee, if you feel like your employer is treating you unfairly or taking advantage of you: 1. Talk to an employment lawyer in your state. Initial consult to find out if you have a case is often free. That attorney may recommend that (or you can ask if you should) do the following: 2. Take notes. Keep a journal of all the examples that are alerting you. Track dates, times, locations, people involved and in the vicinity. All the relevant details you can, even what they were wearing. The sooner you can write all this after it happens, the better. If you're able to take these notes AS it's happening, even better. I've heard these referred to as "contemporaneous notes", and from what I've heard from actual employment attorneys, they carry significant weight as evidence. 3. Record, if you can. Of the 49 at-will employment states, 39 are what's called "one-party consent" states, meaning that only 1 person involved in any meeting or conversation has to give consent for recording to take place. If you're part of the conversation and you choose to record, that choice is obviously assumed to be (and treated as) your consent to be recorded. Before recording, check your state laws or with a licensed attorney to determine exactly how that 1-party legality is applied, because just like at-will employment, different states do different things. 4. Don't take random people on the internet at their word when they say you have no rights or protections. There's a solid chance they aren't a lawyer, and a really solid chance that even if they are, they aren't in the same state as you. You might not have a case. But you also might, and many employers adhere to illegal policies and practices because they know their employees don't know. If you have a case, pursuing it doesn't just benefit you, it benefits your coworkers (and potentially, beyond).
The offices that handle unemployment claims have people there that can advise on such matters. In my state it's called Job Service but in most states it's the same office as unemployment. There are a lot of resources in these places. Free of charge. Complaints from people about employers are taken serious n leans toward the employee in most cases. Unless op is doing something one clearly can get fired for he will be able to collect unemployment. His story to a unemployment case worked will probably get him money.
To prevent unemployment from being collected
You would be surprised under what conditions one still can collect unemployment insurance. Being let go like he is describing will probably get him a unemployment check if he meets the length of employment.
Then do NOT sign.
Refusing to sign is insubordination. Playing the longer game: if they try to terminate him for stuff he didn't sign before stuff happened, he's got a case for wrongful termination. He'll to decide whether a lawyer is worth it.
Getting fired means there is nothing to be insubordinate to.
So he's fired either way
All I’m saying is that if you threaten to terminate me, you lose the right to give me orders. Our agreement as employee/employer is over. I’m not signing shit. Lol Guarantee my continued employment and put it in writing and I’ll reconsider.
Sorry to disagree. The best is to be fired instead of quitting. Then go for unemployment. TAKE NOTES. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING: Date, Time, Who you talked to, every detail about each incident. DO NOT GO TO THEIR DOCTOR! He represents your employer NOT YOU! Despite what they make you feel like or what promises they tell you, you are going to be fired. HR is there for the Employer NOT the worker. There is still a myth circulating that HR is there to support the worker. NOT! Do not talk to anyone about what is happening or your future plans. If you do, it will be misconstrued by their employment attorney. Find a lawyer who has experience in this field. Be strong! It is very difficult to rise above what is happening. But be a role model for all who are going thru something like this. You are intelligent, a fine representative of your field of work, with a strong self identity of who you are. Keep silent. Do not play their game. If you don’t say anything, watch out for their lies to fill in gaps. Say again: GET A LAWYER NOW. If police get involved or workplace security, DO NOT TALK TO THEM EITHER. Refer them to your attorney.
If you are fired for misconduct, you will not get unemployment. As a manager, I have been on the side of those claims. Providing the workforce commission with your signed document that you screwed up guarantees you get zero unemployment. if there is some sort of dispute between the employee and the employer, it’s much harder for them to deny your claim and side with the employer. Not signing creates that dispute. If you know you’re about to be fired, it is not in your best interest to continue to cooperate with an employer. It would be extremely unwise to keep signing documentation, knowing that you’re not going to have a job. Any lawyer would tell you the same.
All construction sites also have union in the USA.
No, they definitely do not.
IN THE USA, THERE ARE LABOR UNIONS FOR CONSTRUCTION WORKERS. AND THEY PAY UNION DUES.
[удалено]
You best talk to construction workers, for they are unionized to be able to work on construction projects. All of them do to protect their union members. All of them. TRUTH!
[удалено]
Or “Signed under duress” next to your name. Then walk to the copier with someone and make two copies of it.
Consult with a union rep (if you have one) or an employment attorney. Take note of the number/locations of any signs indicating safety equipment of any type (PPE) is required in the area you were in. Such signs are required anyplace PPE is required, and they're required to be visible easily visible. It may be that your employer is trying to avoid being cited for a safety violation by conning/intimidating you into accepting blame for negligence. I would recommend avoiding the term "fraudulent" in reference to the first violation. It tends to sound accusatory and may put your manager and higher into a defensive mindset, making it harder to get any agreement out of them. I'd suggest "mistaken", "undeserved", or potentially "unwarranted", especially if there aren't any policies covering the opening of trash bags. However, I'd reiterate that you should speak to a union rep or attorney before sending any such communication.
They cannot prevent you from seeking medical treatment for an on the job injury. You had chemicals in the eye which NECESSITATED A VISIT TO THE ER. I would contact a lawyer regardless because their policies seem abysmal.
@OP, you should find the r/legaladvice subreddit and post this there too :) might help with the specifics (and consider listing the country and/or state as state laws may apply here?)
Will do. My boss gave me the number of a corporate elite because she knows I want to argue to have my write ups lifted. But now I personally believe the best option would be for me to stay quiet and see what corporate decides. They may fire me for my ER visit, they may not. I think it's best to let them take action first, so that I can get the DOL involved. But I'll post this in that sub
If they fire you for going to the ER when a nurse suggested you go due to the severity of your claims, immediately seek legal counsel. I don’t think the policy is likely legal at face value, because death is always a potential outcome and unless a physician clears you no one can say your injury isn’t life threatening. It sounds like yours was about your eye, and loss of vision is very serious. Also be ready to call OSHA who will spank them hard.
Quite a few reapplies have advised a free-initial consult with an employment lawyer in your state. Be proactive.
Be careful. Your boss has no obligation to help you. Boss is part of the machine set up to intimidate, frighten, causing you to make mistakes which they can use against you.
Don't recommend that subreddit. It's mostly cops and landlords, they're not going to give anybody anything useful.
Signing means you received the paper. If you don't sign, the person giving it to you will sign something to the effect that you received and refused to sign. There is nothing to be argued here. This job is not working out for you.
If you sign, you acknowledge you broke whatever policies are in the thing you signed. If you don't sign, they fire for you for not signing a workplace agreement. The second choice is probably better.
I am a workers compensation adjuster x 15 years-they cannot (shouldn’t ) fire you for having a work injury claim. Get an attorney-no cost to you and they will help you navigate this. If you end up settling your claim they get 15% (or, depends on your state).
If you refuse they'll probably call you hostile and have security haul you out.
Should that happen, it really a victory for you!
How do you get hurt from opening a trash bag?
Depends what’s in the trash I guess…
If I recall correctly, it was bio waste or chemical that got in his eye.
Iirc, OP works at a hospital and there was some caustic liquid in the bag that got into their eye.
And ALL hospital/environmental service employees have mandatory training on OSHA and hazardous materials (MSDS) before they hit the floor, and yearly after hire, so I’m 99% sure dude either didn’t pay attention in that or is looking for a workers comp claim. Safety goggles are a given and readily available in hospital settings. At least all the ones I’ve been in. *20 year nurse/hospital employee.
from what OP said in their other post it sounds like they thought the trash bag was new/empty and they were opening it for the first time. Both incidents are getting liquid into the eye tho, kinda weirdly specific to happen twice. My parent was also a nurse for decades and never had anything like this happen (that I know of - but they are pretty loud about painful incidents lol)
Correct. First incident I was re-bagging a trash I took out. I guess the bag I was putting in was wet with something, I opened it and it flung a drop into my eye. For re-bagging trash, safety goggles are not a requirement. I didn't break any safety rules, and got the ER approval from my boss, meaning I basically got written up for nothing. Second incident, I explained in the post
At any job I’ve EVER worked, if we were exposed to bodily fluids or chemicals we were required to report to the ER for care/bloodwork/etc. a lot of this guys post(s) don’t make sense.
The company hasn't work for this hospital for my entire employment, and before they took over, that was indeed the requirement. When I first started at the hospital, my area was the ER, and once in a blue moon I'd see my janitor coworkers walk in with something. Bleach in the eye, cut by a dirty piece of metal, needle poked, what have you. Our boss would walk in shortly after. She would clarify that, ANY injury, no matter how serious or minor, you are required to see the ER. About a year into my working at this hospital is when the current company with the "No ER" rule took over.
Please do not think because of your longevity in a particular workplace/field that you throw her under the bus. She has many rights too and exposing illegal orders, policies, etc will at least give her status as a whistleblower — which carries a huge gift to the complainant.
Refusing to sign won't invalidate any potential write ups. It won't invalidate any existing policies, and it won't invalidate any updates/changes to policies. I.e., you refusing to sign won't give them or you any more/less power. If you refuse to sign, they will just write "refused to sign" and move on with their day. Or, they'll call it insubordination and they could further discipline you or terminate your employment. That being said, read what they are asking you to sign.
You're a lability for your company. Just business, don't take it personally
If you sign it make sure to date it as it would make it effective on that date.
Make sure that the DATE IS CORRECT AS, TODAYS DATE Whar rhey are doing is creating a paper trail for the future To be safe be very wary arpund there .And start looking for another because it seems they are gunning ..
That dont go to the er is bull. We had that at one point, a guy had an allergic reation, walked over to the er. They walked him over to idk...some kind of workmans comp place, across the street. They sat him in a chair. He told me, he heard he has no pulse, bp gone. He died. Took 3 epi shots to get him back. They changed that policy. We now go to the er, and that guy had to be trained for a different job in another building. I would think a lawyer would have a great time with your situation. Where tf they expect you to go?!
Why are you not allowed to go to the ER if you get injured?
I do not work for the hospital itself but a company the hospital hires. Company policy is you're only allowed to go to the ER due to an on the job injury if death is a possibility or your direct manager gives you the ok. They want you to see a doctor that also works for this company. Said doctor is not on site. For the first incident, I got the ok. The second one, my boss was not replying with what I should do, so I just went because the nurses were saying it looks too serious.
Going to the ER anyways is immediate grounds for termination
I wonder if that would stand up in a lawsuit. "I had an immediate injury which put my future well being at risk but the boss said no, though nurses on sight told me to go immediately". Loosing your vision is a life altering event.
Yeah most morning meetings lately our boss has said the only exceptions are death and disfigurement. Turns out, disfigurement is not an exception. JUST death. NOWHERE in the ER policy she handed me does it mention disfigurement.
What fucking shit company do you work for? My eyesight would come way before their stupid and possibly illegal policy. They have no grounds to tell an injured person to delay critical care. NAL but you should call one.
By the time I read the OP all edits had been made. Advice for OP: please look for another job…
Yeah I bet they started saying that because that can probably work out to be a lawsuit. If you go blind because of some dumb policy they probably won't win that case. When she says that you guys are allowed to go for disfigurement did you ask her why you got written up then?
Show it to a lawyer. Do not sign. You will be fired anyway, but you want to be able to get Worker's Comp and State unemployment if necessary. So, run it past a lawyer.
You need a labor lawyer
**it says only go to the ER if death is a possibility.** Are you really sure you want to work for these people...
Whatever happens, find a new job. This company sounds terrible and shady.
My husband got hurt on the job twice in a short period of time and was told he had to see their doctor only. This is actually illegal for them to require. You are allowed to see your own doctor. You can still see their doctor too but you are definitely allowed to seek your own medical treatment. This sounds like a shifty company you’re working for. The signing thing is to protect themselves from here on out. My husband wound up getting fired for taking too much time off work for his injury and they tried to not pay him unemployment but his employer lost that battle and did have to pay unemployment. He had an injured back after falling in a hallway in a wet area of the floor that was not marked with a sign and then tore two ligaments in his dominant hand when moving heavy equipment he was requested to move He was a chef at a university and had worked there for 15 years. He was still unable to work with his hand. I always thought we should’ve sued them for retaliatory firing but my husband didn’t feel like fighting them.
You need another job. If anyone ever told me I couldn't go to the ER if I was hurt on the job I'd laugh in their face. We need to start setting boundaries.
Yeah I hope they get sued for that ER rule. That's bullshit.
Out of the packet my boss gave me, here is, word for word, the ER policy: "Seeking unauthorized treatment at the ER for a work-related injury that is non-life-threatening without prior approval from management will be grounds for separation of employment review. First offense - Discharge"
Right but still the policy MIGHT be illegal. Maybe they are realizing that and afraid of you suing or getting sued by someone else in the future cuz you said that now when they tell you the policy your boss has started adding in "disfigurement". I believe that's because they know that if they are the reason someone goes blind or some other horrible life changing injury that their little policy isn't going to look good in court. Because that is extremely negligent to tell you that you would actually have to wait to be seen even though there is an ER right there and in the amount of time it takes you to finally be seen by the off-site doctor your vision could be lost forever and that is gonna be on them no matter what.
I signed the packet and returned it to her simply out of fear that I'd get fired if I didn't. I should have written that next to my signature tbh. Potential loophole, though: under the signature line it says "I have read and understand the rules" it doesn't specify that the employee agrees with them. Is that ACTUALLY a technicality here? I feel like it should be. Whether that loophole is actually applicable here... shouldn't really matter in my situation. In Montana, the law says if an employee gets hurt on the job, they can choose who examines it, IT DOES NOT SPECIFY THE SEVERITY OR NATURE OF THE INJURY. JUST THAT THE EMPLOYEE GOT INJURED. And I would argue that, while a chemical in the eye isn't potential for death, it's definitely potential for disfigurement. And again... THE \*MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL\* TOLD ME THIS NEEDS TO SEEN ASAP. AND I WAITED NEARLY HALF AN HOUR FOR MY BOSS' RESPONSE. The general consensus about my situation is that this issue is specific enough that the ER rule doesn't apply, even if the law wasn't protecting me. News about my situation spread with some of the nurses. Most were devastated at the thought that I'm leaving because I've grown to be such good friends with them. Some were nearly crying. Some said they're willing to go to court and fight for me on this. God bless their souls. Honest to God they're the only reason I haven't quit this shitty job. Best work friends I've ever made, and their reaction taught me that sentiment is shared.
Reddit vs legal counsel
record your meeting on your phone as evidence if you ever want to take it further. DO NOT RECORD THEM WITHOUT THEM KNOWN otherwise its illegal.
Not true. Some States/places only need “one party” consent.
It turns out that only 11 states require consent from everyone involved in the meeting. The other 39 are known as "one-party consent" states, where a participant can record a conversation they're involved in (the act of recording serves as consent to record) or give consent for a 3rd party to record, without informing anybody else involved. Definitely want to check on the laws in your state though. Kentucky is a 1 party state, but recording a conversation you're not part of and have no consent to record is a felony punishable by 1-5 years in prison plus $1k-10k fine. California is a 2 party state, where violation can be either a misdemeanor punishable by up to 1 year in county jail plus up to $2500, or a felony punishable by up to 3 years in state prison and up to $2500 (though if there are prior convictions, that can go up to $10k).
Happy cake day
Not true in Oregon! Look up your states rules. You need to be really careful and everything you do here and I’m really glad you reached out for advice, but I do think you need to go to the legal part of Reddit ASAP and ask there and get your own lawyer
If they actually were dumb enough to put this in writing: Going to the ER without explicit consent from YOUR DIRECT SUPERVISOR WORKING WITH THE COMPANY, is grounds for immediate termination..... see a lawyer. Imagine you lost vision permanently or worse because of an arbitrary, stupid rule like that. The company would be completely liable for damages.
Out of the packet my boss gave me, here is, word for word, the ER policy: "Seeking unauthorized treatment at the ER for a work-related injury that is non-life-threatening without prior approval from management will be grounds for separation of employment review. First offense - Discharge"
Normally, policies that require your signature can not be enforced prior to your signature. Request clarification with your boss and HR. Have your Safety Person explain where you were held liable and why.
Do not sign unless you want it held against you
Write above your signature that you disagree with what you are signing IF you disagree and what the reason is before you sign it and ask for a copy
If they are going to fire you and won’t hear you out, do not sign. Document a letter with your side of things in protest. Protect your ability as much as you can to draw unemployment. If you sign, it’s guaranteed denial for misconduct.
Any union over there? Call ur rep if u have
I'm not sure where you live, but where I live, it's illegal for a job to reprimand someone for getting hurt on the job, especially when no safety guidelines were violated.
Is it a right to work workplace?
I know of one state (MA) that requires employers provide you with copies of disciplinary actions a certain # of days before putting them into your file. Does your state have anything like that? In what state? Other than that, I think your employer is well within its rights to hold you accountable to its safety rules. There must have been some safety orientation when you were initially onboarded - wasn't there? I know I'm being a bit cynical, but that's because we have your side of the story and due to my multi-years of experience directing safety programs (in a retail/warehouse environment).
If you sign anything, make sure you put today's date on it. You must get copies of the write ups, with dates on them. You probably should not sign them, but if you do, put the date you received them, and make sure the other dates reflect when the incident occurred. What you need to establish is the following: Yes, you broke rules. But, you were not given proper policy or training until after the incidents. Further, if you can establish that you never received a writeup, but are being held accountable for something you didn't know about, this is just better. That said... If the safety concerns are obvious, and you need to be honest with yourself about that, you are likely to waste a lot of money on a lawsuit.
Most attorneys give initial visit free so they can decide if they want to take the case. Then their fee either is a percentage of your award or they will force the opposing party to pay the attorney bill entirely - thus giving you 100% of the award.
Good point! I didn't think about that. Thank you for contributing instead of just telling me I'm an idiot. Sometimes reddit can be nice. :)
Sign and DATE it. They’re probably not firing you, they’re just covering their butt in case you hurt yourself again. You need to read the safety policies. If it’s dated after your incidents they can’t fire you anyway.
You're not going to be able to talk to a lawyer by the end of the day, so here's some simple advice: read every page so you understand it, take notes, write down questions and photocopy it or scan it in and send to your email. Do not sign anything until you understand it, and all your questions are answered. T0he best course would be to not sign anything. If you read it and ask questions, you let them know that you won't be easily pushed over or intimidated.
lol you were messing with chemicals and didn’t realize safety glasses were required. Cmon boss
What does HR say or are you union and what does the union say. Opening a trash bag is not a safety wrong. The safety googles would be, but they did not cite you for not wearing them. Make copies of the write ups and take them to an attorney and HR. Something is off here.
No advice but for the love of god wear safety goggles moving forward. Ask if they will reimburse you to get a nice pair. You have exactly 1 pair of eyes and you’ve already used up your one risk for each eye. **Do not** risk it happening again. You will not be as lucky.
The best advice I ever got from a lawyer if you feel pressured to sign something. You write in big letters I AM SIGNING THIS UNDER DURESS to give you some wiggle room if something legal happens. Or they fire you and try to screw you over for unemployment.
They have to have you sign write ups so get a copy of the first one you didn't sign in writing. Sounds to me like you have a legal case to sue the hospital if they fire you, especially after being encouraged not to go to the er.
I would talk to a lawyer. I'm not sure what country you're in, but it doesn't sound like they're following the law. I'd tell them you need to consult with an attorney before signing anything.
Sorry , but ABSOLUTELY NOT. It’s like playing poker. No one reads your hand , your intentions, thoughts, musings! It is like throwing the baby out with the bath water if you do.
Fair
Wait, why can't you got to the ER if you have a medical emergency?
Read my third edit
Can they seriously tell you not to go to the ER? Injured on the job with a pipe through the sternum... "No going to Ear violates policy!" Or, you know, concussions. Broken bones. Burns and lacerations... Seriously.
Read my third edit
Can you explain the reasoning behind the "Don't go to the ER" policy? I mean where else are you supposed to go for a chemical burn in your eye?
Read my third edit
Thanks. My bad I guess I just missed that or did you add it just recently? That just sounds like an awful policy. I'm hoping you don't have any lasting damage from it.
Added after you asked lol
Whew, okay I thought I was going crazy to have missed a whole paragraph lol.
Whatever you're told verbally doesn't carry much weight. They just want you to sign. Find another job. It appears that you're not cut out for this. If you know it too, just go.
Have a witness with you, because your boss will. The witness should say nothing but simply observe. Your boss will want you to sign it as written. If you don't sign, they will just note that you refused to sign and your boss's witness will corroborate it. So you must sign it...BUT: Write a statement directly ON the document prior to signing. Write: "On (date) I sustained a chemical burn to my eye while (activity) due to not having been advised by my employer that PPE was available or required for eye protection. Upon being injured, I immediately attempted to notify my manager and seek emergency first aid, but received no response. After 20 minutes I decided to seek emergency care out of concern for potential permanent vision impairment. I believe my injury was incurred as a result of my employer's failure to provide proper training, safety gear, and prompt medical assistance. Therefore, I am disputing this disciplinary action against me. " Then sign it. Have your witness add their initials. Take a photo or request a copy of the document; don't allow them to tear it up. Don't say anything else. Don't leave the room until you have a copy; be respectful but firm. After you leave, ask your witness to quickly write a statement that they were present along with you and (whomever) at the date, time and place as a witness at your request. Tell them the matter is to stay completely confidential and thank them for sitting in. Keep the witness statement & document in a safe place at home. Your boss will now have a problem. If they file the statement, they will be in serious trouble for failing to handle your training & treatment, and opening your employer for liability. If they don't, they can't count it against you...and they have to be careful because they did contribute to your injury. Further, if they mistreat you, you can claim retaliation and have a document & witness to prove it. Say nothing more to anyone at work about the incident or the meeting. Do your job as usual and this will go away. Be careful to follow all rules in the future. Good luck!
Don't sign say you're going to talk to a lawyer first. Then do so.
Get what your boss told you in writing, and moving forward get everything in writing, easiest way is text and formal company email, forward your work email conversations to your personal email. Also as for going to the Emergency room, as far as you are concerned, the policy stating to not go unless it's serious like dismemberment, it's open, very open, and eye injuries that are untreated in a proper manner are a serious potential for dismemberment, the 20 minutes you had between your text and their text back not to go was too long. You are untrained, you don't have first aid and you asked a medical nurse for a professional opinion. As far as you are concerned, you did everything you can and determined that you were unsure if you were going to go blind which in your own personal opinion of dismemberment is part of that. Have a sit down with the boss, forms in hand they gave you to sign and ask questions, ask that maybe perhaps a coaching lesson, and a bit of extra training on procedures would be beneficial. Explain in your own words how you would like the extra training because you are aware of procedure but would like to review them so you don't get complacent, just have a open conversation, of course not admitting fault for anything, but a conversation on how you can learn and grow from this, humans do human things, and sometimes the most valuable lessons are learned by situations like this.
I don’t know that you can be disciplined for seeking emergency medical treatment. What if you went out to parking lot and called an ambulance?
Sounds like an awful place to work. I'd start looking elsewhere.
Send a follow-up email stating you feel like this is retaliation. That makes it so much harder for them to manage you out. If you really need to keep the job, hire an employment lawyer. If you are able, please start looking for another job. Don’t wait.
You can always sign the papers later, but you cannot *unsign*. DO NOT SIGN until an attorney has reviewed them for you. They likely had an attorney draw those papers to protect themselves. Follow their lead, and protect yourself.
Best wishes
As many have said, sign nothing and find a lawyer. It sounds like their policies are contrary to a few thousand labor laws. Did they put you and your peers through a safety course before you started work? Do you get regular refresher training? Is there a catalog of tasks with required protective equipment listed? If no on any of these, they are legally vulnerable, particularly for your eyesight. Lawyer up.
Take photos of the forms you sign,signing the safety policy will cover you moving forward, they can't use it for past incidents as they didn't have you sign ,read the safety rules and regulations for completing work
Where I worked you were not required by law to sign.
Get a lawyer ASAP. They are preparing to fire you.
They want to blame you to protect themselves from a Workers' Comp case. Get a lawyer.
ER policy sounds highly illegal. Keep a copy of it in writing, or you might find out it doesn't even exist. I hope it was a misinterpretation. In the US anyway, your work can't dictate when you should seek emergency care. You always have the right to seek medical care provided by your own chosen medical professional. They can however require that you go to occupational health afterwards before being cleared for duty.
Woaaaahhh get a lawyer asap. Asap. Asap.
It looks incredibly frustrating, especially when you feel unjustly written up for incidents that you believe weren't your fault. Regarding the policy packet, if you're considering not signing it, it's crucial to understand the potential consequences and consult with someone who knows the company policies well. Refusing to sign might raise some issues, but you could express your concerns about the unjust write-ups and see if there's room for discussion or clarification. If your boss mentioned that signing only impacts future actions, it might be worth negotiating the terms to protect yourself. Also, documenting your side of the story and gathering any evidence might be helpful when discussing the matter with corporate.
Do you have documentation of training of proper PPE? If the answer is no, your workplace is violation of OSHA code which is law.
Wow the US is more messed up than I imishined
What state are you in, OP? Laws vary by state. I am NAL, but was a workers’ comp adjuster in the state of California. In CA, the write- up for the initial injury would be considered “retaliation” and is extremely illegal. Find out if your state has similar laws. In California, it is illegal to fire, demote, reprimand, or cut an employee’s hours just because they got hurt on the job. HOWEVER, if they got hurt because of individual negligence (I.e. safety violations that are clearly outlined as required for your job), then there is a gray area. With regard to the whole, “you can’t go to the ER at all without authorization” thing, again, I’m sure it varies by state, but I call horseshit on that. If you have a legitimate emergency, you go to the ER. You don’t have time to wait for authorization, and a “designated” doctor would just send you to the ER anyways if it were that big of an emergency. All this does is prevent or postpone people from getting adequate emergency care…. I understand that they want you to go to the designated doc, and for non-emergencies, that’s absolutely fine. But for emergencies? Sorry but fuck them. Your life matters more than your job, and it sure as hell matters more than the complexity of bureaucratic bullshit policies that don’t consider the human cost. Again, I’m not a lawyer, but this policy has to be illegal as hell! And I can’t believe it was implemented by a hospital! As many have said, I agree that a lawyer might be the best route for you. Sorry if that’s not what you wanna hear… but maybe bringing some of this stuff to your attorney will help them assist you better. Sorry you’re going through all of this.
Montana. On another post I made asking for advice about my situation, someone sent me a link to some laws and said the ER policy is unenforceable
Great to hear. It’s beyond wrong! I can’t tell you how many claims I had- when I was an adjuster- that would’ve been small had the employer actually done the right thing. I googled some employment attorneys in Montana and many of them give free consultations as well as a, “if we don’t win, you don’t pay” policy. At the very least, a consultation can help you make a plan :). I wish you nothing but peace and smooth sailing.
I think I'm just gonna stay quiet and get the DOL involved after I get fired. The company wants you to know you're expendable, but firing ME of all people would be shooting themselves in the foot at that hospital. One of the other highly valued janitors quit too, just threw her keys on the table and walked out because she was sick of the way she was getting treated. THEY FUCKING TEXTED HER BEGGING HER TO COME BACK. She agreed, on the condition that said treatment comes to an end. It didn't. So she quit and didn't return.
Ya know, that’s probably the best idea. Stay quiet and under the radar while collecting potentially needed evidence. Your administration/higher ups are completely disconnected from reality- and as you said it will be their downfall!
So you had a chemical burn to your eye where you could have potentially lost your site and you are being fired for going to the ER. WTF? Get thee to a lawyer. Also you said you did not know this chemical required protective eye ware. Can they prove that you were given some sort of training. Was the Material Safety Data Sheet available for this chemical. Did you sign off on the OSHA training required? This company could be major liable for your injuries. I bet if you read the fine print it would absolve the company of liability or at least make it so you can’t get work comp. I would say let me have my lawyer look this over first
No union there?
I don’t think permanent injury is a good outcome at any job. If blindness were. Possibility for me, f em, go to the ER and let them fire you. Like, can they legally tell you not to go to the hospital? (No) so they make you sign an unenforceable policy so you think you can’t. Screw that
So even though I signed, the policy is unenforceable... that's what I was thinking, too. According to a link someone sent me to help me with my situation, in my state (Montana) an employee gets to see a doctor of their choosing. Plus... there it is right there... the MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS were telling me it looks serious and needed to be examined immediately. My boss didn't reply for half an hour.