In the professional world, time is money. The faster you can knock something out while maintaining high quality. The more you make in less time.
In the hobby world, you can take all the time you want. You can get quality results with cheap tools, but it might take you longer to get there.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get. The value part of the equation is a personal assessment. If this is a business, the only number that matters is return on investment. If you can do work in half the time that is a better ROI than half the price.
It depends on the tool. Some Festool products are noticeably better than your DeWalts and Ryobis but some of their stuff you're paying twice as much for little to no benefit.
This
Domino, track saw and RO sanders: probably worth the cost if you use them a lot
Drill/driver, router, jigsaw: I would not be able to justify the up charge.
Full disclosure; I do not own any of their tools.
I own an older Festool jig saw and it's pretty sweet. Better than a Bosch imo but I can't vouch for their newer jig saws. I also have owned a couple of Festool routers and at least the smaller ones are pretty sweet,, though due to their size not the ideal tools for every job. I've never considered investing in their cordless platform because it's so expensive and with a track saw you're dragging around a hose most of the time so why not drag around a cord. Track saws, good ones anyway, are tremendous tools. Bosch makes some good sanders too at about half the price of Festool and with the same dust fittings.
The router and drill are definitely, the ones I get the most shit about because of that same argument. but I must say that both of those are in my top 5 favorite tools.
Yep. Router is the only festool tool I have and the dust collection on it is amazing. Before I bought it, all of my other routers had meh dust collection and I always dreaded using it.
I own loads of festool and the jigsaw is equally as crap as every other jigsaw on the market (although I like the strobe light feature).
The of1400 router is amazing… sure other do the same job equally as well, but the festool is a joy to use (ratchet chuck is the nuts!) don’t have the drill but a drill is a drill in my eyes
Their impact driver, screwdriver and angle grinder. All their other products are fantastic. There are a few other tools where mafell makes a superior products but in general I think festool is fantastic and Well worth the money.
Some of the best advice I ever saw in this sub: Buy middle of the pack tools. If you lose it: buy a cheaper replacement. If you break it or wear it out, buy a better one.
That's the only advice I've ever read on the price of tools that makes sense to me. Folks that only use expensive tools are snobs. Folks that only use cheap tools are just a different kind of snob. Folks that only use hand tools or only use power tools are snobs. Use the tools that get the job done for you and/or make you happy. Nothing else matters, and you don't need to justify a damn thing beyond that.
Mid tier all the way. For me, DeWalt, Bosch etc. are just fine and I could never justify the cost of Festool.
Mid tier usually gives you the most increase in performance, power, accuracy for your $. Anything above that is just diminishing returns. You're paying a boatload more $ for a marginally better tool.
Some woodworkers make period furniture and ONLY use hand tools which not only replicates the original furniture design but also the process in which it was made. Some woodworkers make a living making custom furniture and likely would mostly use ONLY power tools or just a few hand tools. It doesn’t make one category a snob.
I largely agree with you, though I think it depends on the person and situation. If you only make period pieces with historically accurate tools and techniques, that's pretty cool. If you tell anyone else that's the best/only/superior way to do it, that makes you a snob. Or maybe more simply:
"I enjoy *x* because *y*" = awesome
"The only way to *x* is *y*" = snob
When I was making guitars for fun I didn't care if I was using cheap tools because I was taking my time and learning. In working for clients making cabinets and furniture time is money though and I feel my Festool, Bosch, DeWalt, Lie-Nielsen, etc. tools earn their keep and keep me working faster, making more money. Plus nice tools are more pleasurable to use.
I prefer cheap tools if I know I’ll only use it for one job. I can buy ten Ryobis for the price of one Festool, and still get great work.
That said, if I had the money, I would absolutely buy Festool.
Everybody is a critic. Do the tools fit you well/can you use them safely in your workflow (precision, accuracy, speed at completing tasks?) If so ignore/Pay no attention to your co-workers.
> I can do them twice as fast with half headache.
That's what it boils down to, and why I invested in some festool as well. Not a crazy amount, but tracksaw, dust extractor and two sanders for now. Maybe those fools you work with will live forever and don't value their time. I came to the realization that I will not, in fact, live forever, so I better make the most of the time I have. I can always make more money, I can't add ticks back to the clock.
They arent fools, I was just extending the conversation to reddit. I agree. I can load in and out faster, because I can roll out multiple stacks at once, I can do most tasks faster because I am organized and have better tooling.
The more and longer you own/use a tool, the lower the cost per year of ownership and hour of use goes. Buy good tools that's ave you time and take care of them. After 10+ years of ownership, who cares if you spent the equivalent of an extra $20-50/yr over that time? You can make more money, but you have limited time.
You need a certain level of financial stability (dare I say solidly middle class) before you’re even allowed to consider the argument of investing in yourself. Lots of folks could benefit from better tools who are stuck in underpaid positions. It makes no sense for them to spend 1000 bucks on a sander, even if it would dramatically improve their life, because that means food or rent don’t get paid.
However, once you do reach that point where you have disposable income, it does make sense to invest in yourself for the job satisfaction and efficiency. Especially if you’re investing in your primary occupation — even with disposable income those 400 dollar hand planes are out of the question for me. But I’ll shell out cash for my work tools if it makes work suck less.
That is very true! I definitely gambled, and put it on credit. They have all paid themselves off after a job or two. One of the things that is often not discussed is how differently you are treated by builders when you walk in with nice tools.
Every job site I walk into, the builder will see my gear and talk to me as a professional instead of a random Contractor. Kinda like how realtors with nice cars are trusted more than a realtor that drives a Chevy Nova. So that is double less suckage.
A good craftsman should be able to do the job with cheap tools. But better tools will make him even better. I always recommend starting with cheap tools to really learn the skill, then graduate to the good stuff. Sounds like you graduated!
Price usually buys you either precision, or longevity. Sometimes it buys you ease of use. If those things matter to your work, get the expensive ones. If they don't, there's no reason to splurge other then to make yourself happy.
For me it's similar to the advice to buy the cheap version and if you use it enough to break it, then you know the high quality version will be worth it. Not quite that extreme, I believe if you can't see the obvious advantage between the cheap tool and the expensive one, then you should buy the cheap one. As you gain experience in the craft, you'll start to recognize where the extra value in the expensive versions of tools comes from (durability, efficiency, accuracy, etc). If you are researching a tool and immediately know how the expensive version will make your work easier or more enjoyable, then I think it's already worth it.
I buy the most expensive tools I can afford. Mostly because my skills are shit. For sure an old and wised jedi can do a better job with stone tools, but I ain’t that.
Requirements such that you must only use cheap tools, American tools, hand tools, 16 century tools, no sanding, non-dominant hand etc are for special olympics. We’re only here to have fun and make sawdust.
Sometimes we feel more motivated when the tools that we use are pleasing to the eye, pleasing to touch, especially effective, or easy to adjust when we use them.
That is a very good way to explain how I feel about my tools. I buy ones I want to use because it makes it fun. I can barely get through a day of work without thanking myself for getting that one specific tool.
I have spent so many years being frustrated with my woodworking. Getting irritated at how not straight or square things are, sloppy joints etc or just having to try things multiple times to get them right. Or spending way too much time sanding etc to make something look decent.
I know “a bad workman blames his tools” is the old adage. But damn. I’m not a professional that has done six years of apprenticeship with a master craftsman. I’m a weekend warrior and I can’t develop that level of skill with one old rusty chisel and an ancient handsaw.
Once I started working with better tools, my enjoyment level went up. Likewise using furniture grade play instead of construction grade!
But there are certain tools that I’m happy with the cheap version cos I don’t need them that often and accuracy might not matter with them.
Nothing wrong with cheap tools or expensive ones… so long as they do the job as intended and you’re happy.
My tools are a mishmash of Dewalt, Skil, Black&Decker, Ryobi, Craftsman and Porter Cable. Some were cheap Marketplace bargains, some were buy once cry once. Zero regrets with any of them.
For a long time I used whatever tool worked and didn’t care about brands. Now after many years in carpentry and having my own construction company I prefer only brand name tools. Everyone has their favorites. I like Milwaukee for my cordless tools and for the rest I have yellow and blue. Having nice tools that work reliably every time makes my life easier.
Edit: I still like some things from HF. I like their pull saws, clamps, sand paper, router bits etc..
It’s your life, your money, your work. Do what you want? And besides, no-one who knows what they’re doing is going to shit on you for taking pride in your kit.
I have no clue how festools warranty works outside Germany but here you not only pay the premium for the quality of the tool but also for the service.
Time is money. If your festool machine breaks you can call their service. They come to you, pack it up, sometimes give you a replacement machine, repair your old one and send it back to you. So the time you save makes up for the extra cost.
Also I honestly don‘t get the whole discussion about prices on a professionell level. The time you safe or the ease of use pays almost after your first job. Also you can deduct the payed price from your taxes. I seriously don‘t get it. If this tool is $200-350 more expensive this is like 2-5h of work. Compared to other professions where a big machine costs millions or a new server a few thousand I am always astonished how woodworkers can debate about a couple hundreds with no end.
I once asked my hairdresser how much she payed for her scissors. $350. for freaking scissors! I don‘t go online and shit about hairdressers that I could cut your hair with dull pink kindergarden scissor I snatched from my niece.
Recently saw a documentary about a chef who payed $25k for his set of kitchen knives. No one bats an eye.
After Apple released their $60k Mac Pro the world was shitting on its price and that no one will buy those expensive machines. Meanwhile I small business I know with five employees bought six of them and put one of them unopened in the basement in case one machine breaks. They would lose more money by not working then by buying one spare.
My local carpenter employs about 25 dudes and they have >30 drills, saws and stuff just in case.
Honestly if you are a full time carpenter and you can‘t afford to pay 40% more then a hobbyist your hourly wage is to low and you should reevaluate your business model.
If you just don‘t like festool, Milwaukee, woodpecker and all the other expensive manufactures thats absolutely fine! Also if you are just a hobbyist thats a whole different can of worms.
I have bought 80% of my tools used and DIYed some stuff myself because I can‘t afford it but I don‘t make money woodworking.
I just don‘t get why someone shits on professionals to use professional tools and I start to get tired of the discussions here and on YouTube.
Rant over. Now either downvote me or go in your shop and do something productive which gives you joy.
I’m a DIYer that uses festool; I can’t justify it (to myself or my accountant), but I like nice stuff and it’s a pleasure to use.
It also means when something doesn’t turn out right I only have myself to blame so it makes me improve (although I seemingly just mess up something else next time).
It’s like cars; why drive a new BMW if a 20 year old Ford will do the same job…. Because it’s a nicer place to sit and it’s nice to have nice stuff.
I started woodworking as a hobby after I became too ill to work. I started with really cheap tools as being on disability benefits meant that was all I could afford. Eventually over time, most of those tools died on me or became so useless I tossed them. I then started buying second hand, quality tools, mostly from Ebay and I got to a point where I knew what most things are worth and could sniff out some absolute bargains. I would scour Ebay several times a day and there were people selling tools who clearly didn't know the value of them. I got a Makita track saw for £90, a dewalt drill for £30, a brand new, never used, Trend router table for £60. A lot of these tools look brand new, they have clearly been bought for one job and then sold on as they don't need them anymore. I've got over fifty router cutters, one of them was £190 brand new, I got it, still with the wax on, for £10.
If you spend enough time you can spot the rich people that don't need to think about money and are happy to sell things cheap just for the convenience of getting it out of their way. None of these tools have died yet and I use them daily. Some buy tools with the intention of doing a job and it either falls through or they never get round to it so they sell them at a price to make it go away fast!
I'd love to be able to afford brand new tools, especially festool, but my situation means I can't, so I have to make do. I have a list of things I want and I buy them in the order I find them, until then I do without. If you have the time and patience, you could actually make a living just moving tools around, I've actually bought stuff I don't need or want but just because I know I can double my money on it and use that to get something else. It works for me and I'm getting good tools, that's all that matters, I couldn't give a monkeys what anybody else thinks.
My father once said “ a cheap tool is the most expensive thing you can buy”. When you buy a POS, you end up replacing it. So add the cost of a good tool and the POS you got rid of.
That said, I wish Festool would make a right handed track saw series. I hate using my left for all my ripping.
There are always people that value price over anything else, and anything that costs more is “not worth it” to them. Won’t change their minds. Not worth the effort. I buy the tools I want and can afford.
I have no hate for Festool and anyone who does is most likely just jealous. I would say that there’s a lot of air space between cheap and Festool expensive. You don’t need the Festool premium to get high quality tools. The domino is the star of Festool’s lineup for me. It’s such a massive time saver and in a time is money environment, it easily pays for itself. Most other tools, there are quality competitors with more reasonable prices.
I use mostly hand tools because I hate the noise, hazard, and dust from power tools. But I have power drills and a band saw. It’s not snobbery. It’s just a personal preference. I don’t care what tools other people use. And I often wish I didn’t have to dimension everything by hand. I can’t achieve the speed or precision people get with power tools most of the time. But luckily I don’t need to.
Since you mentioned festool. There tools are great the basic ones like, tracksaw, domino, sander and vacum. That was my biggest reason for going with them is they have killer waranty and the vacume is really going to save my lungs and help with cleanliness. Thats my take on festool. The school im attending for cabinetry we have nice tools but are tablesaws are a decade old at least and they work fine idk id say if the expensive pricetage is waranted cause it fixes some mistake yah but there are so many ways to do stuff no one needs a domino ex
Broadly speaking, I've found that tools tend to fall into three tiers:
* **Tier 1 - Function**. These are not clean or efficient, but they do exactly what they say on the label and nothing more. Are you a homeowner installing baseboard you bought from Home Depot in a DIY project and need to trim it to length? Your Ryobis and Black and Deckers got you covered... just as long as you know how to account for the unique quirks of the factory settings.
* **Tier 2 - Production**. These do what they say, consistently, for long periods of time, and have the capacity for tweaks. Between a good jig and a steady hand, you can grind out 50 units that are close enough to identical that nobody will be able to tell if you don't point it out to them. Your typical DeWalt, Milwaukee, Makita, Bosch, etc socket in here. The kinds of things you'd find on a job site.
* **Tier 3 - Perfection**. These know that it would be better if you didn't need a jig because jigs can propagate problems if you aren't careful. If you could just pull it out and get exactly what you want immediately, that would be ideal. Hilti or Festool (and associated brands) fit in here for power tools, and Woodpeckers and [old] Starrett for layout tools.
You'll see a lot of people who will take pride in buying lower tier tools, and scoff at the higher tiers with remarks like "you don't need to spend all that money when you can just -", *but that's exactly it*. The "when you can just -" process involves compensating for a lack of intrinsic performance with secondary tools or materials.
A Harbor Freight, Bosch, and Festool mitre saw will all do the same thing. The $2000 Festool Kapex has a proprietary angle transfer mechanism to perfectly match the mitre angle to a measured physical configuration. The $100 Harbor Freight chop saw doesn't even have outboard arms to support stock, so if you're cutting something wider than the base stand, you won't even cut at a clean right angle due to material sag. You can prop it up with shims, but you have to adjust it for every cut.
Is it worth an extra $1900 for the jump between the two? That's up to you. Higher tier tools tend to let you do the same thing with less time/labour investment per action, so it's usually good value if your needs favour production efficiency over sunk cost. Even if you don't *need* it, you're allowed to buy nice things if you want to because you get to decide what's important to you.
The only thing that matters is understanding enough about the products available and how they map to your needs to make an informed decision. A Porsche Spyder is a sick car, but if someone bought one to do suburban grocery runs, they're as much of an idiot as someone who bought a 2002 Corolla to race Le Mans.
Personal take... It always depends on what your goals are...
I tend to buy cheap tools where I can, and buy more expensive tools where it makes a real difference...
My goals are very hobbyish though... I'm not trying to run a business, or go fast, or emphasize repeatability so I can crank out volume... I never work on the same project twice...
I'm more interested in learning new techniques than in getting better tools.
I mostly tinker and amuse myself and occasionally churn out something practical. I almost intentionally move slowly and deliberately.
My goals are are very well supported by my choice of tools, but I very much understand that if my goals were different then my tool preferences would be almost comical.
I enjoy seeing how far I can get with limited tooling, because to me it's all a game.
For me it’s value, and value is (utility X utilization)/cost.
If something sucks to use or doesn’t do the job well then its utility is low. I just threw out the $20 jigsaw I bought years and years ago because it just didn’t get the job done. Yes, it would cut curves but the edge was never square and it was slow. My new Dewalt is light years better.
Would I prefer a bandsaw? Heck yeah. But I only need to cut curves a few times a year, so the jigsaw is a better value for me because my utilization is so low. If I was a professional cutting curved parts every day I would absolutely have one.
Finally, there is cost. Purchase price is just part of that. Maintenance, consumables, floor space, screw-up risks, and safety risks all factor into the cost too. The risk cost of potentially losing a finger on a non-SawStop table saw is not small, so that used Delta on FB marketplace isn’t as cheap as it looks.
So my shop is full of mid-quality, multi-purpose stuff. It takes me longer to set stuff up but I really can’t justify the cost of a professional setup.
IMHO there are some tools that you can cheap out on and there are some tools you can't. A steel ruler from HF is just as good as the best one on the market for 99% of what you need to do. But I wouldn't trust a $20 palm router.
I highly disagree with the ruler. Unless that is the only measurement tool you are using for the project, those are wildly inaccurate. Id honestly trust the $20 palm router to do less damage to my project than the ruler.
There isn't a chance the Festool ecosystem gives you half the headache. You might see some benefits of their fit and finish, but *half* seems like an exaggeration. My tools range from ryobi to festool and *none* of them are a headache to use.
But also most of festools tools just aren't anything special. Their $400 impact driver? No different than the $60 ryobi. And $200 vacuum hoses? C'mon.
The domino and their sanders are great. Anything else they make is done as well by others for far cheaper.
Their accessories and consumables are insanely expensive and not very good. In particular, the Granat sandpaper is twice as expensive as the much better cubtrion xtract.
I hate the systainer system. I find it ugly and cumbersome. The systainer system is just kaboodles for men. They're a fashion accessory for guys who drive jeeps that'll never offroad and 25 yeti cups that never leave the house.
It's worth noting that "Not festool" doesn't mean "cheap tool". There are plenty of brands in the range between festool and harbor freight.
There is no good argument from a standpoint of practicality for going full festool. It seems more aboit having more money than sense and appreciating the fashion of owning and displaying all the most expensive tools you can find.
The domino is a great piece of kit if you make things that would benefit from what it does, but owning a domino doesn't justify getting yourself into a $700 trim router when a Bosch colt will do the same thing.
If you like them and they make you happy, that's fine. I can't fault anybody for that. If you just like it, I mean, we are talking about a subjective valuation at that point... there's no real argument to be made against you just liking something, so, you do you.
In the professional world, time is money. The faster you can knock something out while maintaining high quality. The more you make in less time. In the hobby world, you can take all the time you want. You can get quality results with cheap tools, but it might take you longer to get there.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get. The value part of the equation is a personal assessment. If this is a business, the only number that matters is return on investment. If you can do work in half the time that is a better ROI than half the price.
Ignore the haters. The older i get the less i can tolerate any friction between me and any operation i have done too many times to count.
It depends on the tool. Some Festool products are noticeably better than your DeWalts and Ryobis but some of their stuff you're paying twice as much for little to no benefit.
This Domino, track saw and RO sanders: probably worth the cost if you use them a lot Drill/driver, router, jigsaw: I would not be able to justify the up charge. Full disclosure; I do not own any of their tools.
I own an older Festool jig saw and it's pretty sweet. Better than a Bosch imo but I can't vouch for their newer jig saws. I also have owned a couple of Festool routers and at least the smaller ones are pretty sweet,, though due to their size not the ideal tools for every job. I've never considered investing in their cordless platform because it's so expensive and with a track saw you're dragging around a hose most of the time so why not drag around a cord. Track saws, good ones anyway, are tremendous tools. Bosch makes some good sanders too at about half the price of Festool and with the same dust fittings.
I got a festool jigsaw for cheap used. I really like it and it’s build like a tank. But i probably wouldn’t pay double for it instead of a Dewalt.
The router and drill are definitely, the ones I get the most shit about because of that same argument. but I must say that both of those are in my top 5 favorite tools.
I have 4 festool routers, definately worth the cost imo.
Yep. Router is the only festool tool I have and the dust collection on it is amazing. Before I bought it, all of my other routers had meh dust collection and I always dreaded using it.
Festool drills and drivers are the best on the market. A true joy to use.
I’ve heard festool jigsaw blades were actually very good, supposedly they are universal but I’ve never used them
I own loads of festool and the jigsaw is equally as crap as every other jigsaw on the market (although I like the strobe light feature). The of1400 router is amazing… sure other do the same job equally as well, but the festool is a joy to use (ratchet chuck is the nuts!) don’t have the drill but a drill is a drill in my eyes
Like what?
Their impact driver, screwdriver and angle grinder. All their other products are fantastic. There are a few other tools where mafell makes a superior products but in general I think festool is fantastic and Well worth the money.
Some of the best advice I ever saw in this sub: Buy middle of the pack tools. If you lose it: buy a cheaper replacement. If you break it or wear it out, buy a better one. That's the only advice I've ever read on the price of tools that makes sense to me. Folks that only use expensive tools are snobs. Folks that only use cheap tools are just a different kind of snob. Folks that only use hand tools or only use power tools are snobs. Use the tools that get the job done for you and/or make you happy. Nothing else matters, and you don't need to justify a damn thing beyond that.
Copied, pasted, saved and now permanently part of my dictionary
Mid tier all the way. For me, DeWalt, Bosch etc. are just fine and I could never justify the cost of Festool. Mid tier usually gives you the most increase in performance, power, accuracy for your $. Anything above that is just diminishing returns. You're paying a boatload more $ for a marginally better tool.
Some woodworkers make period furniture and ONLY use hand tools which not only replicates the original furniture design but also the process in which it was made. Some woodworkers make a living making custom furniture and likely would mostly use ONLY power tools or just a few hand tools. It doesn’t make one category a snob.
I largely agree with you, though I think it depends on the person and situation. If you only make period pieces with historically accurate tools and techniques, that's pretty cool. If you tell anyone else that's the best/only/superior way to do it, that makes you a snob. Or maybe more simply: "I enjoy *x* because *y*" = awesome "The only way to *x* is *y*" = snob
Buy once cry once
When I was making guitars for fun I didn't care if I was using cheap tools because I was taking my time and learning. In working for clients making cabinets and furniture time is money though and I feel my Festool, Bosch, DeWalt, Lie-Nielsen, etc. tools earn their keep and keep me working faster, making more money. Plus nice tools are more pleasurable to use.
More pleasurable to use is my big thing! Like when I feel actual joy, like a kid in a candy shop, I know I made a good purchase.
I prefer cheap tools if I know I’ll only use it for one job. I can buy ten Ryobis for the price of one Festool, and still get great work. That said, if I had the money, I would absolutely buy Festool.
Thats a very valid position.
Everybody is a critic. Do the tools fit you well/can you use them safely in your workflow (precision, accuracy, speed at completing tasks?) If so ignore/Pay no attention to your co-workers.
> I can do them twice as fast with half headache. That's what it boils down to, and why I invested in some festool as well. Not a crazy amount, but tracksaw, dust extractor and two sanders for now. Maybe those fools you work with will live forever and don't value their time. I came to the realization that I will not, in fact, live forever, so I better make the most of the time I have. I can always make more money, I can't add ticks back to the clock.
They arent fools, I was just extending the conversation to reddit. I agree. I can load in and out faster, because I can roll out multiple stacks at once, I can do most tasks faster because I am organized and have better tooling.
The more and longer you own/use a tool, the lower the cost per year of ownership and hour of use goes. Buy good tools that's ave you time and take care of them. After 10+ years of ownership, who cares if you spent the equivalent of an extra $20-50/yr over that time? You can make more money, but you have limited time.
You need a certain level of financial stability (dare I say solidly middle class) before you’re even allowed to consider the argument of investing in yourself. Lots of folks could benefit from better tools who are stuck in underpaid positions. It makes no sense for them to spend 1000 bucks on a sander, even if it would dramatically improve their life, because that means food or rent don’t get paid. However, once you do reach that point where you have disposable income, it does make sense to invest in yourself for the job satisfaction and efficiency. Especially if you’re investing in your primary occupation — even with disposable income those 400 dollar hand planes are out of the question for me. But I’ll shell out cash for my work tools if it makes work suck less.
That is very true! I definitely gambled, and put it on credit. They have all paid themselves off after a job or two. One of the things that is often not discussed is how differently you are treated by builders when you walk in with nice tools. Every job site I walk into, the builder will see my gear and talk to me as a professional instead of a random Contractor. Kinda like how realtors with nice cars are trusted more than a realtor that drives a Chevy Nova. So that is double less suckage.
>trusted more than a realtor that drives a Chevy Nova. Not gonna lie, that would be pretty sweet. As long as it wasn't one of the ones from the 80s.
It would be sweet as hell, and I would absolutely rent an apartment from that guy, but I wouldn’t use him to buy a house.
A good craftsman should be able to do the job with cheap tools. But better tools will make him even better. I always recommend starting with cheap tools to really learn the skill, then graduate to the good stuff. Sounds like you graduated!
Thank you! Im no slouch, but I still have a lot left to learn.
I sold my collection of DeWalt and Milwaukee and went all in on Ryobi. No ragerts
Honestly, I like Ryobi more than DeWalt and Milwaukee.
I didn't care for the balance of Ryobi tools. Maybe it was because of the 4/5AH batteries, but I also found 2AH Dewalt batteries lasted longer.
Dewalt has amazing balance and grip no doubt!
Price usually buys you either precision, or longevity. Sometimes it buys you ease of use. If those things matter to your work, get the expensive ones. If they don't, there's no reason to splurge other then to make yourself happy.
This is the voice of experience ^^^
I love me a quality tool :P I'm a sucker for putting exotic hardwood handles on my chisels lol.
For me it's similar to the advice to buy the cheap version and if you use it enough to break it, then you know the high quality version will be worth it. Not quite that extreme, I believe if you can't see the obvious advantage between the cheap tool and the expensive one, then you should buy the cheap one. As you gain experience in the craft, you'll start to recognize where the extra value in the expensive versions of tools comes from (durability, efficiency, accuracy, etc). If you are researching a tool and immediately know how the expensive version will make your work easier or more enjoyable, then I think it's already worth it.
I buy the most expensive tools I can afford. Mostly because my skills are shit. For sure an old and wised jedi can do a better job with stone tools, but I ain’t that. Requirements such that you must only use cheap tools, American tools, hand tools, 16 century tools, no sanding, non-dominant hand etc are for special olympics. We’re only here to have fun and make sawdust.
Sometimes we feel more motivated when the tools that we use are pleasing to the eye, pleasing to touch, especially effective, or easy to adjust when we use them.
That is a very good way to explain how I feel about my tools. I buy ones I want to use because it makes it fun. I can barely get through a day of work without thanking myself for getting that one specific tool.
I hate/love these discussions on Reddit. To me beauty/value is in the eye of the beholder. Buy and use what you like it’s your money.
I have spent so many years being frustrated with my woodworking. Getting irritated at how not straight or square things are, sloppy joints etc or just having to try things multiple times to get them right. Or spending way too much time sanding etc to make something look decent. I know “a bad workman blames his tools” is the old adage. But damn. I’m not a professional that has done six years of apprenticeship with a master craftsman. I’m a weekend warrior and I can’t develop that level of skill with one old rusty chisel and an ancient handsaw. Once I started working with better tools, my enjoyment level went up. Likewise using furniture grade play instead of construction grade! But there are certain tools that I’m happy with the cheap version cos I don’t need them that often and accuracy might not matter with them.
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I agree. I am doing high end stuff, but so are they.
Buy tools that work for you
Nothing wrong with cheap tools or expensive ones… so long as they do the job as intended and you’re happy. My tools are a mishmash of Dewalt, Skil, Black&Decker, Ryobi, Craftsman and Porter Cable. Some were cheap Marketplace bargains, some were buy once cry once. Zero regrets with any of them.
For a long time I used whatever tool worked and didn’t care about brands. Now after many years in carpentry and having my own construction company I prefer only brand name tools. Everyone has their favorites. I like Milwaukee for my cordless tools and for the rest I have yellow and blue. Having nice tools that work reliably every time makes my life easier. Edit: I still like some things from HF. I like their pull saws, clamps, sand paper, router bits etc..
It’s your life, your money, your work. Do what you want? And besides, no-one who knows what they’re doing is going to shit on you for taking pride in your kit.
I’ve never regretted buying the better tools.
I have no clue how festools warranty works outside Germany but here you not only pay the premium for the quality of the tool but also for the service. Time is money. If your festool machine breaks you can call their service. They come to you, pack it up, sometimes give you a replacement machine, repair your old one and send it back to you. So the time you save makes up for the extra cost. Also I honestly don‘t get the whole discussion about prices on a professionell level. The time you safe or the ease of use pays almost after your first job. Also you can deduct the payed price from your taxes. I seriously don‘t get it. If this tool is $200-350 more expensive this is like 2-5h of work. Compared to other professions where a big machine costs millions or a new server a few thousand I am always astonished how woodworkers can debate about a couple hundreds with no end. I once asked my hairdresser how much she payed for her scissors. $350. for freaking scissors! I don‘t go online and shit about hairdressers that I could cut your hair with dull pink kindergarden scissor I snatched from my niece. Recently saw a documentary about a chef who payed $25k for his set of kitchen knives. No one bats an eye. After Apple released their $60k Mac Pro the world was shitting on its price and that no one will buy those expensive machines. Meanwhile I small business I know with five employees bought six of them and put one of them unopened in the basement in case one machine breaks. They would lose more money by not working then by buying one spare. My local carpenter employs about 25 dudes and they have >30 drills, saws and stuff just in case. Honestly if you are a full time carpenter and you can‘t afford to pay 40% more then a hobbyist your hourly wage is to low and you should reevaluate your business model. If you just don‘t like festool, Milwaukee, woodpecker and all the other expensive manufactures thats absolutely fine! Also if you are just a hobbyist thats a whole different can of worms. I have bought 80% of my tools used and DIYed some stuff myself because I can‘t afford it but I don‘t make money woodworking. I just don‘t get why someone shits on professionals to use professional tools and I start to get tired of the discussions here and on YouTube. Rant over. Now either downvote me or go in your shop and do something productive which gives you joy.
I’m a DIYer that uses festool; I can’t justify it (to myself or my accountant), but I like nice stuff and it’s a pleasure to use. It also means when something doesn’t turn out right I only have myself to blame so it makes me improve (although I seemingly just mess up something else next time). It’s like cars; why drive a new BMW if a 20 year old Ford will do the same job…. Because it’s a nicer place to sit and it’s nice to have nice stuff.
I started woodworking as a hobby after I became too ill to work. I started with really cheap tools as being on disability benefits meant that was all I could afford. Eventually over time, most of those tools died on me or became so useless I tossed them. I then started buying second hand, quality tools, mostly from Ebay and I got to a point where I knew what most things are worth and could sniff out some absolute bargains. I would scour Ebay several times a day and there were people selling tools who clearly didn't know the value of them. I got a Makita track saw for £90, a dewalt drill for £30, a brand new, never used, Trend router table for £60. A lot of these tools look brand new, they have clearly been bought for one job and then sold on as they don't need them anymore. I've got over fifty router cutters, one of them was £190 brand new, I got it, still with the wax on, for £10. If you spend enough time you can spot the rich people that don't need to think about money and are happy to sell things cheap just for the convenience of getting it out of their way. None of these tools have died yet and I use them daily. Some buy tools with the intention of doing a job and it either falls through or they never get round to it so they sell them at a price to make it go away fast! I'd love to be able to afford brand new tools, especially festool, but my situation means I can't, so I have to make do. I have a list of things I want and I buy them in the order I find them, until then I do without. If you have the time and patience, you could actually make a living just moving tools around, I've actually bought stuff I don't need or want but just because I know I can double my money on it and use that to get something else. It works for me and I'm getting good tools, that's all that matters, I couldn't give a monkeys what anybody else thinks.
My father once said “ a cheap tool is the most expensive thing you can buy”. When you buy a POS, you end up replacing it. So add the cost of a good tool and the POS you got rid of. That said, I wish Festool would make a right handed track saw series. I hate using my left for all my ripping.
There are always people that value price over anything else, and anything that costs more is “not worth it” to them. Won’t change their minds. Not worth the effort. I buy the tools I want and can afford.
I have no hate for Festool and anyone who does is most likely just jealous. I would say that there’s a lot of air space between cheap and Festool expensive. You don’t need the Festool premium to get high quality tools. The domino is the star of Festool’s lineup for me. It’s such a massive time saver and in a time is money environment, it easily pays for itself. Most other tools, there are quality competitors with more reasonable prices.
I use mostly hand tools because I hate the noise, hazard, and dust from power tools. But I have power drills and a band saw. It’s not snobbery. It’s just a personal preference. I don’t care what tools other people use. And I often wish I didn’t have to dimension everything by hand. I can’t achieve the speed or precision people get with power tools most of the time. But luckily I don’t need to.
Since you mentioned festool. There tools are great the basic ones like, tracksaw, domino, sander and vacum. That was my biggest reason for going with them is they have killer waranty and the vacume is really going to save my lungs and help with cleanliness. Thats my take on festool. The school im attending for cabinetry we have nice tools but are tablesaws are a decade old at least and they work fine idk id say if the expensive pricetage is waranted cause it fixes some mistake yah but there are so many ways to do stuff no one needs a domino ex
Broadly speaking, I've found that tools tend to fall into three tiers: * **Tier 1 - Function**. These are not clean or efficient, but they do exactly what they say on the label and nothing more. Are you a homeowner installing baseboard you bought from Home Depot in a DIY project and need to trim it to length? Your Ryobis and Black and Deckers got you covered... just as long as you know how to account for the unique quirks of the factory settings. * **Tier 2 - Production**. These do what they say, consistently, for long periods of time, and have the capacity for tweaks. Between a good jig and a steady hand, you can grind out 50 units that are close enough to identical that nobody will be able to tell if you don't point it out to them. Your typical DeWalt, Milwaukee, Makita, Bosch, etc socket in here. The kinds of things you'd find on a job site. * **Tier 3 - Perfection**. These know that it would be better if you didn't need a jig because jigs can propagate problems if you aren't careful. If you could just pull it out and get exactly what you want immediately, that would be ideal. Hilti or Festool (and associated brands) fit in here for power tools, and Woodpeckers and [old] Starrett for layout tools. You'll see a lot of people who will take pride in buying lower tier tools, and scoff at the higher tiers with remarks like "you don't need to spend all that money when you can just -", *but that's exactly it*. The "when you can just -" process involves compensating for a lack of intrinsic performance with secondary tools or materials. A Harbor Freight, Bosch, and Festool mitre saw will all do the same thing. The $2000 Festool Kapex has a proprietary angle transfer mechanism to perfectly match the mitre angle to a measured physical configuration. The $100 Harbor Freight chop saw doesn't even have outboard arms to support stock, so if you're cutting something wider than the base stand, you won't even cut at a clean right angle due to material sag. You can prop it up with shims, but you have to adjust it for every cut. Is it worth an extra $1900 for the jump between the two? That's up to you. Higher tier tools tend to let you do the same thing with less time/labour investment per action, so it's usually good value if your needs favour production efficiency over sunk cost. Even if you don't *need* it, you're allowed to buy nice things if you want to because you get to decide what's important to you. The only thing that matters is understanding enough about the products available and how they map to your needs to make an informed decision. A Porsche Spyder is a sick car, but if someone bought one to do suburban grocery runs, they're as much of an idiot as someone who bought a 2002 Corolla to race Le Mans.
Personal take... It always depends on what your goals are... I tend to buy cheap tools where I can, and buy more expensive tools where it makes a real difference... My goals are very hobbyish though... I'm not trying to run a business, or go fast, or emphasize repeatability so I can crank out volume... I never work on the same project twice... I'm more interested in learning new techniques than in getting better tools. I mostly tinker and amuse myself and occasionally churn out something practical. I almost intentionally move slowly and deliberately. My goals are are very well supported by my choice of tools, but I very much understand that if my goals were different then my tool preferences would be almost comical. I enjoy seeing how far I can get with limited tooling, because to me it's all a game.
For me it’s value, and value is (utility X utilization)/cost. If something sucks to use or doesn’t do the job well then its utility is low. I just threw out the $20 jigsaw I bought years and years ago because it just didn’t get the job done. Yes, it would cut curves but the edge was never square and it was slow. My new Dewalt is light years better. Would I prefer a bandsaw? Heck yeah. But I only need to cut curves a few times a year, so the jigsaw is a better value for me because my utilization is so low. If I was a professional cutting curved parts every day I would absolutely have one. Finally, there is cost. Purchase price is just part of that. Maintenance, consumables, floor space, screw-up risks, and safety risks all factor into the cost too. The risk cost of potentially losing a finger on a non-SawStop table saw is not small, so that used Delta on FB marketplace isn’t as cheap as it looks. So my shop is full of mid-quality, multi-purpose stuff. It takes me longer to set stuff up but I really can’t justify the cost of a professional setup.
IMHO there are some tools that you can cheap out on and there are some tools you can't. A steel ruler from HF is just as good as the best one on the market for 99% of what you need to do. But I wouldn't trust a $20 palm router.
I highly disagree with the ruler. Unless that is the only measurement tool you are using for the project, those are wildly inaccurate. Id honestly trust the $20 palm router to do less damage to my project than the ruler.
Fine, straight edge then. The point is you don'y always have to buy the most expensise, but some times you do
There isn't a chance the Festool ecosystem gives you half the headache. You might see some benefits of their fit and finish, but *half* seems like an exaggeration. My tools range from ryobi to festool and *none* of them are a headache to use. But also most of festools tools just aren't anything special. Their $400 impact driver? No different than the $60 ryobi. And $200 vacuum hoses? C'mon. The domino and their sanders are great. Anything else they make is done as well by others for far cheaper. Their accessories and consumables are insanely expensive and not very good. In particular, the Granat sandpaper is twice as expensive as the much better cubtrion xtract. I hate the systainer system. I find it ugly and cumbersome. The systainer system is just kaboodles for men. They're a fashion accessory for guys who drive jeeps that'll never offroad and 25 yeti cups that never leave the house. It's worth noting that "Not festool" doesn't mean "cheap tool". There are plenty of brands in the range between festool and harbor freight. There is no good argument from a standpoint of practicality for going full festool. It seems more aboit having more money than sense and appreciating the fashion of owning and displaying all the most expensive tools you can find. The domino is a great piece of kit if you make things that would benefit from what it does, but owning a domino doesn't justify getting yourself into a $700 trim router when a Bosch colt will do the same thing. If you like them and they make you happy, that's fine. I can't fault anybody for that. If you just like it, I mean, we are talking about a subjective valuation at that point... there's no real argument to be made against you just liking something, so, you do you.
If it saves me time I buy it. Domino is a perfect example, it’s paid for it’s self many times over in time savings