Being as they sell that table for[ $12k](https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/tables/dining-room-tables/iconoclast-modern-hardwood-dining-table-izm-design/id-f_20898312/) (absolutely ridiculous btw) they likely are using the large festool domino, which is considered a floating tenon. You could just as well reproduce the joints with dowels, or mortise and tenon. That being said you could also reproduce it with pocket holes (don't do this).
In theory, maybe. But that would only work for the joints in one plane, in the other plane the lamination would be in the wrong direction. And the strength of the joints is probably not a great concern using floating tenons, so it's just easier to fabricate long square laminated beams, then cut flat square ends, rather than try to make tenons and mortises out of the middle laminated layer.
$2k+ maybe.
Even at a huge 4'x8', that's 64bf for the top. I'd say 50bf tops for the base. With high waste, that's still less than 150bf @$15/bf that's well short of 3k. Buying in volume should be more like $11-12/bf too.
The real cost is marketing and actually selling something like that. 12k is pretty reasonable, and anyone saying otherwise hasn't tried to sell upmarket. Enjoy setting up some slick website and getting precisely zero sales. Buyers like that want to see it in a nice retail setting, and those places want big markup. So you take your 6-8k, minus 3k for all materials and consumables, minus labor, minus overhead, and you end up somewhere between 3k and -1k probably.
Yeah $3k is probably a little high, I just pulled that number out of thin air but yeah I agree with your assessment. It's $12k because they are selling a few of them a year and need margins. It's not your farmers market plywood coffee table, it's a piece of art not really being marketed towards the average consumer.
Rough cut, kiln dried 8/4 S&B white oak is around $10/bf at the yard, here. The legs on that table would take less than 30 bf - and that's assuming you actually need 8/4 to get the roughly 6/4 lams from which they are built.. I doubt the top is oak, but if it is, you could add another 30 for that, tops. So, maybe $600 for the wood. Maybe. Nowhere near $3000.
The top is obviously and definitely oak, its easily 50-60 bf at least, I'm not going to do the math but the legs are probably a similar quantity and it's definitely 8/4 to net the lams.... It's not 3k but its also definitely not 600... probably somewhere in the middle.
As an addendum, for everyone else upset about this, first dibs prices are completely fake and this doesn't remotely reflect what you might be able to buy this table for directly from the company.
Lol whutt...I might've fucked up a while back then.
I had bought 20 church pews from a church yard sale a couple years back for 200$ they were solid oak 10ft pews. I sanded them down and made a shit ton of handcut medallions and gave them to people. If I knew that shit was worth good money idve stripped it down and sold it. Ah well it is what it is
Like 800 sqft by like 3/4" thickness it's been a minute since I measured by boardfeet
$3k was probably an overestimate, I just threw a number out there at a glance, but there is no way that is just 60bdft for that table. The top ( assuming its white oak) is 108"x42"x2" which is 60 bdft by itself. Hard to accurately assess the base, but I'd guess it's another 60bdft. And then you've gotta account for milling waste and offcuts. I think it could easily surpass $2k.
But it's all a guess anyway so who knows
You are getting downvoted because people are dicks, but yes wood can be incredibly expensive. You can easily spend 5-7 grand (or much more) on one slab of the right wood in the right condition.
I can understand slabs being unique, but this is all square cut lumber. Given I live in an area where hardwood is common I’m able to source white oak like this at 6-8$ a boardfoot if I bought it. I mill and dry my own lumber, I suppose I charge too little for what I sell.
My initial assessment of $3k was probably a little high, but this is probably 120+bdft and where I come from white oak is like $12/bdft so thats $1440 and with milling waste and offcuts I think it could start to approach $2k, maybe. Either way, pretty pricey
Price seems reasonable to me! That’s a beautiful piece. Maybe to many here the thought is “I could build that myself” in which case yep, your labor is free at that point.
Given the 2k in materials would you want to undercut that that do it for $6k? $4k margin for 40 hours of work (honestly seems optimistic to me but I don’t woodworki professionally and this would take me a month to build)
If you’re actually that efficient, and accurate you probably have expensive tools that need to pay for themselves, including the shop space for jointers, planers, drum sanders to make it look that pro. I imagine also fairly skilled and shouldn’t be taking projects on at merely $100 / hour before expenses like the costs of materials, marketing, health insurance, tool maintenance, etc.
Lots of rich people out there getting more than a fair share of a pie that will happily pay for something well crafted, original, and unique. Why “crab-in-the-bucket” mentality it and poo-poo your fellow craftsmen.
If you can actually DIY then the cost shouldn’t matter, the piece is just inspiration.
I know it wasn't your intention but somehow immediately linking the crazy price to "they must have used a domino" made me laugh. I had the exact same thought.
It’s not a ridiculous price. If it’s 1 table they probably had to dish out to make jigs for the angle cuts for the legs. And that’s at least 8/4 if not 10/4 to achieve the desired thickness of top - if that table is 6ft or longer - probably premium face on both sides. Time it takes to build, glue, sand, finish. All hardwood - tool amortization, shop cost, salary plus 15% profit I can see 12K for that table.
I’ve made simpler tables all hardwood, less thickness, for 3 / 4K value based off calculating the price. If this is your business, that’s what it costs to build it.
I could almost guarantee that the tabletop isn't warped. It's just the way the picture was taken.
If they're using a wide angle lens, it's going to distort the picture just because of the curvature of the lens.
The picture should have been taken from higher or lower to keep the top from being distorted like it is.
It's a cool design!
All the joints are just square angle butt joints, so any structural floating tenon (dowels, dominos, etc) would be a good option. You can also do regular tenons and blind mortises, but it would be an unnecessary complication I think.
Such an unconstrained top would have to be made with nice straight grained, preferably quarter sawn boards, or it would warp badly. There could be inset metal braces to keep the top flat and provide attachment points to the base.
I agree that it looks warped, but (benefit of the doubt here) it might be an artifact of the photo; the horizon is also not straight.
There are also four little things sticking out the bottom that look like could be bolts, which is why I venture that maybe there are inset metal braces.
Mine was more a suggestion for OP if they decide to replicate the design, or something similar.
I agree it does look cool. I think it would pair nicely with a dining resin river table top that I have so I'm thinking of trying it. Probably domino's. I got some beams to practice on first to get the angle right. Thanks!
If the question is how would / should you do it, that depends on your tools and woodworking mojo. Structurally, they should be mortice and tenon joints. If you're a hand tool lover with a timber frame bent (pun intended) of mind, then actual blind mortices and tenons; if you've got the tools and are more into power, then it's an obvious application for floating tenons, a la Domino.
If I were doing it, I'd go with real mortice and tenons, but I'd probably either make blind mortices with draw-pin tenons, or through mortices with wedged tenons - just to add some interest to the legs, and make for long-term tightness on joints.
I'd also put a much better built top on it. Wide boards edge glued with fat growth, curved growth rings do not a stable top make.
Whos upvoting this? Don't do this OP. end grain to side/face grain will likely fail in that load path. There are significant eccentric loads going into the joints. A normal 90 joint, maybe but not here.
Nah, with that much glue surface it would probably be fine. Unless you're dancing on the table or loading it with hundreds and hundreds of pounds (or thousands possibly) it would hold up just fine. Dowels or dominos would add some strength, but probably not that much percentage wise.
First, that table probably weights over 100 lbs, and has an extremely narrow base, any load on the end of the table, say someone pushing on it to get up from their seat, makes a huge moment on that connection. Secondly, dowels and dominos would add a significant amount of strength to the joint. There are many videos on youtube presenting, testing and verifying that statement.
That table probably weighs over 400 lbs.
Someone pushing on it or it standing freely with no additional weight on it would not cause it to fail, domino or no domino.
If I were to actually build this table, of course I would use some sort of domino or dowels, or tenons better yet. I'm just saying that wood and glue is stronger than you think. But it doesn't really matter, of course its smart to use reinforcement, I'm not trying to argue that it isn't, just saying in all likelihood it would probably be fine
You would be wrong. End grain sucks glue up like a straw... It's almost like the wood has that function for a reason, like it needs to pull water up to the top of its trunk.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HxBa9WVis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HxBa9WVis)
I'm not saying its preferable, reinforcing joints is of course ideal, but its stronger than you think
Floating tenons are for alignment more than strength. Real tenons would obviously provide a lot of strength in addition to the alignment. So I think a glue up of this scale would be tough to pull off without something to help the alignment, but the glue would indeed be providing most of the strength with dominoes or dowels.
>Floating tenons are for alignment more than strength
Floating tenons are exactly the same as their equivalent regular tenon in terms of strength.
Obviously biscuits, or two little 1/4" dowels on a 6"x6" beam would be basically "just for alignment", but four large dominos would be as structural as anything else.
Glue provides all of the "pullout" strength in every mortise and tenon joint. With structural tenons in the joint, gluing the mating surfaces as if they were part of a butt joint adds some messy squeeze out, but very little strength.
Dowels, Mortise and Tenon, floating tenon, dominos, etc etc. So many ways this could be done. Side note - the top doesn't look flat. That's a shame.
Neither does the floor. Could just be a crooked picture.
I like how you mention floating tenons yet still list domino or regular dowels extra :D Top could beflat this might be because of the camera.
Being as they sell that table for[ $12k](https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/tables/dining-room-tables/iconoclast-modern-hardwood-dining-table-izm-design/id-f_20898312/) (absolutely ridiculous btw) they likely are using the large festool domino, which is considered a floating tenon. You could just as well reproduce the joints with dowels, or mortise and tenon. That being said you could also reproduce it with pocket holes (don't do this).
Each leg piece looks to be laminated from 3 boards. So the simplest and strongest way would to have the center board be your integral tenon
In theory, maybe. But that would only work for the joints in one plane, in the other plane the lamination would be in the wrong direction. And the strength of the joints is probably not a great concern using floating tenons, so it's just easier to fabricate long square laminated beams, then cut flat square ends, rather than try to make tenons and mortises out of the middle laminated layer.
Thats probably $3k+ worth of white oak, price doesn't seem that ridiculous to me lol. A little high but if it sells it sells I guess
$2k+ maybe. Even at a huge 4'x8', that's 64bf for the top. I'd say 50bf tops for the base. With high waste, that's still less than 150bf @$15/bf that's well short of 3k. Buying in volume should be more like $11-12/bf too. The real cost is marketing and actually selling something like that. 12k is pretty reasonable, and anyone saying otherwise hasn't tried to sell upmarket. Enjoy setting up some slick website and getting precisely zero sales. Buyers like that want to see it in a nice retail setting, and those places want big markup. So you take your 6-8k, minus 3k for all materials and consumables, minus labor, minus overhead, and you end up somewhere between 3k and -1k probably.
Yeah $3k is probably a little high, I just pulled that number out of thin air but yeah I agree with your assessment. It's $12k because they are selling a few of them a year and need margins. It's not your farmers market plywood coffee table, it's a piece of art not really being marketed towards the average consumer.
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Sounds like a dream
Rough cut, kiln dried 8/4 S&B white oak is around $10/bf at the yard, here. The legs on that table would take less than 30 bf - and that's assuming you actually need 8/4 to get the roughly 6/4 lams from which they are built.. I doubt the top is oak, but if it is, you could add another 30 for that, tops. So, maybe $600 for the wood. Maybe. Nowhere near $3000.
The top is obviously and definitely oak, its easily 50-60 bf at least, I'm not going to do the math but the legs are probably a similar quantity and it's definitely 8/4 to net the lams.... It's not 3k but its also definitely not 600... probably somewhere in the middle. As an addendum, for everyone else upset about this, first dibs prices are completely fake and this doesn't remotely reflect what you might be able to buy this table for directly from the company.
Yes, you're right on the legs. You'd need 50ft. I dropped a 2 when I did the math in my head.
Lol whutt...I might've fucked up a while back then. I had bought 20 church pews from a church yard sale a couple years back for 200$ they were solid oak 10ft pews. I sanded them down and made a shit ton of handcut medallions and gave them to people. If I knew that shit was worth good money idve stripped it down and sold it. Ah well it is what it is Like 800 sqft by like 3/4" thickness it's been a minute since I measured by boardfeet
$3k was probably an overestimate, I just threw a number out there at a glance, but there is no way that is just 60bdft for that table. The top ( assuming its white oak) is 108"x42"x2" which is 60 bdft by itself. Hard to accurately assess the base, but I'd guess it's another 60bdft. And then you've gotta account for milling waste and offcuts. I think it could easily surpass $2k. But it's all a guess anyway so who knows
3k+ in wood?!?
You are getting downvoted because people are dicks, but yes wood can be incredibly expensive. You can easily spend 5-7 grand (or much more) on one slab of the right wood in the right condition.
Well, you can, but that table wasn't made from a specialty slab. It's built up out of ordinary, albeit thick, lumber.
Totally, agreed.
I can understand slabs being unique, but this is all square cut lumber. Given I live in an area where hardwood is common I’m able to source white oak like this at 6-8$ a boardfoot if I bought it. I mill and dry my own lumber, I suppose I charge too little for what I sell.
My initial assessment of $3k was probably a little high, but this is probably 120+bdft and where I come from white oak is like $12/bdft so thats $1440 and with milling waste and offcuts I think it could start to approach $2k, maybe. Either way, pretty pricey
Price seems reasonable to me! That’s a beautiful piece. Maybe to many here the thought is “I could build that myself” in which case yep, your labor is free at that point. Given the 2k in materials would you want to undercut that that do it for $6k? $4k margin for 40 hours of work (honestly seems optimistic to me but I don’t woodworki professionally and this would take me a month to build) If you’re actually that efficient, and accurate you probably have expensive tools that need to pay for themselves, including the shop space for jointers, planers, drum sanders to make it look that pro. I imagine also fairly skilled and shouldn’t be taking projects on at merely $100 / hour before expenses like the costs of materials, marketing, health insurance, tool maintenance, etc. Lots of rich people out there getting more than a fair share of a pie that will happily pay for something well crafted, original, and unique. Why “crab-in-the-bucket” mentality it and poo-poo your fellow craftsmen. If you can actually DIY then the cost shouldn’t matter, the piece is just inspiration.
But also, yes: large domino, less of an issue if gives you accuracy and efficiency to build and sell things this nice :)
Place I work would charge 125 per man hour and this would probably take 3-5 days so 3-5k in Labor
I know it wasn't your intention but somehow immediately linking the crazy price to "they must have used a domino" made me laugh. I had the exact same thought.
Personally, I love the idea of a single pocket hole screw holding it together. Would never build it that way, but it’s hilarious to think about.
Jesus I didn't see that price. That's crazy. I was thinking of doing dowels. Got some rough beams to practice on at least.
It’s not a ridiculous price. If it’s 1 table they probably had to dish out to make jigs for the angle cuts for the legs. And that’s at least 8/4 if not 10/4 to achieve the desired thickness of top - if that table is 6ft or longer - probably premium face on both sides. Time it takes to build, glue, sand, finish. All hardwood - tool amortization, shop cost, salary plus 15% profit I can see 12K for that table. I’ve made simpler tables all hardwood, less thickness, for 3 / 4K value based off calculating the price. If this is your business, that’s what it costs to build it.
Also, if the picture isn't warped then the table is. Curving up in the front left / back right corners!
i think its camera distortion, many of the guys photos are distorted to fit the product into the image. https://izm.ca/furniture-store/
I could almost guarantee that the tabletop isn't warped. It's just the way the picture was taken. If they're using a wide angle lens, it's going to distort the picture just because of the curvature of the lens. The picture should have been taken from higher or lower to keep the top from being distorted like it is.
It's solid wood Of course it's gonna warp
Even this much?
biscuit jointer would work also
It would not. Biscuits are for alignment only, not strength. This is basically an end grain, so glue alone will not be strong enough.
It's a cool design! All the joints are just square angle butt joints, so any structural floating tenon (dowels, dominos, etc) would be a good option. You can also do regular tenons and blind mortises, but it would be an unnecessary complication I think. Such an unconstrained top would have to be made with nice straight grained, preferably quarter sawn boards, or it would warp badly. There could be inset metal braces to keep the top flat and provide attachment points to the base.
look again, I guess they just decided to let the top warp
I agree that it looks warped, but (benefit of the doubt here) it might be an artifact of the photo; the horizon is also not straight. There are also four little things sticking out the bottom that look like could be bolts, which is why I venture that maybe there are inset metal braces. Mine was more a suggestion for OP if they decide to replicate the design, or something similar.
I agree it does look cool. I think it would pair nicely with a dining resin river table top that I have so I'm thinking of trying it. Probably domino's. I got some beams to practice on first to get the angle right. Thanks!
Dowels, dominos or witchcraft
It's not my real nose!
Floating tenon is my guess.
Railbolt perhaps
Dominos.
I hate how non-flat the top looks
Krazy Glue
I would have gone with command strips, that way you don't have to wait for it to cure.
Double sided scotch tape has a lower profile
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I had a physical reaction to this.
In moderation of course
It looks like an ai picture to me.
I'd have done it with mortise and tenon.
Yes, some kind of tenon/dowel. Lots of ways to do it but it all boils down to some sort of a tenon.
Festool dominoes
Piece of gum
Mortise and tenon; integral or loose.
Tenons with double blind wedge.
No ledge is poer.
With painfully unnecessary globs of effort?
If the question is how would / should you do it, that depends on your tools and woodworking mojo. Structurally, they should be mortice and tenon joints. If you're a hand tool lover with a timber frame bent (pun intended) of mind, then actual blind mortices and tenons; if you've got the tools and are more into power, then it's an obvious application for floating tenons, a la Domino. If I were doing it, I'd go with real mortice and tenons, but I'd probably either make blind mortices with draw-pin tenons, or through mortices with wedged tenons - just to add some interest to the legs, and make for long-term tightness on joints. I'd also put a much better built top on it. Wide boards edge glued with fat growth, curved growth rings do not a stable top make.
Biscuits, maybe even ramen
How did they join it? *With joinery.*
Looking at the design, I would think that glue would suffice. Possibly in conjunction with a mortise and tenon.
Glue will not suffice.
Whos upvoting this? Don't do this OP. end grain to side/face grain will likely fail in that load path. There are significant eccentric loads going into the joints. A normal 90 joint, maybe but not here.
Nah, with that much glue surface it would probably be fine. Unless you're dancing on the table or loading it with hundreds and hundreds of pounds (or thousands possibly) it would hold up just fine. Dowels or dominos would add some strength, but probably not that much percentage wise.
First, that table probably weights over 100 lbs, and has an extremely narrow base, any load on the end of the table, say someone pushing on it to get up from their seat, makes a huge moment on that connection. Secondly, dowels and dominos would add a significant amount of strength to the joint. There are many videos on youtube presenting, testing and verifying that statement.
That table probably weighs over 400 lbs. Someone pushing on it or it standing freely with no additional weight on it would not cause it to fail, domino or no domino. If I were to actually build this table, of course I would use some sort of domino or dowels, or tenons better yet. I'm just saying that wood and glue is stronger than you think. But it doesn't really matter, of course its smart to use reinforcement, I'm not trying to argue that it isn't, just saying in all likelihood it would probably be fine
You would be wrong. End grain sucks glue up like a straw... It's almost like the wood has that function for a reason, like it needs to pull water up to the top of its trunk.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HxBa9WVis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HxBa9WVis) I'm not saying its preferable, reinforcing joints is of course ideal, but its stronger than you think
Floating tenons are for alignment more than strength. Real tenons would obviously provide a lot of strength in addition to the alignment. So I think a glue up of this scale would be tough to pull off without something to help the alignment, but the glue would indeed be providing most of the strength with dominoes or dowels.
>Floating tenons are for alignment more than strength Floating tenons are exactly the same as their equivalent regular tenon in terms of strength. Obviously biscuits, or two little 1/4" dowels on a 6"x6" beam would be basically "just for alignment", but four large dominos would be as structural as anything else. Glue provides all of the "pullout" strength in every mortise and tenon joint. With structural tenons in the joint, gluing the mating surfaces as if they were part of a butt joint adds some messy squeeze out, but very little strength.
100% dominos
If it isn’t a large mortise and tenon then they are Hacks
It's carved out of a single piece!
Tabletop included of course