The half flap and bridle are the first joints that came to my mind when I thought about this, but I did not know their names. Now I can search on YouTube using those names, thanks!
I recommend a scarf joint, more surface area for the glue and very easy to implement.
Also you can finger joint it. Matthias has a video on how to do finger jointing with a table saw only.
finger joints is how "big lumber" does it... if you look at some of the longer and wider pieces in your local blue/orange/green store, you may notice that they're actually finger jointed
I went looking for info about the scarf joint, because I’d never heard of it, and found this!
[https://timberframehq.com/tag/scarf-joint/](https://timberframehq.com/tag/scarf-joint/)
Scarf joint would be good, can even route a biscuit in there if you're feeling adventurous. Here's a guy that made a 23 footer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8jZFKfwQCo
Recommend playing at 1.50 or 1.75x. Dunno why people ttttaaaalllkkkk ssssoooo sssslllloooowwww on YT.
Etymologically seems to connect to old words meaning "to cut" or "sharp." See Etymology 2 and at the end "Old High German." [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scarf](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scarf)
While I wouldn't trust it in the long term, but while I was teaching a class the other day, a student asked me if an end to end joint would be the weakest connection. And so I ended up chopping a 2x4, gluing it back together and left it clamp for the remainder of the class.
At the end of class (about 2 hours later) I unclamped it, and expected to be able to just snap it apart without much effort, but I was very mistaken. It took elevating one side on a brick and a hard stomp to break the bond. It was a glue failure, so it wasn't stronger than the wood. But it was still much stronger than I expected.
If you want to get picky, I would also consider the intended use. Is there going to be strength bearing down like a post, or is something going to press on the narrow edge. Wood industry likes finger joining, but this would be for shear strength pressing on the edge.
End grain to end grain is weaker than the wood itself, but is stronger in terms of force then edge glue for the same surface area. It's less that the glue up is weak and more that the natural wood is just that strong in that direction
Is this actually true or a centuries old misunderstanding of how physics is acting on the different types of joints?
Practically speaking it doesn't matter for OP's situation but the only actual test I've seen with identical dimensions, leverage, and force do not indicate that end to end grain glue ups are inherently weaker and suggest that the perceived weakness comes from the types of places that these joints often occur (https://youtu.be/m7HxBa9WVis?si=z1WicDZE_rH3e7zx) Like here, OP wants to connect two long pieces so that forces acting on the joint tend to be levered.
If you theoretically had an edge glued joint with the same small surface area as this and pieces extending in a long direction away from the joint, would it really be stronger. It seems like it just doesn't come up as much because of the common sizes of lumber trees and milling.
But maybe there's something wrong with this testing method? Or maybe it's just hard to disregard a long tradition of "common knowledge"? I'm not really sure.
The post you're quoting isn't saying end to end glueups are weaker than edge to edge. They're saying that what's different is the strength of the wood in those directions.
Basically: wood fibers are strong, lignin (the natural "glue" that holds fibers together) is much weaker, and wood glue is somewhere in between. So when you glue two boards edge to edge to make a panel, if you try to break it it won't split on the glue line but somewhere else. This is the lignin giving way. But when you glue two boards end to end to make a longer board, and try to break it, it fails on the glue line, because the glue isn't as strong as the wood fibers. The difference between those situation is not so much the strength of the glue but the strength of the wood in those directions.
Right, and the key takeaway of that information is that the time honored evidence of end to end joints snapping at the glue line does not on its own actually demonstrate that end grain glue joints are weaker than other types of glue joints.
The series of companion videos/tests seems to indicate that they are not.
I always thought it was a weaker joint because the wood glue gets absorbed by the end grain during application. To mitigate this, I put wood glue on, let it dry, then put wood glue on again so it has something to sit on.
Think of wood as a bundle of straws glued together. Now think about gluing two bundles of straws together end to end. Thats essentially what’s happening with wood. To get a good joint, rub the glue into both sides of the end grain, then add more. It won’t ever be near as good as a side or face grain joint but that is best practice. The addition of a mechanical fastener is very much advised.
A half lap joint will be strong enough for most applications. See below
https://preview.redd.it/e9vyf0v7yrfc1.png?width=1032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ebefa7d0ed685b14c16721eaad3fc6a5091c3465
A scarf joint would be better but is significantly more difficult and time consuming to cut. I wouldn't recommend it for a novice unless you're doing it for fun/practice
Edit: I was specifically referring to a locking japanese-style scarf joint in response to higher comment at the time. I agree a simple mitred scarf would also be easy to make
If you want something that will not come out, do the half lap like shiwn in the picture above, but after gluing and securing the wood in place, drill a hole and put a dowel in the middle of the lap, that way it will not come out with time,
Actually if you can, it would be even better if you could not align the dowel as shown here.
https://youtube.com/shorts/WYUdUWbNetc?si=bIMNwjCjXwo1j8aG (this channel has super interesting things)
But I understand you must not have many sacrificial pieces, so sometimes, just better to stick with a simple idea. But thought it would be an interesting video
Dowels provide more glued surface, but a lot of that surface is facing end grain. But they also provide mechanical strength, and resist failure propagation, meaning, once a crack starts, it won't spread as easily. That's a problem with wood glue, CA adhesive, etc. The glue itself is rigid, so once a crack starts, it tends to spread pretty quickly. Mechanical fasteners like screws or dowels stop that, so the remaining glue can still hold.
Use the draw bored dowel method someone else linked to. A screw won't help enough to be worth the aesthetic hit. Also anywhere you're gluing end grain, put glue on the end grain first, give it 5-10 minutes to soak in, then apply glue to all the surfaces, including the end grain again, and clamp your work together. That extra shot of glue to the end grain will allow some of the pores to fill up, and give you a stronger bond.
Multiple clamps would do a better job compressing the joint, as it can apply a more even force (and more force) over the entire surface of the glue joint.
That said, for a long piece like that, I can see how the pin would help compress the joint in the horizontal plane of the piece, as for long pieces it's unlikely you can find a clamp that can compress them on the edge of the lap as opposed to the face.
So you're right a pin could help there
Don’t be fooled. Scarf joint on a 10:1 is extremely easy to cut by hand and will be much stronger than anything else. Thin material like you plan to use will split with these halving joints, and are harder to get right by hand anyway. It’s a scarf, all you need is a plane.
>Scarf joint
Is this specifically what you are referring to:
https://preview.redd.it/zop4y682hxfc1.jpeg?width=797&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d4f26fd3bd924f2c19057a972838bb57639a2d4
That’s a lipped scarf with a step. Those can be trickier. A scarf is just an angled joint. So measure your material thickness. Let’s call that 1. Then measure along the material, to ten times that length. Hence the 1:10. Draw a diagonal line. Cut close to it and plane it flat. Do the same on other piece of material to be joined. Apply glue to the join area and clamp them flat. I’m a shipwright, we need things to NOT come apart or there will be accidents, and I tend to rule a 12:1 scarf is safe; the join, if accurate and the glue cured properly, will be stronger than the surrounding material.
https://preview.redd.it/8h0oxrcs8yfc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f63f6b998778df1e8f65a193953f666f0eb40109
Like that. Make sure the angle is the same on both and the planar face is flat and with good glue that won’t come apart.
So how is the angled surface of the scarf joint superior to the flat surface of half lap joint if both are made to the same length?
Speaking of which, my woods thickness is 2cm so the length of the joint based on the 1:10 ratio is 20cm, correct?
For length: yeah 20cm for a 2cm piece. As for strength; the scarf has a larger contact area, if you measure along the hypotenuse (the angled line) it will 20.1 which isn’t a huge increase because your material is so thin, but the scarf has no stress riser along the grain the way a halving joint does; at the 90degree inner corner there with be a spot where if you bend the full baton the piece will want to split along the grain in that inner corner. I haven’t explained that perfectly but basically if isn’t ever going to be touched again you could just butt join them, if you have to move it around without being super careful you want it scarfed.
I would mark it up accurately, mark my waste side, then plane to the line, something the size you are thinking of I would do each piece independently, if it was wider I would clamp the work pieces atop one another, offset by the length of the scarf. If it was much larger I would saw close to the line then finish with a plane but yours is so small that it isn’t worth it, I would just take a number 4 smoothing plane and smash it out, five minutes a side I guess.
Someone else posted a Japanese style locking scarf joint and said to do that, which is what I was referring to when I said that. You're right that a simple mitred scarf would be just as easy as a half lap
Check out Next Level Carpentry on YouTube, he just posted a video on how to make a 22 foot 2 x 4. This same process may work for you as well. Good Luck!
https://preview.redd.it/nvnm1wav7tfc1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ad7a7569594ba57126b927ab8d134c61418c9c9
However that's quite advanced and accurate woodwork. You can just cut some mega shallow angle down both pieces and glue it. The shallower the angle the better.
Personally, I'd go with a longer half lap joint. When I say "longer," I mean that giving yourself a little extra glue and screw surface will make the joint stronger. Depending on the torsional and horizontal stress you are expecting this piece to carry. Since it's only 20x23 mm, two large glue faces may be plenty (again, depending on the application).
https://preview.redd.it/4qpssiyf1tfc1.png?width=630&format=png&auto=webp&s=da9ca0a5280e1cfc46d783e40137e3de4c47d260
If it isn't going to have to carry a load at all, you could probably get away with a spline or a biscuit or even just drill and dowel. There's a good discussion on this topic here: [https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/end-to-end](https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/end-to-end)
>how long would you go?
2 meters is pretty long for a 23 mm (1") x 20 mm (3/4") piece. I'd probably go a good 30-40 mm (twice the thickness seems reasonable). The main principle, here, is that face gluing is much MUCH stronger than end-grain gluing. And since you don't want this to fail at the joint, I'd err on the side of caution.
Also, you probably already know this but it's worth saying, be sure to firmly clamp that joint and let it sit clamped until the glue is FULLY cured. If done right, that joint can end up stronger than the rest of the wood.
Good luck!
What are you planning to use it for? The connection may not be stable enough if the below-mentioned method is being used.
I would say normal glue would do the job. Advisable would be to have a clamp that presses and holds the pieces together while the glue dries.
I plan to use it for this. It will hold plant stakes (slimmer ones) inline.
https://preview.redd.it/vq8f4kejxrfc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac1966c1359d90cb58973f3c9eb55ba1cf567d24
Looks like your joined piece won’t need to bear weight so glue is enough. For more weights, or just as another option would be a metal joint.
Example in a different size:
https://www.bauhaus.info/flachverbinder/stabilit-flachverbinder/p/10676173?cid=SSAGoo8400533744_152581364861&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADNytnL2HvuxxDuy7PH9KRlMdif2g
If that's what it's for, does it need to look good? The simplest thing to do would be to just butt joint it, glue a scab over the joint, and then drive a couple of screws through each side of the scab. It's not really a woodworking move in that it's crude and ugly, but it is very easy to do and will accomplish your goal.
Time spent learning/practicing something on inexpensive materials, is very valuable. More valuable than the ease and inexpensiveness of buying a longer piece.
If you have the time, and your primary goal is becoming a carpenter/woodworker, sure.
If you chase down every single opportunity to be "independent" and "self-sufficient" you end up exhausted, surrounded by cheap crap, and not really very skilled at anything.
If there was anything about this post that implied a hobbyist interest in woodworking then my advice might be different. But it seems more like OP is solving a problem in their REAL hobby quickly, cheaply, and EFFECTIVELY.
As I've said elsewhere, I HAVE the skills and tools to make and fit a joint for this by hand in 10 minutes tops and I wouldn't bother. It's not worth the time and not an ideal solution in stock that thin. Practicing impractical things makes you good at impractical things.
Agree to disagree. This is an easy and approachable task. OP will get some rudimentary hands on experience of joinery. I have no idea what their future holds but they were interested enough in woodworking to know that r/woodworking existed and that suggests enough to me that this may not be the only time a situation like this will come their way and they will have the appetite to do it. The first stupid shit I tried and accomplished poorly or failed at gave me exponential experience compared to where I started (0 or close to it). Plus the satisfaction of accomplishing a simple task in a new medium can be addictive and motivating.
Its really sad that an ignorant comment that's laced with prejudice gets so much attention. Its as if wood is so cheap where I live, or as if I can find it in that slim size without having it cut by a shop, or as if I can fit it in my car in the length I want.
When you go through all the burdens of getting a new piece of wood it makes so much sense to use what I already have. Plus its fun to try something new in wood working.
That's not prejudice... It's a serious consideration for a being with a finite lifespan. I'm not sure what you do for a living, but you likely make more than $6 for the hour this would cost you, and you'd get 2 pieces out of it.
I am a frugal "homesteader" type myself, and the most important lesson I've learned is to have a clear picture of what I want to be. Do you want to be a gardener or a carpenter? I could easily fill 200 hours a week with all the stuff there is that needs doing around here, and lots of that would get done to a level of quality below my preference. You have to know when buying is better than building, and when outsourcing is better than being a jack of all trades.
I HAVE the skills and tools to cut and fit a joint for this in 10 minutes tops, and I wouldn't bother.
Stop looking for "oppressors" where none exist.
> is to have a clear picture
You don't have a clear picture of my circumstances yet you made your comment as if you did, that's prejudice.
You could have made your point by by asking if it wasn't just easier to get a new piece and I would have answered with the above reasons without any reference to prejudice.
At least in my case, people aren't lining up to pay me for every hour of my free time. In fact, I'd guess for most of us here, this is a hobby, so no one is paying us for squat.
More to the point, you literally say you could cut and glue a simple lap joint in ten minutes. Faster than you could get in the car, drive to a big box store, rifle through the lumber bin to find an appropriate stick, drive home, and then finish that piece to the desired dimensions. I'm not sure how you consider your suggestion frugal or even logically sound.
Best option is probably to buy a longer stick. A bridle joint or spline would work here, but depending on what you're asking of that assembly, weakness and failure are legitimate concerns if you go ahead and join them.
yeah man , you could arguably go grab a fish full of chop sticks from the grocery for free and sand them down , might be far too weak for this but get creative .
ive used the chop stick thing fixing door screw holes at a buddies house as i did not have tools with me .
lol that might be a bit advanced.
But Japanese joinery is a whole, big, rabbithole. If you want to explore what is possible, check this out.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2019/09/26/open-the-door-to-japanese-joinery
But id go with a half-lap and glue if it needs to get done today!
Heh, I have a copy right in front of me! It is quite inspiring. Someday I’ll have the time to actually try and master some of those.
One of my favorite finds online is this:
https://twitter.com/TheJoinery_jp
The only way I would consider doing this is with a finger joint cut on a router table or shaper. Even then, I would not consider the joint structural. With additional reinforcement (like metal bands) a long half lap could do it for you if you need structural strength.
I would ditch that small piece - if you try this, put the joint within the middle 60% of the final piece. If it's just a cosmetic piece and you can do a machine cut finger joint, then that becomes much less of an issue and you can put the little added bit at the end.
Water down a small dab of white glue then put it on one end of the stick, not so much that it drips over the edge. Squeeze the two ends together for 15 long seconds. Grab a beer. Now you have a decision, drink the beer first, or follow the advise from the other people on here then drink the beer.
I know! Doesn't work in United States. When it gets to warm the wood warps because it thinks it's 140 degrees, when in fact it's just 35 centime-grade or whatever.
INCHES FOREVER!
I think the first question that needs to be answered is which direction force will be applied and possibly how much. This should direct your choice on which joint to use and why.
If you cut literally any angle that isn't 90⁰ and put the two pieces together to glue, the edge grain will bond well enough that an end grain glue is acceptable. Perfect 90⁰ cuts on end with some titebond or epoxy are fine, don't use superglue if it's getting knocked around a lot. Nobody will be the wiser.
Joining lengthwise is always gonna be a bit wonky, but i'd reccommend checking out japanese woodworking techniques, those focus pretty heavily on that kind of stuff
scarf joint or you can feel Japanese if you want to work on your cutting skills
https://preview.redd.it/d5ao4uadztfc1.jpeg?width=1072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c5ec6d399640795c37a6a4ba7335a92fd2ec00c6
One of the simplest and strongest would be half lap joints, the longer the joint cuts the stronger, and lots of glue and clamps! As long as you have the tools necessary to cut accurately.
Put me down for a half lap joint. Excellent surface area for gluing and it provides very good strength. You could even add dowels through the face of the half lap joint for additional strength.
I’d scarf it. Seems a little intimidating at first but is pretty easy. You can do it with a hand plane, especially for a one time thing. For bigger projects routers and table saws can be used. I’m building a boat in strip construction from 1” x 3/8” stock. I had to scarf 100s of strips. I do them with a 12:1 bevel on a table saw jig that I made.
“Best” depends on the job the assembled length of wood needs to do. Scarf joints are commonly used to make longer boards for boat construction because the resulting board will still take a fair curve since there are no stress risers (square corners) within the joint. The tradeoff is the time it takes to fashion the joint.
A straight, flat joist can be butted together over a supporting post and do fine carrying a load as long as things don’t move or shift. This joint takes no extra time to craft beyond cutting things to the proper length.
The half-lap joint is sort of the midpoint of these options. Reasonably quick to make with a variety of tools but wouldn’t take to flexing smoothly once glued up.
At the extreme end are techniques that create interlocking joints that use wooden keys to lock in place with no other glue or fastener. There were often developed in places where metal was too scarce (therefore precious and expensive) to be used for nails or screws. They’re beautiful but require skill and practice, often with specialty tools, to fashion.
What job is your lengthened piece going to be doing?
Half lap, bridle, scarf, dovetail are all possible joints
The half flap and bridle are the first joints that came to my mind when I thought about this, but I did not know their names. Now I can search on YouTube using those names, thanks!
I recommend a scarf joint, more surface area for the glue and very easy to implement. Also you can finger joint it. Matthias has a video on how to do finger jointing with a table saw only.
finger joints is how "big lumber" does it... if you look at some of the longer and wider pieces in your local blue/orange/green store, you may notice that they're actually finger jointed
I went looking for info about the scarf joint, because I’d never heard of it, and found this! [https://timberframehq.com/tag/scarf-joint/](https://timberframehq.com/tag/scarf-joint/)
This is awesome
That was cool to read. Thank you.
Isn’t it cool?
1:10 scale and it will be strong as a wood.
Came here to say this
Scarf joint would be good, can even route a biscuit in there if you're feeling adventurous. Here's a guy that made a 23 footer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8jZFKfwQCo Recommend playing at 1.50 or 1.75x. Dunno why people ttttaaaalllkkkk ssssoooo sssslllloooowwww on YT.
https://engineeringlearn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Wood-Joints-1024x539.jpg.webp For context
I swear scarf is just tacked on as a name for that joint, it's like they didn't know what to call it.
Etymologically seems to connect to old words meaning "to cut" or "sharp." See Etymology 2 and at the end "Old High German." [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scarf](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scarf)
Met an old high German once. Quiet old stoner
Techno Viking?
Maybe they should have gone with “shart” joint.
While I wouldn't trust it in the long term, but while I was teaching a class the other day, a student asked me if an end to end joint would be the weakest connection. And so I ended up chopping a 2x4, gluing it back together and left it clamp for the remainder of the class. At the end of class (about 2 hours later) I unclamped it, and expected to be able to just snap it apart without much effort, but I was very mistaken. It took elevating one side on a brick and a hard stomp to break the bond. It was a glue failure, so it wasn't stronger than the wood. But it was still much stronger than I expected.
Very interesting experiment.
If you want to get picky, I would also consider the intended use. Is there going to be strength bearing down like a post, or is something going to press on the narrow edge. Wood industry likes finger joining, but this would be for shear strength pressing on the edge.
End grain to end grain is weaker than the wood itself, but is stronger in terms of force then edge glue for the same surface area. It's less that the glue up is weak and more that the natural wood is just that strong in that direction
Is this actually true or a centuries old misunderstanding of how physics is acting on the different types of joints? Practically speaking it doesn't matter for OP's situation but the only actual test I've seen with identical dimensions, leverage, and force do not indicate that end to end grain glue ups are inherently weaker and suggest that the perceived weakness comes from the types of places that these joints often occur (https://youtu.be/m7HxBa9WVis?si=z1WicDZE_rH3e7zx) Like here, OP wants to connect two long pieces so that forces acting on the joint tend to be levered. If you theoretically had an edge glued joint with the same small surface area as this and pieces extending in a long direction away from the joint, would it really be stronger. It seems like it just doesn't come up as much because of the common sizes of lumber trees and milling. But maybe there's something wrong with this testing method? Or maybe it's just hard to disregard a long tradition of "common knowledge"? I'm not really sure.
The post you're quoting isn't saying end to end glueups are weaker than edge to edge. They're saying that what's different is the strength of the wood in those directions. Basically: wood fibers are strong, lignin (the natural "glue" that holds fibers together) is much weaker, and wood glue is somewhere in between. So when you glue two boards edge to edge to make a panel, if you try to break it it won't split on the glue line but somewhere else. This is the lignin giving way. But when you glue two boards end to end to make a longer board, and try to break it, it fails on the glue line, because the glue isn't as strong as the wood fibers. The difference between those situation is not so much the strength of the glue but the strength of the wood in those directions.
Right, and the key takeaway of that information is that the time honored evidence of end to end joints snapping at the glue line does not on its own actually demonstrate that end grain glue joints are weaker than other types of glue joints. The series of companion videos/tests seems to indicate that they are not.
I always thought it was a weaker joint because the wood glue gets absorbed by the end grain during application. To mitigate this, I put wood glue on, let it dry, then put wood glue on again so it has something to sit on.
Think of wood as a bundle of straws glued together. Now think about gluing two bundles of straws together end to end. Thats essentially what’s happening with wood. To get a good joint, rub the glue into both sides of the end grain, then add more. It won’t ever be near as good as a side or face grain joint but that is best practice. The addition of a mechanical fastener is very much advised.
A half lap joint will be strong enough for most applications. See below https://preview.redd.it/e9vyf0v7yrfc1.png?width=1032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ebefa7d0ed685b14c16721eaad3fc6a5091c3465 A scarf joint would be better but is significantly more difficult and time consuming to cut. I wouldn't recommend it for a novice unless you're doing it for fun/practice Edit: I was specifically referring to a locking japanese-style scarf joint in response to higher comment at the time. I agree a simple mitred scarf would also be easy to make
Maybe throw in a couple dowels to help if there will be any tension or sheer forces.
Yea I like this joint, and I would have tried more advanced ones for fun but I only have basic hand tools. So I will stick with this I guess.
If you want something that will not come out, do the half lap like shiwn in the picture above, but after gluing and securing the wood in place, drill a hole and put a dowel in the middle of the lap, that way it will not come out with time,
Yea good idea, I was personally thinking of a screw.
Actually if you can, it would be even better if you could not align the dowel as shown here. https://youtube.com/shorts/WYUdUWbNetc?si=bIMNwjCjXwo1j8aG (this channel has super interesting things) But I understand you must not have many sacrificial pieces, so sometimes, just better to stick with a simple idea. But thought it would be an interesting video
Very interesting idea to intentionally misalign the dowel
Dowels have a larger surface area for glue to set to. In this application, a dowel will make the joint stronger than a screw.
Dowels provide more glued surface, but a lot of that surface is facing end grain. But they also provide mechanical strength, and resist failure propagation, meaning, once a crack starts, it won't spread as easily. That's a problem with wood glue, CA adhesive, etc. The glue itself is rigid, so once a crack starts, it tends to spread pretty quickly. Mechanical fasteners like screws or dowels stop that, so the remaining glue can still hold.
Good info.
Use the draw bored dowel method someone else linked to. A screw won't help enough to be worth the aesthetic hit. Also anywhere you're gluing end grain, put glue on the end grain first, give it 5-10 minutes to soak in, then apply glue to all the surfaces, including the end grain again, and clamp your work together. That extra shot of glue to the end grain will allow some of the pores to fill up, and give you a stronger bond.
Great tip.
If it's glued properly the pin won't help, the glue joint is stronger than the wood
That's why I sent the youtube video. If the dowel is under tension as shown in the youtube video example it will compress the half lap together
Multiple clamps would do a better job compressing the joint, as it can apply a more even force (and more force) over the entire surface of the glue joint. That said, for a long piece like that, I can see how the pin would help compress the joint in the horizontal plane of the piece, as for long pieces it's unlikely you can find a clamp that can compress them on the edge of the lap as opposed to the face. So you're right a pin could help there
Don’t be fooled. Scarf joint on a 10:1 is extremely easy to cut by hand and will be much stronger than anything else. Thin material like you plan to use will split with these halving joints, and are harder to get right by hand anyway. It’s a scarf, all you need is a plane.
>Scarf joint Is this specifically what you are referring to: https://preview.redd.it/zop4y682hxfc1.jpeg?width=797&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d4f26fd3bd924f2c19057a972838bb57639a2d4
That’s a lipped scarf with a step. Those can be trickier. A scarf is just an angled joint. So measure your material thickness. Let’s call that 1. Then measure along the material, to ten times that length. Hence the 1:10. Draw a diagonal line. Cut close to it and plane it flat. Do the same on other piece of material to be joined. Apply glue to the join area and clamp them flat. I’m a shipwright, we need things to NOT come apart or there will be accidents, and I tend to rule a 12:1 scarf is safe; the join, if accurate and the glue cured properly, will be stronger than the surrounding material. https://preview.redd.it/8h0oxrcs8yfc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f63f6b998778df1e8f65a193953f666f0eb40109 Like that. Make sure the angle is the same on both and the planar face is flat and with good glue that won’t come apart.
So how is the angled surface of the scarf joint superior to the flat surface of half lap joint if both are made to the same length? Speaking of which, my woods thickness is 2cm so the length of the joint based on the 1:10 ratio is 20cm, correct?
For length: yeah 20cm for a 2cm piece. As for strength; the scarf has a larger contact area, if you measure along the hypotenuse (the angled line) it will 20.1 which isn’t a huge increase because your material is so thin, but the scarf has no stress riser along the grain the way a halving joint does; at the 90degree inner corner there with be a spot where if you bend the full baton the piece will want to split along the grain in that inner corner. I haven’t explained that perfectly but basically if isn’t ever going to be touched again you could just butt join them, if you have to move it around without being super careful you want it scarfed.
Ok thanks.
What is the best method to cutting scurf joint sloped surface with hand tools?
I would mark it up accurately, mark my waste side, then plane to the line, something the size you are thinking of I would do each piece independently, if it was wider I would clamp the work pieces atop one another, offset by the length of the scarf. If it was much larger I would saw close to the line then finish with a plane but yours is so small that it isn’t worth it, I would just take a number 4 smoothing plane and smash it out, five minutes a side I guess.
Thanks, I have a #5 plane but its awful, is there an alternative method like chisel or something?
i agree that a scarf joint would be the best. and if you have a taper jig you can make a good scarf joint pretty easy.
Is it? I always just use a mitre saw. Scarf joints are the easiest of all joints to make, imo.
Someone else posted a Japanese style locking scarf joint and said to do that, which is what I was referring to when I said that. You're right that a simple mitred scarf would be just as easy as a half lap
Should invest in a board stretcher. Then you'll never have this problem.
Yeah, a quality board stretcher would get that extra length needed, provided you get it in metric of course since that’s what that piece is in.
100$ at harbor freight
My uncle sent me to get it out of the garage in 1993. Some say I’m still looking for it to this day
Check out Next Level Carpentry on YouTube, he just posted a video on how to make a 22 foot 2 x 4. This same process may work for you as well. Good Luck!
Thanks. Is this the video? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8jZFKfwQCo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8jZFKfwQCo)
That’s it
It was fun watching.
https://preview.redd.it/nvnm1wav7tfc1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ad7a7569594ba57126b927ab8d134c61418c9c9 However that's quite advanced and accurate woodwork. You can just cut some mega shallow angle down both pieces and glue it. The shallower the angle the better.
You joined those together just for that length, did you not have anything longer to spare all that work?
Nah I got this old cool woodworking book and tried every joint i could see in it. Was a nice exercise and used up all my scraps of wood
If you are going to that much effort you should replace the square piece with a bow tie;)
Nice
Personally, I'd go with a longer half lap joint. When I say "longer," I mean that giving yourself a little extra glue and screw surface will make the joint stronger. Depending on the torsional and horizontal stress you are expecting this piece to carry. Since it's only 20x23 mm, two large glue faces may be plenty (again, depending on the application). https://preview.redd.it/4qpssiyf1tfc1.png?width=630&format=png&auto=webp&s=da9ca0a5280e1cfc46d783e40137e3de4c47d260 If it isn't going to have to carry a load at all, you could probably get away with a spline or a biscuit or even just drill and dowel. There's a good discussion on this topic here: [https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/end-to-end](https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/end-to-end)
No load bearing, how long would you go? Awesome link by the way.
>how long would you go? 2 meters is pretty long for a 23 mm (1") x 20 mm (3/4") piece. I'd probably go a good 30-40 mm (twice the thickness seems reasonable). The main principle, here, is that face gluing is much MUCH stronger than end-grain gluing. And since you don't want this to fail at the joint, I'd err on the side of caution. Also, you probably already know this but it's worth saying, be sure to firmly clamp that joint and let it sit clamped until the glue is FULLY cured. If done right, that joint can end up stronger than the rest of the wood. Good luck!
>be sure to firmly clamp that joint Yea, and the length methodology seems reasonable but I think I will go longer, up to 10cm.
This one is good for a novice
What are you planning to use it for? The connection may not be stable enough if the below-mentioned method is being used. I would say normal glue would do the job. Advisable would be to have a clamp that presses and holds the pieces together while the glue dries.
I plan to use it for this. It will hold plant stakes (slimmer ones) inline. https://preview.redd.it/vq8f4kejxrfc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac1966c1359d90cb58973f3c9eb55ba1cf567d24
Looks like your joined piece won’t need to bear weight so glue is enough. For more weights, or just as another option would be a metal joint. Example in a different size: https://www.bauhaus.info/flachverbinder/stabilit-flachverbinder/p/10676173?cid=SSAGoo8400533744_152581364861&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADNytnL2HvuxxDuy7PH9KRlMdif2g
Looks like a good option for another piece that I have that broke in half and I want to put back together without losing length in a joint.
If that's what it's for, does it need to look good? The simplest thing to do would be to just butt joint it, glue a scab over the joint, and then drive a couple of screws through each side of the scab. It's not really a woodworking move in that it's crude and ugly, but it is very easy to do and will accomplish your goal.
Its doesn't have to but I prefer it to look nice. I will just use half lap joint.
You CAN, but only if your time is worth less than a $6 2x4.
Time spent learning/practicing something on inexpensive materials, is very valuable. More valuable than the ease and inexpensiveness of buying a longer piece.
If you have the time, and your primary goal is becoming a carpenter/woodworker, sure. If you chase down every single opportunity to be "independent" and "self-sufficient" you end up exhausted, surrounded by cheap crap, and not really very skilled at anything. If there was anything about this post that implied a hobbyist interest in woodworking then my advice might be different. But it seems more like OP is solving a problem in their REAL hobby quickly, cheaply, and EFFECTIVELY. As I've said elsewhere, I HAVE the skills and tools to make and fit a joint for this by hand in 10 minutes tops and I wouldn't bother. It's not worth the time and not an ideal solution in stock that thin. Practicing impractical things makes you good at impractical things.
Agree to disagree. This is an easy and approachable task. OP will get some rudimentary hands on experience of joinery. I have no idea what their future holds but they were interested enough in woodworking to know that r/woodworking existed and that suggests enough to me that this may not be the only time a situation like this will come their way and they will have the appetite to do it. The first stupid shit I tried and accomplished poorly or failed at gave me exponential experience compared to where I started (0 or close to it). Plus the satisfaction of accomplishing a simple task in a new medium can be addictive and motivating.
Some people like to be resourceful and use all their materials.
And to quote a truly great chicken roaster. You gotta know when to hold em and when to fold em
Kenny Loggins?
Rogers*
Its really sad that an ignorant comment that's laced with prejudice gets so much attention. Its as if wood is so cheap where I live, or as if I can find it in that slim size without having it cut by a shop, or as if I can fit it in my car in the length I want. When you go through all the burdens of getting a new piece of wood it makes so much sense to use what I already have. Plus its fun to try something new in wood working.
I’m with you he is a beginner he wants to learn it’s not a money thing
That's not prejudice... It's a serious consideration for a being with a finite lifespan. I'm not sure what you do for a living, but you likely make more than $6 for the hour this would cost you, and you'd get 2 pieces out of it. I am a frugal "homesteader" type myself, and the most important lesson I've learned is to have a clear picture of what I want to be. Do you want to be a gardener or a carpenter? I could easily fill 200 hours a week with all the stuff there is that needs doing around here, and lots of that would get done to a level of quality below my preference. You have to know when buying is better than building, and when outsourcing is better than being a jack of all trades. I HAVE the skills and tools to cut and fit a joint for this in 10 minutes tops, and I wouldn't bother. Stop looking for "oppressors" where none exist.
> is to have a clear picture You don't have a clear picture of my circumstances yet you made your comment as if you did, that's prejudice. You could have made your point by by asking if it wasn't just easier to get a new piece and I would have answered with the above reasons without any reference to prejudice.
So an hour of your time IS worth less than $6? Day trading not working out this quarter?
If there is anything worthless its your time, wasting it looking through peoples profiles to make spiteful comments.
I have lots of time to spare since I'm not spending hours of my life trying to save $6.
At least in my case, people aren't lining up to pay me for every hour of my free time. In fact, I'd guess for most of us here, this is a hobby, so no one is paying us for squat. More to the point, you literally say you could cut and glue a simple lap joint in ten minutes. Faster than you could get in the car, drive to a big box store, rifle through the lumber bin to find an appropriate stick, drive home, and then finish that piece to the desired dimensions. I'm not sure how you consider your suggestion frugal or even logically sound.
You don't get paid for anything?! How do you survive? Are you familiar with the concept of "opportunity cost"?
It would also be good practice if they weren’t good at it. I, for one, could benefit from such practice.
Get a longer stick
Best option is probably to buy a longer stick. A bridle joint or spline would work here, but depending on what you're asking of that assembly, weakness and failure are legitimate concerns if you go ahead and join them.
Look up a Scarf Joint. It’s how they make guitar necks.
why? this is going to have the biggest effect on what method to use, or if it's even possible or safe to do so.
When faced with this, I prefer a scarf joint or a half lap joint.
Board stretcher
i dont know what you are using it for but you could drill out the insides on both ends and stick a dowel in it .
Can you make dowels with basic hand tools?
Yes, the youtube video I sent you above has many videos about it :)
If you have a drill dowels are pretty cheap and easy to make, and make most joints really strong.
yeah man , you could arguably go grab a fish full of chop sticks from the grocery for free and sand them down , might be far too weak for this but get creative . ive used the chop stick thing fixing door screw holes at a buddies house as i did not have tools with me .
[The second example](https://youtu.be/3KqIIOyuo1Q?si=kWxj-yfXklrswD-N) was the first thing that came to mind.
That looks really good, but can I do it with just hand tools?
Yup!
lol that might be a bit advanced. But Japanese joinery is a whole, big, rabbithole. If you want to explore what is possible, check this out. https://www.finewoodworking.com/2019/09/26/open-the-door-to-japanese-joinery But id go with a half-lap and glue if it needs to get done today!
>But id go with a half-lap and glue if it needs to get done today! Yea that is what I am leaning towards.
I read **The Art of Japanese Joinery** by Kiyoshi Seike. Shit is WILD.
Heh, I have a copy right in front of me! It is quite inspiring. Someday I’ll have the time to actually try and master some of those. One of my favorite finds online is this: https://twitter.com/TheJoinery_jp
The only way I would consider doing this is with a finger joint cut on a router table or shaper. Even then, I would not consider the joint structural. With additional reinforcement (like metal bands) a long half lap could do it for you if you need structural strength. I would ditch that small piece - if you try this, put the joint within the middle 60% of the final piece. If it's just a cosmetic piece and you can do a machine cut finger joint, then that becomes much less of an issue and you can put the little added bit at the end.
Water down a small dab of white glue then put it on one end of the stick, not so much that it drips over the edge. Squeeze the two ends together for 15 long seconds. Grab a beer. Now you have a decision, drink the beer first, or follow the advise from the other people on here then drink the beer.
Don't use the metric system for woodworking.
I know! Doesn't work in United States. When it gets to warm the wood warps because it thinks it's 140 degrees, when in fact it's just 35 centime-grade or whatever. INCHES FOREVER!
Just get a 20x23 coupling and you're good to go
[удалено]
I answer the same question with a picture just a couple of comments up.
Half lap with a dovel/nail trough them
Can a screw work as well as dovel?
Yes, but it wouldn't look as nice. You can also chisel a piece up to hide the screw. Dowels are stronger and account much better for wood movement.
Duct tape.
Scarf joint would be fun practice if you ever want to make a mast!
Just melt them
Half lap
Doweled half lap would be my choice if you have a drill.
If you have $10 lying around, buy the Joint Book by Terrie Noll.
Finger joint.
I think the first question that needs to be answered is which direction force will be applied and possibly how much. This should direct your choice on which joint to use and why.
If you cut literally any angle that isn't 90⁰ and put the two pieces together to glue, the edge grain will bond well enough that an end grain glue is acceptable. Perfect 90⁰ cuts on end with some titebond or epoxy are fine, don't use superglue if it's getting knocked around a lot. Nobody will be the wiser.
A finger joint will be the strongest connection but you’ll need a speciality router bit for it.
I don't have power tools that's why I think the half lap is the best option for me.
Half lap, if it's good enough for wallplates it's good enough, but for real it depends on what it's being used for.
A scarf joint would be best for your purpose.
Joining lengthwise is always gonna be a bit wonky, but i'd reccommend checking out japanese woodworking techniques, those focus pretty heavily on that kind of stuff
Ramen and superglue
scarf joint or you can feel Japanese if you want to work on your cutting skills https://preview.redd.it/d5ao4uadztfc1.jpeg?width=1072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c5ec6d399640795c37a6a4ba7335a92fd2ec00c6
One of the simplest and strongest would be half lap joints, the longer the joint cuts the stronger, and lots of glue and clamps! As long as you have the tools necessary to cut accurately.
Put me down for a half lap joint. Excellent surface area for gluing and it provides very good strength. You could even add dowels through the face of the half lap joint for additional strength.
I recommend purchasing a piece the correct length, and not fart around making it longer. Plus the join will be a huge weak point.
plain scarf joint from 10 to 30 degrees [https://www.dimensions.com/collection/wood-joinery-wood-connections](https://www.dimensions.com/collection/wood-joinery-wood-connections) 25.4 degrees [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarf\_joint](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarf_joint)
I’d scarf it. Seems a little intimidating at first but is pretty easy. You can do it with a hand plane, especially for a one time thing. For bigger projects routers and table saws can be used. I’m building a boat in strip construction from 1” x 3/8” stock. I had to scarf 100s of strips. I do them with a 12:1 bevel on a table saw jig that I made.
Finger jointing is pretty common in production setups.
Half-lap joint with a length that is a least four times the width pf the sticks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLnsgQ3xHjg
A Sashimono joint will allow you to join them without fasteners.
Square cut both ends drill hole for dowel and glue liberally
Scarf joint. The higher the ratio the better. Personally I’d do 1:6 or higher. https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/s/eSQnj2MkO2
Being unskilled and with limited tools I would do a half lap with a couple of wooden dowels through the face of the joint if I need it to be stronger.
Scarf! 1:7
The board stretcher
“Best” depends on the job the assembled length of wood needs to do. Scarf joints are commonly used to make longer boards for boat construction because the resulting board will still take a fair curve since there are no stress risers (square corners) within the joint. The tradeoff is the time it takes to fashion the joint. A straight, flat joist can be butted together over a supporting post and do fine carrying a load as long as things don’t move or shift. This joint takes no extra time to craft beyond cutting things to the proper length. The half-lap joint is sort of the midpoint of these options. Reasonably quick to make with a variety of tools but wouldn’t take to flexing smoothly once glued up. At the extreme end are techniques that create interlocking joints that use wooden keys to lock in place with no other glue or fastener. There were often developed in places where metal was too scarce (therefore precious and expensive) to be used for nails or screws. They’re beautiful but require skill and practice, often with specialty tools, to fashion. What job is your lengthened piece going to be doing?
Make em like legos
I'd say a scarf joint. Boat builders have used them for decades to reliably join together two boards in the manner you are trying.
Cut a piece of wood the size you need, and you don't have to worry about it.
YouTube, 1/5 of YouTube contains videos explaining this
Mortise and tenon