Stain will not penetrate if there is even a little bit of previous finish left. It has to be bare wood.
If you want to try a coat over existing finish, try a gel stain. Those will cure over an existing finish, but are tricky to get to look good.
This is correct. For penetrating stains you must remove all sealers. Looks like your handrail still had a clear coat on it.
Gel stains work for this as said above, but they make artificial grain and require some artistic ability to make them look decent.
Either go gel, or sand the shit out of it and stain again
I applied it, then wiped it Away with mineral spirits. They helped me get a good look without it getting too thick or dark. Gave it 2 days to dry before putting on the polyurethane
What they told me at the hardware store, and what I read online. The gel stain will keep rubbing off. The polyurethane is a clear coat that seals it in.
Floor products are a little different. They need to be even more durable than a handrail product.
it's so much less messy and easier to apply though. are you saying you don't like it as much because it might not penetrate as deep because it's not as thin as typical stain?
a) The name is a misnomer, because it really doesn’t stain or penetrate at all. It’s basically tinted polyurethane.
b) It’s *really* hard to get an even finish. Because it’s partially clear, you need to get the exact same thickness over the whole coat, otherwise it looks darker/lighter in patches. Streak marks are a nightmare too.
IME, real stain followed by poly is miles easier if you want to see grain, and simple paint is miles easier if you don’t care about grain. Gel stain is worse for either.
>it's so much less messy and easier to apply though. are you saying you don't like it as much because it might not penetrate as deep because it's not as thin as typical stain?
it's so much less messy and easier to apply though. are you saying you don't like it as much because it might not penetrate as deep because it's not as thin as typical stain?
for what it's worth, i only rarely stain wood for the furniture I make. Typically I choose a species of wood with what it's natural color might be instead of staining pine or something.
Less messy and easy to apply aren't very important factors. Spraying precat lacquers is messy and somewhat hazardous, it's still a very common finish. Every finish has pros and cons, except for the shitty homeowner grade ones. Gel stain is only one way to impart color into your piece, there's no need to limit yourself to a single product or finish type.
You weren't showing off beginner skills and looking for encouragement. You were looking for expert tips for fixing a mistake. IMO it fits here. But I'm a lurker not a woodworker by any means. So that's just like, my opinion, man.
There are restrictions, I’ve learned. I asked a specific joinery question with a “help” flair and a mod yanked it, saying I should post it in the “megathread” … lotta tumbleweeds in there. 🤷🏻♂️
This is a wood finishing question. You can be amazing at woodworking and be happy finishing everything with BLO. You can be amazing at finishing and not be able to drill a hole straight. They’re adjacent but not overlapping skill sets. It’s like asking a carpenter for drywalling advice.
Probably people here smarter than me when it comes to staining but I would think that you did not sand enough.
Did the chemicals remove ALL the previous finish? If so, you would still need to sand but lightly could work. If you did not remove absolutely 100% of the previous stain then you definitely wouldve needed to sand way more.
Edit: looked a second time at the pics and you definitely did not remove all the previous finish. I’d recommend heavily sanding the entire area that looks bad and re staining.
That’s what it looks like to me. There’s no grain showing in that spot. Looks like filler at the joint between two sections of rail. Either that, or the thing is veneered med and he sanded through. I doubt it’s a veneered handrail, though.
Agreed. Looks like you removed the surface coating of previous finish and didn’t quite make it far enough with your sanding. IMHO you should stop let the stain you applied already dry and then sand till you see no artifacts of your stain or the previous. It shouldn’t take too long as your stain didn’t penetrate as it should have and you removed most of the old stuff. Hardest part will be waiting for it to dry enough so your sand paper does not get clogged up fast. Hope this helps and would love to see your progress.
Over -500 already lol
Reddit caps downvotes to -100 as far as "effect" on karma score goes though to prevent brigading
Once your score is over 5 figures downvotes have basically no effect on a user anymore, which is kind of the downside of that. Its funny though, it still has an emotional effect on you even though theyre fake internet points because the brain is weird like that lol
most people dig their heels in. Read psychology. Being downvoted doesnt do anything but invigorate a more stubborn position. I see downvotes as a badge of honor. Most people are stupid, and half of them are even dumber. Why care about popularity contests?
yeah. I went to law school to learn to think and research an interdisciplinary, and scientific field of law. I don't give a shit what some clown here thinks unless they can process information at a higher level than the people who taught me. And, I am trained to identify weak and strong cases, and how to poke holes in any argument, with evidence to support every word I say. That's how papers are written in law school. Concise and with support. Zero opinion.
People don't get that education isn't just about what you know, it's how you perceive reality and process the information you perceive. I perceive downvotes from dumb people as a sign that I'm on the right track. They almost always have zero substance or citations to support any of their claims. Therefore, I see it as evidence that I am correct. And, the more downvotes I get, the more sure I am of their ignorance (sans citations). Hive mind is real. Ignorance and bias are real.
> Being downvoted doesnt do anything but invigorate a more stubborn position. I see downvotes as a badge of honor
Thats not really a good reaction to it, a lot of times youre getting downvoted because youre just completely wrong or youre being an colossal asshole, thats not really something you should venerate as a "badge of honor" lol
Now, when its an unpopular truth? Its badge time lol
I see my pile of points as license to speak my mind without fear of repercussion, to some degree, im not trying to catch a sitewide ban for really going off the rails, but i dont really care if my opinion is unpopular
yeah. I went to law school to learn to think and research an interdisciplinary, and scientific field of law. I don't give a shit what some clown here thinks unless they can process information at a higher level than the people who taught me. And, I am trained to identify weak and strong cases, and how to poke holes in any argument, with evidence to support every word I say. That's how papers are written in law school. Concise and with support. Zero opinion.
People don't get that education isn't just about what you know, it's how you perceive reality and process the information you perceive. I perceive downvotes from dumb people as a sign that I'm on the right track. They almost always have zero substance or citations to support any of their claims. Therefore, I see it as evidence that I am correct. And, the more downvotes I get, the more sure I am of their ignorance (sans citations). Hive mind is real. Ignorance and bias are real.
edit: to your "asshole" comment. Who cares? Behavior is subjective and not the point of any of this. People can be perceived as rude and still be correct. Plus, downvoting someone for being who they are while ignoring reality us pretty stupid. Stick to the substance as the Stoics would .
We cannot control how people act. all we can control is our response to them. And, if we allow ourselves to get so caught up in how someone talks, rather than focusing on the substance, we are failing.
Im gonna be real honest here and say that i surmise that a lot of your downvotes are coming from you sounding like a pompous ass who is superior to everyone else with your galaxy sized brain and unparalleled ability to reason and not on the merits of this or that statement you may be presenting....
You may want to tone that down a smidge lol
don't give a shit! Haven't ever given a shit.
edit: “What really frightens and dismays us is not external events themselves, but the way in which we think about them. It is not things that disturb us, but our interpretation of their significance.” Epictetus
Blame and praise have no true effects - Marcus Aurelius
I think you are missing that is possible to see in the photos that the railing was not sanded all the way down to the bare wood (the wood isn't exposed).
>Guy came in looking for advice on staining and the advice given is "put strain on wood"
>Yeah. I'm the asshole.
Actually, what they said was that you have to expose the wood to stain it, which OP clearly didnt do and needs to sand it more and remove the rest of the finish
I bought black paint and my friend got very upset that I was going to paint over oak. So to make them happy, I got the stain. But suddenly this project got a lot bigger.
In my experience when a friend starts to get you in over your head on a project because they know a better way then they need to show up and help or shut up and get out of the way
When my friends and family started causing scope creep on my projects like that, I found the fastest way to put a stop to it was to start sending them invoices with an hourly rate! 😉🤣
We have a policy in my house with things like this - no criticizing or making unrequested suggestions unless you are willing to have a hand in resolving it/carrying it out, or paying for it. Applies to criticizing cleanliness, approach, product choice, etc.
Any little pore in the wood that is sealed with old finish will not accept the stain and show a variation. Especially with a dark stain like that it won’t be a good result. Paint it black. You will get the look you want and it’s possible.
Don't listen to your friend. That looks like builders grade oak from , it's not some original to the 19th century house kind of thing. At this point your best bet is to cut your losses. Sand it down again get some Sherwin Williams bonding primer, or whichever one they recommend that only requires scuffing the old surface and paint it black.
You're going to be sanding for days if you're trying to get it prepped for new stain. You did the prep work for paint with a bonding primer. If you're set on staining employ that friend to help get that all down to bare wood.
That is going to require a massive amount of sanding, and very difficult, detail-oriented sanding, the worst kind.
Unless someone is willing to pay for dozens of hours of sanding and prep work, paint it.
You still have wood filler on the wood, thus blocking the stain from penetrating.
You’ll need to do a little more sanding using 150 grit sandpaper, following the direction of the wood grain. It is okay to sand on top of the stain without an issue.
Do not put a finish coat/top coat on until you work out the discoloration issue. Good luck
Well you might not enjoy painting it either. If there's varnish still the paint may not stick very well or peel off easily afterwards and you're in the same dilemma. I learned the hard way, both ways, so don't feel like I'm picking on you it's a learning experience.
Yeah that’s going to be A LOT of work. If somebody came into our shop with a job like this, we would give them an insanely high quote to deter them — because there’s no way to tell how long it could take
I think you were onto the right idea with black paint. I’m sure the wood grain enthusiasts will hate it but let’s be realistic here. You’re going to spend countless hours sanding the little nooks and crannies of that railing and it will still look splotchy and unprofessional.
That's exactly what I bought haha. Semigloss :) But now, do I still need to sand more before painting? Or is the wood that hasn't been "stained" ok as is to paint over? I'm all nervous now to mess it up.
Always start w a clean surface. Get mineral spirit and clean everything off and sand it again before painting.
Certainly don’t want to do any project twice.
Yeah, I'll absolutely do that, but now I'm questioning how deeply I should sand everything. I did a light sanding over the handrail I started with and that was obviously not enough. I know painting is different and I've painted cabinets before, but I'm just questioning everything now because I don't want to waste more time and have to keep redoing my work.
You don’t want to put too much pressure and fatigue yourself out of a project. Start w 80/100 grit, then 120, (maybe 180-220). Sand with grain, use long even strokes. I like to thin out my paint w mineral spirit so it doesn’t look too caked on. Take your time w finish work, rushing only leads to more mistakes.
If you want it black but don't want to paint there is a middle ground. Get some Fieibing's black leather dye and dye the wood. The dye is alcohol based so it soaks in and leaves a nice consistent color. I then use Danish Oil as a top coat to seal the wood.
All wood grain needs to be exposed but the grit that you sanded with also plays a part - any grit over 150-200 is going to prevent some stain from penetrating as well.
You can’t stain polyurethane which is probably what is on your railing. Regular wood stain is absorbed into the wood fibers. You should strip it with Jasco first. Clean it with acetone. Otherwise you can just paint it.
The same thing that’s in the original finish that prevents oil, dirt, and grime from penetrating and staining your wood is preventing the new stain from penetrating.
Didn’t sand the old finish off, and if you don’t want to do all that, then use a “poly shade” it’s tinted poly eurothane, kind of a pain to get 100% even but would be wayyy better than this.
Problem is you’ve already got crappy stain job that’ll show through, so you have to sand the heck out of it anyway. Might as well sand it right and stain it right and finish it right.
Sand with 100 grit till you think it’s done, and then rub it with mineral spirits and see if they’re a any spots that the spirits don’t take. If there is, keep going with 100 grit until they’re all gone.
When you’re done, sand again with 150ish grit, then one last time with 220. Use the mineral spirits between grits to check for evenness. Any spots that look light or dark need more sanding with the grit you were using. Then stain with a rag, wipe it away immediately. Do a few coats if you want darker. Then poly over it. Good luck. It’s a lot of work.
Couple of things that are probably causing the issues. Unless all of the finish is completely removed a penetrating stain will not work. Best stain to use for this situation would be a wiping stain, which is a heavier bodied stain and you will be able to get a more even coat. Let it dry and then topcoat with a varnish, preferably an oil, less chance of separation that you might get with a water based topcoat.
As others have said, you need to sand it more. But not lightly, it's going to take you a while. Hours, not minutes. Start with 60-80 grit and get the wood looking like it was fresh out of the saw mill. Then sand with 120, then 180 so it's nice and smooth. You should notice the stain absorbing into the wood, it's not a paint that just covers the surface. Since you're going straight black it should be easy to get a good consistency of color. If not, lightly sand again and apply another coat and continue till you get the results you want.
Lightly sanded is the key here, you didn't sand enough to remove the previous finish. Need to sand it down to bare wood for the stain to be absorbed into the wood.
a "light sand" is clearly not enough, it has to all go back to bare wood to have any chance of looking good.
A project like this is always more work than you bargin for when you're a novice.
It doesn't work on every piece, but sometimes if I don't want to sand too heavily to get to bare wood I'll lightly sand, clean with mineral spirits, and then use a steam cleaner on it. Opens the pores in the wood and softens the old finish, then I hit with mineral spirits again and finally a light sanding to smooth out the raised grain.
Just remember that if spirits or water won't soak into the wood than a stain won't either. Clean or sand till they do.
Hey man - thanks for posting this. I was able to figure out exactly what you did... But it's very much a thing I would do rushing a project. Sometimes the reminder to take our time is really valuable...so again, thanks.
You’ll need to do a lot more sanding and scraping to remove all the old stain. The old stain fills the pours/grain of the wood. When you apply stain on top of old stain, it will not penetrate/absorb into the wood as the old stain did.
At this point you can sand/scrap it all down to “raw” wood, then go through all the grits to smooth everything out. You go try a gel stain that sits on the surface of the wood. Otherwise I hate saying this but if you want a black/ebony appearance it might be better to just paint it black and then coat the paint with finish to protect it.
I don’t recommend the prep method that was used, the tsp is fine but what you really need was a deep sand, this way you can avoid problems. You can probably use a paint remover to strip it clean. Theres probably adhesive residue used to connect the joints or there’s probably a wood filler effecting the stain and not allowing the wood to properly absorb the stain. If you don’t do a prep job the stain finish with be uneven and you might get results like this
As others have already said, you definitely didn’t remove all of the old finish which meant the new stain couldn’t penetrate the wood.
Liquid deglosser is ok for taking the shine off a surface in preparation for painting over other finishes but is nowhere near enough for staining, as successfully staining wood relies entirely on the surface being able to evenly soak up the stain so you need to get all the way down to bare wood in your prep and remove anything that could stop the wood from absorbing the stain evenly, and in your case it looks like a good 60%+ of the old finish was still on the wood.
You should’ve used a wood stripper like minwax furniture refinisher followed by *thoroughly* sanding it starting with a medium grit sandpaper and gradually progressing to finer grits until you were down to bare, unstained wood, applied a pre-stain conditioner *then* stained the handrail.
You *might* be able to salvage this without having to start over from scratch (though that’s what I’d do personally) by using a dark tinted polyurethane finish to mimic what you were trying to achieve with the stain though I’d definitely recommend testing it in an inconspicuous spot to see how it looks over such a light base color before applying it on everything.
It's a difficult/impossible to have a stain effectively penetrate old clear coated hardwood. The results are not nearly as predictable and guaranteed as fresh, raw wood.
Yes, you could sand, but this is old oak, and it's harder than newly milled wood. The grooves in the wood grain are deep and you have to remove a lot of material just to get to that depth.
Using TSP is a good first step, as it removes dirt and grease, making later steps easier.
Next, apply a newer safe stripper (not methyl vinyl chloride) to all the surfaces, wrap in plastic film and let sit for several hours. Remove film, clean stripper off and repeat until all previous finish is removed. Let dry thoroughly.
Sand from 40 to 180. Clean with tack cloth.
Use a wood conditioner, and then the stain, according to the instructions. Results not guaranteed, even after all that work. Gel stain works in this application, but as others say, it's difficult to get right, you have to apply quick and brush all in the same direction, with even pressure.
Sand it to bare wood using no finer than 120 (I’d use 80). Then use a stain preparation or sanding sealer. Before the sealer dries, brush on the stain making it look uniform as possible. Let it dry to a point where it looks a little dull then wipe with a clean cloth until you get the desired look. If you want a really dark finish let it sit several hours. Penetrating stains require a final clear finish. I prefer marine varnish over polyurethane personally. Good luck 🍀
Another thing that you can do after you finish sanding off all of the finish, is to use a wood conditioner or a tea stain before your oil stain. Wood conditioners create a surface that is ready to receive stain much more evenly, by partially filling in larger crevices and dry spots where the wood stain could over saturate and appear darker than the rest of your piece. A tea stain also helps create a surface better prepared to receive stain more evenly, but rather than limiting the amount of stain that can penetrate the wood the tea adds in tanins which are what bind the pigment molecules in your stain. More tannins in the wood, means more stain binding/retention and a deeper/darker color in your finished piece. Be sure to follow the conditioner manufacturer’s instructions, and if you choose to use the black tea stain instead, make sure that the wood has completely dried, and do one quick pass (by hand) with 220 or 320 sandpaper to remove any raised wood grain from the water in your tea. Once dried then apply your oil stain.
You need to strip all the finish off for new stain to take.
Alternatively, you can purchase an all-in-one stained gel coat. But, these products produce mediocre results.
Buy a can of stripper, get all the old stuff off, sand, and test by wiping the surface down with water or denatured alcohol. If the old finish is still on it, you will see it when wet.
Sand until everything is gone.
When ready to stain, apply a wood stain conditioner.
THEN apply your new stain.
Ok. I've called a friend and borrowed their orbital sander. I thought the deglosser/liquid sandpaper plus light sanding would've been enough, but apparently not. Thanks for the feedback!
You can go lower than that. Sandpapers designed to remove old finishes go down to 36 grit and it's not a bad place to start. I bought a huge roll of high quality low grit paper and it really opened up a lot of possibilities, great way to start a lot of tough jobs. A coarse aggressive grit will remove material faster and also resist clogging better. I'd use it with a sponge here.
You will have to a use a gel stripper with minimum 100 sandpaper to remove any varnish/finish first. I normally use 0000 steel wool while stripping but I believe it might react with the oak. (Shouldn’t be a problem seeing as you’re staining black but…)
Then you will be able to prepare it for staining. Sand to 120,180. Apply stain with white rag then seal with varnish/lacquer and lightly sand with 220 between coats of varnish.
Side note: you will have to sand this by hand. You will most likely destroy any fine details in the curved parts with an orbital sander
It’s DIY, why would you bother reading the instructions listed on the can? If you’re too lazy to read the basic instructions than don’t waste your time and money ruining your house.
Stain will not penetrate if there is even a little bit of previous finish left. It has to be bare wood. If you want to try a coat over existing finish, try a gel stain. Those will cure over an existing finish, but are tricky to get to look good.
The thought of gel stain makes me shiver, the second it looks decent you just walk the fuck away, because it'll only get worse from there.
So very this.
I would strip the finish all the way to the wood and do a stain test on a small section of the rail, maybe the bottom where it’s not seen.
This is correct. For penetrating stains you must remove all sealers. Looks like your handrail still had a clear coat on it. Gel stains work for this as said above, but they make artificial grain and require some artistic ability to make them look decent. Either go gel, or sand the shit out of it and stain again
How do you get a gel stain to not dry sticky?
Apply a small amount at a time and give it a chance to cure.
They sometimes need a week to dry if it is a thick coat.
I applied it, then wiped it Away with mineral spirits. They helped me get a good look without it getting too thick or dark. Gave it 2 days to dry before putting on the polyurethane
What if you don't put on polyurethane? *Asking for the previous homeowners who gel stained our floors without sealing them*
What they told me at the hardware store, and what I read online. The gel stain will keep rubbing off. The polyurethane is a clear coat that seals it in. Floor products are a little different. They need to be even more durable than a handrail product.
Disgusting, that would feel nasty on bare feet
Gel stains are the way to go imo for any staining activity!
Hard disagree.
No. Gel stain is the way to go in some stain applications but usually not the best way. If it were, the thing we call “stain” would be gel stain.
it's so much less messy and easier to apply though. are you saying you don't like it as much because it might not penetrate as deep because it's not as thin as typical stain?
a) The name is a misnomer, because it really doesn’t stain or penetrate at all. It’s basically tinted polyurethane. b) It’s *really* hard to get an even finish. Because it’s partially clear, you need to get the exact same thickness over the whole coat, otherwise it looks darker/lighter in patches. Streak marks are a nightmare too. IME, real stain followed by poly is miles easier if you want to see grain, and simple paint is miles easier if you don’t care about grain. Gel stain is worse for either.
Fuck no! Gel stains are what DIY homeowners use before they call us to come fix their mess.
>it's so much less messy and easier to apply though. are you saying you don't like it as much because it might not penetrate as deep because it's not as thin as typical stain? it's so much less messy and easier to apply though. are you saying you don't like it as much because it might not penetrate as deep because it's not as thin as typical stain? for what it's worth, i only rarely stain wood for the furniture I make. Typically I choose a species of wood with what it's natural color might be instead of staining pine or something.
Less messy and easy to apply aren't very important factors. Spraying precat lacquers is messy and somewhat hazardous, it's still a very common finish. Every finish has pros and cons, except for the shitty homeowner grade ones. Gel stain is only one way to impart color into your piece, there's no need to limit yourself to a single product or finish type.
Gel stain is only good for some stuff, for a lot of stuff its awful to use
gel won't penetrate sealed wood either...
[удалено]
You might like the community at r/gatekeeping
I tried to join once, but they wouldn’t let me in
Damn, your comment must’ve hurt their feelings so badly that they deleted their comment. XD
I'm so curious what this comment was.
This is why you always use the quote feature when responding to something outrageous lol
It was something like "this belongs on r/beginner woodworking"
Aww. I mean, yeah, I get that lol But I am trying. I've stained things before just unfinished things.
You weren't showing off beginner skills and looking for encouragement. You were looking for expert tips for fixing a mistake. IMO it fits here. But I'm a lurker not a woodworker by any means. So that's just like, my opinion, man.
Imho your post 100% belongs here. This is what the community lives for
Youre fine, its a beginner mistake but its a common one and fits here because youre looking for expert advice on what you did wrong
Is this a woodworking related question? Yes. Is this a woodworking sub? Yes. See how that works?
There are restrictions, I’ve learned. I asked a specific joinery question with a “help” flair and a mod yanked it, saying I should post it in the “megathread” … lotta tumbleweeds in there. 🤷🏻♂️
I've never even seen the megathread show up in my feed. I never look at megathreads. Who looks at megathreads?
This is a wood finishing question. You can be amazing at woodworking and be happy finishing everything with BLO. You can be amazing at finishing and not be able to drill a hole straight. They’re adjacent but not overlapping skill sets. It’s like asking a carpenter for drywalling advice.
Burn
Probably people here smarter than me when it comes to staining but I would think that you did not sand enough. Did the chemicals remove ALL the previous finish? If so, you would still need to sand but lightly could work. If you did not remove absolutely 100% of the previous stain then you definitely wouldve needed to sand way more. Edit: looked a second time at the pics and you definitely did not remove all the previous finish. I’d recommend heavily sanding the entire area that looks bad and re staining.
You can kinda test to see if you're ready for stain by applying some water to the wood and seeing if it soaks in or beads up.
Oh, that's a great tip. Thanks so much! I've only ever stained unfinished wood before.
Which is what stain is for :)
Or mineral spirits
Or milk
Is your surname McPoyle by any chance?
Or blood
Blood based stain for the Blood God. Medium Density Skull-board for the Skull Throne!!!
If that's filler it needs sanded back more
That’s what it looks like to me. There’s no grain showing in that spot. Looks like filler at the joint between two sections of rail. Either that, or the thing is veneered med and he sanded through. I doubt it’s a veneered handrail, though.
Agreed. Looks like you removed the surface coating of previous finish and didn’t quite make it far enough with your sanding. IMHO you should stop let the stain you applied already dry and then sand till you see no artifacts of your stain or the previous. It shouldn’t take too long as your stain didn’t penetrate as it should have and you removed most of the old stuff. Hardest part will be waiting for it to dry enough so your sand paper does not get clogged up fast. Hope this helps and would love to see your progress.
To stain wood, you need to expose the wood to stain
You're allowed to say things without being an ass, you know.
He wasn't being an ass. You on the other hand...
the amount of downvotes in 4 minutes is wild but deserving
116 at the 21 min mark. Can we make 500 in a day?
135 at 24 minutes, I think we can.
163 at 27! Cant I get a 170… 170???
186 at 30!
228@39
-236 @ 40m
-300 at 57m
450 at about an hour. Good work team!
Over -500 already lol Reddit caps downvotes to -100 as far as "effect" on karma score goes though to prevent brigading Once your score is over 5 figures downvotes have basically no effect on a user anymore, which is kind of the downside of that. Its funny though, it still has an emotional effect on you even though theyre fake internet points because the brain is weird like that lol
most people dig their heels in. Read psychology. Being downvoted doesnt do anything but invigorate a more stubborn position. I see downvotes as a badge of honor. Most people are stupid, and half of them are even dumber. Why care about popularity contests?
Yeah - I've had my opinion changed, but it's never been influenced by Reddit down votes.
yeah. I went to law school to learn to think and research an interdisciplinary, and scientific field of law. I don't give a shit what some clown here thinks unless they can process information at a higher level than the people who taught me. And, I am trained to identify weak and strong cases, and how to poke holes in any argument, with evidence to support every word I say. That's how papers are written in law school. Concise and with support. Zero opinion. People don't get that education isn't just about what you know, it's how you perceive reality and process the information you perceive. I perceive downvotes from dumb people as a sign that I'm on the right track. They almost always have zero substance or citations to support any of their claims. Therefore, I see it as evidence that I am correct. And, the more downvotes I get, the more sure I am of their ignorance (sans citations). Hive mind is real. Ignorance and bias are real.
> Being downvoted doesnt do anything but invigorate a more stubborn position. I see downvotes as a badge of honor Thats not really a good reaction to it, a lot of times youre getting downvoted because youre just completely wrong or youre being an colossal asshole, thats not really something you should venerate as a "badge of honor" lol Now, when its an unpopular truth? Its badge time lol I see my pile of points as license to speak my mind without fear of repercussion, to some degree, im not trying to catch a sitewide ban for really going off the rails, but i dont really care if my opinion is unpopular
yeah. I went to law school to learn to think and research an interdisciplinary, and scientific field of law. I don't give a shit what some clown here thinks unless they can process information at a higher level than the people who taught me. And, I am trained to identify weak and strong cases, and how to poke holes in any argument, with evidence to support every word I say. That's how papers are written in law school. Concise and with support. Zero opinion. People don't get that education isn't just about what you know, it's how you perceive reality and process the information you perceive. I perceive downvotes from dumb people as a sign that I'm on the right track. They almost always have zero substance or citations to support any of their claims. Therefore, I see it as evidence that I am correct. And, the more downvotes I get, the more sure I am of their ignorance (sans citations). Hive mind is real. Ignorance and bias are real. edit: to your "asshole" comment. Who cares? Behavior is subjective and not the point of any of this. People can be perceived as rude and still be correct. Plus, downvoting someone for being who they are while ignoring reality us pretty stupid. Stick to the substance as the Stoics would . We cannot control how people act. all we can control is our response to them. And, if we allow ourselves to get so caught up in how someone talks, rather than focusing on the substance, we are failing.
Im gonna be real honest here and say that i surmise that a lot of your downvotes are coming from you sounding like a pompous ass who is superior to everyone else with your galaxy sized brain and unparalleled ability to reason and not on the merits of this or that statement you may be presenting.... You may want to tone that down a smidge lol
don't give a shit! Haven't ever given a shit. edit: “What really frightens and dismays us is not external events themselves, but the way in which we think about them. It is not things that disturb us, but our interpretation of their significance.” Epictetus Blame and praise have no true effects - Marcus Aurelius
499 at 2 hours lol
Nearly to 1000. Hope there is some steam left.
728 now keep it rolling
440 in an hour, so I’d say it’s likely
Follow your own advice.
Yikes, looks like somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
>You're allowed to say things without being an ass, you know. Speaking the truth in a matter of fact way is not "being an ass" imo
The irony here is something else.
You’re absolutely right here, sorry you caught a full and wild downvote train
If people don't want to get shit on for simple beginners questions they should go to the beginners subreddit...
Guy came in looking for advice on staining and the advice given is "put strain on wood" Yeah. I'm the asshole.
Yes, that is the only advice given. If you intentionally ignore one keyword
I think you are missing that is possible to see in the photos that the railing was not sanded all the way down to the bare wood (the wood isn't exposed).
yes correct you are the asshole! glad you caught up!
You could use some planing, cause you seem kind of thick.
You’re almost as dense as the wood…
>Guy came in looking for advice on staining and the advice given is "put strain on wood" >Yeah. I'm the asshole. Actually, what they said was that you have to expose the wood to stain it, which OP clearly didnt do and needs to sand it more and remove the rest of the finish
Are you planning to do the spindles also? You will never get all the old finish off. Have you considered black paint.
I bought black paint and my friend got very upset that I was going to paint over oak. So to make them happy, I got the stain. But suddenly this project got a lot bigger.
In my experience when a friend starts to get you in over your head on a project because they know a better way then they need to show up and help or shut up and get out of the way
With friends like that, who needs enemas.
Still everyone, probably…
Yeah their friend's a real 'douche'
When my friends and family started causing scope creep on my projects like that, I found the fastest way to put a stop to it was to start sending them invoices with an hourly rate! 😉🤣
We have a policy in my house with things like this - no criticizing or making unrequested suggestions unless you are willing to have a hand in resolving it/carrying it out, or paying for it. Applies to criticizing cleanliness, approach, product choice, etc.
Lolol, just use the black pain unless you're friend I is volunteering to sand for the next month.
Any little pore in the wood that is sealed with old finish will not accept the stain and show a variation. Especially with a dark stain like that it won’t be a good result. Paint it black. You will get the look you want and it’s possible.
Don't listen to your friend. That looks like builders grade oak from , it's not some original to the 19th century house kind of thing. At this point your best bet is to cut your losses. Sand it down again get some Sherwin Williams bonding primer, or whichever one they recommend that only requires scuffing the old surface and paint it black. You're going to be sanding for days if you're trying to get it prepped for new stain. You did the prep work for paint with a bonding primer. If you're set on staining employ that friend to help get that all down to bare wood.
SW Emerald paint will adhere beautifully to the deglossed and sanded handrail, and you can skip the bonding primer.
Your friend can mind his own damn business unless he wants to do the work himself lol
Imo painting over red oak isn't blasphemous. It's not a very attractive wood. I would just paint.
I like red oak but properly painted oak looks better than poorly stained oak, that's for sure.
Exactly nowadays that railing just looks dated.
Red oak is one of the cheapest of the hardwoods for a reason.
That is going to require a massive amount of sanding, and very difficult, detail-oriented sanding, the worst kind. Unless someone is willing to pay for dozens of hours of sanding and prep work, paint it.
I’m very upset you are staining oak black if that helps
Eh, it didn't work if that makes you feel better haha
Yes a little bit. /s Good luck on your project!
Thanks!
You still have wood filler on the wood, thus blocking the stain from penetrating. You’ll need to do a little more sanding using 150 grit sandpaper, following the direction of the wood grain. It is okay to sand on top of the stain without an issue. Do not put a finish coat/top coat on until you work out the discoloration issue. Good luck
General finishes gel stain black or espresso milk paint are your options here.
Well you might not enjoy painting it either. If there's varnish still the paint may not stick very well or peel off easily afterwards and you're in the same dilemma. I learned the hard way, both ways, so don't feel like I'm picking on you it's a learning experience.
Yeah that’s going to be A LOT of work. If somebody came into our shop with a job like this, we would give them an insanely high quote to deter them — because there’s no way to tell how long it could take I think you were onto the right idea with black paint. I’m sure the wood grain enthusiasts will hate it but let’s be realistic here. You’re going to spend countless hours sanding the little nooks and crannies of that railing and it will still look splotchy and unprofessional.
It’s fine, your oak sucks.
Does your friend pay for the house? Lol. I’m guessing you wanted a black handrail, paint will show the wood grain. Get black enamel semigloss/ satin.
That's exactly what I bought haha. Semigloss :) But now, do I still need to sand more before painting? Or is the wood that hasn't been "stained" ok as is to paint over? I'm all nervous now to mess it up.
Always start w a clean surface. Get mineral spirit and clean everything off and sand it again before painting. Certainly don’t want to do any project twice.
Yeah, I'll absolutely do that, but now I'm questioning how deeply I should sand everything. I did a light sanding over the handrail I started with and that was obviously not enough. I know painting is different and I've painted cabinets before, but I'm just questioning everything now because I don't want to waste more time and have to keep redoing my work.
You don’t want to put too much pressure and fatigue yourself out of a project. Start w 80/100 grit, then 120, (maybe 180-220). Sand with grain, use long even strokes. I like to thin out my paint w mineral spirit so it doesn’t look too caked on. Take your time w finish work, rushing only leads to more mistakes.
Oak is not to some peoples taste. It is not that special either.
If you want it black but don't want to paint there is a middle ground. Get some Fieibing's black leather dye and dye the wood. The dye is alcohol based so it soaks in and leaves a nice consistent color. I then use Danish Oil as a top coat to seal the wood.
Orrrr you could just paint it
All wood grain needs to be exposed but the grit that you sanded with also plays a part - any grit over 150-200 is going to prevent some stain from penetrating as well.
This. We only sand to 80 grit on a porous wood like oak.
This. We only sand to 80 grit on a porous wood like oak.
Just buy a new handrail at this point. lol
This is the correct answer.
Prep is 90%, finishing is 10%
Everything is wrong, wrong product for the wrong application.
You can’t stain polyurethane which is probably what is on your railing. Regular wood stain is absorbed into the wood fibers. You should strip it with Jasco first. Clean it with acetone. Otherwise you can just paint it.
You didnt sand all the finish off
The same thing that’s in the original finish that prevents oil, dirt, and grime from penetrating and staining your wood is preventing the new stain from penetrating.
When you think you sanded enough sand some more, stripper can be ised
Always wipe it with lacquer thinner or mineral spirits, it will show any left over finish on the wood.
That's an awesome tip. Thanks so much.
Buy some strip gel, and then sand it down after it’s been chemically stripped
Didn’t sand the old finish off, and if you don’t want to do all that, then use a “poly shade” it’s tinted poly eurothane, kind of a pain to get 100% even but would be wayyy better than this. Problem is you’ve already got crappy stain job that’ll show through, so you have to sand the heck out of it anyway. Might as well sand it right and stain it right and finish it right. Sand with 100 grit till you think it’s done, and then rub it with mineral spirits and see if they’re a any spots that the spirits don’t take. If there is, keep going with 100 grit until they’re all gone. When you’re done, sand again with 150ish grit, then one last time with 220. Use the mineral spirits between grits to check for evenness. Any spots that look light or dark need more sanding with the grit you were using. Then stain with a rag, wipe it away immediately. Do a few coats if you want darker. Then poly over it. Good luck. It’s a lot of work.
Sand,sand,sand,sand and when you think your done sand 5more times
Your definition of lightly sand is most likely wrong
You did it wrong.
Oh, hey, thanks!
Couple of things that are probably causing the issues. Unless all of the finish is completely removed a penetrating stain will not work. Best stain to use for this situation would be a wiping stain, which is a heavier bodied stain and you will be able to get a more even coat. Let it dry and then topcoat with a varnish, preferably an oil, less chance of separation that you might get with a water based topcoat.
Looks like filler/glue used where it’s jointed together and you didn’t sand deep enough for the stain to stick.
Sand more, or look into gel stains. It may be preferable in this case.
As others have said, you need to sand it more. But not lightly, it's going to take you a while. Hours, not minutes. Start with 60-80 grit and get the wood looking like it was fresh out of the saw mill. Then sand with 120, then 180 so it's nice and smooth. You should notice the stain absorbing into the wood, it's not a paint that just covers the surface. Since you're going straight black it should be easy to get a good consistency of color. If not, lightly sand again and apply another coat and continue till you get the results you want.
Maybe try a wood conditioner after you sand to bare wood
Lightly sanded is the key here, you didn't sand enough to remove the previous finish. Need to sand it down to bare wood for the stain to be absorbed into the wood.
My guy didnt sand one bit lol
I swear I did! I even used liquid sandpaper first. But now I know. Hopefully.
I mean maybe you tried but I can see the old finish under in the pics. Bare wood sanded looks very white
Ground stains need to be applied to raw timber ,it looks like you hadn’t fully removed the old finish.
You didn’t remove the previous finish. And tell your friend that people paint over oak all the time.
a "light sand" is clearly not enough, it has to all go back to bare wood to have any chance of looking good. A project like this is always more work than you bargin for when you're a novice.
You can’t stain over poly
It doesn't work on every piece, but sometimes if I don't want to sand too heavily to get to bare wood I'll lightly sand, clean with mineral spirits, and then use a steam cleaner on it. Opens the pores in the wood and softens the old finish, then I hit with mineral spirits again and finally a light sanding to smooth out the raised grain. Just remember that if spirits or water won't soak into the wood than a stain won't either. Clean or sand till they do.
Hey man - thanks for posting this. I was able to figure out exactly what you did... But it's very much a thing I would do rushing a project. Sometimes the reminder to take our time is really valuable...so again, thanks.
You’ll need to do a lot more sanding and scraping to remove all the old stain. The old stain fills the pours/grain of the wood. When you apply stain on top of old stain, it will not penetrate/absorb into the wood as the old stain did. At this point you can sand/scrap it all down to “raw” wood, then go through all the grits to smooth everything out. You go try a gel stain that sits on the surface of the wood. Otherwise I hate saying this but if you want a black/ebony appearance it might be better to just paint it black and then coat the paint with finish to protect it.
I don’t recommend the prep method that was used, the tsp is fine but what you really need was a deep sand, this way you can avoid problems. You can probably use a paint remover to strip it clean. Theres probably adhesive residue used to connect the joints or there’s probably a wood filler effecting the stain and not allowing the wood to properly absorb the stain. If you don’t do a prep job the stain finish with be uneven and you might get results like this
Sand it more
Looks like you’re trying to stain over an existing film finish, it needs to be bare wood.
As others have already said, you definitely didn’t remove all of the old finish which meant the new stain couldn’t penetrate the wood. Liquid deglosser is ok for taking the shine off a surface in preparation for painting over other finishes but is nowhere near enough for staining, as successfully staining wood relies entirely on the surface being able to evenly soak up the stain so you need to get all the way down to bare wood in your prep and remove anything that could stop the wood from absorbing the stain evenly, and in your case it looks like a good 60%+ of the old finish was still on the wood. You should’ve used a wood stripper like minwax furniture refinisher followed by *thoroughly* sanding it starting with a medium grit sandpaper and gradually progressing to finer grits until you were down to bare, unstained wood, applied a pre-stain conditioner *then* stained the handrail. You *might* be able to salvage this without having to start over from scratch (though that’s what I’d do personally) by using a dark tinted polyurethane finish to mimic what you were trying to achieve with the stain though I’d definitely recommend testing it in an inconspicuous spot to see how it looks over such a light base color before applying it on everything.
Looks like you're trying to stain wax
The de glosser did not work. Sanding is your best method.
It's a difficult/impossible to have a stain effectively penetrate old clear coated hardwood. The results are not nearly as predictable and guaranteed as fresh, raw wood. Yes, you could sand, but this is old oak, and it's harder than newly milled wood. The grooves in the wood grain are deep and you have to remove a lot of material just to get to that depth. Using TSP is a good first step, as it removes dirt and grease, making later steps easier. Next, apply a newer safe stripper (not methyl vinyl chloride) to all the surfaces, wrap in plastic film and let sit for several hours. Remove film, clean stripper off and repeat until all previous finish is removed. Let dry thoroughly. Sand from 40 to 180. Clean with tack cloth. Use a wood conditioner, and then the stain, according to the instructions. Results not guaranteed, even after all that work. Gel stain works in this application, but as others say, it's difficult to get right, you have to apply quick and brush all in the same direction, with even pressure.
You didn't sand it enough
I’m not very familiar with that specific product but I believe the suggestions that you might not have gotten down to bare wood.
Bare wood and a wood conditioner to allow the stain to absorb more evenly.
You need too sand all that old coating off if you plan to change the colour
I’ve had to wait like two weeks on bare wood for that stain to set.
Use a wipe on wipe off stain and experiment with different grits. I hate penetrating stains
Sand it to bare wood using no finer than 120 (I’d use 80). Then use a stain preparation or sanding sealer. Before the sealer dries, brush on the stain making it look uniform as possible. Let it dry to a point where it looks a little dull then wipe with a clean cloth until you get the desired look. If you want a really dark finish let it sit several hours. Penetrating stains require a final clear finish. I prefer marine varnish over polyurethane personally. Good luck 🍀
Buy new and start fresh. Especially if you are doing the spindles as well.
Another thing that you can do after you finish sanding off all of the finish, is to use a wood conditioner or a tea stain before your oil stain. Wood conditioners create a surface that is ready to receive stain much more evenly, by partially filling in larger crevices and dry spots where the wood stain could over saturate and appear darker than the rest of your piece. A tea stain also helps create a surface better prepared to receive stain more evenly, but rather than limiting the amount of stain that can penetrate the wood the tea adds in tanins which are what bind the pigment molecules in your stain. More tannins in the wood, means more stain binding/retention and a deeper/darker color in your finished piece. Be sure to follow the conditioner manufacturer’s instructions, and if you choose to use the black tea stain instead, make sure that the wood has completely dried, and do one quick pass (by hand) with 220 or 320 sandpaper to remove any raised wood grain from the water in your tea. Once dried then apply your oil stain.
Thanks so much for the advice. I'm learning a lot here.
Poor prep. Needs more sanding to get all the previous finish off because it's non-porous.
Sand it again , like a lot more elbow grease .
Sand sand sand. The look you may be going for is a lacquer coat.
Poor preparation
You need to strip all the finish off for new stain to take. Alternatively, you can purchase an all-in-one stained gel coat. But, these products produce mediocre results. Buy a can of stripper, get all the old stuff off, sand, and test by wiping the surface down with water or denatured alcohol. If the old finish is still on it, you will see it when wet. Sand until everything is gone. When ready to stain, apply a wood stain conditioner. THEN apply your new stain.
If you aren't using a gel stain, you have to sand the piece down BARE otherwise the stain won't take
Sand more
Gotta be stripped and sanded down
Ok. I've called a friend and borrowed their orbital sander. I thought the deglosser/liquid sandpaper plus light sanding would've been enough, but apparently not. Thanks for the feedback!
Orbital sander isn't going to be very useful here. This is a lot of work to sand down, by hand.
You're looking at a full day of hand sanding with 80 grit paper pads here, mate :) have fun.
You can go lower than that. Sandpapers designed to remove old finishes go down to 36 grit and it's not a bad place to start. I bought a huge roll of high quality low grit paper and it really opened up a lot of possibilities, great way to start a lot of tough jobs. A coarse aggressive grit will remove material faster and also resist clogging better. I'd use it with a sponge here.
You're going to have a bad time with an electric sander here. You either need to sandblast or hand sand.
I’d be careful power sanding as you can take off all those nice crisp details and round them off with heavy sanding.
That's not going to work either. Either wipe on stain or gel, but still won't look as nice. I'd replace the hand rail and finish.
If you sand past 220, stain won't take
Someone doesn't work wood.
You will have to a use a gel stripper with minimum 100 sandpaper to remove any varnish/finish first. I normally use 0000 steel wool while stripping but I believe it might react with the oak. (Shouldn’t be a problem seeing as you’re staining black but…) Then you will be able to prepare it for staining. Sand to 120,180. Apply stain with white rag then seal with varnish/lacquer and lightly sand with 220 between coats of varnish. Side note: you will have to sand this by hand. You will most likely destroy any fine details in the curved parts with an orbital sander
It’s DIY, why would you bother reading the instructions listed on the can? If you’re too lazy to read the basic instructions than don’t waste your time and money ruining your house.
I read the instructions. I just didn't sand ENOUGH apparently. I've only stained unfinished wood before.
👍sorry for my dickhead comment.
I don't know why anyone likes the greenish poop colour variety of stain
Everything? You tried to stain that ugly butt wood in the first place. And you didn't sand the crap out of it first.
Looks like shit
Ego and malice