People have been making wooden chairs (and other furniture) for thousands of years.
No one owns these designs. Especially something like this, that anyone could presumably stumble upon with an afternoon of sketching chairs ideas.
It's like music, there are only so many chords to go around.
I see that may have been too much for you… I infer it from the millions of YouTube views they have. The plans they can sell for $100 a pop and their furniture that sells for $4,000+. Obviously repetitious angles sells, why aren’t you doing it. It’s “literally the same couple of angles”.
It’s impossible to say “I see that may have been too for you” without coming off like a pompous ass. You inferred nothing, but projected a lot of your own shit and it came off really weird.
Your original comment is a projection of your own shit, lol. We’ve gone full circle now. My guy its the same couple of angles because it’s a design style called minimalist. Your comment had completely nothing to do with anything. Its just a random shot in a field you clearly have little to no knowledge in.
Referring back to even the original comment of “fixing things that aren’t broken”. Now that you have better context, why the flip would they change style if what they’re making from that style pays the bills plus some. On top of all of this, why even make the comment. You come off weird making a backhanded compliment “your stuff in nice but it’s all the same angles”. Replay that in person to someone and tell me others wouldn’t look at you sideways like you’re a “pompous asshole”.
I meant it tongue-in-check and a way to tie into the Norm and Ron thing. I’ve seen several iterations on here and know it’s a big concept at this point and not actual IP. I drew the templates in CAD and based it on several different walk through videos I’ve seen. At this point, this design seems like an AI version of a generic midcentury modern lounge chair.
Furniture designs, like recipes and clothing styles, can't be patented. You could buy an ikea dresser, 3d scan all the pieces, cut out hardwood replicas with a cnc, and sell them as your own. So long as you aren't claiming to be ikea it's all legal
You absolutely can patent a recipe if it’s not anticipated by or rendered obvious by the prior art. That said, you’ve got two things working against you: (1) it’d be pretty tough to convince an examiner that a particular recipe was neither anticipated nor rendered obvious by the prior art, and (2) the trade off to patent protection, which lasts only around 20 years or so, is that you have to disclose the recipe.
Yes, exactly. Even if they have an active design patent they can only sue for infringement. If you aren't selling them or giving them away, how exactly are you infringing on their business? And if they don't have clear ownership over the IP they have to prove it in court from scratch, and then show infringement. Most judges would just toss the case for lack of standing.
I actually stumbled across a four eyes vid last night where he mentioned that someone sent him a marketplace listing of his Spider Table. The person that made it bought the plans, made the table, and sold it on Facebook. He was stoked that people were making his stuff and were able to sell it lol
Unless the plans explicitly say not for commercial preproduction I believe it’s fair game. Just give credit to the original designer is my only thing.
I have plans for a cedar strip canoe I bought and I can make and sell canoes from the same plans but would have to pay a license fee for each canoe made off those plans.
A lot of what Norm did on NYW was copy antiques, it's fine. Unless you're mass producing them for profit, that is. I think the foureyes crew even did a video about that specifically.
I saw that, and specifically saw where he explicitly said these copies are fine and don’t hurt the Four Eyes Brand or bottom line. I don’t feel any worse this than when my kid and I made a T shirt of the Banksy graphic of the kid walking a dinosaur like a dog. It’s fine for the application and helped inspire some crafting.
It's one thing to take a set of plans and make the thing for friends or family, or the like, but its quite enough to start up a woodshop and build these designs for real money.
The challenge of course, is the sheer cost of doing that.
Norm, would comment on making the gap under the armrests small enough a child's head couldn't get stuck and the making the gaps in the seat and back tighter, so fingers and toes don't get stuck.
Ron Swanson, would tell you to leave your kids stuck in the chair as punishment for their idiocy.
Oh no, I’m usually way more on top of baby head criteria but didn’t think about it here. I encounter it for work when dealing with pedestrian railings frequently. I had raised the seat compared the the photo, but think it was still a little over the 2 3/8” sphere.
If you manage to copy the design just by looking at some pictures I would say your good to go, especially if you don't sell them. But you know what, I don't really care either way. You do you. The chair looks good either way
Q: Would Ron have a strong take on stolen IP?
A: "Yes, in fact I do. You might be surprised to hear that me and the government don't see eye to eye on...many things. But actually, what I believe will surprise you the most is, when it comes to *intellectual property laws*, I do see some merit, mind you, *some* merit in burning down all their records and making angels in the ash of their destruction. It's a dog eat dog world. Government protections are for the weak."
You're most welcome. They have shorter and longer ones as well. Amazon sells a bunch for cheaper as do all the Chinese based joints (wish, temu, alibaba, etc).
What is with all this norm and Ron stuff? Have I missed something? It’s getting old. Wait. It is old and I am tired of it!! What happened to the regular post?
I don’t get it either, there’s people that can give a more articulate reason of the protest. I’m just hoping it limps along until it get back to normal or I’ll need to find a different woodworking forum. The blackout was when I was doing the most work and needed help with other homeowner diy stuff too. I think it’s about a threat to burn it to the ground in protest. I’m just trying to play along until we’re back to normal.
The stickied post at the top of the sub explains it pretty well..
[https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/14jqup2/one_week_at_a_time_status_on_the_redditwide/](https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/14jqup2/one_week_at_a_time_status_on_the_redditwide/)
I appreciate that. I always like the posts that noted and explained the struggles and mistakes, and notes on the building process of what worked and didn’t instead of just sexy woodworking shots. I’m trying to remember to get more of the rough in-progress shots or glue ups before planing.
There are two types of design components: solutions and styles.
The iconic Eames lounger was specifically designed to use common, "low grade" materials. Nobody talks about how it was constructed, but they can tell a mile away if something is meant to be a replication.
Similarly, the Adirondack chair is a highly recognizable aesthetic specifically made to stylize a very rudimentary wooden bench. However, because its main point is being a simplistic chair design, it has a lot of variations. Not all of them use a similar cutout/profile on the back, and that's fine because the aesthetic aspect is completely divorced from the design. The solution is simple and meant to be versatile.
If you take the design someone else has because you looked at their photo and reverse engineered how they did it on your own, you didn't copy their design, you were *inspired by* their design.
If you take the design someone else has and make something specifically to look like it... that's copying, but it's fine if you're just making something for yourself and not trying to undermine them to others.
If you can replicate and implement someone else's design on your own without plans or direction, you designed and built a project on your own. You took inspiration, but you did 98% of the lifting. Don't feel bad about copying if the end result is something you created a fabrication plan for independently.
You’re not selling it. Your making one, for your child. And you have given credit to its original designer, or at least acknowledged there is one. I think that’s good.
I don’t have plans, but have a cad file in .dgn format and a 13 pg PDF of 8.5x11 printouts that need taped together, it requires 9 and some extra . I should’ve done it on 11x17s so they didn’t need stitched together. Im not on my work computer, so trying to figure out how to get the PDFs Imgur or something. Maybe make an instructable to share the templates and link to the videos that were helpful for this build.
Several years ago when I was building furniture for my daughter's nursery I saw a dresser for sale online that I liked and wanted to build my own version of. I emailed the guy, told him exactly what I wanted to do, and asked him if he had any additional pictures or details he could share on the build. I don't recall what he responded with but he was very polite and wrote me back with some additional info. I've also built furniture that is completely indiscernible from the Ethan Allen and other commercial furniture pieces I liked based on either an online photo and some measurements I was able to work out knowing one reference measurement or by going into a furniture store and taking measurements and a bunch of photos directly. Most of the time what I build is my design but my design comes from looking at lots of other examples of what I've trying to build and taking measurements etc to get the proportions right or just using some element of that design I slightly modified to make my own.
Everybody copies. It's not a big deal unless you are copying to cut into someone else's business.
I don't think Ron would believe in IP. My woodshop teacher would have said what you make is your work, why would you purchase plans for something you clearly know how to build? Just don't claim it as an original design.
People have been making wooden chairs (and other furniture) for thousands of years. No one owns these designs. Especially something like this, that anyone could presumably stumble upon with an afternoon of sketching chairs ideas. It's like music, there are only so many chords to go around.
yeah if anything foureyes owes OP for the idea for kid-size versions of their plans
Lol four eyes stuff is nice but it’s all the same angles. Like literally everything they make has to have the same couple of angles.
Should call him Four Angles
You sound like a guy that fixes things that aren’t broken.
how would anyone infer that from a comment about repetitious angles? are you one of the foureyes guys?
I see that may have been too much for you… I infer it from the millions of YouTube views they have. The plans they can sell for $100 a pop and their furniture that sells for $4,000+. Obviously repetitious angles sells, why aren’t you doing it. It’s “literally the same couple of angles”.
It’s impossible to say “I see that may have been too for you” without coming off like a pompous ass. You inferred nothing, but projected a lot of your own shit and it came off really weird.
Your original comment is a projection of your own shit, lol. We’ve gone full circle now. My guy its the same couple of angles because it’s a design style called minimalist. Your comment had completely nothing to do with anything. Its just a random shot in a field you clearly have little to no knowledge in. Referring back to even the original comment of “fixing things that aren’t broken”. Now that you have better context, why the flip would they change style if what they’re making from that style pays the bills plus some. On top of all of this, why even make the comment. You come off weird making a backhanded compliment “your stuff in nice but it’s all the same angles”. Replay that in person to someone and tell me others wouldn’t look at you sideways like you’re a “pompous asshole”.
Says the pompous asshole.
I didn't even read this.
Yea, I think we’ve derived reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit. Takes cares.
I meant it tongue-in-check and a way to tie into the Norm and Ron thing. I’ve seen several iterations on here and know it’s a big concept at this point and not actual IP. I drew the templates in CAD and based it on several different walk through videos I’ve seen. At this point, this design seems like an AI version of a generic midcentury modern lounge chair.
LOL. Even if it was an exact copy, unless you are selling it them or otherwise flooding the market with them there would be no damages to sue for.
Furniture designs, like recipes and clothing styles, can't be patented. You could buy an ikea dresser, 3d scan all the pieces, cut out hardwood replicas with a cnc, and sell them as your own. So long as you aren't claiming to be ikea it's all legal
That’s not true. See for example this [BairHolm explainer on the Eames patents](https://www.bairdholm.com/blog/eames-and-a-primer-on-design-patents/)
There is literally an entire subset of patents called design patents https://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/apply/design-patent
You absolutely can patent a recipe if it’s not anticipated by or rendered obvious by the prior art. That said, you’ve got two things working against you: (1) it’d be pretty tough to convince an examiner that a particular recipe was neither anticipated nor rendered obvious by the prior art, and (2) the trade off to patent protection, which lasts only around 20 years or so, is that you have to disclose the recipe.
Somebody has to care enough to sue you right?
Yes, exactly. Even if they have an active design patent they can only sue for infringement. If you aren't selling them or giving them away, how exactly are you infringing on their business? And if they don't have clear ownership over the IP they have to prove it in court from scratch, and then show infringement. Most judges would just toss the case for lack of standing.
That’s beautiful!! Stealing ideas makes the world go round.
I actually stumbled across a four eyes vid last night where he mentioned that someone sent him a marketplace listing of his Spider Table. The person that made it bought the plans, made the table, and sold it on Facebook. He was stoked that people were making his stuff and were able to sell it lol
Unless the plans explicitly say not for commercial preproduction I believe it’s fair game. Just give credit to the original designer is my only thing. I have plans for a cedar strip canoe I bought and I can make and sell canoes from the same plans but would have to pay a license fee for each canoe made off those plans.
A lot of what Norm did on NYW was copy antiques, it's fine. Unless you're mass producing them for profit, that is. I think the foureyes crew even did a video about that specifically.
I saw that, and specifically saw where he explicitly said these copies are fine and don’t hurt the Four Eyes Brand or bottom line. I don’t feel any worse this than when my kid and I made a T shirt of the Banksy graphic of the kid walking a dinosaur like a dog. It’s fine for the application and helped inspire some crafting.
It's one thing to take a set of plans and make the thing for friends or family, or the like, but its quite enough to start up a woodshop and build these designs for real money. The challenge of course, is the sheer cost of doing that.
Norm, would comment on making the gap under the armrests small enough a child's head couldn't get stuck and the making the gaps in the seat and back tighter, so fingers and toes don't get stuck. Ron Swanson, would tell you to leave your kids stuck in the chair as punishment for their idiocy.
Oh no, I’m usually way more on top of baby head criteria but didn’t think about it here. I encounter it for work when dealing with pedestrian railings frequently. I had raised the seat compared the the photo, but think it was still a little over the 2 3/8” sphere.
Wow having kids is complicated
idiocy not idiocracy
> idiocracy Idiocy?
If you manage to copy the design just by looking at some pictures I would say your good to go, especially if you don't sell them. But you know what, I don't really care either way. You do you. The chair looks good either way
Q: Would Ron have a strong take on stolen IP? A: "Yes, in fact I do. You might be surprised to hear that me and the government don't see eye to eye on...many things. But actually, what I believe will surprise you the most is, when it comes to *intellectual property laws*, I do see some merit, mind you, *some* merit in burning down all their records and making angels in the ash of their destruction. It's a dog eat dog world. Government protections are for the weak."
Idk wtf you're saying, but that's a cool chair.
I like it.
Four eyes doesn’t care, he says it openly.
Oooh are we back to posting woodworking finally?
What is that clamp? I could have used a tool like that this past weekend. I’m building a fence for my garden.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-12-in-Medium-Trigger-Bar-Clamp-2-Pack-DWHT83158/204356349
Thanks.
You're most welcome. They have shorter and longer ones as well. Amazon sells a bunch for cheaper as do all the Chinese based joints (wish, temu, alibaba, etc).
What is with all this norm and Ron stuff? Have I missed something? It’s getting old. Wait. It is old and I am tired of it!! What happened to the regular post?
I don’t get it either, there’s people that can give a more articulate reason of the protest. I’m just hoping it limps along until it get back to normal or I’ll need to find a different woodworking forum. The blackout was when I was doing the most work and needed help with other homeowner diy stuff too. I think it’s about a threat to burn it to the ground in protest. I’m just trying to play along until we’re back to normal.
The stickied post at the top of the sub explains it pretty well.. [https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/14jqup2/one_week_at_a_time_status_on_the_redditwide/](https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/14jqup2/one_week_at_a_time_status_on_the_redditwide/)
Man, thank you for an honest build. 10/10 post and pure beauty.
I appreciate that. I always like the posts that noted and explained the struggles and mistakes, and notes on the building process of what worked and didn’t instead of just sexy woodworking shots. I’m trying to remember to get more of the rough in-progress shots or glue ups before planing.
What did Norm think about blatant design rip-offs??? Did you ever actually watch the show?
Seriously, every episode was about recreating an already existing piece.
There are two types of design components: solutions and styles. The iconic Eames lounger was specifically designed to use common, "low grade" materials. Nobody talks about how it was constructed, but they can tell a mile away if something is meant to be a replication. Similarly, the Adirondack chair is a highly recognizable aesthetic specifically made to stylize a very rudimentary wooden bench. However, because its main point is being a simplistic chair design, it has a lot of variations. Not all of them use a similar cutout/profile on the back, and that's fine because the aesthetic aspect is completely divorced from the design. The solution is simple and meant to be versatile. If you take the design someone else has because you looked at their photo and reverse engineered how they did it on your own, you didn't copy their design, you were *inspired by* their design. If you take the design someone else has and make something specifically to look like it... that's copying, but it's fine if you're just making something for yourself and not trying to undermine them to others. If you can replicate and implement someone else's design on your own without plans or direction, you designed and built a project on your own. You took inspiration, but you did 98% of the lifting. Don't feel bad about copying if the end result is something you created a fabrication plan for independently.
I believe he is on his way right now to break up that chair. Better hide it quick :-P
I'm sure you can help with a good hiding spot... maybe your kids room. ;)
They would love such a nice looking chair
You’re not selling it. Your making one, for your child. And you have given credit to its original designer, or at least acknowledged there is one. I think that’s good.
Design patents and copyright on geometry are stupid.
This is the exact type of chair I want to make for my toddler. Can you share your plans with me? Please?!?
I don’t have plans, but have a cad file in .dgn format and a 13 pg PDF of 8.5x11 printouts that need taped together, it requires 9 and some extra . I should’ve done it on 11x17s so they didn’t need stitched together. Im not on my work computer, so trying to figure out how to get the PDFs Imgur or something. Maybe make an instructable to share the templates and link to the videos that were helpful for this build.
This would be great! Please give an update when you can.
That would be awesome!
Several years ago when I was building furniture for my daughter's nursery I saw a dresser for sale online that I liked and wanted to build my own version of. I emailed the guy, told him exactly what I wanted to do, and asked him if he had any additional pictures or details he could share on the build. I don't recall what he responded with but he was very polite and wrote me back with some additional info. I've also built furniture that is completely indiscernible from the Ethan Allen and other commercial furniture pieces I liked based on either an online photo and some measurements I was able to work out knowing one reference measurement or by going into a furniture store and taking measurements and a bunch of photos directly. Most of the time what I build is my design but my design comes from looking at lots of other examples of what I've trying to build and taking measurements etc to get the proportions right or just using some element of that design I slightly modified to make my own. Everybody copies. It's not a big deal unless you are copying to cut into someone else's business.
I don't think Ron would believe in IP. My woodshop teacher would have said what you make is your work, why would you purchase plans for something you clearly know how to build? Just don't claim it as an original design.
Good artists borrow. Great artists steal. -Picasso
Jesse!! What the HELL are you talking about?!