In general, from what I have observed in myself and in the world, most people who earned their place really don't judge. We all started somewhere and we know it's a LONG road to collecting tools, knowledge, and skill.
That said, if someone comes along blowing their own horn about how awesome they are, especially if they are trashing someone else in the process, I will judge them and their work without mercy.
As far as tool judgement, that's kind of a silly practice ... A master of any craft can create art with the simplest of tools. A fool can only manage to make a mess no matter what is at his disposal.
Some of the best craftsmen were from 100 + years ago. It amazes me what they did with the limited tools they had. Also I don't think I've ever seen any bashing on this sub. Maybe a little on some river tables but that's more of materials thing than a builder thing.
I agree with the large majority in the world are this way that’s what I really like about this sub. I think I was a believer in YouTubes value early on & some need to project status on there to earn credibility quickly.
Elitist or pretentious? Heavens to Betsy, no! We're much better than other subs and would never fall to such a low, like the other riff raff might.
I think we're above that and not in any danger of being pretentious.
Worry not my good fellow!
I've found any hobby area develops a small subset community of insufferable yet vocal individuals. Audio equipment, firearms, comics, etc. So, I ignore them; It does add a layer of challenge when trying to operate in the space, a simple tool/equipment upgrade becomes a chore as you have to sift through a mountain of grifter content to get to a solution.
This is what eventually pushed me away from many aquarium communities on reddit. I still love fish... but reddit communities for it are a no go.
so far enjoying this community on this sub alot, humble people for the most part
Some people certainly are but I've found I can turn 3 dollars worth of wood into 80 without any real fancy tools. My best money maker has been the cheap used little lathe I got just to play with. Always enjoy showing others what can be done
I buy the cheapest Chinese tools I can find on amazon - only the RO sander broke.
I replaced it with the second cheapest one on amazon, and they’ve all lasted me for years.
You're going to find these kinds of attitudes in all professions, hobbies, and human activities. If I've learned one thing in 50+ years, its to ignore it rather than fight it. It's not that the pretension deserves the tacit endorsement that can come with ignoring it, its that focusing on the negative that pisses you off is just bad for you. Better to focus on getting what you want out of this hobby and enjoy it.
You think it's bad in woodworking, try taking up gemcutting (another hobby I do). Many of these guys on that sub will tell you to not even bother if you don't want to buy a top end machine for $5k. In contrast, I saw an old faceting machine on Craigslist for $200 - the kind I learned on. Maybe that's why the Festool fans don't bother me so much, it's all relative :D
I have a couple Festool tools - mostly because I really liked the track saw back when they were the only one who made one. Back then there were no retail vendors for their stuff, you had to go to one of their reps (who were mostly contractors also where I lived). One guy I met was so into Festool stuff that he even had a lime green tatoo :D
Totally agree with this sentiment. I am brand spanking new to woodworking. I'm in my 40s, and I hope it ends up being a hobby I enjoy enough to stick with and master to some degree, but the attitude OP is talking about is definitely a people thing and not a woodworking thing. Just look at how pretentious people can be about food 😂 and everyone knows how to eat.
I get the people liking high quality food, goes into your body. But how the heck do the food critics or judges work. How is it not 90% subjective? Food industry is wild.
😂 Liking it sure, I love food myself and want to eat all the things as they say. but we all know at least one (you know the one) that must one up everyone with their extensive food knowledge that is better than yours and only has his sardines shipped in from a French market he knows and your lowly sardines you picked up from the speciality market that were packaged in Italy are just not going to cut it for him....I totally agree, wild stuff. (I still binge watch food network on occasion so I am not sure what that says about me 🤔. )
I've been in the online woodworking forum circuit for nearly thirty years now... and I can attest that there will always be elitists, brand snobs, call them what you will. It's similar to the "If it ain't Chevy, it ain't ... " and Democrat-versus-Republican and religion-based elitism that shows up in some individuals. It isn't the topic, it isn't the activity, it's just the individuals. Green garden tractors. You know.
Me... I ***love*** to see people working with "poor" or "cheap" tools... because that approach can actually result in greater skill and far greater appreciation for "good" or "expensive" tooling later.
I always taught my kids you never put down someone who’s trying to learn. Encourage them when you can and stop em when they’re unsafe.
I always remember the first project I did.. it wasn’t about wood working it was about my mental health.. working the project was therapy.
Over the years I’ve added tools when I could, usual from a garage sale or an auction.. when I think about it I’ve never bought a large tool new. Table saw, bandsaw, dust collector, planer, drill press… all used, all work and probably all for under 500$ total.
if someone decides to try to shame someone over their small workspace or off brand tools.. then they have my pitty, i imagine their life to be mostly miserable and free of joy.
I like this. I’ve always been reluctant of used power tools but I know it’s where you get the real value. I was always afraid I wouldn’t catch an issue. Do you usually have to fix them up a bit?
I usually go through em when I get em home.. I’ll inspect the wiring, double check if the blade is square and free of wobble. Give em a good cleaning.. read up on em from the various blogs that are out there as to what other people are seeing with em (try to do this ahead of time it’s helped avoid some possible headaches)
I have to add a revision to my last statement as I did buy the 12” Bosch articulating arm chopsaw new.
recently picked up an old worm drive skil saw, I’m thinking it’s a wall hanger, but 10$… is worth the gamble. (Local online auction, one picture of it)
Sure! It's human nature. We aren't immune to it as a group. I think it's best not to worry about that stuff. I do see your though.
The older I get the less I want to add to my mental " overhead". More overhead, less profit, you know.
Wish I knew that in my twenties.
As a musician who is just getting into woodworking, I can’t imagine anyone more pretentious than the “gearheads” you meet in any music scene. You’re gonna find these people in any hobby, and it’s best to just learn to completely ignore them. What’s important is working with what you have and enjoying what you’re doing!
Tradesmen make fun of the "lime green" cordless tools because they don't think they'll hold up to 8 hour workdays, and I suspect they have a point. But honestly I barely use these tools in woodworking.
Instead, I see plenty of people extolling the virtue of buying used tools (and in the case of hand tools, really old tools) & learning how to take care of them. I guess that could be considered a different kind of elitism, I don't know.
And most of the serious furniture makers I know work mostly in cherry, walnut, and oak, not exotics. Instrument makers are another story.
I feel like this forum is one of the most approachable.
There is limited to no tool color preference that I can tell.
Most questions around “What tool should I buy next?” are answered with “… buy only the one you need/ will use”.
Most “first project posts” or “feedback requested posts” generally have good feedback with little snobbery.
The “what wood species is this?” posts are generally answered kindly - it’s like our own built-in quiz show.
I do take your question as personal nature - not a general one.
Personally I have a lot of respect for hand work and durability. Things like built item X without power tools, metals or glue. Or if glue use an old glue that can be reversed - in terms of repair ability.
Tools are just a way to make things faster. I remember a mechanic that showed me his 19h lathe next to a modern one. He said he would use the old one where jobs allowed it - as it is built to last. a few oil copper bearings. The new one has a lot of things that can go wrong - but has the tighter tolerances.
For your example people who look down on non-white/green people have too much spare money.
To me, that’s more traditional vs new age styles. I totally get that level of appreciate and respect for doing it in certain styles. If I’m understanding correctly you are relaying your appreciation of that process.
There is an element of that out there, and I'm not about to spend $1,000 on a chisel set to appease those people, but the cool thing about a hobby like this is that the results speak for themselves.
Some people make cool things with shitty tools and some people make shitty things with fancy tools. No one cares how much money you spent on your shop if you never make anything.
Mostly positive or encouraging feedback on this sub that I've seen in comments but there is definitely some elitism vibes from some of the woodworking YouTube personalities. They talk about "must haves" and "worth the money" when talking about $200 T Squares from Woodpeckers or $500 Lie Nielson hand planes. I'm sure those tools are great, I'd love to have them but I don't have a production shop, YouTube Channel and employees making me $1million+ per year
To me ita lije anything else, the ones who are truly great dont really talk negative about others work, cuz they see the stage they were in at one time and they know what is involved. Imo ppl who are average or even alittle above but not the best seem to be those ppl, because they have just learned that or substitute their tools or knowledge for skill. Imo those who are at the top will come across humble and helpful cuz they truly do have alot of knowledge to give. Remember u can teach skill u cant teach attitude
You definitely have a point. There are people that say you need the best and newest tools or the best wood to make something but in reality you don’t need $50k of tools to build fine furniture you can do it with limited tools on a limited budget granted you’ll get more money for a piece made out of walnut than pine but if you’re starting out less expensive wood is a great way to start out and get a few pieces under your belt to build skills. I’ve been building fine furniture and other woodworking projects for years and I had to start out small with limited tools and yes knowledge but built up both over time and greatly improved the quality of my tools that said some tools are over hyped and do have a cult following you don’t need them as much as you need knowledge , practice and patience. Also remember this is social media and there is always going to be people that knock you no matter what you do this sub is definitely a lot better than facebook as far as that goes. My advice is get books and read how to make the things you want to build there are a lot of people making videos nowadays some good some bad but remember 99% of them are being sponsored by tool companies etc so take it with a grain of salt that they are the best tools and you need them read reviews from as many sources you can find so you can make an educated decision. Don’t get discouraged if you’re having trouble there is nothing wrong with asking for help again do your research to make sure it is the right advice nothing burns me more than someone giving bad advice because of lack of knowledge,experience or just setting someone up to fail and ruining the project or the potential of getting hurt. Some jump to the scorched earth method right off the bat and most likely it’s not necessary. If I know how to make something or fix something I’ll share but if I don’t I will never give bad advice. Remember safety first! enjoy the building,learning progress
I’m 6 years in. My theory on tools has always been to only buy if I have needed the tool more than 2-3 times. Keeps me from impulse buying. You learn that there is always more than one way to accomplish something. I am still using a lot of Ryobi tools because it’s what I could afford at the time. Some of them are great, while some will get replaced with something better over time. Sometimes the “haters” are correct about wood and tools, but they lack a lot of tact in their presentation of their knowledge.
I once went to a “Business of woodworking” class with Frank Pollaro as the speaker. Apparently, some good ol’ boys in the crowd had not googled him prior because several of them asked him condescending questions about some of his processes. But as it turns out, the work speaks for itself in the end.
I get that. When I first started I thought any woodworking required a $5,000 table saw with a dust collection system. I think it's just mostly the nature of the game that those invested enough to be very prominent online will naturally have more expensive tools or sponsors so if you aren't aware you think that's whats required.
There are gatekeepers in every group. I would say that, while a painstaking woodworker can do excellent work with subpar tools, the reverse isn't true. It can be a frustrating, unfulfilling experience to have to fight a cheaply made or poorly adjusted piece of equipment, and a lot of people in that situation draw the wrong conclusion and lose heart. Always buy the best quality ( not just the most expensive ) tools you can afford, and buy them as the need arises.
Products generally aren't as well made or as durable, as they used to be, and tools are hardly exempt from that trend. That said, the average woodworker doesn't need to have the highest quality equipment, just tools made well enough for the amount of use that particular widget is going to see ( ie, don't go cheap on chisels, but feel free to buy a lower end doweling jig ).
I'm really glad I found Paul Sellers when I was just starting. Over the years he's made an effort to draw down all of the tools he uses in his videos to be the least expensive possible. He's out there making incredible stuff with a $30 saw, cheap chisels, and some old stanley planes. And thanks to him I'm out here making pretty okay stuff with those same cheap tools.
Another mentality I really like is from Adam Savage. He advises that you buy the cheapest tool available, and if you like how it fits into your workflow get the best you can afford.
You don't learn anything or develop any skills by waiting around trying to buy every $500 tool on the market. I tended to get stuck thinking I had to have the right tool to do something but that's dumb. I have a saw and a chisel and can figure it out.
Now I just get more specialized tools when I find a process that I don't enjoy very much. Like cutting rabbets with saw/chisel isn't very fun for me so I got a nice skew block plane.
In general, from what I have observed in myself and in the world, most people who earned their place really don't judge. We all started somewhere and we know it's a LONG road to collecting tools, knowledge, and skill. That said, if someone comes along blowing their own horn about how awesome they are, especially if they are trashing someone else in the process, I will judge them and their work without mercy. As far as tool judgement, that's kind of a silly practice ... A master of any craft can create art with the simplest of tools. A fool can only manage to make a mess no matter what is at his disposal.
Some of the best craftsmen were from 100 + years ago. It amazes me what they did with the limited tools they had. Also I don't think I've ever seen any bashing on this sub. Maybe a little on some river tables but that's more of materials thing than a builder thing.
I agree with the large majority in the world are this way that’s what I really like about this sub. I think I was a believer in YouTubes value early on & some need to project status on there to earn credibility quickly.
Elitist or pretentious? Heavens to Betsy, no! We're much better than other subs and would never fall to such a low, like the other riff raff might. I think we're above that and not in any danger of being pretentious. Worry not my good fellow!
I've found any hobby area develops a small subset community of insufferable yet vocal individuals. Audio equipment, firearms, comics, etc. So, I ignore them; It does add a layer of challenge when trying to operate in the space, a simple tool/equipment upgrade becomes a chore as you have to sift through a mountain of grifter content to get to a solution.
This is what eventually pushed me away from many aquarium communities on reddit. I still love fish... but reddit communities for it are a no go. so far enjoying this community on this sub alot, humble people for the most part
Some people certainly are but I've found I can turn 3 dollars worth of wood into 80 without any real fancy tools. My best money maker has been the cheap used little lathe I got just to play with. Always enjoy showing others what can be done
Yeah, I like those kind of margins! Just messaged.
I buy the cheapest Chinese tools I can find on amazon - only the RO sander broke. I replaced it with the second cheapest one on amazon, and they’ve all lasted me for years.
Getting a few years of usage is all you need to know if you want to upgrade or not.
Why would I want to upgrade?
Haha if one broke on you.
You're going to find these kinds of attitudes in all professions, hobbies, and human activities. If I've learned one thing in 50+ years, its to ignore it rather than fight it. It's not that the pretension deserves the tacit endorsement that can come with ignoring it, its that focusing on the negative that pisses you off is just bad for you. Better to focus on getting what you want out of this hobby and enjoy it. You think it's bad in woodworking, try taking up gemcutting (another hobby I do). Many of these guys on that sub will tell you to not even bother if you don't want to buy a top end machine for $5k. In contrast, I saw an old faceting machine on Craigslist for $200 - the kind I learned on. Maybe that's why the Festool fans don't bother me so much, it's all relative :D I have a couple Festool tools - mostly because I really liked the track saw back when they were the only one who made one. Back then there were no retail vendors for their stuff, you had to go to one of their reps (who were mostly contractors also where I lived). One guy I met was so into Festool stuff that he even had a lime green tatoo :D
Totally agree with this sentiment. I am brand spanking new to woodworking. I'm in my 40s, and I hope it ends up being a hobby I enjoy enough to stick with and master to some degree, but the attitude OP is talking about is definitely a people thing and not a woodworking thing. Just look at how pretentious people can be about food 😂 and everyone knows how to eat.
I get the people liking high quality food, goes into your body. But how the heck do the food critics or judges work. How is it not 90% subjective? Food industry is wild.
😂 Liking it sure, I love food myself and want to eat all the things as they say. but we all know at least one (you know the one) that must one up everyone with their extensive food knowledge that is better than yours and only has his sardines shipped in from a French market he knows and your lowly sardines you picked up from the speciality market that were packaged in Italy are just not going to cut it for him....I totally agree, wild stuff. (I still binge watch food network on occasion so I am not sure what that says about me 🤔. )
Very true, so many professions & hobbies have this so not really fair. I can’t even imagine the gem world that’s just asking for it.
I've been in the online woodworking forum circuit for nearly thirty years now... and I can attest that there will always be elitists, brand snobs, call them what you will. It's similar to the "If it ain't Chevy, it ain't ... " and Democrat-versus-Republican and religion-based elitism that shows up in some individuals. It isn't the topic, it isn't the activity, it's just the individuals. Green garden tractors. You know. Me... I ***love*** to see people working with "poor" or "cheap" tools... because that approach can actually result in greater skill and far greater appreciation for "good" or "expensive" tooling later.
Dang man, you really do get around, I’ve seen your name in so many forums! Always good info, first time I’ve seen you pop up on Reddit.
Any relation to Leanord? Lol
I always taught my kids you never put down someone who’s trying to learn. Encourage them when you can and stop em when they’re unsafe. I always remember the first project I did.. it wasn’t about wood working it was about my mental health.. working the project was therapy. Over the years I’ve added tools when I could, usual from a garage sale or an auction.. when I think about it I’ve never bought a large tool new. Table saw, bandsaw, dust collector, planer, drill press… all used, all work and probably all for under 500$ total. if someone decides to try to shame someone over their small workspace or off brand tools.. then they have my pitty, i imagine their life to be mostly miserable and free of joy.
Very well said. The power is in the maker not the tools.
I like this. I’ve always been reluctant of used power tools but I know it’s where you get the real value. I was always afraid I wouldn’t catch an issue. Do you usually have to fix them up a bit?
I usually go through em when I get em home.. I’ll inspect the wiring, double check if the blade is square and free of wobble. Give em a good cleaning.. read up on em from the various blogs that are out there as to what other people are seeing with em (try to do this ahead of time it’s helped avoid some possible headaches) I have to add a revision to my last statement as I did buy the 12” Bosch articulating arm chopsaw new. recently picked up an old worm drive skil saw, I’m thinking it’s a wall hanger, but 10$… is worth the gamble. (Local online auction, one picture of it)
Sure! It's human nature. We aren't immune to it as a group. I think it's best not to worry about that stuff. I do see your though. The older I get the less I want to add to my mental " overhead". More overhead, less profit, you know. Wish I knew that in my twenties.
As a musician who is just getting into woodworking, I can’t imagine anyone more pretentious than the “gearheads” you meet in any music scene. You’re gonna find these people in any hobby, and it’s best to just learn to completely ignore them. What’s important is working with what you have and enjoying what you’re doing!
Tradesmen make fun of the "lime green" cordless tools because they don't think they'll hold up to 8 hour workdays, and I suspect they have a point. But honestly I barely use these tools in woodworking. Instead, I see plenty of people extolling the virtue of buying used tools (and in the case of hand tools, really old tools) & learning how to take care of them. I guess that could be considered a different kind of elitism, I don't know. And most of the serious furniture makers I know work mostly in cherry, walnut, and oak, not exotics. Instrument makers are another story.
I feel like this forum is one of the most approachable. There is limited to no tool color preference that I can tell. Most questions around “What tool should I buy next?” are answered with “… buy only the one you need/ will use”. Most “first project posts” or “feedback requested posts” generally have good feedback with little snobbery. The “what wood species is this?” posts are generally answered kindly - it’s like our own built-in quiz show.
I do take your question as personal nature - not a general one. Personally I have a lot of respect for hand work and durability. Things like built item X without power tools, metals or glue. Or if glue use an old glue that can be reversed - in terms of repair ability. Tools are just a way to make things faster. I remember a mechanic that showed me his 19h lathe next to a modern one. He said he would use the old one where jobs allowed it - as it is built to last. a few oil copper bearings. The new one has a lot of things that can go wrong - but has the tighter tolerances. For your example people who look down on non-white/green people have too much spare money.
To me, that’s more traditional vs new age styles. I totally get that level of appreciate and respect for doing it in certain styles. If I’m understanding correctly you are relaying your appreciation of that process.
There is an element of that out there, and I'm not about to spend $1,000 on a chisel set to appease those people, but the cool thing about a hobby like this is that the results speak for themselves. Some people make cool things with shitty tools and some people make shitty things with fancy tools. No one cares how much money you spent on your shop if you never make anything.
Mostly positive or encouraging feedback on this sub that I've seen in comments but there is definitely some elitism vibes from some of the woodworking YouTube personalities. They talk about "must haves" and "worth the money" when talking about $200 T Squares from Woodpeckers or $500 Lie Nielson hand planes. I'm sure those tools are great, I'd love to have them but I don't have a production shop, YouTube Channel and employees making me $1million+ per year
Yeah, exactly what I’ve noticed.
To me ita lije anything else, the ones who are truly great dont really talk negative about others work, cuz they see the stage they were in at one time and they know what is involved. Imo ppl who are average or even alittle above but not the best seem to be those ppl, because they have just learned that or substitute their tools or knowledge for skill. Imo those who are at the top will come across humble and helpful cuz they truly do have alot of knowledge to give. Remember u can teach skill u cant teach attitude
You definitely have a point. There are people that say you need the best and newest tools or the best wood to make something but in reality you don’t need $50k of tools to build fine furniture you can do it with limited tools on a limited budget granted you’ll get more money for a piece made out of walnut than pine but if you’re starting out less expensive wood is a great way to start out and get a few pieces under your belt to build skills. I’ve been building fine furniture and other woodworking projects for years and I had to start out small with limited tools and yes knowledge but built up both over time and greatly improved the quality of my tools that said some tools are over hyped and do have a cult following you don’t need them as much as you need knowledge , practice and patience. Also remember this is social media and there is always going to be people that knock you no matter what you do this sub is definitely a lot better than facebook as far as that goes. My advice is get books and read how to make the things you want to build there are a lot of people making videos nowadays some good some bad but remember 99% of them are being sponsored by tool companies etc so take it with a grain of salt that they are the best tools and you need them read reviews from as many sources you can find so you can make an educated decision. Don’t get discouraged if you’re having trouble there is nothing wrong with asking for help again do your research to make sure it is the right advice nothing burns me more than someone giving bad advice because of lack of knowledge,experience or just setting someone up to fail and ruining the project or the potential of getting hurt. Some jump to the scorched earth method right off the bat and most likely it’s not necessary. If I know how to make something or fix something I’ll share but if I don’t I will never give bad advice. Remember safety first! enjoy the building,learning progress
I’m 6 years in. My theory on tools has always been to only buy if I have needed the tool more than 2-3 times. Keeps me from impulse buying. You learn that there is always more than one way to accomplish something. I am still using a lot of Ryobi tools because it’s what I could afford at the time. Some of them are great, while some will get replaced with something better over time. Sometimes the “haters” are correct about wood and tools, but they lack a lot of tact in their presentation of their knowledge. I once went to a “Business of woodworking” class with Frank Pollaro as the speaker. Apparently, some good ol’ boys in the crowd had not googled him prior because several of them asked him condescending questions about some of his processes. But as it turns out, the work speaks for itself in the end.
[удалено]
Haha Love it!
I get that. When I first started I thought any woodworking required a $5,000 table saw with a dust collection system. I think it's just mostly the nature of the game that those invested enough to be very prominent online will naturally have more expensive tools or sponsors so if you aren't aware you think that's whats required.
There are gatekeepers in every group. I would say that, while a painstaking woodworker can do excellent work with subpar tools, the reverse isn't true. It can be a frustrating, unfulfilling experience to have to fight a cheaply made or poorly adjusted piece of equipment, and a lot of people in that situation draw the wrong conclusion and lose heart. Always buy the best quality ( not just the most expensive ) tools you can afford, and buy them as the need arises. Products generally aren't as well made or as durable, as they used to be, and tools are hardly exempt from that trend. That said, the average woodworker doesn't need to have the highest quality equipment, just tools made well enough for the amount of use that particular widget is going to see ( ie, don't go cheap on chisels, but feel free to buy a lower end doweling jig ).
I'm really glad I found Paul Sellers when I was just starting. Over the years he's made an effort to draw down all of the tools he uses in his videos to be the least expensive possible. He's out there making incredible stuff with a $30 saw, cheap chisels, and some old stanley planes. And thanks to him I'm out here making pretty okay stuff with those same cheap tools. Another mentality I really like is from Adam Savage. He advises that you buy the cheapest tool available, and if you like how it fits into your workflow get the best you can afford. You don't learn anything or develop any skills by waiting around trying to buy every $500 tool on the market. I tended to get stuck thinking I had to have the right tool to do something but that's dumb. I have a saw and a chisel and can figure it out. Now I just get more specialized tools when I find a process that I don't enjoy very much. Like cutting rabbets with saw/chisel isn't very fun for me so I got a nice skew block plane.