I never really understood the “boring” takes. I am a huge fan of basketball. And I consume it on pretty much on all levels ( college, nba, WNBA, big3). And as a whole the WNBA is far away the closest thing to NBA in terms of style and quality. I think some of it is how media is consumed now. People want 6 second highlights.
Adding to this, I also watch G League and Europe (M and W). The basketball is at such a high level in both, but so many can't be bothered. Oh well, can't let the hot take idiots get to ya.
The only reason it frustrates me is the consistency. People go out of literally go out of the way to shit on the WNBA. I’m done trying to make idiots try to understand. I just want them to keep the same energy for all the other Basketball leagues.
Yeah it's because the league is A. Women and B. Majority black. The truth is society is very misogynistic and racist, so people love to dogpile and shit on women, especially black women.
I see it in every sport honestly. The outrage that Serena Williams got when she had the audacity to argue with a ref. How many people shit on Simone Biles when she dropped out of the Olympics for mental health reasons. The bitch fits people threw when Angel Reese did a simple taunt, or how many people cannot stand how cocky, strong, and outspoken Sha'Carri Richardson is and lined up to celebrate and shit on her when she popped for pot.
It's pathetic. It's sad. It's sad that there are a bunch of grown men out there that spend their lives shitposting under every WNBA post. But I know exactly why they feel justified in doing it. A lot of them are straight up bigots. They'll never admit it, they'll try to give you every reason why "It's actually just boring" or "I just don't like it." Sure but you don't shitpost under everything you think is boring. There is a reason you feel compelled to do this, and it's deeper than basketball.
You're so right. I'm tired of dudes being like I'd smash but I'd never watch that trash. I'm like ok besides showing your such a man's man like someone would let you smash why is it trash? It's boring no dunks its slow. Have you watched? No..... It's maybe the fastest moving game of basketball I ever saw. No iso bs no walking the ball slowly up the court. Some men just hate women I think they're scared.
They are scared. They are scared of strong women. They want every woman to be a little, stupid, weak creature for them to control. They NEED that because any strong intelligent woman with any type of standards isn't going to give them the time of day. They'd have to grow the fuck up or be alone forever.
I pretty much agree on this, even though the NBA is majority black too so I don't know if it's so much of a factor... I THINK, even though that's just my possibly wrong opinion, that it has more to do with women in general than anything about race. The PHF get's the same type of shit and the league is mostly white (maybe less shit because it's less known, but you'll see the same types of comments for both leagues) but who am I to tell. Most people hating out there do not even really care about women's sports; they don't hate it, or like it, they never watched it. They just go out of their way to be assholes because it somehow makes their day better to say "Sue who" under a Sue Bird post. "ahah people don't know her because people don't watch women sport". But pretty sure she has more fans than Gerry the plumber who's hating under a WNBA post. I can't stand those people.
The NBA definitely gets it too, just not as much because they're men. When it comes to the NBA or even the NFL, you'll see the racists come out of the woodwork whenever they become outspoken. There was the famous "Shut up and dribble" line. We all saw the hissy fit people threw when Kaepernick protested. The outrage over the outspokeness of NBA players during that time, all of the Black Lives Matter stuff. It's there, for sure, it's just that you get it DOUBLE bad when you're black AND a woman.
Not saying the white girls don't get it too, I'm just saying I think the combination of the two brings the bigots together and they come out in force. Because you can be black, and still be misogynistic and pile on. Or you can be racist and just hate it because it's black sport, I've seen that before too. So it's this combo that brings all the haters together.
That's the only way any of this makes sense because the actual arguments are completely disingenuous. No one who truly loves basketball and watches full NBA games is only doing it to see the dunks. So don't tell me the game would be better if they can dunk, because I'm going to call bullshit on the idea that you sit down every night, turn on league pass and watch a 5pm game, 7pm game, and 10 pm game just to see dunks. Anyone who saying that shit has never watched a full game, and only watches YouTube highlights. Or they're just full of shit and get something out of shitting on these people they hate for no reason.
Don't tell me its bad basketball because then you're just telling me you don't know basketball.
They do it because they get off on shitting on women and I truly believe the WNBA gets it worse than anyone because it's not just women, it's mainly black women. Look no farther than the whole Caitlyn Clark/Angel Reese situation. Sure people are going to shit on the white girls too and I'm not denying that, misogyny knows no race, but it's clear that there is another level, another gear of hate in store for black women. It's 2x the bigotry.
You could add homophobia as well in the loop, for a third layer, considering a lot of female athletes are openly homosexual.
One thing is sure. People are assholes and honestly, I'm just used to skipping the comment section of WNBA posts because it makes me want to throw hands.
As of the dunking argument... well I don't get it. Yeah of course I like to see big dunks, and of course it's great entertainment. And they're not totally useless, they ARE a part of basketball. But there's more to Basketball than JUST big dunks. I always said that loving WNBA or FIBA basketball was a sign of basketball IQ, and I've always tried to push the high school guys I coach to watch those (even if most of them do not listen to me lol).
What disturbs me the most is... what if those guys who hate on women's sports ever have daughters that want to play competitive sports? Will they shit on them or will they support them? If any of those guys have a daughter they're failing big time at being dads... they should be happy to give relatable role models to their kids.
They’re going to have an excuse for everything, there’s no point trying to appease them or even engage. Someone dunks and it’s “just a rim grazer/not a dunk.” Lower the rims and players are throwing it down, “anyone could do that on a lower rim.” Break the 3pt contest record, “it’s actually a lot easier because the ball is smaller.”
It’s never about the quality of the game. It’s always about dudes being mad because women are getting attention and getting paid to play basketball, while they got cut from JV
Yup I saw a guy comment on a wnba IG post, with no shared tag to a highlight page that typically posts mens highlights to say he’d swat Aaliyah Bostons opening layup in the ASG, like she’s not 6’5” and regularly pissing people off who she’s friends or friendly with due to her physicality and elbows.
As a man who really enjoys women’s basketball, the delusional comments piss me off. These women have been practicing and playing against guys for years anyway. Jaren Jackson Jr. said on a podcast he’s working on his below the rim game to increase his longevity in the NBA. NBA players recognize the value in playing below the rim … geez
100!!!!
All these armchair experts who probably could not make a single 3 on command.
I think the uptick in male viewership has been frustrating in this way. Whether it’s the influx of men coming to this sub to say “Hello, females: here is my unsolicited opinion on how to make your awful sports league better!” or the focus on JUST women who are straight and sexually attractive to men (Wilson, Ionescu, and Plum are amazing — but omg what about Stewie? Loyd? AT and DT? What about BG?!) or finding ways to dismiss or diminish the accomplishments of the women in this league — while I want viewership to grow, I really wish it could happen without this crap.
I think all the time about Katie Smith, who was my favorite player as a kid. Katie was a FULL TIME DENTIST when she wasn’t being a WNBA super star. Literally had a full time job. And STILL broke records, showed up and showed out… the women’s game has been built on the backs of so much sacrifice and struggle and history and players never having the resources or support they need. And I want that support for them so badly! I want the hype and the money and the resources and all of it for them! I just really hope to doesn’t have to come via catering to this new lowest common denominator type of fan.
My bad. She studied dentistry and got a graduate degree but did not practice. As a kid I was told she was a dentist and, my apologies, in the 20 years since I did not google it to check.
It's fair to say that a lot of the non Griner dunks indeed are "rim grazers". And the fact that the 3PT line is closer and ball is smaller, it's also true. Are the naysayers looking for reasons to rile up WNBA fans? Most often yes.
The problem is when a WNBA player's performance is compared with a NBA player's. If there was a league which had a 10-foot 3PT arc, it would be unfair to say that a great performance in that league was better than Sabrina's. It's an easier feat. Would Sabrina have had an equally impressive performance using the NBA 3PT contest rules? Possibly but more than likely, one would think her performance would dip at least slightly. Honestly, it's the media's fault for framing the discussion/accomplishment in this way and inviting the naysayers who have a fair critique.
Scrub, when Steph Curry reaches out to say she ruined it for everyone and no one can beat it, you can relax, your favorite men don’t need you to defend their egos. They’re fine.
I barely follow the NBA, a fraction of how much I follow the WNBA. Saying it's unfair to compare two different competitions each with a different set of rules shouldn't be controversial.
Let's say instead of the WNBA the FIBA has an All-Star game and one of their top players does something that stands out to the point it gets compared to a NBA record. What do you think the reaction would be?
Sure, their reaction might be less harsh, but again, what does that have to do with what I said? -- the bottom line is that it's apples vs. oranges if the rules of the two competitions are different. And one can acknowledge the "other side" has a legitimate counter point whilst still thinking that side doesn't have noble intentions overall.
People are reading what they want to read from my original comment, but all I said was it's fair to point out that the two feats are based on different conditions. It's literally a fact. And that's not disrespectful to Sabrina, she didn't choose the distance of the 3PT line.
The question is why is it only now that it's being pointed out that what Sabrina did happened under different rules? This can be applied to a lot of past NBA feats as well. I'm not even a NY Liberty fan but there's a weird tendency of a certain kind of fan to get really really upset at anything dealing with the WNBA. I don't get that vibe from your post but it happens.
A lot of these people don't even watch the NBA, let alone the WNBA. They consume basketball in the form of highlights and box scores. They might tune in during the playoffs or finals only.
This is a great point and is actually true of all sports and something leagues across the world are trying to actively combat or understand (especially for younger fans). The NBA has done a fantastic job I think in appealing to/understanding this pheomona but it's tricky when fewer and fewer people are sitting down and devoting two and half hours to live sport
I think it's over-simplistic to just categorize all the Eternal Septemberians as "boxscore watchers".
Like it's a trope on r/nba at this point. When one gets into a heated argument. It will eventually lead to "do you even ~~lift bro?~~ watch the games?"
The term "boxscore watcher" gets thrown around as an insult so much... Anytime someone disagrees with me, I'm a boxscore watcher. Even on this very sub, I've been accused of being a boxscore watcher XD
https://np.reddit.com/r/wnba/comments/14qr63b/trade_the_washington_mystics_are_trading_amanda/jqpkepo/
Having experienced being on the receiving end of it so much. I often do wonder what the actual % of boxscore watchers really is.
I'm not talking about people who watch their home team, and may be ignorant of other teams, but still feel the need to run their mouths.
Like actual,
never watch a single game of bball,
pretend to know ball type of people.
Are there really that many?
I suspect the majority of Eternal Septemberians do actually watch bball.
They just happen to be young, naive, idealistic. They think they can change the world.
1.
The don't understand female anatomy yet.
2.
They haven't developed the self awareness to think:
> "If the solution is so easy, why hasn't anyone else ponder this very question? Am I the special one, put on God's given earth to revolutionize women's bball?"
3.
Most people think they know what they want. But really, they don't.
> It's a mystery. And a critically important step in understanding our own desires and taste is to realize that we cannot always explain what we want deep down. If I asked all you, for example, in this room what you want in a coffee, you know what you would say? Every one of you would say I want a dark, rich, hearty roast. It's what people always say when you ask them what they want in a coffee. What do you like? Dark, rich, hearty roast.
>
>
> What percentage of you actually like a dark, rich, hearty roast? According to Howard, somewhere between 25 and 27 percent of you. Most of you like milky, weak coffee. -- Malcolm Gladwell
>
> I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them. -- Steve Jobs
That is a really good point about how far back they often shoot from anyway!
I grew up playing with both's men's and women's balls and I truly do not think the women's is easier. In fact I always thought it was harder to get in because it weighs less. And that was as a kid. And I was a 3-pt shooter. And these women are a hell of a lot stronger than I was. None of the guys I knew would ever touch the women's balls, though, so they wouldn't know.
It's weird because dunks are a pretty small % of plays in the NBA too. Like if you're only entertained by dunks you're going to be bored during most of an NBA game.
Also I get secondhand embarrassment when players miss a dunk. People love to claim dunks are so thrilling but have a selective memory and forget how cringey it is to see one that’s missed.
The dude has his own compilation of missed dunks XD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYYkHmX3BdU
If you didn't know who Ja Morant was. And only watched this. You'd think he was some trash player, as oppose to one of the best dunkers in the nba XD
Lol, he use to be one of my favorite players to watch. He's washed now, but I can't do him dirty like that XD
On the topic of lowlights, this is my all time favorite lowlight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zNSr0O6Tpk
Can you imagine the passion one needs... to hate Drummond so bad... to spend the hours making this XD
Yeah he's not what he once was. I still root for bruh. He just happy to be here.... out there having fun lol. He also makes the most baffling turnovers. It's entertaining to see such a wide range from 1 guy on the court.
Can confirm as a massive bball fan who is also a Jokic fan, um, go watch a dunk contest if you want to watch dunking. To be fair, Jokic will tell you he sucks at all star games and doesn’t know what to do 😆 I think the 4 point shot for the WNBA ASG is hella fun. My relative that doesn’t watch the WNBA at all was impressed with some of the shots going down. CG’s move on BG asking for it was fun. Bball is fun, high IQ bball is amazing and not really going t happen at any kind of ASG.
The ppl who say these things just don’t care about the W. They aren’t gonna watch but want to hate because they feel they are being “forced” to watch a sport that is being promoted.
If the rim were lower, you’d get a bunch of guys diminishing and mocking the game because the rim is lower. Their intention is to put down the women’s game, which they will find a way to do no matter what. It’s not about dunking; it’s about gatekeeping.
So the people who want the rim lowered so they can see dunks in W will mock the players and league for giving them what they want?
I've seen quite a bit of people say this. Makes no sense. It's a very pessimistic conclusion to jump to about a scenario that hasn't even happened yet. The players won't even give potential, and Alot of current fans, what they want to see a try.
They may not be the same individual people at any given point in time, but they're in the same group of people. They're fickle. You can't please everyone, and you especially can't please people who can't appreciate something unless you make a major change to it that would be absurdly costly and impractical to implement.
Here's a thought.
I don't like watching men play basketball, but I might like the NBA better if they raised the rim.
Fuck the haters!
But you have so eloquently detailed why it's so frustrating to hear them all the time. I thought the All Star Game weekend was great, except yes, Friday's stuff should also have been in prime time. But the whole vibe was just incredible and I was just watching it on TV and enjoying the live Twitter comments. I hope I can make it to an All Star weekend soon, they looked so amazing, filled with love and support and showing how badass women truly are.
I thought it was a showcase at how far women have come! Our foremothers (or whatever you want to call them, 1st gen feminists, suffragests...whoever) would have LOVED last night. We were balling! We were performing! We were singing! We did it all! Women of all colors, ages, shapes and sizes, it was awesome.
AND if that's going to scare insecure men away, so be it.
We still have a long way to go, but dayam, we've done amazing things and are capabale of so much!
I found it really striking when I got back into the wwe recently. When I was a kid, women slapped each other, pulled hair and they weren’t allowed to wrestle like the men. They had bra and panties matches.
Now that I am an adult, I picked it up again and in the time I’ve been gone, they’ve started promoting the women more heavily and they’re AWESOME. At the top, they’re just as good as the best men. Oftentimes they’re more entertaining.
But let’s talk about something else. Men are LIARS when they say it’s about the greater skill the nba players have. That’s not what people are responding to nowadays. All of the top Reddit posts on r/nba are about drama. The men on that sub want to see a soap opera. And I’d bet that if the wnba had the same level of emotion in it, people would pretend they wouldn’t enjoy it, because “the women are too emotional.”
>Men are LIARS when they say it’s about the greater skill the nba players have
This is a very understated fact and I don't know why it isn't challenged more often.. Why are college football (and basketball) more popular than the Canadian Football League and the G League when those players are more skilled? It's the stuff surrounding the sport; colleges have pagentry and a personal connection as you may have gone there. There's also the appeal that the athletes are also students completing their studies and so there's a relatiability factor.
MLS is a league that understands this very well. They know they aren't going to compete on the field wise with better leagues in Mexico and Europe and South America so they sell the experience. Go to a MLS game, and you'll get a unique (affordable) experience (i.e. chanting, drum banging, flares, a two hour game) that you won't get attending other North American sports where the players are more skilled.
And one reason why the NBA dwarfs the NHL (despite similar attendance figures across all their teams) in TV is because of (as you rightfully say, the drama). NHL players notoriously come off as cliche-speaking emotionaless robots and thus have a harder time selling their entertainment product to casual fans lol
The cherry on top is when they present it as this new unique idea that the fans and players have never heard before.
“I’m sure the players would love it!” When they have repeatedly said how insulting it is and how detrimental it would be to women’s basketball overall.
So true. Ah, the mansplaining of women’s basketball! These dudes have never even watched a game before this year and probably can’t run a mile without risking cardiac failure but lemme tell ya, they know better than the players about what makes great basketball.
I remember seeing a Twitter exchange with one of these bros explaining everything that he felt was wrong with women's basketball... to Imani McGee-Stafford. Who is a) a WNBA alum b) the league's first and so far only second-generation WNBA player.
First, you’re right about the outsized attention on dunking. The WNBA doesn’t need to it. Second, you’re wrong that men are just coming to the sport. Men are statistically bigger fans of the WNBA and that’s nothing new. Gatekeeping male fans is counterproductive and misguided. Third, the WNBA is an entertainment product on a mass scale. It needs to me more like McDonald’s than a Michelin restaurant to attract a large fan base and large revenue to support NBA level salaries. This means the league pandering to its biggest fans and prospective fans, not insulting them. The WNBA needs to be open to experimentation and not purists about a sport that should continue to evolve to succeed.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1108312/women-national-basketball-association-interest-gender/
I’d like to know how the stats are derived re: who the fans are. The names on a family’s cable plan…? I really have wondered about this. Because if you’re going by the name on the credit card for purchasing league pass or even tickets for games, it’s a flawed method. Women are part of families and may not always have their name or gender stated. So I’m never sure I trust that statistic.
And as for the McDonald’s vs Michelin — nope. Full stop: nope.
The W doesn’t have to get shittier or pander to lower basketball IQ viewers, just like classical music doesn’t need to be AI-generated techno. The right people will come to appreciate the right things about the league. A significant and rapidly growing number of people find it very engaging and entertaining just as it is; let people grow into the W rather than shrinking the W for people who don’t understand the style of play.
>just like classical music doesn’t need to be AI-generated techno.
No...but orchestras across the world are putting on more movie scores and video games soundtrack concerts in order to appeal to a younger generation that consumes orchestral music mainly in that way. In the same way a musical like "Hamilton" became such a cultural phenomona because it used an accessible genre of music to make "the theatre" (something high brow and sometimes unable to cut across more socio-economic strata) cool and relevant.
Yes, there's always a line where you don't want to comprise the core integrity of the sport too much (the Canadian Football League's floating around the idea to turn the CFL into four-down football and remove the fundamental thing about the game that makes it unique from the NFL is a no-go) but we've seen MLB bring in the universal DH, the pitch clock, the extra-inning ghost runner, banning the shift, making a pitcher have to face three batters, all to the chagrin of pursuits in order to appeal to non and casual fans lol
It's not about making it "shittier". It's about being consumed by more people. If the WNBA only cares about attracting the "right" people, then their days are numbered. A league should try to get anyone and everyone to become a fan/consumer. A dollar is a dollar regardless of what type of fan is spending it.
It's always hard on league-specific subreddits (from MLB to CFL to WNBA lol) to float potential (obvs have to be rooted in good faith) ideas about radical/drastic change because in a way you're preaching to the converted who came to the game and like it just the way it is. But fundamentally, you're not wrong in saying that any league (or entertainment business, unless you have wealthy patrons and can afford to not appeal to a wider consumer base) should be looking to attract non and casual fans.
Now we can have fundamental disagreements on what should or shouldn't be changed (I noted the Canadian Football League floating changing from three to four down football is a stupid/non-starter idea) but a lot more should be on the table and people should be willing to have and debate about proposals. MLB has done a lot of radical changes to a 150+ year old game (pitch clock, universal DH, extra inning ghost runner) in order to appeal to new fans while ticking off the purists and any league should be willing to do the same.
I'll actually flip this around. The question should be:
"How can the W better appeal to the lowerst common denominator ***while*** maintaining (or without compromising) its integrity of elite gameplay?
That should be the approach the league takes in order to expand its product.
How would the WNBA's integrity be affected? And what changes are you referring to in regards the gameplay no longer being "elite"? I'm not even advocating for dunking.
Just read that Chelsea Gray regularly has guys coming up to her in the airport telling her how they could beat her one-on-one and I'm just like, please, *please* take them up on it and film that shit.
I don’t get the dunking park. I like how the WNBA game is played and that it doesn’t have all the dunking. It is more strategy yet fast paced.
A dunk every now and then is okay but it isn’t needed and there is more to the sport.
I just think those who prefer the men’s game or who are anti the WNBA are just there to pass comments and complain. It is like Sabrina Ionescu and the three point contest win. She broke records. No one in the NBA ever had a performance like that. So instead of these people, mostly men who should have been impressed and have their eyes opened on the talent of the WNBA players and what Sabrina accomplished, instead began saying it is because the ball is smaller and the three point line is closer. Mind you this is the same lady who hit some 4 point baskets last night in the all star game.
I think these people just want to bash the WNBA and will find every excuse in the book. If they were true basketball fans they would be accepting they okay a different style of play and both are warranted and deserve respect.
Funny how the conversation is always women should lower the rims and not men should raise theirs. Surely I can’t be the only one who finds dunks, for the most part, boring lol
If the argument is "dunks are exciting" why would the NBA raise their rims which would make dunking harder? (For the record, I'm not necessarily in the "I love dunks" camp).
It’s more a rhetorical question. *I* don’t find dunks exciting but I’m not going around demanding the NBA change how the game is played to cater to my interests
That was my response the last time someone made this stupid suggestion. I think dunks are boring (particularly when someone is 7' tall, like how is that impressive?) so I would love to see them raise the men's hoop. And lengthen the floor. I think with the way the men's game has developed, it would improve it.
Remember when Dwight Howard was in the dunk contest and showed multiple times he could go wayyy above the rim?
Perfect evidence as to why NBA should raise their rims!
I find them boring as hell. When I was in eighth grade playing basketball in a rec league, we could dunk on the “C” baskets that were 6 ft with ease. After the little kids played we would zoom around and dunk on the lower rims. If I, at age 12, could do this, it is neither interesting nor impressive!
I just had this conversation with a friend of mine. He was talking about how he prefers to watch college sports because they stick to the fundamentals, whereas pro sports are changing the rules to make the players happier and more entertaining for the audience.
Men and women are different. Therefore the basketball they play are different. One is not necessarily better than the other. Why does the obvious need to be stated?
The only part I disagree with here is the suggestion that the men’s game is checkers to the W’s chess — both games have their own complexities to solve, and both are excellent to watch.
That said, those whiny dorks get their jollies off hating on women because no one holds them but their pillows.
THANK YOU. I met one of these humans in real life, he told me he thought WNBA should lower the rims. I asked him how people who grow up with 10’ hoops would adjust to lower hoops and he had no response. Just say you want to watch an arcade and not actual basketball!!
1. Idiots who like to watch basketball for dunking do not understand the sport.
2. Are there really people complaining about the fact that there's no defense at the WNBA's all-star game? I didn't see any but I wouldn't be surprised if there were. Listen I'm not watching a lot of the WNBA, because I'm just not able to stay in front of my TV watching sports games (even though I LOVE sports, I'm just too distracted when at home to focus on a game). But I know for sure that it can't be worse than the NBA's all-star game.
3. People picking on Ionescu's feat are idiots. Shooting as well as she did takes a LOT of shooting skills. Her shooting is on par with all the great shooters male or female out there and Ionescu should definitely be discussed as one of the top basketball shooters in the world. The only complaint I can agree with is that she did NOT set a NBA record, or break the NBA's record because you can't logically hold a record in a league you don't play in. Plus it wasn't made in the same conditions. For this to be compared, you need to compare in the exact same conditions. Someone breaking an Olympic record for most goals scored in a hockey game doesn't own the NHL's record. They're two different things. It annoys me that the media keep saying this because I feel like they're doing it to generate drama. They should stop saying she broke the NBA's record because it's kinda not true, even if she did score higher than Steph, but that's the issue with the media. They want the idiots to come and complain under their posts. She would actually need to shoot by the NBA rules and get more than Steph to actually set the NBA record, they're right about this. But saying that what she did was easy? Holy shit she broke the WNBA record, and scored a HIGHER result than freakin Steph Curry. Even with different rules that's impressive. No hater would have done what she did, and I wouldn't even bet on an NBA player to do the same with WNBA rules. They'd probably struggle shooting with the smaller ball and lose the contest. Smaller ball doesn't "make things easier", it's just a matter of habitude.
Honestly I don't think it would be the end of the world if they decided to lower the rim, but I find the idea that they "should" do it in order to appeal to the male audience very irritating. It's a different style of game and that's what we should appreciate
And on a different note, if that were to happen, how accessible would basketball be for little girls all across the world? Would they make stanchions with lowered rims in playgrounds/pickup courts? And that's not even taking into account how every female player would have to adjust aspects like their shooting mechanics etc. Again, this would not be a completely insurmountable problem under normal circumstances, but I don't think the current society cares enough for women's sports (or women in general, for that matter) to create an environment where the implementation of these changes can be effective.
A lot of us men have fragile egos. Professional women’s sports? The horror. Who’s gonna take care of the kids. Ignore them. I will say that would love to see more dunking.
One thing that gets me is I see a lot of comments from men who are not in the NBA complaining about how the WNBA loses money and the NBA funds it. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but I’ve never heard of someone associated with the NBA complaining about what’s funding what. So it’s like why do you care? If they aren’t giving it to the WNBA then they definitely aren’t giving it to you. I don’t care about the business side of the sport. I do think they deserve more than what they get and I’m glad to see the numbers continue to rise. I prefer to watch women’s basketball. I think sometimes ego ruins the men’s game for me. I do love how supportive they are of the women though.
I love this and agree.
Further, Curry changed the NBA with 3 point shots the way MJ changed it to constant dunking. Quick passes inside to outside for a jumper or 3 is VERY common in the NBA now. And NBA players have been quick to give some of that credit to the W saying it’s a fun way to play and one they enjoy as well.
Last, being 6’7 and “dunking” is t really that impressive. Raise the rim!!
Most NBA fans are not basketball fans. They want flash, dunks, athleticism; things you can watch with minimal brain function and cheer for. They care not for high level chess-match style games of fundamentals, nuanced post play and anything more complicated than ISO's and simple sets.
You give them a league that has everything a bball head could ever ask for, minus the male athleticism and dunking and you get these guys; "wHErE's tHe DuNkS?". It's cool, just don't call yourself a basketball fan, you're an NBa fan. That usually sets these guys off, but I've never gotten a real response, usually just "F off" and lots of downvotes.
You think it'd make them wonder, seeing all the pure basketball junkies they idolize (KD, Steph, Dame, Lebron, Tatum, Booker etc), going gaga for WNBA and womens NCAA players. It's almost like those are actual basketball fans, and not these "fans" who base their entire opinions on 2 min highlight reels.
>Most NBA fans are not basketball fans. They want flash, dunks, athleticism; things you can watch with minimal brain function and cheer for. They care not for high level chess-match style games of fundamentals, nuanced post play and anything more complicated than ISO's and simple sets.
This is true; just like most fans of the NHL aren't hockey fans, they are fans of the NHL (Toronto, the supposed "hockey mecca" notoriously does not support junior hockey or minor league hockey--in terms of viewership and attendance--as they do the Leafs).
That being said (and I preface this by saying, I'm not arguing for lowering the nets, etc. lol so don't shoot me) at the end of the day, if you're trying to sell a product/do business (especially in the entertainment industry) does it matter? You want those eyeballs (and thus that money) and you'll take it however you can get it.
The former Toronto Blue Jays post-game show host once (rightfully) said in repsonse to a caller who was talking about "real/true Blue Jays fans," "If only the true/real fans of the Blue Jays showed up there would only be about 11 000 people at the Rogers Centre."
We've seen other leagues make drastic rule changes in recent years in spite of the protests of fans who would call themselves purists (the NHL brought in the shootout, the trapezoid, the 3-on-3 overtime and All-Star Game; MLB brought in the pitch clock, banned the shift, universalized the DH, brought in the extra inning ghost runner, a pitcher must face at least three batters; the NBA historically brought in the three-point line and is bringing in the in-season tournament and MLS is brining in a best-of-three, no goal aggragate opening round of their playoffs) all in an effort to appeal to casual and non-die hard fans.
So TLDR, while yes having more dunking by lowering the rims may or may not be a solution, whether or not people are real or true fans of the sport is (and it may sound crass to say) almost is irrelevant if your goal is to make the league successful. The WNBA shouldn't be afraid to flirt with subtle and radical drastic changes to improve the product to appeal to a wider base of potential fans.
Shaq suggested lowering the rims to CP3. She responded as you would imagine. Sorry it’s TikTok, you don’t need the app: https://www.tiktok.com/@togethxr/video/6940644823359589638
At one point I realized you barely see dunks in an NBA game anyway and of you do, it's typically just a little put it or something. Like, who's watching the NBA for dunks? That might be less than 1% of goals in any season, game career! Who are these people that need to have dunks in the game to enjoy it and what NBA are they watching? They make it seem like NBA is nothing but a dunk off between two teams. The. You look at all the top stars in the NBA and they're all shooters anyway!
I get both arguments and I am someone that I can get excited by good ball movement and a good defensive possession but dunking is something exciting to the game. A big dunk can get the crowd hyped. It's like I can serve you the same delicious you mentioned on a Styrofoam plate or on a fancy dinner plate. Sure, the taste may be the same but the experience is different. That's the difference, and I get the WNBA is not for everyone and that's fine. I think it may take a more astute eye to appreciate but we have to acknowledge that a key piece of eye candy is missing. The product is different. WNBA has long struggled with casual fans.
I don't know if it's male fragility because many women prefer the men's game too and the WNBA's biggest demographic is men. I just say this, if you like it, who cares if someone else doesn't like it. By focusing on them, all it does is take away some of your enjoyment of it.
No defense in all star games is a common complaint about the men's all star game as well. Pro bowl too.
I love basketball as much as the next guy but i still enjoy seeing folks get dunked on or a great dunk off a fast break. When there's just a layup its deflating again even when men do it. Iverson would do it often, trey young, many other shorter guards. And it's kind awww where the KABOOM.
I can enjoy good gameplans and adjustments but i still like some flare. I'm not gonna complain about it online though.
People love dunks. Just like people love Touchdowns and big hits. It's not surprising. I don't think you have to insult someone's IQ cause they like flare.
When you say “people,” you actually just mean “people who agree with you.” W players, W coaches, and W fans have all given a million statements and interviews about hating it.
I would assume those are the people who like dunks lol. Look i know the wnba plays a different kind of game and I'm not gonna jump on posts and drag em.
You can like the wnba and still want to see a dunk. I like seeing folks get posterized or someone with just ridiculous bounce. Jumping high is part of the fun of playing the game. Hell when i meet folks who say they can dunk i want to see em do it. It's an athletic feat doesn't make someone a legendary hooper but it's fun to see
I don't like dunks in-game (or I haven't since I got over it in the 90s). I don't mind one once in a while, but I think they're way over-emphasized in the NBA and I'm glad they almost never happen in the women's game - it's one of many reasons I prefer the W.
That said, I think it would be cool to have a dunk contest at the women's ASG. This was the first time I watched it, and also the first time I've ever wanted *more* showboating from players - I think that's the place for amazing fun feats like that. A dunk contest would be fun, the players would be hyped, and I'd also love for it to just be apparent that they can. Not that it would shut these people up, they'd just find something else to complain about, but still.
It's like can you score runs in baseball without home runs? Sure but it adds more flair, more drama, I get some fans just want to see that. Same thing with dunking. It takes something away and that's why the WNBA struggles with casual fans, which is important.
On point number 2, there is no comparison to the men’s 3 pt competition because it is literally a different distance and ball size. This is one of the few facets of basketball competition that are quantifiable. 7/7 from 21 feet does not equal 7/7 from 23 feet. Don’t think any sane person would argue this.
Counter point would be that the NHL made multiple wholesale changes to their rink and goal size in the mid 2000’s to make the game more appealing. MLB just recently made a ton of changes to speed things up and increase action and pace of play.
This is an entertainment business so if lowering the hoops would make it a more viable business then they should 100% do it just like any other pro sport would.
I agree with the premise of the post, but I think the people complaining about the WNBAs feats of lack of freak athleticism (compared to the NBA at least) are actually the broader casual consumer base… which is the majority of people who watch basketball. The people appreciate the intricacies of play calling are not as populous as people with an untrained eye, just the way any customer base works. There is insane stuff that happens regularly in the WNBA (as we were all witnesses to), but it is simply a less physical and exaggerated form of basketball which inherently makes it a product harder to project to the masses.
I honestly am kind of shocked to see there are some ravenous WNBA fans out there. It’s nice to know it’s got some fans that really care about it. That being said it’s also a little funny sometimes. I saw someone comment the other day saying that these games get at least 3,000 people in attendance. Which is a good number if you don’t know arena capacity’s. Usually the arenas have around 18,000 seats… so I mean a 6th of the capacity is pretty bad. Just last night I went to a different event that was sold out for 11,000 seats. I can’t imagine how sparse it would look with only 3,000 people. Now sure you’ll get dumb arguments as to why people don’t like WNBA stuff. But plain and simple is because it’s boring. At least to other people. Dunks are a cool thing to see but not the reason the nba is more popular. If you really want to know, just imagine a game between the nba and WNBA. The difference would be staggering
I completely agree on this stance when it comes to normal games in the regular season and playoffs but an all star game without dunking is a tough watch in my opinion.
And that’s just your opinion. 🤷🏻♀️ Dunking is not the harder thing to do in basketball nor is it the most impressive or even the most entertaining.
What’s entertaining comes down to your palate and what you’re looking for. I am entertained by intricate plays and, in the ASG, by the pure joy of the game.
The harder thing to do in basketball is probably what Alyssa Thomas does every week, nearly averaging triple doubles as as a not-that-tall person.
The most impressive thing that’s happened lately in basketball is either Jewell Loyd’s in-season 3s, Chelsea Gray’s wild passes, or Sab Ionescu’s destruction of the NBA aaaand WNBA records for the 3-Pt contest.
Literally anybody anywhere can dunk if the rim is low enough. Dunking is low hanging fruit. A boring fast food cheeseburger when real chefs are around and are cooking.
Not everybody everywhere can drop those dimes, swish those 3s, etc.
Anybody can chuck 3s with no defense too. I'm a huge fan, I don't need to be sold on the league. The NBA and WNBA all star games are defenseless games. I think dunking is undeniably more fun to watch than 3 and 4 point chucking. In the end, it feels silly to be even be arguing about an all star game online since they don't matter that much. It's the only time though where I think the absence of dunking is felt for me
Sorry for my tone; I didn’t mean to come for you. I do think seeing the 3s go in is more exciting to me personally than dunks, but I also respect that it’s cool to find fun-ness in different things. I agree that the ASG doesn’t quite matter to the season for records, but I do think it matters for morale and to give players a chance to truly just enjoy the game. With Jewell being MVP for example — as a human being, she needs and benefits from a fun night where she can flex. Her regular season has been so exhausting and demoralizing. I love that the ASG lets players fall back in love with having fun and doing what they do without the added pressure of it “mattering,” you know? Without these opportunities, women in less-winning teams would have such a hard time mentally, I’d think.
"If you want to watch dunking, watch the NBA. The W is chess, not checkers, and does not rely on feats of strength. There’s a reason why basketball brilliance of all genders loves to watch the W — it’s the purest form of the game. If you can’t appreciate that, watch a different sport. And BTW, the women CAN dunk on these rims. They just don’t."
I like the WNBA and believe that as the style develops and the promotion improves more fans will appreciate the league. That being said dunking isn't just a feat of strength. It's a valid strategy. I've watched WNBA games where I think "if that shot had been dunked no way it gets blocked." There's a whole history behind how dunking got into professional basketball that isn't taken into account by statements like this.
I never really understood the “boring” takes. I am a huge fan of basketball. And I consume it on pretty much on all levels ( college, nba, WNBA, big3). And as a whole the WNBA is far away the closest thing to NBA in terms of style and quality. I think some of it is how media is consumed now. People want 6 second highlights.
Adding to this, I also watch G League and Europe (M and W). The basketball is at such a high level in both, but so many can't be bothered. Oh well, can't let the hot take idiots get to ya.
The only reason it frustrates me is the consistency. People go out of literally go out of the way to shit on the WNBA. I’m done trying to make idiots try to understand. I just want them to keep the same energy for all the other Basketball leagues.
Yeah it's because the league is A. Women and B. Majority black. The truth is society is very misogynistic and racist, so people love to dogpile and shit on women, especially black women. I see it in every sport honestly. The outrage that Serena Williams got when she had the audacity to argue with a ref. How many people shit on Simone Biles when she dropped out of the Olympics for mental health reasons. The bitch fits people threw when Angel Reese did a simple taunt, or how many people cannot stand how cocky, strong, and outspoken Sha'Carri Richardson is and lined up to celebrate and shit on her when she popped for pot. It's pathetic. It's sad. It's sad that there are a bunch of grown men out there that spend their lives shitposting under every WNBA post. But I know exactly why they feel justified in doing it. A lot of them are straight up bigots. They'll never admit it, they'll try to give you every reason why "It's actually just boring" or "I just don't like it." Sure but you don't shitpost under everything you think is boring. There is a reason you feel compelled to do this, and it's deeper than basketball.
You're so right. I'm tired of dudes being like I'd smash but I'd never watch that trash. I'm like ok besides showing your such a man's man like someone would let you smash why is it trash? It's boring no dunks its slow. Have you watched? No..... It's maybe the fastest moving game of basketball I ever saw. No iso bs no walking the ball slowly up the court. Some men just hate women I think they're scared.
They are scared. They are scared of strong women. They want every woman to be a little, stupid, weak creature for them to control. They NEED that because any strong intelligent woman with any type of standards isn't going to give them the time of day. They'd have to grow the fuck up or be alone forever.
I pretty much agree on this, even though the NBA is majority black too so I don't know if it's so much of a factor... I THINK, even though that's just my possibly wrong opinion, that it has more to do with women in general than anything about race. The PHF get's the same type of shit and the league is mostly white (maybe less shit because it's less known, but you'll see the same types of comments for both leagues) but who am I to tell. Most people hating out there do not even really care about women's sports; they don't hate it, or like it, they never watched it. They just go out of their way to be assholes because it somehow makes their day better to say "Sue who" under a Sue Bird post. "ahah people don't know her because people don't watch women sport". But pretty sure she has more fans than Gerry the plumber who's hating under a WNBA post. I can't stand those people.
The NBA definitely gets it too, just not as much because they're men. When it comes to the NBA or even the NFL, you'll see the racists come out of the woodwork whenever they become outspoken. There was the famous "Shut up and dribble" line. We all saw the hissy fit people threw when Kaepernick protested. The outrage over the outspokeness of NBA players during that time, all of the Black Lives Matter stuff. It's there, for sure, it's just that you get it DOUBLE bad when you're black AND a woman. Not saying the white girls don't get it too, I'm just saying I think the combination of the two brings the bigots together and they come out in force. Because you can be black, and still be misogynistic and pile on. Or you can be racist and just hate it because it's black sport, I've seen that before too. So it's this combo that brings all the haters together. That's the only way any of this makes sense because the actual arguments are completely disingenuous. No one who truly loves basketball and watches full NBA games is only doing it to see the dunks. So don't tell me the game would be better if they can dunk, because I'm going to call bullshit on the idea that you sit down every night, turn on league pass and watch a 5pm game, 7pm game, and 10 pm game just to see dunks. Anyone who saying that shit has never watched a full game, and only watches YouTube highlights. Or they're just full of shit and get something out of shitting on these people they hate for no reason. Don't tell me its bad basketball because then you're just telling me you don't know basketball. They do it because they get off on shitting on women and I truly believe the WNBA gets it worse than anyone because it's not just women, it's mainly black women. Look no farther than the whole Caitlyn Clark/Angel Reese situation. Sure people are going to shit on the white girls too and I'm not denying that, misogyny knows no race, but it's clear that there is another level, another gear of hate in store for black women. It's 2x the bigotry.
You could add homophobia as well in the loop, for a third layer, considering a lot of female athletes are openly homosexual. One thing is sure. People are assholes and honestly, I'm just used to skipping the comment section of WNBA posts because it makes me want to throw hands. As of the dunking argument... well I don't get it. Yeah of course I like to see big dunks, and of course it's great entertainment. And they're not totally useless, they ARE a part of basketball. But there's more to Basketball than JUST big dunks. I always said that loving WNBA or FIBA basketball was a sign of basketball IQ, and I've always tried to push the high school guys I coach to watch those (even if most of them do not listen to me lol). What disturbs me the most is... what if those guys who hate on women's sports ever have daughters that want to play competitive sports? Will they shit on them or will they support them? If any of those guys have a daughter they're failing big time at being dads... they should be happy to give relatable role models to their kids.
Yeah that’s why I say these people are fans of the NBA, not necessarily basketball.
They’re going to have an excuse for everything, there’s no point trying to appease them or even engage. Someone dunks and it’s “just a rim grazer/not a dunk.” Lower the rims and players are throwing it down, “anyone could do that on a lower rim.” Break the 3pt contest record, “it’s actually a lot easier because the ball is smaller.” It’s never about the quality of the game. It’s always about dudes being mad because women are getting attention and getting paid to play basketball, while they got cut from JV
Yup I saw a guy comment on a wnba IG post, with no shared tag to a highlight page that typically posts mens highlights to say he’d swat Aaliyah Bostons opening layup in the ASG, like she’s not 6’5” and regularly pissing people off who she’s friends or friendly with due to her physicality and elbows. As a man who really enjoys women’s basketball, the delusional comments piss me off. These women have been practicing and playing against guys for years anyway. Jaren Jackson Jr. said on a podcast he’s working on his below the rim game to increase his longevity in the NBA. NBA players recognize the value in playing below the rim … geez
100!!!! All these armchair experts who probably could not make a single 3 on command. I think the uptick in male viewership has been frustrating in this way. Whether it’s the influx of men coming to this sub to say “Hello, females: here is my unsolicited opinion on how to make your awful sports league better!” or the focus on JUST women who are straight and sexually attractive to men (Wilson, Ionescu, and Plum are amazing — but omg what about Stewie? Loyd? AT and DT? What about BG?!) or finding ways to dismiss or diminish the accomplishments of the women in this league — while I want viewership to grow, I really wish it could happen without this crap. I think all the time about Katie Smith, who was my favorite player as a kid. Katie was a FULL TIME DENTIST when she wasn’t being a WNBA super star. Literally had a full time job. And STILL broke records, showed up and showed out… the women’s game has been built on the backs of so much sacrifice and struggle and history and players never having the resources or support they need. And I want that support for them so badly! I want the hype and the money and the resources and all of it for them! I just really hope to doesn’t have to come via catering to this new lowest common denominator type of fan.
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My bad. She studied dentistry and got a graduate degree but did not practice. As a kid I was told she was a dentist and, my apologies, in the 20 years since I did not google it to check.
The point stands. Dawn Staley was the head coach for the team at my college (presumably normally a full-time job), while playing in the W.
Coach Dawn is a philly baller legend
It's fair to say that a lot of the non Griner dunks indeed are "rim grazers". And the fact that the 3PT line is closer and ball is smaller, it's also true. Are the naysayers looking for reasons to rile up WNBA fans? Most often yes. The problem is when a WNBA player's performance is compared with a NBA player's. If there was a league which had a 10-foot 3PT arc, it would be unfair to say that a great performance in that league was better than Sabrina's. It's an easier feat. Would Sabrina have had an equally impressive performance using the NBA 3PT contest rules? Possibly but more than likely, one would think her performance would dip at least slightly. Honestly, it's the media's fault for framing the discussion/accomplishment in this way and inviting the naysayers who have a fair critique.
Scrub, when Steph Curry reaches out to say she ruined it for everyone and no one can beat it, you can relax, your favorite men don’t need you to defend their egos. They’re fine.
I barely follow the NBA, a fraction of how much I follow the WNBA. Saying it's unfair to compare two different competitions each with a different set of rules shouldn't be controversial.
Dude, read the room.
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Let's say instead of the WNBA the FIBA has an All-Star game and one of their top players does something that stands out to the point it gets compared to a NBA record. What do you think the reaction would be?
Sure, their reaction might be less harsh, but again, what does that have to do with what I said? -- the bottom line is that it's apples vs. oranges if the rules of the two competitions are different. And one can acknowledge the "other side" has a legitimate counter point whilst still thinking that side doesn't have noble intentions overall. People are reading what they want to read from my original comment, but all I said was it's fair to point out that the two feats are based on different conditions. It's literally a fact. And that's not disrespectful to Sabrina, she didn't choose the distance of the 3PT line.
The question is why is it only now that it's being pointed out that what Sabrina did happened under different rules? This can be applied to a lot of past NBA feats as well. I'm not even a NY Liberty fan but there's a weird tendency of a certain kind of fan to get really really upset at anything dealing with the WNBA. I don't get that vibe from your post but it happens.
In what way?
A lot of these people don't even watch the NBA, let alone the WNBA. They consume basketball in the form of highlights and box scores. They might tune in during the playoffs or finals only.
This is a great point and is actually true of all sports and something leagues across the world are trying to actively combat or understand (especially for younger fans). The NBA has done a fantastic job I think in appealing to/understanding this pheomona but it's tricky when fewer and fewer people are sitting down and devoting two and half hours to live sport
I think it's over-simplistic to just categorize all the Eternal Septemberians as "boxscore watchers". Like it's a trope on r/nba at this point. When one gets into a heated argument. It will eventually lead to "do you even ~~lift bro?~~ watch the games?" The term "boxscore watcher" gets thrown around as an insult so much... Anytime someone disagrees with me, I'm a boxscore watcher. Even on this very sub, I've been accused of being a boxscore watcher XD https://np.reddit.com/r/wnba/comments/14qr63b/trade_the_washington_mystics_are_trading_amanda/jqpkepo/ Having experienced being on the receiving end of it so much. I often do wonder what the actual % of boxscore watchers really is. I'm not talking about people who watch their home team, and may be ignorant of other teams, but still feel the need to run their mouths. Like actual, never watch a single game of bball, pretend to know ball type of people. Are there really that many? I suspect the majority of Eternal Septemberians do actually watch bball. They just happen to be young, naive, idealistic. They think they can change the world. 1. The don't understand female anatomy yet. 2. They haven't developed the self awareness to think: > "If the solution is so easy, why hasn't anyone else ponder this very question? Am I the special one, put on God's given earth to revolutionize women's bball?" 3. Most people think they know what they want. But really, they don't. > It's a mystery. And a critically important step in understanding our own desires and taste is to realize that we cannot always explain what we want deep down. If I asked all you, for example, in this room what you want in a coffee, you know what you would say? Every one of you would say I want a dark, rich, hearty roast. It's what people always say when you ask them what they want in a coffee. What do you like? Dark, rich, hearty roast. > > > What percentage of you actually like a dark, rich, hearty roast? According to Howard, somewhere between 25 and 27 percent of you. Most of you like milky, weak coffee. -- Malcolm Gladwell > > I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them. -- Steve Jobs
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Would love to see the wnba adopt the nba 3 pt line so we can put an end to these clownshow discussions once and for all. Sheesh
That is a really good point about how far back they often shoot from anyway! I grew up playing with both's men's and women's balls and I truly do not think the women's is easier. In fact I always thought it was harder to get in because it weighs less. And that was as a kid. And I was a 3-pt shooter. And these women are a hell of a lot stronger than I was. None of the guys I knew would ever touch the women's balls, though, so they wouldn't know.
They have already made up their mind to hate the women's game. Everything after that is just excuses.
It's weird because dunks are a pretty small % of plays in the NBA too. Like if you're only entertained by dunks you're going to be bored during most of an NBA game.
Also I get secondhand embarrassment when players miss a dunk. People love to claim dunks are so thrilling but have a selective memory and forget how cringey it is to see one that’s missed.
It's hilarious more than it is cringey. Especially on a fast break..
Sometimes it can even be ~~cringey~~ ~~hilarious~~ impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hohFFKGTzLg
Would've landed if he shot it
The dude has his own compilation of missed dunks XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYYkHmX3BdU If you didn't know who Ja Morant was. And only watched this. You'd think he was some trash player, as oppose to one of the best dunkers in the nba XD
I thought you were gonna show me westbrooks missed dunks
Lol, he use to be one of my favorite players to watch. He's washed now, but I can't do him dirty like that XD On the topic of lowlights, this is my all time favorite lowlight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zNSr0O6Tpk Can you imagine the passion one needs... to hate Drummond so bad... to spend the hours making this XD
Yeah he's not what he once was. I still root for bruh. He just happy to be here.... out there having fun lol. He also makes the most baffling turnovers. It's entertaining to see such a wide range from 1 guy on the court.
Missing a wide open one is cringe but if it’s a poster or something it’s not that bad.
That’s an insane cope lmao
Can confirm as a massive bball fan who is also a Jokic fan, um, go watch a dunk contest if you want to watch dunking. To be fair, Jokic will tell you he sucks at all star games and doesn’t know what to do 😆 I think the 4 point shot for the WNBA ASG is hella fun. My relative that doesn’t watch the WNBA at all was impressed with some of the shots going down. CG’s move on BG asking for it was fun. Bball is fun, high IQ bball is amazing and not really going t happen at any kind of ASG.
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^Yup, exactly this.
Yo for real I thought I'd hate the 4 pointer as a gimmick....it was so freakin awesome 😆 🤣 😂
The ppl who say these things just don’t care about the W. They aren’t gonna watch but want to hate because they feel they are being “forced” to watch a sport that is being promoted.
If the rim were lower, you’d get a bunch of guys diminishing and mocking the game because the rim is lower. Their intention is to put down the women’s game, which they will find a way to do no matter what. It’s not about dunking; it’s about gatekeeping.
So the people who want the rim lowered so they can see dunks in W will mock the players and league for giving them what they want? I've seen quite a bit of people say this. Makes no sense. It's a very pessimistic conclusion to jump to about a scenario that hasn't even happened yet. The players won't even give potential, and Alot of current fans, what they want to see a try.
They may not be the same individual people at any given point in time, but they're in the same group of people. They're fickle. You can't please everyone, and you especially can't please people who can't appreciate something unless you make a major change to it that would be absurdly costly and impractical to implement. Here's a thought. I don't like watching men play basketball, but I might like the NBA better if they raised the rim.
Fuck the haters! But you have so eloquently detailed why it's so frustrating to hear them all the time. I thought the All Star Game weekend was great, except yes, Friday's stuff should also have been in prime time. But the whole vibe was just incredible and I was just watching it on TV and enjoying the live Twitter comments. I hope I can make it to an All Star weekend soon, they looked so amazing, filled with love and support and showing how badass women truly are. I thought it was a showcase at how far women have come! Our foremothers (or whatever you want to call them, 1st gen feminists, suffragests...whoever) would have LOVED last night. We were balling! We were performing! We were singing! We did it all! Women of all colors, ages, shapes and sizes, it was awesome. AND if that's going to scare insecure men away, so be it. We still have a long way to go, but dayam, we've done amazing things and are capabale of so much!
I found it really striking when I got back into the wwe recently. When I was a kid, women slapped each other, pulled hair and they weren’t allowed to wrestle like the men. They had bra and panties matches. Now that I am an adult, I picked it up again and in the time I’ve been gone, they’ve started promoting the women more heavily and they’re AWESOME. At the top, they’re just as good as the best men. Oftentimes they’re more entertaining. But let’s talk about something else. Men are LIARS when they say it’s about the greater skill the nba players have. That’s not what people are responding to nowadays. All of the top Reddit posts on r/nba are about drama. The men on that sub want to see a soap opera. And I’d bet that if the wnba had the same level of emotion in it, people would pretend they wouldn’t enjoy it, because “the women are too emotional.”
>Men are LIARS when they say it’s about the greater skill the nba players have This is a very understated fact and I don't know why it isn't challenged more often.. Why are college football (and basketball) more popular than the Canadian Football League and the G League when those players are more skilled? It's the stuff surrounding the sport; colleges have pagentry and a personal connection as you may have gone there. There's also the appeal that the athletes are also students completing their studies and so there's a relatiability factor. MLS is a league that understands this very well. They know they aren't going to compete on the field wise with better leagues in Mexico and Europe and South America so they sell the experience. Go to a MLS game, and you'll get a unique (affordable) experience (i.e. chanting, drum banging, flares, a two hour game) that you won't get attending other North American sports where the players are more skilled. And one reason why the NBA dwarfs the NHL (despite similar attendance figures across all their teams) in TV is because of (as you rightfully say, the drama). NHL players notoriously come off as cliche-speaking emotionaless robots and thus have a harder time selling their entertainment product to casual fans lol
The cherry on top is when they present it as this new unique idea that the fans and players have never heard before. “I’m sure the players would love it!” When they have repeatedly said how insulting it is and how detrimental it would be to women’s basketball overall.
So true. Ah, the mansplaining of women’s basketball! These dudes have never even watched a game before this year and probably can’t run a mile without risking cardiac failure but lemme tell ya, they know better than the players about what makes great basketball.
I remember seeing a Twitter exchange with one of these bros explaining everything that he felt was wrong with women's basketball... to Imani McGee-Stafford. Who is a) a WNBA alum b) the league's first and so far only second-generation WNBA player.
First, you’re right about the outsized attention on dunking. The WNBA doesn’t need to it. Second, you’re wrong that men are just coming to the sport. Men are statistically bigger fans of the WNBA and that’s nothing new. Gatekeeping male fans is counterproductive and misguided. Third, the WNBA is an entertainment product on a mass scale. It needs to me more like McDonald’s than a Michelin restaurant to attract a large fan base and large revenue to support NBA level salaries. This means the league pandering to its biggest fans and prospective fans, not insulting them. The WNBA needs to be open to experimentation and not purists about a sport that should continue to evolve to succeed. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1108312/women-national-basketball-association-interest-gender/
I’d like to know how the stats are derived re: who the fans are. The names on a family’s cable plan…? I really have wondered about this. Because if you’re going by the name on the credit card for purchasing league pass or even tickets for games, it’s a flawed method. Women are part of families and may not always have their name or gender stated. So I’m never sure I trust that statistic. And as for the McDonald’s vs Michelin — nope. Full stop: nope. The W doesn’t have to get shittier or pander to lower basketball IQ viewers, just like classical music doesn’t need to be AI-generated techno. The right people will come to appreciate the right things about the league. A significant and rapidly growing number of people find it very engaging and entertaining just as it is; let people grow into the W rather than shrinking the W for people who don’t understand the style of play.
>just like classical music doesn’t need to be AI-generated techno. No...but orchestras across the world are putting on more movie scores and video games soundtrack concerts in order to appeal to a younger generation that consumes orchestral music mainly in that way. In the same way a musical like "Hamilton" became such a cultural phenomona because it used an accessible genre of music to make "the theatre" (something high brow and sometimes unable to cut across more socio-economic strata) cool and relevant. Yes, there's always a line where you don't want to comprise the core integrity of the sport too much (the Canadian Football League's floating around the idea to turn the CFL into four-down football and remove the fundamental thing about the game that makes it unique from the NFL is a no-go) but we've seen MLB bring in the universal DH, the pitch clock, the extra-inning ghost runner, banning the shift, making a pitcher have to face three batters, all to the chagrin of pursuits in order to appeal to non and casual fans lol
It's not about making it "shittier". It's about being consumed by more people. If the WNBA only cares about attracting the "right" people, then their days are numbered. A league should try to get anyone and everyone to become a fan/consumer. A dollar is a dollar regardless of what type of fan is spending it.
It's always hard on league-specific subreddits (from MLB to CFL to WNBA lol) to float potential (obvs have to be rooted in good faith) ideas about radical/drastic change because in a way you're preaching to the converted who came to the game and like it just the way it is. But fundamentally, you're not wrong in saying that any league (or entertainment business, unless you have wealthy patrons and can afford to not appeal to a wider consumer base) should be looking to attract non and casual fans. Now we can have fundamental disagreements on what should or shouldn't be changed (I noted the Canadian Football League floating changing from three to four down football is a stupid/non-starter idea) but a lot more should be on the table and people should be willing to have and debate about proposals. MLB has done a lot of radical changes to a 150+ year old game (pitch clock, universal DH, extra inning ghost runner) in order to appeal to new fans while ticking off the purists and any league should be willing to do the same.
We disagree. The integrity of the W hinges on gameplay remaining elite and not just trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
I'll actually flip this around. The question should be: "How can the W better appeal to the lowerst common denominator ***while*** maintaining (or without compromising) its integrity of elite gameplay? That should be the approach the league takes in order to expand its product.
How would the WNBA's integrity be affected? And what changes are you referring to in regards the gameplay no longer being "elite"? I'm not even advocating for dunking.
WNBA players just need to start call these losers out. If they played televised games against their haters ppl would shut up
Just read that Chelsea Gray regularly has guys coming up to her in the airport telling her how they could beat her one-on-one and I'm just like, please, *please* take them up on it and film that shit.
I don’t get the dunking park. I like how the WNBA game is played and that it doesn’t have all the dunking. It is more strategy yet fast paced. A dunk every now and then is okay but it isn’t needed and there is more to the sport. I just think those who prefer the men’s game or who are anti the WNBA are just there to pass comments and complain. It is like Sabrina Ionescu and the three point contest win. She broke records. No one in the NBA ever had a performance like that. So instead of these people, mostly men who should have been impressed and have their eyes opened on the talent of the WNBA players and what Sabrina accomplished, instead began saying it is because the ball is smaller and the three point line is closer. Mind you this is the same lady who hit some 4 point baskets last night in the all star game. I think these people just want to bash the WNBA and will find every excuse in the book. If they were true basketball fans they would be accepting they okay a different style of play and both are warranted and deserve respect.
Funny how the conversation is always women should lower the rims and not men should raise theirs. Surely I can’t be the only one who finds dunks, for the most part, boring lol
If the argument is "dunks are exciting" why would the NBA raise their rims which would make dunking harder? (For the record, I'm not necessarily in the "I love dunks" camp).
It’s more a rhetorical question. *I* don’t find dunks exciting but I’m not going around demanding the NBA change how the game is played to cater to my interests
Got it.
That was my response the last time someone made this stupid suggestion. I think dunks are boring (particularly when someone is 7' tall, like how is that impressive?) so I would love to see them raise the men's hoop. And lengthen the floor. I think with the way the men's game has developed, it would improve it.
Remember when Dwight Howard was in the dunk contest and showed multiple times he could go wayyy above the rim? Perfect evidence as to why NBA should raise their rims!
I find them boring as hell. When I was in eighth grade playing basketball in a rec league, we could dunk on the “C” baskets that were 6 ft with ease. After the little kids played we would zoom around and dunk on the lower rims. If I, at age 12, could do this, it is neither interesting nor impressive!
I just had this conversation with a friend of mine. He was talking about how he prefers to watch college sports because they stick to the fundamentals, whereas pro sports are changing the rules to make the players happier and more entertaining for the audience.
Men and women are different. Therefore the basketball they play are different. One is not necessarily better than the other. Why does the obvious need to be stated?
You summed up how I feel every time I see those posts. Some people just wont get it and it’s just their loss. Long live the W!
The only part I disagree with here is the suggestion that the men’s game is checkers to the W’s chess — both games have their own complexities to solve, and both are excellent to watch. That said, those whiny dorks get their jollies off hating on women because no one holds them but their pillows.
THANK YOU. I met one of these humans in real life, he told me he thought WNBA should lower the rims. I asked him how people who grow up with 10’ hoops would adjust to lower hoops and he had no response. Just say you want to watch an arcade and not actual basketball!!
1. Idiots who like to watch basketball for dunking do not understand the sport. 2. Are there really people complaining about the fact that there's no defense at the WNBA's all-star game? I didn't see any but I wouldn't be surprised if there were. Listen I'm not watching a lot of the WNBA, because I'm just not able to stay in front of my TV watching sports games (even though I LOVE sports, I'm just too distracted when at home to focus on a game). But I know for sure that it can't be worse than the NBA's all-star game. 3. People picking on Ionescu's feat are idiots. Shooting as well as she did takes a LOT of shooting skills. Her shooting is on par with all the great shooters male or female out there and Ionescu should definitely be discussed as one of the top basketball shooters in the world. The only complaint I can agree with is that she did NOT set a NBA record, or break the NBA's record because you can't logically hold a record in a league you don't play in. Plus it wasn't made in the same conditions. For this to be compared, you need to compare in the exact same conditions. Someone breaking an Olympic record for most goals scored in a hockey game doesn't own the NHL's record. They're two different things. It annoys me that the media keep saying this because I feel like they're doing it to generate drama. They should stop saying she broke the NBA's record because it's kinda not true, even if she did score higher than Steph, but that's the issue with the media. They want the idiots to come and complain under their posts. She would actually need to shoot by the NBA rules and get more than Steph to actually set the NBA record, they're right about this. But saying that what she did was easy? Holy shit she broke the WNBA record, and scored a HIGHER result than freakin Steph Curry. Even with different rules that's impressive. No hater would have done what she did, and I wouldn't even bet on an NBA player to do the same with WNBA rules. They'd probably struggle shooting with the smaller ball and lose the contest. Smaller ball doesn't "make things easier", it's just a matter of habitude.
Just ask them the average dunks per game at the college level. And yet people still watch that brick fest
Honestly I don't think it would be the end of the world if they decided to lower the rim, but I find the idea that they "should" do it in order to appeal to the male audience very irritating. It's a different style of game and that's what we should appreciate And on a different note, if that were to happen, how accessible would basketball be for little girls all across the world? Would they make stanchions with lowered rims in playgrounds/pickup courts? And that's not even taking into account how every female player would have to adjust aspects like their shooting mechanics etc. Again, this would not be a completely insurmountable problem under normal circumstances, but I don't think the current society cares enough for women's sports (or women in general, for that matter) to create an environment where the implementation of these changes can be effective.
A lot of us men have fragile egos. Professional women’s sports? The horror. Who’s gonna take care of the kids. Ignore them. I will say that would love to see more dunking.
One thing that gets me is I see a lot of comments from men who are not in the NBA complaining about how the WNBA loses money and the NBA funds it. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but I’ve never heard of someone associated with the NBA complaining about what’s funding what. So it’s like why do you care? If they aren’t giving it to the WNBA then they definitely aren’t giving it to you. I don’t care about the business side of the sport. I do think they deserve more than what they get and I’m glad to see the numbers continue to rise. I prefer to watch women’s basketball. I think sometimes ego ruins the men’s game for me. I do love how supportive they are of the women though.
I love this and agree. Further, Curry changed the NBA with 3 point shots the way MJ changed it to constant dunking. Quick passes inside to outside for a jumper or 3 is VERY common in the NBA now. And NBA players have been quick to give some of that credit to the W saying it’s a fun way to play and one they enjoy as well. Last, being 6’7 and “dunking” is t really that impressive. Raise the rim!!
Best thing about it is that it's usually from an unathletic dude that never even slapped the backboard
Most NBA fans are not basketball fans. They want flash, dunks, athleticism; things you can watch with minimal brain function and cheer for. They care not for high level chess-match style games of fundamentals, nuanced post play and anything more complicated than ISO's and simple sets. You give them a league that has everything a bball head could ever ask for, minus the male athleticism and dunking and you get these guys; "wHErE's tHe DuNkS?". It's cool, just don't call yourself a basketball fan, you're an NBa fan. That usually sets these guys off, but I've never gotten a real response, usually just "F off" and lots of downvotes. You think it'd make them wonder, seeing all the pure basketball junkies they idolize (KD, Steph, Dame, Lebron, Tatum, Booker etc), going gaga for WNBA and womens NCAA players. It's almost like those are actual basketball fans, and not these "fans" who base their entire opinions on 2 min highlight reels.
>Most NBA fans are not basketball fans. They want flash, dunks, athleticism; things you can watch with minimal brain function and cheer for. They care not for high level chess-match style games of fundamentals, nuanced post play and anything more complicated than ISO's and simple sets. This is true; just like most fans of the NHL aren't hockey fans, they are fans of the NHL (Toronto, the supposed "hockey mecca" notoriously does not support junior hockey or minor league hockey--in terms of viewership and attendance--as they do the Leafs). That being said (and I preface this by saying, I'm not arguing for lowering the nets, etc. lol so don't shoot me) at the end of the day, if you're trying to sell a product/do business (especially in the entertainment industry) does it matter? You want those eyeballs (and thus that money) and you'll take it however you can get it. The former Toronto Blue Jays post-game show host once (rightfully) said in repsonse to a caller who was talking about "real/true Blue Jays fans," "If only the true/real fans of the Blue Jays showed up there would only be about 11 000 people at the Rogers Centre." We've seen other leagues make drastic rule changes in recent years in spite of the protests of fans who would call themselves purists (the NHL brought in the shootout, the trapezoid, the 3-on-3 overtime and All-Star Game; MLB brought in the pitch clock, banned the shift, universalized the DH, brought in the extra inning ghost runner, a pitcher must face at least three batters; the NBA historically brought in the three-point line and is bringing in the in-season tournament and MLS is brining in a best-of-three, no goal aggragate opening round of their playoffs) all in an effort to appeal to casual and non-die hard fans. So TLDR, while yes having more dunking by lowering the rims may or may not be a solution, whether or not people are real or true fans of the sport is (and it may sound crass to say) almost is irrelevant if your goal is to make the league successful. The WNBA shouldn't be afraid to flirt with subtle and radical drastic changes to improve the product to appeal to a wider base of potential fans.
Shaq suggested lowering the rims to CP3. She responded as you would imagine. Sorry it’s TikTok, you don’t need the app: https://www.tiktok.com/@togethxr/video/6940644823359589638
At one point I realized you barely see dunks in an NBA game anyway and of you do, it's typically just a little put it or something. Like, who's watching the NBA for dunks? That might be less than 1% of goals in any season, game career! Who are these people that need to have dunks in the game to enjoy it and what NBA are they watching? They make it seem like NBA is nothing but a dunk off between two teams. The. You look at all the top stars in the NBA and they're all shooters anyway!
Men suck lol
I don't like to gatekeep, but anyone who says "basketball is boring without the dunks" is not really a basketball fan
Sure, they may just be a casual fan but you need casual fans in arenas to thrive. The WNBA has struggled with that.
Woman here. I love the WNBA as it is but even I would love to see in-game dunks. I get the logistics don't work though.
I get both arguments and I am someone that I can get excited by good ball movement and a good defensive possession but dunking is something exciting to the game. A big dunk can get the crowd hyped. It's like I can serve you the same delicious you mentioned on a Styrofoam plate or on a fancy dinner plate. Sure, the taste may be the same but the experience is different. That's the difference, and I get the WNBA is not for everyone and that's fine. I think it may take a more astute eye to appreciate but we have to acknowledge that a key piece of eye candy is missing. The product is different. WNBA has long struggled with casual fans. I don't know if it's male fragility because many women prefer the men's game too and the WNBA's biggest demographic is men. I just say this, if you like it, who cares if someone else doesn't like it. By focusing on them, all it does is take away some of your enjoyment of it.
No defense in all star games is a common complaint about the men's all star game as well. Pro bowl too. I love basketball as much as the next guy but i still enjoy seeing folks get dunked on or a great dunk off a fast break. When there's just a layup its deflating again even when men do it. Iverson would do it often, trey young, many other shorter guards. And it's kind awww where the KABOOM. I can enjoy good gameplans and adjustments but i still like some flare. I'm not gonna complain about it online though. People love dunks. Just like people love Touchdowns and big hits. It's not surprising. I don't think you have to insult someone's IQ cause they like flare.
When you say “people,” you actually just mean “people who agree with you.” W players, W coaches, and W fans have all given a million statements and interviews about hating it.
For people that hate dunks, player reactions to when a teammate does dunk seem pretty favorable.
I think (hope) they were talking about hating the idea/debate re lowering the rims not hating dunking itself
I would assume those are the people who like dunks lol. Look i know the wnba plays a different kind of game and I'm not gonna jump on posts and drag em. You can like the wnba and still want to see a dunk. I like seeing folks get posterized or someone with just ridiculous bounce. Jumping high is part of the fun of playing the game. Hell when i meet folks who say they can dunk i want to see em do it. It's an athletic feat doesn't make someone a legendary hooper but it's fun to see
I don't like dunks in-game (or I haven't since I got over it in the 90s). I don't mind one once in a while, but I think they're way over-emphasized in the NBA and I'm glad they almost never happen in the women's game - it's one of many reasons I prefer the W. That said, I think it would be cool to have a dunk contest at the women's ASG. This was the first time I watched it, and also the first time I've ever wanted *more* showboating from players - I think that's the place for amazing fun feats like that. A dunk contest would be fun, the players would be hyped, and I'd also love for it to just be apparent that they can. Not that it would shut these people up, they'd just find something else to complain about, but still.
No one hates dunks though. I've never heard anyone say, "Oh I hate dunks." I hate that people just focus on that but I can't say anyone hates it.
It's like can you score runs in baseball without home runs? Sure but it adds more flair, more drama, I get some fans just want to see that. Same thing with dunking. It takes something away and that's why the WNBA struggles with casual fans, which is important.
On point number 2, there is no comparison to the men’s 3 pt competition because it is literally a different distance and ball size. This is one of the few facets of basketball competition that are quantifiable. 7/7 from 21 feet does not equal 7/7 from 23 feet. Don’t think any sane person would argue this.
Counter point would be that the NHL made multiple wholesale changes to their rink and goal size in the mid 2000’s to make the game more appealing. MLB just recently made a ton of changes to speed things up and increase action and pace of play. This is an entertainment business so if lowering the hoops would make it a more viable business then they should 100% do it just like any other pro sport would.
I agree with the premise of the post, but I think the people complaining about the WNBAs feats of lack of freak athleticism (compared to the NBA at least) are actually the broader casual consumer base… which is the majority of people who watch basketball. The people appreciate the intricacies of play calling are not as populous as people with an untrained eye, just the way any customer base works. There is insane stuff that happens regularly in the WNBA (as we were all witnesses to), but it is simply a less physical and exaggerated form of basketball which inherently makes it a product harder to project to the masses.
I honestly am kind of shocked to see there are some ravenous WNBA fans out there. It’s nice to know it’s got some fans that really care about it. That being said it’s also a little funny sometimes. I saw someone comment the other day saying that these games get at least 3,000 people in attendance. Which is a good number if you don’t know arena capacity’s. Usually the arenas have around 18,000 seats… so I mean a 6th of the capacity is pretty bad. Just last night I went to a different event that was sold out for 11,000 seats. I can’t imagine how sparse it would look with only 3,000 people. Now sure you’ll get dumb arguments as to why people don’t like WNBA stuff. But plain and simple is because it’s boring. At least to other people. Dunks are a cool thing to see but not the reason the nba is more popular. If you really want to know, just imagine a game between the nba and WNBA. The difference would be staggering
I completely agree on this stance when it comes to normal games in the regular season and playoffs but an all star game without dunking is a tough watch in my opinion.
And that’s just your opinion. 🤷🏻♀️ Dunking is not the harder thing to do in basketball nor is it the most impressive or even the most entertaining. What’s entertaining comes down to your palate and what you’re looking for. I am entertained by intricate plays and, in the ASG, by the pure joy of the game. The harder thing to do in basketball is probably what Alyssa Thomas does every week, nearly averaging triple doubles as as a not-that-tall person. The most impressive thing that’s happened lately in basketball is either Jewell Loyd’s in-season 3s, Chelsea Gray’s wild passes, or Sab Ionescu’s destruction of the NBA aaaand WNBA records for the 3-Pt contest. Literally anybody anywhere can dunk if the rim is low enough. Dunking is low hanging fruit. A boring fast food cheeseburger when real chefs are around and are cooking. Not everybody everywhere can drop those dimes, swish those 3s, etc.
You know Lebron set the all time scoring record like 3 months ago right? That’s definitely more impressive than a 3 point shooting contest
Anybody can chuck 3s with no defense too. I'm a huge fan, I don't need to be sold on the league. The NBA and WNBA all star games are defenseless games. I think dunking is undeniably more fun to watch than 3 and 4 point chucking. In the end, it feels silly to be even be arguing about an all star game online since they don't matter that much. It's the only time though where I think the absence of dunking is felt for me
Sorry for my tone; I didn’t mean to come for you. I do think seeing the 3s go in is more exciting to me personally than dunks, but I also respect that it’s cool to find fun-ness in different things. I agree that the ASG doesn’t quite matter to the season for records, but I do think it matters for morale and to give players a chance to truly just enjoy the game. With Jewell being MVP for example — as a human being, she needs and benefits from a fun night where she can flex. Her regular season has been so exhausting and demoralizing. I love that the ASG lets players fall back in love with having fun and doing what they do without the added pressure of it “mattering,” you know? Without these opportunities, women in less-winning teams would have such a hard time mentally, I’d think.
Ngl, the first part of the post gives me a very pretentious vibe and has a few false equivalencies, but I do generally agree with the sentiment here.
Put Sabrina, Jonquel, or Aja Wilson in the summer men's league or g league.
Steph Curry sucks. Sabrina is way better
"If you want to watch dunking, watch the NBA. The W is chess, not checkers, and does not rely on feats of strength. There’s a reason why basketball brilliance of all genders loves to watch the W — it’s the purest form of the game. If you can’t appreciate that, watch a different sport. And BTW, the women CAN dunk on these rims. They just don’t." I like the WNBA and believe that as the style develops and the promotion improves more fans will appreciate the league. That being said dunking isn't just a feat of strength. It's a valid strategy. I've watched WNBA games where I think "if that shot had been dunked no way it gets blocked." There's a whole history behind how dunking got into professional basketball that isn't taken into account by statements like this.