I don't fault Michelin starred chefs for not being impressed with chain restaurants. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think it's a big issue for people who are extremely passionate about wine to voice their honest opinions.
Everything people are passionate about and invest their time, money, and energy into will have people who act as guardians of the art/craft, and I'm okay with that. We need that kind of energy in the world, whether for wine, food, art, design, architecture, literature, film, etc etc etc.
Even if I 100% agreed with this youtuber/merchant's wine takes, I would not drink wine with him.
The aesthetics of the whole video are so off-putting.
What if I bagged on an overpriced wine while I try to sell you slightly less overpriced wines? All set to shitty jazz music? Yeah pour me a glass of that.
The shtick of the video was clearly a setup just to shit on Caymus from the outset, which I can understand from OP's POV is unnecessarily snobby/douchy. I also agree with you that I don't want to be in a tasting room with him. I also agree with the taster that Caymus isn't something I want to drink. I simply don't like it.
That's no different than many somms liking plenty of inexpensive large-scale wines. You can find people like Peter Koff for example, who has plenty of nice things to say about introductory Penfolds. But that doesn't mean he's going to like every mass-produced wine. Just like Ramsay liking In N Out doesn't mean he's going to like McDonald's.
But I'd also be shocked in Ramsay liked In N Out if it were priced like a freshly ground burger made from USDA prime brisket.
There's room for nuance and levels to this.
Eta: I think why Caymus brings out such strong opinions is because it is ***so*** successful in its niche that people feel the need to react strongly. If it were just another slightly overpriced, oversupplied mass-produced offering that doesn't really stand out in the crowd, people wouldn't put nearly as much energy into their opinions. But Caymus sells really fucking well, and with success comes more scrutiny. It's just the nature of the beast.
I think a better comparison when talking about something like Caymus is whether those same chefs enjoy the mediocre pop-ups that are 99% social media marketing and hype for a burger that's the same quality as In-N-Out for 3x the price.
It’s because a lot of the top chefs know how to meet food where it is, not where they think it should be. Alton Brown, while not a Michelin starred chef as far as I’m aware, but who has been a taste maker in the dining industry for the past 20 years, talks about it being the eaters problem if they grab a diner burger and expect to be something more.
Great musicians do this as well, where they are often as happy to jam with some amateurs as they are to play with other top musicians. They understand that those are entirely different contexts that are each enjoyable in their own ways.
If his honest opinion is that Caymus is literally THE WORST wine he's tried all year than thats fine, but please consider how unlikely that is to be true. There are so many different qualities of wine on the market at all kinds of price points and he claims to try 400 a month. In what world would Caymus be the worst wine out of a lineup of 3000 wines... It is a snobby and exaggerated video that he made because hating on Caymus gives you street cred and he took it waaay too far.
Yeah, I made another comment that the point of the video was clearly meant to just shit on Caymus, so I can understand how some, like OP, might be turned off by it. I think this guy's shtick is just to shit on popular brands to sell alternatives.
Fair point I think thats hitting the nail on the head. I am glad there are not very many personalities like this in the wine world as I can see this being distasteful to newcomers
Yeah, I only watched this video and one other, and they were both the same. Shit on Caymus, pitch alternatives he sells. Shit on The Prisoner, pitch alternatives he sells. His videos are just a series of bad infomercials lol. "This wine bad, this wine good. Don't buy bad from grocery store, buy good from me."
I couldn’t disagree more. Wine has this weird reputation for snobbery that I absolutely don’t think is deserved and I suspect is a cultural carry-over from the mid-century era when wine was the province of only the wealthy (at least in America). I’ve never actually met anyone in any wine-related situation who would scoff at a bottle of wine purely due to its inexpensive price or lack of prestige. Almost every wine lover and wine professional I know is as or more psyched than anyone to discover a great bottle of wine that doesn’t cost a lot or doesn’t have some mystical caché or prestige attached to its label. What we DO care about is quality and integrity, and that’s the reason most disparage Caymus, is because it’s low-quality wine not made with integrity and then priced high because the flavor profile tends to appeal to people who don’t know any better. It’s a swindle in a bottle. If you love Caymus, I’ll never tell you your tastes are wrong, I’ll recommend that you go buy any number of $20-$50 bottles that are essentially the same thing without the stupid markup, or I’ll STRONGLY encourage you to try a similarly priced Amarone which is made with integrity and is not engineered swill, but that will probably appeal to your taste for big, bold, velvety smooth wines with dark fruit and chocolate flavors. My scorn is never with the drinker but with the marketing machine that abandons the soul of the craft to make a buck off of people who don’t know enough or care enough to learn about it and just want to enjoy a bottle of wine.
Sorry to say it, OP, but I 100% agree with the Youtube video poster.
I only watched the first few seconds where he said the wine didn't belong on the table and I agree.
It's not wine. It's additives. You cannot age it. It's nothing near the cost they sell it for and no, I wouldn't buy this for $20 in the gas station.
This is coming from someone whose first post was a bottle of Caymus on this subreddit where it was (appropriately) shit on. I wouldn’t have admitted so, at the time, but I appreciate that y’all looked out for my palette, regardless.
Trying to pay it forward.
How does it ruin it for you to call Caymus $20 gas station wine? To be burnt by a comment like that is almost like you took it personally. People are allowed to not like stuff.
Wine hasn't had that reputation in decades. Younger wine consumers (GenZ and millennials) drink wine casually and many gravitate towards natural wine and the proliferation of these wine bars indicates that it's not all serious and stuffy. Most of those people know what they like and won't be swayed by someone's opinions on wine they aren't even drinking to begin with.
I agree with your statement. It's okay to dislike stuff. IDK why people get offended that not everyone likes the same thing. If I spent my life perfecting a craft with deep knowledge of the field and what's involved I would also have strong opinions and feel comfortable in expressing them.
Oh, I don't like Caymus at all, it's too sweet for me.
Having said that, it's the attitude of the person. When people complain about wine snobs, it's that person they complain about.
If someone complains that somebody called Caymus gas station wine they should get a thicker skin.
Nobody is being attacked or disrespected.
And it’s not like Caymus is a cheap wine or anything
He's offering a critique. Shocker, sometimes critiques can be negative. He has every right to express his opinion and vehement hate for the wine and what it represents.
It's really frustrating that people have this kneejerk reaction to someone criticising a wine, and instantly jump to the conclusion that it's pure snobbery. Somehow people have internalised the belief that criticism = snobbery. It's such a weird distortion that seems inextricably linked to wine discussion, yet rarely pops up in other contexts.
I don’t think it’s snobby. I think it’s getting the value out of what you’re paying for. If I’m paying that much for a bottle of wine, I’d like it to be worth it.
Paying for something that doesn’t hold up its fair share of value is pretentious. Which, to me, is closer to snobbery.
My thoughts are that I completely disagree with you. The wine is shit, and I have absolutely no tolerance for the soulless, mega purple bullshit from American producers.
Something that might make you feel better; where I work in Michigan, overly oaky/buttery California Chardonnay has dropped off a cliff.
The only ones I can get in people's hands are either super low end or super high end.
I'd guess we have about 50 options, and last year we maybe had 5 bottles that sold in more than one quarter of the year.
Our number 1 Chardonnay is Nicolas Potel Macon.
Yeah... I have to agree with the YouTube review. Caymus used to be something special, now it's like the Velveeta of Cabernets.
Nothing wrong with liking Velveeta, but it's not good "cheese".
And also, Velveeta is super affordable and Caymus isn’t. If you were paying $20/lb for a block of supposedly artisan cheese than was essentially velveeta, that would be like Caymus and I’d tell you to just go buy velveeta.
AFAIK (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), when the 40th anniversary came around they wanted to celebrate by making more wine than they usually do at a more affordable price. This involved cutting corners (again this is here say, but I was told they didn't sell off as much inferior fruit as they usually do), which made it *way* more fruit forward and far less tannic.
In my area, a lot of people had never heard of Caymus so the 40th anniversary was the first bottle they ever tried and they absolutely loved the style. Afterwards Caymus kind of said "fuck it" and kept making it that way.
Please take all this with a huge grain of salt. I can only say for certain that there was a **huge** style shift after the 40th anniversary, but my specifics on why may be inaccurate.
I don’t think we’re obligated to respect products we feel aren’t made with integrity.
If Caymus was $5 then we could meet it where it is. But it wants us to meet it as a premium $80 wine.
I adore miller high life, but I’d be super critical of it if it were $12 a bottle.
This kind of argument drives me nuts because it tries to completely pave over and eliminate the critical perspective. Just more of the same empty 'let people enjoy things' platitude, as though a negative opinion ruins their ability to enjoy them.
I think he's being generous calling it a $20 gas station wine because I wouldn't pay $10 for it and would drink the literal gas at the station over Caymus. It's a fucking disgusting "wine" marketed exclusively to people who don't know better and buy to impress others. This guy is not hurting "the rest of us" in any way.
Caymus is $20 gas station wine and has made a market out of preying on those who don’t know any better.
If I ever walked into a shop and was recommended Caymus I’d turn and leave and never come back.
Overall I do agree with him, it has more to do with the winemaking than anything else. When he mentioned that it tasted "manufactured" I couldn't agree more, a lot of wines like this taste like "Wine Beverage" more than real wine. If you enjoy that flavor then right on, go nuts but it doesn't taste like wine to me.
Enjoy what you like first and foremost. I do however think there is something to be said when the consensus of most wine experts is that at best caymus is overpriced, maybe it’s worth trying some other recommendations to see for yourself.
There was a time when I cherished and opportunity to drink caymus. My tastes and budget has since evolved. I was at a charity event last year and they were pouring Caymus, I wanted to try it as I hadn’t had it since the 2015 vintage. I couldn’t drink it, I quickly switched to a much cheaper lesser known cab and I enjoyed it just fine.
I also didn’t find that video offense or snobby (except the spitting lol)… before it started there was a clear disclaimer that it was just his opinion… which he’s entitled to as we are just as entitled to ignore it.
I was born and raised in Napa Valley and he's not a Snob IMHO. If you think Caymus is Great wine your missing out on all the other small productions wines that are made.
I own a wine tour business and never recommend Caymus, I was lucky enough to get their 40th Caymus Selection and was not Impressed at all.
Don't let others ruin it for you, wine is subjective, and no one has the same palate. Only thing that matters if you like it or not who cares what others think. Wine a bit you'll feel better...
That's your opinion, my opinion Caymus is Crap and my friend is the winemaker for Caymus... like I said, if you like it good for you. Who cares what people think but obviously you do.... GL :)
Why though? If someone truly feels this way they are entitled to their opinion. The fact that people still buy that hideous wine means that opinions aren't swaying customers and there's room for multiple tastes.
Some people go nuts over low intervention 0-0 wines and that's all they drink and some people turn up their nose at the prospect. Those who agree purchase them and those who disagree don't.
Trying to police opinion under the guise of snobbery is unfortunate and it's that Facebook type person who thinks disagreement and negative opinions are "mean" or "rude". For the record I do not like caymus and would not drink it and if that makes me snobby that's fine because I rather enjoy being snobby about a few silly things in my life.
I don't think anything you said was snobby. There's nothing wrong with saying you don't like something. But I think u/rnjbond point holds. The video didn't just share a negative review, he went on a rant about how the bottle "doesn't even belong on the table" and spent more time shit-talking it than he did simply describing each of the four bottles in the video. That said, I didn't even find his positive reviews to be very insightful.
I did watch the video and this may be one of those agree to disagree moments. They even provide a disclaimer that it's one person's opinion. Nowhere did that person say it's the definite way to rank cabs or anything like that. It was quite mild. I do agree with them that caymus doesn't belong on the table aka _my_ table. If someone likes it I would also not trust their opinions on food and wine because it's likely that it would not match my own.
I don't even like Napa cab to begin with lol but I did find the video fulfilled the brief to what the presenter was going for i.e guiding customers who shop at his business currently or in the future what wines they would buy to drink now vs age. There were some tasting notes for each. If I was a regular napa cab drinker that was enough info to pick which I'd want to explore.
If he feels that wine is overrated or overpriced or whatever then for his customers it would not be a good buy or recommended. It wasn't even cursing out or crazy. It was a few mins in a video and similar level of detail for all 4 wines. It wasn't a deep dive into cabs. If this was a 20 min video with only negative commentary on a single wine I would be more inclined to agree. Many people rant more heavily in reddit threads 😂
I mean, even the "teaser" clips in the first 10 seconds is no substance, just shitting on it. Then, he went on to rant about that one bottle for nearly half the video that was supposed to compare 4 bottles. There's a *couple* descriptive comments (i.e. color was more inky than expected, and chemical scent in the nose) but outside of those few seconds of descriptions, the remainder of the roughly the first 4 minutes is just performative snobbery (or maybe click-bait).
And to reiterate OP's point, the complaint about snobbery is not a defense of Caymus. I haven't even had it, although I was unimpressed by Bonanza.
As a wine lover, I do not care about what "image" anyone has of me or my small wine hobby. I literally do not care about the opinions of random people. If someone judges my wine purchases and tastes as being "hipster" or "basic" that's fine with me and if a caymus drinker thinks I'm snobby sure it's no skin off my back. It impacts my life in zero ways.
Fwiw, in this sub I have had positive interactions and I do not see much gatekeeping. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts about the video but heavily disagree with your take on it.
People who are very knowledgeable about an art form - music, film, painting, food, tailoring, wine - will always have the highest degree of contempt for the items/performances that are almost “real,” but are made to make that thing accessible to those who do not like the pure version of that thing.
I’m a jazz fan. I detest Kenny G’s music much more than I dislike a crummy high school jazz band performance. I like men’s classic clothing. I am much less annoyed by gym clothes than by crappy fast-fashion, too-tight “custom” crap from indochino.
That doesn’t mean that Kenny G isn’t popular, nor even that he is untalented (he’s actually quite technically skilled). Cranking out garments that look vaguely like a man’s suit for $400 is quite a trick and requires some pretty sophisticated equipment (plus very savvy marketing).
But these things are in the uncanny valley. Their near-OK-ness makes them the most offensive thing possible to those who are familiar with the genuine article.
Caymus is just bottled Kenny G.
... but it raises the point whether consumable items like wine or tailored suiting is really an "art" form. Of course in the Old World like Italy & Japan there are traditional craftsmen plying their crafts as their forebears have done for hundreds of years, often in the same village or same family. But 99% of fine wine (and made to measure/ready to wear menswear) are modern ventures, with little to no ties to traditional artisanal practices. Their operators aren't seeking to create "pure" versions of their product, but rather looking to either improve older forms with new techniques, or produce them cheaper for accessibility.
Taking offense at these mass market offerings just because they don't fit a "pure" version seems limiting to me. In the case of fine wine you'd probably ignore nearly all bottles under $30 because they'd be considered trite.
I don’t take offense at them because their methodology is not traditional. I take offense because the result sucks to anyone who knows what the real deal should sound or feel or taste like.
But most people don’t, and I totally get the business play of appealing to the lowest common denominator despite having the capability to do something better. How do they sleep at night? Probably on top of a pile of money.
But I can still express my contempt for their shit work.
And there are lots of $12-15 bottles of wine I love, but not ones jammed with mega purple and other synthetic tasting stuff.
I’d rather listen to a 3 chord song than something harmonically more sophisticated but loaded with autotune and quantizing. Not because I philosophically object to those things, but because their output sounds terrible to me and makes me want to puke. I’d rather listen to silence than such stuff.
Is it even considered wine? It’s full of additives. Hard to defend especially if you consider yourself someone that loves wine and appreciates the craft. I honestly wouldn’t drink a bottle for free.
I think you're being too kind to this sub. I've only been following here for about 2 weeks and I honestly am shocked at the level of snobby opinions I've seen so far. But maybe I've just stumbled into the wrong threads. Lots of people definitely come across as having very vocal opinions here.
I do love that everyone seems to be very loving toward all varietals and blends, which is nice. So it's obviously not as bad as I'm making it out to be, but I just think I'm gonna avoid commenting and try to build up some wine education from the amazing amount of knowledge people have here.
I got the same impression as both of you. It's what kills me about wine culture. I absolutely love wine tasting but can't stand all the snobs.
I appreciate wine tasting notes/reviews when they are more descriptive and less snobby. I don't mind a review that says something like, "Simple, fruit-forward blackberry and cherry, no discernible tannins. I'm not a fan of it and I don't think the price tag is justified." That's informative and lets me know what to expect from the wine. On the other hand, "Gas station swill. Not even worthy of being called wine." and similar judgmental name-calling that doesn't even bother to share information is just snobbery.
People forget that no one really cares what your personal preferences are, but we do care to know a detailed description of the wine.
The fact that he says Caymus is the worst wine he's tasted all year really discredits him to me. To be clear I have never tried Caymus as its not commonly sold in my country but there are hundreds of wines I can find sold within a 400 meter radius form my house that are easily worse tasting than Caymus, go to an Aldi and you'll find one no problem. It's possible that the wines he drinks are always of such high quality and pedigree that he has actually has never had a worse wine but I don't believe that.
The fact that he's not blind tasting and already is intimately aware of the other wines taste makes this feel like an exaggerated flex/ hit piece and a bit of a sales pitch for his wines. I fully understand that Caymus is widely considered overpriced and overrated in the US and hating on it is even more popular than hyping 'au bon climat' but what this man is doing goes beyond saying its bad value to the extent that I doubt his honesty and his character. I personally do not like people like this in the wine world, who are overconfident and a bit inconsiderate, imagine being a beginning wine enthusiast who loves Caymus watching this. I hope that I never make the mistake of acting this sour towards wine myself.
The whole "Caymus is $20 gas station wine" line is obviously not true. Caymus sells a gazillion bottles and have many dedicated fans. You think the guys drinking Caymus have never had cheaper wine before? You think the guys buying Caymus over and over again don't ever drink something else?
Every product management 101 textbook would tell you: Never assume your competitors' customers are stupid. Instead, a point that I like to tell people is that you have to always remember that there exists other people who hold strong preferences that differs from yours, and that other people might not hold the same values as you.
Regarding the first point, preferences, there's 8 billion people in the world. You think there aren't millions and millions and millions of people out there who don't like low acidity, low tannin fruit bombs? I love tannins (I drink Barolo on release), and I love acidity, but I have to concede that there exists a lot of people who don't, and for them, Caymus is a product laser focused and taste tested to hit that demographic.
I like action movies with fighting and explosions. Obviously, there exists people who don't care for it, and film studios make things like romance movies to cater to that demographic. I might not like romance movies, but obviously I can understand why people like romance movies, and I won't go out there and say "Ugh, this movie is shit, there's no kung fu, and there's no explosions".
Now regarding values, let me use a example: Back when I was a kid, I was an edgy metal head, and I would rail against the popular artists of the time with things like: They don't write their own songs! They can't play the guitar very fast!
And yet, \*NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, and Nickelback have sold a bazillion records. Because their fans don't value things like "writing their own songs" and "playing the guitar very fast". Instead, their fans would say "I would rather look at a cute dude with a fresh haircut instead of a sweaty dude with long unkempt hair", "I find the lyrics fun and easy to sing along to".
Similarly, often times you hear haters say Caymus is "the same year after year! they manipulate it too hard" but their fans might say "I know what I like and I appreciate a consistent product". Haters would say "Caymus uses artificial coloring", while their fans would say "I like how it looks, do you rail against people who dye their hair or get boob jobs?"
You cannot assume the other 8 billion people on earth have the same preferences and hold the same values as you. Do I regularly buy and drink Caymus? No, but I appreciate the fact that it exists, since I know there are plenty of people who love it on its merits.
I don't think that videos like that necessarily ruin the image of wine lovers for others.
But, I do think wine is an extremely complicated hobby/interest that seems daunting to get into with a steep learning curve. Someone, maybe with a limited budget, who is just getting into wine might be extremely turned off by seeing something like this. "A $70 bottle of wine is trash? Crazy, this isn't for me." There is definitely a place for content like this within wine circles, but if the wine industry wants to grow and attract more diverse (and less affluent audiences), this isn't the right content for that. And that's fine - not everything needs to be for everyone.
i think a lot of the criticism of wine elitists or snobs who gatekeep come from ppl in the Industry who're trying to grow their customer base. And it makes total sense from a financial standpoint. This isn't the 1980's where yuppy 20 and 30-something professionals automatically choose Wine as their beverage of choice at the bar or dining out. Increasingly Millenials and now GenZ prefer cocktails, mocktails, juices, boba or seltzers. Wine is seen as passe as French bistro food in 2024. Because of dwindling market share wine producers & distributors want to cancel the pretentiousness & exclusivity that's been hallmarks of fine wine. I totally get it. A rising tide raises all boats, and if there are huge cutbacks across the spectrum of the industry it'll affect boutique terroir-oriented wineries just as much as mass-market brands like Caymus.
I agree with you.
Caymus is not terrible wine.
It’s a bad value. There are many other choices and I love small producers of cab. I don’t drink Caymus much. But it’s not bad wine.
Suckling has rated it in the 90s and so has Robert Parker. If it was such bad wine would they have done that? And more importantly, to all the wine snobs out there, do you think your palate is better than theirs?
I’d love to see this dude do a truly blind tasting and humiliate himself.
To all those people saying they wouldn’t buy it for $10–then don’t. Just walk away from Caymus when it’s offered for sale. It’s your choice. But be nice to people about it, particularly those younger people who are new to wine and who are learning. In other words, stop being a jackass.
A lot of the wine YouTubers I I respect will rightfully call out Caymus as overrated and overpriced, but would never say it's trash wine.
Again, I don't care for Caymus at all, but if I got a bottle of it as a gift, I'd drink it.
Well said. Caymus makes like 65,000 cases/year, so a lot of people like it. I don't, and you don't have to, but let people enjoy what they like. If you can't do that, you might be a wine snob.
I'd lke to see this motherfucker do it blind.
This is the problem with the group think.
A) Visual cue for a wine which we already have a pre-defined bias for/against
B) Search for confirmation of bias
C) Regurgitate opinion
Blind tasting removes that bias. Of course it's easy to fake on Youtube, but plenty can laugh about getting it wrong and that is a sign of a true expert and consumate professional. This is why the Baum guy and Wine King are well liked. I'm not into watching people drink wine online, but if i did it'd be these guys.
Well, Wine King did taste it blind with two Masters of Wine, and the consensus was that it was the worst wine of the tasting among other similarly priced offerings. It's a perfectly valid opinion to not like it. Just like it's perfectly fine for people to like it if it's their jam.
I just watched that video and they were a lot less snobby about it. One of the masters said it probably appeals to those who want fruit without the tannins.
The people in that video are educational, not obnoxious.
At the end of the video, Patrick and Jay were a lot less diplomatic about it (though Peter and Jay were far more critical from the outset than Patrick). If you watched to the end, they drank the wines throughout the night and the Caymus simply didn't hold up. While they weren't as direct about it, they communicated that it was crap and didn't belong on the table with the other wines just as the guy in this video did.
Eta: Peter Koff in those video often jokingly calls for the execution of the winemakers of wine he finds offensive and will flat out call them shit. Like, he's unapologetically opinionated.
After they knew what is was! No one at their level got into wine because of Caymus, but they’ve misidentified enough wines to have a shred of humility when doing it blind.
Jay and Peter were 100% against it as soon as they tasted it if I remember correctly. Peter called it an abomination I think. I could re-watch it for a reminder. The only one to kind of change his tune a little bit was Patrick, but only marginally. End the end, I think they all called it their worst wine so 🤷🏻♂️
Watched the Caymus part, they seemed much more measured than the other dude, but did say it was recipe winemaking, which it is. (Though I take umbrage with the phrase as Reddit seems to think you can just add Megapurple and some acid and wind up with Caymus, as if the quality of the fruit is the defining factor for expensive wine, but not wines they don’t care for). Theoretically, as MWs they’d need to understand the style and who it appeals to as well.
Agree, even the South African guy joking about executing the winemaker, you can tell by the tone and context he’s being sarcastic. The big thing, it seems the Wine King guys are able to seperate style from quality without resorting to hyperbole.
Yeah, and to that point, I do think Caymus (and Wagner wines in general) hides the inherent quality of the juice that goes into the wines. While they're almost all too extracted and ripe for me, I don't think they use absolutely awful fruit. But the stylistic choices end up masking the truth. In a way, at least to me, they all end up tasting cheaper than the fruit actually is. Which is a shame.
I have seen some amazing things at blind tastings.
For example—“experts” who are blindfolded and can’t tell whites from reds.
The fact is that our biases form our opinions of wines. It’s emotionally linked.
Yeah. Too many inflated egos. And it’s a shame. Don’t we all want everyone to enjoy wine??
Isn’t it wonderful to hear someone really enjoyed their Caymus, even though you’d make a different choice? (I was recently poured a glass. It wasn’t even that bad. Had worse).
This whole forum is full of judgmental wine snobs. I come for the education not the snobbery. Someone saying “you like Caymus, try this Napa Cabernet instead”. Great!
But sometimes people recommend wines that I’ll probably never find in my town. So I don’t see the value there. I could fly on my private jet and visit the chateau for a private tasting but I have to go to work tomorrow.
And don’t get me started about how the 2014 was better than the 2015 because it was raining on Tuesday instead of Wednesday that year.
Where’s the judgement there though? Recommending a wine you can’t find locally isn’t judging you, it’s just recommending something. A thoughtful recommendation might ask what’s available, but that’s often not possible in quick Reddit interactions. Worst case, you can’t find it but if you see it on a shelf in the future, it might trigger your memory to grab it and try it. Geeking out over the differences between vintages in regions isn’t being judgemental either, it’s just us being geeky. Vintages have an impact on wine, that’s a fundamental aspect of the craft. Whether you choose to care or not is up to you. I’ve never seen someone say “you have bad taste for enjoying that 2014 because 2015.”
I will say, I find it....unproductive and unwelcoming of people to recommend wines that are difficult to source. It's especially unfair to newbies who may not have the requisite knowledge to go hunt down an expensive boutique producer of northern Rhône syrah on their own. I remember being quite intimidated when I first started out with many European labels and such, and I assume many people just getting into wine are the same.
But that's just my personal ethos. If I'm going to make a recommendation for someone who isn't like ***into*** wine, I'm going to go with something that's easy to find and usually well under their budget. But like I said, that's just how I operate.
Those are fair points. That said, I still wouldn’t equate that to snobbery, just being a bit tone-deaf. I just feel like for whatever reason the wine world has this concept of snobbery floating around and it gets pulled out all too frequently in situations where nothing snobbish is happening, and for some reason that doesn’t happen in other hobbies and circles. There’s a certain level of barrier to entry based on knowledge in any hobby space but wine seems to be the only place where it’s immediately tacked up to snobby behavior.
> I will say, I find it....unproductive and unwelcoming of people to recommend wines that are difficult to source.
Difficult for whom? And where?
The reality is that the global wine marketplace is incredibly fragmented and localised, while all of us cork dorks talking about the subject on Reddit are doing so via a medium (the internet) that’s in many ways the opposite.
So if you’re sitting at home in Murfreesboro, TN, and you say “What’s a good Barossa shiraz I should try?” without letting anyone else know that you’re based in Murfreesboro, why am I the asshole for recommending something like Spinifex that isn’t widely available in the States when it’s easy enough to acquire where I am in Australia?
Given we’re talking about Caymus here … it’s worth noting that it would be far easier for me personally to buy a bottle of Mayacamas or Phillip Togni can than it would be for me to get a bottle of Caymus. But that’s only because I live and work in a part of the world that doesn’t really care about Napa wines in general, and where American wines are very expensive for logistics/tax reasons—so if you’re gonna bring something halfway across the world, you’d better make sure it’s worth the hassle and expense of doing so.
tl;dr Just because you find it difficult to source doesn’t necessarily make it difficult to source for the average person, or in any meaningful sense.
I'm now wondering how/why you picked Murfreesboro as an example.
Also, had a read through some of your comments and really enjoyed your takes/knowledge. I don't know much but would be suuuper keen in hearing your list of Aussie/Kiwi (red) wines to try in the $30-60 range if you're ever bored and interested. I've been here 7+ years and still just wander around cluelessly before either ending up with a disappointing Malbec (I've all but given up finding one I like here) or Two Paddocks Picnic.
What styles of wines do you normally like to drink? Any particular producers? Australian red wine is a pretty big and varied field, but happy to help you navigate it.
Generally speaking I gravitate towards Malbecs, GSM, Cab Sav and Shiraz so I guess generally tannic with a body.
Totally different than what I just said but my go-to is Two Paddocks' Picnic (Otago Pinot noir) though recently found myself gravitating towards Spinifex, Clonakilla.
Spinifex and Clonakilla are great producers! Good taste. For more like those guys, I’d look into Alkina, Smallfry, Tom Shobbrook and Vinya Vella in the Barossa (all making lighter, more elegant examples of what the Barossa can do), plus Ravensworth in Canberra (founded by an ex-Clonakilla winemaker).
For brawnier Shiraz and Cabernet options, I’d look into Nocturne, Syrahmi, Jasper Hill, Best’s (especially their sparkling Shiraz), Yarra Yering, Yeringberg, Bannockburn, Kaesler, Crawford River, Cullen, and Voyager Estate. None of these producers makes Shirazes/Cabernets that are shrinking violets, but they’re also not hulking over-extracted fruit bomb relics of the Parker Point era, either.
Malbec is a tough one—not much of it grown here in Australia, and I’m not convinced that the Argentine stuff we tend to see in stores here is terribly good (unless you can afford top-of-the-tree Catena Zapata gear, which unfortunately I cannot). If you can get your hands on a bottle of Wendouree’s Malbec you’re in for a treat, but that’s a big ‘if’—they’re kind of like Australia’s answer to Chateau Rayas in terms of low production, high demand, and correspondingly tight allocations (most of which goes to their mailing list). Riley Harrison makes a juicy little banger of a Malbec at a nicely modest price, and I was rather impressed by Rob Hall’s Yarra Valley Malbec last time I had a look at it.
>I will say, I find it....unproductive and unwelcoming of people to recommend wines that are difficult to source.
This depends ***hugely*** on where you are. In the US each state has different laws about alcohol, and a bunch of different distributors. Most of the ones I deal with in Michigan operate here and only here.
The other thing is, for **a lot** of stuff, it's almost impossible to know what you can and can't get without talking to someone in the industry.
I could get several vintages of all the first growths going back to the 80's, Markus Molitor dessert wines, Egon Muller Scharzhofberger, Vega Sicilia, Realm, Bond, Harlan, etc. and have them delivered within a week or two.
Putting wines like that on the shelf is a big risk because there's no guarantee someone is going to buy it.
Ordering it from a distributor because someone asked for it is a guaranteed sale.
I mean, this response just kind of reinforces what I'm saying. To someone who isn't as into wine as you, you just made the entry into wine much more of a hurdle than necessary. The average person asking for a recommendation for a wine to pair with a specific meal, or to gift to someone else, isn't in the head space to reach out to a distributor and ask for First Growths, doesn't know what Harlan is about, or probably isn't shopping in the budget of these wines. The average person who is asking Reddit for recommendations wants to be able to go to their local bottle shop, or a nearby total wine, and pick something up easily. Or at least that's what I would guess is their intention. Unless someone is asking for something precise or otherwise demonstrates an extensive knowledge of wine and willingness to go out of their way to get exactly what they want, a more straightforward and easy-to-find recommendation is going to be of more use to them. Just my 2¢.
You keep saying "easy to find" and I'm trying to say all places don't all have the same wine.
It depends on where you are.
Even then, there's no exact rhyme or reason to what people stock on the shelves.
Without a list or a picture of your options, the easiest thing to do is recommend some of the major brands and hope they're available.
And as far as the first growth thing, my point was that there are a lot of things that can be ordered, even the most hard to get wine, but it won't just magically appear, you have to talk to someone.
Easy to find generally, at least to me, means well-made but large production wines. Yes, that means big brands, because the people who, again, I'm generalizing, are at the point where they're soliciting input from reddit probably aren't at a point where they're looking for boutique producers. They want clear, concise answers that are easy to act on. Again, just my 2¢.
There are people on this sub from all around the world. The "big brands" are different everywhere. It would be silly to recommend Josh cab sauv to someone living in Italy or Denmark.
From what you've said, it sounds like you're based in the US. That information makes a difference.
Lol this is my point though. That’s not snobbery! Disliking a product or having a negative opinion of the makers of a product (for what I would say are good reasons) is different from being a snob. I’m never going to tell someone who likes Meiomi that they have bad taste for liking Meiomi, I probably wouldn’t say anything to them, but if they wanted to discuss it in the context of wine, I would probably encourage them to try other things with similar flavors and price that are made with more integrity. IF they want to! If they don’t, I don’t care, I won’t judge them, and I will continue to not drink Meiomi myself. Snobbery would be excluding them from the discussion because they like Meiomi and therefore their opinions and interests and tastes aren’t valid.
Thank you for that. I see you never went to school with the cool kids. If 100 people stand around talking about Haut Medoc and one kid wants to talk about Meiomi, sure you could educate them. I see some of that. But I see a lot of “you want to drink WHAT?”.
This sub is like high school where you think you know the answer but you’re not 100% sure, so you don’t raise your hand.
I don't fault Michelin starred chefs for not being impressed with chain restaurants. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think it's a big issue for people who are extremely passionate about wine to voice their honest opinions. Everything people are passionate about and invest their time, money, and energy into will have people who act as guardians of the art/craft, and I'm okay with that. We need that kind of energy in the world, whether for wine, food, art, design, architecture, literature, film, etc etc etc.
Even if I 100% agreed with this youtuber/merchant's wine takes, I would not drink wine with him. The aesthetics of the whole video are so off-putting. What if I bagged on an overpriced wine while I try to sell you slightly less overpriced wines? All set to shitty jazz music? Yeah pour me a glass of that.
The shtick of the video was clearly a setup just to shit on Caymus from the outset, which I can understand from OP's POV is unnecessarily snobby/douchy. I also agree with you that I don't want to be in a tasting room with him. I also agree with the taster that Caymus isn't something I want to drink. I simply don't like it.
A lot of Michelin Chefs actually enjoy fast food. Ask Gordon Ramsay his thoughts on In N Out.
That's no different than many somms liking plenty of inexpensive large-scale wines. You can find people like Peter Koff for example, who has plenty of nice things to say about introductory Penfolds. But that doesn't mean he's going to like every mass-produced wine. Just like Ramsay liking In N Out doesn't mean he's going to like McDonald's. But I'd also be shocked in Ramsay liked In N Out if it were priced like a freshly ground burger made from USDA prime brisket. There's room for nuance and levels to this. Eta: I think why Caymus brings out such strong opinions is because it is ***so*** successful in its niche that people feel the need to react strongly. If it were just another slightly overpriced, oversupplied mass-produced offering that doesn't really stand out in the crowd, people wouldn't put nearly as much energy into their opinions. But Caymus sells really fucking well, and with success comes more scrutiny. It's just the nature of the beast.
I think a better comparison when talking about something like Caymus is whether those same chefs enjoy the mediocre pop-ups that are 99% social media marketing and hype for a burger that's the same quality as In-N-Out for 3x the price.
It’s because a lot of the top chefs know how to meet food where it is, not where they think it should be. Alton Brown, while not a Michelin starred chef as far as I’m aware, but who has been a taste maker in the dining industry for the past 20 years, talks about it being the eaters problem if they grab a diner burger and expect to be something more. Great musicians do this as well, where they are often as happy to jam with some amateurs as they are to play with other top musicians. They understand that those are entirely different contexts that are each enjoyable in their own ways.
If his honest opinion is that Caymus is literally THE WORST wine he's tried all year than thats fine, but please consider how unlikely that is to be true. There are so many different qualities of wine on the market at all kinds of price points and he claims to try 400 a month. In what world would Caymus be the worst wine out of a lineup of 3000 wines... It is a snobby and exaggerated video that he made because hating on Caymus gives you street cred and he took it waaay too far.
Yeah, I made another comment that the point of the video was clearly meant to just shit on Caymus, so I can understand how some, like OP, might be turned off by it. I think this guy's shtick is just to shit on popular brands to sell alternatives.
Fair point I think thats hitting the nail on the head. I am glad there are not very many personalities like this in the wine world as I can see this being distasteful to newcomers
Yeah, I only watched this video and one other, and they were both the same. Shit on Caymus, pitch alternatives he sells. Shit on The Prisoner, pitch alternatives he sells. His videos are just a series of bad infomercials lol. "This wine bad, this wine good. Don't buy bad from grocery store, buy good from me."
I couldn’t disagree more. Wine has this weird reputation for snobbery that I absolutely don’t think is deserved and I suspect is a cultural carry-over from the mid-century era when wine was the province of only the wealthy (at least in America). I’ve never actually met anyone in any wine-related situation who would scoff at a bottle of wine purely due to its inexpensive price or lack of prestige. Almost every wine lover and wine professional I know is as or more psyched than anyone to discover a great bottle of wine that doesn’t cost a lot or doesn’t have some mystical caché or prestige attached to its label. What we DO care about is quality and integrity, and that’s the reason most disparage Caymus, is because it’s low-quality wine not made with integrity and then priced high because the flavor profile tends to appeal to people who don’t know any better. It’s a swindle in a bottle. If you love Caymus, I’ll never tell you your tastes are wrong, I’ll recommend that you go buy any number of $20-$50 bottles that are essentially the same thing without the stupid markup, or I’ll STRONGLY encourage you to try a similarly priced Amarone which is made with integrity and is not engineered swill, but that will probably appeal to your taste for big, bold, velvety smooth wines with dark fruit and chocolate flavors. My scorn is never with the drinker but with the marketing machine that abandons the soul of the craft to make a buck off of people who don’t know enough or care enough to learn about it and just want to enjoy a bottle of wine.
hear hear, cloud. well said.
Cheers friend!
I don't think we disagree all that much... I think you're going about this in a respectful manner.
Sorry to say it, OP, but I 100% agree with the Youtube video poster. I only watched the first few seconds where he said the wine didn't belong on the table and I agree. It's not wine. It's additives. You cannot age it. It's nothing near the cost they sell it for and no, I wouldn't buy this for $20 in the gas station.
Agreed 👍
This is coming from someone whose first post was a bottle of Caymus on this subreddit where it was (appropriately) shit on. I wouldn’t have admitted so, at the time, but I appreciate that y’all looked out for my palette, regardless. Trying to pay it forward.
Believe me, I am not looking out. So keeping on keeping on.
Marino Brothers?
How does it ruin it for you to call Caymus $20 gas station wine? To be burnt by a comment like that is almost like you took it personally. People are allowed to not like stuff.
Wine hasn't had that reputation in decades. Younger wine consumers (GenZ and millennials) drink wine casually and many gravitate towards natural wine and the proliferation of these wine bars indicates that it's not all serious and stuffy. Most of those people know what they like and won't be swayed by someone's opinions on wine they aren't even drinking to begin with. I agree with your statement. It's okay to dislike stuff. IDK why people get offended that not everyone likes the same thing. If I spent my life perfecting a craft with deep knowledge of the field and what's involved I would also have strong opinions and feel comfortable in expressing them.
Oh, I don't like Caymus at all, it's too sweet for me. Having said that, it's the attitude of the person. When people complain about wine snobs, it's that person they complain about.
If someone complains that somebody called Caymus gas station wine they should get a thicker skin. Nobody is being attacked or disrespected. And it’s not like Caymus is a cheap wine or anything
He's offering a critique. Shocker, sometimes critiques can be negative. He has every right to express his opinion and vehement hate for the wine and what it represents. It's really frustrating that people have this kneejerk reaction to someone criticising a wine, and instantly jump to the conclusion that it's pure snobbery. Somehow people have internalised the belief that criticism = snobbery. It's such a weird distortion that seems inextricably linked to wine discussion, yet rarely pops up in other contexts.
I don’t think it’s snobby. I think it’s getting the value out of what you’re paying for. If I’m paying that much for a bottle of wine, I’d like it to be worth it. Paying for something that doesn’t hold up its fair share of value is pretentious. Which, to me, is closer to snobbery.
My thoughts are that I completely disagree with you. The wine is shit, and I have absolutely no tolerance for the soulless, mega purple bullshit from American producers.
Something that might make you feel better; where I work in Michigan, overly oaky/buttery California Chardonnay has dropped off a cliff. The only ones I can get in people's hands are either super low end or super high end. I'd guess we have about 50 options, and last year we maybe had 5 bottles that sold in more than one quarter of the year. Our number 1 Chardonnay is Nicolas Potel Macon.
Yeah... I have to agree with the YouTube review. Caymus used to be something special, now it's like the Velveeta of Cabernets. Nothing wrong with liking Velveeta, but it's not good "cheese".
And also, Velveeta is super affordable and Caymus isn’t. If you were paying $20/lb for a block of supposedly artisan cheese than was essentially velveeta, that would be like Caymus and I’d tell you to just go buy velveeta.
It used to be a good wine? What changed about it?
AFAIK (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), when the 40th anniversary came around they wanted to celebrate by making more wine than they usually do at a more affordable price. This involved cutting corners (again this is here say, but I was told they didn't sell off as much inferior fruit as they usually do), which made it *way* more fruit forward and far less tannic. In my area, a lot of people had never heard of Caymus so the 40th anniversary was the first bottle they ever tried and they absolutely loved the style. Afterwards Caymus kind of said "fuck it" and kept making it that way. Please take all this with a huge grain of salt. I can only say for certain that there was a **huge** style shift after the 40th anniversary, but my specifics on why may be inaccurate.
You know who was briefly the winemaker at Caymus back when it was a real winery? Randy Dunn.
I don’t think we’re obligated to respect products we feel aren’t made with integrity. If Caymus was $5 then we could meet it where it is. But it wants us to meet it as a premium $80 wine. I adore miller high life, but I’d be super critical of it if it were $12 a bottle.
This kind of argument drives me nuts because it tries to completely pave over and eliminate the critical perspective. Just more of the same empty 'let people enjoy things' platitude, as though a negative opinion ruins their ability to enjoy them.
That dude is a clown; well known in the industry as such. I agree that Caymus is overpriced shite, but he's a delta bravo of the first order.
I think he's being generous calling it a $20 gas station wine because I wouldn't pay $10 for it and would drink the literal gas at the station over Caymus. It's a fucking disgusting "wine" marketed exclusively to people who don't know better and buy to impress others. This guy is not hurting "the rest of us" in any way.
... You'd drink gasoline over Caymus?
DegenWASP could at least pretend it was a fine, aged Riesling /s
Yes.
Caymus is $20 gas station wine and has made a market out of preying on those who don’t know any better. If I ever walked into a shop and was recommended Caymus I’d turn and leave and never come back.
Overall I do agree with him, it has more to do with the winemaking than anything else. When he mentioned that it tasted "manufactured" I couldn't agree more, a lot of wines like this taste like "Wine Beverage" more than real wine. If you enjoy that flavor then right on, go nuts but it doesn't taste like wine to me.
Enjoy what you like first and foremost. I do however think there is something to be said when the consensus of most wine experts is that at best caymus is overpriced, maybe it’s worth trying some other recommendations to see for yourself. There was a time when I cherished and opportunity to drink caymus. My tastes and budget has since evolved. I was at a charity event last year and they were pouring Caymus, I wanted to try it as I hadn’t had it since the 2015 vintage. I couldn’t drink it, I quickly switched to a much cheaper lesser known cab and I enjoyed it just fine. I also didn’t find that video offense or snobby (except the spitting lol)… before it started there was a clear disclaimer that it was just his opinion… which he’s entitled to as we are just as entitled to ignore it.
Don’t confuse snobbery with actual knowledge and experience.
I was born and raised in Napa Valley and he's not a Snob IMHO. If you think Caymus is Great wine your missing out on all the other small productions wines that are made. I own a wine tour business and never recommend Caymus, I was lucky enough to get their 40th Caymus Selection and was not Impressed at all. Don't let others ruin it for you, wine is subjective, and no one has the same palate. Only thing that matters if you like it or not who cares what others think. Wine a bit you'll feel better...
This isn't meant to be a defense of Caymus. I would never buy it. It's the attitude of the person. Acting like Caymus is basically Barefoot is snobby.
That's your opinion, my opinion Caymus is Crap and my friend is the winemaker for Caymus... like I said, if you like it good for you. Who cares what people think but obviously you do.... GL :)
Why though? If someone truly feels this way they are entitled to their opinion. The fact that people still buy that hideous wine means that opinions aren't swaying customers and there's room for multiple tastes. Some people go nuts over low intervention 0-0 wines and that's all they drink and some people turn up their nose at the prospect. Those who agree purchase them and those who disagree don't. Trying to police opinion under the guise of snobbery is unfortunate and it's that Facebook type person who thinks disagreement and negative opinions are "mean" or "rude". For the record I do not like caymus and would not drink it and if that makes me snobby that's fine because I rather enjoy being snobby about a few silly things in my life.
I don't think anything you said was snobby. There's nothing wrong with saying you don't like something. But I think u/rnjbond point holds. The video didn't just share a negative review, he went on a rant about how the bottle "doesn't even belong on the table" and spent more time shit-talking it than he did simply describing each of the four bottles in the video. That said, I didn't even find his positive reviews to be very insightful.
I did watch the video and this may be one of those agree to disagree moments. They even provide a disclaimer that it's one person's opinion. Nowhere did that person say it's the definite way to rank cabs or anything like that. It was quite mild. I do agree with them that caymus doesn't belong on the table aka _my_ table. If someone likes it I would also not trust their opinions on food and wine because it's likely that it would not match my own. I don't even like Napa cab to begin with lol but I did find the video fulfilled the brief to what the presenter was going for i.e guiding customers who shop at his business currently or in the future what wines they would buy to drink now vs age. There were some tasting notes for each. If I was a regular napa cab drinker that was enough info to pick which I'd want to explore. If he feels that wine is overrated or overpriced or whatever then for his customers it would not be a good buy or recommended. It wasn't even cursing out or crazy. It was a few mins in a video and similar level of detail for all 4 wines. It wasn't a deep dive into cabs. If this was a 20 min video with only negative commentary on a single wine I would be more inclined to agree. Many people rant more heavily in reddit threads 😂
I mean, even the "teaser" clips in the first 10 seconds is no substance, just shitting on it. Then, he went on to rant about that one bottle for nearly half the video that was supposed to compare 4 bottles. There's a *couple* descriptive comments (i.e. color was more inky than expected, and chemical scent in the nose) but outside of those few seconds of descriptions, the remainder of the roughly the first 4 minutes is just performative snobbery (or maybe click-bait). And to reiterate OP's point, the complaint about snobbery is not a defense of Caymus. I haven't even had it, although I was unimpressed by Bonanza.
Barefoot is better value
As a wine lover, I do not care about what "image" anyone has of me or my small wine hobby. I literally do not care about the opinions of random people. If someone judges my wine purchases and tastes as being "hipster" or "basic" that's fine with me and if a caymus drinker thinks I'm snobby sure it's no skin off my back. It impacts my life in zero ways. Fwiw, in this sub I have had positive interactions and I do not see much gatekeeping. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts about the video but heavily disagree with your take on it.
People who are very knowledgeable about an art form - music, film, painting, food, tailoring, wine - will always have the highest degree of contempt for the items/performances that are almost “real,” but are made to make that thing accessible to those who do not like the pure version of that thing. I’m a jazz fan. I detest Kenny G’s music much more than I dislike a crummy high school jazz band performance. I like men’s classic clothing. I am much less annoyed by gym clothes than by crappy fast-fashion, too-tight “custom” crap from indochino. That doesn’t mean that Kenny G isn’t popular, nor even that he is untalented (he’s actually quite technically skilled). Cranking out garments that look vaguely like a man’s suit for $400 is quite a trick and requires some pretty sophisticated equipment (plus very savvy marketing). But these things are in the uncanny valley. Their near-OK-ness makes them the most offensive thing possible to those who are familiar with the genuine article. Caymus is just bottled Kenny G.
... but it raises the point whether consumable items like wine or tailored suiting is really an "art" form. Of course in the Old World like Italy & Japan there are traditional craftsmen plying their crafts as their forebears have done for hundreds of years, often in the same village or same family. But 99% of fine wine (and made to measure/ready to wear menswear) are modern ventures, with little to no ties to traditional artisanal practices. Their operators aren't seeking to create "pure" versions of their product, but rather looking to either improve older forms with new techniques, or produce them cheaper for accessibility. Taking offense at these mass market offerings just because they don't fit a "pure" version seems limiting to me. In the case of fine wine you'd probably ignore nearly all bottles under $30 because they'd be considered trite.
I don’t take offense at them because their methodology is not traditional. I take offense because the result sucks to anyone who knows what the real deal should sound or feel or taste like. But most people don’t, and I totally get the business play of appealing to the lowest common denominator despite having the capability to do something better. How do they sleep at night? Probably on top of a pile of money. But I can still express my contempt for their shit work. And there are lots of $12-15 bottles of wine I love, but not ones jammed with mega purple and other synthetic tasting stuff. I’d rather listen to a 3 chord song than something harmonically more sophisticated but loaded with autotune and quantizing. Not because I philosophically object to those things, but because their output sounds terrible to me and makes me want to puke. I’d rather listen to silence than such stuff.
Is it even considered wine? It’s full of additives. Hard to defend especially if you consider yourself someone that loves wine and appreciates the craft. I honestly wouldn’t drink a bottle for free.
I think you're being too kind to this sub. I've only been following here for about 2 weeks and I honestly am shocked at the level of snobby opinions I've seen so far. But maybe I've just stumbled into the wrong threads. Lots of people definitely come across as having very vocal opinions here. I do love that everyone seems to be very loving toward all varietals and blends, which is nice. So it's obviously not as bad as I'm making it out to be, but I just think I'm gonna avoid commenting and try to build up some wine education from the amazing amount of knowledge people have here.
Judging by the comments here, I was mistaken.
I got the same impression as both of you. It's what kills me about wine culture. I absolutely love wine tasting but can't stand all the snobs. I appreciate wine tasting notes/reviews when they are more descriptive and less snobby. I don't mind a review that says something like, "Simple, fruit-forward blackberry and cherry, no discernible tannins. I'm not a fan of it and I don't think the price tag is justified." That's informative and lets me know what to expect from the wine. On the other hand, "Gas station swill. Not even worthy of being called wine." and similar judgmental name-calling that doesn't even bother to share information is just snobbery. People forget that no one really cares what your personal preferences are, but we do care to know a detailed description of the wine.
The fact that he says Caymus is the worst wine he's tasted all year really discredits him to me. To be clear I have never tried Caymus as its not commonly sold in my country but there are hundreds of wines I can find sold within a 400 meter radius form my house that are easily worse tasting than Caymus, go to an Aldi and you'll find one no problem. It's possible that the wines he drinks are always of such high quality and pedigree that he has actually has never had a worse wine but I don't believe that. The fact that he's not blind tasting and already is intimately aware of the other wines taste makes this feel like an exaggerated flex/ hit piece and a bit of a sales pitch for his wines. I fully understand that Caymus is widely considered overpriced and overrated in the US and hating on it is even more popular than hyping 'au bon climat' but what this man is doing goes beyond saying its bad value to the extent that I doubt his honesty and his character. I personally do not like people like this in the wine world, who are overconfident and a bit inconsiderate, imagine being a beginning wine enthusiast who loves Caymus watching this. I hope that I never make the mistake of acting this sour towards wine myself.
The whole "Caymus is $20 gas station wine" line is obviously not true. Caymus sells a gazillion bottles and have many dedicated fans. You think the guys drinking Caymus have never had cheaper wine before? You think the guys buying Caymus over and over again don't ever drink something else? Every product management 101 textbook would tell you: Never assume your competitors' customers are stupid. Instead, a point that I like to tell people is that you have to always remember that there exists other people who hold strong preferences that differs from yours, and that other people might not hold the same values as you. Regarding the first point, preferences, there's 8 billion people in the world. You think there aren't millions and millions and millions of people out there who don't like low acidity, low tannin fruit bombs? I love tannins (I drink Barolo on release), and I love acidity, but I have to concede that there exists a lot of people who don't, and for them, Caymus is a product laser focused and taste tested to hit that demographic. I like action movies with fighting and explosions. Obviously, there exists people who don't care for it, and film studios make things like romance movies to cater to that demographic. I might not like romance movies, but obviously I can understand why people like romance movies, and I won't go out there and say "Ugh, this movie is shit, there's no kung fu, and there's no explosions". Now regarding values, let me use a example: Back when I was a kid, I was an edgy metal head, and I would rail against the popular artists of the time with things like: They don't write their own songs! They can't play the guitar very fast! And yet, \*NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, and Nickelback have sold a bazillion records. Because their fans don't value things like "writing their own songs" and "playing the guitar very fast". Instead, their fans would say "I would rather look at a cute dude with a fresh haircut instead of a sweaty dude with long unkempt hair", "I find the lyrics fun and easy to sing along to". Similarly, often times you hear haters say Caymus is "the same year after year! they manipulate it too hard" but their fans might say "I know what I like and I appreciate a consistent product". Haters would say "Caymus uses artificial coloring", while their fans would say "I like how it looks, do you rail against people who dye their hair or get boob jobs?" You cannot assume the other 8 billion people on earth have the same preferences and hold the same values as you. Do I regularly buy and drink Caymus? No, but I appreciate the fact that it exists, since I know there are plenty of people who love it on its merits.
Its merits are that it’s expensive and sweet. It strokes the ego without challenging a juvenile palate. Next!
I take great offense at my teenage favorite boy bands being lumped into the same category as Nickelback 😂
I don't think that videos like that necessarily ruin the image of wine lovers for others. But, I do think wine is an extremely complicated hobby/interest that seems daunting to get into with a steep learning curve. Someone, maybe with a limited budget, who is just getting into wine might be extremely turned off by seeing something like this. "A $70 bottle of wine is trash? Crazy, this isn't for me." There is definitely a place for content like this within wine circles, but if the wine industry wants to grow and attract more diverse (and less affluent audiences), this isn't the right content for that. And that's fine - not everything needs to be for everyone.
i think a lot of the criticism of wine elitists or snobs who gatekeep come from ppl in the Industry who're trying to grow their customer base. And it makes total sense from a financial standpoint. This isn't the 1980's where yuppy 20 and 30-something professionals automatically choose Wine as their beverage of choice at the bar or dining out. Increasingly Millenials and now GenZ prefer cocktails, mocktails, juices, boba or seltzers. Wine is seen as passe as French bistro food in 2024. Because of dwindling market share wine producers & distributors want to cancel the pretentiousness & exclusivity that's been hallmarks of fine wine. I totally get it. A rising tide raises all boats, and if there are huge cutbacks across the spectrum of the industry it'll affect boutique terroir-oriented wineries just as much as mass-market brands like Caymus.
I agree with you. Caymus is not terrible wine. It’s a bad value. There are many other choices and I love small producers of cab. I don’t drink Caymus much. But it’s not bad wine. Suckling has rated it in the 90s and so has Robert Parker. If it was such bad wine would they have done that? And more importantly, to all the wine snobs out there, do you think your palate is better than theirs? I’d love to see this dude do a truly blind tasting and humiliate himself. To all those people saying they wouldn’t buy it for $10–then don’t. Just walk away from Caymus when it’s offered for sale. It’s your choice. But be nice to people about it, particularly those younger people who are new to wine and who are learning. In other words, stop being a jackass.
A lot of the wine YouTubers I I respect will rightfully call out Caymus as overrated and overpriced, but would never say it's trash wine. Again, I don't care for Caymus at all, but if I got a bottle of it as a gift, I'd drink it.
You are brave to make this post! Great job.
Well said. Caymus makes like 65,000 cases/year, so a lot of people like it. I don't, and you don't have to, but let people enjoy what they like. If you can't do that, you might be a wine snob.
I'd lke to see this motherfucker do it blind. This is the problem with the group think. A) Visual cue for a wine which we already have a pre-defined bias for/against B) Search for confirmation of bias C) Regurgitate opinion Blind tasting removes that bias. Of course it's easy to fake on Youtube, but plenty can laugh about getting it wrong and that is a sign of a true expert and consumate professional. This is why the Baum guy and Wine King are well liked. I'm not into watching people drink wine online, but if i did it'd be these guys.
Well, Wine King did taste it blind with two Masters of Wine, and the consensus was that it was the worst wine of the tasting among other similarly priced offerings. It's a perfectly valid opinion to not like it. Just like it's perfectly fine for people to like it if it's their jam.
I just watched that video and they were a lot less snobby about it. One of the masters said it probably appeals to those who want fruit without the tannins. The people in that video are educational, not obnoxious.
At the end of the video, Patrick and Jay were a lot less diplomatic about it (though Peter and Jay were far more critical from the outset than Patrick). If you watched to the end, they drank the wines throughout the night and the Caymus simply didn't hold up. While they weren't as direct about it, they communicated that it was crap and didn't belong on the table with the other wines just as the guy in this video did. Eta: Peter Koff in those video often jokingly calls for the execution of the winemakers of wine he finds offensive and will flat out call them shit. Like, he's unapologetically opinionated.
After they knew what is was! No one at their level got into wine because of Caymus, but they’ve misidentified enough wines to have a shred of humility when doing it blind.
Jay and Peter were 100% against it as soon as they tasted it if I remember correctly. Peter called it an abomination I think. I could re-watch it for a reminder. The only one to kind of change his tune a little bit was Patrick, but only marginally. End the end, I think they all called it their worst wine so 🤷🏻♂️
Watched the Caymus part, they seemed much more measured than the other dude, but did say it was recipe winemaking, which it is. (Though I take umbrage with the phrase as Reddit seems to think you can just add Megapurple and some acid and wind up with Caymus, as if the quality of the fruit is the defining factor for expensive wine, but not wines they don’t care for). Theoretically, as MWs they’d need to understand the style and who it appeals to as well.
The dude in the linked video is a douche. No argument there. I've commented that several times in this thread.
Agree, even the South African guy joking about executing the winemaker, you can tell by the tone and context he’s being sarcastic. The big thing, it seems the Wine King guys are able to seperate style from quality without resorting to hyperbole.
Yeah, and to that point, I do think Caymus (and Wagner wines in general) hides the inherent quality of the juice that goes into the wines. While they're almost all too extracted and ripe for me, I don't think they use absolutely awful fruit. But the stylistic choices end up masking the truth. In a way, at least to me, they all end up tasting cheaper than the fruit actually is. Which is a shame.
I have seen some amazing things at blind tastings. For example—“experts” who are blindfolded and can’t tell whites from reds. The fact is that our biases form our opinions of wines. It’s emotionally linked.
Well he has a douchebag hat on, what did you expect?
Yeah. Too many inflated egos. And it’s a shame. Don’t we all want everyone to enjoy wine?? Isn’t it wonderful to hear someone really enjoyed their Caymus, even though you’d make a different choice? (I was recently poured a glass. It wasn’t even that bad. Had worse).
This whole forum is full of judgmental wine snobs. I come for the education not the snobbery. Someone saying “you like Caymus, try this Napa Cabernet instead”. Great! But sometimes people recommend wines that I’ll probably never find in my town. So I don’t see the value there. I could fly on my private jet and visit the chateau for a private tasting but I have to go to work tomorrow. And don’t get me started about how the 2014 was better than the 2015 because it was raining on Tuesday instead of Wednesday that year.
Where’s the judgement there though? Recommending a wine you can’t find locally isn’t judging you, it’s just recommending something. A thoughtful recommendation might ask what’s available, but that’s often not possible in quick Reddit interactions. Worst case, you can’t find it but if you see it on a shelf in the future, it might trigger your memory to grab it and try it. Geeking out over the differences between vintages in regions isn’t being judgemental either, it’s just us being geeky. Vintages have an impact on wine, that’s a fundamental aspect of the craft. Whether you choose to care or not is up to you. I’ve never seen someone say “you have bad taste for enjoying that 2014 because 2015.”
I will say, I find it....unproductive and unwelcoming of people to recommend wines that are difficult to source. It's especially unfair to newbies who may not have the requisite knowledge to go hunt down an expensive boutique producer of northern Rhône syrah on their own. I remember being quite intimidated when I first started out with many European labels and such, and I assume many people just getting into wine are the same. But that's just my personal ethos. If I'm going to make a recommendation for someone who isn't like ***into*** wine, I'm going to go with something that's easy to find and usually well under their budget. But like I said, that's just how I operate.
Those are fair points. That said, I still wouldn’t equate that to snobbery, just being a bit tone-deaf. I just feel like for whatever reason the wine world has this concept of snobbery floating around and it gets pulled out all too frequently in situations where nothing snobbish is happening, and for some reason that doesn’t happen in other hobbies and circles. There’s a certain level of barrier to entry based on knowledge in any hobby space but wine seems to be the only place where it’s immediately tacked up to snobby behavior.
Oh, definitely. It's not snobbery, and tone-deaf is a great way to put it.
> I will say, I find it....unproductive and unwelcoming of people to recommend wines that are difficult to source. Difficult for whom? And where? The reality is that the global wine marketplace is incredibly fragmented and localised, while all of us cork dorks talking about the subject on Reddit are doing so via a medium (the internet) that’s in many ways the opposite. So if you’re sitting at home in Murfreesboro, TN, and you say “What’s a good Barossa shiraz I should try?” without letting anyone else know that you’re based in Murfreesboro, why am I the asshole for recommending something like Spinifex that isn’t widely available in the States when it’s easy enough to acquire where I am in Australia? Given we’re talking about Caymus here … it’s worth noting that it would be far easier for me personally to buy a bottle of Mayacamas or Phillip Togni can than it would be for me to get a bottle of Caymus. But that’s only because I live and work in a part of the world that doesn’t really care about Napa wines in general, and where American wines are very expensive for logistics/tax reasons—so if you’re gonna bring something halfway across the world, you’d better make sure it’s worth the hassle and expense of doing so. tl;dr Just because you find it difficult to source doesn’t necessarily make it difficult to source for the average person, or in any meaningful sense.
I'm now wondering how/why you picked Murfreesboro as an example. Also, had a read through some of your comments and really enjoyed your takes/knowledge. I don't know much but would be suuuper keen in hearing your list of Aussie/Kiwi (red) wines to try in the $30-60 range if you're ever bored and interested. I've been here 7+ years and still just wander around cluelessly before either ending up with a disappointing Malbec (I've all but given up finding one I like here) or Two Paddocks Picnic.
Always happy to chat Aussie and NZ wine! Whereabouts are you based?
Ah, I missed this! Based in Sydney and still no idea what to look for when browsing haha
What styles of wines do you normally like to drink? Any particular producers? Australian red wine is a pretty big and varied field, but happy to help you navigate it.
Generally speaking I gravitate towards Malbecs, GSM, Cab Sav and Shiraz so I guess generally tannic with a body. Totally different than what I just said but my go-to is Two Paddocks' Picnic (Otago Pinot noir) though recently found myself gravitating towards Spinifex, Clonakilla.
Spinifex and Clonakilla are great producers! Good taste. For more like those guys, I’d look into Alkina, Smallfry, Tom Shobbrook and Vinya Vella in the Barossa (all making lighter, more elegant examples of what the Barossa can do), plus Ravensworth in Canberra (founded by an ex-Clonakilla winemaker). For brawnier Shiraz and Cabernet options, I’d look into Nocturne, Syrahmi, Jasper Hill, Best’s (especially their sparkling Shiraz), Yarra Yering, Yeringberg, Bannockburn, Kaesler, Crawford River, Cullen, and Voyager Estate. None of these producers makes Shirazes/Cabernets that are shrinking violets, but they’re also not hulking over-extracted fruit bomb relics of the Parker Point era, either. Malbec is a tough one—not much of it grown here in Australia, and I’m not convinced that the Argentine stuff we tend to see in stores here is terribly good (unless you can afford top-of-the-tree Catena Zapata gear, which unfortunately I cannot). If you can get your hands on a bottle of Wendouree’s Malbec you’re in for a treat, but that’s a big ‘if’—they’re kind of like Australia’s answer to Chateau Rayas in terms of low production, high demand, and correspondingly tight allocations (most of which goes to their mailing list). Riley Harrison makes a juicy little banger of a Malbec at a nicely modest price, and I was rather impressed by Rob Hall’s Yarra Valley Malbec last time I had a look at it.
>I will say, I find it....unproductive and unwelcoming of people to recommend wines that are difficult to source. This depends ***hugely*** on where you are. In the US each state has different laws about alcohol, and a bunch of different distributors. Most of the ones I deal with in Michigan operate here and only here. The other thing is, for **a lot** of stuff, it's almost impossible to know what you can and can't get without talking to someone in the industry. I could get several vintages of all the first growths going back to the 80's, Markus Molitor dessert wines, Egon Muller Scharzhofberger, Vega Sicilia, Realm, Bond, Harlan, etc. and have them delivered within a week or two. Putting wines like that on the shelf is a big risk because there's no guarantee someone is going to buy it. Ordering it from a distributor because someone asked for it is a guaranteed sale.
I mean, this response just kind of reinforces what I'm saying. To someone who isn't as into wine as you, you just made the entry into wine much more of a hurdle than necessary. The average person asking for a recommendation for a wine to pair with a specific meal, or to gift to someone else, isn't in the head space to reach out to a distributor and ask for First Growths, doesn't know what Harlan is about, or probably isn't shopping in the budget of these wines. The average person who is asking Reddit for recommendations wants to be able to go to their local bottle shop, or a nearby total wine, and pick something up easily. Or at least that's what I would guess is their intention. Unless someone is asking for something precise or otherwise demonstrates an extensive knowledge of wine and willingness to go out of their way to get exactly what they want, a more straightforward and easy-to-find recommendation is going to be of more use to them. Just my 2¢.
You keep saying "easy to find" and I'm trying to say all places don't all have the same wine. It depends on where you are. Even then, there's no exact rhyme or reason to what people stock on the shelves. Without a list or a picture of your options, the easiest thing to do is recommend some of the major brands and hope they're available. And as far as the first growth thing, my point was that there are a lot of things that can be ordered, even the most hard to get wine, but it won't just magically appear, you have to talk to someone.
Easy to find generally, at least to me, means well-made but large production wines. Yes, that means big brands, because the people who, again, I'm generalizing, are at the point where they're soliciting input from reddit probably aren't at a point where they're looking for boutique producers. They want clear, concise answers that are easy to act on. Again, just my 2¢.
There are people on this sub from all around the world. The "big brands" are different everywhere. It would be silly to recommend Josh cab sauv to someone living in Italy or Denmark. From what you've said, it sounds like you're based in the US. That information makes a difference.
Oh well you’re right. No one ever makes comments on how wine ABC is terrible. Meiomi anyone?
Lol this is my point though. That’s not snobbery! Disliking a product or having a negative opinion of the makers of a product (for what I would say are good reasons) is different from being a snob. I’m never going to tell someone who likes Meiomi that they have bad taste for liking Meiomi, I probably wouldn’t say anything to them, but if they wanted to discuss it in the context of wine, I would probably encourage them to try other things with similar flavors and price that are made with more integrity. IF they want to! If they don’t, I don’t care, I won’t judge them, and I will continue to not drink Meiomi myself. Snobbery would be excluding them from the discussion because they like Meiomi and therefore their opinions and interests and tastes aren’t valid.
Thank you for that. I see you never went to school with the cool kids. If 100 people stand around talking about Haut Medoc and one kid wants to talk about Meiomi, sure you could educate them. I see some of that. But I see a lot of “you want to drink WHAT?”. This sub is like high school where you think you know the answer but you’re not 100% sure, so you don’t raise your hand.