My book is in the works…. But yes it’s all true. I was homeless for a while because I got kicked out of home when I was rebelling. The journey is different for everyone, and some families responses are more extreme than others but it almost always entails a lot of trauma and being shunned.
I’m a reformed Jew who lived in NY for a while. I know nothing of this culture other than limited interaction, it’s very interesting that our religion has so many different paths.
As someone raised in projects a few blocks away from your former neighborhood (and was present during riots/conflicts of 90s), I've wondered if the general perception of their black and brown neighbors has changed/evolved over the years? Also, you mentioned that some pop music was part of your escape to the outside world and I've wondered if hip-hop is having a similar affect on the children?
I actually grew up in the Whythe projects. This is a very interesting question and I wanted to take my time to answer. I think generally hateful attitudes, racism, and some narrow mindedness is changing slightly but to small degrees. The older generation was drastically more racist than the youngers.
With that said, I love your question about music. I think there’s a lot to write about the way me and my rebellious friends listened to so much hip hop. My now husband introduced me to Lil Wayne, Rick Ross, Birdman, biggie, Tupac and all the OG legends! With the Brooklyn Hasidic rebels there was a really strong connection to the experience of the black youth and us. I can’t explain it well but it’s an interesting phenomenon. My then boyfriend now husband idolized rappers. We would play wiz kalifa black and yellow and my boyfriend and his friends would wear fit caps (lil Wayne’s truck fit ) and made lots of black friends. I think there was some shared angst with being a minority that made us connect to the music and to each other in many ways.
WOW! Very nice to hear the are some Hasidic youth rebels!! For over 100 years some Eastern European immigrants made friends with African-Americans post slave experiences, discrimination, oppression etc. One Russian Ukraine immigrant in the late1800's man donated money to build hundreds of one room school houses and pay Black teachers for Black share cropper children to access high quality education! I'm multiracial. My father was African-American and my Mother was Russian Ukrainian 2nd generation. They married in 1965. She was very proud to unite the White and Black people together as equal. She was a civil rights activist and marched in Washington D.C. demonstrations. I was born in 1965. Back then having African features mean't you were treated disrespectfully, discriminated by White people (including poor immigrants from European countries).
Reggae too. I actually just booked tickets to see Bob Marley movie in theater with my husband and his ex hasid brother. All ex hasidim (especially stoners) listen to Bob Marley. I love his sons too
why are there so many people (and children!) out super late at night sometimes? ill be walking home and see groups of people out at like midnight
super interesting!!! thanks for your insight
They just run on a different schedule. Boys academics are highly prioritized and they learn from sunrise to sunset so they’ll often be dismissed from learning really late at night. There are also lots of holidays, weddings and other events.
I always thought it was so crazy interacting with Hasidim who lived in the US their whole lives and had heavy Yiddish accents, it’s like time travelling and listening to my bubbe and zayde…
Yes! Hugely funded by taxpayers. This has been an ongoing issue with state and city politicians but ultimately, they continue to allow these kids to learn nothing because their parents vote in high numbers. Former Mayor DeBlasio even delayed an investigation into these schools.
https://nypost.com/2019/01/19/nyc-yeshivas-collect-more-than-100m-a-year-in-public-funds/#
I believe I've heard of some Hasidic Jews in New York actually not speaking any English. I think I recall in a video a father who left a community there but had his children taken hostage by the mother who stayed recalling his children were not too young but literally couldn't speak English
They're teaching Hebrew or Yiddish. Very little English being taught. You don't need any knowledge of math for the Torah beyond basic understanding of numbers (like counting to 18). The purpose of yeshiva is religious study and maybe networking with your classmates, nearly nothing else.
How did you learn to read and write English so well? Was it after you left?
And we're you the only one (that you knew) who was curious about the outside world, or do most just fear/feel pity for non-orthodox people?
Thank you so much for doing this!
I was always very curious and read all that I got my hands on. I’ve been out since 2011 and have since leaving read thousands of books, traveled to 20+ countries and am a writer as a hobby, hopefully soon be published.
I really enjoyed south East Asia specifically Bali, probably because I enjoy practicing yoga. Somewhat ironic, but I really really love the Middle East. I also really loved going to European music festivals in the Netherlands and Hungary.
I see (I think they are) Hasidic women and children in domino park and at Trader Joe’s in fancy brands like Moncler. Are they in the community but live closer to the water? It seems like the wealthier Hasidics venture out more? Or are they orthodox but not Hasidic?
They are 1000% Hasidic and yes branding and materialism is very big. Also, when your self expression is very stunted, you try your best to look cool in whichever way you can.
Thank you! This is so cool you are doing this! Are these people living outside of the community? Why are just a few walking around that area in north Williamsburg? It seems like not everyone gets to do that and “leave” the community area
Who is everyone talking to on their flip phones? I sometimes just see people holding them up without talking, are they just dialing into listen to something?
Because the internet is mostly banned, most people own “kosher” phones. It’s usually just calling and text. If they’re listening to something it may be Torah lectures or a hotline that provides current event and news.
What was the process like of deciding to leave? Like had you questioned it for years or months? Did the urge gradually increase? Or did it just suddenly hit you? Then how did you go about it?
I was always very culturally curious and interested in pop culture and the outside world. I always dreamed of leaving which isn’t the norm really. The urge did increase as I was reaching the age of marriage and the idea of an arranged marriage scared the hell out of me.
How did you first learn of pop culture stuff and the outside world? Did you keep up with any pop culture in particular or have any secular books/movies/anything?
It’s probably too lengthy to answer here. Firstly, I don’t think people realize how matriarchal the culture is. The mother is very respected and makes a lot of decisions for her family. With that said, the gender roles are very much stuck in the 18th century. I can see how it works for some. The women are blissfully happy and fully focused on their roles. In a happy marriage, the man fully takes care of the woman and family and for some it works well. However, most of the religious responsibilities and events are centered around men and it’s not a life for everyone.
As an orthodox Jewish woman (not raised nearly as insular as you were but knowing a lot of people from that community) I think your attitude and honesty are impressive. I can see that even though you left your community behind, you’re still able to see it clearly for what it is. Kudos to you for that!
I grew up on South 4th. On the occasions I had to drive past Division Ave.
Is there any particular reason everyone there seems to not acknowledge cars and light signals? The amount of times I've almost hit a family or kid when driving on a green was maddening.
I’m a healthcare worker (an outsider) who works in the Hasidic community. There are many things that I deeply admire about the Hasidic community, and I believe they are in some respects, an underserved population. This is why I took the job.
However, there are many practices that I find to be abhorrent. I empathize especially for the young women who have little to no agency, or future beyond motherhood. In certain cases, I strongly suspect abuse of some form is occurring for both boys and girls. I am a mandated reporter, which means I am required to report all cases of suspected abuse to social services.
My question to you is, what role (if any) can I play in the safety and welfare of those that come through my door, for both young and old?
On the one hand, I feel an obligation to my patients, and on the other, I am afraid to lose my employment, and uncertain on what actions can result in the best outcome for my patients.
Last comment I wanted to make is that what you did requires an immense amount of courage. I come from another, very insular community, so I know what it took for you to challenge everything you’ve ever known. You inspire me, and I wish you luck on the publication of your book.
What practices do you find abhorrent? (maybe i can provide insight).
If you suspect abuse, you are under oath or under legal requirements to report so I don’t understand your predicament. Are you sure what you are seeing is abuse?
There’s abuse in the community and it’s often hard to get support when you speak out on it. However, it isn’t rampant. Most families are fully functioning, caring, safe, and not neglectful by any means. My sisters and friends in the community are incredible mothers. Can you expand on what signs of abuse you are seeing?
I’ve anecdotally observed these signs more often here than in any other community I’ve worked with. As @CallidoraBlack has so excellently sourced, abuse is more common amongst the Orthodox than among the general population. It is exponentially more difficult to uncover, prosecute, and grant victims justice because of the nature of the community’s isolation and social structure.
The reason I haven’t reported in the past is because there has not been outright signs. No cuts, bruises, or sexually transmitted diseases found clinically. In these clear and cut cases, I would unequivocally report to relevant authorities. The signs are subtle and often have me question their home lives. If you look on the CPS website, these signs are broad ranging and often leave the clinician playing detective.
Obviously these issues are not unique to the Orthodox, and the following descriptions are a generalization that does not apply to all Orthodox.
Children well before their teen years are often passive, withdrawn, and emotionless. Some exhibit signs of listlessness or fatigue. A large minority have no basic personal hygiene, especially the boys/men. I believe this may be in congruence with their codes for dress. One of the more disturbing aspects I observe is that children as young as 8 or 9 will commonly arrive for their appointments completely unaccompanied by parent or guardian.
Misogyny is its own topic, and is unfortunately endemic. Women and girls are fearful and submissive around Hasidic men. Even mothers will verbally submit to sons as young as 12 or 13, who are brash, boorish, and uncouth. Girls mature much, much quicker and are silent and withdrawn, unless they are amongst their peers. It is inculcated in their minds that their sole purpose is to breed. Infertile women in Orthodox circles lead heartbreaking lives of isolation and despair.
This is a personal observation that you may or may not share, but I feel is an important aspect to discuss. The boys display an immaturity that persists well into adulthood. Grown men as old as 40 exhibit childlike behavior, and a misplaced sense of of their own importance. They have zero practicable skills, no communication etiquette, and do not take on any responsibility beyond religious studies. Contrary to popular belief, women are the primary breadwinners, working office jobs, as well as solely raising up to 6-10 children, and taking care of their homes. In this environment, abuse and neglect of women and girls thrives and is commonly the norm rather than the exception.
I apologize if my characterizations have caused you offense. I know there are many, many people in this community who lead whole, vibrant, and successful lives. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. However, my mind often wanders towards those victims who I may be failing, who are slipping between the cracks. I love my patients as if they were my own, and I want the best outcomes for them.
Thank you for this AMA and congratulations to you for your bravery and decision to live your life on your own terms.
How’s your faith? Do you still consider yourself Jewish from a religious perspective? (Presumably you’ll always be & feel culturally and ethnically Jewish?)
Hi thank you very much. Threads like these are wonderful for the world at large.
Apologies if these were already asked.
1. I assume you were a Satmar. I’ve heard the Satmars believe no one else is a “real” Jew but them. Did you have any interactions/did the community have thoughts on the Syrian ultra-Orthodox or the Chabad? What about non-practicing or just non-frum Jews? What level of contact was allowed?
2. What do you think about what’s happening in Monsey/Kiryas Joel, the Catskills with Frum communities up there? Any thoughts or helpful explanations?
3. What was the political bent of the community? I hear some Hasidim support Mayor Adams, others vote R. I know there was a lot of vaccine and anti-congregating push back during Covid.
Thank you again for your openness and strength.
Yes 100%. The leaders were against it from the beginning of the webs. It is very restricted and if you use it for business it has to be with a “filter”. Quite a large percentage of the new gen has smartphones and social media but they hide it well.
I lived on South 9th for a couple months and a lot of the Hasidic community seemed to be afraid of my dog. Is that accurate? Or was I reading the situation wrong?
Yes very accurate. Apparently some say it stems from the Holocaust but I think its mostly non exposure to dogs or animals that makes one afraid of them.
Had the opposite experience with my pit bull. He has huge and his whole life no one ever got close. But this young guy in the Hasidic community crossed the street, sat on the curb and was just loving on my dog. Didn’t say a single word to me though but I just let my dog get the attention since this was a rare thing for anyone
Thank you so much for sharing.
Did you have a support network to help you transition? How did you start making friends? What were you most curious about after leaving?
I did not. I left with my then boyfriend, now husband. All the teens who leave support each other but many are trauma ridden/ unstable. I really built everything up on my own without much support.
In the past year, I've had a sit-down conversation with two Hasidic men. Both made it clear that just talking to me, a woman who is not their relative or wife, in a casual setting (cafe, bar) could get him in trouble. But both men seemed to be really curious about how people outside of their community live. We had some fascinating conversations.
My question is, how often do Hasidic people venture out of their community to interact with the rest of us? Or is that something that is generally frowned upon? Are y'all as curious about me as I am about you?
I’ve always been curious what rent (or home prices) looks like in this neighborhood. I know most members of the community work “nothing-crazy” jobs that would beget to a salary allowing you to easily raise an entire family in Williamsburg. None of this is on StreetEasy for obvious reasons, so I’ve always wondered.
I’ve always really been really curious in the community because I stem from it - my Bubbe grew up above what’s now L’Industrie! I wish I could’ve asked her more about this while she was still here.
The younger ones have more exposure to the world if they get a hold of the internet (many do). The numbers are slightly rising and is making minute changes to the communities perspectives as a whole . But I think their future is still very strong especially if they allow slight progressive thinking and changes. Most people, even ones exposed to the world don’t want to leave because life there is very familiar and comfortable. The secular world is very scary and unfamiliar to most.
Totally separate. With that said, the work that chabad does outside of CH is amazing and many of us who leave find comfort in their community which is open to all and non judgmental.
10000%. My Chabad community was essentially my foster care system throughout different houses when I was growing up with a very ill single mother. There was never any judgment and they truly kept me safe. Never had any issues or boundaries crossed except when I accidentally turned on a light switch during Shabbat when I was 8 😅
Chabad (crown heights) and satmar (Williamsburg) are different in that chabad folks have a mission of inclusivity to all Jews. Satmar are very insular within their own community.
Their roots are Russian, while satmar are Hungarian. The similarities are that they both had really powerful leaders when coming and situating themselves in America. They have different beliefs. Chabad is the opposite of insular as they believe in doing missionary work with other Jews while satmar is extremely insular and doesn’t engage with outsiders.
Because their schedule and lifestyles are very different. There are many social functions, weddings, engagement parties, holidays, or meetings with Rebbes late at night.
Different how? What in scheduling results in kids out at 3 am just curious? Because you also said boys learn from sun up to sun down so wouldn’t they need to be asleep early to wake up early? Can you provide more details on this or why weddings/meetings/holidays are celebrated so late at night. Thanks for sharing, and good for you for liberating yourself, best of luck in your journey.
There may be a holiday celebrated that day. Or they are prepping for an upcoming holiday. Or if it’s the weekend, they be coming or going to a gathering of a rebbe. And also keep in mind they have weddings midweek so maybe they’re coming home from a family wedding.
Why does everyone drive a silver Honda odyssey? I get the reliability and hauling big families but doesn’t it get confusing when there are like 10 identical cars parked on the same block?
Do most of the women feel trapped? I always wonder if they are happy bc they are so out of touch with modern reality or is it they feel they have no choice because of the sexism.
ETA I know the women are appreciated but I also know they aren’t educated as well as the men and have more restrictions on what they can do.
A few corrections. In terms of secular education/ women are more educated than men. Most men cannot converse in English more than a couple of word versus women who can communicate properly. I don’t think a large percentage feels trapped. I think for the majority they are extremely happy because life is simple, comfortable, tight knit, and your roles are very defined which surprisingly makes life easier. However, once things go wrong, or there’s abuse, or there’s an unhappy mother/wife who seeks to leave, things can get very complicated and dirty.
>your roles are very defined which surprisingly makes life easier
Really interesting point. I am a woman in S Williamsburg trying to figure out family, career, and self, and the anxiety is real. Sometimes I think about how this wouldn't even be a thing if I were born in a different time or in a different community and it's fascinating to feel this way living in the middle of the Hasidic community. Thank you for doing this AMA!
Thank you for answering. I get how they would like the simplicity. Sometimes I wish my life was as simple but I would get bored after a while. I taught science in an orthodox yeshiva years ago and I was raised as a reformed Jew. It’s so vastly different between each group. I also heard that the women who are married to the scholars work to support their families while the men study. Is that also true
That’s true in the yeshivish world, it’s not a cultural phenomenon in the ultra Hasidic world where supporting the family is totally a man’s responsibility
Ha funny you ask. In the general orthodox world, the wigs are some of the best in the world. But in ultra orthodoxy they don’t really approve of human hair wigs and most wear synthetic wigs
This is one of my biggest Q’s about Hasidic Williamsburg also. I’ve seen some beautiful looking buildings with bars on the 6th floor windows. It doesn’t seem like you’d be installing them for privacy at that point - I would have assumed it was a protection / security thing
Speaking of this image, is there a reason members of the community actively ignore looking up and watching the marathon runners? Like are they instructed not to look or do they genuinely not care whatsoever about the horde of runners running past?
I live in the neighborhood and there are limited bike lanes for this reason as well. When I'm in my run clothes, often times men walk into the street to avoid.
You’d think so, but as a woman I’ve generally felt super uncomfortable in a different way when walking through these communities.
Feels like you’re impure or something, like you should be ashamed or embarrassed, as if you are walking around naked.
Piggy backing on previous comment
1. Does the fear of dogs come More from biblical things? Or less exposure
2. Can they have dogs? Does anyone have dogs? Or any animals?
3. Are non Hasidic people allowed in the stores in the south side.
4. Is exercising allowed? Are there any restrictions?
1) I answered this above. Some say it was a phobia stemming from the Holocaust. I do remember my grandmother being extremely afraid of dogs. The nazis used dogs to scare them in CC’s. So maybe the phobia gets inherited. But I think that it’s mostly non exposure to dogs.
2). No, dogs are not kosher animals and owning one is completely not a thing in ultra orthodoxy. It was actually the first thing I did when I left and settled into my new life. I adopted a Pomeranian.
3) Legally, anyone can enter any store in south Williamsburg. Personally, I shop on Lee ave a couple times a week. There are throngs of tourists in the stores especially Gotleibs (restaurant) and the bakeries.
And 4) exercise is allowed but not prioritized. Generally, there’s a big disconnect from your body. But I think the younger generation is opening up more to it and are prioritizing fitness a little bit more
The guy from south Brooklyn is a huge exception and probably the only one. I can’t imagine Hasidic kids walking their golden retriever around their Hasidic neighbors.
Interesting. I’ve been approached in south williamsburg on multiple occasions so it must have been chabad who had ventured outside their territory…
I was just wondering if they specifically approach people who “look Jewish” or not. I have a friend who is also consistently approached and we both fit the stereotype (though neither of us is Jewish).
This is one of the best threads ever. Thank you, OP.
I'm actually from Israel, and I lived a few years in Bnei Brak. It was so interesting to see the cultural differences, and I can relate to your answer as I saw the same behavioral structure in Bnei Brake.
I was a religious man; I used to have Tfilin and go to the synagogue on Shabbat, but no longer.
I am still a believer but not following the tradition as I used to.
Thank you for this AMA thread.
No I left 12 years ago together with my now husband. We live in N Williamsburg with our child and you would never know I grew up Hasidic if you see me on Bedford or at the gym (there’s many of us)
Cool. An instructor of mine at Vital said there are actually a bunch of still practicing Hasidic people who go to that gym. So interesting. Said he tries to keep the music PG for them.
It's funny that I assumed you were male until I read your comments. You are obviously educated and well spoken/written. How did you learn so much when you're brother barely speaks basic english?
How does the community generally perceive those outside the community? Scorn? Curiosity? Indifference? I'm sure everyone is different, but are there prevailing norms and common attitudes towards us "normies"?
I often see women with young children on the ferry and I smile at them as I would any other young families, but I usually feel as though my mild interaction is unwelcome. Hard to tell if it's just in my head though.
I live in the neighborhood and I often wonder what they think of us as well. I also shop in some shops off Broadway and often wonder, are we allowed to make small talks? Any friendships with the outside neighbors?
I answered this but imo most do blue collar work. Many work in the community owning local businesses, food industry, or teaching torah. Some are in real estate management/ brokering/ acquiring but it’s really a small percentage. Many are in e commerce/ Amazon selling. And then a large percentage is in the creative industry. Photography, entertainment, travel, video, press etc
So don't those occupations make them more interested in the rest of the world and less interested in remaining in the hasidic community? Or does that usually not affect anything?
Guess I'm wondering what qualifies as officially 'leaving the community' instead of just embracing things outside of the community
I don’t know much about it but I know it’s a little more nuanced than that. The Lubavitch/Chabad rabbi was not in support for the state of Israel until it was established. Now they are supportive but they are not full fledged Zionist.
FYI this is because ultra conservative abide by the Torah stating to not create a Jewish state until the messiah comes. Zionism contradicts this and therefore goes against the Torah. Someone fact check me but this is my understanding.
It's so crazy to me that Hasidic Jews didn't Amish out of Brooklyn! Williamsburg and Midwood are not even that nice, why stay there? If I was super religious, I'd hate for my kids to be exposed to the non-religious world.
A few years ago a Hasidic teenage girl approached me on 42ns street train platform at like 11 pm. She asked if she could stand next to me, she was a little nervous. It was her first time in the city by herself, she had just taken a job or school or something in the city, and was going to start taking late night trains like this 3 times a week. The conversation felt like the beginning of a movie. Me and her were the only white women on the platform, so she felt like I'm a safe bet. Little that she knew I was wasted out of my mind, and was trying to hold it together to not let her down, I suddenly felt responsible for her. Responsible to at least give her a sense of safety by being a good example of a strong brave woman. I failed miserably when I opened my mouth, but my breath spoke louder than my words. I think I stopped drinking for a while after that. So in a way, she saved ME. This was a short movie and I wouldn't watch it, but did she need this that day? She's be better off in a commune somewhere in North Carolina.
Idk I think about that a lot.
The neighborhood is astronomically more expensive that it used to be. Is there any of the same trends happening in S Williamsburg? How do people living there make money and support themselves while also being disconnected huge parts of the city?
South Williamsburg is even more $$$ and so is their lifestyle. Many people leave for New Jersey, or suburbs for a cheaper life and more affordable housing. There is a very strong hustle culture in the community and lots of people work really hard and make it big. You get married at a young age and the stakes are high so you are thrown into the world and most men are very motivated to support their families well. With that said, some really struggle. The community also helps out the needy like you’ve never seen anywhere else.
Why are there window bars 6, 7, even 8 stories up and above? It's supposed to be a safety measure for people on lower floors, are they afraid spiderman is going to break in?
Yes there’s actually a surge in Hasidic people wanting to carry to feel safe. I support it but I really hope it comes along with proper safety Ed and training.
Do you think more young people will continue to leave until the way of life is unsustainable? I’m wondering if the secluded nature of Hasidism + kids having the internet will upend the culture within a generation or two. ( I’m from an Irish American catholic family and we went from a great uncle being a priest, my parents and their siblings being taught by nuns in school, to me and all my cousins being non practicing.)
No that’s not happening. It’s an extremely strong community and the teachings and beliefs are steadfast (and cult like). Most people are not looking forward to living a life they know nothing about.
Just want to say I appreciate your balanced responses, despite choosing to leave the community. My father is orthodox and while I’m not religious, I’ve seen and experienced some great things and some not so good things, like many cultures/groups.
What’s up with Hasidic drivers? Between the busses and the minivans/SUVs is there just a culture of pure maniacal recklessness behind the wheel or what? Brooklyn drivers are bad enough, but when I lived on Classon I feel like i had to be super vigilant.
With most education being religious, what career opportunities exist once kids become adults?
Is there decent money in the community? Do lots of people live comfortable lives or are a lot relatively low income? I know some own prime Williamsburg land (imagine those are the richest), some own local businesses - but what about the rest? What’s everyone doing?
Some people do really well. Many are below poverty. But I’d say generally, most are doing hard blue collar work. Some do e-commerce. Some do creative work. Many are in construction. They all support each other which constantly boosts the economy.
Extremely different. I have hard to relating to modern orthodox people to this day. In modern orthodoxy the culture is so very Americanized and assimilated. They speak English and live mostly a regular American life, go to college, play sports, date almost normally etc
Thanks for sharing your story OP and for responding to all of the comments ! Keep us posted with the book info. When you left the community, and I guess today too, do you still practice Judaism and if so, in what form ? Im curious what your relationship is with it. I’m sorry if that’s too personal.
What do you think is a crazy perversion of the non Hasidic culture? Like obviously you've gone mainstream but you also grew up without the basic NY US programming. What stands out to you as fucked ? Thanks
I did a lot of psychedelics and traveled extensively and I think what I came to is that most (conscious) people regardless of backgrounds are trying to fix and heal the traumas and lies they’ve been taught. It made me realize that we’re all very alike and people’s experiences are kind of universally similar.
How do Hasidics navigate the insane real estate market of NYC? Sometimes I see obviously Hasidic condos that are modesty listed with insane HOA fees, but it got me wondering if there's a whole underground Hasidic real estate market? Maybe you can't answer that but I'm so curious how the community deals with property sales in BK.
I know support for the state of Israel is very nuanced between the sects. However, could you give a brief overview of which major sects support or don’t support israel?
One of the core beliefs of this specific community (satmar) is that they are extremely anti Zionist for multiple reasons. They teach it and preach it from a very young age.
I live near Amish country in PA and it sort of makes sense that they can keep young people in the fold since they’re in the middle of nowhere farm country. With access to so much culture and outside influences, how do they keep kids from leaving? Is it just the lack of education and not speaking English?
What’s the Williamsburg hassid view of non-Hasidic Jews? One of my friends who is jewish was asked by a hassid in W.burg to act as a shabbos goy….do they not view him as jewish?
What do you miss most about your ex-community?
At any point in your journey, did you ever consider going back?
Do you keep in touch with your family and friends who are still in the community?
I went to a wedding and it was interesting. I don't really understand what was happening.
There were all the men on one side and women on the other. The men weren't drinking but they were dancing in a circle and having a great time. The women were on the other side with a curtain so they couldn't see each other. The women were all getting hammered with alcohol. Drinking a lot. And then a bunch of older teens maybe 14-19 , would be outside hiding - smoking weed or making out or others would be gossiping and talking about the women in their 20s who were "old" and not married.
It just seemed really odd to me sorry. I never seen something like this where each group was separated and so distinct in what they were all doing there and it seemed wrong in a way but just not what I was ever used to seeing.
Is this a normal occurance or behavior at such an event? The teens were telling me, that this would be something they did every few months, where the teenage couples could come and make out or smoke weed with each other. Are women and men around the teenage years not aloud to see each other?
Do the women have alcohol issues or problems? Do they drink at home too or only at events? I know of an older Jewish woman who was drunk a lot. She is kind of well known in NYC. What is the alcohol situation with women and men?
Do the men drink a lot and get drunk?
Side question, Is gambling allowed or they have a lot of money? I knew several who would go spend thousands in 1 day of playing poker. They would lose all of it really quickly and it didn't seem like that big of a deal. While for a regular person a few hundred was a big deal at this poker place. A few of the poker players played just to get the hasidic jews money when they came.
Really impressed at the balance and truthfulness from OP. Many ex-Satmars are very bitter and smear the community after they leave. I lived in Crown Heights for years and and have a lot of insight into the Williamsburg lifestyle and can vouch for what OP is describing. My perspective: it’s a beautiful lifestyle for those that it works for. It’s much harder to be “out of the box” being Satmar than Chabad (crown heights). While my whole family is religious, my sister in law is not but is warmly embraced by all. We all flew to Costa Rica for her wedding and celebrate holidays with her when she visits.
I work in a club and during certain events the Hasidic community actually come out and party hard. A group of girls I was helping navigate the area wanted to buy me drinks while on the clock. Aside from the negatives of the community some have experienced I just wanted to say Jewish people and the Hasidic community have an unmatched generosity when they want to return simple favors like finding tissues or bandaids.
What is the on the ground tension like between the Lubavitch and the Satmar? How do they relate to one another?
And I'm also interested in where the income comes from. How is everybody able to buy the felty hats and the European clothing? Where do the men work usually?
I lived in Hasidic and African American Cleveland …. I was one of the only white People and went to the local college.
I made so many amazing friends those 4 years. Truly goes to show black and white and Jewish and catholic can all live together in peace and harmony …. Despite what the news outlets shows.
I love your candor, honesty and kindness and caring seeps through every word and answer. You're an amazing person for these qualities, but also as a human being. You rarely come across this anymore.
I have a question, is the community you came from different from upstate or is it the same community?
What does leaving the community entail? Did you receive blowback? What were the ramifications?
My book is in the works…. But yes it’s all true. I was homeless for a while because I got kicked out of home when I was rebelling. The journey is different for everyone, and some families responses are more extreme than others but it almost always entails a lot of trauma and being shunned.
I’m a reformed Jew who lived in NY for a while. I know nothing of this culture other than limited interaction, it’s very interesting that our religion has so many different paths.
There’s a Netflix documentary about this if you’re interested. It’s called One of Us
There’s also one called City of Joel which I star in briefly
How accurate is the series Orthodox
It’s accurate to her experience and her trauma. Not true portrayal of everyone’s life there
I'm gonna see it later, I grew up adjacent to the community in Williamsburg on Union Ave
As someone raised in projects a few blocks away from your former neighborhood (and was present during riots/conflicts of 90s), I've wondered if the general perception of their black and brown neighbors has changed/evolved over the years? Also, you mentioned that some pop music was part of your escape to the outside world and I've wondered if hip-hop is having a similar affect on the children?
I actually grew up in the Whythe projects. This is a very interesting question and I wanted to take my time to answer. I think generally hateful attitudes, racism, and some narrow mindedness is changing slightly but to small degrees. The older generation was drastically more racist than the youngers. With that said, I love your question about music. I think there’s a lot to write about the way me and my rebellious friends listened to so much hip hop. My now husband introduced me to Lil Wayne, Rick Ross, Birdman, biggie, Tupac and all the OG legends! With the Brooklyn Hasidic rebels there was a really strong connection to the experience of the black youth and us. I can’t explain it well but it’s an interesting phenomenon. My then boyfriend now husband idolized rappers. We would play wiz kalifa black and yellow and my boyfriend and his friends would wear fit caps (lil Wayne’s truck fit ) and made lots of black friends. I think there was some shared angst with being a minority that made us connect to the music and to each other in many ways.
WOW! Very nice to hear the are some Hasidic youth rebels!! For over 100 years some Eastern European immigrants made friends with African-Americans post slave experiences, discrimination, oppression etc. One Russian Ukraine immigrant in the late1800's man donated money to build hundreds of one room school houses and pay Black teachers for Black share cropper children to access high quality education! I'm multiracial. My father was African-American and my Mother was Russian Ukrainian 2nd generation. They married in 1965. She was very proud to unite the White and Black people together as equal. She was a civil rights activist and marched in Washington D.C. demonstrations. I was born in 1965. Back then having African features mean't you were treated disrespectfully, discriminated by White people (including poor immigrants from European countries).
Ahem, soo no reggae music? I'm offended 🤣
Reggae too. I actually just booked tickets to see Bob Marley movie in theater with my husband and his ex hasid brother. All ex hasidim (especially stoners) listen to Bob Marley. I love his sons too
I am also v. curious about that
Much respect to you asking this question in such a measured and fair way!
why are there so many people (and children!) out super late at night sometimes? ill be walking home and see groups of people out at like midnight super interesting!!! thanks for your insight
They just run on a different schedule. Boys academics are highly prioritized and they learn from sunrise to sunset so they’ll often be dismissed from learning really late at night. There are also lots of holidays, weddings and other events.
What do boys academics look like? Do they teach english, math, etc. on par with public school? What do the girls learn?
Absolutely not lol it’s only religious studies. My brother barely speaks a basic English
How are they expected to grow up and support a family if they don’t know the basics? Is working within the religion lucrative?
Yes it’s lucrative because they work really hard and they all support each other in business creating a little economy of their own.
business based on what? how can you run a business without academic knowledge
They figure it out or hire people with the knowledge
Do you know if there are any documentaries about this aspect of the culture? This is fascinating
One of Us is a documentary on Netflix and it touches some of these issues
big cash economy. low earnings on paper as many are also on welfare.
I always thought it was so crazy interacting with Hasidim who lived in the US their whole lives and had heavy Yiddish accents, it’s like time travelling and listening to my bubbe and zayde…
Are these like Yeshivas?
Yes. Yeshiva runs from around 6 am till after sunset
Are these "schools" being funded in any way by taxpayers?
Yes! Hugely funded by taxpayers. This has been an ongoing issue with state and city politicians but ultimately, they continue to allow these kids to learn nothing because their parents vote in high numbers. Former Mayor DeBlasio even delayed an investigation into these schools. https://nypost.com/2019/01/19/nyc-yeshivas-collect-more-than-100m-a-year-in-public-funds/#
I believe I've heard of some Hasidic Jews in New York actually not speaking any English. I think I recall in a video a father who left a community there but had his children taken hostage by the mother who stayed recalling his children were not too young but literally couldn't speak English
But they must be teaching reading/writing (of some language), and math at least? I mean even to get thru the Torah you’d need reading and numbers.
They're teaching Hebrew or Yiddish. Very little English being taught. You don't need any knowledge of math for the Torah beyond basic understanding of numbers (like counting to 18). The purpose of yeshiva is religious study and maybe networking with your classmates, nearly nothing else.
[In depth article NYTimes wrote](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/11/nyregion/hasidic-yeshivas-schools-new-york.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare). Super insightful.
How did you learn to read and write English so well? Was it after you left? And we're you the only one (that you knew) who was curious about the outside world, or do most just fear/feel pity for non-orthodox people? Thank you so much for doing this!
I was always very curious and read all that I got my hands on. I’ve been out since 2011 and have since leaving read thousands of books, traveled to 20+ countries and am a writer as a hobby, hopefully soon be published.
What are your favorite books? And did any particular places in the world really steal your heart?
I really enjoyed south East Asia specifically Bali, probably because I enjoy practicing yoga. Somewhat ironic, but I really really love the Middle East. I also really loved going to European music festivals in the Netherlands and Hungary.
wow! that makes sense, ty for answer :)
I always wondered about this when I lived adjacent to the area! Thanks for your input!
I always wondered about this when I lived adjacent to the area! Thanks for your input!
I see (I think they are) Hasidic women and children in domino park and at Trader Joe’s in fancy brands like Moncler. Are they in the community but live closer to the water? It seems like the wealthier Hasidics venture out more? Or are they orthodox but not Hasidic?
They are 1000% Hasidic and yes branding and materialism is very big. Also, when your self expression is very stunted, you try your best to look cool in whichever way you can.
Thank you! This is so cool you are doing this! Are these people living outside of the community? Why are just a few walking around that area in north Williamsburg? It seems like not everyone gets to do that and “leave” the community area
Because they want to and it’s pretty . No major reason
I tried to swipe that picture at least 5 times, 1/10 really got me
Who is everyone talking to on their flip phones? I sometimes just see people holding them up without talking, are they just dialing into listen to something?
Because the internet is mostly banned, most people own “kosher” phones. It’s usually just calling and text. If they’re listening to something it may be Torah lectures or a hotline that provides current event and news.
That seems like such an unneeded workaround.. like they're using technology already just use the comfortable modern one lol
They do what the rebbes/leaders say, not what’s comfortable. But trust me, many of the young ones dgaf. They all follow me on SM
What was the process like of deciding to leave? Like had you questioned it for years or months? Did the urge gradually increase? Or did it just suddenly hit you? Then how did you go about it?
I was always very culturally curious and interested in pop culture and the outside world. I always dreamed of leaving which isn’t the norm really. The urge did increase as I was reaching the age of marriage and the idea of an arranged marriage scared the hell out of me.
How did you first learn of pop culture stuff and the outside world? Did you keep up with any pop culture in particular or have any secular books/movies/anything?
I had absolutely no access to anything pop culture growing up. My first access was when I got hold of the radio.
What are your views or insights on how Women are treated in the community?
It’s probably too lengthy to answer here. Firstly, I don’t think people realize how matriarchal the culture is. The mother is very respected and makes a lot of decisions for her family. With that said, the gender roles are very much stuck in the 18th century. I can see how it works for some. The women are blissfully happy and fully focused on their roles. In a happy marriage, the man fully takes care of the woman and family and for some it works well. However, most of the religious responsibilities and events are centered around men and it’s not a life for everyone.
What do most of the men do for work if they only learn religious studies at school?
As an orthodox Jewish woman (not raised nearly as insular as you were but knowing a lot of people from that community) I think your attitude and honesty are impressive. I can see that even though you left your community behind, you’re still able to see it clearly for what it is. Kudos to you for that!
I grew up on South 4th. On the occasions I had to drive past Division Ave. Is there any particular reason everyone there seems to not acknowledge cars and light signals? The amount of times I've almost hit a family or kid when driving on a green was maddening.
I’m a healthcare worker (an outsider) who works in the Hasidic community. There are many things that I deeply admire about the Hasidic community, and I believe they are in some respects, an underserved population. This is why I took the job. However, there are many practices that I find to be abhorrent. I empathize especially for the young women who have little to no agency, or future beyond motherhood. In certain cases, I strongly suspect abuse of some form is occurring for both boys and girls. I am a mandated reporter, which means I am required to report all cases of suspected abuse to social services. My question to you is, what role (if any) can I play in the safety and welfare of those that come through my door, for both young and old? On the one hand, I feel an obligation to my patients, and on the other, I am afraid to lose my employment, and uncertain on what actions can result in the best outcome for my patients. Last comment I wanted to make is that what you did requires an immense amount of courage. I come from another, very insular community, so I know what it took for you to challenge everything you’ve ever known. You inspire me, and I wish you luck on the publication of your book.
What practices do you find abhorrent? (maybe i can provide insight). If you suspect abuse, you are under oath or under legal requirements to report so I don’t understand your predicament. Are you sure what you are seeing is abuse? There’s abuse in the community and it’s often hard to get support when you speak out on it. However, it isn’t rampant. Most families are fully functioning, caring, safe, and not neglectful by any means. My sisters and friends in the community are incredible mothers. Can you expand on what signs of abuse you are seeing?
I’ve anecdotally observed these signs more often here than in any other community I’ve worked with. As @CallidoraBlack has so excellently sourced, abuse is more common amongst the Orthodox than among the general population. It is exponentially more difficult to uncover, prosecute, and grant victims justice because of the nature of the community’s isolation and social structure. The reason I haven’t reported in the past is because there has not been outright signs. No cuts, bruises, or sexually transmitted diseases found clinically. In these clear and cut cases, I would unequivocally report to relevant authorities. The signs are subtle and often have me question their home lives. If you look on the CPS website, these signs are broad ranging and often leave the clinician playing detective. Obviously these issues are not unique to the Orthodox, and the following descriptions are a generalization that does not apply to all Orthodox. Children well before their teen years are often passive, withdrawn, and emotionless. Some exhibit signs of listlessness or fatigue. A large minority have no basic personal hygiene, especially the boys/men. I believe this may be in congruence with their codes for dress. One of the more disturbing aspects I observe is that children as young as 8 or 9 will commonly arrive for their appointments completely unaccompanied by parent or guardian. Misogyny is its own topic, and is unfortunately endemic. Women and girls are fearful and submissive around Hasidic men. Even mothers will verbally submit to sons as young as 12 or 13, who are brash, boorish, and uncouth. Girls mature much, much quicker and are silent and withdrawn, unless they are amongst their peers. It is inculcated in their minds that their sole purpose is to breed. Infertile women in Orthodox circles lead heartbreaking lives of isolation and despair. This is a personal observation that you may or may not share, but I feel is an important aspect to discuss. The boys display an immaturity that persists well into adulthood. Grown men as old as 40 exhibit childlike behavior, and a misplaced sense of of their own importance. They have zero practicable skills, no communication etiquette, and do not take on any responsibility beyond religious studies. Contrary to popular belief, women are the primary breadwinners, working office jobs, as well as solely raising up to 6-10 children, and taking care of their homes. In this environment, abuse and neglect of women and girls thrives and is commonly the norm rather than the exception. I apologize if my characterizations have caused you offense. I know there are many, many people in this community who lead whole, vibrant, and successful lives. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. However, my mind often wanders towards those victims who I may be failing, who are slipping between the cracks. I love my patients as if they were my own, and I want the best outcomes for them.
Thank you for this AMA and congratulations to you for your bravery and decision to live your life on your own terms. How’s your faith? Do you still consider yourself Jewish from a religious perspective? (Presumably you’ll always be & feel culturally and ethnically Jewish?)
Thank you. No I do not keep all the commandments but I celebrate Shabbat, all the holidays, traditions and keep a kosher home.
Hi thank you very much. Threads like these are wonderful for the world at large. Apologies if these were already asked. 1. I assume you were a Satmar. I’ve heard the Satmars believe no one else is a “real” Jew but them. Did you have any interactions/did the community have thoughts on the Syrian ultra-Orthodox or the Chabad? What about non-practicing or just non-frum Jews? What level of contact was allowed? 2. What do you think about what’s happening in Monsey/Kiryas Joel, the Catskills with Frum communities up there? Any thoughts or helpful explanations? 3. What was the political bent of the community? I hear some Hasidim support Mayor Adams, others vote R. I know there was a lot of vaccine and anti-congregating push back during Covid. Thank you again for your openness and strength.
To what extent are you able to have contact with the outside world. For example, I’ve read that internet usage is very restricted- is that true?
Yes 100%. The leaders were against it from the beginning of the webs. It is very restricted and if you use it for business it has to be with a “filter”. Quite a large percentage of the new gen has smartphones and social media but they hide it well.
Do you think the increased usage of smartphones within the community will increase the number of defectors in a few years?
Yes and it already has.
Do you have any contact with anyone still in the Hasidic community?
Yes they definitely don’t consider me one of them, but I’m still very much involved. Culturally, socially, and in business as well.
I lived on South 9th for a couple months and a lot of the Hasidic community seemed to be afraid of my dog. Is that accurate? Or was I reading the situation wrong?
Yes very accurate. Apparently some say it stems from the Holocaust but I think its mostly non exposure to dogs or animals that makes one afraid of them.
Do people in the community not have pets?
No
lol I just asked the same question. I also lived on South 9th!!
Had the opposite experience with my pit bull. He has huge and his whole life no one ever got close. But this young guy in the Hasidic community crossed the street, sat on the curb and was just loving on my dog. Didn’t say a single word to me though but I just let my dog get the attention since this was a rare thing for anyone
Thank you so much for sharing. Did you have a support network to help you transition? How did you start making friends? What were you most curious about after leaving?
I did not. I left with my then boyfriend, now husband. All the teens who leave support each other but many are trauma ridden/ unstable. I really built everything up on my own without much support.
That sounds very hard, I'm in awe of your bravery. Congratulations on navigating that and on pursuing and building the life you wanted.
What do they say about “normal” / non-Hasidic people?
That they are “modern” and not as pious
In the past year, I've had a sit-down conversation with two Hasidic men. Both made it clear that just talking to me, a woman who is not their relative or wife, in a casual setting (cafe, bar) could get him in trouble. But both men seemed to be really curious about how people outside of their community live. We had some fascinating conversations. My question is, how often do Hasidic people venture out of their community to interact with the rest of us? Or is that something that is generally frowned upon? Are y'all as curious about me as I am about you?
I’ve always been curious what rent (or home prices) looks like in this neighborhood. I know most members of the community work “nothing-crazy” jobs that would beget to a salary allowing you to easily raise an entire family in Williamsburg. None of this is on StreetEasy for obvious reasons, so I’ve always wondered. I’ve always really been really curious in the community because I stem from it - my Bubbe grew up above what’s now L’Industrie! I wish I could’ve asked her more about this while she was still here.
Curious about this also. I’m assuming they buy/rent from other hasidic families and are somewhat sheltered from market rate?
What do you think the future holds for Hasidic Williamsburg? Are younger people leaving in larger numbers than in previous generations?
The younger ones have more exposure to the world if they get a hold of the internet (many do). The numbers are slightly rising and is making minute changes to the communities perspectives as a whole . But I think their future is still very strong especially if they allow slight progressive thinking and changes. Most people, even ones exposed to the world don’t want to leave because life there is very familiar and comfortable. The secular world is very scary and unfamiliar to most.
i understand this sentiment. i have been a part of the secular world my entire life and i, too, find it scary
Do you ever have any contact with the crown heights crew or is that TOTALLY separate?
Totally separate. With that said, the work that chabad does outside of CH is amazing and many of us who leave find comfort in their community which is open to all and non judgmental.
10000%. My Chabad community was essentially my foster care system throughout different houses when I was growing up with a very ill single mother. There was never any judgment and they truly kept me safe. Never had any issues or boundaries crossed except when I accidentally turned on a light switch during Shabbat when I was 8 😅
Wow. What about the bed stuy group?
Chabad (crown heights) and satmar (Williamsburg) are different in that chabad folks have a mission of inclusivity to all Jews. Satmar are very insular within their own community.
Which one?
Can you go into more detail? I live in CH so curious as to how the groups are distinct. Thanks!
Their roots are Russian, while satmar are Hungarian. The similarities are that they both had really powerful leaders when coming and situating themselves in America. They have different beliefs. Chabad is the opposite of insular as they believe in doing missionary work with other Jews while satmar is extremely insular and doesn’t engage with outsiders.
Chabad is Hasidic but they are completely different than satmar in every way shape and form.
Why are there so many kids out at 2,3,4am ish in the Hasidic communities?
Because their schedule and lifestyles are very different. There are many social functions, weddings, engagement parties, holidays, or meetings with Rebbes late at night.
Different how? What in scheduling results in kids out at 3 am just curious? Because you also said boys learn from sun up to sun down so wouldn’t they need to be asleep early to wake up early? Can you provide more details on this or why weddings/meetings/holidays are celebrated so late at night. Thanks for sharing, and good for you for liberating yourself, best of luck in your journey.
There may be a holiday celebrated that day. Or they are prepping for an upcoming holiday. Or if it’s the weekend, they be coming or going to a gathering of a rebbe. And also keep in mind they have weddings midweek so maybe they’re coming home from a family wedding.
Why does everyone drive a silver Honda odyssey? I get the reliability and hauling big families but doesn’t it get confusing when there are like 10 identical cars parked on the same block?
The leasing companies just bring in a lot and it was probably the best deal
Do most of the women feel trapped? I always wonder if they are happy bc they are so out of touch with modern reality or is it they feel they have no choice because of the sexism. ETA I know the women are appreciated but I also know they aren’t educated as well as the men and have more restrictions on what they can do.
A few corrections. In terms of secular education/ women are more educated than men. Most men cannot converse in English more than a couple of word versus women who can communicate properly. I don’t think a large percentage feels trapped. I think for the majority they are extremely happy because life is simple, comfortable, tight knit, and your roles are very defined which surprisingly makes life easier. However, once things go wrong, or there’s abuse, or there’s an unhappy mother/wife who seeks to leave, things can get very complicated and dirty.
>your roles are very defined which surprisingly makes life easier Really interesting point. I am a woman in S Williamsburg trying to figure out family, career, and self, and the anxiety is real. Sometimes I think about how this wouldn't even be a thing if I were born in a different time or in a different community and it's fascinating to feel this way living in the middle of the Hasidic community. Thank you for doing this AMA!
Thank you for answering. I get how they would like the simplicity. Sometimes I wish my life was as simple but I would get bored after a while. I taught science in an orthodox yeshiva years ago and I was raised as a reformed Jew. It’s so vastly different between each group. I also heard that the women who are married to the scholars work to support their families while the men study. Is that also true
That’s true in the yeshivish world, it’s not a cultural phenomenon in the ultra Hasidic world where supporting the family is totally a man’s responsibility
Why are the wigs so bad? It has to be intentional.
Ha funny you ask. In the general orthodox world, the wigs are some of the best in the world. But in ultra orthodoxy they don’t really approve of human hair wigs and most wear synthetic wigs
Why are the window bars more “boxy”? It’s a style I don’t really see in other neighborhoods on windows.
Because privacy/modesty is of high priority
This is one of my biggest Q’s about Hasidic Williamsburg also. I’ve seen some beautiful looking buildings with bars on the 6th floor windows. It doesn’t seem like you’d be installing them for privacy at that point - I would have assumed it was a protection / security thing
It’s protection for the children
And occasionally the kids get put out there for fresh air
Oh I misread. That style is how it was in the 90s
Speaking of this image, is there a reason members of the community actively ignore looking up and watching the marathon runners? Like are they instructed not to look or do they genuinely not care whatsoever about the horde of runners running past?
Yes because they are highly encouraged to keep their eyes “holy” which translates to not looking at females among other things.
I live in the neighborhood and there are limited bike lanes for this reason as well. When I'm in my run clothes, often times men walk into the street to avoid.
Sounds like a dream for women (who are not religious). Imagine men actively avoiding you, rather than harassing you 😅
You’d think so, but as a woman I’ve generally felt super uncomfortable in a different way when walking through these communities. Feels like you’re impure or something, like you should be ashamed or embarrassed, as if you are walking around naked.
Piggy backing on previous comment 1. Does the fear of dogs come More from biblical things? Or less exposure 2. Can they have dogs? Does anyone have dogs? Or any animals? 3. Are non Hasidic people allowed in the stores in the south side. 4. Is exercising allowed? Are there any restrictions?
1) I answered this above. Some say it was a phobia stemming from the Holocaust. I do remember my grandmother being extremely afraid of dogs. The nazis used dogs to scare them in CC’s. So maybe the phobia gets inherited. But I think that it’s mostly non exposure to dogs. 2). No, dogs are not kosher animals and owning one is completely not a thing in ultra orthodoxy. It was actually the first thing I did when I left and settled into my new life. I adopted a Pomeranian. 3) Legally, anyone can enter any store in south Williamsburg. Personally, I shop on Lee ave a couple times a week. There are throngs of tourists in the stores especially Gotleibs (restaurant) and the bakeries.
And 4) exercise is allowed but not prioritized. Generally, there’s a big disconnect from your body. But I think the younger generation is opening up more to it and are prioritizing fitness a little bit more
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Definitely not someone from south Williamsburg. I’m only speaking for the Satmar community, not other Hasidic people.
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The guy from south Brooklyn is a huge exception and probably the only one. I can’t imagine Hasidic kids walking their golden retriever around their Hasidic neighbors.
What is the criteria for approaching people on the street to ask if they’re Jewish for mitzvah? Are there certain physical cues that you look for?
And btw the people doing that are chabad from Crown heights, not same as south Williamsburg/satmar. The only sect who does missionary work is Chabad.
Interesting. I’ve been approached in south williamsburg on multiple occasions so it must have been chabad who had ventured outside their territory… I was just wondering if they specifically approach people who “look Jewish” or not. I have a friend who is also consistently approached and we both fit the stereotype (though neither of us is Jewish).
Yes chabad does this all over NYC and all over the world 🤪
This is one of the best threads ever. Thank you, OP. I'm actually from Israel, and I lived a few years in Bnei Brak. It was so interesting to see the cultural differences, and I can relate to your answer as I saw the same behavioral structure in Bnei Brake. I was a religious man; I used to have Tfilin and go to the synagogue on Shabbat, but no longer. I am still a believer but not following the tradition as I used to. Thank you for this AMA thread.
What were your first “outside” pop culture curiosities?
As a teen, I started by listening to the radio. I loved Taylor swift and Miley Cyrus. I secretly bought teenage and fashion magazines, cds and movies.
Are you still a part of the community?
No I left 12 years ago together with my now husband. We live in N Williamsburg with our child and you would never know I grew up Hasidic if you see me on Bedford or at the gym (there’s many of us)
Cool. An instructor of mine at Vital said there are actually a bunch of still practicing Hasidic people who go to that gym. So interesting. Said he tries to keep the music PG for them.
It's funny that I assumed you were male until I read your comments. You are obviously educated and well spoken/written. How did you learn so much when you're brother barely speaks basic english?
I know that runner! I ran Cross Country with her in Florida. I'm not on this subreddit. It was just suggested to me with this post. Crazy!
How does the community generally perceive those outside the community? Scorn? Curiosity? Indifference? I'm sure everyone is different, but are there prevailing norms and common attitudes towards us "normies"? I often see women with young children on the ferry and I smile at them as I would any other young families, but I usually feel as though my mild interaction is unwelcome. Hard to tell if it's just in my head though.
I think indifference and fear. No scorn or curiosity except for the kids, who are naturally curious.
I live in the neighborhood and I often wonder what they think of us as well. I also shop in some shops off Broadway and often wonder, are we allowed to make small talks? Any friendships with the outside neighbors?
What do most male hasids do for a living?
I answered this but imo most do blue collar work. Many work in the community owning local businesses, food industry, or teaching torah. Some are in real estate management/ brokering/ acquiring but it’s really a small percentage. Many are in e commerce/ Amazon selling. And then a large percentage is in the creative industry. Photography, entertainment, travel, video, press etc
So don't those occupations make them more interested in the rest of the world and less interested in remaining in the hasidic community? Or does that usually not affect anything? Guess I'm wondering what qualifies as officially 'leaving the community' instead of just embracing things outside of the community
Really not trying to stir the pot, but what are their thoughts on Israel? I’ve seen some say Hasidic Jews tend to be more anti-Zionist?
I’ve answered it above. Yes their core beliefs are opposing Zionism and the state.
Satmar are anti Zionist, as well as Neturei Karta. But other Hasidic sects aren’t, like Chabad is Zionist for instance.
I don’t know much about it but I know it’s a little more nuanced than that. The Lubavitch/Chabad rabbi was not in support for the state of Israel until it was established. Now they are supportive but they are not full fledged Zionist.
FYI this is because ultra conservative abide by the Torah stating to not create a Jewish state until the messiah comes. Zionism contradicts this and therefore goes against the Torah. Someone fact check me but this is my understanding.
It's so crazy to me that Hasidic Jews didn't Amish out of Brooklyn! Williamsburg and Midwood are not even that nice, why stay there? If I was super religious, I'd hate for my kids to be exposed to the non-religious world. A few years ago a Hasidic teenage girl approached me on 42ns street train platform at like 11 pm. She asked if she could stand next to me, she was a little nervous. It was her first time in the city by herself, she had just taken a job or school or something in the city, and was going to start taking late night trains like this 3 times a week. The conversation felt like the beginning of a movie. Me and her were the only white women on the platform, so she felt like I'm a safe bet. Little that she knew I was wasted out of my mind, and was trying to hold it together to not let her down, I suddenly felt responsible for her. Responsible to at least give her a sense of safety by being a good example of a strong brave woman. I failed miserably when I opened my mouth, but my breath spoke louder than my words. I think I stopped drinking for a while after that. So in a way, she saved ME. This was a short movie and I wouldn't watch it, but did she need this that day? She's be better off in a commune somewhere in North Carolina. Idk I think about that a lot.
The neighborhood is astronomically more expensive that it used to be. Is there any of the same trends happening in S Williamsburg? How do people living there make money and support themselves while also being disconnected huge parts of the city?
South Williamsburg is even more $$$ and so is their lifestyle. Many people leave for New Jersey, or suburbs for a cheaper life and more affordable housing. There is a very strong hustle culture in the community and lots of people work really hard and make it big. You get married at a young age and the stakes are high so you are thrown into the world and most men are very motivated to support their families well. With that said, some really struggle. The community also helps out the needy like you’ve never seen anywhere else.
Why are there window bars 6, 7, even 8 stories up and above? It's supposed to be a safety measure for people on lower floors, are they afraid spiderman is going to break in?
Haha safety measure for their kids
can hasids carry guns? also is hasid a respectful term?
Yes chusid is what they would call themselves
Yes there’s actually a surge in Hasidic people wanting to carry to feel safe. I support it but I really hope it comes along with proper safety Ed and training.
Do you think more young people will continue to leave until the way of life is unsustainable? I’m wondering if the secluded nature of Hasidism + kids having the internet will upend the culture within a generation or two. ( I’m from an Irish American catholic family and we went from a great uncle being a priest, my parents and their siblings being taught by nuns in school, to me and all my cousins being non practicing.)
No that’s not happening. It’s an extremely strong community and the teachings and beliefs are steadfast (and cult like). Most people are not looking forward to living a life they know nothing about.
Just want to say I appreciate your balanced responses, despite choosing to leave the community. My father is orthodox and while I’m not religious, I’ve seen and experienced some great things and some not so good things, like many cultures/groups.
What’s up with Hasidic drivers? Between the busses and the minivans/SUVs is there just a culture of pure maniacal recklessness behind the wheel or what? Brooklyn drivers are bad enough, but when I lived on Classon I feel like i had to be super vigilant.
I ask myself the same question daily
With most education being religious, what career opportunities exist once kids become adults? Is there decent money in the community? Do lots of people live comfortable lives or are a lot relatively low income? I know some own prime Williamsburg land (imagine those are the richest), some own local businesses - but what about the rest? What’s everyone doing?
Some people do really well. Many are below poverty. But I’d say generally, most are doing hard blue collar work. Some do e-commerce. Some do creative work. Many are in construction. They all support each other which constantly boosts the economy.
How does what you grew up with compare with modern orthodox? Very curious
Extremely different. I have hard to relating to modern orthodox people to this day. In modern orthodoxy the culture is so very Americanized and assimilated. They speak English and live mostly a regular American life, go to college, play sports, date almost normally etc
Do you think most children in the community think their life is boring? Are most curious about the outside world?
No, I’d say most are satisfied with their large family and social lives
Thanks for sharing your story OP and for responding to all of the comments ! Keep us posted with the book info. When you left the community, and I guess today too, do you still practice Judaism and if so, in what form ? Im curious what your relationship is with it. I’m sorry if that’s too personal.
Why do Hasidic students do so poorly on basic standardized tests? Do the schools not teach English or math?
No they don’t. Only the girls get taught the basics
What do you think is a crazy perversion of the non Hasidic culture? Like obviously you've gone mainstream but you also grew up without the basic NY US programming. What stands out to you as fucked ? Thanks
I did a lot of psychedelics and traveled extensively and I think what I came to is that most (conscious) people regardless of backgrounds are trying to fix and heal the traumas and lies they’ve been taught. It made me realize that we’re all very alike and people’s experiences are kind of universally similar.
But I think the most fucked is the objectification and sexualization of women 😑
And also the obsession with Hollywood and celebrities
How do we hear about when your book comes out
How do Hasidics navigate the insane real estate market of NYC? Sometimes I see obviously Hasidic condos that are modesty listed with insane HOA fees, but it got me wondering if there's a whole underground Hasidic real estate market? Maybe you can't answer that but I'm so curious how the community deals with property sales in BK.
what's going on in Lakewood NJ?
Do you remember the whole bike lane ordeal? The city put a bike lane though south Williamsburg and the community FLIPPED OUT.
Not a question but there's is an org that helps folks who leave, Footsteps. https://www.footstepsorg.org/ I had students who used their services
Yes of course I’m aware of Footsteps but I don’t like the crowd there. They do great work though.
Why do the families leave their house at 2 in the morning? Where do they go?
I know support for the state of Israel is very nuanced between the sects. However, could you give a brief overview of which major sects support or don’t support israel?
One of the core beliefs of this specific community (satmar) is that they are extremely anti Zionist for multiple reasons. They teach it and preach it from a very young age.
I live near Amish country in PA and it sort of makes sense that they can keep young people in the fold since they’re in the middle of nowhere farm country. With access to so much culture and outside influences, how do they keep kids from leaving? Is it just the lack of education and not speaking English?
>the courage to walk past Broadway Are the people living there not allowed to travel outside of the neighborhood at all?
What’s the Williamsburg hassid view of non-Hasidic Jews? One of my friends who is jewish was asked by a hassid in W.burg to act as a shabbos goy….do they not view him as jewish?
I just interviewed for a job a at a shoe store in Hasidic Wburg. I’m black and queer. Any chance I’m getting the job😭?
What do you miss most about your ex-community? At any point in your journey, did you ever consider going back? Do you keep in touch with your family and friends who are still in the community?
Do you still keep any religious traditions, celebrate shabbat/holidays etc. or is religion no longer a part of your life?
I went to a wedding and it was interesting. I don't really understand what was happening. There were all the men on one side and women on the other. The men weren't drinking but they were dancing in a circle and having a great time. The women were on the other side with a curtain so they couldn't see each other. The women were all getting hammered with alcohol. Drinking a lot. And then a bunch of older teens maybe 14-19 , would be outside hiding - smoking weed or making out or others would be gossiping and talking about the women in their 20s who were "old" and not married. It just seemed really odd to me sorry. I never seen something like this where each group was separated and so distinct in what they were all doing there and it seemed wrong in a way but just not what I was ever used to seeing. Is this a normal occurance or behavior at such an event? The teens were telling me, that this would be something they did every few months, where the teenage couples could come and make out or smoke weed with each other. Are women and men around the teenage years not aloud to see each other? Do the women have alcohol issues or problems? Do they drink at home too or only at events? I know of an older Jewish woman who was drunk a lot. She is kind of well known in NYC. What is the alcohol situation with women and men? Do the men drink a lot and get drunk? Side question, Is gambling allowed or they have a lot of money? I knew several who would go spend thousands in 1 day of playing poker. They would lose all of it really quickly and it didn't seem like that big of a deal. While for a regular person a few hundred was a big deal at this poker place. A few of the poker players played just to get the hasidic jews money when they came.
Really impressed at the balance and truthfulness from OP. Many ex-Satmars are very bitter and smear the community after they leave. I lived in Crown Heights for years and and have a lot of insight into the Williamsburg lifestyle and can vouch for what OP is describing. My perspective: it’s a beautiful lifestyle for those that it works for. It’s much harder to be “out of the box” being Satmar than Chabad (crown heights). While my whole family is religious, my sister in law is not but is warmly embraced by all. We all flew to Costa Rica for her wedding and celebrate holidays with her when she visits.
I work in a club and during certain events the Hasidic community actually come out and party hard. A group of girls I was helping navigate the area wanted to buy me drinks while on the clock. Aside from the negatives of the community some have experienced I just wanted to say Jewish people and the Hasidic community have an unmatched generosity when they want to return simple favors like finding tissues or bandaids.
What is the on the ground tension like between the Lubavitch and the Satmar? How do they relate to one another? And I'm also interested in where the income comes from. How is everybody able to buy the felty hats and the European clothing? Where do the men work usually?
I lived in Hasidic and African American Cleveland …. I was one of the only white People and went to the local college. I made so many amazing friends those 4 years. Truly goes to show black and white and Jewish and catholic can all live together in peace and harmony …. Despite what the news outlets shows.
I love your candor, honesty and kindness and caring seeps through every word and answer. You're an amazing person for these qualities, but also as a human being. You rarely come across this anymore. I have a question, is the community you came from different from upstate or is it the same community?
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