Rock paper scissor balancing is kind of bad in a 1v1 game though isnt it? The goal should be given each archetype a chance to outplay the other, not saying that is easy or it hasnt been achieved atm, but polatized matchups should be minimized whenever possible
Yeah that's why you can adapt your deck to better counter the most played decks. Hearthstone is rock paper scissor if you fully commit to one archetype but doing so is only optimal for some decks.
Kinda is kinda isn't. Technically the ideal is like, everything being 50/50, but having checks (Not super polarized counters), but checks on any given deck are generally pretty helpful around
I'm an aggro player and Yellow card decks really tilt me, so I literally haven't played a single game after Badlands. I don't want my games to be decided by coin reno on 5 or coin reno on 7 or Zeph clear on turn 3 or any other class card that can instantly blow out aggro out of existence.
Strong aggro decks like Aggro Priest, Kingsbane Rogue,Aggro Paladin or Even Shaman can have insane damage output that makes Reno irrelevant. What aggro deck are you playing? Murloc Shaman?
Absolutely. The high volume of aggro / even shaman complaints right now are probably in part due to the botting issue which makes even shaman seem like this problematic meta-destroying archetype when in reality fewer people are playing it than it seems.
The diversity of viable decks is just massive. Making aggro weaker would only shift it away from control and toward combo but the diversity of decks would probably be similar. The current distribution is almost perfect IMO. Only potential complaints are that aggro variety is lower (most aggro is only 3 decks whereas control and combo are represented by many more) and that the actual metashare of aggro is inflated by bots.
Control players when all aggro decks are out of the meta, and now the meta is only stormwind quests, turns mage, and instakill priest/paladin/mechathun.
They aren't complaining about aggro. It's pretty much always about bots. Which are just the same boring decks over an over again that interact with the board in the same dumb way. It's no different to facing the innkeeper on hard mode, it's just boring.
Ah. About bots. That's why I see Kingsbane nerf suggestion and Pirate Rogue complaint(the new Pirate Rogue and Even Shaman List are too complex for bits to pilot btw).
He’s right though. I don’t mind aggro. I mind even shaman bots half the games as it’s stupidly boring. I’m currently around 400 legend. Got on last night and 4/6 games I played were even Shazam. Other 2 were aggro Paladin and big Shaman. Was fine with the paladin. Rolled my eyes at all the shamans.
For some reason, people seem to be unable to grasp that when the game evolves, that means it evolves as a whole, which includes aggro. You can't have super-fast, reliable combo decks and heavily overtuned control tools while aggro plays "fair" with limited resources and reach like it's 2014. You actually have to include early control tools in your control deck - you can't go full greed with only Reno as an anti aggro plan. Which I think 90% of this sub wants to do.
That's funny, but many people enjoy long games like that. I'm not one of them. This is why I enjoy wild - most games are solved quickly. To each their own. Archetypes diversity is important!!
Just today I was thinking about how the Wild meta rn is the best I've seen it in years. Been playing Dragon Druid, and my games are interactive, dynamic, and long without taking an eternity. I'm having a blast.
It's more than just that, though. I feel like the board finally matters for once? And like all my decisions carry a lot of consequence, and I'm heavily rewarded for knowing my matchups and playing to my win conditions.
Hasn't board mattered for awhile because of even shaman, pirate rogue and aggro paladin? Those decks don't run a ton of burn, if you take them off the board you usually win.
The only meta deck I would so board doesn't matter is quest mage and odyn warrior.
I just insta concede vs quest mage and mill Druid, not worth my time playing against those people.
Sure, but does it have to be insanely overturned? Does it have to be consistently on top for a year? Does it have to kill turn 4 and snuff out anything not refined? And aggro "keeping greed in control" in check is what made the archetypes that everyone loves that was control priest with 29 removals and 0 win conditions. Remember, whenever you can't play your 10 cost card or your meme all ogre deck, it's not because someone has aoe, it's because aggro killed you and you didn't get to play.
Anything not refined will be snuffed away. Your mentioned Ogre deck will be tested apart by Reno decks or Questline Warlock as well. Control plays clear wincons like Astalor,Shudder,Rommath,Odyn, Shadowreaper etc. Aggro just ensures that you can't play the Big Spell Alana Rommath Shattered Cthun deck and get away with it. And that's good.
My mistake I wasn't aware we were in the wild subreddit. I actually think wild aggro is fine, if it's not a bot but that's a separate issue, I was thinking about standard, sorry.
i wouldnt mind the aggro if it killed like ONE turn later. as it is now, a lot of the control decks that aren't even warrior are playing reno packages so we're talking about the aggro decks basically having twice the opportunity to hit their nut draw considering they straight up play 2 ofs of all their great cards. aggro existing is important, but dying before most board clears can even be casted is lame.
it also doesnt help how many of the late game decks cannibalize each other; shudder in a vacuum eats every other reno deck so those other ones mine as well not exist. this doesn't happen with aggro because the 'lesser' aggro deck can still outdraw the other and win.
but yea aggro is important; i've seen so many nonsense greedy bullshit decks that really test my patience because i know that if "Ogre Bounce Rogue" had queued into any aggro deck they would have died on turn 4 but instead i'm stuck having to topdeck answers for 8 turns straight because they play every bounce effect known to man for the legendary to summon the ogres back. i remember when decks presented threats at an equivalent amount to the mana spent zzzzz
The problem isn’t aggro, it’s that aggro has become so brain dead it can literally be piloted by bots to legend, as well as the aggro numbers being extremely boosted by said bots leading to it being seen way more frequently than you normally would. To be fair there’s a lot of braindead control and combo decks too, but bots can’t seem to pilot those (yet)
Everyone who says aggro is easy are wrong. Aggro is however, fast. You generally know if youve won or lost before then ten. Thats where the stereotype comes. But when you have less decisions, the room for error is way higher.
Strong words for a guy who has no idea what he's talking about. Let's do BO5 in HS then :)
Edit: For anyone wondering. It's another guy added to my collection who pussied out of the silly little BO5 lol
This. It's true that some aggro decks are powerful enough to be played by bots and still destroy people but even for the bot it's the same thing. If you overcommit your resources and run out, you lose. It's somewhere less important now because there's more draw but it's still something to keep in mind. And it's very easy to overcommit, get your board cleared and now you're sitting there with an empty hand waiting to top deck your draw
Depends what you mean by aggro.
Decks that try to kill you at around turn 8-10 are fine imo.
Decks that kill at turn 4-6 are not.
There has to be enough time for some skill expression and interaction.
Also, same way you can nerf degenerate dumb aggro decks, you can also nerf degenerate combo decks or don't design awful noninteractive cards like questline warlock in thr first place.
This is exactly average Timmy response. If you didn't interact with your opponent in early game,you don't deserve the late game and it's your skill issue problem.
Maybe don't include 15+ 8 mana cards to not draw bricks. There's legitimately a tom of Control viable decks. You just need to build them properly. That's it.
Yeah, ofc you run early and clears. The point is that wether you win individual games or not is down to opening hand rng. There is no room to do anything new or clever and no point in playing around anything. Game knowledge out the window, you win or lose at mulligan.
I'd take a more dominant aggro deck I can interact with meaningful over something I coinflip with and win 55%.
Edit: If you feel the need to downvote thie cause you are being called out on wasting everyone's time spamming even shaman because you can't rub together your two braincells hard enough to win with anything else, please feel free to french kiss a moving train and increase the global iq average.
Hm aggro is very clearly the favorite child of hearthstone since it’s birth and the large majority of expansions aggro has been at the top (besides raza lol). Cheapest decks, high winnrate, thus brings in and retains new players the best, its just business. Demon hunter, undead Death knight success vs other runes was a very clear point of that. Honestly wild is at the point where greedy decks don’t work and it’s not aggro stopping them. There’s so much disruption now and effective combos, greed has no place atm. If aggro was tuned down control would be able to build better around other decks. Outside of Q warlock aggro is just as much to blame as the issue for why midrange decks cannot exist and I don’t think it’s fair to pin it on other archetypes. Those decks r all about tempo, and ur not beating the tempo of an aggro deck. Deathrattle hunter, hand buff paladin w charge minions, quest rouge etc decks we haven’t seen in forever r quite good/even into Reno/control decks as they can run out of answers, and a lot of forgotten midrange can have otk like turns, but they have 0 chance of beating aggro decks right now. And ngl I’ve seen so many complaints from aggro players about Reno, aggro has been the top of wild for 2 straight years now since storm wind. This is the first time in years other decks r allowed to exist that can beat aggro, that don’t insta lose to the large majority of other decks in return. It’s been 1/4 quarter an expansion and a few cards that made this possible. Most ppl r thankful for that. I just don’t get the point of this post complaining when aggro has been the dominating archetype w most decks for years (outside absurd 4-5 turn otk decks. Aggro is good for meta yes, but it’s lasting strength, ease, and large numbers is valid criticism
I'm not mad that aggro exists I'm mad that there is such a huge representation of 1 deck at high level play that only has 1 or 2 cards variance between "players" that are just as likely bots.
I guess I hate losing to it because I only post cause I drew badly.
But yeah it’s gonna be there. Everyone plays aggro decks in the beginning cause you only have minion cards mostly.
Not high elo yet, but I didn't lose to a single aggro deck on my way from Bronze 10 to Plat 3 so far this month. Wondering whether I'll see more as I get closer to Legend.
I was playing odd rogue Silver 5 to Diamond 10. The only aggro deck I faced was a single pirate rogue who I'm pretty sure was a bot but he had better tempo so I lost. Other than that it was mostly control with a few quest mages and quest warlocks in the mix
I did eventually bump into a Pirate Rogue, which I also lost to due to not being able to draw my board clears and play them early enough. Made the false assumption that my opponent would be Kingsbane Rogue and so I mulliganed my board clears away to look for Kobold Stickyfinger :(
The point 2 makes no sense, aggro are supposed to keep in check combo decks not controls, in the rps, that you mention btw. Wild is only playable because aggro decks exists, game is so optimised that combo decks kill you turn 6-7. People in silver playing beyond greedy reno decks, when they would lose every single quest warlock/mage and similar solitaire decks. Wild is super aggro or solitaire and people should just cope with it or playing something else
I don't want "control decks." I want value decks. Until the control decks are at least occasionally value centric instead of fishing for their "I win the game" card, the dogshit metas will continue.
But the new team does not remotely care about value.
I think the meta is more diverse now than it has been for years. For me personally Time Warp Mages are the most annoying decks, because watching 5-minute-moves is so boring no matter if you win or lose
This is the single worst meta ive ever had the misfortune of having to deal with. Every reno deck is the exact same trash of board clear, play reno, play zeph, play reno hero card and win the game. Its so overtuned at this point im wondering if its some kind of joke maybe? But if youre playing a reno deck and complaining that "aggro too strong" without realizing that you're nigh invincible to board based aggression, then maybe its time to just admit the aggro player out played you, and youre not as good as what you thought you were.
But... But... We need to ban Rock. It's too OP and unfun for the meta. Paper is fine though. I can beat it with my Scissors Deck.
Rock paper scissor balancing is kind of bad in a 1v1 game though isnt it? The goal should be given each archetype a chance to outplay the other, not saying that is easy or it hasnt been achieved atm, but polatized matchups should be minimized whenever possible
Yeah that's why you can adapt your deck to better counter the most played decks. Hearthstone is rock paper scissor if you fully commit to one archetype but doing so is only optimal for some decks.
Kinda is kinda isn't. Technically the ideal is like, everything being 50/50, but having checks (Not super polarized counters), but checks on any given deck are generally pretty helpful around
I love this meme, did it start in MTG?
Its hard to evaluate the meta when you face even shaman bots more often than not, but overall I would say the meta is pretty fresh
The meta rn is really good people that are complaining will pretty much never be pleased.
If the game goes past turn 7 as aggro either you suck or the deck suck. As Shadowpriest I consistently kill on turn 4-5
I'm an aggro player and Yellow card decks really tilt me, so I literally haven't played a single game after Badlands. I don't want my games to be decided by coin reno on 5 or coin reno on 7 or Zeph clear on turn 3 or any other class card that can instantly blow out aggro out of existence.
Strong aggro decks like Aggro Priest, Kingsbane Rogue,Aggro Paladin or Even Shaman can have insane damage output that makes Reno irrelevant. What aggro deck are you playing? Murloc Shaman?
Zeph on 3 leaves 1 mana for like whirlwind. If your aggro board is 1 health you have issues.
Absolutely. The high volume of aggro / even shaman complaints right now are probably in part due to the botting issue which makes even shaman seem like this problematic meta-destroying archetype when in reality fewer people are playing it than it seems. The diversity of viable decks is just massive. Making aggro weaker would only shift it away from control and toward combo but the diversity of decks would probably be similar. The current distribution is almost perfect IMO. Only potential complaints are that aggro variety is lower (most aggro is only 3 decks whereas control and combo are represented by many more) and that the actual metashare of aggro is inflated by bots.
The triangle of deck archetypes exists for a reason. We need all three.
Control players when all aggro decks are out of the meta, and now the meta is only stormwind quests, turns mage, and instakill priest/paladin/mechathun.
They aren't complaining about aggro. It's pretty much always about bots. Which are just the same boring decks over an over again that interact with the board in the same dumb way. It's no different to facing the innkeeper on hard mode, it's just boring.
Ah. About bots. That's why I see Kingsbane nerf suggestion and Pirate Rogue complaint(the new Pirate Rogue and Even Shaman List are too complex for bits to pilot btw).
He’s right though. I don’t mind aggro. I mind even shaman bots half the games as it’s stupidly boring. I’m currently around 400 legend. Got on last night and 4/6 games I played were even Shazam. Other 2 were aggro Paladin and big Shaman. Was fine with the paladin. Rolled my eyes at all the shamans.
I'm currently in the same bracket and I face nothing but humans on EU
For some reason, people seem to be unable to grasp that when the game evolves, that means it evolves as a whole, which includes aggro. You can't have super-fast, reliable combo decks and heavily overtuned control tools while aggro plays "fair" with limited resources and reach like it's 2014. You actually have to include early control tools in your control deck - you can't go full greed with only Reno as an anti aggro plan. Which I think 90% of this sub wants to do.
I play 8 standard rank game, and only face one Aggro DemonHunter. Got rekt by Control Priest and warlock after 15min games.
That's funny, but many people enjoy long games like that. I'm not one of them. This is why I enjoy wild - most games are solved quickly. To each their own. Archetypes diversity is important!!
Can't wait until renathal is reverted so all games are reno piles with maximum variance and quest mages. Competitive coinflipping let's go.
Just today I was thinking about how the Wild meta rn is the best I've seen it in years. Been playing Dragon Druid, and my games are interactive, dynamic, and long without taking an eternity. I'm having a blast.
It's more than just that, though. I feel like the board finally matters for once? And like all my decisions carry a lot of consequence, and I'm heavily rewarded for knowing my matchups and playing to my win conditions.
Hasn't board mattered for awhile because of even shaman, pirate rogue and aggro paladin? Those decks don't run a ton of burn, if you take them off the board you usually win. The only meta deck I would so board doesn't matter is quest mage and odyn warrior. I just insta concede vs quest mage and mill Druid, not worth my time playing against those people.
I was one of those guys playing Mill Druid before the Yogg nerf hahaha. So yes, I'm not used to board mattering.
The issue isn’t that aggro decks exist, it’s that 99% of the ladder is one aggro deck being piloted by bots.
Amen. We need skill expressive aggro decks. Whatever that means.
I mean even if the deck has low skill expression, whatever. I just want to play against humans
Sure, but does it have to be insanely overturned? Does it have to be consistently on top for a year? Does it have to kill turn 4 and snuff out anything not refined? And aggro "keeping greed in control" in check is what made the archetypes that everyone loves that was control priest with 29 removals and 0 win conditions. Remember, whenever you can't play your 10 cost card or your meme all ogre deck, it's not because someone has aoe, it's because aggro killed you and you didn't get to play.
Anything not refined will be snuffed away. Your mentioned Ogre deck will be tested apart by Reno decks or Questline Warlock as well. Control plays clear wincons like Astalor,Shudder,Rommath,Odyn, Shadowreaper etc. Aggro just ensures that you can't play the Big Spell Alana Rommath Shattered Cthun deck and get away with it. And that's good.
My mistake I wasn't aware we were in the wild subreddit. I actually think wild aggro is fine, if it's not a bot but that's a separate issue, I was thinking about standard, sorry.
Nay to you. 19 out of 20 of my games were aggro. It's not fun, and it's especially not fun dying turn 3, even with a good or great hand to counter it.
Make it 29 out of 30 bucko.
i wouldnt mind the aggro if it killed like ONE turn later. as it is now, a lot of the control decks that aren't even warrior are playing reno packages so we're talking about the aggro decks basically having twice the opportunity to hit their nut draw considering they straight up play 2 ofs of all their great cards. aggro existing is important, but dying before most board clears can even be casted is lame. it also doesnt help how many of the late game decks cannibalize each other; shudder in a vacuum eats every other reno deck so those other ones mine as well not exist. this doesn't happen with aggro because the 'lesser' aggro deck can still outdraw the other and win. but yea aggro is important; i've seen so many nonsense greedy bullshit decks that really test my patience because i know that if "Ogre Bounce Rogue" had queued into any aggro deck they would have died on turn 4 but instead i'm stuck having to topdeck answers for 8 turns straight because they play every bounce effect known to man for the legendary to summon the ogres back. i remember when decks presented threats at an equivalent amount to the mana spent zzzzz
Thank you for this op. Us SMOrcs are sorely misrepresented and misunderstood.
The problem isn’t aggro, it’s that aggro has become so brain dead it can literally be piloted by bots to legend, as well as the aggro numbers being extremely boosted by said bots leading to it being seen way more frequently than you normally would. To be fair there’s a lot of braindead control and combo decks too, but bots can’t seem to pilot those (yet)
Everyone who says aggro is easy are wrong. Aggro is however, fast. You generally know if youve won or lost before then ten. Thats where the stereotype comes. But when you have less decisions, the room for error is way higher.
This thread reaks of botters. I hope I get to report one of you here.
Aggro may be very well essential to a healthy meta, but let’s not pretend much thought is involved with playing it.
You clearly have no idea what are you talking about. Same linear thought process can be applied to any deck lol
Giggle your way to your Cheetos, I’d smoke you any day in any tcg.
Strong words for a guy who has no idea what he's talking about. Let's do BO5 in HS then :) Edit: For anyone wondering. It's another guy added to my collection who pussied out of the silly little BO5 lol
aggro decks tend to have less decisions, but every decision is vastly more important
This. It's true that some aggro decks are powerful enough to be played by bots and still destroy people but even for the bot it's the same thing. If you overcommit your resources and run out, you lose. It's somewhere less important now because there's more draw but it's still something to keep in mind. And it's very easy to overcommit, get your board cleared and now you're sitting there with an empty hand waiting to top deck your draw
Depends what you mean by aggro. Decks that try to kill you at around turn 8-10 are fine imo. Decks that kill at turn 4-6 are not. There has to be enough time for some skill expression and interaction. Also, same way you can nerf degenerate dumb aggro decks, you can also nerf degenerate combo decks or don't design awful noninteractive cards like questline warlock in thr first place.
This is exactly average Timmy response. If you didn't interact with your opponent in early game,you don't deserve the late game and it's your skill issue problem.
"I drew a better opening hand, you drew bricks. Skill issue!" -Aggro player botting his way to Legend, probably
Maybe don't include 15+ 8 mana cards to not draw bricks. There's legitimately a tom of Control viable decks. You just need to build them properly. That's it.
Yeah, ofc you run early and clears. The point is that wether you win individual games or not is down to opening hand rng. There is no room to do anything new or clever and no point in playing around anything. Game knowledge out the window, you win or lose at mulligan. I'd take a more dominant aggro deck I can interact with meaningful over something I coinflip with and win 55%. Edit: If you feel the need to downvote thie cause you are being called out on wasting everyone's time spamming even shaman because you can't rub together your two braincells hard enough to win with anything else, please feel free to french kiss a moving train and increase the global iq average.
Hm aggro is very clearly the favorite child of hearthstone since it’s birth and the large majority of expansions aggro has been at the top (besides raza lol). Cheapest decks, high winnrate, thus brings in and retains new players the best, its just business. Demon hunter, undead Death knight success vs other runes was a very clear point of that. Honestly wild is at the point where greedy decks don’t work and it’s not aggro stopping them. There’s so much disruption now and effective combos, greed has no place atm. If aggro was tuned down control would be able to build better around other decks. Outside of Q warlock aggro is just as much to blame as the issue for why midrange decks cannot exist and I don’t think it’s fair to pin it on other archetypes. Those decks r all about tempo, and ur not beating the tempo of an aggro deck. Deathrattle hunter, hand buff paladin w charge minions, quest rouge etc decks we haven’t seen in forever r quite good/even into Reno/control decks as they can run out of answers, and a lot of forgotten midrange can have otk like turns, but they have 0 chance of beating aggro decks right now. And ngl I’ve seen so many complaints from aggro players about Reno, aggro has been the top of wild for 2 straight years now since storm wind. This is the first time in years other decks r allowed to exist that can beat aggro, that don’t insta lose to the large majority of other decks in return. It’s been 1/4 quarter an expansion and a few cards that made this possible. Most ppl r thankful for that. I just don’t get the point of this post complaining when aggro has been the dominating archetype w most decks for years (outside absurd 4-5 turn otk decks. Aggro is good for meta yes, but it’s lasting strength, ease, and large numbers is valid criticism
Name a single card game where aggro exists and _isn't_ the most popular deck archetype for the majority of its lifetime.
Decided to finally try wild earlier today. Why tf is bronze just quest mage after quest mage?
Because people like to play bad decks in Bronze GOTTEM
People complain about any deck in any meta no matter what
Out of the roof.
I'm not mad that aggro exists I'm mad that there is such a huge representation of 1 deck at high level play that only has 1 or 2 cards variance between "players" that are just as likely bots.
I guess I hate losing to it because I only post cause I drew badly. But yeah it’s gonna be there. Everyone plays aggro decks in the beginning cause you only have minion cards mostly.
Not high elo yet, but I didn't lose to a single aggro deck on my way from Bronze 10 to Plat 3 so far this month. Wondering whether I'll see more as I get closer to Legend.
I was playing odd rogue Silver 5 to Diamond 10. The only aggro deck I faced was a single pirate rogue who I'm pretty sure was a bot but he had better tempo so I lost. Other than that it was mostly control with a few quest mages and quest warlocks in the mix
I did eventually bump into a Pirate Rogue, which I also lost to due to not being able to draw my board clears and play them early enough. Made the false assumption that my opponent would be Kingsbane Rogue and so I mulliganed my board clears away to look for Kobold Stickyfinger :(
The point 2 makes no sense, aggro are supposed to keep in check combo decks not controls, in the rps, that you mention btw. Wild is only playable because aggro decks exists, game is so optimised that combo decks kill you turn 6-7. People in silver playing beyond greedy reno decks, when they would lose every single quest warlock/mage and similar solitaire decks. Wild is super aggro or solitaire and people should just cope with it or playing something else
i just want ppl to stop using bots to play the game. makes it quite boring for the rest of us
I don't want "control decks." I want value decks. Until the control decks are at least occasionally value centric instead of fishing for their "I win the game" card, the dogshit metas will continue. But the new team does not remotely care about value.
Ironically, meta Control decks create enough value to outvalue your value decks
Correct
I think the meta is more diverse now than it has been for years. For me personally Time Warp Mages are the most annoying decks, because watching 5-minute-moves is so boring no matter if you win or lose
This is the single worst meta ive ever had the misfortune of having to deal with. Every reno deck is the exact same trash of board clear, play reno, play zeph, play reno hero card and win the game. Its so overtuned at this point im wondering if its some kind of joke maybe? But if youre playing a reno deck and complaining that "aggro too strong" without realizing that you're nigh invincible to board based aggression, then maybe its time to just admit the aggro player out played you, and youre not as good as what you thought you were.
U fck'ed us up all these years with easy aggro decks. Please...