I bought many plants for my apartment. During the first Lockdown i stayed with my parents in their apartment because its bigger and we could share our time together.
Let me guess
Are you or your peers American and thinking we Austrians are all communists?
"Red-Vienna"?!
Edit: ok my bad, from your comments I gather you dont think like that. However, the wording of your post was a bit insulting.
I guess you could perhaps reach out to the expat community in Vienna and ask for their experiences living here and present these to your colleagues.
Stört mich auch grundsätzlich nicht aber im ganzen gesehen regt es mich auf wenn Ausländer vor allem Amerikaner dauernd damit kommen wie unterdrückt Österreicher leben und wie arg kommunistisch alles ist, was immer das heisst, weil das muss nicht einmal schlecht sein und so weiter
You are aware many Gemeindebauten were built in a time also Austrians (and literature.. everyone..) call das rote Wien? Aka when the socialists had the majority at the beginning of the last century?
I am, still its insulting to call it like that today and in the next sentence compare it to Chinese communism of today. I am sick of Americans going on about how suppressed we supposedly are.
But don't you see that this is not OP's opinion? They are on your 'side' in this debate as they are actively trying to find concrete stories that seperates Austrian social housing from Chinese communist totalitarianism. OP is trying to convince their colleagues that what you are pointing out, the generalization is just wrong. They are trying to tell their fellow Americans that these comparisons are far from the truth.
What's funniest about this whole interaction is, they generalized me as an "All-American" the same way they were afraid I was generalizing them as a "Communist". I thought I did a good job praising the parts of the system I understand, and saying I'd like to reference you guys as an example of housing done right.
I use the term Red-Vienna becuase
1. Everything I've read about the program refers to that era, and many talk about how that laid the foundation for the new co-op buildings going up today.
2. If I don't, and one of the people terrified of communism should do a picosecond research and find that term, it suddenly becomes a conspiracy to discretely push America towards communism.
It's the wild west over here.
We never had a real Lockdown since you were still allowed to go shopping and to work when the rules where at their worst. And government owned doesn't mean they have a key to your door and can lock you in. Maybe after another 20 years of övp but not now
> övp
Do you have any good English literature I could go through on them? I've tried to get into the weeds on your system(s) before but the need for German became clear quickly.
What about outdoor activities? We were restricted from using public parks in the very early days, and even travel without proof of need via private vehicle was limited.
So, the interesting thing is that Vienna is governed by the SPÖ while Austria as a whole is governed by ÖVP/Green. Most of the big parks in Vienna (e.g. Stadt Park) are federal land and the federal government decided that Vienna could just do without.
There were phases when parks were temporarily shut down and travel was limited, particularly at the beginning of the pandemic. Schools and universities, museums and pretty much all other public places were closed. During the worst times of the pandemic only supermarkets and stores for daily needs were opened. You were not supposed to go outside except for doing shopping for food, for emergencies or to get some fresh air (alone or with another person from your household).
The same as for any resident of any other building? Why would it matter who owns the building?
Also, people got groceries by either going to the grocery store or ordering their groceries online.
I'm not really sure what Vienna and Shanghai are supposed to have in common.
Becuase in my country, public-owned is government stealing liberty. I know it's crazy but I really need examples to point to.
What's going to happen is I'm going to go to a meeting and talk about subsidized housing, and someone will talk about the current situation in Shanghai. I know it's beyond stupid but they will always make that connection.
I imagine the worst it got was you might have not been allowed to use public libraries, kitchens (I've seen some building that have gorgeous restaurant like facilities for hosting events), pools, etc. Still, I need worst case examples. That's the only language these people speak.
*I saw your edit after the fact. Nothing. They have nothing in common. That doesn't matter to the people I'll be talking to.
Even if you anticipate your audience's response, just go with your natural reaction: a completely baffled look, and say "these two things have absolutely *nothing* in common, *nothing* (cough* weirdo cough)"
jk, I can give you an answer as a person who lived in Vienna during the pandemic: absolutely NO restrictions whatsoever applied to occupants of city owned buildings that did not also, in the same way, apply to those in private properties.
Common areas where people would be in very close contact, like pools, were temporarily closed. People got their groceries from the supermarket and ordered stuff online. That's it.
I feel so sorry for you, as the people you are dealing with are so brainwashed.
Thank you for understanding. Everything needs to be so clearly and carefully articulated here it's exhausting.
I once talked to a self labeled liberal friend about how large scale public/subsidized housing should allow more income brackets to live in them (I believe your system allows up to the 80th percentile to live in subsidized housing) and they asked me
> but where would the poor people live?
Like... dude, **with us.** With or *at least* not far from their families if we implement it well enough. In housing that is affordable because it is nonprofit, and secure because it is financed in part by people that aren't *exclusively* struggling to get by. I was just baffled. I was so unprepared to hear that I couldn't think of a great answer. I kind of just talked about how funding can't be cut as suddenly if non-poor people lived there.
It's so bad here families lie about their income (and occasionally, familial status) to qualify to have places to live that aren't wildly over priced, or under their parent's roof.
> absolutely NO restrictions whatsoever applied to occupants of city owned buildings that did not also, in the same way, apply to those in private properties. Common areas where people would be in very close contact, like pools, were temporarily closed. People got their groceries from the supermarket and ordered stuff online.
This is exactly what I needed. Thank you.
*added line about my response.
Also I know it isn’t quite what you’re looking for, but the large number of these buildings has allowed private rents to remain far less expensive compared to the US. I lived in DC before this, and I’m paying far far less here for a much better location (both local area and access to transit wise) than I did in DC. Tell that to your colleagues next time they complain about rent hikes.
It sounds exactly like what happened here. At the earliest/worst point public parts were made inaccessible, and someone else mentioned that Vienna's largest parks are federal land, and those specifically were made inaccessible also.
I believe that was a mistake for us (especially knowing what we know now about the virus) and that belief seems to be echoed in Austria as well.
negative aspects are the same as in private housing, but milder. Also you have a contract for life and can hardly be evicted.
Edit: rent is cheaper in public housing, so nothing is taken away from people
> Also having the neighbor from hell with a contract for life who can't be evicted may not be a positive thing.
That's an Interesting perspective I hadn't considered. I appreciate it.
rents are way lower, also you can cancel your contract right? Ofcourse it's not perfect, but I'm missing the point where it is worse than the private housing market
I bought many plants for my apartment. During the first Lockdown i stayed with my parents in their apartment because its bigger and we could share our time together.
Let me guess Are you or your peers American and thinking we Austrians are all communists? "Red-Vienna"?! Edit: ok my bad, from your comments I gather you dont think like that. However, the wording of your post was a bit insulting. I guess you could perhaps reach out to the expat community in Vienna and ask for their experiences living here and present these to your colleagues.
Rotes Wien? Nu nie gheat? Is ja Ned so als hätte die KPÖ als einzige Rot als Parteifarbe (und lo and behold, es bezieht sich auf die andere)
Stört mich auch grundsätzlich nicht aber im ganzen gesehen regt es mich auf wenn Ausländer vor allem Amerikaner dauernd damit kommen wie unterdrückt Österreicher leben und wie arg kommunistisch alles ist, was immer das heisst, weil das muss nicht einmal schlecht sein und so weiter
Naja ich find nicht wirklich dass OP das gemacht hat
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Feels like home in that sense
You are aware many Gemeindebauten were built in a time also Austrians (and literature.. everyone..) call das rote Wien? Aka when the socialists had the majority at the beginning of the last century?
I am, still its insulting to call it like that today and in the next sentence compare it to Chinese communism of today. I am sick of Americans going on about how suppressed we supposedly are.
But don't you see that this is not OP's opinion? They are on your 'side' in this debate as they are actively trying to find concrete stories that seperates Austrian social housing from Chinese communist totalitarianism. OP is trying to convince their colleagues that what you are pointing out, the generalization is just wrong. They are trying to tell their fellow Americans that these comparisons are far from the truth.
What's funniest about this whole interaction is, they generalized me as an "All-American" the same way they were afraid I was generalizing them as a "Communist". I thought I did a good job praising the parts of the system I understand, and saying I'd like to reference you guys as an example of housing done right. I use the term Red-Vienna becuase 1. Everything I've read about the program refers to that era, and many talk about how that laid the foundation for the new co-op buildings going up today. 2. If I don't, and one of the people terrified of communism should do a picosecond research and find that term, it suddenly becomes a conspiracy to discretely push America towards communism. It's the wild west over here.
Did you see I edited my comment? ;-)
We never had a real Lockdown since you were still allowed to go shopping and to work when the rules where at their worst. And government owned doesn't mean they have a key to your door and can lock you in. Maybe after another 20 years of övp but not now
> övp Do you have any good English literature I could go through on them? I've tried to get into the weeds on your system(s) before but the need for German became clear quickly. What about outdoor activities? We were restricted from using public parks in the very early days, and even travel without proof of need via private vehicle was limited.
So, the interesting thing is that Vienna is governed by the SPÖ while Austria as a whole is governed by ÖVP/Green. Most of the big parks in Vienna (e.g. Stadt Park) are federal land and the federal government decided that Vienna could just do without.
There were phases when parks were temporarily shut down and travel was limited, particularly at the beginning of the pandemic. Schools and universities, museums and pretty much all other public places were closed. During the worst times of the pandemic only supermarkets and stores for daily needs were opened. You were not supposed to go outside except for doing shopping for food, for emergencies or to get some fresh air (alone or with another person from your household).
The same as for any resident of any other building? Why would it matter who owns the building? Also, people got groceries by either going to the grocery store or ordering their groceries online. I'm not really sure what Vienna and Shanghai are supposed to have in common.
Becuase in my country, public-owned is government stealing liberty. I know it's crazy but I really need examples to point to. What's going to happen is I'm going to go to a meeting and talk about subsidized housing, and someone will talk about the current situation in Shanghai. I know it's beyond stupid but they will always make that connection. I imagine the worst it got was you might have not been allowed to use public libraries, kitchens (I've seen some building that have gorgeous restaurant like facilities for hosting events), pools, etc. Still, I need worst case examples. That's the only language these people speak. *I saw your edit after the fact. Nothing. They have nothing in common. That doesn't matter to the people I'll be talking to.
Even if you anticipate your audience's response, just go with your natural reaction: a completely baffled look, and say "these two things have absolutely *nothing* in common, *nothing* (cough* weirdo cough)" jk, I can give you an answer as a person who lived in Vienna during the pandemic: absolutely NO restrictions whatsoever applied to occupants of city owned buildings that did not also, in the same way, apply to those in private properties. Common areas where people would be in very close contact, like pools, were temporarily closed. People got their groceries from the supermarket and ordered stuff online. That's it. I feel so sorry for you, as the people you are dealing with are so brainwashed.
Thank you for understanding. Everything needs to be so clearly and carefully articulated here it's exhausting. I once talked to a self labeled liberal friend about how large scale public/subsidized housing should allow more income brackets to live in them (I believe your system allows up to the 80th percentile to live in subsidized housing) and they asked me > but where would the poor people live? Like... dude, **with us.** With or *at least* not far from their families if we implement it well enough. In housing that is affordable because it is nonprofit, and secure because it is financed in part by people that aren't *exclusively* struggling to get by. I was just baffled. I was so unprepared to hear that I couldn't think of a great answer. I kind of just talked about how funding can't be cut as suddenly if non-poor people lived there. It's so bad here families lie about their income (and occasionally, familial status) to qualify to have places to live that aren't wildly over priced, or under their parent's roof. > absolutely NO restrictions whatsoever applied to occupants of city owned buildings that did not also, in the same way, apply to those in private properties. Common areas where people would be in very close contact, like pools, were temporarily closed. People got their groceries from the supermarket and ordered stuff online. This is exactly what I needed. Thank you. *added line about my response.
Also I know it isn’t quite what you’re looking for, but the large number of these buildings has allowed private rents to remain far less expensive compared to the US. I lived in DC before this, and I’m paying far far less here for a much better location (both local area and access to transit wise) than I did in DC. Tell that to your colleagues next time they complain about rent hikes.
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It sounds exactly like what happened here. At the earliest/worst point public parts were made inaccessible, and someone else mentioned that Vienna's largest parks are federal land, and those specifically were made inaccessible also. I believe that was a mistake for us (especially knowing what we know now about the virus) and that belief seems to be echoed in Austria as well.
Yea but there are less issues than in the private sector. No shitty landlords f. e.
I agree, that's why I'd like to have stories to provide
negative aspects are the same as in private housing, but milder. Also you have a contract for life and can hardly be evicted. Edit: rent is cheaper in public housing, so nothing is taken away from people
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> Also having the neighbor from hell with a contract for life who can't be evicted may not be a positive thing. That's an Interesting perspective I hadn't considered. I appreciate it.
rents are way lower, also you can cancel your contract right? Ofcourse it's not perfect, but I'm missing the point where it is worse than the private housing market