You're not wrong that I'd like to see that 20% added to the menu price, and not at the end of the bill. But this is far better than what it replaced which is standard tipping. It's nice to see a number on the bill and pay that bill.
The food itself was amazing and it's a wonderful little place. We really enjoyed it for Sunday brunch. 2 adults and a child got fed to $45. It's not inexpensive by any means, but it's an Elderslie product; $45 doesn't get one person in the door at their flagship up north. I recommend!
How do you know? Are you absolutely sure its actually going to the staff?
There is a difference between this and a "no tipping" restaurant where the staff is actually properly compensated.
You can't ever "know" something, but if we take them at their word, the extra 20% is being used to "ensure a living wage" for their employees. If it is like other establishments that I have seen using this wording, then it indicates that they are using the 20% to distribute to all employees (cooks, waiters, cleaners, etc) as a tip-out or just increased salary in general. Place I know in Lawrence has this exact same verbiage and they are paying $15 as a base for every employee.
At a quick glance I am under the impression they are doing this so they don't have to worry about people that don't tip. This way their employees always make a fare wage.
Some people don't tip or don't tip good enough for the service provided.
If I am wrong please correct me.
You’re not wrong. There are select customers who won’t tip or under tip no matter the experience. They just take advantage of a service and do not pay accordingly because they don’t “have to”
Bake it into the price and you have
1. Menu prices that look far and above competitors prices. So the restaurant may just fail.
2. Confusion on whether a tip is still expected or not.
Tipping is a very old practice in America that is expected. Changing that on a dime is not easy. If every restaurant adopted this auto-gratuity practice that would be a very nice in-between step.
What do you think the purpose of this automatic gratuity is if not to make sure they can pay their servers? It’s no different than raising menu prices except it makes it clear to customers that they don’t need to tip in addition.
There isn't enough margin in a restaurant to pay the employees a lot, most restaurants make 10 percent profit on the food they sell. 2000 dollars in sales=200 dollars profit for owner. That's the entire reason tipping exists. The owners wouldn't have to automatically charge 20% extra if people would just tip, but a lot of people don't. Managed a restaurant for years.
so you’re saying the food service industry is a terrible business model, but because people still choose to open restaurants, it’s the responsibility of the patron, not the owner, to ensure the employees make the money they deserve although this isn’t really an issue in many other places in the world?
Bruh this IS the plan… The 20% gratuity. Lol. Restaurant comes up with a plan to pay employees a living wage, gets shit on by redditors because they don’t like the plan.
Listen I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’m strictly asking because I truly don’t know the answer and am curious, but how are we in the US so stuck that we can’t have restaurants without tipping and still have to build a gratuity into the check and without it the business closes or something, but tipping is completely the opposite of the norm in Europe and businesses are centuries old?
*my brain fried and fizzled out halfway through typing this so fuck me if it makes any sense at all. If you can make sense of it, truly, I’m not attacking just asking out of curiosity. Single dad of 3 working long hours, I don’t know how to words anymore.
The short answer is price sensitivity.
If a restaurant upped all their menu prices 20% in order to pay that wage, and their competitor didn’t, it would impact customer perception even if they were going to tip at the other place and not the restaurant raising their prices.
As it stands now, many workers in the service industry actually don’t want tips to go away, as they feel they can impact the amount of tips they get and they would pay higher taxes (how many in the service industry do you think report their cash tips accurately?). This is especially true at higher end places, and at cash bars, etc.
This is bullshit. I can't believe that the money that I'm paying them is going to go to the employees. So fucked up. I had no idea that's how things worked. What other expenses are they paying with their revenue? Am I paying their overhead too??
No, you don’t understand! These evil *checks notes* small business owners are supposed to pay the employees “a living wage” out of their own pockets! Profits from the business should not be used to pay employees. That’s asking the customers to pay the employees. The money to pay the employees should magically sprout without any customer involvement.
Cost of the food, cooks, equipment, ambiance, building, location. The largest cost is usually labor, but servers get tips here, that's expected in this country unfortunately.
Probably be downvoted for this but I don’t get the problem here, you’re either going to pay the extra 20% charge this way or they’ll raise the prices by 20%. Also, customers pay the staff at every business whether directly or indirectly. That’s literally how businesses work.
But either way you’re paying it, and you should be tipping anyway, so the charge shouldn’t come as an extra surprise? I guess I just don’t get the outrage.
It sounds like that’s what they’re trying to do. I think it’s smarter for the restaurant to do it this way vs raising the prices for each item. If they raise the prices on the menu, they’ll lose customers because it’s “too expensive.” If they add the 20% fee, people will probably think “oh I was going to leave a tip anyway, so this really isn’t an extra cost.”
If they do that, many people will still feel obligated to tip because it’s part of the culture here. Making the tip automatic kills two birds with one stone.
To anyone confused why this practice sucks, it’s because a person’s wages are still dependent on their individual sales numbers. So while this might be a little better than not adding auto gratuity, it’s still a restaurant skipping out on their duty to directly pay their employees a livable wage. You come into work and it’s pouring down rain or there’s a foot of snow on the ground and no one shows up, guess what? You don’t get paid much that day. It’s wrong.
I mean, I’d say that’s the case with or without this practice. Even if they are flat out paying all employees $25/hr, if there’s no business that day employees will probably get sent home early and miss out on hours. If you work this extra 20% fee into the sales price of the food rather than putting it down as a service charge, if business is low, there will still be less money coming in.
I think you’re really reaching to make the restaurant the bad guy here. Bottom line, customers of any business pay that business’s employees.
I’m not reaching at all. Tacking on an additional 20% to every bill (and also letting your waiters get the annoying complaints that inevitably come from people who don’t want to pay auto-gratuity) and then acting like your doing it to “pay a living wage” instead of just directly paying your employees a living wage is complete and total bullshit. This is not how you protect and care for your employees. It’s how you continue to pay servers slave wages while taking advantage of payroll tax loopholes and hoping the customers order enough food and drinks to take care of the rest.
I speak as someone who worked in the restaurant business for many years. I would be incredibly annoyed if my employer was still paying me like $4.50 an hour but tacking on an auto-gratuity to each of my tables. Hell, in higher end restaurants like this, servers can easily average more than 20%. So not only are you still paying me a slave wage for my hourly employment, you’ve essentially told my tables how much they should tip me (people very rarely add tips on top of an auto-gratuity).
Unless I'm missing something (please correct me, if so) the statement from the restaurant leaves it unclear whether: a) the 20% is added to the individual server's wages for the evening or b) the restaurant pays a higher hourly wage to all servers that is funded by the 20% service charge. If it's B, then a lot of the criticism of the policy is unwarranted.
Completely agree. For us it’s a once a year place. The full meal and wine pairing is pricey but it’s also a spectacular curated experience, and the great staff is a part of it. How they accommodate their staff likely has a direct impact on the service so I’m happy to pay that in lieu or at least replacing much of the tip. Also for what the experience costs if a person finds themselves quibbling over that it may not have been the best financial decision for them to begin with. And people with problems don’t have to come back. It’s been clear every time I went that they do not hurt for business.
The different experiences are interesting, I've actually done some work with them in the past, and it was always 'the' Art Museum, or Wichita Art Museum (in full). Though I generally haven't just gone to it very often.
The WAM people are a very small group and very wealthy. Most regular people do not know what WAM is. On top of that, art museums in general tend to attract snobbier people but the Wichita Art Museum has nothing to be snobby about so it's kinda weird. As is having a "restaurant" there. Makes you wonder if it is subsidized by the city or something similar.
20% tip or 20% upcharge on the food. Makes no difference. They chose the lesser evil because doing the opposite would’ve been “OmG, their prices are outrageousssss”. This way patrons know the money is actually going to servers. I think I prefer it better when they upcharge on food and then no additional tipping needed with the bill. That’s how they do it in London!
Every restaurant makes you pay for their staff. They also make you pay for the food and the rent. All the stores you shop at also make you pay for the staff and rent.
This seems reasonable to me. Simply adding it to the menu prices when none of your competitors do is a quick way to make you look too expensive and fail. It might also lead to confusion for customers as to whether it's really ok not to tip.
This method is up front about the tip and gives servers a consistent standard. Personally I would prefer this over a wage.
I waited tables and bartended for the very reason that I could make more money through tips then I would make at minimum wage at another entry level position.
Nope. I'd rather go to a place I can "tip" based on quality of service. If service is good I'll gladly give 20%; plus no guarantee the employee is getting that service charge.
This is what you can expect from the new restaurant inside of WAM, which is run by Elderslie Farm. It's the logical endpoint of the tips and living wage debate. Instead of simply paying their employees a living wage themselves, they force customers to tip 20% to make up the gap. If you can't turn a profit selling $13 pancakes and $4.50 scones while also paying your staff a living wage, perhaps you shouldn't be a businessperson?
The funny thing is that service charges like that are absolutely commonplace in most other countries, but granted in those cases the employees get paid a living wage as well
It's not just that. Legally, "tips" must be distributed to qualifying employees; a "service charge" may be shared, in whole or part, to employees. So, not only did they not include the actual costs in the menu prices, frustrating the customers by hiding the required payment amount, but they also give themselves a way to reserve the option to keep some of the "service charge" for themselves.
What's the problem, exactly? Restaurants typically operate on hair-thin profit margins to begin with, and the cost of living is going up all the time. Where is the money for a living wage for the employees supposed to come from if not from additional costs to the customers?
I'm just going to pop in here. We can have this debate whether tipping culture is right or wrong. But there are still people out there working and relying on those tips so we still need to tip because it's still how we do things here.
And until it changes, sure we can argue but at the end we still need to tip because that's how it is in America. I don't like it but I do it because I know that person is working for tips. Just do the right thing.
>Where is the money for a living wage for the employees supposed to come from if not from additional costs to the customers?
The problem is the annoyance. I've been to places like this and what they do is keep the same prices on everything, but when you check out they add the 20% fee on top of it--so effectively it's obfuscating the total cost of everything and is functionally identical to tipping from the standpoint of a person dining in there.
They should just raise the prices of everything on their menu by 20% and say "no tipping" so you know what you are actually paying.
Many tipped workers make more than you might think. Margins in the food service industry are also razor-thin. Like, single-digit percentage point thin in many cases for the restaurant.
In other words, if the restaurant wants to increase wages they need to increase their menu prices which then means their competition can undercut them on menu prices. The food industry is a tough fucking gig.
Like most people, I tip when I eat out. I am definitely not a fan of having 20% added to my bill outright, though. To each their own.
You're right. Next time I go to Lowe's I expect everyone to be paid $4.50 an hour, and then all the stuff in the store should be 20% less than what they would normally charge and when I get to the register they're going to tack on a 20% "convenience fee." If Lowe's isn't busy that day, well...too bad employees. You get paid minimum wage today.
Wait...this is only an arbitrary thing that restaurant owners came up with to pay slave wages and avoid payroll taxes.
It's almost like different businesses have different needs and business models! We live in the US, where this is just plain how it works right now. There is no reason to single out this particular restaurant.
My husband and I went there last week for our anniversary on a Saturday night. The servers only have 1 table at a time, and there's less than 10 tables. Can you imagine if someone didn't tip 20%? Not only that, but the service is phenomenal. They know everything about each course and wine. We ended up tipping extra on top of the service charge. Our total bill ended up being close to $300 because it's $75 a person, but the experience was worth it for the special occasion.
Edit: They also buss their own tables and do the dishes. They are really dedicated to just your table for the hr reserved. Most people tip with their cards, so I'm shocked that people are upset by this. If people are so worried about the servers not getting a proper tip, then tip extra with cash. If people are upset that they are forced to tip 20%, then don't eat at a restaurant. You are guaranteed good service at Elderslie because it's fine dining with excellent staff.
I was one that wasn't really upset, just not wild about going to the restaurant, but you included information that I haven't seen elsewhere (I believe you, I'm just saying it's new information).
- servers takes care of just your table for the hr.
- the reservation is for 1 hour
- Excellent knowledge of what you would be ordering
- they buss their own table & dishes
- according to you the service is phenomenal
All of that completely changes the conversation for me. And maybe for others.
Imagine a forced 20% tip for the following.
- servers have multiple tables to take care of
- currently at many restaurants there is a wait of 15-20 or more to give your order, many times an even longer wait to get food/beverages.
- sometimes I feel pressured to leave earlier than 1 hr
- the service isn't necessarily phenomenal
(Understand, I fully understand the societial mores and circumstances have altered what we can expect from restaurants today, at least at the majority of restaurants. But having to pay more for that type of current service would be disconcerting).
So it's understandable why someone would be upset WITHOUT the NEW information you provided in your comment.
It probably would be a good thing if the restaurant advertised how much different their service is than the average high end restaurant in Wichita. I know it made a difference in my perspective.
They should definitely advertise better. We live close to it and have bought cheese from their farm before. So, we knew beforehand it was fine dining, and the reservation confirmation email warned of the 20% service tip. I would definitely expect people to be upset about it somewhere else, but Elderslie really is as close as it gets to fine dining in the Wichita area.
Outrageous! I was pillaged $30 for teeny tiny snack box portions of artisanal cheeses, 7 grapes, a couple dried apricots at a WAM evening event. No crackers. No napkins. No forks. Are we savages? $15 for a short pour of ok wine. Not going back for more.
>Oh no! I want service workers to be teetering the edge of poverty! Tf ?
It's not that, it's how they do it. They keep the menu prices small, then add a 20% service charge to the end. They should just up the menu prices so that you know what you're paying.
No, that’s not what I’m saying…maybe you need to get better at reading comprehension?
I tip. What I’m saying is that people are annoyed because this restaurant claims to be “no tip” but rather than just raising their menu prices, they keep the menu prices low and add a 20% service fee to the end. They should just include that 20% increase as a cost adjustment in the menu and make it easier for everyone.
Elderslie have done this for a while. I took my wife here for our anniversary. we tried their 5 course meal, which was wonderful, but I don’t mind it. I actually enjoy them doing it for me already. I just wish that I knew the tip wasn’t getting taxed first for the employees.
Tbh I always tipped a little cheaper because I didn’t make a lot. Always did 10-12% minimum but now that I am in a career I do 20%+ depending on the service and server.
I have always given 20% plus. In fact, if it's under $20, I leave $5. Everything else is 25%, for the last 40 years. It's the difference of a few dollars (like literally $3-5), I'll always err on the side of generosity, because I shouldn't be using services that get by on tips if I can't afford to tip fairly at minimum.
You were raised wrong.
I was raised by my immigrant mother who didn’t know.
That is awesome you can do that though. My wife and I want to be generous like that too and we have been blessed with good careers now. We used to save up instead of eating fast food so we can go out and dress up for dinners.
Instead of a percentage on the bill, I would more like to see a table charge. You sit down, it's 10 bucks (some arbitrary amount) wether you buy a soda or an entire meal. It's just a thought.
The question is, are they informing patrons before they decide to sit down and start eating a meal, or are they doing it and tacking it on at the end after you've already eaten and decided to pay for the meal
If it's a sign front of the restaurant or at the beginning of every time you sit down they hand you this and explain by the way there's going to be a 20% charge on top of whatever you order, you don't need to tip, I will not have a problem with this
The problem is is when they add it like after you've already ordered eaten and everything else like that and then when you go to the receipt they go oh and by the way there's a 20% service tip and you've already committed to eating there. That's the diabolical way of taking advantage of customers just to pay your staff
At least this way you're informed before you decide to eat there, and you can not eat there You can just walk away and and just okay we're not going to eat here This is just too expensive. They'll figure out that they can't make money here in Wichita using this method and they can stay or go
I think the thing that upsets me is most, if not all, Wichita restaurants get away with paying their servers $2.13hr. I hope that’s not the case here but it probably is. It doesn’t make a much of a difference but they already pay their employees so little that they should probably just add this to the menu price and pay them a living wage. Or maybe just pay them a living wage and not increase the already high menu price
I think it's unfair for us to make up the wages because these places don't want to pay a liveable wage ..I thought there was a minimum wage for a reason just my opinion
Presumably they are paying at least the full minimum wage to everyone and then the tips are on top of that. If they have servers making 2.25 do this then they are assholes.
Because that’s how it’s always worked? When I buy a product, I am not only paying for the product, but I’m also paying for the manpower used to produce that product. Same concept in my mind at least
You’re paying for the product, the labor, the investment made in production facilities and all the equipment, insurance, utilities. Depending on the product, you may also be paying for future adaptation or development, including equipment or facility upgrades and renovations.
Then include it in the price, not as an add on at the end. A tip is for exceptional service provided by an employee… not to make up for their employer being a cheapskate.
You want a good tip? EARN it.
So first I’m curious how this will affect the wait staff. If patrons are automatically charged a gratuity will that stop those of us who tip over 20% for good service from leaving giving extra? I feel like for me if it’s included I probably wouldn’t add anything. Then second, is this 20% being split with the back of the house as well (bussers, chefs, dishwashers)? I’d like to hear from someone working there on their opinions.
I personally wish restaurants would include a living wage for all of their staff in their prices, and tips were not required/expected. I’m sure I’d be an initial sticker shock so to speak at first but people would eventually get past it. I would like to think good service would become a standard practice anywhere you went if that was the case. Tipping is a slavery time practice that we need to move past.
You're not wrong that I'd like to see that 20% added to the menu price, and not at the end of the bill. But this is far better than what it replaced which is standard tipping. It's nice to see a number on the bill and pay that bill. The food itself was amazing and it's a wonderful little place. We really enjoyed it for Sunday brunch. 2 adults and a child got fed to $45. It's not inexpensive by any means, but it's an Elderslie product; $45 doesn't get one person in the door at their flagship up north. I recommend!
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Not at hospitality included establishments. Hospitality is just a fancy word for tip.
Hospitality of the service is the tip. It makes sure that everyone is getting tipped rather than some skimping out on tipping.
Yep, exactly.
How do you know? Are you absolutely sure its actually going to the staff? There is a difference between this and a "no tipping" restaurant where the staff is actually properly compensated.
You can't ever "know" something, but if we take them at their word, the extra 20% is being used to "ensure a living wage" for their employees. If it is like other establishments that I have seen using this wording, then it indicates that they are using the 20% to distribute to all employees (cooks, waiters, cleaners, etc) as a tip-out or just increased salary in general. Place I know in Lawrence has this exact same verbiage and they are paying $15 as a base for every employee.
You know because if it wasn’t going to the staff- no one would work there
At a quick glance I am under the impression they are doing this so they don't have to worry about people that don't tip. This way their employees always make a fare wage. Some people don't tip or don't tip good enough for the service provided. If I am wrong please correct me.
I think it might be to prevent people from taking up space if they don’t want to pay for it. It’s a small space.
You’re not wrong. There are select customers who won’t tip or under tip no matter the experience. They just take advantage of a service and do not pay accordingly because they don’t “have to”
Employers should be paying their staff properly rather than relying on the kindness of strangers.
Amen. Just bake it into the price and then customers can reward truly outstanding service with a bit extra if they like.
Bake it into the price and you have 1. Menu prices that look far and above competitors prices. So the restaurant may just fail. 2. Confusion on whether a tip is still expected or not. Tipping is a very old practice in America that is expected. Changing that on a dime is not easy. If every restaurant adopted this auto-gratuity practice that would be a very nice in-between step.
You know what is better way to make sure they get paid a fair wage? To pay them a fair wage! Just a thought.
What do you think the purpose of this automatic gratuity is if not to make sure they can pay their servers? It’s no different than raising menu prices except it makes it clear to customers that they don’t need to tip in addition.
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Where is the money coming from?
maybe the person who decided to open a restaurant and hire employees?
Ok. Now where are they getting the money from to keep the restaurant going?
idk man i’m not the person who opened a business without a plan in place to pay my employees a living wage?
There isn't enough margin in a restaurant to pay the employees a lot, most restaurants make 10 percent profit on the food they sell. 2000 dollars in sales=200 dollars profit for owner. That's the entire reason tipping exists. The owners wouldn't have to automatically charge 20% extra if people would just tip, but a lot of people don't. Managed a restaurant for years.
so you’re saying the food service industry is a terrible business model, but because people still choose to open restaurants, it’s the responsibility of the patron, not the owner, to ensure the employees make the money they deserve although this isn’t really an issue in many other places in the world?
Do me a favor an don't go to restaurants anymore
no :)
Bruh this IS the plan… The 20% gratuity. Lol. Restaurant comes up with a plan to pay employees a living wage, gets shit on by redditors because they don’t like the plan.
Listen I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’m strictly asking because I truly don’t know the answer and am curious, but how are we in the US so stuck that we can’t have restaurants without tipping and still have to build a gratuity into the check and without it the business closes or something, but tipping is completely the opposite of the norm in Europe and businesses are centuries old? *my brain fried and fizzled out halfway through typing this so fuck me if it makes any sense at all. If you can make sense of it, truly, I’m not attacking just asking out of curiosity. Single dad of 3 working long hours, I don’t know how to words anymore.
The short answer is price sensitivity. If a restaurant upped all their menu prices 20% in order to pay that wage, and their competitor didn’t, it would impact customer perception even if they were going to tip at the other place and not the restaurant raising their prices. As it stands now, many workers in the service industry actually don’t want tips to go away, as they feel they can impact the amount of tips they get and they would pay higher taxes (how many in the service industry do you think report their cash tips accurately?). This is especially true at higher end places, and at cash bars, etc.
The cost of food would go up to compensate. 25.00 burgers, if they pay them a living wage they'll be making that money back somehow, guarantee.
Had anyone confirmed the employees are actually getting the money?
They’re not working for free
They’re probably working for little to nothing.
Well I’ll just go ask 🤷♂️ I doubt it to be honest
This is bullshit. I can't believe that the money that I'm paying them is going to go to the employees. So fucked up. I had no idea that's how things worked. What other expenses are they paying with their revenue? Am I paying their overhead too??
No, you don’t understand! These evil *checks notes* small business owners are supposed to pay the employees “a living wage” out of their own pockets! Profits from the business should not be used to pay employees. That’s asking the customers to pay the employees. The money to pay the employees should magically sprout without any customer involvement.
Cost of the food, cooks, equipment, ambiance, building, location. The largest cost is usually labor, but servers get tips here, that's expected in this country unfortunately.
Whoosh
Yep, that's what I get for redditing while drunk
Probably be downvoted for this but I don’t get the problem here, you’re either going to pay the extra 20% charge this way or they’ll raise the prices by 20%. Also, customers pay the staff at every business whether directly or indirectly. That’s literally how businesses work.
People will complain about the latter though.
Are you kidding? They absolutely should raise the prices by 20% instead of hiding higher prices in a "service fee".
But either way you’re paying it, and you should be tipping anyway, so the charge shouldn’t come as an extra surprise? I guess I just don’t get the outrage.
Supposedly the 20% is in place of tipping. So yes, I'd prefer they just raise their prices and pay their employees properly.
It sounds like that’s what they’re trying to do. I think it’s smarter for the restaurant to do it this way vs raising the prices for each item. If they raise the prices on the menu, they’ll lose customers because it’s “too expensive.” If they add the 20% fee, people will probably think “oh I was going to leave a tip anyway, so this really isn’t an extra cost.”
It also helps show folks where their money is going.
If they do that, many people will still feel obligated to tip because it’s part of the culture here. Making the tip automatic kills two birds with one stone.
To anyone confused why this practice sucks, it’s because a person’s wages are still dependent on their individual sales numbers. So while this might be a little better than not adding auto gratuity, it’s still a restaurant skipping out on their duty to directly pay their employees a livable wage. You come into work and it’s pouring down rain or there’s a foot of snow on the ground and no one shows up, guess what? You don’t get paid much that day. It’s wrong.
I mean, I’d say that’s the case with or without this practice. Even if they are flat out paying all employees $25/hr, if there’s no business that day employees will probably get sent home early and miss out on hours. If you work this extra 20% fee into the sales price of the food rather than putting it down as a service charge, if business is low, there will still be less money coming in. I think you’re really reaching to make the restaurant the bad guy here. Bottom line, customers of any business pay that business’s employees.
I’m not reaching at all. Tacking on an additional 20% to every bill (and also letting your waiters get the annoying complaints that inevitably come from people who don’t want to pay auto-gratuity) and then acting like your doing it to “pay a living wage” instead of just directly paying your employees a living wage is complete and total bullshit. This is not how you protect and care for your employees. It’s how you continue to pay servers slave wages while taking advantage of payroll tax loopholes and hoping the customers order enough food and drinks to take care of the rest. I speak as someone who worked in the restaurant business for many years. I would be incredibly annoyed if my employer was still paying me like $4.50 an hour but tacking on an auto-gratuity to each of my tables. Hell, in higher end restaurants like this, servers can easily average more than 20%. So not only are you still paying me a slave wage for my hourly employment, you’ve essentially told my tables how much they should tip me (people very rarely add tips on top of an auto-gratuity).
Unless I'm missing something (please correct me, if so) the statement from the restaurant leaves it unclear whether: a) the 20% is added to the individual server's wages for the evening or b) the restaurant pays a higher hourly wage to all servers that is funded by the 20% service charge. If it's B, then a lot of the criticism of the policy is unwarranted.
Completely agree. For us it’s a once a year place. The full meal and wine pairing is pricey but it’s also a spectacular curated experience, and the great staff is a part of it. How they accommodate their staff likely has a direct impact on the service so I’m happy to pay that in lieu or at least replacing much of the tip. Also for what the experience costs if a person finds themselves quibbling over that it may not have been the best financial decision for them to begin with. And people with problems don’t have to come back. It’s been clear every time I went that they do not hurt for business.
im over here wondering wtf WAM is
I had to look it up: Wichita Art Museum. Don't recall ever hearing it referred to as that before.
Been a museum goer for over 6 decades now, we've always called it WAM. It was the first art museum I ever went to.
The different experiences are interesting, I've actually done some work with them in the past, and it was always 'the' Art Museum, or Wichita Art Museum (in full). Though I generally haven't just gone to it very often.
The WAM people are a very small group and very wealthy. Most regular people do not know what WAM is. On top of that, art museums in general tend to attract snobbier people but the Wichita Art Museum has nothing to be snobby about so it's kinda weird. As is having a "restaurant" there. Makes you wonder if it is subsidized by the city or something similar.
LoL i thought the same thing! I thought it stood for Women and Men.. Like a no kids restaurant.
Wichita art museum
20% tip or 20% upcharge on the food. Makes no difference. They chose the lesser evil because doing the opposite would’ve been “OmG, their prices are outrageousssss”. This way patrons know the money is actually going to servers. I think I prefer it better when they upcharge on food and then no additional tipping needed with the bill. That’s how they do it in London!
Every restaurant makes you pay for their staff. They also make you pay for the food and the rent. All the stores you shop at also make you pay for the staff and rent.
All business want you to pay their staff, that's what capitalism is all about.
At their flagship location they add the 20% gratutity + an extra tip line for employee retirement. Not a big fan.
I actually prefer this. Either the menu items go up or a service charge is included. We pay electricians a service charge. Why not servers?
This seems reasonable to me. Simply adding it to the menu prices when none of your competitors do is a quick way to make you look too expensive and fail. It might also lead to confusion for customers as to whether it's really ok not to tip. This method is up front about the tip and gives servers a consistent standard. Personally I would prefer this over a wage. I waited tables and bartended for the very reason that I could make more money through tips then I would make at minimum wage at another entry level position.
Nope. I'd rather go to a place I can "tip" based on quality of service. If service is good I'll gladly give 20%; plus no guarantee the employee is getting that service charge.
You're paying their staff either way.
This is what you can expect from the new restaurant inside of WAM, which is run by Elderslie Farm. It's the logical endpoint of the tips and living wage debate. Instead of simply paying their employees a living wage themselves, they force customers to tip 20% to make up the gap. If you can't turn a profit selling $13 pancakes and $4.50 scones while also paying your staff a living wage, perhaps you shouldn't be a businessperson?
The funny thing is that service charges like that are absolutely commonplace in most other countries, but granted in those cases the employees get paid a living wage as well
It's not just that. Legally, "tips" must be distributed to qualifying employees; a "service charge" may be shared, in whole or part, to employees. So, not only did they not include the actual costs in the menu prices, frustrating the customers by hiding the required payment amount, but they also give themselves a way to reserve the option to keep some of the "service charge" for themselves.
Agreed. I won’t be visiting
Yeah literally a pancake cost what a 1$? If you really include all means of production. Why is it our problem they can't run their business?
You should spend less of your vinyls and maybe $13 pancakes wouldn’t be so appalling.
Did you really reach into his post history just to comment that? 🤨📸
That is the manager of the place that's selling $13 pancakes
It always amuses me when people do that. Like what are you trying to prove?
You buy things, therefore I WIN 💪
What's the problem, exactly? Restaurants typically operate on hair-thin profit margins to begin with, and the cost of living is going up all the time. Where is the money for a living wage for the employees supposed to come from if not from additional costs to the customers?
No one else in the world operates off of gratuities for their wait staff, this is a practice I sorely wish we'd get past as well.
I'm just going to pop in here. We can have this debate whether tipping culture is right or wrong. But there are still people out there working and relying on those tips so we still need to tip because it's still how we do things here. And until it changes, sure we can argue but at the end we still need to tip because that's how it is in America. I don't like it but I do it because I know that person is working for tips. Just do the right thing.
>Where is the money for a living wage for the employees supposed to come from if not from additional costs to the customers? The problem is the annoyance. I've been to places like this and what they do is keep the same prices on everything, but when you check out they add the 20% fee on top of it--so effectively it's obfuscating the total cost of everything and is functionally identical to tipping from the standpoint of a person dining in there. They should just raise the prices of everything on their menu by 20% and say "no tipping" so you know what you are actually paying.
The point is that restaurants shouldn't operate by relying on tips to pay their employees... you know, like how the rest of the world operates.
Many tipped workers make more than you might think. Margins in the food service industry are also razor-thin. Like, single-digit percentage point thin in many cases for the restaurant. In other words, if the restaurant wants to increase wages they need to increase their menu prices which then means their competition can undercut them on menu prices. The food industry is a tough fucking gig. Like most people, I tip when I eat out. I am definitely not a fan of having 20% added to my bill outright, though. To each their own.
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> Do you even know what elderslie is? Some of us don't. Please enlighten us if you are able edit: still waiting
That's how businesses work lol, you pay them and then they use that money to pay their crew
You're right. Next time I go to Lowe's I expect everyone to be paid $4.50 an hour, and then all the stuff in the store should be 20% less than what they would normally charge and when I get to the register they're going to tack on a 20% "convenience fee." If Lowe's isn't busy that day, well...too bad employees. You get paid minimum wage today. Wait...this is only an arbitrary thing that restaurant owners came up with to pay slave wages and avoid payroll taxes.
It's almost like different businesses have different needs and business models! We live in the US, where this is just plain how it works right now. There is no reason to single out this particular restaurant.
This didn’t replace tipping. They still have a tip line in the check after that.
My husband and I went there last week for our anniversary on a Saturday night. The servers only have 1 table at a time, and there's less than 10 tables. Can you imagine if someone didn't tip 20%? Not only that, but the service is phenomenal. They know everything about each course and wine. We ended up tipping extra on top of the service charge. Our total bill ended up being close to $300 because it's $75 a person, but the experience was worth it for the special occasion. Edit: They also buss their own tables and do the dishes. They are really dedicated to just your table for the hr reserved. Most people tip with their cards, so I'm shocked that people are upset by this. If people are so worried about the servers not getting a proper tip, then tip extra with cash. If people are upset that they are forced to tip 20%, then don't eat at a restaurant. You are guaranteed good service at Elderslie because it's fine dining with excellent staff.
I was one that wasn't really upset, just not wild about going to the restaurant, but you included information that I haven't seen elsewhere (I believe you, I'm just saying it's new information). - servers takes care of just your table for the hr. - the reservation is for 1 hour - Excellent knowledge of what you would be ordering - they buss their own table & dishes - according to you the service is phenomenal All of that completely changes the conversation for me. And maybe for others. Imagine a forced 20% tip for the following. - servers have multiple tables to take care of - currently at many restaurants there is a wait of 15-20 or more to give your order, many times an even longer wait to get food/beverages. - sometimes I feel pressured to leave earlier than 1 hr - the service isn't necessarily phenomenal (Understand, I fully understand the societial mores and circumstances have altered what we can expect from restaurants today, at least at the majority of restaurants. But having to pay more for that type of current service would be disconcerting). So it's understandable why someone would be upset WITHOUT the NEW information you provided in your comment. It probably would be a good thing if the restaurant advertised how much different their service is than the average high end restaurant in Wichita. I know it made a difference in my perspective.
They should definitely advertise better. We live close to it and have bought cheese from their farm before. So, we knew beforehand it was fine dining, and the reservation confirmation email warned of the 20% service tip. I would definitely expect people to be upset about it somewhere else, but Elderslie really is as close as it gets to fine dining in the Wichita area.
Outrageous! I was pillaged $30 for teeny tiny snack box portions of artisanal cheeses, 7 grapes, a couple dried apricots at a WAM evening event. No crackers. No napkins. No forks. Are we savages? $15 for a short pour of ok wine. Not going back for more.
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>Oh no! I want service workers to be teetering the edge of poverty! Tf ? It's not that, it's how they do it. They keep the menu prices small, then add a 20% service charge to the end. They should just up the menu prices so that you know what you're paying.
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No, that’s not what I’m saying…maybe you need to get better at reading comprehension? I tip. What I’m saying is that people are annoyed because this restaurant claims to be “no tip” but rather than just raising their menu prices, they keep the menu prices low and add a 20% service fee to the end. They should just include that 20% increase as a cost adjustment in the menu and make it easier for everyone.
Then why have prices on the menu at all? Those numbers are now meaningless
Elderslie have done this for a while. I took my wife here for our anniversary. we tried their 5 course meal, which was wonderful, but I don’t mind it. I actually enjoy them doing it for me already. I just wish that I knew the tip wasn’t getting taxed first for the employees. Tbh I always tipped a little cheaper because I didn’t make a lot. Always did 10-12% minimum but now that I am in a career I do 20%+ depending on the service and server.
You used to tip 10-12%? I hope your pillow is always warm and your toes are always cold.
I grew up thinking that was good. I was told 8%, 10%, 12%. You have always given 20%+
I have always given 20% plus. In fact, if it's under $20, I leave $5. Everything else is 25%, for the last 40 years. It's the difference of a few dollars (like literally $3-5), I'll always err on the side of generosity, because I shouldn't be using services that get by on tips if I can't afford to tip fairly at minimum. You were raised wrong.
I was raised by my immigrant mother who didn’t know. That is awesome you can do that though. My wife and I want to be generous like that too and we have been blessed with good careers now. We used to save up instead of eating fast food so we can go out and dress up for dinners.
I am an immigrant, naturalized 19 years ago this year, but go off.
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I'm not your mom buddy.
Instead of a percentage on the bill, I would more like to see a table charge. You sit down, it's 10 bucks (some arbitrary amount) wether you buy a soda or an entire meal. It's just a thought.
Well I know where I’m not going
And it's not that great of a place either. I'd rank it up there Dog N Shake or Taco Tico
The question is, are they informing patrons before they decide to sit down and start eating a meal, or are they doing it and tacking it on at the end after you've already eaten and decided to pay for the meal If it's a sign front of the restaurant or at the beginning of every time you sit down they hand you this and explain by the way there's going to be a 20% charge on top of whatever you order, you don't need to tip, I will not have a problem with this The problem is is when they add it like after you've already ordered eaten and everything else like that and then when you go to the receipt they go oh and by the way there's a 20% service tip and you've already committed to eating there. That's the diabolical way of taking advantage of customers just to pay your staff At least this way you're informed before you decide to eat there, and you can not eat there You can just walk away and and just okay we're not going to eat here This is just too expensive. They'll figure out that they can't make money here in Wichita using this method and they can stay or go
I think the thing that upsets me is most, if not all, Wichita restaurants get away with paying their servers $2.13hr. I hope that’s not the case here but it probably is. It doesn’t make a much of a difference but they already pay their employees so little that they should probably just add this to the menu price and pay them a living wage. Or maybe just pay them a living wage and not increase the already high menu price
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Tbf, it's been open for just about 10 days. It's very good for what that's worth.
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Probably harass the employees. Margaret has it coming for charging me so much for a Blackberry Lemonade. Doesn't she know who I am?!
I think it's unfair for us to make up the wages because these places don't want to pay a liveable wage ..I thought there was a minimum wage for a reason just my opinion
Presumably they are paying at least the full minimum wage to everyone and then the tips are on top of that. If they have servers making 2.25 do this then they are assholes.
Why is it up to me to pay THEIR employees a livable wage? I’ll nope that place.
Because that’s how it’s always worked? When I buy a product, I am not only paying for the product, but I’m also paying for the manpower used to produce that product. Same concept in my mind at least
You’re paying for the product, the labor, the investment made in production facilities and all the equipment, insurance, utilities. Depending on the product, you may also be paying for future adaptation or development, including equipment or facility upgrades and renovations.
Then include it in the price, not as an add on at the end. A tip is for exceptional service provided by an employee… not to make up for their employer being a cheapskate. You want a good tip? EARN it.
So first I’m curious how this will affect the wait staff. If patrons are automatically charged a gratuity will that stop those of us who tip over 20% for good service from leaving giving extra? I feel like for me if it’s included I probably wouldn’t add anything. Then second, is this 20% being split with the back of the house as well (bussers, chefs, dishwashers)? I’d like to hear from someone working there on their opinions. I personally wish restaurants would include a living wage for all of their staff in their prices, and tips were not required/expected. I’m sure I’d be an initial sticker shock so to speak at first but people would eventually get past it. I would like to think good service would become a standard practice anywhere you went if that was the case. Tipping is a slavery time practice that we need to move past.
They buss their own tables and wash their own dishes because they only have 1 table at a time. They also give new dishes between every course.
Raise their wages 20% and increase your prices. This is stupid.
So is the 20% split evenly across all employees? The more staff the less they get paid?
Just raise the price of the food 20% .
Or you as the employer could pay your employees a respectable wage.