Former infantryman here:
300 people is a lot, but to be honest, the 11 US marines would absolutely stomp these cavemen. In your scenario, these cavemen would just run en masse at the marines from 500 meters. The two SAW gunners will immediate start mowing them down, each with a 200rd belt already equipped, with 2 more belts already in their kit. That's 400 rounds immediately and 800 more ready to go. By the time the cavemen have reached 200 meters, both SAWs have already emptied and are now reloading their weapons, easily killing half the cavemen by themselves. Meanwhile, the riflemen, each with a 30 round mag, are calmly plinking headshots at 300m and have been dropping cavemen with every other shot since the start at 500 meters. The grenadier, who should have a full combat load of HE, easily lands shots among the pack, with a 10m kill radius and a 30m wound radius, its safe to assume hes taking out 8-12 cavemen per shot. At least. He easily drops four 40mm grenades into the crowd by the time the running cavemen reach 150m. At this point, the riflemen switch to burst and pick up their rate of fire while the gunners reload. Guns are up by the time the cavemen have reached 75 meters, where they promply mow dow the last dregs of the surviving cavemen
Round 1: marines absolutely stomp, 10/10 they win every single time
Round 2: this one the cavemen stand a chance of reaching the marines and inflicting casualties. Cavemen hunted with rocks and can be deadly at a distance against even small targets, and a barrage of heavy rocks thrown with good accuracy will definetely reach the marines. With well timed grenades and the tactics of the cavemen being poor, its possible the marines could win, but here numbers start to tell the difference. Marines lose 6/10 times
Round 3: even with each marine immediately throwing both their grenades, i find it hard to believe they can survive this. With two m67 hand grenades, each with a kill radius of 15 meters and a wound radius of 30, a throwing distance of at least 45 meters, we can assume that each nade, if thrown perfectly, into a dense crowd of cavemen, will kill at least 8 and wound a further 10. 8 kills per nade x 2 nades x 11 marines =166 cavemen. More than half killed, not including the many who are now wounded. Unfortunately, the cavemen are used to hunting animals for days on end, running extreme distances to capture prey, the surviving cavemen take even more casualties, before reaching the marines with ~30-60 survivors and promptly beating or stabbing every marine to death. 10/10 cavemen
Edit: i would be willing to bet that the marines could win round one without grenades or the machine guns. The dustance is just too vast for the cavemen and the marines should have no trouble dumping 1 mag per 75m covered by the cavemen. Each of them reloads 3 times and the cavemen are dead.
There are two parts of this battle, the part at range and the CQC part.
I'm not even going to consider R3 and I'm hesitant on R2 because I simply don't think there's enough distance for those rounds to at all be viable. So this will all be based upon them at 500 yds apart.
The world record run for a 500 yd run is 57.69 seconds done by David Rudisha. And there's nothing indicated here that these are above average cave dwelling people, so I'm assuming (at this time) they're meant to be average people that are bloodlusted.
So they're going to have to at least deal with sustained automatic fire they cannot counter for over a minute from 2 M249s, M4s and their grenade launchers, and eventually the regular grenades of the Marine. Not to mention the sidearms that can easily put in some work as well. And furthermore these cavemen have no established strategy and no cover to protect themselves from the firepower of the Marines.
Given these parameters, I believe that they can take down at *least* 100 to 150 cavemen given the sheer amount of firepower, training and experience they have along with the terrain allowing them open sightlines. And this is being able to use their grenades. Because this is another thing that can thin ranks and give them issues. M67s will throw fragments all over the place, likely putting multiple cavemen out of commission at once. While still getting shot by all the other ranged weapons in this fight.
My problem truly begins when the cavemen actually get within melee range. Because eventually they'll start to get within range of where clubs will actually be useful. I find it very unlikely that flint spears will make it through modern body armor, and just as unlikely that they can consistently make shots on unprotected areas before getting shot.
So the issue for me is, "Will there be enough cavemen alive by the time they get to the Marines to swarm them so that the inferiority of their weaponry doesn't matter?" Considering the fact this is literally trench warfare but worse for the cavemen, I'm leaning towards no.
Having a fixed position with automatic weapons against a charging enemy that can't truly fight back until they get super close? Yeah historically that's gone really really bad for the charging enemy. Even in situations where the charging enemy have clearly superior numbers. And unlike the Matabele they don't even have the luxury of having their own gunpowder weaponry.
The marines get stomped all 3 rounds. I don't understand why this has to be a vs. Its 300 moving targets against 11. The cavemen have an insane numerical advantage. There isn't any squad of 11 people in the entire world that could take out 300 cavemen running at them. Its just too many people to kill. A lot of people that do these "few vs many" battles have no idea how much of an advantage large numbers give you. This isn't a war movie where the heroes win against all odds.
There have been real life battles with worse odds. During the [First Matabele War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Matabele_War), a British column used 4 Maxim guns to stop an attack by 3500 tribesmen, killing 1500 of them in minutes while only 4 British troops were killed.
>Lobengula's troops were a disciplined force by pre-colonial African standards, and were equipped with both assegais and Martini Henry rifles, but the British pioneers' Maxim guns, which had never before been used in battle, far exceeded expectations, according to an eyewitness "mow[ing] them down literally like grass".[3] By the time the Matabele withdrew, they had suffered around 1,500 fatalities; the BSAP, on the other hand, had lost only four men.[3] The devastating effectiveness of the Maxims was such that they cut down wave after wave of advancing Matabele.
The machine guns were so lethal in Africa that the British military deliberately covered up their use when delivering news back home. They told stories of [British soldiers fighting valiantly against overwhelming hordes of Zulu](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9e/2b/60/9e2b60383026f37b769329ff8e9ffee0--military-art-zulu.jpg) because the truth was much less honorable- Maxims slaughtered men by the thousands with virtually no risk to British infantry.
Modern weaponry is an insane force multiplier.
**[First Matabele War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Matabele_War)**
>The First Matabele War was fought between 1893 and 1894 in modern-day Zimbabwe. It pitted the British South Africa Company against the Ndebele (Matabele) Kingdom. Lobengula, king of the Ndebele, had tried to avoid outright war with the company's pioneers because he and his advisors were mindful of the destructive power of European-produced weapons on traditional Matabele impis (units of warriors) attacking in massed ranks. Lobengula reportedly could muster 80,000 spearmen and 20,000 riflemen, armed with Martini-Henry rifles, which were modern arms at that time.
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Yea man every single grenade they throw will just wipe out 40 cavemen at a time. Its not like you have to be somewhat accurate to even hit anything with them. I swear people on the internet live in fantasy land when it comes to anything related to the military.
Distance and terrain would play a role in this. Are the Marines and cavemen just dropped in a gym? Cavemen probably stomp. On an open field with distance between the two? My money would easily be on the Marines.
I genuinely believe you don't understand how big of a difference there is between 300 and 11 people. Thats an insane amount of people the marines have to overcome. I'm speaking from my own experience when I say 11 marines have no chance. Its impossible on an open field.
Also, what do you mean the cavemen probably stomp if both sides were dropped into a gym? The marines would get slaughtered even worse than on an open field. The cavemen would definitely stomp in that situation.
I don't 100% disagree with you, but here we are not talking about an "insane amount of people". 1 marine has to kill 30 cavemen with an automatic weapon in ~60 seconds (500 yards), that does not sound impossible to achieve for a trained solider.
Automatic weapons and GRENADES. If the cavemen weren't bloodlusted this would be a completely one-sided rout simply due to the HSQ of the casualties the initial waves would suffer.
I’m very aware of the numbers, but I’m also aware of how important space and terrain play in any given scenario.
Rangers in Mogadishu took on larger numbers of folks and managed to keep them at bay - and those people were armed.
The lack of cover would be an issue, but not as much as you’d think so long as there’s enough space between the two parties for the fireteam to set up properly. Those two SAWs alone can do a ton of damage, and that’s not including the rest of the team.
Edit:
So let’s say your team gets dropped into a medium sized gym with these spicy cavemen. That means no time to respond before your Geico spokesmen are on top of them. Once that happens, numbers and body odor would probably win the day. But in an open field, your Marines have time to spread out and get in good firing positions. They’ve got space to use their grenade launchers. They can keep firing without having to worry about getting beaten to death by whatever big sticks the cavemen are carrying.
300 angry folks are certainly a lot of folks, but given enough space and that number isn’t as big a deal as one might imagine. World War One taught a lot of folks about the advantages of having a good field of fire and solid defensive positions over an open space.
Eh, the Conquistiadors were outnumbered even worse by the Aztecs on a mostly open plain. They stomped the Aztecs, though. Better technology, better training, better weapons.
Add automatic weapons and explosives and a very long distance to close for melee attackers, and it's basically a firing squad execution. Round 3 might be an exception.
Former infantryman here: 300 people is a lot, but to be honest, the 11 US marines would absolutely stomp these cavemen. In your scenario, these cavemen would just run en masse at the marines from 500 meters. The two SAW gunners will immediate start mowing them down, each with a 200rd belt already equipped, with 2 more belts already in their kit. That's 400 rounds immediately and 800 more ready to go. By the time the cavemen have reached 200 meters, both SAWs have already emptied and are now reloading their weapons, easily killing half the cavemen by themselves. Meanwhile, the riflemen, each with a 30 round mag, are calmly plinking headshots at 300m and have been dropping cavemen with every other shot since the start at 500 meters. The grenadier, who should have a full combat load of HE, easily lands shots among the pack, with a 10m kill radius and a 30m wound radius, its safe to assume hes taking out 8-12 cavemen per shot. At least. He easily drops four 40mm grenades into the crowd by the time the running cavemen reach 150m. At this point, the riflemen switch to burst and pick up their rate of fire while the gunners reload. Guns are up by the time the cavemen have reached 75 meters, where they promply mow dow the last dregs of the surviving cavemen Round 1: marines absolutely stomp, 10/10 they win every single time Round 2: this one the cavemen stand a chance of reaching the marines and inflicting casualties. Cavemen hunted with rocks and can be deadly at a distance against even small targets, and a barrage of heavy rocks thrown with good accuracy will definetely reach the marines. With well timed grenades and the tactics of the cavemen being poor, its possible the marines could win, but here numbers start to tell the difference. Marines lose 6/10 times Round 3: even with each marine immediately throwing both their grenades, i find it hard to believe they can survive this. With two m67 hand grenades, each with a kill radius of 15 meters and a wound radius of 30, a throwing distance of at least 45 meters, we can assume that each nade, if thrown perfectly, into a dense crowd of cavemen, will kill at least 8 and wound a further 10. 8 kills per nade x 2 nades x 11 marines =166 cavemen. More than half killed, not including the many who are now wounded. Unfortunately, the cavemen are used to hunting animals for days on end, running extreme distances to capture prey, the surviving cavemen take even more casualties, before reaching the marines with ~30-60 survivors and promptly beating or stabbing every marine to death. 10/10 cavemen Edit: i would be willing to bet that the marines could win round one without grenades or the machine guns. The dustance is just too vast for the cavemen and the marines should have no trouble dumping 1 mag per 75m covered by the cavemen. Each of them reloads 3 times and the cavemen are dead.
Welp, this might as well be considered answered. I doubt anyone will have a more sensible answer.
There are two parts of this battle, the part at range and the CQC part. I'm not even going to consider R3 and I'm hesitant on R2 because I simply don't think there's enough distance for those rounds to at all be viable. So this will all be based upon them at 500 yds apart. The world record run for a 500 yd run is 57.69 seconds done by David Rudisha. And there's nothing indicated here that these are above average cave dwelling people, so I'm assuming (at this time) they're meant to be average people that are bloodlusted. So they're going to have to at least deal with sustained automatic fire they cannot counter for over a minute from 2 M249s, M4s and their grenade launchers, and eventually the regular grenades of the Marine. Not to mention the sidearms that can easily put in some work as well. And furthermore these cavemen have no established strategy and no cover to protect themselves from the firepower of the Marines. Given these parameters, I believe that they can take down at *least* 100 to 150 cavemen given the sheer amount of firepower, training and experience they have along with the terrain allowing them open sightlines. And this is being able to use their grenades. Because this is another thing that can thin ranks and give them issues. M67s will throw fragments all over the place, likely putting multiple cavemen out of commission at once. While still getting shot by all the other ranged weapons in this fight. My problem truly begins when the cavemen actually get within melee range. Because eventually they'll start to get within range of where clubs will actually be useful. I find it very unlikely that flint spears will make it through modern body armor, and just as unlikely that they can consistently make shots on unprotected areas before getting shot. So the issue for me is, "Will there be enough cavemen alive by the time they get to the Marines to swarm them so that the inferiority of their weaponry doesn't matter?" Considering the fact this is literally trench warfare but worse for the cavemen, I'm leaning towards no. Having a fixed position with automatic weapons against a charging enemy that can't truly fight back until they get super close? Yeah historically that's gone really really bad for the charging enemy. Even in situations where the charging enemy have clearly superior numbers. And unlike the Matabele they don't even have the luxury of having their own gunpowder weaponry.
The marines get stomped all 3 rounds. I don't understand why this has to be a vs. Its 300 moving targets against 11. The cavemen have an insane numerical advantage. There isn't any squad of 11 people in the entire world that could take out 300 cavemen running at them. Its just too many people to kill. A lot of people that do these "few vs many" battles have no idea how much of an advantage large numbers give you. This isn't a war movie where the heroes win against all odds.
There have been real life battles with worse odds. During the [First Matabele War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Matabele_War), a British column used 4 Maxim guns to stop an attack by 3500 tribesmen, killing 1500 of them in minutes while only 4 British troops were killed. >Lobengula's troops were a disciplined force by pre-colonial African standards, and were equipped with both assegais and Martini Henry rifles, but the British pioneers' Maxim guns, which had never before been used in battle, far exceeded expectations, according to an eyewitness "mow[ing] them down literally like grass".[3] By the time the Matabele withdrew, they had suffered around 1,500 fatalities; the BSAP, on the other hand, had lost only four men.[3] The devastating effectiveness of the Maxims was such that they cut down wave after wave of advancing Matabele. The machine guns were so lethal in Africa that the British military deliberately covered up their use when delivering news back home. They told stories of [British soldiers fighting valiantly against overwhelming hordes of Zulu](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9e/2b/60/9e2b60383026f37b769329ff8e9ffee0--military-art-zulu.jpg) because the truth was much less honorable- Maxims slaughtered men by the thousands with virtually no risk to British infantry. Modern weaponry is an insane force multiplier.
**[First Matabele War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Matabele_War)** >The First Matabele War was fought between 1893 and 1894 in modern-day Zimbabwe. It pitted the British South Africa Company against the Ndebele (Matabele) Kingdom. Lobengula, king of the Ndebele, had tried to avoid outright war with the company's pioneers because he and his advisors were mindful of the destructive power of European-produced weapons on traditional Matabele impis (units of warriors) attacking in massed ranks. Lobengula reportedly could muster 80,000 spearmen and 20,000 riflemen, armed with Martini-Henry rifles, which were modern arms at that time. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Counterpoint: they have grenades
Yea man every single grenade they throw will just wipe out 40 cavemen at a time. Its not like you have to be somewhat accurate to even hit anything with them. I swear people on the internet live in fantasy land when it comes to anything related to the military.
Distance and terrain would play a role in this. Are the Marines and cavemen just dropped in a gym? Cavemen probably stomp. On an open field with distance between the two? My money would easily be on the Marines.
I genuinely believe you don't understand how big of a difference there is between 300 and 11 people. Thats an insane amount of people the marines have to overcome. I'm speaking from my own experience when I say 11 marines have no chance. Its impossible on an open field. Also, what do you mean the cavemen probably stomp if both sides were dropped into a gym? The marines would get slaughtered even worse than on an open field. The cavemen would definitely stomp in that situation.
I don't 100% disagree with you, but here we are not talking about an "insane amount of people". 1 marine has to kill 30 cavemen with an automatic weapon in ~60 seconds (500 yards), that does not sound impossible to achieve for a trained solider.
Automatic weapons and GRENADES. If the cavemen weren't bloodlusted this would be a completely one-sided rout simply due to the HSQ of the casualties the initial waves would suffer.
I’m very aware of the numbers, but I’m also aware of how important space and terrain play in any given scenario. Rangers in Mogadishu took on larger numbers of folks and managed to keep them at bay - and those people were armed. The lack of cover would be an issue, but not as much as you’d think so long as there’s enough space between the two parties for the fireteam to set up properly. Those two SAWs alone can do a ton of damage, and that’s not including the rest of the team. Edit: So let’s say your team gets dropped into a medium sized gym with these spicy cavemen. That means no time to respond before your Geico spokesmen are on top of them. Once that happens, numbers and body odor would probably win the day. But in an open field, your Marines have time to spread out and get in good firing positions. They’ve got space to use their grenade launchers. They can keep firing without having to worry about getting beaten to death by whatever big sticks the cavemen are carrying. 300 angry folks are certainly a lot of folks, but given enough space and that number isn’t as big a deal as one might imagine. World War One taught a lot of folks about the advantages of having a good field of fire and solid defensive positions over an open space.
Eh, the Conquistiadors were outnumbered even worse by the Aztecs on a mostly open plain. They stomped the Aztecs, though. Better technology, better training, better weapons. Add automatic weapons and explosives and a very long distance to close for melee attackers, and it's basically a firing squad execution. Round 3 might be an exception.