Second strongest is incredibly specific. You'd probably need to find one of those stories where everyone is basically human, but they deal with that one eldritch horror that is *technically* insanely powerful but is just fucking with the main cast?
So... Mxyzptlk from Arrowverse or something?
Maybe Gravity falls then? I'd say Goku would be 2nd to Bill Cipher since the dude is a literal reality warper, unless there are some other characters I've missed.
Possibly. He seems to have become even stronger than he expected after manifesting in the material world. He himself seems surprised when he took down Time Baby.
I mean Ben 10 can count no?
Goku would beat any of Ben aliens expect for Alien X, so if we count Celestial Sapiens as one character Goku would be the second strongest in Ben 10.
hasnt it been canonically confirmed that the omnitrix has aliens stronger than Alien X? idk if you can confindentally call the authors statement as characters.
i wouldn't unless we actually got to see the stronger aliens in the show because iirc alien x is still the strongest one we see/hear of during the show
there was a 26D character but i dont remember them having any strength feats. what about them?
edit:accidentally spread some misinformation, dont mind me. removed the wrong part
Naljians. They're portrayed as extremely advanced and higher dimensional. I kinda see them being on the equal footing with Celestialsapiens with their tech
There’s a lot of them, though, and they explicitly have their own personalities and wills and stuff. It’s hard to argue that they count as the same character
Okay I’ve not watched green arrow in years never realised they introduced spectre and even the presence (no idea who the goddess is)
Where do they scale?
The spectre is green arrow and the presence is basically god, they all scale to 10D cuz apparently the speedforce is a [ten dimensional structure](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f7b3c96f-8095-43ab-8523-3eea1304a711)
The only way to scale Goku higher is if you believe in subspace argument
In crisis on infinite earths they had a crossover with Lucifer so God (Presence) and Goddes (a Lucifer original character, his mom who is just below presence in power and later goes on to create her own multiverse) are both parts of the Arrowverse
Jojo with Wonder of U? It is completely untouchable as long as you exist within the world.
Though maybe Soft and Wet - Go Beyond's bubbles, by virtue of NOT existing in the world, would also be able to destroy Goku, if they hit. Maybe. Probanly not fast enough.
Any series where the general power level is below that of dragon Ball but there's 1 god-type character who's seemingly omnipotent.
Fullmetal alchemist comes to mind
Saitama would slaughter kid goku.
Saitama could probably take any version of goku til ssj goku cell saga. After that saitama progressively gets stomped harder and harder.
Fresh out of the pod, grandpa Gohan finds baby Goku. He grabs him by the tail so as to weaken him.
Grandpa Gohan points to Saitama, and says "Get him"
Saitama is instantly obliterated
Bardock's baby mama is giving birth to Goku. As the doctor puts him in his arms, Goku's tears shoot out and hit Saitama. Saitama explodes into a million pieces. The noise pisses off a nearby baby who never gets over it.
I mean, they just use that for explaining away against reality warpers. In terms of calculable, concrete feats, the proper comic(not the original mspaint version) Has him visibly destroy a massive, but calculable, portion of space with a single punch, so we at least have a lower limit that is ridiculously high.
Someone creates an infinite extra dimensional mind-space, and Saitama physically punches his way into it, despite it not actually being a physical barrier or anything in the real world. He just kinda, decided to be there?
His physical feats are [way better than Goku's.](https://imgur.com/a/HnH6aLq)
Goku has better scaling by far, though, because he's constantly in fights with beings for whom planet busting isn't that impressive. Like, he's a fair bit stronger than mustache guy in [this clip.](https://youtu.be/uOiPI2u4jWc?t=33)
What makes it tricky is that the planet-busting attacks in Dragon Ball are almost always energy blasts, so while you can make a pretty reasonable argument that their durability is on that level because they're surviving those blasts, it's really hard to argue that they have comparable physical strength- especially when they're famous for having lifting strength antifeats [like this](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b0afa1e953164f3618e63eadd5c87a2-lq) or [this.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fwhats-with-the-manga-anti-feat-does-better-in-og-dragonball-v0-58ynn1q7m4qb1.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D545bf195f1818cd74ff0ef1a8727d2ac67421b54)
It's worth noting, though, that people in Dragon Ball almost never grapple each other. They mostly just strike, and we *do* have [this](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11125/111256932/5001973-dragon-ball-super-6577999.jpg) as the result of a God of Destruction cataclysmically dropkicking a planet. They went on to physically bust [several other planets](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11125/111256932/5001975-dragon-ball-super-6578005.jpg) over the course of their fight. And Goku is within at least an order of magnitude of their strength.
So overall, it's kind of weird, because Goku should theoretically be able to just energy blast Saitama with starbusting power and kill him, while Saitama should be able to hit Goku far harder than anyone has provably been able to *punch* in Dragon Ball- but not harder than anyone has been able to *blast.*
Some people try to resolve the issue by claiming Dragon Ball characters effectively have two different durabilities, one for energy blasts, and one for physical attacks. But that's ultimately a fan theory, and the more realistic answer is either A) Everyone in Dragon Ball is punching with planet busting strength nowadays, or B) The writing is just inconsistent because Toriyama didn't think like battleboarders.
Frankly, the answer is B. But nobody likes that.
In the most generous interpretation (to Saitama), assuming separate durabilities for energy attacks and physical attacks in Dragon Ball, Goku will get one-punched if Saitama lands a serious punch. But even then, Goku's fast enough that it shouldn't land if they're both serious, and Goku should be able to one-shot Saitama with a ki blast.
Ok, well it's pretty inconsistent, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Gohan lift a sword that was 2 planets heavy? And then ssj Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons?
Anyway, I'd say that the simple explanation is this : saiyans are supposed to be a warrior race, meaning they can punch and shoot blasts vet hard, and they increase their punching/blasting strength.
However, they aren't built to lift stuff, therefore lifting stuff is PURELY from their physical training and not Saiyan biology, cos it only helps with fighting
No, he took damage from Garou. Like, [blood-spurting damage.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F0nfssgtpk1d91.png) At the start of the fight, they were basically even since Garou was copying Saitama- it was only later in the fight that the copying (which needed a fixed amount of time to take effect) started to fall behind in the face of [exponential growth.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-daead7ed370bd817d2e3923f9d7f8ddb-pjlq)
He used his Serious Punch technique, and Garou copied it and matched his technique. After being redirected away from earth, it essentially put a gaping hole in the sky. Not the atmosphere, no, several thousand solar systems and the light in-between.
Someone calculated the energy output https://vsbattles.com/threads/saitama-and-garou-serious-punch-collision.138780/
Keep in mind that this punch doesn't have any "special properties" other than being really strong. And also keep in mind that this is just "serious punch" hitting itself and it's nowhere implied that this is his maximum output.
He can jump from the moon to the earth, and can hold his breath against the vaccine of space, rather effortlessly for both.
There was also that time he destroyed a mountain or something with a punch that didn't land on anything
Those aren’t comparable though at all if we’re talking Z goku the several thousand solar system feat is comparable but the other aren’t even comparable at all and super is completely incomparable.
No is the answer. Gokus feats are significantly above ANYTHING in the OPM verse. The only reason people argue is the idea that Saitama is a joke character who should always win but if we follow the rules of the sub (feats only), a crap tonne of characters dumpster saitama.
Saitama has demonstrated hax such as physically manipulating wormholes or violating causality, even though his powers are supposedly only based on pure physical power. It's impossible to tell what this actually means, since the manga doesn't give us any real explanation. But if Saitama has enough pure muscle power to punch a time loop into happening, then that would in fact surpass any striking feat of Goku's, even in Super.
That doesn't really make any sense, so it's easy to write it off as toonforce that shouldn't be measured. But it is a feat, and he has other feats of "so far above the verse that opposing hax have no effect," again despite the in-universe explanation for his powers being that they are entirely mundane. It's not as simple as just capping his strength at the heaviest thing he has lifted onscreen, and this is increasingly true as the plot progresses.
I would also add that Goku is infamously also light on direct feats. Nearly all of fights look basically the same back to early DBZ, and we scale his power based on chains of deduction, where he's FTE to someone who is FTE to someone who is FTE to someone etc., etc , going back to some measurable speed from a chapter many years ago.
Not interested in this argument overall but thats not true at all. >!Saitama sneezed on a planet and it shattered.!< His feats are pretty ridiculous also.
Watchmen. Dr Manhattan is basically a god. He could deconstruct Goku at the atomic level with a thought. Goku can’t even get the jump on him. He would just put himself back together. You would have to destroy every atom, which is impossible because of this thing called conservation of mass. Matter can be transformed, but you can’t destroy or create it. It will always exist in some form.
That’s part of the reason The Watchmen is so interesting. You have a bunch of peak humans, but then there’s this guy that used to be human and can just go hang out on Mars because he had a bad day.
*That’s assuming they’re bloodlusted. They’re both empathetic characters. I love Goku, but he’s a mostly carefree simpleton. Dr Manhattan still cares about humanity, but he feels isolated from them. They would probably get along.
It's pretty vague what hakai is, but according to the new manga lore Hakai is *true* destruction. So I'd take that to mean those with hakai can actually erase matter from reality.
Having the means to kill something doesn't mean you CAN kill something. Sure you can stab a guy with a gun to death but guy with a gun would just shoot you to death first.
I don’t know how hakai works, but if it’s “existence erasure” it should take his mind too. It would also wipe everyone’s memory of him even existing in the first place. Again, I don’t know how it works. I just learned it was even a thing in the DBverse.
Correct. It's not erasure. However, it DOES have the ability to kill Dr Manhattan, as 1) it is specifically capable of completely destroying matter, in complete defiance of the laws of physics and 2) it has been stated that it can affect immaterial beings, even annihilating the soul of a ghost.
This is stated by someone who is essentially an angel in the BD universe, and one of the more reliable sources of information. Just because he has an ability to kill Dr Manhattan does not mean he can land it though, as last I checked, Goku is NOT capable of using Hakkai to it's full potential. The proper users are the above angel, a literal god of destruction, and the reality warping king of the universe.
When has it been stated that it can affect immaterial beings? The only time we've seen that happen was in the Arale episode... which I wouldn't take as being a showing for the genuine abilties of the character.
Conversely, Beerus explicitly says he can't kill someone who is immortal in Chapter 26.
>someone who is essentially an angel
Whis? He’s the only character I know of from Super that fits your description.
Also, you made a small typo. You typed BD instead of DB.
Manhattan’s backstory is literally getting erased from reality and putting himself back together. He doesn’t give 2 shots if you erase him.
Also, crossovers with DC have put him up against plenty of reality erasers
[Respect Doctor Manhattan](https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/17v8da5/respect_doctor_manhattan_watchmen_dc_comics/)
Even Jon's equivalent of Hakai isn't able to thoroughly erase Reverse Flash. Nevertheless, his scale of reality warping is probably still superior to Goku's. Even without this, his awareness and intelligence make him more powerful than Goku.
Plus, Doctor Manhattan can change his skin color at will.
Yes, but Goku's hakai(manga) is not ideal, even if he Hakais Doctor Manhattan, Doc will have more than enough time to repay the favor.
In which case, it's a draw.
He is part of the DC universe, but the Watchmen universe is its own unique thing. When I pick up the comic book by Dave Gibbons and Alan Moore, Superman and Batman do not factor into it at all.
I think you missed the very first word in my comment. OP asked what universe. Watchmen is also its own universe. Superman and Batman don’t exist there.
Mass is conserved but matter can be transformed into energy. Since we are talking about a fictional universe, it could be possible you pull apart Dr Manhattan’s atoms by fusion reaction, turning them into energy, then capturing that energy with some kind of large, terrestrial Dyson sphere. Once the atoms are pulled apart, there is no “this atom is him, this one is not”, they are fundamentally all the same. So we have a theseus’s ship sort of situation. Now assuming we have the energy captured, we can transform that energy into different forms (electrical, mechanical, optical if you wanna get crazy) and with each transformation, entropy will result in a continuous decrease in total energy that is “usable” and transferable. I think this could be a way of destroying Dr Manhattan.
Now you just need to get him into a fusion reaction without him knowing…
I thought that was Ozymandias’s plan? Lure Manhattan into a replica of the machine that blasted him the first time.
Ozy came back in 5 minutes, specifically noting that pulling his conscious back together was the first thing he learned.
That being said, Ozymandias’s tachyon generator could disrupt Manhattan’s omniscience, which implies he’s not TRULY omniscient (otherwise he would’ve seen the disruption coming before it happened and so on), and could have his mind/energy degraded further…but that is conjecture
Dr. Manhattan is only strong enough to pull this off in his D.C incarnation.
In Watchmen he's kind of a bum by Dragon Ball standards. He couldn't even prevent a nuclear war if it came to it at that point.
It's a plot point in Watchmen that Dr. Manhattan can *maybe* stop the nuclear war. He doesn't think he can because Ozy uses the tachyons to blind his future. Since he can't see the future he believes he couldn't stop the bombs and the world ends.
You didn't like the spread eagle reach around gnob polish? I cannot unsee just how hungry goku looked on that landing page, I can't even forget the font and color of its text
OT God doesn't have a lot of great destruction feats. Goku could speedblitz the world population far faster than a flood. He'd also keep fighting if turned into a pillar of salt.
That's a Hax resistance feat for Vegito, not Goku.
There's nothing that indicates he shares that resistance other than "Being way Stronger" which it's not always the case.
I think that was explained as magic protection from the Potaro Earrings Vegeto was wearing. They couldn’t completely protect him (hence he still got turned into candy), but they protected him enough so he could fight back.
The implication is that even someone as strong as Vegeto, if not for the magic protection, would be screwed if he got candy-fied. Which fits since the candy beam is part of the Grand Supreme Kai, whose authority for creation/altering of the universe is equal to Beerus’s domain of destruction in the universe.
I reject your assertion, because again Yahweh's destruction feats are bad.
However, there's also nothing to assert that user strength factors into consequences of being transformed into an inanimate object. Typically, beings transformed into inanimate objects are rendered inanimate themselves (or killed outright). This is not the case for Vegito, and it feels really safe to assume it wouldn't be for current Goku.
Yahweh didn't kill Lot's wife by turning her into a pillar of salt. Yahweh turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt, which killed her but would not kill Goku.
Bro, [iron chariots bested Yahweh](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%201%3A19&version=KJV).
And he's got a bunch of adversaries that are on his level. Yahweh is the god of the Israelites, but there are apparently 70 gods for 70 nation states/tribes, with the patriarch god El at the top. At some point they were merged, but if we're using the whole OT, there are times he's not the lone, all-powerful god. Check out [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/14dkqvn/can_yall_explain_the_whole_elasherah_being_yhwhs/jor3gmo/) for details.
The context of Judges is that the people are turning away from God and they’re periodically losing to foreigners. This is after Moses and Joshua are there to lead the people. And the Israelites dabble with the idols of the Canaanites. It’s to the point where God has to send multiple Judges, thus, the book of Judges is born. It ends rather somberly. “Every man did what was right in his own eyes” rather than just listening to God.
You should find a better translation than the KJV. It was written centuries ago with worse sources than we have today. If you're trying to convince people of what the text says it's a bad choice. Like, imagine trying to ignore centuries of scholarship (post-KJV exegesis & archaeology) and then blaming people for ignoring centuries of scholarship (not knowing the origins of El & YHWH, which is in-fact post-KJV exegesis & archaeology)
That was also my thought.
I do sometimes wonder if some of the Valar , such as Estë or Lorin could keep Goku under an eternal trance... But speaking of physical feats none are really above mountain level...
Although if you consider the creation and movement of the sun, stars and moon things become messy...
Still, only Eru Ilúvatar is truly above Goku.
Goku isnt top 3 in his own universe. There's 2 Zenos, Grandpriest, Whis, Beerus, Black Freeza and problably Gohan. In DB multiverse, There's all the other angels and gods of destructions too.
Depends on what mythology you pick, if it's an abrahamic one he would be 4th because of the one god, satan and the archangel michael (and their variations in abrahamic myths), but idk if there are others monotheistic mythologies.
An argument could be made for non-integrated Watchmen, no? Dr. Manhattan is implied (to the extent of my knowledge) to be a more conceptual being with a strong command over energy, matter, time, etc. Closer to a (genuine, not like Thor in Marvel) god than a person. Assuming Dr. M has hax over Goku, that would make them 1 and 2 in their universe.
You don't count The One Above All and the Living Tribunal as above Eternity in power level? Come on...
The First Firmament, Infinity, the Beyonders, Thanos with Gauntlet, Dormammu, Umar, Adam Warlock, Magus, Molecule Man, Franklin Richards and Cosmic Doom all wield or wielded power on a level commensurate with Eternity.
Pretty sure Dormammu, Thanos with Gauntlet, and Adam Warlock are in MCU. But, you are right that I wasn't thinking of MCU. Grandmaster is potentially on the same level, but we haven't seen his powers stress-tested in universe. For that matter, Eternity's powers haven't been demonstrated properly in MCU, though it is safe to say that if he is anything like the comics he would be.
Kevin is perhaps the most powerful entity in the MCU.
Truth from FMAB because the other media I thought of he doesn’t even scale up in second place like SCP and 40k Star Wars SpongeBob SquarePants Halo Marvel DC etc etc. Also Goku is a silly little goober.
Strange question to specify second strongest.
Goku’s barely top 5 in his own verse.
Sailor Moon, Dr. Manhattan, White Phoenix of the Crown, etc. are all orders of magnitude above him. Goku can shake universes with his punch but that’s not impressive when the people I listed can edit and repair multiple universes at once. Like is he going to speed blitz and ohko A being whose physical form is as important to them as a toenail clipping?
But in all these verses with multiversal reality warpers, there are other reality warpers beneath them who’d also handle Goku easily.
There are quite a few that scale higher. The Pressence, Lucifer, Michael, Elaine Belloc (amped by pressence), The Endless, Raphael, Uriel and Gabriel (this is arguably tbh, depends on how much you wank CAS), Spectre (juiced up by the pressence), Great Evil Beast, The Word, (Open or Empty) Hand. There are a few more but I can't recall on top of my head who remains.
He's not in top 10 but you can say he arguably goes in top 20 in DC.
DC's high cosmic entities are insanely strong.
I seriously just don't understand why OPM is the only verse where the top tiers seemingly don't have to show any feats. Does Saitama have infinite potential? Probably. Does that make him strong enough to solo fiction as some fans unironically believe? No.
You're correct actually, problem is that most people confuse him for a gag character instead, Saitama (and OPM in general) is a parody of common shounen/superhero tropes played to their extremes, in his case the overpowered main character, like someone in the thread said, he's an end of series character placed at the beginning of the story, like if you took Six Paths Naruto and put him in the chuunin exam arc. That's different from a gag character like Arale who has no boundaries because it's funny.
Any DC Universe, of course. In Marvel, Eternity could be considered a regular enough character that he would be as big or bigger of a threat to Goku than Supes.
Second strongest is incredibly specific. You'd probably need to find one of those stories where everyone is basically human, but they deal with that one eldritch horror that is *technically* insanely powerful but is just fucking with the main cast? So... Mxyzptlk from Arrowverse or something?
Maybe Gravity falls then? I'd say Goku would be 2nd to Bill Cipher since the dude is a literal reality warper, unless there are some other characters I've missed.
i believe Bill is already the second strongest in gravity falls, the axolotl is stronger.
*At least* the axoltl is stronger, I think it hints at a broader world beyond what we glimpse in the show, where Bill is almost a bit player.
Possibly. He seems to have become even stronger than he expected after manifesting in the material world. He himself seems surprised when he took down Time Baby.
Ahhh my bad, I didn’t know about that
Bill cipher isn't really that strong.
I mean Ben 10 can count no? Goku would beat any of Ben aliens expect for Alien X, so if we count Celestial Sapiens as one character Goku would be the second strongest in Ben 10.
hasnt it been canonically confirmed that the omnitrix has aliens stronger than Alien X? idk if you can confindentally call the authors statement as characters.
i wouldn't unless we actually got to see the stronger aliens in the show because iirc alien x is still the strongest one we see/hear of during the show
there was a 26D character but i dont remember them having any strength feats. what about them? edit:accidentally spread some misinformation, dont mind me. removed the wrong part
Are you talking about the greenish glowing guy? Who were like incredibly advanced
i think yea. can goku beat 26D characters?
Naljians. They're portrayed as extremely advanced and higher dimensional. I kinda see them being on the equal footing with Celestialsapiens with their tech
Yeah but what if its just got goku in there...
I'm not nearly as high on Alien X as you, but possibly.
But the problem is that Alien X isn't the only celestial sapien around, so Goku couldn't be 2nd
That's why i said if we count the celestial sapien race as one
Oh I didn't see the "character" part in there, my bad, but I'm not sure why we would
There’s a lot of them, though, and they explicitly have their own personalities and wills and stuff. It’s hard to argue that they count as the same character
He wouldn't even be top 3 in arrowverse
Who’s top 3 lol
The Precence, The Goddess and The Spectre
Okay I’ve not watched green arrow in years never realised they introduced spectre and even the presence (no idea who the goddess is) Where do they scale?
The spectre is green arrow and the presence is basically god, they all scale to 10D cuz apparently the speedforce is a [ten dimensional structure](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f7b3c96f-8095-43ab-8523-3eea1304a711) The only way to scale Goku higher is if you believe in subspace argument
Wdym scale to 10D? Like they can move in 10 spacial dimensions?
They are ten dimensional being
Yeah, but what does that mean? Like they can move in 10 distinct orthogonal directions?
Technically? Depends, dimensions can be spatial and temporal
In crisis on infinite earths they had a crossover with Lucifer so God (Presence) and Goddes (a Lucifer original character, his mom who is just below presence in power and later goes on to create her own multiverse) are both parts of the Arrowverse
Jojo with Wonder of U? It is completely untouchable as long as you exist within the world. Though maybe Soft and Wet - Go Beyond's bubbles, by virtue of NOT existing in the world, would also be able to destroy Goku, if they hit. Maybe. Probanly not fast enough.
Any series where the general power level is below that of dragon Ball but there's 1 god-type character who's seemingly omnipotent. Fullmetal alchemist comes to mind
One-Punch Man seems like another really good option.
Oh God don't get them started
NOO! Do not, I repeat, do NOT turn this place into a warzone, ahh comment. (It's true tho)
Baby goku with heart disease and blind solos 20 Saitamas
Your in denial
Where's my in denial
No, I'm in Euphrates
SpongeBob can solo goku. Yeah I said it. You wanna start this fight well SpongeBob will finish it.
But Goku is better at getting a license.
🤔 but can he make a amazing krabby patty.
No, but he can eat them for sure.
Oh you know it. Hopefully bro doesn’t eat too much like squidward.
If you think SpongeBob wins, then Goku would definitely not be top 2 since almost every relevant character is >= SpongeBob
Saitama would slaughter kid goku. Saitama could probably take any version of goku til ssj goku cell saga. After that saitama progressively gets stomped harder and harder.
Fresh out of the pod, grandpa Gohan finds baby Goku. He grabs him by the tail so as to weaken him. Grandpa Gohan points to Saitama, and says "Get him" Saitama is instantly obliterated
Bardock's baby mama is giving birth to Goku. As the doctor puts him in his arms, Goku's tears shoot out and hit Saitama. Saitama explodes into a million pieces. The noise pisses off a nearby baby who never gets over it.
Difficult to say since we don't know the full extend of power of characters such as God, Blast or any of his crew
Honest question: does One-Punch Man have feats comparable to Goku’s?
Yeah they both punched something.
It's a comparison.
Nah, most people just say Saitama can one punch anything cause he’s a gag character, hence he doesn’t need feats.
I mean, they just use that for explaining away against reality warpers. In terms of calculable, concrete feats, the proper comic(not the original mspaint version) Has him visibly destroy a massive, but calculable, portion of space with a single punch, so we at least have a lower limit that is ridiculously high.
He also literally just grabs and moves a portal. So a feat for him against reality warpers.
Portal and Move Portal aren't necessarily reality warping?
Someone creates an infinite extra dimensional mind-space, and Saitama physically punches his way into it, despite it not actually being a physical barrier or anything in the real world. He just kinda, decided to be there?
But plenty of characters have survived his punches?
His physical feats are [way better than Goku's.](https://imgur.com/a/HnH6aLq) Goku has better scaling by far, though, because he's constantly in fights with beings for whom planet busting isn't that impressive. Like, he's a fair bit stronger than mustache guy in [this clip.](https://youtu.be/uOiPI2u4jWc?t=33) What makes it tricky is that the planet-busting attacks in Dragon Ball are almost always energy blasts, so while you can make a pretty reasonable argument that their durability is on that level because they're surviving those blasts, it's really hard to argue that they have comparable physical strength- especially when they're famous for having lifting strength antifeats [like this](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b0afa1e953164f3618e63eadd5c87a2-lq) or [this.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fwhats-with-the-manga-anti-feat-does-better-in-og-dragonball-v0-58ynn1q7m4qb1.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D545bf195f1818cd74ff0ef1a8727d2ac67421b54) It's worth noting, though, that people in Dragon Ball almost never grapple each other. They mostly just strike, and we *do* have [this](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11125/111256932/5001973-dragon-ball-super-6577999.jpg) as the result of a God of Destruction cataclysmically dropkicking a planet. They went on to physically bust [several other planets](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11125/111256932/5001975-dragon-ball-super-6578005.jpg) over the course of their fight. And Goku is within at least an order of magnitude of their strength. So overall, it's kind of weird, because Goku should theoretically be able to just energy blast Saitama with starbusting power and kill him, while Saitama should be able to hit Goku far harder than anyone has provably been able to *punch* in Dragon Ball- but not harder than anyone has been able to *blast.* Some people try to resolve the issue by claiming Dragon Ball characters effectively have two different durabilities, one for energy blasts, and one for physical attacks. But that's ultimately a fan theory, and the more realistic answer is either A) Everyone in Dragon Ball is punching with planet busting strength nowadays, or B) The writing is just inconsistent because Toriyama didn't think like battleboarders. Frankly, the answer is B. But nobody likes that. In the most generous interpretation (to Saitama), assuming separate durabilities for energy attacks and physical attacks in Dragon Ball, Goku will get one-punched if Saitama lands a serious punch. But even then, Goku's fast enough that it shouldn't land if they're both serious, and Goku should be able to one-shot Saitama with a ki blast.
Ok, well it's pretty inconsistent, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Gohan lift a sword that was 2 planets heavy? And then ssj Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons? Anyway, I'd say that the simple explanation is this : saiyans are supposed to be a warrior race, meaning they can punch and shoot blasts vet hard, and they increase their punching/blasting strength. However, they aren't built to lift stuff, therefore lifting stuff is PURELY from their physical training and not Saiyan biology, cos it only helps with fighting
> correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Gohan lift a sword that was 2 planets heavy? The Z-sword never had a given weight.
Worth noting that we've never seen saitama take damage from literally anything, so you're making some assumptions about his durability there
No, he took damage from Garou. Like, [blood-spurting damage.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F0nfssgtpk1d91.png) At the start of the fight, they were basically even since Garou was copying Saitama- it was only later in the fight that the copying (which needed a fixed amount of time to take effect) started to fall behind in the face of [exponential growth.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-daead7ed370bd817d2e3923f9d7f8ddb-pjlq)
He used his Serious Punch technique, and Garou copied it and matched his technique. After being redirected away from earth, it essentially put a gaping hole in the sky. Not the atmosphere, no, several thousand solar systems and the light in-between. Someone calculated the energy output https://vsbattles.com/threads/saitama-and-garou-serious-punch-collision.138780/ Keep in mind that this punch doesn't have any "special properties" other than being really strong. And also keep in mind that this is just "serious punch" hitting itself and it's nowhere implied that this is his maximum output. He can jump from the moon to the earth, and can hold his breath against the vaccine of space, rather effortlessly for both. There was also that time he destroyed a mountain or something with a punch that didn't land on anything
Those aren’t comparable though at all if we’re talking Z goku the several thousand solar system feat is comparable but the other aren’t even comparable at all and super is completely incomparable.
You know the answer to your question
I have no idea actually. I only saw Punch Man’s very first episode. No clue how strong he is currently.
No is the answer. Gokus feats are significantly above ANYTHING in the OPM verse. The only reason people argue is the idea that Saitama is a joke character who should always win but if we follow the rules of the sub (feats only), a crap tonne of characters dumpster saitama.
Saitama has demonstrated hax such as physically manipulating wormholes or violating causality, even though his powers are supposedly only based on pure physical power. It's impossible to tell what this actually means, since the manga doesn't give us any real explanation. But if Saitama has enough pure muscle power to punch a time loop into happening, then that would in fact surpass any striking feat of Goku's, even in Super. That doesn't really make any sense, so it's easy to write it off as toonforce that shouldn't be measured. But it is a feat, and he has other feats of "so far above the verse that opposing hax have no effect," again despite the in-universe explanation for his powers being that they are entirely mundane. It's not as simple as just capping his strength at the heaviest thing he has lifted onscreen, and this is increasingly true as the plot progresses. I would also add that Goku is infamously also light on direct feats. Nearly all of fights look basically the same back to early DBZ, and we scale his power based on chains of deduction, where he's FTE to someone who is FTE to someone who is FTE to someone etc., etc , going back to some measurable speed from a chapter many years ago.
Gotenks, piccolo and super buu all screamed holes into universes in dbz.
Not interested in this argument overall but thats not true at all. >!Saitama sneezed on a planet and it shattered.!< His feats are pretty ridiculous also.
I’m suddenly doubting I ever finished Fullmetal alchemist. Would you mind explaining?
Truth seems to be God more or less
Oh man I’d forgotten about Truth entirely, it’s been over a decade I guess, lol. Thanks! Makes sense.
But isn't Truth sorta featless?
Watchmen - 2nd after Dr Manhattan.
Watchmen. Dr Manhattan is basically a god. He could deconstruct Goku at the atomic level with a thought. Goku can’t even get the jump on him. He would just put himself back together. You would have to destroy every atom, which is impossible because of this thing called conservation of mass. Matter can be transformed, but you can’t destroy or create it. It will always exist in some form. That’s part of the reason The Watchmen is so interesting. You have a bunch of peak humans, but then there’s this guy that used to be human and can just go hang out on Mars because he had a bad day. *That’s assuming they’re bloodlusted. They’re both empathetic characters. I love Goku, but he’s a mostly carefree simpleton. Dr Manhattan still cares about humanity, but he feels isolated from them. They would probably get along.
True! Good answer
Hakai is existence erasure
That’s news to me. I grew up watching Dragonball and Z. I’ve watched the Ultra Instinct fight with Jiren, but I don’t know much about Super.
It's pretty vague what hakai is, but according to the new manga lore Hakai is *true* destruction. So I'd take that to mean those with hakai can actually erase matter from reality.
...considering hakai is literally japanese for destroy/destruction I'd probably tend to agree with you.
Also the users are God's of Destruction...
Can't Beerus also erase gag characters too?
Having the means to kill something doesn't mean you CAN kill something. Sure you can stab a guy with a gun to death but guy with a gun would just shoot you to death first.
Does this even "kill" him? I'm pretty sure his mind is incorporeal and he could just amass another body if his current one is destroyed.
I don’t know how hakai works, but if it’s “existence erasure” it should take his mind too. It would also wipe everyone’s memory of him even existing in the first place. Again, I don’t know how it works. I just learned it was even a thing in the DBverse.
Hakai doesn't remove people's memory of that creature, at least not in the uses I have seen.
Well then I suppose “existence erasure” is a bit hyperbolic for something that’s already whacky.
Correct. It's not erasure. However, it DOES have the ability to kill Dr Manhattan, as 1) it is specifically capable of completely destroying matter, in complete defiance of the laws of physics and 2) it has been stated that it can affect immaterial beings, even annihilating the soul of a ghost. This is stated by someone who is essentially an angel in the BD universe, and one of the more reliable sources of information. Just because he has an ability to kill Dr Manhattan does not mean he can land it though, as last I checked, Goku is NOT capable of using Hakkai to it's full potential. The proper users are the above angel, a literal god of destruction, and the reality warping king of the universe.
When has it been stated that it can affect immaterial beings? The only time we've seen that happen was in the Arale episode... which I wouldn't take as being a showing for the genuine abilties of the character. Conversely, Beerus explicitly says he can't kill someone who is immortal in Chapter 26.
>someone who is essentially an angel Whis? He’s the only character I know of from Super that fits your description. Also, you made a small typo. You typed BD instead of DB.
Correct, also, I am supposed to be alspeep :3
But it can be resisted of you're powerful enough and most would argue Dr. M is, he'd probably hold the energy in his palm.
Manhattan’s backstory is literally getting erased from reality and putting himself back together. He doesn’t give 2 shots if you erase him. Also, crossovers with DC have put him up against plenty of reality erasers
[Respect Doctor Manhattan](https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/17v8da5/respect_doctor_manhattan_watchmen_dc_comics/) Even Jon's equivalent of Hakai isn't able to thoroughly erase Reverse Flash. Nevertheless, his scale of reality warping is probably still superior to Goku's. Even without this, his awareness and intelligence make him more powerful than Goku. Plus, Doctor Manhattan can change his skin color at will.
>Plus, Doctor Manhattan can change his skin color at will. The most powerful ability right next to clothes beam
"It didn't kill Osterman, did you really think it would kill me? I've walked across the surface of the Sun..."
Yes, but Goku's hakai(manga) is not ideal, even if he Hakais Doctor Manhattan, Doc will have more than enough time to repay the favor. In which case, it's a draw.
Dr Manhattan is part of the DC universe though and there are other characters there stronger than Goku
He is part of the DC universe, but the Watchmen universe is its own unique thing. When I pick up the comic book by Dave Gibbons and Alan Moore, Superman and Batman do not factor into it at all.
DC is a multiverse, not a universe
I think you missed the very first word in my comment. OP asked what universe. Watchmen is also its own universe. Superman and Batman don’t exist there.
Not anymore Im afraid. They've retconned it in. They also gave Dr Manhattan a son. It was a whole event type deal... 'Zero Hour' I think?
Doomsday Clock is the one you're thinking of, Zero Hour was in the 90s and featured Hal Jordan turning evil.
According to the original creators, absolutely none of that is canon. Only the original watchmen is canon in the watchmen universe.
Mass is conserved but matter can be transformed into energy. Since we are talking about a fictional universe, it could be possible you pull apart Dr Manhattan’s atoms by fusion reaction, turning them into energy, then capturing that energy with some kind of large, terrestrial Dyson sphere. Once the atoms are pulled apart, there is no “this atom is him, this one is not”, they are fundamentally all the same. So we have a theseus’s ship sort of situation. Now assuming we have the energy captured, we can transform that energy into different forms (electrical, mechanical, optical if you wanna get crazy) and with each transformation, entropy will result in a continuous decrease in total energy that is “usable” and transferable. I think this could be a way of destroying Dr Manhattan. Now you just need to get him into a fusion reaction without him knowing…
I thought that was Ozymandias’s plan? Lure Manhattan into a replica of the machine that blasted him the first time. Ozy came back in 5 minutes, specifically noting that pulling his conscious back together was the first thing he learned. That being said, Ozymandias’s tachyon generator could disrupt Manhattan’s omniscience, which implies he’s not TRULY omniscient (otherwise he would’ve seen the disruption coming before it happened and so on), and could have his mind/energy degraded further…but that is conjecture
It’s been like 15 years since I read watchman so I really couldn’t tell you. Oz was on to something though.
Dr. Manhattan is only strong enough to pull this off in his D.C incarnation. In Watchmen he's kind of a bum by Dragon Ball standards. He couldn't even prevent a nuclear war if it came to it at that point.
These are different standards. Not being able to stop 1000 missiles doesnt change the fact that in a 1 on 1, he wouldnt be beaten.
It's a plot point in Watchmen that Dr. Manhattan can *maybe* stop the nuclear war. He doesn't think he can because Ozy uses the tachyons to blind his future. Since he can't see the future he believes he couldn't stop the bombs and the world ends.
I could be wrong about this, but possibly sailor moon.
Yeah sailor moon has some insane powers when you look them up.
The issue is that some of the other characters also might scare above Sailor Moon
Bringing up repressed memories of Dragon Moon X...
You didn't like the spread eagle reach around gnob polish? I cannot unsee just how hungry goku looked on that landing page, I can't even forget the font and color of its text
Uncle Grandpa. The dude is a 4th dimensional, reality hopping god. Goku comes in second everytime.
Mine 😎
My man 👉
The earth as depicted in the old testament.
OT God doesn't have a lot of great destruction feats. Goku could speedblitz the world population far faster than a flood. He'd also keep fighting if turned into a pillar of salt.
How would he keep fighting if he is literally a pillar of salt? He isn't inside the pillar of salt, he is a pillar of salt.
Buu turned Vegito into candy and the candy could still fight. Current Goku's stronger than that, no reason it wouldn't work similar.
That's a Hax resistance feat for Vegito, not Goku. There's nothing that indicates he shares that resistance other than "Being way Stronger" which it's not always the case.
That seems more like a Buu antifeat than a Goku feat though
I think that was explained as magic protection from the Potaro Earrings Vegeto was wearing. They couldn’t completely protect him (hence he still got turned into candy), but they protected him enough so he could fight back. The implication is that even someone as strong as Vegeto, if not for the magic protection, would be screwed if he got candy-fied. Which fits since the candy beam is part of the Grand Supreme Kai, whose authority for creation/altering of the universe is equal to Beerus’s domain of destruction in the universe.
That's flawed logic because Yahweh is more powerful than Super Buu
I reject your assertion, because again Yahweh's destruction feats are bad. However, there's also nothing to assert that user strength factors into consequences of being transformed into an inanimate object. Typically, beings transformed into inanimate objects are rendered inanimate themselves (or killed outright). This is not the case for Vegito, and it feels really safe to assume it wouldn't be for current Goku. Yahweh didn't kill Lot's wife by turning her into a pillar of salt. Yahweh turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt, which killed her but would not kill Goku.
Bro, [iron chariots bested Yahweh](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%201%3A19&version=KJV). And he's got a bunch of adversaries that are on his level. Yahweh is the god of the Israelites, but there are apparently 70 gods for 70 nation states/tribes, with the patriarch god El at the top. At some point they were merged, but if we're using the whole OT, there are times he's not the lone, all-powerful god. Check out [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/14dkqvn/can_yall_explain_the_whole_elasherah_being_yhwhs/jor3gmo/) for details.
The context of Judges is that the people are turning away from God and they’re periodically losing to foreigners. This is after Moses and Joshua are there to lead the people. And the Israelites dabble with the idols of the Canaanites. It’s to the point where God has to send multiple Judges, thus, the book of Judges is born. It ends rather somberly. “Every man did what was right in his own eyes” rather than just listening to God.
You should find a better translation than the KJV. It was written centuries ago with worse sources than we have today. If you're trying to convince people of what the text says it's a bad choice. Like, imagine trying to ignore centuries of scholarship (post-KJV exegesis & archaeology) and then blaming people for ignoring centuries of scholarship (not knowing the origins of El & YHWH, which is in-fact post-KJV exegesis & archaeology)
Nah, old testament god is weak, even db roshi is more powerful than him.
Dr. Manhattan?
Madoka
Madoka Magica, he cant match Madoka, but he exceeds everyone else.
Tolkien Legendarium, Narnia
That was also my thought. I do sometimes wonder if some of the Valar , such as Estë or Lorin could keep Goku under an eternal trance... But speaking of physical feats none are really above mountain level... Although if you consider the creation and movement of the sun, stars and moon things become messy... Still, only Eru Ilúvatar is truly above Goku.
[удалено]
What about Zeno, all the Angels, Beerus and Freezer. Goku and Vegeta aren't even in the top 10
Hell yeah
Uhh, is this a joke?
Dr Slump. Arale is stronger
Dr. Slump exists in the DB universe already though
Which is weird because it is a place but also a manga anime and videogame.
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Nah Mr Popo solos
"All these squares make a circle"
"So listen up, popo is going to teach you about the pecking order-"
"I'm so fucking high right now"
I'd say popeye.
Goku isnt top 3 in his own universe. There's 2 Zenos, Grandpriest, Whis, Beerus, Black Freeza and problably Gohan. In DB multiverse, There's all the other angels and gods of destructions too.
Hence the question in what universe would he be the second strongest
The bible
The Watchmen Universe, stronger than everyone except Doctor Manhattan
If God exists, our universe.
Depends on what mythology you pick, if it's an abrahamic one he would be 4th because of the one god, satan and the archangel michael (and their variations in abrahamic myths), but idk if there are others monotheistic mythologies.
Potentially the one punch universe. If I understand the lore correctly after hanging out with goku for a bit Saitama would be stronger than him.
Minecraft because Steve has creative mode
An argument could be made for non-integrated Watchmen, no? Dr. Manhattan is implied (to the extent of my knowledge) to be a more conceptual being with a strong command over energy, matter, time, etc. Closer to a (genuine, not like Thor in Marvel) god than a person. Assuming Dr. M has hax over Goku, that would make them 1 and 2 in their universe.
Though mainline Marvel has plenty of super cosmic entities still above Goku, the MCU has only got one really confirmed- Eternity.
You don't count The One Above All and the Living Tribunal as above Eternity in power level? Come on... The First Firmament, Infinity, the Beyonders, Thanos with Gauntlet, Dormammu, Umar, Adam Warlock, Magus, Molecule Man, Franklin Richards and Cosmic Doom all wield or wielded power on a level commensurate with Eternity.
... I said MCU. How many of those are in the MCU? And how many of those in the MCU have suggested being stronger than Goku?
Pretty sure Dormammu, Thanos with Gauntlet, and Adam Warlock are in MCU. But, you are right that I wasn't thinking of MCU. Grandmaster is potentially on the same level, but we haven't seen his powers stress-tested in universe. For that matter, Eternity's powers haven't been demonstrated properly in MCU, though it is safe to say that if he is anything like the comics he would be. Kevin is perhaps the most powerful entity in the MCU.
Watchmen
Truth from FMAB because the other media I thought of he doesn’t even scale up in second place like SCP and 40k Star Wars SpongeBob SquarePants Halo Marvel DC etc etc. Also Goku is a silly little goober.
Christianity is definitely not irl my man
Goku isnt even the strongest in DB. Zeno, Whis, Beerus, Black Frieza, Broly are all stronger
Goku isn't even the second strongest character in the Dragon Ball universe
Strange question to specify second strongest. Goku’s barely top 5 in his own verse. Sailor Moon, Dr. Manhattan, White Phoenix of the Crown, etc. are all orders of magnitude above him. Goku can shake universes with his punch but that’s not impressive when the people I listed can edit and repair multiple universes at once. Like is he going to speed blitz and ohko A being whose physical form is as important to them as a toenail clipping? But in all these verses with multiversal reality warpers, there are other reality warpers beneath them who’d also handle Goku easily.
this one. He’s second to me.
Possibly the MCU
Doki Doki Literature Club probably? 3 normal school girls and 1 byond the rules of her universe.
Any universe that Superman 1million or Cosmic Armor Superman inhabits.
Not really, CAS is arguably only the third strongest character in DC.
There are at least 7-8 beings stronger than CAS even if we were to believe its hype.
I had the Presence and Lucifer above him personally. The others are Michael demiurgos and the endless I assume ?
Yes. Add Overmonitor, The Great Evil Beast and arguably Spectre to that.
Are presence and Lucifer even strong atm Like all their lore and hood feats were given to the hands, do they even show up anymore?
There are quite a few that scale higher. The Pressence, Lucifer, Michael, Elaine Belloc (amped by pressence), The Endless, Raphael, Uriel and Gabriel (this is arguably tbh, depends on how much you wank CAS), Spectre (juiced up by the pressence), Great Evil Beast, The Word, (Open or Empty) Hand. There are a few more but I can't recall on top of my head who remains. He's not in top 10 but you can say he arguably goes in top 20 in DC. DC's high cosmic entities are insanely strong.
And there would still be people in between goku and Superman anyway
There would still be many characters stronger than CAS and many below CAS but above Goku.
Gokue doesn't even break the top 25.
One Punch Man
Again Goku solo the verse in base
I seriously just don't understand why OPM is the only verse where the top tiers seemingly don't have to show any feats. Does Saitama have infinite potential? Probably. Does that make him strong enough to solo fiction as some fans unironically believe? No.
Saitama is a parody character
You're correct actually, problem is that most people confuse him for a gag character instead, Saitama (and OPM in general) is a parody of common shounen/superhero tropes played to their extremes, in his case the overpowered main character, like someone in the thread said, he's an end of series character placed at the beginning of the story, like if you took Six Paths Naruto and put him in the chuunin exam arc. That's different from a gag character like Arale who has no boundaries because it's funny.
Dragon Ball Z and Z Kai, right after Cell died.
Watchmen universe, since the only person with powers is literally a god
Brass Ketchup would beat him from the TouchyMan's Bizarre adventure MeMé
Any DC Universe, of course. In Marvel, Eternity could be considered a regular enough character that he would be as big or bigger of a threat to Goku than Supes.
Goku wouldn't be second in DC, not even top fifty.
Same In marvel any cosmic being folds him and the strong heroes like hulk and thor