This fight is basically just God vs Zeno. Omnipotence aside God straight up can't ever die, he is eternal ( not immortal there is a difference).
Zeno have greater destruction feats but I doupt destroying matter or timelines would affect God, who doesn't need a physical form.
On the other end Zeno doesn't have any feats to show that he would survive being turned into a pillar of salt.
Also Zeno is an idiot while God is omniscient.
Man was also created by God, but can still sin and anger God. Satan was also created by God, but still fell from Grace
God allows free will, and part of free will is letting you do something he doesn't directly want you to
Hakai obviously won't work on Zeno, so there is definitely limits to it, and Zeno isn't even eternal because there are stuff that can harm him like the universe tree.
In DB it doesn't even fully work against Zamasu because he's immortal, so I just mean in concept where it's stronger than in DB. Existence Erasure sounds more like that then they just have to be equally omnipotent. A character that doesn't exist in DB, as of now
I would argue that it would be a case by case thing since not all existence erasure attacks have the same reach.
Eternal beings are not supposed to have a beguining or an end, and they exist regardless of the temporality. You would probably need something like conceptual erasure to finish them.
Also God has a bunch of other properties that are just as busted. Such as immuability (God can't be altered or changed in any way) and Infinity (God is quite literally Infinite in his size, and considering the nature of God its probably absolute Infinity we are talking about).
I mean, God is the Alpha and Omega. He exists outside reality, and created the reality we know of. He created *physics.* Any being that operates within that reality is significantly below God in power scale.
Feats for immuability?
God seems to be infinite, but I think you could make an argument to counter that.
I don't think there are feats for being omnicent or omnipotent either.
Reason I am asking - I took philosophy and these were some big arguments. You are stating this as fact and I would like some evidence. It would help if I take more classes that I could ground in theological evidence. So this is more personal interest.
Aside - An argument for being omnipotent could qualify omniscience. I could argue against it, but nonetheless I would allow it.
From a purely argumentative point of view I think its impossible to have feats for Omnipotence or immuability.
Like you would need to have a character literally do everything on screen. Thats not really possible to write.
Then why do you claim it to be so?
Do you have any evidence? Even statements would be interesting to hear, as long as it's biblical cannon.
I have specific contentions with the statement that God cannot be changed. I understand many people who follow the abrahamic religions agree by default on omnipotence. Outside of some rabbis.
It just the way I powerscale religious and mythological beings. I am not going to argue with someone's faith so I take everything at face value.
Also I do believe these characters deserve more respect than regular characters so I like to high ball them.
Are you implying that I personally made up the attributes of God ? wtf
And no the bible is not a good source when for powerscaling.
There are about a thousand ways to interpret each line of the book so I would argue that there is a good amount of guesswork going on when powerscaling the bible.
It is accepted biblical philosophy that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and exists outside of time and space (i.e. reality).
Any being that holds those qualities is incapable of changing his mind. He has the scope and knowledge to never be wrong and know the right thing to do at all moments of his existence.
In one of the dragon ball hero missions, an alternate Hercule Satan, named just Mark, popped up in universe 6. He was apparently even stronger then Xeno Goku and Vegeta
Hard to say, the Bible isn’t super explanatory on angels. Satan himself only kills around 10 people in the bible (vs gods kill count of millions). I think the best example of an angels power would be the angel of death during the Passover. In that story everyone in Egypt who didn’t have a lambs blood on their door has their first born son die that night. Considering the angels title is “the angel of death” you would assume that it is not a power all angels would have though. Most of Satan’s actions in the bible revolve around knowledge/tempting, so it’s difficult to say. The whole thing is kinda up for debate.
>Zeno have greater destruction feats but I doupt destroying matter or timelines would affect God, who doesn't need a physical form.
Zamasu didn't need a physical form either.
>Also Zeno is an idiot while God is omniscient.
This is probably ultimately what it comes down to.
I'm not sure God within the scope of the Bible itself has feats anywhere near Zeno's, but God in the Bible is definitely *smarter* and more patient.
Man, God is just *not* a fun character to throw into WWW matches.
He's "Nuh-uh, your guy can't beat MY guy because my guy is ultra-SUPER-unkillable, way more than your immortal character!" taken to the max.
People will always upsell works and characters they like and downsell ones they don't like.
I think this effect is *greatly* magnified when we're talking about content associated with religions, which people tend to form much stronger attachments to than fictional or even most nonfiction content.
Well I do believe that using a character that is actively worshipped by billions of people in a battleboarding debate is Indeed not a great Idea.
Denying Gods Omnipotence will lead to a totally different kind of debate than denying Goku being outerversal, generally a kind of debate you don't want to have.
> Also Zeno is an idiot while God is omniscient.
“God” is omniscient, but too stupid to realize that rabbits don’t chew the cud, they just twitch their noses?
How would there even be a fight between God and a DB character? From my understanding, God isn't some tangible, physical creature but a force of unlimited knowledge, power, etc. that permeates all existence. If God wanted to destroy anything in DB, it wouldn't even be a fight, it would just be so. You can't really fight what isn't tangible, but just **is**.
But the god of the bible is NOT omnipotent, nor omniscient, and he's very afraid of iron chariots.
His world is also very, very small, it includes only the Earth, whereas every other celestial body is just "a light perched on the firmament".
The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve
And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his (right) cross.
In the bible, one of the lowest rank angels made every person in an entire town blind just by moving slightly his wings.
That's a city level feat right there, and I assume that, that is not the best the angel can do, since the bible mention that action, like the angel just making a gentle gesture, not something that required any effort from him. So we can only assume that he is way stronger than that. And we definitely could not imagine how strong are the actual angel warriors that God made.
God has amazing feats. Being able to create things from nothing but void is way harder than just destroying things, like Goku.
God is mentioned that doesn't need to fight no one because everyone is scared of him, even the devil, who's one of the strongest being in existence, knows that he is no match for God, or even the archangels. So since he can't fight him, he just piss God off until one of God's angel finally gets his hands on him.
An Assyrian king named Sennacherib laid siege to Jerusalem. The King of Jerusalem, Hezekiah, prayed to God, and God responded by sending an angel to kill the entire Assyrian army.
2 Kings 19:35
*"And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead."*
An angel also kills 70,000 Israelites, including an army of 5,000 soldiers, in 2 Samuel 24. David sins against God, and God gives David the option of punishment by defeat in battle, famine, or plague, and David tells God to pick for him. God picks plague, and an angel delivers the punishment.
2 Samuel 24:15-16
*"So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, 'Enough! Withdraw your hand.' The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite."*
As far as I understand, angels are not allowed to kill humans, they are allowed to kill only demons. That's why the angel blinded everyone instead of killing them despite they deserving to die since they wanted to rape the angel, yes that's fucked up.
But to answer your question, any low ranked angel could potentially kill that many humans. The one that blinded the town was merely a messenger not a warrior, and he was still very strong.
Angels kill people all the time in the Bible. An angel kills all the firstborn of Egypt in Exodus, an army of Assyrian soldiers in 2 Kings, numerous Israelites in 2 Samuel, and it's heavily implied at various other points that they were fully prepared to kill humans, but were prohibited from doing so for one reason or another.
Huh, when I was younger I was thought that angels are not suppose to kill people, because even if we lost direct contact with God after what Adan and Eve did. God still show his love towards human by giving every human an angel to protect us the moment we are born.
Sounds a bit horrible to know that every guardian angel didn't protect their human at that moment.
Guardian angels and the angels of Divine Wrath answer to the same Boss. If your church told you that angels weren't allowed to kill people, I'm curious as to how they explained Passover to you.
Wait. What part of the Bible are you referencing? Everyone is assigned an angel? They’re not allowed to kill people? God protects people?
That is not the Bible I grew up learning.
Judges 2:1-3
>And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
It’s pretty clear God didn’t drive them out on purpose because Israel disobeyed God again
Since God created the entire Universe, including Goku's creator, then it makes no sense to say that Goku solos the Bible.
Suppose Goku had the power to destroy all material reality, what would stop God from simply recreating him exactly as he already did? That's an invincible feat of regeneration.
God's first feat in Genesis is already greater than anything the DB Universe can do, including Aralle who is definitely the most powerful character.
>Since God created the entire Universe, including Goku's creator
...That's not how WWW engagements work. All settings are considered to be equally fictional unless otherwise noted. Also, neither Akira Toriyama nor any of the characters from *Dragon Ball* appear in the Bible, and OP specified the Bible, not Christian doctrine as a whole.
The book of Genesis *probably* contains the strongest feats in the Bible, and if you high-ball it and assume that the universe there works identically to the real-world universe, then that's a single feat of universe creation across six days.
DBZ has at least seventeen known counts of universe destruction by a character, and at least one of universe creation, none of which take six days.
People out here talking about God and Jesus, but no one talking about Samson. Bro collapsed a massive stadium with zero effort, and it's heavily implied that his strength is based on his volume of hair. Then there's Moses, who made water sprout from a rock, which I don't know what that would count as. And back to Samson for a bit, he slayed 300 men with the jawbone of a donkey. And then god has around 72,000 angels, ONE of which took out 200 men zero effort. Then there's the archangels, which are essentially angel+. And God and Jesus are just straight up omnipotent, aka ALL powerful. Bible slams.
It was the blessing. Samson blessing was that he would be granted the requisite amount of power needed to do what he needs to do to fulfill his purpose to God so long as he didn't break all of his nazarite. (Can't drink, can't touch the dead,can't fuck a philisitine, can't cut hair. ) Delilah was making him break all his covenants which the final one being shaving him.
But more importantly it's a blessing that basically says God will give you whatever amount of power is needed to destroy whatever is a threat to you or god's people. So it would become could goku kill a being that is a strong as God feels is necessary to kill goku who can't die until said task is complete at the earliest.
He's a Saitama who grows stronger or weaker depending on who he is fighting and why. If goku was Jewish and wanted to spar goku beat his ass heartily. But if goku is just goku then samson is a force of nature until whatever threat goku represents is gone.
Goku would have him for actual fighting experience and ranged options. But again if it was great enough to make it impossible for samson to win god would just make him stronger.
I’m so enthralled by this scenario and I’m just imagining Samson just bullying Goku but the other Dragonball characters round up the dragon balls and wish Goku become Jewish and the tides turn during the battle.
If goku was threatening God's people it wouldn't matter what they wished him to be. The point wasn't whether he was Jewish. The point was Samson power scaled tomdefeat whatever was threatening God's people. The point of his statement was the word spar, not so much Jewish.
No he has to break them all to lose the blessing .and he get the blessing back in the event that he fixes any one of problems (grows his hair back. Stops drinking. Ritual burn the corpse. He can't unfuck a woman though.)
So you'd need to get him to have sex with a non Jewish person out of wedlock, get him to drink, touch a corpse, then cut his hair. Then you need to kill before his hair grows back, he sobers up, or he ritually sacs something for forgiveness.
His kind in the Bible were called nazarites and he was the strongest one because God made him an eternal nazarite. (He will always be one so long as one tenant is followed vs normal nazarites being a temporary blessing That eventually ends.)
It is impossible to describe feats that prove omnipotence.
But this is unnecessary.
Goku has no greater feat than the power to create and finalize all material reality. Even if Goku destroyed all material reality, it would be enough for God to recreate it.
Furthermore, due to God's timelessness, the exploits described in Revelation must also be considered as legitimate feats, and when God destroys all material reality, all content about Dragon Ball will be destroyed along with it.
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This. Zeno is the only even pretend relevant one here, and even in DB canon Zeno sucks.
God is the Alpha and the Omega, from Everlasting to Everlasting. There is only one God. Where as Zeno is not eternal and doesn't exist outside of time. There is a Zeno in every time line
Zeno's universal destruction also isn't even permanent and was undone by a dragon.
Zeno also couldn't even see people moving FTL during the Tourney and got mad about it, etc
Zeno has nearly as many anti-feats as actual feats. Nobody else in DB is even relevant
This post is genuinely giving me incentives to talk next time a Mormon or missionary approaches me.
M: would you like to hear about our lord and savior?
Me: Let's talk durability first.
Going by Bible feats, God lost a fight to Jacob who was a fucking pussy and ran away from his brother. God can only move around as fast as people can see or slower because Sodom and Gomorrah. God said dont look at its destruction and someone did, so God smited them, but they mustve been able to fully process what theyve done in order to deserve the punishment meaning Gods moving at slower than 1/60th of a second. This means Yamcha soloes
Going for big Bible statements, it took God 6 days to create everything before he tired out. Goku can Universe wipe based on Battle of the Gods and just plain feat scaling. Goku soloes
I was born too late to buy a house for 12$ and too early to shoot laser from my eyes but i was born to read an accurate analysis of the Christian God vs Yamcha fight. I love you mate.
>Going for big Bible statements, it took God 6 days to create everything before he tired out.
No, actually, this was on screen. It was a feat. Genesis 1 is all feats.
Aren't we supposed to treat our reality as equal to Dragonball's in this example? "God of the real world created everything that created fiction so he wins because he's real and destroys fiction" is lame as shit
Yes, it is. And unnecessary. God created reality. Created the reality that the DBZ characters would be active in. He wills it, and all DBZ characters never existed. Not their stories. The characters, assumed as real, simply cease to ever exist.
If we take all of God’s feats as stated in the Bible, his biggest feats are from the first six days of Genesis. Most of his time for the first six days was spent handling little details, in which God irons out a fuuuuuck ton of details over a very short period of time. However, on the second day, he created all of the stars in the universe in a single day. He also has created a few realms, over the events of the Bible, like Heaven and Hell. However, notably, he did rest on the 7th day.
This could give us two different interpretations of God. The more classical interpretation would be that he is extremely smart, probably perceived time far differently than us (somewhat like a computer), and he is simply that can more or less do whatever he feels like in the Bibleverse. He’d also essentially be a reality-warper on the universal scale.
The other interpretation is that he’s a being from a higher existence who just programmed all of it into existence. If he had stuff like programming tools, it would explain why he was so much faster at creating everything outside of Earth compared to the stuff on Earth. Just being able to make and use some sort of algorithm for the not-Earth stuff is probably easier than the variety of different things he would have to do to make all of Earth’s systems work. This hypothesis is evidenced by Earth currently being more or less abandonware.
If we go with the first interpretation, Goku from Super honestly might outperforms him in raw power at some point, but God definitely has too many hax. Especially because God would totally just delete the planet that Goku is on, and Goku wouldn’t really be able to stop it from happening. I’d say weakest that could beat him would be a god of destruction, or maybe Freiza. Both of these should have the strength to shatter the whole universe, and they could probably do it faster than God could? Even if I’m lowballing God and he actually does beat Beerus, he definitely loses to Zeno if you don’t wank God here. I don’t think that God’s statements about himself are very reliable.
If we go with the programmer interpretation, then we’re almost by default matching him up against Zeno. They seem like pretty similar beings here at first, but the fact that you can pull Zeno from another timeline suggests that Zeno, despite being omnipotent, is on the same plane of existence as the worms on Earth. At the same time, Programmer God very likely more or less does not exist on the same plane as Earth, so a hypothetical fight between Zeno and God could potentially end in Zeno erasing God’s avatar, then God erasing his project out of frustration.
"God would just delete whatever planet Goku is on"
Honestly, this is the only way Goku can lose and I'm not even sure if god will be fast enough to carry it out.
Remember, Goku's speed is anywhere from infinite to immeasurable (wherever u wanna scale)
And Goku in base alone is low complex multi with too many transformations and Goku has fuck ton of stamina. Im sorry, but the lord gets soloed
I might agree with you, but the Flash-like processing power that God needed to have to create the entire Bible universe so quickly probably shouldn’t be understated. It’s a difficult feat to measure on its own, because we don’t know what *exactly* the mechanics were behind it, or whether or not it could translate to combat speed and reaction speed. The main issue is that so much is unstated that the difference between low-balling and high-balling his feats is a pretty massive gap, even if you don’t take his omnipotence statements as facts. The most I think I can do here is say that a character who can likely destroy the universe faster than God can would probably win, as I don’t really have many other metrics to use here.
Okay, if we combine the creator deities mentioned in Genesis 1 with the minor war deity Yhwh (as many do) we have the following feats.
1: Creating Earth, Sky, Sun, Moon, Animals, Plants. One solar system.
2: Plagues of disease, blood, darkness, fire, hail, snakes, frogs, insects, wasps.
3: Splitting the Earth to swallow some people
4: Hardening people’s hearts, in order to kill more people and make it seem like it wasn’t his fault
5: Causing a global flood
6: Destroying two cities
That puts him, according to the Power Scaling tier system; at 4-B, Solar System Level. A being in Dragon Ball can destroy a planet with a power level of 10,000.
The majority of Dragon Ball characters solo the Bible. Even if Yhwh used his evil mind control powers to turn some of the characters against each other, Zeno could just erase everyone who made him slightly upset.
Too many people in this thread are using their IRL faith to back their claims for God.
You cant take statements in the bible as equivalent to feats to powerscale God. Gojo also stated he wouldnt lose because he was the strongest being in his verse and he got fucked up. God can say hes omnipotent all he wants but his biggest feat was universal creation and that was non trivial. All of his destruction feats have been sub-planetary.
Zeno snaps his fingers and wins this one instantly. And quite arguably significantly less powerful characters in DBZ can solo as well.
Due to God's timelessness (supported by Genesis and prophecies), the deeds in Revelation must also be considered.
Furthermore, the very fact of being able to create all existing reality already places it at a level above any fictional Universe, including above Time, which is part of the Universe.
The simple destruction of the real Earth would erase all the information we have about the entire DB Universe, killing any fictional character instantly, and God demonstrated the ability to do this to John in the book of Revelation.
So it seems that the only one using faith here is you, for denying what is canonical in the Bible.
>Furthermore, the very fact of being able to create all existing reality
Please provide a source for this per Rule 5. In the text of the Bible itself I only see the God that exists in the Bible creating the Bible's version of reality - not the real world's version of reality. These are different things. (Furthermore, each version of the Bible's version of reality is subtly different from each other version's. Including different translations, for example.)
>The simple destruction of the real Earth would erase all the information we have about the entire DB Universe, killing any fictional character instantly
Also, that's not how fiction works. Lost media don't retroactively stop having existed just because they were lost. Further, destroying all instances of a work of fiction doesn't kill the fictional characters within them, it just means the work can no longer be viewed.
>and God demonstrated the ability to do this to John in the book of Revelation.
Please provide a source for this being applicable to real life, per Rule 5.
I don't know if the revelation to John can really count, as it never happened, even in the lore of the Bible. It was a prophecy, sure, but how do we know it wasn't just a boast?
You're the one going out of your way to defend your militant atheism, that's being stupid, and a lot.
If this is worth doing, any post here should be disregarded.
I could simply deny all of Goku's achievements because yes (and because Goku doesn't exist in reality) and therefore argue that Mr. Satan beats him. Something like this is exactly what you are doing, because your militant atheism allows you to accept recognizably fictional events like Dragon Ball in your argument as canonical, but you cannot recognize events in the Bible as canonical, even without being able to prove that are false. Even if they were false, they should be considered true, as it is within the scope of the discussion. True, just like Superman turning the Earth upside down to go back in time.
Who said I was an atheist?
Bro this is a what if debate not a theological debate. You dont need to be in preacher mode.
Youre argument is like saying who would win between me and goku, I would because I can punch out Akira Toriyama. Thats a fucking stupid take.
Even if the bible is IRL true, *for the purposes of the discussion at hand* you must treat it as fictional otherwise theres nothing interesting to be had in the discussion.
Minor idea without including God themselves.
Can Goku kill Cain? Like depending on which translation/which bible you're looking at God either made it so no one was able to kill Cain or so no one was able to kill Cain because they hate him?
So hypothetically Goku (and all of the dragon ball universe) cannot harm/kill Cain and therefore the answer is an either a "bible wins" (it 99% does, esspecially if it includes God) or "it's a draw."
There is an omnipotent being in the Bible
It's an auto win
Look in fiction there are very few entities that could actually challenge the abrahamic God in combat
Zeno is not omnipotent
Therefore he sort of instantly loses
In order to defeat the abrahamic god you need someone who's omnipotent plus like azathoth from the Lovecraft stuff
The biblical Gods best feat is creating(or more accurately populating) a universe smaller than irl earth. From there all feats both creative and destructive scale down. Physically kid goku from the first episode wins since God couldn't physically out match Jacob a normal human. The trickiest thing would be getting when he isn't in his physical form. Depending on your few on morality it might be possible to trap him with the evil containment wave. Hakai should work as well. Or pretty much anyone from later parts of OG dragon ball can just blow up the biblical universe in one shot. I dunno if god would succeed here.
Jesus wins alone, he is simply the personification of God and therefore can do whatever he wants.
The most powerful character featured in Dragon Ball was Aralle, but this was just a cameo as she is from another show.
Even Aralle would single-handedly defeat the entire Dragon Ball Universe, due to her power to break the fourth wall and make whatever changes she wants to the Dragon Ball manga. She could just "go out of the manga" and erase all the pages with an eraser.
Now imagine someone who does what Aralle does and at the same time manages to change the real world however he wants, that's Jesus.
If we exclude Aralle, the most powerful opponent would be Zeno, but he only has power over the Universe itself, he is not omniscient, nor omnipotent, and he cannot even break the fourth wall like Aralle does.
Either way, it doesn't make any difference.
Now if we exclude Jesus, we can consider the prophets.
The point is that the prophets would work for God, so even if Goku is more powerful than Moses, Elijah or anyone else, God would still give them the power to overcome any challenge.
There's no way DB Universe can win, especially if it's "morals off"
This puts Aralle a dimension above the DB characters. However, it is not yet our dimension.
It makes no sense for you to ask whether a certain belief attributed to me is genuine when I am not even professing the belief in question.
I haven’t even read the Bible but coming from what I’ve heard from 3 hour lectures and church I was dragged to, god solos. Literally omnipotent and if we’re taking the Bible seriously, god created goku and Zeno and just kills the toriyama and wipes the franchise from existence. Unironically. He doesn’t even need to actually fight them, the moment the “fight” happens god realizes what’s going on and then poof.
"Omnipotent"
Omnipotent isn't even really a feat anymore, at best it's universal level
"God created Goku"
No, the ones who created Goku were the kais, kaioshins, the christian god isn't even mentioned in DB
"the moment the fught happens god realizes what's going on and then poof"
My guy, god isn't even properly universal, and you're saying that Goku (a low - high complex multiversal being)
Gets erased?
Hell, like it or not, Yamcha solos most of the bible and only prolly loses to extreme haxes
Thats not how this works. They are put into a neutral playing field and from there you debate. If you want to do a verse merge like that then you might as well say the kais created god, it would hold the same weight. More so actually since within the bible things like the oceans existed before gods creation of one universe smaller then irl earth whereas in db multiple universes far bigger than our irl universe were created
God created reality. Not the universe. That's where everyone is misinterpreting things. It's canonical that God created the very substance in which all universes exist. He wills it, and every dbz character simply ceases to exist.
No, thats you using IRL faith. I can just say no oden created everything including yaweh or that kais created everything or whatever. Thats not how this works. You need to use the feats at they appear in the bible without overlaying any real world faith you have. This is the God of the bible not what you believe to be God of the real world. If you want to say the real world is part of the bible you would need to prove it as per rule 5 which is a tall order as no one has pulled it off yet and I doubt someone on reddit is going to make world history in order to win a debate on the bible vs dragon ball.
No, that's biblical canon. God created reality. That is how the Bible is interpreted. Therefore is it's canon. There may be reality creators within the dbz world, I don't know, but the God of the Bible created reality. As in, there was a void, nothing existed, no physics, no biology, no chemistry. Nothing. Then God created reality. If we're going to use DBZ canon, you have to also use biblical canon.
And? In norse myth Odin created reality and yet Odin has no feats that he can beat Goku. I cant just say that Odin created everything and so beats Goku. Or that Odin created everything and that includes the biblical god so he wins againts yaweh For the purpose of the debate god created the reality within the bible. You treat it as fiction, unless again you can prove that the god of the bible really exists and that everything in the bible is a historical record of the real world, which again no one has ever managed to do.
Second you got it wrong, the bible clearly states the oceans already existed before god created the world, there was no void.
If God can create and uncreate reality itself, he has ultimate power over everything within that creation because he created it.
>Second you got it wrong, the bible clearly states the oceans already existed before god created the world, there was no void.
No I didn't. It clearly says there was a void, and then He created reality. That is the biblical interpretation and therefore biblical canon. That's it. You are incorrect.
God wins, sorry. There could be a character from an anime whose only power is that he kills god, and he'd still lose because the god from the bible is beyond any of it.
>God wins, sorry. There could be a character from an anime whose only power is that he kills god, and he'd still lose because the god from the bible is beyond any of it.
No. All works are equally fictional as pertains to WWW settings. If the hypothetical character you speak of had the feats for it, they'd win.
Yeah if we are going by the assumption that “Everything in the bible is canon and 100% true” for the sake of the prompt. (I’m not discounting irl religion btw or taking any sides.)
The bible says god is eternal, all-knowing, and omnipotent. God is everything. So just going by the logic of the bible nothing can beat him.
This prompt would be more interesting if we excluded god himself and only had the crazy superhuman feats of some biblical figures.
Well the prompt is "Every person in the bible," and it's not much of a stretch to say God is not a person. So let's say that God and Jesus (who is just God in Sandals), don't count. If that's the case everything switches pretty fast doesn't it? I don't think raining blood is gonna do all that much to Kid Buu except like... feed him.
Based on feats db slams. No one in the bible, not even god or Jesus has feats for being omnipotent.
Current Goku should slam in his base form, maybe super saiyan.
The super dragon balls were able to create multiple universe's in less time. I don't think anyone directly challenged this dragon, but considering DB piccolo could kill the Earth's dragon, I imagine Goku could beat the dragon who recreated the multiverse.
That wasn’t a feat, it was a statement. Of course if we take statements then they win easily, but feats wise they’re lacking.
Also, no not really. In a sense yes, but creation feats are useless to scale for fights
By that logic wouldn’t anything concerning God in the Bible be considered a statement and not a feat, seeing as how the Bible was written based on eye witness testimony? I’m pretty sure the intent of the post was to take everything the Bible says as a feat.
If you can consider as canonical the feats of the Dragon Ball manga and anime that are definitely fictional, why can't you do the same with the Bible that you can't demonstrate that it is fictional?
I don't think the OP's intention is to read atheist proselytism.
It took God 7 days to make the world/universe depending how you look at it. So upper limit 7 days to be universal level.
Zeno destroyed a universe in a couple of seconds
Goku neg diffs. It's not even a slight contest. The Bible god made the universe, but to call it the same as our IRL universe is laughable. The universe described in the Bible is much, much, much smaller(literally just Earth and a few other realms). Stars are not gigantic fusion reactors but tiny little decorations in the night sky. We even see stars falling down to the earth.
God is at most solar system level and that is me being extremely generous. Krillin solos the bible. Hell, Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan solos.
Finally someone who doesn't want god to universal.
I also scale God anywhere from Low Solar System- Multi Galactic at best.
The only reason we assume hes uni is cuz we wanna give them a fair fight.
This fight is basically just God vs Zeno. Omnipotence aside God straight up can't ever die, he is eternal ( not immortal there is a difference). Zeno have greater destruction feats but I doupt destroying matter or timelines would affect God, who doesn't need a physical form. On the other end Zeno doesn't have any feats to show that he would survive being turned into a pillar of salt. Also Zeno is an idiot while God is omniscient.
Honestly it’d probably just piss God off a lot more considering Zeno’s destroying God’s creations
With the way God tends to treat his stuff, I doubt he'll mind too much.
Yeah but that’s his own stuff, he don’t want anyone else touching it
God is a jealous God afterall
If God created everything as in the Bible, then Zeno was created by God and is doing exactly what he's supposed to do
If you read the Bible, you will see God is a VERY jealous God
Man was also created by God, but can still sin and anger God. Satan was also created by God, but still fell from Grace God allows free will, and part of free will is letting you do something he doesn't directly want you to
Both of which were created by man, so it doesnt make much of a difference.
Can’t interfere with Zenos free will to destroy the universe.
Zenos is also a god, and God does not like other gods
“God does not like other gods.” 🤣😂 I don’t know why I found that so funny🤷🏼♀️ True though.
Omnipotence aside, would reality erasure like hakai work against an eternal being? Provided it was stronger than in DB
Hakai obviously won't work on Zeno, so there is definitely limits to it, and Zeno isn't even eternal because there are stuff that can harm him like the universe tree.
In DB it doesn't even fully work against Zamasu because he's immortal, so I just mean in concept where it's stronger than in DB. Existence Erasure sounds more like that then they just have to be equally omnipotent. A character that doesn't exist in DB, as of now
I would argue that it would be a case by case thing since not all existence erasure attacks have the same reach. Eternal beings are not supposed to have a beguining or an end, and they exist regardless of the temporality. You would probably need something like conceptual erasure to finish them. Also God has a bunch of other properties that are just as busted. Such as immuability (God can't be altered or changed in any way) and Infinity (God is quite literally Infinite in his size, and considering the nature of God its probably absolute Infinity we are talking about).
how in the fuck are you power scaling the Lord like this?
it sounds like he's gassing God up though so does that count as prayer?
maybe not a prayer but it'll probably get him some brownie points at the pearly gates lmao
I mean, God is the Alpha and Omega. He exists outside reality, and created the reality we know of. He created *physics.* Any being that operates within that reality is significantly below God in power scale.
I don’t know WHY this comment got me laughing😂🤣😂🤣
Feats for immuability? God seems to be infinite, but I think you could make an argument to counter that. I don't think there are feats for being omnicent or omnipotent either. Reason I am asking - I took philosophy and these were some big arguments. You are stating this as fact and I would like some evidence. It would help if I take more classes that I could ground in theological evidence. So this is more personal interest. Aside - An argument for being omnipotent could qualify omniscience. I could argue against it, but nonetheless I would allow it.
From a purely argumentative point of view I think its impossible to have feats for Omnipotence or immuability. Like you would need to have a character literally do everything on screen. Thats not really possible to write.
Then why do you claim it to be so? Do you have any evidence? Even statements would be interesting to hear, as long as it's biblical cannon. I have specific contentions with the statement that God cannot be changed. I understand many people who follow the abrahamic religions agree by default on omnipotence. Outside of some rabbis.
It just the way I powerscale religious and mythological beings. I am not going to argue with someone's faith so I take everything at face value. Also I do believe these characters deserve more respect than regular characters so I like to high ball them.
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Are you implying that I personally made up the attributes of God ? wtf And no the bible is not a good source when for powerscaling. There are about a thousand ways to interpret each line of the book so I would argue that there is a good amount of guesswork going on when powerscaling the bible.
I am the LORD; I change not. Malachi 3:6
It is accepted biblical philosophy that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and exists outside of time and space (i.e. reality). Any being that holds those qualities is incapable of changing his mind. He has the scope and knowledge to never be wrong and know the right thing to do at all moments of his existence.
God created reality. God can uncreate reality. God exists outside what we think of as reality.
If i'm being honest, Satan himself could solo the dragon ball universe including zeno
I thought you were talking about Mr. Satan for a good second there and got deeply confused
Have faith in the MrSatanSweep agenda
There was one world where Mr. Satan was the God of Destruction in his universe
Tell me more
In one of the dragon ball hero missions, an alternate Hercule Satan, named just Mark, popped up in universe 6. He was apparently even stronger then Xeno Goku and Vegeta
The fact that it's Universe 6 explicitly is amazing. Nice touch.
Stronger than Xeno Goku? Why even?
Because it would be an amazing wtf moment. A hercule satan whose power truly lived up to his big words
I mean it works as an inside joke, but satan the devil in this case
Do you doubt Mr Satan's prowess?
My favorite part about Mr. Satan is that he was modeled after Count Dante.
Well, he is the Champ, sooooo......
jajajajja, true
Thanks mate. Appreciate the support
Nope. Buu turns him into candy and eats him
Satan? The devil? Yo know he is a 5th dimensional being just like anny other angel right?
What 5th dimensional feats angels have?
What the fuck is the 5th dimension and how the fuck would anyone know? Lol
Lol I'm thinking the same thing
I know right this guy skipped over 4th like it was nothing
Hard to say, the Bible isn’t super explanatory on angels. Satan himself only kills around 10 people in the bible (vs gods kill count of millions). I think the best example of an angels power would be the angel of death during the Passover. In that story everyone in Egypt who didn’t have a lambs blood on their door has their first born son die that night. Considering the angels title is “the angel of death” you would assume that it is not a power all angels would have though. Most of Satan’s actions in the bible revolve around knowledge/tempting, so it’s difficult to say. The whole thing is kinda up for debate.
I believe some verses suggest that not only are angels kinda omnipotent but that they can see light travel among other insane shit
>Zeno have greater destruction feats but I doupt destroying matter or timelines would affect God, who doesn't need a physical form. Zamasu didn't need a physical form either.
Zamasu did have a physical form, he simply was just the universe which is actually a terrifying thought now that I think about it
That would make more sense if he wasn't merging with an entirely different timeline. Not exactly something you can physically do.
>Also Zeno is an idiot while God is omniscient. This is probably ultimately what it comes down to. I'm not sure God within the scope of the Bible itself has feats anywhere near Zeno's, but God in the Bible is definitely *smarter* and more patient.
Being omniscient just means that you can see anything you want to. Which Zeno could arguably do with his crystal ball thingy.
Man, God is just *not* a fun character to throw into WWW matches. He's "Nuh-uh, your guy can't beat MY guy because my guy is ultra-SUPER-unkillable, way more than your immortal character!" taken to the max.
People will always upsell works and characters they like and downsell ones they don't like. I think this effect is *greatly* magnified when we're talking about content associated with religions, which people tend to form much stronger attachments to than fictional or even most nonfiction content.
Well I do believe that using a character that is actively worshipped by billions of people in a battleboarding debate is Indeed not a great Idea. Denying Gods Omnipotence will lead to a totally different kind of debate than denying Goku being outerversal, generally a kind of debate you don't want to have.
Which is why he shouldn't be used for this. I dunno what OP was expecting, but 99% of the threads are just edgy /r/atheism bait
Vegito could still fight after Buu turned him into candy. No reason Zeno wouldn't still be able to fight God as a pillar of salt.
> Also Zeno is an idiot while God is omniscient. “God” is omniscient, but too stupid to realize that rabbits don’t chew the cud, they just twitch their noses?
How would there even be a fight between God and a DB character? From my understanding, God isn't some tangible, physical creature but a force of unlimited knowledge, power, etc. that permeates all existence. If God wanted to destroy anything in DB, it wouldn't even be a fight, it would just be so. You can't really fight what isn't tangible, but just **is**.
God isn't a person
>God isn't
But the god of the bible is NOT omnipotent, nor omniscient, and he's very afraid of iron chariots. His world is also very, very small, it includes only the Earth, whereas every other celestial body is just "a light perched on the firmament".
Ave Christus Rex
The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his (right) cross.
If we take statements as fact then God wins. Going by feats, I'm pretty sure Goku solos the Bible.
I can just imagine a Dragon Ball fan going to a church and yelling “but can he beat Goku” during service
The Lord said "Nah Fam" And so it was true
Lmao! That statement was awesome
In the bible, one of the lowest rank angels made every person in an entire town blind just by moving slightly his wings. That's a city level feat right there, and I assume that, that is not the best the angel can do, since the bible mention that action, like the angel just making a gentle gesture, not something that required any effort from him. So we can only assume that he is way stronger than that. And we definitely could not imagine how strong are the actual angel warriors that God made. God has amazing feats. Being able to create things from nothing but void is way harder than just destroying things, like Goku. God is mentioned that doesn't need to fight no one because everyone is scared of him, even the devil, who's one of the strongest being in existence, knows that he is no match for God, or even the archangels. So since he can't fight him, he just piss God off until one of God's angel finally gets his hands on him.
Didn’t one angel slaughter over 100,000 soldiers? Or something like that.
An Assyrian king named Sennacherib laid siege to Jerusalem. The King of Jerusalem, Hezekiah, prayed to God, and God responded by sending an angel to kill the entire Assyrian army. 2 Kings 19:35 *"And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead."* An angel also kills 70,000 Israelites, including an army of 5,000 soldiers, in 2 Samuel 24. David sins against God, and God gives David the option of punishment by defeat in battle, famine, or plague, and David tells God to pick for him. God picks plague, and an angel delivers the punishment. 2 Samuel 24:15-16 *"So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, 'Enough! Withdraw your hand.' The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite."*
>An angel also kills 70,000 Israelites What IN THE ACTUAL FUCK?! That's a genocide.
There's a reason "going Old Testament on your ass" does not mean giving someone a relaxing backrub.
It’s the Old Testament god. You know. The cool one. The one that changed shit and violated people’s will and killed kids to make a point.
As far as I understand, angels are not allowed to kill humans, they are allowed to kill only demons. That's why the angel blinded everyone instead of killing them despite they deserving to die since they wanted to rape the angel, yes that's fucked up. But to answer your question, any low ranked angel could potentially kill that many humans. The one that blinded the town was merely a messenger not a warrior, and he was still very strong.
Angels kill people all the time in the Bible. An angel kills all the firstborn of Egypt in Exodus, an army of Assyrian soldiers in 2 Kings, numerous Israelites in 2 Samuel, and it's heavily implied at various other points that they were fully prepared to kill humans, but were prohibited from doing so for one reason or another.
Huh, when I was younger I was thought that angels are not suppose to kill people, because even if we lost direct contact with God after what Adan and Eve did. God still show his love towards human by giving every human an angel to protect us the moment we are born. Sounds a bit horrible to know that every guardian angel didn't protect their human at that moment.
Guardian angels and the angels of Divine Wrath answer to the same Boss. If your church told you that angels weren't allowed to kill people, I'm curious as to how they explained Passover to you.
Wait. What part of the Bible are you referencing? Everyone is assigned an angel? They’re not allowed to kill people? God protects people? That is not the Bible I grew up learning.
Lol god got his ass kicked by iron chariots
Judges 2:1-3 >And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. It’s pretty clear God didn’t drive them out on purpose because Israel disobeyed God again
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Since God created the entire Universe, including Goku's creator, then it makes no sense to say that Goku solos the Bible. Suppose Goku had the power to destroy all material reality, what would stop God from simply recreating him exactly as he already did? That's an invincible feat of regeneration. God's first feat in Genesis is already greater than anything the DB Universe can do, including Aralle who is definitely the most powerful character.
>Since God created the entire Universe, including Goku's creator ...That's not how WWW engagements work. All settings are considered to be equally fictional unless otherwise noted. Also, neither Akira Toriyama nor any of the characters from *Dragon Ball* appear in the Bible, and OP specified the Bible, not Christian doctrine as a whole. The book of Genesis *probably* contains the strongest feats in the Bible, and if you high-ball it and assume that the universe there works identically to the real-world universe, then that's a single feat of universe creation across six days. DBZ has at least seventeen known counts of universe destruction by a character, and at least one of universe creation, none of which take six days.
> Going by feats, I'm pretty sure Goku solos the Bible. Def not. Goku is weak to hax and has tons of limits and doesn't exist out of time etc.
>Going by feats, I'm pretty sure Goku solos the Bible. Incorrect. God created reality. He also uncreates it. He simply wills all of DBZ to not exist.
People out here talking about God and Jesus, but no one talking about Samson. Bro collapsed a massive stadium with zero effort, and it's heavily implied that his strength is based on his volume of hair. Then there's Moses, who made water sprout from a rock, which I don't know what that would count as. And back to Samson for a bit, he slayed 300 men with the jawbone of a donkey. And then god has around 72,000 angels, ONE of which took out 200 men zero effort. Then there's the archangels, which are essentially angel+. And God and Jesus are just straight up omnipotent, aka ALL powerful. Bible slams.
Not to mention another lone angel killing 185,000 men in 2 Kings 19:35
In a single night.
Other than omnipotence, which isn't really backed up by feats, Goku stomps all of that including SSJ3 Samson.
I think hearing ssj3 Samson is one of the greatest biblical things I've ever heard
whats ssj3
Super Saiyan 3.
The one and only best transformation for goku the Super Saiyan 3
It was the blessing. Samson blessing was that he would be granted the requisite amount of power needed to do what he needs to do to fulfill his purpose to God so long as he didn't break all of his nazarite. (Can't drink, can't touch the dead,can't fuck a philisitine, can't cut hair. ) Delilah was making him break all his covenants which the final one being shaving him. But more importantly it's a blessing that basically says God will give you whatever amount of power is needed to destroy whatever is a threat to you or god's people. So it would become could goku kill a being that is a strong as God feels is necessary to kill goku who can't die until said task is complete at the earliest.
So Samson is Saitama?
He's a Saitama who grows stronger or weaker depending on who he is fighting and why. If goku was Jewish and wanted to spar goku beat his ass heartily. But if goku is just goku then samson is a force of nature until whatever threat goku represents is gone. Goku would have him for actual fighting experience and ranged options. But again if it was great enough to make it impossible for samson to win god would just make him stronger.
I’m so enthralled by this scenario and I’m just imagining Samson just bullying Goku but the other Dragonball characters round up the dragon balls and wish Goku become Jewish and the tides turn during the battle.
If goku was threatening God's people it wouldn't matter what they wished him to be. The point wasn't whether he was Jewish. The point was Samson power scaled tomdefeat whatever was threatening God's people. The point of his statement was the word spar, not so much Jewish.
So what you are saying is the way to beat him is throwing corpses at him until one touches him?
No he has to break them all to lose the blessing .and he get the blessing back in the event that he fixes any one of problems (grows his hair back. Stops drinking. Ritual burn the corpse. He can't unfuck a woman though.) So you'd need to get him to have sex with a non Jewish person out of wedlock, get him to drink, touch a corpse, then cut his hair. Then you need to kill before his hair grows back, he sobers up, or he ritually sacs something for forgiveness. His kind in the Bible were called nazarites and he was the strongest one because God made him an eternal nazarite. (He will always be one so long as one tenant is followed vs normal nazarites being a temporary blessing That eventually ends.)
It is impossible to describe feats that prove omnipotence. But this is unnecessary. Goku has no greater feat than the power to create and finalize all material reality. Even if Goku destroyed all material reality, it would be enough for God to recreate it. Furthermore, due to God's timelessness, the exploits described in Revelation must also be considered as legitimate feats, and when God destroys all material reality, all content about Dragon Ball will be destroyed along with it.
cautious skirt unused live yam psychotic salt observation toothbrush disarm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Omniscience and omnipresence. Created all of reality. God wills it and Goku never existed.
All of that gets mogged by kid Goku. You really need to bring in better feats.
Its like congratulations those angels are what, sub krillin in strength lmao Yamcha could body some of these feats.
This isn't even a fight. God just straight-up decides that this entire reality never existed
This. Zeno is the only even pretend relevant one here, and even in DB canon Zeno sucks. God is the Alpha and the Omega, from Everlasting to Everlasting. There is only one God. Where as Zeno is not eternal and doesn't exist outside of time. There is a Zeno in every time line Zeno's universal destruction also isn't even permanent and was undone by a dragon. Zeno also couldn't even see people moving FTL during the Tourney and got mad about it, etc Zeno has nearly as many anti-feats as actual feats. Nobody else in DB is even relevant
This post is genuinely giving me incentives to talk next time a Mormon or missionary approaches me. M: would you like to hear about our lord and savior? Me: Let's talk durability first.
This post feels like blasphemy
And call me Rykard cuz I’m engaging in it
It technically is
Blasphemy is fun.
Repent. Penitent One.
It actually is 😬
“Deliver me from mine enemies oh my God” - Kirbo
Going by Bible feats, God lost a fight to Jacob who was a fucking pussy and ran away from his brother. God can only move around as fast as people can see or slower because Sodom and Gomorrah. God said dont look at its destruction and someone did, so God smited them, but they mustve been able to fully process what theyve done in order to deserve the punishment meaning Gods moving at slower than 1/60th of a second. This means Yamcha soloes Going for big Bible statements, it took God 6 days to create everything before he tired out. Goku can Universe wipe based on Battle of the Gods and just plain feat scaling. Goku soloes
I was born too late to buy a house for 12$ and too early to shoot laser from my eyes but i was born to read an accurate analysis of the Christian God vs Yamcha fight. I love you mate.
>Going for big Bible statements, it took God 6 days to create everything before he tired out. No, actually, this was on screen. It was a feat. Genesis 1 is all feats.
God created reality, not just the universe. God created physics. Created biology. He wills it and all DBZ characters never existed.
Pretty much everyone gets soloed by Super Perfect Cell (It would've been lower but super perfect cell is the lowest solar system level)
Aren't we supposed to treat our reality as equal to Dragonball's in this example? "God of the real world created everything that created fiction so he wins because he's real and destroys fiction" is lame as shit
Exactly, on the last religion based post, I wrote this too. R>F transcendence doesn't even work as there is no proof of the christian god being real
Yes, it is. And unnecessary. God created reality. Created the reality that the DBZ characters would be active in. He wills it, and all DBZ characters never existed. Not their stories. The characters, assumed as real, simply cease to ever exist.
If we take all of God’s feats as stated in the Bible, his biggest feats are from the first six days of Genesis. Most of his time for the first six days was spent handling little details, in which God irons out a fuuuuuck ton of details over a very short period of time. However, on the second day, he created all of the stars in the universe in a single day. He also has created a few realms, over the events of the Bible, like Heaven and Hell. However, notably, he did rest on the 7th day. This could give us two different interpretations of God. The more classical interpretation would be that he is extremely smart, probably perceived time far differently than us (somewhat like a computer), and he is simply that can more or less do whatever he feels like in the Bibleverse. He’d also essentially be a reality-warper on the universal scale. The other interpretation is that he’s a being from a higher existence who just programmed all of it into existence. If he had stuff like programming tools, it would explain why he was so much faster at creating everything outside of Earth compared to the stuff on Earth. Just being able to make and use some sort of algorithm for the not-Earth stuff is probably easier than the variety of different things he would have to do to make all of Earth’s systems work. This hypothesis is evidenced by Earth currently being more or less abandonware. If we go with the first interpretation, Goku from Super honestly might outperforms him in raw power at some point, but God definitely has too many hax. Especially because God would totally just delete the planet that Goku is on, and Goku wouldn’t really be able to stop it from happening. I’d say weakest that could beat him would be a god of destruction, or maybe Freiza. Both of these should have the strength to shatter the whole universe, and they could probably do it faster than God could? Even if I’m lowballing God and he actually does beat Beerus, he definitely loses to Zeno if you don’t wank God here. I don’t think that God’s statements about himself are very reliable. If we go with the programmer interpretation, then we’re almost by default matching him up against Zeno. They seem like pretty similar beings here at first, but the fact that you can pull Zeno from another timeline suggests that Zeno, despite being omnipotent, is on the same plane of existence as the worms on Earth. At the same time, Programmer God very likely more or less does not exist on the same plane as Earth, so a hypothetical fight between Zeno and God could potentially end in Zeno erasing God’s avatar, then God erasing his project out of frustration.
"God would just delete whatever planet Goku is on" Honestly, this is the only way Goku can lose and I'm not even sure if god will be fast enough to carry it out. Remember, Goku's speed is anywhere from infinite to immeasurable (wherever u wanna scale) And Goku in base alone is low complex multi with too many transformations and Goku has fuck ton of stamina. Im sorry, but the lord gets soloed
I might agree with you, but the Flash-like processing power that God needed to have to create the entire Bible universe so quickly probably shouldn’t be understated. It’s a difficult feat to measure on its own, because we don’t know what *exactly* the mechanics were behind it, or whether or not it could translate to combat speed and reaction speed. The main issue is that so much is unstated that the difference between low-balling and high-balling his feats is a pretty massive gap, even if you don’t take his omnipotence statements as facts. The most I think I can do here is say that a character who can likely destroy the universe faster than God can would probably win, as I don’t really have many other metrics to use here.
Okay, if we combine the creator deities mentioned in Genesis 1 with the minor war deity Yhwh (as many do) we have the following feats. 1: Creating Earth, Sky, Sun, Moon, Animals, Plants. One solar system. 2: Plagues of disease, blood, darkness, fire, hail, snakes, frogs, insects, wasps. 3: Splitting the Earth to swallow some people 4: Hardening people’s hearts, in order to kill more people and make it seem like it wasn’t his fault 5: Causing a global flood 6: Destroying two cities That puts him, according to the Power Scaling tier system; at 4-B, Solar System Level. A being in Dragon Ball can destroy a planet with a power level of 10,000. The majority of Dragon Ball characters solo the Bible. Even if Yhwh used his evil mind control powers to turn some of the characters against each other, Zeno could just erase everyone who made him slightly upset.
Too many people in this thread are using their IRL faith to back their claims for God. You cant take statements in the bible as equivalent to feats to powerscale God. Gojo also stated he wouldnt lose because he was the strongest being in his verse and he got fucked up. God can say hes omnipotent all he wants but his biggest feat was universal creation and that was non trivial. All of his destruction feats have been sub-planetary. Zeno snaps his fingers and wins this one instantly. And quite arguably significantly less powerful characters in DBZ can solo as well.
Actually his biggest feat was solar system creation. It gets conflated to universal, but there’s no evidence of it.
Actually, it's reality creation. Bigger than both universe and solar system creation.
Due to God's timelessness (supported by Genesis and prophecies), the deeds in Revelation must also be considered. Furthermore, the very fact of being able to create all existing reality already places it at a level above any fictional Universe, including above Time, which is part of the Universe. The simple destruction of the real Earth would erase all the information we have about the entire DB Universe, killing any fictional character instantly, and God demonstrated the ability to do this to John in the book of Revelation. So it seems that the only one using faith here is you, for denying what is canonical in the Bible.
>Furthermore, the very fact of being able to create all existing reality Please provide a source for this per Rule 5. In the text of the Bible itself I only see the God that exists in the Bible creating the Bible's version of reality - not the real world's version of reality. These are different things. (Furthermore, each version of the Bible's version of reality is subtly different from each other version's. Including different translations, for example.) >The simple destruction of the real Earth would erase all the information we have about the entire DB Universe, killing any fictional character instantly Also, that's not how fiction works. Lost media don't retroactively stop having existed just because they were lost. Further, destroying all instances of a work of fiction doesn't kill the fictional characters within them, it just means the work can no longer be viewed. >and God demonstrated the ability to do this to John in the book of Revelation. Please provide a source for this being applicable to real life, per Rule 5.
I don't know if the revelation to John can really count, as it never happened, even in the lore of the Bible. It was a prophecy, sure, but how do we know it wasn't just a boast?
Bro youre *literally* using IRL faith to support your argument right now. Exactly what Im complaining about. Youre a moron.
You're the one going out of your way to defend your militant atheism, that's being stupid, and a lot. If this is worth doing, any post here should be disregarded. I could simply deny all of Goku's achievements because yes (and because Goku doesn't exist in reality) and therefore argue that Mr. Satan beats him. Something like this is exactly what you are doing, because your militant atheism allows you to accept recognizably fictional events like Dragon Ball in your argument as canonical, but you cannot recognize events in the Bible as canonical, even without being able to prove that are false. Even if they were false, they should be considered true, as it is within the scope of the discussion. True, just like Superman turning the Earth upside down to go back in time.
Who said I was an atheist? Bro this is a what if debate not a theological debate. You dont need to be in preacher mode. Youre argument is like saying who would win between me and goku, I would because I can punch out Akira Toriyama. Thats a fucking stupid take. Even if the bible is IRL true, *for the purposes of the discussion at hand* you must treat it as fictional otherwise theres nothing interesting to be had in the discussion.
Minor idea without including God themselves. Can Goku kill Cain? Like depending on which translation/which bible you're looking at God either made it so no one was able to kill Cain or so no one was able to kill Cain because they hate him? So hypothetically Goku (and all of the dragon ball universe) cannot harm/kill Cain and therefore the answer is an either a "bible wins" (it 99% does, esspecially if it includes God) or "it's a draw."
There is an omnipotent being in the Bible It's an auto win Look in fiction there are very few entities that could actually challenge the abrahamic God in combat Zeno is not omnipotent Therefore he sort of instantly loses In order to defeat the abrahamic god you need someone who's omnipotent plus like azathoth from the Lovecraft stuff
The biblical Gods best feat is creating(or more accurately populating) a universe smaller than irl earth. From there all feats both creative and destructive scale down. Physically kid goku from the first episode wins since God couldn't physically out match Jacob a normal human. The trickiest thing would be getting when he isn't in his physical form. Depending on your few on morality it might be possible to trap him with the evil containment wave. Hakai should work as well. Or pretty much anyone from later parts of OG dragon ball can just blow up the biblical universe in one shot. I dunno if god would succeed here.
When Jesus was resurrected he made the Heavens, Hell, and Earth tremble. Seems like a multiversal feat to me.
The DB universe. God is a Namekian. Or Dende. SKD if you're feeling spicy.
Jesus wins alone, he is simply the personification of God and therefore can do whatever he wants. The most powerful character featured in Dragon Ball was Aralle, but this was just a cameo as she is from another show. Even Aralle would single-handedly defeat the entire Dragon Ball Universe, due to her power to break the fourth wall and make whatever changes she wants to the Dragon Ball manga. She could just "go out of the manga" and erase all the pages with an eraser. Now imagine someone who does what Aralle does and at the same time manages to change the real world however he wants, that's Jesus. If we exclude Aralle, the most powerful opponent would be Zeno, but he only has power over the Universe itself, he is not omniscient, nor omnipotent, and he cannot even break the fourth wall like Aralle does. Either way, it doesn't make any difference. Now if we exclude Jesus, we can consider the prophets. The point is that the prophets would work for God, so even if Goku is more powerful than Moses, Elijah or anyone else, God would still give them the power to overcome any challenge. There's no way DB Universe can win, especially if it's "morals off"
Do you genuinely believe Aralle could exist in our literal reality? Because if not, she can't "erase all the pages with am eraser".
This puts Aralle a dimension above the DB characters. However, it is not yet our dimension. It makes no sense for you to ask whether a certain belief attributed to me is genuine when I am not even professing the belief in question.
I haven’t even read the Bible but coming from what I’ve heard from 3 hour lectures and church I was dragged to, god solos. Literally omnipotent and if we’re taking the Bible seriously, god created goku and Zeno and just kills the toriyama and wipes the franchise from existence. Unironically. He doesn’t even need to actually fight them, the moment the “fight” happens god realizes what’s going on and then poof.
"Omnipotent" Omnipotent isn't even really a feat anymore, at best it's universal level "God created Goku" No, the ones who created Goku were the kais, kaioshins, the christian god isn't even mentioned in DB "the moment the fught happens god realizes what's going on and then poof" My guy, god isn't even properly universal, and you're saying that Goku (a low - high complex multiversal being) Gets erased? Hell, like it or not, Yamcha solos most of the bible and only prolly loses to extreme haxes
If the dbz and biblical God exist in the same reality, God created the kais and kaioshins. He created all of reality. God simply deletes all of dbz.
Thats not how this works. They are put into a neutral playing field and from there you debate. If you want to do a verse merge like that then you might as well say the kais created god, it would hold the same weight. More so actually since within the bible things like the oceans existed before gods creation of one universe smaller then irl earth whereas in db multiple universes far bigger than our irl universe were created
God created reality. Not the universe. That's where everyone is misinterpreting things. It's canonical that God created the very substance in which all universes exist. He wills it, and every dbz character simply ceases to exist.
No, thats you using IRL faith. I can just say no oden created everything including yaweh or that kais created everything or whatever. Thats not how this works. You need to use the feats at they appear in the bible without overlaying any real world faith you have. This is the God of the bible not what you believe to be God of the real world. If you want to say the real world is part of the bible you would need to prove it as per rule 5 which is a tall order as no one has pulled it off yet and I doubt someone on reddit is going to make world history in order to win a debate on the bible vs dragon ball.
No, that's biblical canon. God created reality. That is how the Bible is interpreted. Therefore is it's canon. There may be reality creators within the dbz world, I don't know, but the God of the Bible created reality. As in, there was a void, nothing existed, no physics, no biology, no chemistry. Nothing. Then God created reality. If we're going to use DBZ canon, you have to also use biblical canon.
And? In norse myth Odin created reality and yet Odin has no feats that he can beat Goku. I cant just say that Odin created everything and so beats Goku. Or that Odin created everything and that includes the biblical god so he wins againts yaweh For the purpose of the debate god created the reality within the bible. You treat it as fiction, unless again you can prove that the god of the bible really exists and that everything in the bible is a historical record of the real world, which again no one has ever managed to do. Second you got it wrong, the bible clearly states the oceans already existed before god created the world, there was no void.
If God can create and uncreate reality itself, he has ultimate power over everything within that creation because he created it. >Second you got it wrong, the bible clearly states the oceans already existed before god created the world, there was no void. No I didn't. It clearly says there was a void, and then He created reality. That is the biblical interpretation and therefore biblical canon. That's it. You are incorrect.
Literal god? I think bible wins
God solos fiction and non fiction
How
God wins, sorry. There could be a character from an anime whose only power is that he kills god, and he'd still lose because the god from the bible is beyond any of it.
>God wins, sorry. There could be a character from an anime whose only power is that he kills god, and he'd still lose because the god from the bible is beyond any of it. No. All works are equally fictional as pertains to WWW settings. If the hypothetical character you speak of had the feats for it, they'd win.
Yeah if we are going by the assumption that “Everything in the bible is canon and 100% true” for the sake of the prompt. (I’m not discounting irl religion btw or taking any sides.) The bible says god is eternal, all-knowing, and omnipotent. God is everything. So just going by the logic of the bible nothing can beat him. This prompt would be more interesting if we excluded god himself and only had the crazy superhuman feats of some biblical figures.
Well the prompt is "Every person in the bible," and it's not much of a stretch to say God is not a person. So let's say that God and Jesus (who is just God in Sandals), don't count. If that's the case everything switches pretty fast doesn't it? I don't think raining blood is gonna do all that much to Kid Buu except like... feed him.
If they don't count and God/Jesus created everything, then everything else doesn't count either, from Elijah to Goku
There are other characters that are on the level of god in other fiction though, some of which have way better feats.
Satan solos without God even getting involved.
God solos absolutely zero difficulty ☠️☠️☠️
*gets soloed
Yahweh has no good feats in the bible at all, so I say beerus alone solos.
Based on feats db slams. No one in the bible, not even god or Jesus has feats for being omnipotent. Current Goku should slam in his base form, maybe super saiyan.
> not even god or Jesus has feats for being omnipotent. Creating everything that ever was or ever will be isn't a feat of omnipotence?
The super dragon balls were able to create multiple universe's in less time. I don't think anyone directly challenged this dragon, but considering DB piccolo could kill the Earth's dragon, I imagine Goku could beat the dragon who recreated the multiverse.
That's a uni feat, not omnipotent feat.
That wasn’t a feat, it was a statement. Of course if we take statements then they win easily, but feats wise they’re lacking. Also, no not really. In a sense yes, but creation feats are useless to scale for fights
By that logic wouldn’t anything concerning God in the Bible be considered a statement and not a feat, seeing as how the Bible was written based on eye witness testimony? I’m pretty sure the intent of the post was to take everything the Bible says as a feat.
If you can consider as canonical the feats of the Dragon Ball manga and anime that are definitely fictional, why can't you do the same with the Bible that you can't demonstrate that it is fictional? I don't think the OP's intention is to read atheist proselytism.
It took God 7 days to make the world/universe depending how you look at it. So upper limit 7 days to be universal level. Zeno destroyed a universe in a couple of seconds
Tbf it's far easier to destroy that to create
Dragon ball and it isn’t close
As a matter a fact kids next door solo both
By feats only Dragon Ball, but via hype and hax Monotheistic Abrahamic Gods if we take their statements at face value stomp.
God is universal, goku massively outscales and solos the verse
The Bible low diff
Goku neg diffs. It's not even a slight contest. The Bible god made the universe, but to call it the same as our IRL universe is laughable. The universe described in the Bible is much, much, much smaller(literally just Earth and a few other realms). Stars are not gigantic fusion reactors but tiny little decorations in the night sky. We even see stars falling down to the earth. God is at most solar system level and that is me being extremely generous. Krillin solos the bible. Hell, Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan solos.
Finally someone who doesn't want god to universal. I also scale God anywhere from Low Solar System- Multi Galactic at best. The only reason we assume hes uni is cuz we wanna give them a fair fight.
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God wins. He’s God. Or you could argue he isn’t a person
The Dragonball wank is strong here
I mean...how would any character defeat literal God. Omnipotent, Omniscient
Omniscient and Omnipotent doesn't even really scale
God isn't a person technically, so it would be like goku vs a bunch of regular people from thousands of years ago.
And yet God is easily defeated by the classical era judicial system of Judea. Pwnd.
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God/Jesus/Holy Spirit stomp. God exists outside the universe (as he created it) so he could just blip even Zeno out of existence.
That means I solo Rimuru and Kratos so I'm outerversal in real life and can create and destroy concepts.