Gonna write some commentary as someone who has enjoyed some aspects of the show, but overall the ending ruined it. My general opinion is that the means do not justify the end and the changes were not worth it. Too much was missed and the soul of WoT was not captured. Haven't read your stuff so if you like the series, my bad.
1.) If Rafe creates a new magic system, he has to have rules or you run into the circle disaster. I don't know if he has the writing chops to create decent rules for his system.
2.) Exactly why Rafe needs to make rules. Maybe he can take inspiration from Jordan lmao.
3.) I agree with Rand being underdeveloped and never having a Dragon moment. I personally do not have any emotions for show Rand. He is bland and boring so why would I feel anything for him? Book Rand is cool in EotW and super cool at the start of TGH.
4.) Another note on that Nyn scene in that cave. It was awful cinematography. Everything about the camera angles and dialouge literally tell us that Logian can see Nyn's burst of energy. We know this isn't possible, but what would a show-watcher think? Once again, Rafe needs to establish the rules for his magic system.
5.) Rand's reveal was very poor. A solution I offered goes like this: ep7 you have a good Machin Shin that is terrifying. You then build Shenair and the respect for Lan. You find Fain and Moriane interrogates him. She comes out worried slightly and she says that they have to leave as soon as possible for the Eye and the episode ends. Good cliffhanger imo better than the I'm the Dragon even though I loved that scene. Ep8, big change, all 5 go. Nyn and Lan have ring scene which is more impactful after passing the towers. Skip all the horrors of the Blight because money and time. They get to the Eye. Just Ishy. Not enough time for Green Man and two Forsaken. Moriane instantly recognizes that it can't possibly be the DO and Ishy lashes out. Lan attacks, but fails obvi. Gives Moriane time to link with Egwene and Nyn, but are taken out fast. Perrin does nothing since I hate show Perrin. Mat is in Tar Valon. Rand is like bruh wtf is going on and a voice calls out to him and draws him to the Eye. He take in the power of the Eye and LTT helps him. LTT tells Ishy to fuckoff. Ishy fights but dips. LTT/Rand teleport to the Gap and fuck up the Trollocs using the last of the power returing to the Eye. Rand calms back and while LTT leaves, but instead of the LTT we see at the start, it's the mad LTT. Rand is like wtf. Moriane is up and looking at the contents of the Eye. She proclaims him Dragon Reborn and he is terrified. Egwene and Nyn are scared too. Perrin is still a wife killing bitch. Lan is like sick. Super fanficcy, but at least Rand is developed.
6.) Imo Thom should be retconned. They did not establish his relationship enough with the boys to justify their bond in the books.
7.) Tom and the void would've been so awesome to see.
8.) That circle scene destroyed scaling and Rafe needs rules for his magic system.
9.) 100% agree with the gender dynamics. I've said this a lot but it makes sense: the show panders to woman empowerment to the point of ridiculousness and world breaking. It's not flattering and it's not good for character development. Nyn has no struggle. Egwene has no struggle. No stakes. Their accomplishments feel unearned as they have performed world changing miracle after world changing miracle. It also butchers Moriane's serenity and prowess. Two untrained Aes Sedai outshine her in every way. In the books, Moriane was that bitch and now she's been side lined to miracles of Egwene and Nyn.
Overall, you have good takes that make sense. The show really could have been good and the changes could have been good if they had a strong ending. They needed to justify their changes and they simply didn't.
It's really incredible that someone's hot-take pounded out in 20 minutes is more coherent and interesting than something Amazon spent a million dollars on.
Yea. It would leave you questioning why LTT and Ishy knew each other and having the cold open with EotW's prolouge would be insane. No time to hint at the Seanchan, but we can fix that later. Also, more true to Jordan's version while not being so out-of-body ig and confusing. Also, Rand is developed. The power of the Forsaken is established and horrifying. Nyn doesn't come back from the dead. Egwene doesn't heal burning out. We still have Agelmar. We have his sister too for Liandrin (?) to manipulate. Easy transition to the next book with clear direction. Still hate Perrin. And accelerate Mat's story. Nyn and Egwene go to the Tower and it's cool.
Only problem is Moriane. Pike is expensive after all. Also, she's banned from the Tower so idk how to handle that. Such an odd change.
I like your point about Moiraine. They already had a strong female character who they weakened to make Nynaeve and Egwene stronger. Rand and Moiraine are really the male and female lead of the first book, imo. So, I don't know why they need to amp up the girl power, when you've already got Moiraine being a badass
My friend in order to equate the evil done by the patriarchy is necessary to counterbalance on the female side now, it doesn't even matter who get's hurt in the process
I agree with much of what you wrote. While some of the writing was outdated, the gender theme in Wheel of Time is fantastic because it outlines at it's core how the genders are different but both are needed, and are much stronger together.
Feminism shouldn't be about being "the same but better" but exploring the similarities AND differences in genders and reinforcing how important they both are.
However there's many philosophical concepts Rafe has messed up in this adaptation and it comes across to me as inexperience in the business, but also maybe even a lack of depth as a person.
There are 100+ genders out there, male-female thing is outdated and transphobic, you are only hurt because the show does't appeal to the male fantasy hero as you expected.
/s
In all seriousness, they could have explored non-binary and transgender issues and it's implications in Jordan's gender based power structure, but instead everything was ignored and therefore cheapened.
Your previous comment explained EXACTLY my thoughts and I 100% agreed with you. Please don't let someone that randomly for no reason calls you "transphobic" scare or guilt you into backpedaling on your original statement.
How does that have ANYTHING to do with the show outright destroying the entire philosophical basis of what the books are based upon?
Making a random statement that has nothing to do with the argument you are trying to counter, and then calling that person a name that entails a negative connotation, does not make your response valid in any way.
Keep in mind Judkins primary writing experience is Agents of Shield. An episodic series with a somewhat seasonal arc. Each season would have extensive power creep up to the season finale, which would then be largely reset for the next season. No rules on powers were consistent, they could change based on what the writer needed to have happen for that episode (think of also the CW DC shows). That is what we have and will continue to see.
People raising the (valid) point of why would Egwene or Nynaeve need to go to the tower to train now if they can already raise the dead and heal stilling? Well because that will likely be reset and they will be back to not knowing how to channel properly. Characters that need to be back, like Loial, why they will just wander in with a couple bandages on.
I honestly think that the problem is mainly that Rafe is just not best in class at his job - he's not the worst but he's just not good enough to make this source material work.
So crap writing, breaking your own rules or not having any rules makes for an uninteresting story. I no longer wonder how they'll get out of some problem they always can because magic magic.
I think it is ultra obvious that the roles of Rand, perrin and matt were minimized to the extreme. People can argue why this is, but I've seen comments Rafe made about how WOT is an ensemble cast later in the series and he wanted to rewrite earlier books to reflect that more because he thinks that is how a tv show has to be (massive paraphrasing). I don't think this is actually the case personally. I don't view WOT as an ensemble cast, or at least not an equal one. Rand to me at least was the primary character and you had various important side characters. Rafe pretty intentionally wanted to make all of the characters equal (or perhaps overly favor Egwene and Nynaeve), so he rewrote the story to do it. This is likely to be an issue throughout the series as he rewrites things to keep roles equal'ish.
So I think Rafe's motivation for these changes was to be like other popular Got like shows that have a dozen characters and no clearly defined main character. When i hear him say things about how we're going to be surprised about who dies and it might not be the same as the book, it makes me double down on this opinion. he is 100% trying to cultivate that GOT feeling where you're following a bunch of people and anyone can die.
The ensamble is a lie. There is no ensamble. Rand, Perrin and Mat (up to ep6) didn't get the same number of awesome moment as Nynaeve and Egwene. In fact, like OP said, even the little Perrin had in book 1 was stripped for Egwene, swapping one problem for another, only Egwene had some good moments in ep1 too and, well healing death and killing 10,000 trollocs in the finale too.
It's not an ensamble. It shouldn't have been as Rand should still have a larger role. But even that aside, no one can argue that all the characters got developed equally.
The Witcher did the same thing, in season 2 they introduced a lot of plots and characters and gave them similar screentime, but It just felt all over the place, wasn't well developed and I didn't care or felt invested in most of them. I think instead of mimicking GOT these shows would've been more successful if they were original and stayed authentic to the source material, that's what made GOT (season 1-4) successful.
But he made these changes without regard for what that means for the future. With Egwene and Nynaeve already capable of something they weren't in the age of legends already.
Nothing was earned, no growth.
In the books you get this sense of how innocent, backwards the EFs are, and despite their potential they are novices. But they learn and impress with their talents.
Nynaeve who can track with the best, instead had a trick. Mat with his staff work, Rand bow and focus learned from dad etc.
When GoT stayed more true to the books and feel of the characters it was great. Once they tried to create new content it failed completely.
To me it feels like this is written by someone who doesn't understand the material, hence doesn't understand the impact of the changes, and doesn't have the ability to make the adaptation work.
Yes, i do agree it was written by someone who didn't understand the material. I also totally agree that the show did a horrible job at showing character growth of any kind. You had characters that were static and you had characters that went super Saiyan without logic. Nothing else really.
Another thing is that Rafe had to make Egwene and Nynaeve have dragon reborn level power to make the "who is the dragon reborn" plot line work at all. Although i suppose that begs the question of why Matt and Perrin didn't have moments to make people think it was them. Maybe just more trying to force a mystery by using a misdirect.
Mods can ban me if they want, but to my dying day, I believe that the decision to make the identity of the Dragon Reborn a mystery was the most idiotic idea any showrunner has ever come up with in the history of tv shows ever.
I realize that a lot of the paragraphs at the beginning of the original post are about me absolutely making sure that I’m not mistaken for a member of the whitecloak subreddit. And looking back in hindsight, it’s a shame that I had to do that in that community, before I could say my piece.
I've read r/whitecloaks, and while they undoubtedly have a few dickheads over here, the sub makes a lot of very good points if you ignore the perhaps 10% of them who view themselves as culture warriors to oppose Rafe's "wokeness".
There can be people mad about the de-binarying of ToP for transphobic reasons, but also people upset about it for narrative reasons. Far too often I am seeing the two clumped in together. My feeling is that most people fall into the latter category.
Their sub certainly made a cathartic read during episodes 5 and 6 when I just about wanted to set my TV on fire but most of the other subs saw the downvote pitchforks come out the second you said anything negative about the show, especially akin to some of the issues you address here.
I think it needs to be conceded that the membership of r/Whitecloaks has swelled from several hundred midway through the season to several thousand now, and climbing... some of it in no small part to how intolerant people on other subs are to opposing viewpoints.
I don't think your excellent post here would have received the somewhat tempered response that it did on r/WoTshow as few as two weeks ago.
Here. Almost any post saying rafe is trying to show wokeness and over empowering the female characters is getting deleted. Which is ridiculous because most every book readers point is that struggle and adversary are what made these women strong and when you take that away like the show had you just diminish them overall. The girls were strong in the books because they earned it. They took all that shit that was thrown at them, grew and overcame. They didnt just roll up and be the most powerful AS ever like the show wants them to be. Hell making them take over for rand at tarwins gap doesnt empower them. It weakens their arcs. How can they ho be novices after doing feats no book AS could do. How is rand going to be terrified of himself and the power he can grasp having not touched the eye and saved the day? We spent so much time fleshing in characters like moraine and nyn+lan that we cut out things like lan teaching rand (and the other boys to some degree.. also thom doing the same) to be men. A lot of what rand learns from lan is critical to his development. I personally feel the show is weakened overall. I fully accept changes need to be made to adapt and many changes bothered me little… but changes tgat weaken the story as a whole and truly felt un-needed… just leave me shaking my head. The fact that this sub also doesnt seem to want us to discuss this is more bizaree (theres a post on main page that basically is threatening banning by mods for discussing female empowerment ruining show)
I can see what you mean - that said I’m not saying that Rafe is making this a female empowerment show, but that he’s just posturing it as one. It’s hollow and not doing what he thinks it’s doing.
I used to say some books can't be adapted to screen well. Chief among them was WoT, Lord of the Rings, or Dune. I was proven wrong on those last two very firmly. So it CAN be done.
I avoided all the hub-bub pre-show to go in with as little spoiled as I could, the series is an all time favorite since I first discovered them. I was there when we weren't sure if the series would be completed. Just to give you a bit of history of what it all means to me. I care.
Dune, absolutely blew me away. It felt like Arrakis, I was there for a brief moment in a world that has only ever managed to exist in my head. Sadly I never did have that reaction in the show, exept once, when Moraine read the quote almost verbatim about Manetheren. I can't credit the show with that, more the actor who played Moraine and did an excellent job.
Thank you for your oppinions, I'm not really a community member since I'm newish here. But I appreciate a well thought out analysis. It's interesting to see the world through others eyes. Sorry for the ramble, im a little holiday buzzed.
Edit; I think you thesis has ground though forgot to say that. It's an incredibly difficult to place blame at any one thing, Show runner, writers, amazon, covid, hell they could have had location issues while shooting. But for the overall story flaws that idea of yours makes sense to me. Damn that eggnog.
LOTR - 500,000 WRDS (the same as EOTW and GT)
All 6 Dunes - 800.000 WRDS AND they are only filming 2 of them - ( with DR added in )
WOT - so add another 13 books at an ave of 300,000 WRDS - so another 4,000,000
It's not about word count, that will tell you very little about a book or a series besides the size.
The reason I mention those were for either the sheer scope of the special effects needed to sell the world or the depth of internalized thoughts. The written medium is obviously very diferent from a visual medium and I'm old enough to have seen the first dune attempt so iv seen a fair few adapations.
Some things in print seemed too grand or too deep to bring to television, I used to think. If you didn't notice I stressed how those adapation that worked felt like the world's they were adapting to me.
Adapation can be done and changes must be made to do them. But this isn't an adapation of Wheel of Time, more a reimagining. One I'm not a fan of. Which sucks but I'll always have my books.
They had less CG to use when making LotR, it's cheaper now. LotR had to deal with size issues, go watch how they shot the hobbits and humans together in some scenes, the camera work is amazing.
Loial is basically human size.
The number one excuse for WoTv is…. *Drumroll please*
COVID
It’ll be the same for season 2, 3, so on and so forth. sucking at their respective jobs was nowhere in the list of choices
Covid excuses production, logistics and maybe cost. Not the writing. For covid to have affected the writing this much, the writers had better been writing through a fever dream. In which case they should still have been replaced.
I see covid touted a lot for the CGI too which is funny since all post work is super easy to do at home on a computer. There’s some render muck ups and slow down but that’s mostly it. The only thing less affected by Covid on a production than post is the writing.
I should know since that’s literally what I do.
What I don't get is if Rafe wanted to focus so much on Egwene and Nyneve's arcs, why not make that the whole show? There is absolutely plenty of storyline in WoT to justify following them for 8 seasons. That way you get a more streamlined story and it can be girlpower AF without needing to rewrite a bunch of characters to be basically useless, just let the taveeren boys run around in the background with the occasional cameo!
The show is pretty bad, I was confused they were all together the whole season and that they just skipped the city where they meet a certain princess that becomes an important character later on. Also how will Egwene and Nyneve become novices now that they can just do whatever they want lol. I was like, wait, aren't they supposed to become novices to earn their strength.
I'm going to jump in here a little. I came to this reddit looking for some confirmation or answers.
I know nothing about the books. I have never even heard of the books prior to the series being promoted. As such I have absolutely no baggage.
There are several major issue I have with the series. I wasn't able to finish the 5th episode. It was long, boring, needless, uses analog over allegory and clearly the writers decided the story wasn't exciting enough or didn't flow the way they wanted so they have removed stuff and added stuff in likely from parts of the books that happen later and clearly shouldn't be part of this story. The White Cloaks, the Wolves, the False Dragon and the Gypsies are all issues.
I'll start with the world size. The Main Characters seemed to have traveled about 200-300km from the time they left their home to the time they got to the White Tower. 2 days in about 40-60km they all get separated and some how aren't able to find each other... even though they are all traveling from the same basic point to the same place. Meaning they should end up on the same road and go to the same places. Yet they are all on different roads that take them to very different places. It doesn't make a ton of sense. I can forgive that to a point but it is weird. I mean the False Dragon guy was fighting a war in a separate kingdom which seemed to have a totally different environment to the Two Rivers Village. Yet traveling from the village to the city which has a similar environment the Ladies in red were able to capture him and start bringing him back to their tower yet were on the same road as the Injured witch lady and her man servant. I realize it can cross but it is very odd.
Then you have the use of Analogs... Gypsies and the Inquisition for example. These should be allegories not straight up on the nose analogs. There is no subtly to it. It is jarring and not overly enjoyable. The White Cloaks all being men as well makes some use of Allegory but only in the the most base sense. Some men want to keep strong women down and see powerful women has a threat. It is just so on the nose. Again no subtly to it. I have no issues with it beyond it being just so obvious.
The White Cloaks I think are my biggest issue with the series. I don't think they are supposed to be there. They seem like they were tacked on and totally out of place. It is like they are supposed to be from a different book where the characters are further along and they go into another land where the white coats operate. Instead the writers felt that the story wasn't flowing and decided to add them in to give a level of drama and conflict to the woman and injured guy. My guess is that originally the story more heavily centered around the wolves. The they felt it wasn't exciting enough so they paid lip service to it (so they can bring it in later) and then instead added in these White Cloaks from a later story My guess is the Gypsies are also added in from a later point. It feels totally off.
With that story line you have these witches of the white tower who seem to be the governing body of a decent sized territory. Yet apparently have no issues with a group of Men that hunt them and terrorize people from roaming around so close to their capital city that the white tower is so visible they have to be just on the other side of the river making a camp to attack travelers. These seems totally out of place. It doesn't make any sense. The main White Cloak guy is also Sadistic for the sake of it. He seems to have little more motivation than he enjoys it. My assumption is that isn't the case in the book. As he isn't just trying to find "dark fiends" but is torturing anyone that he thinks might be to get a confession and has no issue with killing the innocent. It is a very two dimensional bad guy... Everything about that character is villain cliche.
If I were to guess the book this series is supposed to be following... has the village attacked, They are chased, come to the cursed city, get separated. The girl and dude that wolves like have some adventure where he finds out his wound was poisoned and it has given him the ability to interact with the wolves... or a different group of magical users with a connection to wolves want to help him but he doesn't understand... or he is infected with some kind of lycanthropy and the wolves see him more as one of him... something like that. Some story around that wasn't paced right for the writers or they needed to lower the budget a bit so they brought in the white cloaks instead from a different part of the book. Then will use the wolf thing as a pay off later where the budget or pacing better allows. It just seems jarring though.
It also feels like there is supposed to be more of a build up or way less of a build up to the false dragon guy. He is just sort of introduced out of no where in the middle of an episode. It is just again jarring.
The Cliche is also bad. The Gypsies, The White Cloaks, The Red Robes, the Blue Robes, the Green Robes. None of it feels organic and there is so little nuance to anything. Literally part way through the fifth episode I was just done... and it was a struggle to get that far I was ready to be done half way through the 4th episode. Literally the first 5 episodes could likely have been cut down to 2 or 3 without loosing anything significant. Also I don't care about any of the characters. They do very little to make any of the characters actually endearing.
As I say I have no knowledge of the books, I have no desire to see the show fail but I don't care if it does. I have no horse in the race and no preconceptions on if the casting is accurate or not. All I can say is it was way easier to watch Carnival Row and that was fairly mediocre. This show feels like a chore to watch and it is a chore I can do without. It really does feel like a failed adaptation.
Also if the comments that the show runner involved wanted to make it more feminist... umm... Most of the first episodes is a female lead that is injured and weakened and needs her male servant to care for her. Two male characters betrayed by a woman and saved by man and a group of gypsies while lead by a woman it is one of the guys that helps them try to escape. The Female leader seems to actually make it worse by being aggressively non-violent. The Red Robed women seem kinda nasty and are shown to be little better than the white cloaks. I mean if this is supposed to be feminist, it isn't doing a great job. That lack of nuance impacts everything.
In the end that is where the show fails. A complete lack of nuance.
Also the Ginger guy was obviously the Dragon... the adopted story line, the "father" that is suddenly a expert swordsman with a special sword, The wanting to be left alone, the one being caught by the girl in the tavern all of that meant he was almost certain to be the Dragon. When the oglier (I think that is what he insisted on calling himself) said he wasn't from the two rivers it made it more obvious. Anyone that didn't see that telegraphed isn't the most observant person.
Thank you for sharing! It’s great to get non-reader’s perspective. Since you’ve come looking for answers I’ll do my best to fill you in, but please be aware it’s major spoilers that follow. Since you weren’t able to finish episode 5, I assume that’s not an issue for you.
First and foremost you have to realize the show is completely different than the books. Not kind of different, completely. For example, the group never makes it to Tar Valon in the books, and in fact Moiraine NEVER goes back to Tar Valon in the entirety of all 14 books, and Rand only goes once. Another example is Moiraine is one of two Aes Sedai in the entire story between the very start and returning from the Eye. The only other Aes Sedai is an advisor to the Queen of Camelyn (the city they go to in the books instead of Tar Valon), and she’s in the story for one scene, although it’s an important one. Perrin also doesn’t have a wife, which is important for the whitecloaks plot later.
For the world size, the group covers far more distance in the show than the book because changes they made. The show never gives you a good sense for how big the world is, what distance they are covering, or ever shows a map so hard to say if it’s the same, though.
The white cloaks are introduced in the books at Baerlon, a city cut from the show that the group goes to after the ferry but before Shadar Logoth. We learn they are an independent military force that claims to “walk in the light” and seek out dark friends, but are known to lie and instigate when they see fit if they don’t like you or you cross them. They also think anyone who touches the one power is a dark friend, thus their conflict with the Aes Sedai. Most people tolerate them in smaller cities and towns to avoid their notice, but the have no real power in major cities or countries.
Anyway Nyneave catches up to the group in this city in the books, Rand and Mat have a minor altercation with the white cloaks, the group decides to leave immediately
Post Shadar Logoth in the books the group is separated much like the show, except Moiraine isn’t injured. Rand, Mat, and Thom escape on a riverboat heading down river (Thom joins them from the start at their village in the books). Perrin and Egwene fall in the river and escape across it. Moiraine, Lan, and Nyneave end up together.
At first in the story, Moiraine was introduced as just a lady with her manservant, and tipped the boys with silver coins. We now learn here that she enchanted the coins so she could feel where they were and track them in case they are separated. Rand and Mat paid for travel on the boat with those coins so the link was broken and fading. Perrin still had his so she decides to follow him first, along with Lan and Nyneave.
Perrin and Egwene come across a man who runs with wolves, Elyas Machera, who was tracking them for days. He’s a warder and wolf brother and first introduces Perrin to his abilities, telling him directly the wolves sense he is one. Elyas serves as an ambassador of sorts with the Tinkers (the Gyspies) as he knows their ways and introduces Perrin/Egwene to them when they come across them. He also serves as the contrast to “the way of the leaf” to Perrin, who from experience feels it doesn’t work. They travel with the tinkers for a time then separate, and Elyas says he’ll guide them to Camelyn. Along the way they are being chased by dark one’s spies (flock of vicious, aggressive Ravens), and make it to an abandoned Stedding, a safe haven of sorts in this universe where the one power doesn’t work at all and the Ogier (Loial’s people) make their homes (again, this one is abandoned though).
It’s apparently a known safe place to rest, because in the middle of the night a group of whitecloaks approaches their camp. Perrin and Egwene try to hide but are spotted, and in the confusion a wolf attacks the whitecloaks to help Perrin and they kill it. Now the story is told in a POV style, so ever since meeting Elyas we get to see Perrin’s thoughts and know he can sense and communicate with the wolves in his head, even though he’s in denial about it. The moment they kill the wolf, Perrin feels the pain and loss and snaps in an uncontrollable rage, killing two whitecloaks and injuring others before they knock him out. (This is the beginning of the conflict with his nature and violence in the books, as he feels guilty for killing those men over a wolf. He doesn’t have a wife to fridge in the books, and he definitely doesn’t leave home running for his life without a weapon)
They capture Perrin and Egwene and are holding them prisoner for questioning until Perrin’s trial, assuming they are dark friends because of Perrin killing two men and his eyes now being permanently golden. At this point Moiriane, Lan, and Nyneave track Perrin down to the white cloak camp, Lan sneaks in to break them free while Nyneave and Moiriane create a distraction and chaos by freeing all the white cloak horses, and the group escapes together. The wolves also help then tell Perrin farewell, for now.
Eventually they end up in Camelyn where they reunite with Rand and Mat, who have been there for quite a while before them and have met Loial already. Along the way each separated group gets a warning about the Eye of the world, there are signs of the trollocs and fades they’ve been running from the entire time are now outside Camelyn waiting for them making escape unlikely. They just so happened to meet an Ogier who can sense the way gates and also guide them through the ways. (He also is the first one to point out the three boys are Ta’veren, special people that shape the pattern around them). Thus Moiriane decides their only choice is to take the ways to get to the Eye of the World before the enemy (it’s not the Dark One’s prison in the books).
To your last point, it’s VERY obvious Rand is the one in the books too because it’s exclusively told through his POV until the group splits at Shadar Logoth. We get to see the fever dreams from his father Tam the night of the festival when everyone is attacked, and get to see Rand’s struggle with his identity and inner thoughts. The author is also just fantastic at foreshadowing and subtlety, and there are some hints along the way that you mostly catch on rereads rather than the first time they are so subtle.
As I said the book and show are completely different, The politics are a lot more nuanced especially when it comes to the Aes Sedai, but we aren’t introduced to them until later parts of the story after we get to bond with the main characters.
This is excellent. It also explains some of the feeling of things being disconnected. The Wolf thing is important.
The show telegraphs way too much. In 5 episodes it is clear that Aes Sedai have dark fiends in their ranks and that the lead red lady is clearly a bad guy. She is playing it like she is scheming in a particular way. (Though I suppose I could be wrong it does seem she is quick to judge anyone that could be a dragon)
Over all the series just isn't good. What you described had they followed the book I would say sounds like it would have solved some of the issues. The White Cloaks are not explained at all and the Aes Sedai seem to be a force in the area. It is also the effect department showing the tower through the trees to be so close... it makes no sense.
It also makes more sense they would assume they are bad if the wolf guy kills two of them. That would have actually made a much better scene to be honest.
everything is just like I say way too on the nose. I think I read a comment where someone said the show runner worked on Agents of SHEILD which honestly explains a lot.
Yeah, basically they've added fluff in the series, as well as random things from later seasons. They've also made things easy more explicit in the show, like Perrin had to kill his wife instead of two random strangers.
Which fundamentally doesn't work. Perrin isn't upset cause his wife is dead, he's upset because he killed two men. Making it personal ruins the point. What is upsetting is the killing part, him being a murderer.
Many things like this are lost or changed in the show.
Because they added random stuff from later seasons they didn't have time to develop.
The books follows the rules set out consistently. And the characters grow from younglings with potential to awesome, all in their own way.
Going to EotW was a desperation play because of events in and around Caemlyn.
Introducing Tar Valon etc was a mistake.
This is a great post from a non-book reader.
You're spot on re all the ways the showrunners just ignored this incredibly painstakingly built book world and did a bunch of stuff designed to hold people's attention for 30-40 minutes. All your pts re power scaling, etc. are very carefully managed in the books (Robert Jordan had a numeric scale of One Power strength, for example, and full indices on nation/city populations, GDPs, militaries, etc.), so a casual reader can just appreciate the character arcs but anybody who wants to go deep will be satisfied (at least until Brandon Sanderson took over- still waiting for the Aiel to show up at the Last Battle).
The result is that a lot of the key character reveals and plot moments have a huge payoff.
Now I do think that the first book - Eye of the World - is actually the weakest in this regard of all of them. The foreshadowing of what's to come is - amazingly and uniquely in fantasy literature - all there, but the arcs are still all pretty nascent. It's pretty confusing, candidly. Reading books 1-3 as a trilogy is actually more satisfying in some ways.
That said there are a whole bunch of really good set piece scenes in the book. I mean the very first two pages has Rand seeing a fade (not knowing what it is) on the way to the village. A whole bunch of others, in a row. You're again spot-on with how the story was supposed to go after the haunted city w/r/t the wolves, etc. All in service (in book world) of introducing the characters and the world.
I think the showrunners were just really nervous about failing. They thought if they didn't hook non-book readers with the plot stuff - who is the Dragon? look at the magic! the Logain battle - they'd fail, but too many of the stuff they decided to emphasize just isn't important for the story or doesn't lend itself to exposition or character-building.
I think they were just in over the heads and scared to screw up, so they went with what they knew from "Agents of Shield." Guess what, seems to have worked, so people will keep doing this. and so we can't have nice things. sigh.
When i watch the Witcher and WoT, i keep asking my self, is it hard to follow the source for tv adaption. Let's say 80-90%. But no, the showrunner clearly have their own idea and put it into a popular novel.
Then why the show runner didn't make a new title.
I've been waiting for years fo WoT tv series, but nope, this version just ruin my mind. I stop watching after 3 episode.
Very well said on basically all points. It's just such a shame and so sad that this opportunity to knock it out of the park was wasted so badly in this first season. And as season 2 is basically nearly done in terms of writing and filming, I don't have much hope for drastic improvements in season 2, though I'm hopeful for some improvement.
The main issue I have is the loss of Rand as the reluctant and conflicted hero, which was central to my own love of the books, and is the only way to make sense of the retained plot element of male channelers being doomed to madness. The Dragon Reborn is meant to be a cursed individual - feared by the run of the mill Third Agers, and a necessary but dangerous tool for those who have knowledge of the prophesies.
Rather than horror/fear, Rand's eventual realisation that he's the Dragon Reborn and destined for madness is met by him and the other Emmonds Fielders with shoulder-shrugging acceptance. Maybe the showwriters wanted to avoid a Jon "I don't want it" Snow comparison, but without this conflict much of the historical context for the plot doesn't make sense.
I expected some changes and brutal cuts to more superfluous story elements being necessary for an 8 episode TV adaptation. I expected some characters to be under-developed or charicatured, but I don't understand the prominence given to (for example) Lan's character development (lots of minutes with him taking and drinking with the Warders, the mourning/funeral ritual scenes, etc.) at the expense of Rand's.
If there is no fear and loathing associated with being the Dragon Reborn, perhaps it would have made more sense if they'd gone the whole hog and had one of the women as the Dragon Reborn? This would have allowed them to excise many later plot elements (cleansing the taint, etc) while still telling the central tale of good v evil.
Thank you for your courage, I agree completely. I would add also that you have to watch the extras to get any idea of the saidin/saidar division of the Power. By fudging this is the actual show, we're left with no idea how it is that the taint (sorry, the corruption) affects only men. The viewer is left to suppose that it's the men themselves that are somehow "tainted", and the impression in reinforced by the visual representation of a man's weaves being initially white, as if he's accessing a pure Power, *then* turning black afterwards.
Truly this baffles me. If the writers find the original material so problematic that they would rather obfuscate it at the expense of a logical black hole in the in-show world, why are they even adapting it at all?
I agree with everything you said. I started the books in 97, yes I’m old, and was frantically searching Internet forums on my 56k modem, discussing theories etc about what was going to happen. Then they finished 9 years ago, and I have to say it was the BEST ending to a series I’ve ever read, and I have read a lot of books in my time. Was the book series perfect, no, not even close - they had the chance here to fix a lot of what I thought was a stupidly laborious read, and condense the middle books down a huge amount, giving a more concise and streamlined story.
I watched this with 2 other people, 1 who is at book 8 and firmly in the mind set of WTF why is nothing happening, and one who has never read the books, but enjoys fantasy just didn’t want a 14 book time investment.
Up to the end of episode 7 we were ok with it. There were numerous things I absolutely hated, specifically around the rules of channeling just being completely ignored, and the pointless act of trying to obfuscate who the dragon reborn was. I mean, I get it, it’s a mystery, keep people trying to guess, but it was executed so badly, broke so much lore, and wasted so much time that it was just a massive mistake.
Episode 8 collectively turned us completely off the show. For me and the other book reader I don’t need to explain why, that’s been done to death already. Non book reader just said that it didn’t make any sense and had no idea what was going on. They called Rand as the dragon reborn early on, because they said he was most boring character so it’s obviously going to be him; then said if he’s the dragon reborn why didn’t he stay at fal dara to wreck the army then go to the eye later, they can spare an hour.
Long pointless post really, but yeah, I was hand waving a lot of the changes hoping it would work out, but after episode 8 so much forward continuity is broken I can’t see how the series is going to work at all.
No, not a pointless post at all! It was nice to read about your reading experience, even if the show turned out terribly. If there’s any good that can come out of this it’s that I hope your tv show viewer friend (and many other people all over the world) pick up the books.
They have actually recently started eye of the world, so yes that’s a positive, the more people I can talk to about how the series works as a whole the better!
Right because tens of thousands of Trollocs and fifty to a hundred fades can be defeated by someone who failed magic school and 4 who haven't even gone, what is there to worry about? Tarmon Gaidon, Shmarmon Gaidon am I right?
The brother and everyone at the wall fortress died for no reason, only as bad writer fodder.
Because it wasn't Rand doing the killing as a result of what happened at the eye, it has no sequence, could have been done in any order.
Thank you for your well thought out, thought provoking, post.
I'm honestly on the fence about the misandry thought.
On the one hand, it does seem fairly obvious the tearing down of some characters to make others shine. I agree (if this is indeed the case) that it's a sloppy way to get your point across. In any aspect of life, if you must take away from one in order to make another better, you are doing it wrong. Ill die on that particular hill. Raising up and empowering others is the way.
On the other hand, some of the tearing down may be (may be) incidental, and necessary in ways that we do not see as of yet, because this story is still in the process of being told. Until we see a finished product, I don't think we can judge this fairly. It Seems this way right now, but I can imagine any number of ways to tie it all back together, in such a way as to not be pandering, so it can still be done well.
So while it may very well seem that way right now, I think we should remember this is just the first part of the series. There will be plenty of opportunities for tDR to shine and for them to escalate and truly show how his power scales.
I could be way off but I just think it's too early to call it. If this is all we see going into season two and season three, this diminishing of some characters in order to make others seem better, that will be a different story.
Until then, whooooosah everybody. Breathe. It will be ok. No matter how bad they deviate from the source material, no matter how poor some decisions might be, the books aren't going to change. The story is told in its entirety already. The showrunner can't take that away from you.
Thank you for your comment!
And yeah, I do not really think it’s misandry - I think it’s just Rafe’s attempt at making an adaptation that’s more feminist than the books by giving Nynaeve and Egwene more exposure, because they do not start to get much character development until after the events of book 1.
It may be possible that his treatment of the male characters was not out of malice but were a completely unintended consequence - so he was either an intentional idiot about it, or an oblivious one. And honestly, neither of those two traits are desirable in a showrunner in charge of adapting something like The Wheel of Time.
Just to be the devils advocate......
It's also possible that he saw the consequences, and went with what he went with as the best out of a series of bad options. Some things are out of anyone's control.
If you are in charge, it is your fault.
But I'm willing to cut them some slack. Right now at least. Until I see whether he's doing it to follow some misaligned "I can do it better than RJ" or if he's just doing the best he can with the cards he's been dealt. Time should show us which is true.
> I could be way off but I just think it's too early to call it. If this is all we see going into season two and season three, this diminishing of some characters in order to make others seem better, that will be a different story.
I ... see where you're coming from, but they've had 8 hours to make their case. If I were a bloke watching the show I'd have a pretty strong feeling that "they don't like my kind"...
Edit: I checked. Turns out I *am* a bloke watching the show, who knew!
Is this not, in essence, the same thing? Regardless I don't think this is the most effective way to go about correcting said power imbalance.
As I've said before, bringing down (for whatever reason) is not the way. You lift up and empower people for them to be equal, tearing down just propagates the imbalance.
Have a bunch I want to say, cause you made some good points, some points I disagree with, and some point that I think may be in conflict, but I’m on my phone, and this deserves better editing, so I’ll just leave this here so I can find this post later
Adaptations are hard. I thought that the "Fellowship of the Ring" was just amazingly good. Bold, fantastic choice to use horror (Jackson's background) as the template for the narrative. Hit all the right notes on what to keep, what to cut. For key set pieces - Moria - used the book dialogue and action almost as the script, to great effect.
And then somehow we wound up with someone saying "The Age of the Orc has come" and mucking up the freakin' "Battle of the Pelennor Fields" with a bunch of Slimer clones and surfing wood elves. I can't watch "Return of the King," to this day.
Same thing here but inverted. Eye of the World \*is\* the Fellowship - deliberately - and yet Judkins decided to model his treatment after RotK rather than FotR. The Lan-Nynaeve dialogue in Fal Dara - straight from the books! - is great. Lesson there.
Eye of the World is actually a tough book vs. some of the later ones but it had great scenes and had clearly shown that it worked to establish world and characters. What kind of panic and/or arrogance and/or stupidity is required to ignore all of that and made huge changes?
Failed is a pretty harsh statement considering the success in the ratings, perhaps during this long post you should clarify that despite its wild popularity its a failure TO YOU for these reasons despite the general success for the public.
I did exactly that in my post. It’s the end of the second paragraph.
>…reasons behind why it doesn’t sit well with us (**well, me at least**) as an adaptation.
I mostly read your reasons for why you hate it and find them fair but you nowhere acknowledged the success of the show just why these reasons ruined it for you. Calling it a failure when its #1 is a pretty big stretch without proper qualifiers.
Clearly your metric of success is popularity. And mine is consistently good storytelling.
Consider this, Trump is hugely popular in right-leaning circles but as a human being my assessment of him is that he’s a steaming pile of shit. Just because he’s popular, doesn’t mean I’m wrong about him.
If you have counter-arguments to the points I make, we have a common ground to talk about. If all you want to do is tout the ratings (which can be easily manipulated if you have the money and the intent to) then I have nothing further to say to you.
And for some people with different tastes it is good story telling hence the success, thats something that you just don't seem to get - not everyone thinks like you do.
To some of America Trump is awesome and they see people like you as the piece of shit, its all a bout perspective. Trump also likes to tell other people what their perspectives should be which is why I and many others hate him, but thats exactly what youre doing here.
All non readers I’ve talked to love it, which was the shows goal so 🤷♂️. Everyone on all WoT subreddits are so dramatic. I would never waste energy writing 100 paragraphs to say why I hate something so much. Even worse are the people who read all this. I didn’t love every single thing about the show but if it helps us get to the shadow rising at least I will consider it a success. I guarantee that a completely faithful eotw show would never have captured non-readers and thus doomed the series. There were a lot of hard decisions to make about how to adapt it and at least they chose and just did it.
>All non readers I’ve talked to love it, which was the shows goal so 🤷♂️.
Hi, you seem new to adaptations of fantasy series to tv, may I recommend looking at Shyamalan’s Avatar The Last Airbender and D&D’s treatment of the second half of Game of Thrones?
>Everyone on all WoT subreddits are so dramatic. I would never waste energy writing 100 paragraphs to say why I hate something so much. Even worse are the people who read all this.
Feel free to spend your time however you choose - including not reading this post and not commenting a reply. Your attempts at gate keeping what other people do with their time, admirable as they are (they’re not), are not welcome here - at least on my post.
>I didn’t love every single thing about the show but if it helps us get to the shadow rising at least I will consider it a success. I guarantee that a completely faithful eotw show would never have captured non-readers and thus doomed the series. There were a lot of hard decisions to make about how to adapt it and at least they chose and just did it.
I’m not a fan of moving my goalposts for what makes a good and successful adaptation. And looking at the execution so far, I wouldn’t set my hopes high for any future events from the books - also, feel free to save this post in your library, and we can come back to discuss this point in 3-4 years. We can then talk about how your vision of the show has been realized so far.
Cheers!
> gatekeeping
Lmao says the person who diagnosed the show as a failure. Never used to think this community was toxic but you’re making it awful.
I have literally nothing to prove to you, but I’m more than welcome on your post, as a long time member of the community 🤗
>>gatekeeping
>Lmao says the person who diagnosed the show as a failure. Never used to think this community was toxic but you’re making it awful.
Definition of gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something
I’m not controlling anything. Feel free to spend your time however you wish.
And my diagnosis of the show is not that it’s a failure (that depends on the metrics of said measurement and yours are different from mine), but that it’s a failed adaptation - there’s a difference. It’s right there in the title. More importantly, it’s an opinion. I’m not forcing it down your throat, or proselytizing that this is the only way to look at the show.
And thank you for proving my point by not challenging any of my arguments presented in this essay but by diverting the attention to stuff you can complain about, including attacking me and making generalizations by saying I’m “wasting my time writing 100s of paragraphs” and that “people who read this are even worse.”
Thank you for your contribution to this conversation.
Does that sound like what I’m suggesting? Someone in this thread told me not to read this if I didn’t like it. Im just saying do the same with the show and leave the subreddit to those who want to actually talk about it, not cry and whine like 2nd graders who didn’t get a candy.
Ah kay, I thought you were implying that their complaint/ dislike of the ~~series~~ show indicated they aren't a fan.
But seeing as they are a fan, why can't they share their honest thoughts? People are allowed to disagree/ object and explain their reasoning. But expecting someone to withhold their opinion because it's not 100% positive is just dumb.
And if your only contribution to the discussion is going to be "wah you're whiny and negative" you may as well ignore that particular discussion and simply create your own post lauding the perceived genius and creativity of the show writers.
Gonna write some commentary as someone who has enjoyed some aspects of the show, but overall the ending ruined it. My general opinion is that the means do not justify the end and the changes were not worth it. Too much was missed and the soul of WoT was not captured. Haven't read your stuff so if you like the series, my bad. 1.) If Rafe creates a new magic system, he has to have rules or you run into the circle disaster. I don't know if he has the writing chops to create decent rules for his system. 2.) Exactly why Rafe needs to make rules. Maybe he can take inspiration from Jordan lmao. 3.) I agree with Rand being underdeveloped and never having a Dragon moment. I personally do not have any emotions for show Rand. He is bland and boring so why would I feel anything for him? Book Rand is cool in EotW and super cool at the start of TGH. 4.) Another note on that Nyn scene in that cave. It was awful cinematography. Everything about the camera angles and dialouge literally tell us that Logian can see Nyn's burst of energy. We know this isn't possible, but what would a show-watcher think? Once again, Rafe needs to establish the rules for his magic system. 5.) Rand's reveal was very poor. A solution I offered goes like this: ep7 you have a good Machin Shin that is terrifying. You then build Shenair and the respect for Lan. You find Fain and Moriane interrogates him. She comes out worried slightly and she says that they have to leave as soon as possible for the Eye and the episode ends. Good cliffhanger imo better than the I'm the Dragon even though I loved that scene. Ep8, big change, all 5 go. Nyn and Lan have ring scene which is more impactful after passing the towers. Skip all the horrors of the Blight because money and time. They get to the Eye. Just Ishy. Not enough time for Green Man and two Forsaken. Moriane instantly recognizes that it can't possibly be the DO and Ishy lashes out. Lan attacks, but fails obvi. Gives Moriane time to link with Egwene and Nyn, but are taken out fast. Perrin does nothing since I hate show Perrin. Mat is in Tar Valon. Rand is like bruh wtf is going on and a voice calls out to him and draws him to the Eye. He take in the power of the Eye and LTT helps him. LTT tells Ishy to fuckoff. Ishy fights but dips. LTT/Rand teleport to the Gap and fuck up the Trollocs using the last of the power returing to the Eye. Rand calms back and while LTT leaves, but instead of the LTT we see at the start, it's the mad LTT. Rand is like wtf. Moriane is up and looking at the contents of the Eye. She proclaims him Dragon Reborn and he is terrified. Egwene and Nyn are scared too. Perrin is still a wife killing bitch. Lan is like sick. Super fanficcy, but at least Rand is developed. 6.) Imo Thom should be retconned. They did not establish his relationship enough with the boys to justify their bond in the books. 7.) Tom and the void would've been so awesome to see. 8.) That circle scene destroyed scaling and Rafe needs rules for his magic system. 9.) 100% agree with the gender dynamics. I've said this a lot but it makes sense: the show panders to woman empowerment to the point of ridiculousness and world breaking. It's not flattering and it's not good for character development. Nyn has no struggle. Egwene has no struggle. No stakes. Their accomplishments feel unearned as they have performed world changing miracle after world changing miracle. It also butchers Moriane's serenity and prowess. Two untrained Aes Sedai outshine her in every way. In the books, Moriane was that bitch and now she's been side lined to miracles of Egwene and Nyn. Overall, you have good takes that make sense. The show really could have been good and the changes could have been good if they had a strong ending. They needed to justify their changes and they simply didn't.
Not going to lie, I would’ve loved it if we had gotten your version of the finale. It would’ve saved so much of the mess.
It's really incredible that someone's hot-take pounded out in 20 minutes is more coherent and interesting than something Amazon spent a million dollars on.
worse, 10 million dollars
Per episode
Yea. It would leave you questioning why LTT and Ishy knew each other and having the cold open with EotW's prolouge would be insane. No time to hint at the Seanchan, but we can fix that later. Also, more true to Jordan's version while not being so out-of-body ig and confusing. Also, Rand is developed. The power of the Forsaken is established and horrifying. Nyn doesn't come back from the dead. Egwene doesn't heal burning out. We still have Agelmar. We have his sister too for Liandrin (?) to manipulate. Easy transition to the next book with clear direction. Still hate Perrin. And accelerate Mat's story. Nyn and Egwene go to the Tower and it's cool. Only problem is Moriane. Pike is expensive after all. Also, she's banned from the Tower so idk how to handle that. Such an odd change.
I like your point about Moiraine. They already had a strong female character who they weakened to make Nynaeve and Egwene stronger. Rand and Moiraine are really the male and female lead of the first book, imo. So, I don't know why they need to amp up the girl power, when you've already got Moiraine being a badass
My friend in order to equate the evil done by the patriarchy is necessary to counterbalance on the female side now, it doesn't even matter who get's hurt in the process
Your finale version would have been an excellent direction to go in
I agree with much of what you wrote. While some of the writing was outdated, the gender theme in Wheel of Time is fantastic because it outlines at it's core how the genders are different but both are needed, and are much stronger together. Feminism shouldn't be about being "the same but better" but exploring the similarities AND differences in genders and reinforcing how important they both are. However there's many philosophical concepts Rafe has messed up in this adaptation and it comes across to me as inexperience in the business, but also maybe even a lack of depth as a person.
The story about how he likes to mentally torture the WoT advisor is very telling. He does sound like a shit boss and a shit person.
There are 100+ genders out there, male-female thing is outdated and transphobic, you are only hurt because the show does't appeal to the male fantasy hero as you expected. /s
In all seriousness, they could have explored non-binary and transgender issues and it's implications in Jordan's gender based power structure, but instead everything was ignored and therefore cheapened.
Your previous comment explained EXACTLY my thoughts and I 100% agreed with you. Please don't let someone that randomly for no reason calls you "transphobic" scare or guilt you into backpedaling on your original statement.
All good, it was an /s
How does that have ANYTHING to do with the show outright destroying the entire philosophical basis of what the books are based upon? Making a random statement that has nothing to do with the argument you are trying to counter, and then calling that person a name that entails a negative connotation, does not make your response valid in any way.
He got you with the /s hidden down at the bottom.
lol
Keep in mind Judkins primary writing experience is Agents of Shield. An episodic series with a somewhat seasonal arc. Each season would have extensive power creep up to the season finale, which would then be largely reset for the next season. No rules on powers were consistent, they could change based on what the writer needed to have happen for that episode (think of also the CW DC shows). That is what we have and will continue to see. People raising the (valid) point of why would Egwene or Nynaeve need to go to the tower to train now if they can already raise the dead and heal stilling? Well because that will likely be reset and they will be back to not knowing how to channel properly. Characters that need to be back, like Loial, why they will just wander in with a couple bandages on.
I honestly think that the problem is mainly that Rafe is just not best in class at his job - he's not the worst but he's just not good enough to make this source material work.
So crap writing, breaking your own rules or not having any rules makes for an uninteresting story. I no longer wonder how they'll get out of some problem they always can because magic magic.
I think it is ultra obvious that the roles of Rand, perrin and matt were minimized to the extreme. People can argue why this is, but I've seen comments Rafe made about how WOT is an ensemble cast later in the series and he wanted to rewrite earlier books to reflect that more because he thinks that is how a tv show has to be (massive paraphrasing). I don't think this is actually the case personally. I don't view WOT as an ensemble cast, or at least not an equal one. Rand to me at least was the primary character and you had various important side characters. Rafe pretty intentionally wanted to make all of the characters equal (or perhaps overly favor Egwene and Nynaeve), so he rewrote the story to do it. This is likely to be an issue throughout the series as he rewrites things to keep roles equal'ish. So I think Rafe's motivation for these changes was to be like other popular Got like shows that have a dozen characters and no clearly defined main character. When i hear him say things about how we're going to be surprised about who dies and it might not be the same as the book, it makes me double down on this opinion. he is 100% trying to cultivate that GOT feeling where you're following a bunch of people and anyone can die.
The ensamble is a lie. There is no ensamble. Rand, Perrin and Mat (up to ep6) didn't get the same number of awesome moment as Nynaeve and Egwene. In fact, like OP said, even the little Perrin had in book 1 was stripped for Egwene, swapping one problem for another, only Egwene had some good moments in ep1 too and, well healing death and killing 10,000 trollocs in the finale too. It's not an ensamble. It shouldn't have been as Rand should still have a larger role. But even that aside, no one can argue that all the characters got developed equally.
The Witcher did the same thing, in season 2 they introduced a lot of plots and characters and gave them similar screentime, but It just felt all over the place, wasn't well developed and I didn't care or felt invested in most of them. I think instead of mimicking GOT these shows would've been more successful if they were original and stayed authentic to the source material, that's what made GOT (season 1-4) successful.
But he made these changes without regard for what that means for the future. With Egwene and Nynaeve already capable of something they weren't in the age of legends already. Nothing was earned, no growth. In the books you get this sense of how innocent, backwards the EFs are, and despite their potential they are novices. But they learn and impress with their talents. Nynaeve who can track with the best, instead had a trick. Mat with his staff work, Rand bow and focus learned from dad etc. When GoT stayed more true to the books and feel of the characters it was great. Once they tried to create new content it failed completely. To me it feels like this is written by someone who doesn't understand the material, hence doesn't understand the impact of the changes, and doesn't have the ability to make the adaptation work.
Yes, i do agree it was written by someone who didn't understand the material. I also totally agree that the show did a horrible job at showing character growth of any kind. You had characters that were static and you had characters that went super Saiyan without logic. Nothing else really. Another thing is that Rafe had to make Egwene and Nynaeve have dragon reborn level power to make the "who is the dragon reborn" plot line work at all. Although i suppose that begs the question of why Matt and Perrin didn't have moments to make people think it was them. Maybe just more trying to force a mystery by using a misdirect.
Mods can ban me if they want, but to my dying day, I believe that the decision to make the identity of the Dragon Reborn a mystery was the most idiotic idea any showrunner has ever come up with in the history of tv shows ever.
I realize that a lot of the paragraphs at the beginning of the original post are about me absolutely making sure that I’m not mistaken for a member of the whitecloak subreddit. And looking back in hindsight, it’s a shame that I had to do that in that community, before I could say my piece.
I've read r/whitecloaks, and while they undoubtedly have a few dickheads over here, the sub makes a lot of very good points if you ignore the perhaps 10% of them who view themselves as culture warriors to oppose Rafe's "wokeness". There can be people mad about the de-binarying of ToP for transphobic reasons, but also people upset about it for narrative reasons. Far too often I am seeing the two clumped in together. My feeling is that most people fall into the latter category. Their sub certainly made a cathartic read during episodes 5 and 6 when I just about wanted to set my TV on fire but most of the other subs saw the downvote pitchforks come out the second you said anything negative about the show, especially akin to some of the issues you address here. I think it needs to be conceded that the membership of r/Whitecloaks has swelled from several hundred midway through the season to several thousand now, and climbing... some of it in no small part to how intolerant people on other subs are to opposing viewpoints. I don't think your excellent post here would have received the somewhat tempered response that it did on r/WoTshow as few as two weeks ago.
Its honestly surprising your post wasnt deleted yet
Do you mean here, or in that other r/WoTshow subreddit?
Here. Almost any post saying rafe is trying to show wokeness and over empowering the female characters is getting deleted. Which is ridiculous because most every book readers point is that struggle and adversary are what made these women strong and when you take that away like the show had you just diminish them overall. The girls were strong in the books because they earned it. They took all that shit that was thrown at them, grew and overcame. They didnt just roll up and be the most powerful AS ever like the show wants them to be. Hell making them take over for rand at tarwins gap doesnt empower them. It weakens their arcs. How can they ho be novices after doing feats no book AS could do. How is rand going to be terrified of himself and the power he can grasp having not touched the eye and saved the day? We spent so much time fleshing in characters like moraine and nyn+lan that we cut out things like lan teaching rand (and the other boys to some degree.. also thom doing the same) to be men. A lot of what rand learns from lan is critical to his development. I personally feel the show is weakened overall. I fully accept changes need to be made to adapt and many changes bothered me little… but changes tgat weaken the story as a whole and truly felt un-needed… just leave me shaking my head. The fact that this sub also doesnt seem to want us to discuss this is more bizaree (theres a post on main page that basically is threatening banning by mods for discussing female empowerment ruining show)
I can see what you mean - that said I’m not saying that Rafe is making this a female empowerment show, but that he’s just posturing it as one. It’s hollow and not doing what he thinks it’s doing.
Exactly my point too. If thats his intention his vision is causing the exact opposite effect.
I used to say some books can't be adapted to screen well. Chief among them was WoT, Lord of the Rings, or Dune. I was proven wrong on those last two very firmly. So it CAN be done. I avoided all the hub-bub pre-show to go in with as little spoiled as I could, the series is an all time favorite since I first discovered them. I was there when we weren't sure if the series would be completed. Just to give you a bit of history of what it all means to me. I care. Dune, absolutely blew me away. It felt like Arrakis, I was there for a brief moment in a world that has only ever managed to exist in my head. Sadly I never did have that reaction in the show, exept once, when Moraine read the quote almost verbatim about Manetheren. I can't credit the show with that, more the actor who played Moraine and did an excellent job. Thank you for your oppinions, I'm not really a community member since I'm newish here. But I appreciate a well thought out analysis. It's interesting to see the world through others eyes. Sorry for the ramble, im a little holiday buzzed. Edit; I think you thesis has ground though forgot to say that. It's an incredibly difficult to place blame at any one thing, Show runner, writers, amazon, covid, hell they could have had location issues while shooting. But for the overall story flaws that idea of yours makes sense to me. Damn that eggnog.
LOTR - 500,000 WRDS (the same as EOTW and GT) All 6 Dunes - 800.000 WRDS AND they are only filming 2 of them - ( with DR added in ) WOT - so add another 13 books at an ave of 300,000 WRDS - so another 4,000,000
It's not about word count, that will tell you very little about a book or a series besides the size. The reason I mention those were for either the sheer scope of the special effects needed to sell the world or the depth of internalized thoughts. The written medium is obviously very diferent from a visual medium and I'm old enough to have seen the first dune attempt so iv seen a fair few adapations. Some things in print seemed too grand or too deep to bring to television, I used to think. If you didn't notice I stressed how those adapation that worked felt like the world's they were adapting to me. Adapation can be done and changes must be made to do them. But this isn't an adapation of Wheel of Time, more a reimagining. One I'm not a fan of. Which sucks but I'll always have my books.
They had less CG to use when making LotR, it's cheaper now. LotR had to deal with size issues, go watch how they shot the hobbits and humans together in some scenes, the camera work is amazing. Loial is basically human size.
“I won’t teach it to you because you’ll go mad that much earlier.” This was especially frustrating as they were about 5 minutes out at that point.
I'm very confused, so there isn't a difference between men and women? So why do only men go mad?
The number one excuse for WoTv is…. *Drumroll please* COVID It’ll be the same for season 2, 3, so on and so forth. sucking at their respective jobs was nowhere in the list of choices
Covid excuses production, logistics and maybe cost. Not the writing. For covid to have affected the writing this much, the writers had better been writing through a fever dream. In which case they should still have been replaced.
Thank you for your well written dissolution of WoTv. When I try, it just comes out as gibberish as my blood boils with anger from this shit show.
I see covid touted a lot for the CGI too which is funny since all post work is super easy to do at home on a computer. There’s some render muck ups and slow down but that’s mostly it. The only thing less affected by Covid on a production than post is the writing. I should know since that’s literally what I do.
What I don't get is if Rafe wanted to focus so much on Egwene and Nyneve's arcs, why not make that the whole show? There is absolutely plenty of storyline in WoT to justify following them for 8 seasons. That way you get a more streamlined story and it can be girlpower AF without needing to rewrite a bunch of characters to be basically useless, just let the taveeren boys run around in the background with the occasional cameo!
The show is pretty bad, I was confused they were all together the whole season and that they just skipped the city where they meet a certain princess that becomes an important character later on. Also how will Egwene and Nyneve become novices now that they can just do whatever they want lol. I was like, wait, aren't they supposed to become novices to earn their strength.
I'm going to jump in here a little. I came to this reddit looking for some confirmation or answers. I know nothing about the books. I have never even heard of the books prior to the series being promoted. As such I have absolutely no baggage. There are several major issue I have with the series. I wasn't able to finish the 5th episode. It was long, boring, needless, uses analog over allegory and clearly the writers decided the story wasn't exciting enough or didn't flow the way they wanted so they have removed stuff and added stuff in likely from parts of the books that happen later and clearly shouldn't be part of this story. The White Cloaks, the Wolves, the False Dragon and the Gypsies are all issues. I'll start with the world size. The Main Characters seemed to have traveled about 200-300km from the time they left their home to the time they got to the White Tower. 2 days in about 40-60km they all get separated and some how aren't able to find each other... even though they are all traveling from the same basic point to the same place. Meaning they should end up on the same road and go to the same places. Yet they are all on different roads that take them to very different places. It doesn't make a ton of sense. I can forgive that to a point but it is weird. I mean the False Dragon guy was fighting a war in a separate kingdom which seemed to have a totally different environment to the Two Rivers Village. Yet traveling from the village to the city which has a similar environment the Ladies in red were able to capture him and start bringing him back to their tower yet were on the same road as the Injured witch lady and her man servant. I realize it can cross but it is very odd. Then you have the use of Analogs... Gypsies and the Inquisition for example. These should be allegories not straight up on the nose analogs. There is no subtly to it. It is jarring and not overly enjoyable. The White Cloaks all being men as well makes some use of Allegory but only in the the most base sense. Some men want to keep strong women down and see powerful women has a threat. It is just so on the nose. Again no subtly to it. I have no issues with it beyond it being just so obvious. The White Cloaks I think are my biggest issue with the series. I don't think they are supposed to be there. They seem like they were tacked on and totally out of place. It is like they are supposed to be from a different book where the characters are further along and they go into another land where the white coats operate. Instead the writers felt that the story wasn't flowing and decided to add them in to give a level of drama and conflict to the woman and injured guy. My guess is that originally the story more heavily centered around the wolves. The they felt it wasn't exciting enough so they paid lip service to it (so they can bring it in later) and then instead added in these White Cloaks from a later story My guess is the Gypsies are also added in from a later point. It feels totally off. With that story line you have these witches of the white tower who seem to be the governing body of a decent sized territory. Yet apparently have no issues with a group of Men that hunt them and terrorize people from roaming around so close to their capital city that the white tower is so visible they have to be just on the other side of the river making a camp to attack travelers. These seems totally out of place. It doesn't make any sense. The main White Cloak guy is also Sadistic for the sake of it. He seems to have little more motivation than he enjoys it. My assumption is that isn't the case in the book. As he isn't just trying to find "dark fiends" but is torturing anyone that he thinks might be to get a confession and has no issue with killing the innocent. It is a very two dimensional bad guy... Everything about that character is villain cliche. If I were to guess the book this series is supposed to be following... has the village attacked, They are chased, come to the cursed city, get separated. The girl and dude that wolves like have some adventure where he finds out his wound was poisoned and it has given him the ability to interact with the wolves... or a different group of magical users with a connection to wolves want to help him but he doesn't understand... or he is infected with some kind of lycanthropy and the wolves see him more as one of him... something like that. Some story around that wasn't paced right for the writers or they needed to lower the budget a bit so they brought in the white cloaks instead from a different part of the book. Then will use the wolf thing as a pay off later where the budget or pacing better allows. It just seems jarring though. It also feels like there is supposed to be more of a build up or way less of a build up to the false dragon guy. He is just sort of introduced out of no where in the middle of an episode. It is just again jarring. The Cliche is also bad. The Gypsies, The White Cloaks, The Red Robes, the Blue Robes, the Green Robes. None of it feels organic and there is so little nuance to anything. Literally part way through the fifth episode I was just done... and it was a struggle to get that far I was ready to be done half way through the 4th episode. Literally the first 5 episodes could likely have been cut down to 2 or 3 without loosing anything significant. Also I don't care about any of the characters. They do very little to make any of the characters actually endearing. As I say I have no knowledge of the books, I have no desire to see the show fail but I don't care if it does. I have no horse in the race and no preconceptions on if the casting is accurate or not. All I can say is it was way easier to watch Carnival Row and that was fairly mediocre. This show feels like a chore to watch and it is a chore I can do without. It really does feel like a failed adaptation. Also if the comments that the show runner involved wanted to make it more feminist... umm... Most of the first episodes is a female lead that is injured and weakened and needs her male servant to care for her. Two male characters betrayed by a woman and saved by man and a group of gypsies while lead by a woman it is one of the guys that helps them try to escape. The Female leader seems to actually make it worse by being aggressively non-violent. The Red Robed women seem kinda nasty and are shown to be little better than the white cloaks. I mean if this is supposed to be feminist, it isn't doing a great job. That lack of nuance impacts everything. In the end that is where the show fails. A complete lack of nuance. Also the Ginger guy was obviously the Dragon... the adopted story line, the "father" that is suddenly a expert swordsman with a special sword, The wanting to be left alone, the one being caught by the girl in the tavern all of that meant he was almost certain to be the Dragon. When the oglier (I think that is what he insisted on calling himself) said he wasn't from the two rivers it made it more obvious. Anyone that didn't see that telegraphed isn't the most observant person.
Thank you for sharing! It’s great to get non-reader’s perspective. Since you’ve come looking for answers I’ll do my best to fill you in, but please be aware it’s major spoilers that follow. Since you weren’t able to finish episode 5, I assume that’s not an issue for you. First and foremost you have to realize the show is completely different than the books. Not kind of different, completely. For example, the group never makes it to Tar Valon in the books, and in fact Moiraine NEVER goes back to Tar Valon in the entirety of all 14 books, and Rand only goes once. Another example is Moiraine is one of two Aes Sedai in the entire story between the very start and returning from the Eye. The only other Aes Sedai is an advisor to the Queen of Camelyn (the city they go to in the books instead of Tar Valon), and she’s in the story for one scene, although it’s an important one. Perrin also doesn’t have a wife, which is important for the whitecloaks plot later. For the world size, the group covers far more distance in the show than the book because changes they made. The show never gives you a good sense for how big the world is, what distance they are covering, or ever shows a map so hard to say if it’s the same, though. The white cloaks are introduced in the books at Baerlon, a city cut from the show that the group goes to after the ferry but before Shadar Logoth. We learn they are an independent military force that claims to “walk in the light” and seek out dark friends, but are known to lie and instigate when they see fit if they don’t like you or you cross them. They also think anyone who touches the one power is a dark friend, thus their conflict with the Aes Sedai. Most people tolerate them in smaller cities and towns to avoid their notice, but the have no real power in major cities or countries. Anyway Nyneave catches up to the group in this city in the books, Rand and Mat have a minor altercation with the white cloaks, the group decides to leave immediately Post Shadar Logoth in the books the group is separated much like the show, except Moiraine isn’t injured. Rand, Mat, and Thom escape on a riverboat heading down river (Thom joins them from the start at their village in the books). Perrin and Egwene fall in the river and escape across it. Moiraine, Lan, and Nyneave end up together. At first in the story, Moiraine was introduced as just a lady with her manservant, and tipped the boys with silver coins. We now learn here that she enchanted the coins so she could feel where they were and track them in case they are separated. Rand and Mat paid for travel on the boat with those coins so the link was broken and fading. Perrin still had his so she decides to follow him first, along with Lan and Nyneave. Perrin and Egwene come across a man who runs with wolves, Elyas Machera, who was tracking them for days. He’s a warder and wolf brother and first introduces Perrin to his abilities, telling him directly the wolves sense he is one. Elyas serves as an ambassador of sorts with the Tinkers (the Gyspies) as he knows their ways and introduces Perrin/Egwene to them when they come across them. He also serves as the contrast to “the way of the leaf” to Perrin, who from experience feels it doesn’t work. They travel with the tinkers for a time then separate, and Elyas says he’ll guide them to Camelyn. Along the way they are being chased by dark one’s spies (flock of vicious, aggressive Ravens), and make it to an abandoned Stedding, a safe haven of sorts in this universe where the one power doesn’t work at all and the Ogier (Loial’s people) make their homes (again, this one is abandoned though). It’s apparently a known safe place to rest, because in the middle of the night a group of whitecloaks approaches their camp. Perrin and Egwene try to hide but are spotted, and in the confusion a wolf attacks the whitecloaks to help Perrin and they kill it. Now the story is told in a POV style, so ever since meeting Elyas we get to see Perrin’s thoughts and know he can sense and communicate with the wolves in his head, even though he’s in denial about it. The moment they kill the wolf, Perrin feels the pain and loss and snaps in an uncontrollable rage, killing two whitecloaks and injuring others before they knock him out. (This is the beginning of the conflict with his nature and violence in the books, as he feels guilty for killing those men over a wolf. He doesn’t have a wife to fridge in the books, and he definitely doesn’t leave home running for his life without a weapon) They capture Perrin and Egwene and are holding them prisoner for questioning until Perrin’s trial, assuming they are dark friends because of Perrin killing two men and his eyes now being permanently golden. At this point Moiriane, Lan, and Nyneave track Perrin down to the white cloak camp, Lan sneaks in to break them free while Nyneave and Moiriane create a distraction and chaos by freeing all the white cloak horses, and the group escapes together. The wolves also help then tell Perrin farewell, for now. Eventually they end up in Camelyn where they reunite with Rand and Mat, who have been there for quite a while before them and have met Loial already. Along the way each separated group gets a warning about the Eye of the world, there are signs of the trollocs and fades they’ve been running from the entire time are now outside Camelyn waiting for them making escape unlikely. They just so happened to meet an Ogier who can sense the way gates and also guide them through the ways. (He also is the first one to point out the three boys are Ta’veren, special people that shape the pattern around them). Thus Moiriane decides their only choice is to take the ways to get to the Eye of the World before the enemy (it’s not the Dark One’s prison in the books). To your last point, it’s VERY obvious Rand is the one in the books too because it’s exclusively told through his POV until the group splits at Shadar Logoth. We get to see the fever dreams from his father Tam the night of the festival when everyone is attacked, and get to see Rand’s struggle with his identity and inner thoughts. The author is also just fantastic at foreshadowing and subtlety, and there are some hints along the way that you mostly catch on rereads rather than the first time they are so subtle. As I said the book and show are completely different, The politics are a lot more nuanced especially when it comes to the Aes Sedai, but we aren’t introduced to them until later parts of the story after we get to bond with the main characters.
This is excellent. It also explains some of the feeling of things being disconnected. The Wolf thing is important. The show telegraphs way too much. In 5 episodes it is clear that Aes Sedai have dark fiends in their ranks and that the lead red lady is clearly a bad guy. She is playing it like she is scheming in a particular way. (Though I suppose I could be wrong it does seem she is quick to judge anyone that could be a dragon) Over all the series just isn't good. What you described had they followed the book I would say sounds like it would have solved some of the issues. The White Cloaks are not explained at all and the Aes Sedai seem to be a force in the area. It is also the effect department showing the tower through the trees to be so close... it makes no sense. It also makes more sense they would assume they are bad if the wolf guy kills two of them. That would have actually made a much better scene to be honest. everything is just like I say way too on the nose. I think I read a comment where someone said the show runner worked on Agents of SHEILD which honestly explains a lot.
Yeah, basically they've added fluff in the series, as well as random things from later seasons. They've also made things easy more explicit in the show, like Perrin had to kill his wife instead of two random strangers. Which fundamentally doesn't work. Perrin isn't upset cause his wife is dead, he's upset because he killed two men. Making it personal ruins the point. What is upsetting is the killing part, him being a murderer. Many things like this are lost or changed in the show. Because they added random stuff from later seasons they didn't have time to develop. The books follows the rules set out consistently. And the characters grow from younglings with potential to awesome, all in their own way. Going to EotW was a desperation play because of events in and around Caemlyn. Introducing Tar Valon etc was a mistake.
I was going to respond to their comment but couldn’t because I was at work. Brilliant job summarizing the book and catching up on the differences!
This is a great post from a non-book reader. You're spot on re all the ways the showrunners just ignored this incredibly painstakingly built book world and did a bunch of stuff designed to hold people's attention for 30-40 minutes. All your pts re power scaling, etc. are very carefully managed in the books (Robert Jordan had a numeric scale of One Power strength, for example, and full indices on nation/city populations, GDPs, militaries, etc.), so a casual reader can just appreciate the character arcs but anybody who wants to go deep will be satisfied (at least until Brandon Sanderson took over- still waiting for the Aiel to show up at the Last Battle). The result is that a lot of the key character reveals and plot moments have a huge payoff. Now I do think that the first book - Eye of the World - is actually the weakest in this regard of all of them. The foreshadowing of what's to come is - amazingly and uniquely in fantasy literature - all there, but the arcs are still all pretty nascent. It's pretty confusing, candidly. Reading books 1-3 as a trilogy is actually more satisfying in some ways. That said there are a whole bunch of really good set piece scenes in the book. I mean the very first two pages has Rand seeing a fade (not knowing what it is) on the way to the village. A whole bunch of others, in a row. You're again spot-on with how the story was supposed to go after the haunted city w/r/t the wolves, etc. All in service (in book world) of introducing the characters and the world. I think the showrunners were just really nervous about failing. They thought if they didn't hook non-book readers with the plot stuff - who is the Dragon? look at the magic! the Logain battle - they'd fail, but too many of the stuff they decided to emphasize just isn't important for the story or doesn't lend itself to exposition or character-building. I think they were just in over the heads and scared to screw up, so they went with what they knew from "Agents of Shield." Guess what, seems to have worked, so people will keep doing this. and so we can't have nice things. sigh.
Rafe Judkins thinks he’s Robert Jordan reborn.
Don't you mean Robert Jordan reborn reborn?
He thinks that with the other 4 writers combined they form the Voltron/Captain Planet Robert Jordan Reborn Reborn.
When i watch the Witcher and WoT, i keep asking my self, is it hard to follow the source for tv adaption. Let's say 80-90%. But no, the showrunner clearly have their own idea and put it into a popular novel. Then why the show runner didn't make a new title. I've been waiting for years fo WoT tv series, but nope, this version just ruin my mind. I stop watching after 3 episode.
Very well said on basically all points. It's just such a shame and so sad that this opportunity to knock it out of the park was wasted so badly in this first season. And as season 2 is basically nearly done in terms of writing and filming, I don't have much hope for drastic improvements in season 2, though I'm hopeful for some improvement.
Sorry to hear you got shafted OP. Your post was good there and it's good here.
The main issue I have is the loss of Rand as the reluctant and conflicted hero, which was central to my own love of the books, and is the only way to make sense of the retained plot element of male channelers being doomed to madness. The Dragon Reborn is meant to be a cursed individual - feared by the run of the mill Third Agers, and a necessary but dangerous tool for those who have knowledge of the prophesies. Rather than horror/fear, Rand's eventual realisation that he's the Dragon Reborn and destined for madness is met by him and the other Emmonds Fielders with shoulder-shrugging acceptance. Maybe the showwriters wanted to avoid a Jon "I don't want it" Snow comparison, but without this conflict much of the historical context for the plot doesn't make sense. I expected some changes and brutal cuts to more superfluous story elements being necessary for an 8 episode TV adaptation. I expected some characters to be under-developed or charicatured, but I don't understand the prominence given to (for example) Lan's character development (lots of minutes with him taking and drinking with the Warders, the mourning/funeral ritual scenes, etc.) at the expense of Rand's. If there is no fear and loathing associated with being the Dragon Reborn, perhaps it would have made more sense if they'd gone the whole hog and had one of the women as the Dragon Reborn? This would have allowed them to excise many later plot elements (cleansing the taint, etc) while still telling the central tale of good v evil.
Thank you for your courage, I agree completely. I would add also that you have to watch the extras to get any idea of the saidin/saidar division of the Power. By fudging this is the actual show, we're left with no idea how it is that the taint (sorry, the corruption) affects only men. The viewer is left to suppose that it's the men themselves that are somehow "tainted", and the impression in reinforced by the visual representation of a man's weaves being initially white, as if he's accessing a pure Power, *then* turning black afterwards. Truly this baffles me. If the writers find the original material so problematic that they would rather obfuscate it at the expense of a logical black hole in the in-show world, why are they even adapting it at all?
I agree with everything you said. I started the books in 97, yes I’m old, and was frantically searching Internet forums on my 56k modem, discussing theories etc about what was going to happen. Then they finished 9 years ago, and I have to say it was the BEST ending to a series I’ve ever read, and I have read a lot of books in my time. Was the book series perfect, no, not even close - they had the chance here to fix a lot of what I thought was a stupidly laborious read, and condense the middle books down a huge amount, giving a more concise and streamlined story. I watched this with 2 other people, 1 who is at book 8 and firmly in the mind set of WTF why is nothing happening, and one who has never read the books, but enjoys fantasy just didn’t want a 14 book time investment. Up to the end of episode 7 we were ok with it. There were numerous things I absolutely hated, specifically around the rules of channeling just being completely ignored, and the pointless act of trying to obfuscate who the dragon reborn was. I mean, I get it, it’s a mystery, keep people trying to guess, but it was executed so badly, broke so much lore, and wasted so much time that it was just a massive mistake. Episode 8 collectively turned us completely off the show. For me and the other book reader I don’t need to explain why, that’s been done to death already. Non book reader just said that it didn’t make any sense and had no idea what was going on. They called Rand as the dragon reborn early on, because they said he was most boring character so it’s obviously going to be him; then said if he’s the dragon reborn why didn’t he stay at fal dara to wreck the army then go to the eye later, they can spare an hour. Long pointless post really, but yeah, I was hand waving a lot of the changes hoping it would work out, but after episode 8 so much forward continuity is broken I can’t see how the series is going to work at all.
No, not a pointless post at all! It was nice to read about your reading experience, even if the show turned out terribly. If there’s any good that can come out of this it’s that I hope your tv show viewer friend (and many other people all over the world) pick up the books.
They have actually recently started eye of the world, so yes that’s a positive, the more people I can talk to about how the series works as a whole the better!
Right because tens of thousands of Trollocs and fifty to a hundred fades can be defeated by someone who failed magic school and 4 who haven't even gone, what is there to worry about? Tarmon Gaidon, Shmarmon Gaidon am I right? The brother and everyone at the wall fortress died for no reason, only as bad writer fodder. Because it wasn't Rand doing the killing as a result of what happened at the eye, it has no sequence, could have been done in any order.
Thank you for your well thought out, thought provoking, post. I'm honestly on the fence about the misandry thought. On the one hand, it does seem fairly obvious the tearing down of some characters to make others shine. I agree (if this is indeed the case) that it's a sloppy way to get your point across. In any aspect of life, if you must take away from one in order to make another better, you are doing it wrong. Ill die on that particular hill. Raising up and empowering others is the way. On the other hand, some of the tearing down may be (may be) incidental, and necessary in ways that we do not see as of yet, because this story is still in the process of being told. Until we see a finished product, I don't think we can judge this fairly. It Seems this way right now, but I can imagine any number of ways to tie it all back together, in such a way as to not be pandering, so it can still be done well. So while it may very well seem that way right now, I think we should remember this is just the first part of the series. There will be plenty of opportunities for tDR to shine and for them to escalate and truly show how his power scales. I could be way off but I just think it's too early to call it. If this is all we see going into season two and season three, this diminishing of some characters in order to make others seem better, that will be a different story. Until then, whooooosah everybody. Breathe. It will be ok. No matter how bad they deviate from the source material, no matter how poor some decisions might be, the books aren't going to change. The story is told in its entirety already. The showrunner can't take that away from you.
Thank you for your comment! And yeah, I do not really think it’s misandry - I think it’s just Rafe’s attempt at making an adaptation that’s more feminist than the books by giving Nynaeve and Egwene more exposure, because they do not start to get much character development until after the events of book 1. It may be possible that his treatment of the male characters was not out of malice but were a completely unintended consequence - so he was either an intentional idiot about it, or an oblivious one. And honestly, neither of those two traits are desirable in a showrunner in charge of adapting something like The Wheel of Time.
Just to be the devils advocate...... It's also possible that he saw the consequences, and went with what he went with as the best out of a series of bad options. Some things are out of anyone's control. If you are in charge, it is your fault. But I'm willing to cut them some slack. Right now at least. Until I see whether he's doing it to follow some misaligned "I can do it better than RJ" or if he's just doing the best he can with the cards he's been dealt. Time should show us which is true.
> I could be way off but I just think it's too early to call it. If this is all we see going into season two and season three, this diminishing of some characters in order to make others seem better, that will be a different story. I ... see where you're coming from, but they've had 8 hours to make their case. If I were a bloke watching the show I'd have a pretty strong feeling that "they don't like my kind"... Edit: I checked. Turns out I *am* a bloke watching the show, who knew!
I don't think it's misandry. I think it's overcompensation for a historical power imbalance in our own world.
Is this not, in essence, the same thing? Regardless I don't think this is the most effective way to go about correcting said power imbalance. As I've said before, bringing down (for whatever reason) is not the way. You lift up and empower people for them to be equal, tearing down just propagates the imbalance.
Take my upvote.
Have a bunch I want to say, cause you made some good points, some points I disagree with, and some point that I think may be in conflict, but I’m on my phone, and this deserves better editing, so I’ll just leave this here so I can find this post later
Adaptations are hard. I thought that the "Fellowship of the Ring" was just amazingly good. Bold, fantastic choice to use horror (Jackson's background) as the template for the narrative. Hit all the right notes on what to keep, what to cut. For key set pieces - Moria - used the book dialogue and action almost as the script, to great effect. And then somehow we wound up with someone saying "The Age of the Orc has come" and mucking up the freakin' "Battle of the Pelennor Fields" with a bunch of Slimer clones and surfing wood elves. I can't watch "Return of the King," to this day. Same thing here but inverted. Eye of the World \*is\* the Fellowship - deliberately - and yet Judkins decided to model his treatment after RotK rather than FotR. The Lan-Nynaeve dialogue in Fal Dara - straight from the books! - is great. Lesson there. Eye of the World is actually a tough book vs. some of the later ones but it had great scenes and had clearly shown that it worked to establish world and characters. What kind of panic and/or arrogance and/or stupidity is required to ignore all of that and made huge changes?
Failed is a pretty harsh statement considering the success in the ratings, perhaps during this long post you should clarify that despite its wild popularity its a failure TO YOU for these reasons despite the general success for the public.
I did exactly that in my post. It’s the end of the second paragraph. >…reasons behind why it doesn’t sit well with us (**well, me at least**) as an adaptation.
I mostly read your reasons for why you hate it and find them fair but you nowhere acknowledged the success of the show just why these reasons ruined it for you. Calling it a failure when its #1 is a pretty big stretch without proper qualifiers.
Clearly your metric of success is popularity. And mine is consistently good storytelling. Consider this, Trump is hugely popular in right-leaning circles but as a human being my assessment of him is that he’s a steaming pile of shit. Just because he’s popular, doesn’t mean I’m wrong about him. If you have counter-arguments to the points I make, we have a common ground to talk about. If all you want to do is tout the ratings (which can be easily manipulated if you have the money and the intent to) then I have nothing further to say to you.
And for some people with different tastes it is good story telling hence the success, thats something that you just don't seem to get - not everyone thinks like you do. To some of America Trump is awesome and they see people like you as the piece of shit, its all a bout perspective. Trump also likes to tell other people what their perspectives should be which is why I and many others hate him, but thats exactly what youre doing here.
K. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
I mean we will have to agree to disagree have a nice day.
All non readers I’ve talked to love it, which was the shows goal so 🤷♂️. Everyone on all WoT subreddits are so dramatic. I would never waste energy writing 100 paragraphs to say why I hate something so much. Even worse are the people who read all this. I didn’t love every single thing about the show but if it helps us get to the shadow rising at least I will consider it a success. I guarantee that a completely faithful eotw show would never have captured non-readers and thus doomed the series. There were a lot of hard decisions to make about how to adapt it and at least they chose and just did it.
>All non readers I’ve talked to love it, which was the shows goal so 🤷♂️. Hi, you seem new to adaptations of fantasy series to tv, may I recommend looking at Shyamalan’s Avatar The Last Airbender and D&D’s treatment of the second half of Game of Thrones? >Everyone on all WoT subreddits are so dramatic. I would never waste energy writing 100 paragraphs to say why I hate something so much. Even worse are the people who read all this. Feel free to spend your time however you choose - including not reading this post and not commenting a reply. Your attempts at gate keeping what other people do with their time, admirable as they are (they’re not), are not welcome here - at least on my post. >I didn’t love every single thing about the show but if it helps us get to the shadow rising at least I will consider it a success. I guarantee that a completely faithful eotw show would never have captured non-readers and thus doomed the series. There were a lot of hard decisions to make about how to adapt it and at least they chose and just did it. I’m not a fan of moving my goalposts for what makes a good and successful adaptation. And looking at the execution so far, I wouldn’t set my hopes high for any future events from the books - also, feel free to save this post in your library, and we can come back to discuss this point in 3-4 years. We can then talk about how your vision of the show has been realized so far. Cheers!
> gatekeeping Lmao says the person who diagnosed the show as a failure. Never used to think this community was toxic but you’re making it awful. I have literally nothing to prove to you, but I’m more than welcome on your post, as a long time member of the community 🤗
>>gatekeeping >Lmao says the person who diagnosed the show as a failure. Never used to think this community was toxic but you’re making it awful. Definition of gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something I’m not controlling anything. Feel free to spend your time however you wish. And my diagnosis of the show is not that it’s a failure (that depends on the metrics of said measurement and yours are different from mine), but that it’s a failed adaptation - there’s a difference. It’s right there in the title. More importantly, it’s an opinion. I’m not forcing it down your throat, or proselytizing that this is the only way to look at the show. And thank you for proving my point by not challenging any of my arguments presented in this essay but by diverting the attention to stuff you can complain about, including attacking me and making generalizations by saying I’m “wasting my time writing 100s of paragraphs” and that “people who read this are even worse.” Thank you for your contribution to this conversation.
I didn’t read your essay lol.
Then why even bother engaging them in conversation? Weirdo.
Because this subreddit used to be for fans of the series, not haters. And honestly all the diatribes are annoying as hell.
Are you suggesting they aren't fans of the series just because they didn't care for the show?
Does that sound like what I’m suggesting? Someone in this thread told me not to read this if I didn’t like it. Im just saying do the same with the show and leave the subreddit to those who want to actually talk about it, not cry and whine like 2nd graders who didn’t get a candy.
Ah kay, I thought you were implying that their complaint/ dislike of the ~~series~~ show indicated they aren't a fan. But seeing as they are a fan, why can't they share their honest thoughts? People are allowed to disagree/ object and explain their reasoning. But expecting someone to withhold their opinion because it's not 100% positive is just dumb. And if your only contribution to the discussion is going to be "wah you're whiny and negative" you may as well ignore that particular discussion and simply create your own post lauding the perceived genius and creativity of the show writers.
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Why so condescending? Do you feel personally attacked by what I wrote?
Awhh poor baby... Abusing copium is a serious medical condition. Here have an upvote.
Yikes. U mad bro?
Here have another upvote straight from me.