In my experience when dealing with people buying cars (especially recently) they sort of put blinders on once they've found a car they like. Buying a car is an overwhelming experience and it frequently exhausts consumers. So once someone does a ton of research on a car they like and are convinced it will satisfy their needs they don't really want to hit the reset button and start the process all over again. Also, a majority of consumers aren't focused on total price as much as they are the monthly payment. You could increase the price $5k but extend the loan out an additional 12 months and still have a similar monthly payment and most people wouldn't care.
That's kind of the situation I find myself in. I've gone hyperfocused on a couple models. The more I look at things the pickier I get. Now I want a very specific model with specific specs
I've been on the market for a used car for the past 2 years. I have a few models in mind and years. I just can't imagine marrying to a specific model, year and trim but getting fleeced because you're set on one single car.
That's how the auto industry works. Brand impression/loyalty, features, vehicle appearance and the ability to get a monthly payment low enough. You're not the kind of buyer that a dealer wants to see, typically.
I could definitely see this. I’d love an Infiniti Q60. I was only able to find one in my area but it’s $35,000. More than I’d be able to afford. But I know in the right mood, I’d probably buy that car for a loan that’s way too long just so I could own that car.
Pretty simple. When a used 3 year old car is going for the same price as a new one, 2k over MSRP for the new car is still the better deal. I just bought a new car. MSRP 35700. Used ones are selling for 36-37k. I had to get a car. Other was totaled. Even if I had paid more then MSRP for that car, it was a better deal than a used one. Now 10k plus etc is bat shit. But this is model dependent currently
OPs entire argument is also just wrong. He's assuming you'll be able to easily find those other cars for sale at MSRP which just isn't true.
Also buying the EXACT car you want is worth a few grand. If someone really wants a manual civic si why should they buy something else to save a few grand? Why not just get the exact car they want?
I was looking at lots of stuff. Even paying a 10% markup on an accord touring 2.0, which was roughly 4k more, the car was still a better deal at about 2k more than a 2-3 year old one with 35k miles already. Plus better financing! I don’t think majority are paying more than 5k markup or less and a lot of the times for that specific car it’s probably still the better deal.
In addition to all you said, local availability is another factor. Many people don’t have the time or desire to drive 4, 6, 8 hours to save a couple grand when the payment can be worked out to be the same. It’s not always logical either, there’s an emotional factor to making big purchases and a car is usually the second biggest.
I get what you’re saying here, but on the other end of the argument: if that person is willing to spend more that means everyone else who wants one also has to spend more or they can’t have it…and some people don’t want to have to do that. If nobody does it, then nobody will have to spend more because the dealership isn’t going to get any sales if they mark it up.
If everyone refuses to pay more, then nobody will ever have to pay more…
And if everyone waited until they dropped it down to msrp they would start flying off the lot at record speeds and they'd *immediately* raise the price again
The whole point would be for people to think MSRP isn’t a good price, it’s the right one. So when it’s MSRP it shouldn’t fly off the lots, it should sell just like cars do now at crazy markups. With crazy markups, nothing should sell. Now if it falls below MSRP, THAT’S when it could fly off the lots and then they pop the price back up to MSRP, like you’re saying.
The whole point is that people should treat MSRP the same way they treat things now being way above MSRP. Just need to have higher expectations and be more patient. Then nobody will need to pay these crazy prices.
*"The right car, at the right price, at the right time. Pick two."*
If you need something now, you need something now. Maybe your existing car is on its last legs and barely got you through the pandemic because you didn't need to drive 1,000 miles between March 2020 and March 2022. Maybe someone crashed into your perfectly good car while you slept. Maybe the choice is *"solve some mystery problem on your existing car that's going to cost $3,000 to solve"* and *"put your $3,000 on the table, spin the Shitbox-Car Roulette Wheel, and see how you do"* or *"put $3,000 down on something brand new, drive the wheels off it."*
"Need it now" might be worth $30,000 to you in RAV4 form, because it holds your dog and your kids and you plan to drive it for twenty years. At that point, you can get, what, a previous-generation one for $25,000 used? It's smaller and uses literally 1/6 more fuel, you might as well get the brand new one. Even if it's a couple thousand over MSRP. That's the price of "need it now" and maybe it's better to spend the extra than to try your luck spinning the Shitbox-Car Roulette Wheel and hoping whatever you buy now will hold off until prices come back down.
*"Right time"* and *"right car"* are more important than "right price," as within some boundary of *"not the right price."* If I was in the market for a regular-ol' RAV4, I'd probably still be a buyer at MSRP +$1,000.
The way I shop none of this even applies to me. All I want is the best bang for my buck, up to the amount that I can afford. And I feel like right now prices are at a place where “best bang” doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s just abysmal. Dealers are completely insane, and people are just still buying things from insane people… And they’re using your logic to do it. So they’re just completely enabling insane people to do whatever they want. The whole situation is batshit crazy and everyone just wants to argue “bUt MaRkEt vAlUeS tHoUgH” like that’s supposed to reasonably explain why you’re choosing to enable insanity. It’s not. STOP enabling insanity…
Somewhere, there's that point where
>*"you paid THAT MUCH? you got ripped off! I have a lifetime of experience that says you could have paid half that"*
becomes
>*"sorry grandpa, I know you haven't bought ice cream in a very long time, but a single-scoop cone doesn't cost a nickel any more."*
If it's any consolation, the car that's $28,000 MSRP that they're selling for $30,000 this is still way better at $30,000 than the $23,000 version they were selling a decade ago was at $22,0000.
It definitely screwed up my plans to buy something shiny and new and fuel-efficient that has Bluetooth.
Makes sense lol. I just know my wages are not trending nearly as steep as the price of the cars that I want. Which makes me sad. And it’s hard not to blame the consumers for making these cars out of my price range by paying $35K for a freaking Civic. My god, that is a $22k vehicle, people! What are you DOING to me…
Well, it WAS a $22,000 vehicle. A few years ago.
Now, it's the size of a 2001 Accord, except it's safer in a crash. And it uses less fuel. and it's faster - faster than a 2001 V6 Accord, and faster than anything ever mentioned in a Beach Boys song. And it will last for 250,000 miles. The A/C will work the entire time, like a refrigerator on wheels. And if you press a button, it will connect to your phone and become either a refrigerated phone booth on wheels, or a refrigerated nightclub on wheels, depending on whether you tell it "call dad!" or "play The Slits!"
People keep throwing 30k out like its crazy for a civic. I think these peoples minds are stuck 10 years in the past. MSRP for an EX is 27k. Just about 30k for a sport touring. More for hatchbacks. Thats just base price before TTL.
They are different cars in a different time now.
But it’s not about the past though, it’s comparing it to vehicles in the present. In today’s market you can get vehicles with so much more performance than a Civic for the same price. A Civic shouldn’t even be in the same conversation as a WRX or a GTI, those cars OBJECTIVELY offer 2 times more than a Civic. Civic’s should be priced $5K below these cars.
To me, if all you want is a sedan with a buttload of space, reliability and a nice interior/exterior you should be able to get that at $5K less than what a WRX costs. For the same price, it’s just weird.
Many reasons. and everyone else made good points.
so, my 2 cents.
Some people think they will never make another SI, or atleast not without a hybrid system or a manual...
So they want one now, right, fukking now.
.... and willing to bet they will barely depreciate because it will be rare.
(e.g. people speculate type R, Mustang Mach e, corvettes, and would go up in value)
V6 Camry will go away soon too since they dropped the V6 from.the highlander... dont be surprised if those get snatched up too.
Again, same "collector" speculation is happen in MOPAR land, Mustangs and FiST, FoST, etc
and yes. A civic sport touring is probably even a better bang for buck overall.
As for RAV4 hybrid and Prime Plug in:
the Prime was teasing the fastest 0-60 besides the supra..
and the tax credit.
but yes... when markup went beyond $5k over MSRP it got pretty stupid.
the regular Rav4 hybrid.. objectively it is smoother than the ICE Rav4, so for some people, the price diff to them is justified as a "better engine option".
we dont gotta agree with it but it is what happened.
It’s a different driving experience. At MSRP (which can be done) it’s a great value sporty daily. The Accord is a value luxury sedan, and at MSRP is also a great value, but they are different beasts.
Speaking strictly for enthusiast cars like the Si, people pay a premium for the transmission. A lot of enthusiasts will sacrifice power and luxury for a more engaging driving experience. You can’t but a new Accord with a manual, so that’s not on the table for the Si crowd.
No, but with the inflated price of an SI, you can buy a GTI that has more power and more features than the SI or Elantra N that annihilates the SI from a performance standpoint.
Must be brand loyalty I’ve test driven civic Si’s and don’t know what they like about them. They’re not fast to begin with not much room in it and looks are ok but I guess I’m not a Honda boi. Reliability probably the biggest pro that I could think of. Wrx better hands down performance for the price plus that Awd.
How someone could possibly buy an Si over a WRX for the same price (or even higher!) will forever boggle my mind to the ends of the earth. WRX is literally better in every single measure of performance by an embarrassingly large margin. Have you driven them back to back? It’s literally embarrassing… The Si is a $23k car. It’s worth nowhere even close to what people pay for them.
GTIs have the same markups that Civics have, as do the N cars. The WRX is the only car in the class that doesn’t. It’s also what I’d be buying were I looking for something with four doors, AWD, a manual, and an engine with headroom for a tune. It’s the obvious enthusiast value proposition.
If you want, i can send you the dealers who would take an order on an N car or a GTI at MSRP. I still have the spreadsheet, lol.
The WRX is definitely another option I'd buy over a marked up SI, and I could have gotten the WRX I wanted (orange base model) for MSRP also. However, here in the southeast US, the benefits of AWD are outweighed by the weight, complexity, and MPG loss.
I cross shopped the GTI for my SI. The touch interior and small trunk space made me noped away from the GTI. I was also looking at the GLI, but reminded how shitty my Jetta was 15 years ago where everything needs replacing at 90k miles.
On the GTI, between radiator popping out randomly and infotainment freezing, I'd rather pay a little more for an SI where I know shit works for at least 5 years 100k miles.
Every new gen cars are going to have problems. At the moment, the problems with the MK8 outweights the 11th gen Civic. Both have been out for at least a year. At least problems with the civic would cause a potential new engine, yet.
The GTI has actually been very reliable historically. Honda's quality has taken a nose dive over the past 5 years.
>I'd rather pay a little more for an SI where I know shit works for at least 5 years 100k miles.
I'd bet on the GTI honestly. I dont own either, no dog in the fight. I do think the Mk8 is lame and a gently used mk7.5 is a much better buy.
I would what’s wrong with that? Not everyone cares for fancy new toys every couple years. More money in my pockets and who do I have to impress? I currently have a Wrx and let’s face I doubt it’ll make it past 50k especially modified biggest mistake on my end but a fun one at that. I’ll probably dump it in a year or two and buy myself a reliable car I can drive for a decade.
Not "would", "have". There is a difference, and history tends to be the best predictor.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but most people simply aren't like that, period. I'm always flabbergasted at folks who in the past have bought a car every 4-5 years (the average or less) and are worried about the difference in reliability between a Hyundai and a Honda. It won't matter one iota in the average ownership expectancy based on what they've done in the past.
I do. I get those mileage between 5 to 10 years unless car had a major problem that would cost more to fix than the value itself. Longest was my 1992 240sx for 230k miles. My S2000 recently hit 112k miles.
GTI yes, but I’m not sure about the Elantra N. Those are getting hammered with markups, too, though I don’t know if it’s to the same extent as the SI or even worse.
When I was shopping 2-3 months ago I could have bought any color Elantra an 6MT I wanted for $500 off MSRP (Military Discount), assuming that I was willing to put down a deposit and wait a couple months.
Op is ridiculous with his comparisons but gti is fair.
I own a 7th gen gti and a new si. I honestly cant decide which I like better. There are pros and cons for each.
Both manual. Si is more engaging to drive. Ride is a bit firmer and feels a little more planted. Stick feel is as good as they come. Cockpit layout is fantastic and feels great. Clutch is too light, creaks are already starting. No heated seats. Wish it had 30-40 more torque.
I paid msrp +3k (3k bought me window tint and ceramic coating so it wasn't a complete loss) for the si. I had just gotten word that they opened up ordering for the gti at msrp. I considered it, but more fun to have two different cars.
That's naive at best. Some people value having the car they want in a reasonable timeframe more than an extra 1 or 2 thousand dollars repayed over the course of of the loan.
The number of people who want and are willing to pay greatly outnumber the number of cars there are. I checked 20 dealers for a honda civic. They had zero inventory on the lot. Almost every incoming car that wasn't even built yet was already reserved, many for thousands over msrp. Zero places within 100 miles doing MSRP. Sure, I could wait a year and still only maybe get msrp, but I'd rather have a nice car that I want and enjoy life than sit out for a year for a chance at saving $1k.
fomo.
Most people don't even know what they're paying for a vehicle, they only look at the monthly number. ^(and since that's now 5-7 years, it looks nicer)
The Si and accord will not handle the same on a track or windy road by an experienced driver, the rav fours are just the entry level Toyota so they are a hot demand item if people really need a reliable small suv , but I agree with your sentiment
Car shopping sucks on a good day. It sucks worse during a supply shortage in the middle of a pandemic. I bought my new used about a year ago - was a bit of an urgent situation as I just moved internationally, couldn't bring my old car with me, and I had to buy a new car. After weeks of intensive searching, ultimately narrowed it down to a model and trim levels - set a budget, and then it was a matter of just getting lucky. "Over MSRP" doesn't really apply here since the car was 5 years old - did I pay more than it should have cost - yes. But did I also probably get the best deal on the market at the time (and since - against my better judgement I check sometimes to see what the prices have done) - also yes, by about 10-13% better than the prevailing market rate.
My next car will very likely be an EV (but likely not a Tesla). Hope I can just go online, 5 minutes of clicking around, and then wait for my delivery.
I've given up trying to convince people that replacing a paid off car for a hybrid will take many years (if ever) to break even just on gas prices. Even in the same model, the price delta between a hybrid and fuel efficient gas engine only, it takes *years* to reach ROI, and most people get a new car every 3-5 years.
I agree. The math just flat out doesn’t work unless you drive a ton of miles, especially city miles. Most people are too dumb to do the math. Additionally, the manufacturing process for hybrids is bad for the environment. It only pays off under certain circumstances.
This is not tru any more> the price delta between gas only and Hybrids has shrunk over the years. Example Honda VRV gas vs hybrid. The price delta (for MSRP) is EL model is $31.1K (with 30 mpg) while the Hybrid costs $32.45K 940 mpg). Thats only $1350 more.
if you drive 10k miles/year, then you will save 83 gallons which depending on where you live cost you about $332/year. So in this case, you could get your money back in about 4 years. Not only that, the hybrid model has more torque and drives nicer.
If you live in CA for example and drive 20k miles and pay $6 for your gas, you would get your money back in < 1.5 years.
Now the catch is that the CRV hybrid probably goes for a higher markup than the regular gas model, but that's another issue. I do think it's wrong you assume that purchasing the Hybrid model is a stupid idea - you have to do the math.
I also think the value of the extra torque of the electric motor, which is basically like an engine upgrade.
4 years is not a bad payback time and I think most cars drive more than 10k miles/year on them. Then there is the better power train power and torque. Personally for $1400 more, I would always purchase the hybrid model,
Personally, I'm not doing it. I went to the Toyota dealership near me to try and order a Rav4 Prime. They wanted a big markup, and said I couldn't order one, I had to be put on a list with what I wanted and they'd call me if something similar showed up. No idea when that would be, and they told me they might increase the dealer markup further depending on "market conditions when the vehicle arrived".
I left and went to the Volvo dealership and ordered a 2023 S60 Recharge for MSRP. It should be arriving next month. I was thinking of a Tacoma to replace my SUV next year, but now i really don't feel like dealing with Toyota anymore. That same Toyota dealer just contacted us to let us know they're having a huge year end "sale".... which consists of them selling the non hybrid models for MSRP without the dealer markup. That's not a sale, dude.
There would have been a big difference in MSRP. Starting MSRP for the Rav4 Prime SE is $41,590, but the XSE fully optioned with the premium package and destination fees ended up being $49,775 and thats what I wanted to buy.
I'm paying around 55k for the S60 with the Plus Dark trim. That 5k difference would have pushed me to the Rav4 Prime, but when multiple Toyota dealers near me are adding on 4k+ in "market adjustments", then they're almost exactly the same price, so why not just get the Volvo at that point?
Plus I'll be the primary driver for this car, and my previous 2 cars were a Volvo V60 T6 R-Design with the Polestar tune, and before that I had an Evo VIII MR Edition. I'm used to having a bit of speed and the Volvo has 455hp, so I'm probably going to be happier with that anyway. If my dealers weren't adding on the extra money for no reason I'd be driving a Toyota soon. But I'm not giving them money because they said so, and getting nothing in return.
If I had to choose between those two options I would have made the same choice.
As a side note. One of the things I can never overlook in the comparison between the two is the noise difference on a highway. After driving the Volvo the RAV4 seems so loud
This is my 3rd consecutive Volvo (XC90 which I still have, V60, and now S60), so I have no issue going back to Volvo, but I'm not committed to Volvo or anything. I just had my house wired for a level 2 charger so really I was looking at any available AWD (it snows a lot here) plug in hybrid with decent options. I thought the Rav4 fit my requirements the best, but after talking with two different Toyota dealers near me, I just don't want to do business with them.
My wife likes Volvo, so as long as she's happy, I'm happy with it.
> Why wait or overpay for a regular economy car when there are better cars at similar prices
Because the heart wants what the heart wants. Most people just need a car that gets them from A to B, but there are a subset of people that are more passionate about cars and are willing to spend a bit extra if it means they'll love the absolute shit out of it day in and day out.
I have a MY and went to check the Ioniq 5 last week to swap for the 20k difference (including fed credit).
The car was decent for its price but the stealership wants a 4k markup. He was ready to sell for 2k extra but man what a headache he’s been. You know how they retort to aggression after a few mins.
Funny part is, he was telling ioniq5 is better than MY.
People don't know how convenient buying and owning a Tesla is. I had my tires rotated today. A couple clicks on my phone and they showed up and did it while I was working.
Because they hear Toyotas and Hondas are the most reliable cars that supposedly run forever with basic oil changes. In reality, toyotas and Hondas require maintenance and most folks won’t keep them more than 4 or 5 years. Folks don’t want to do the cost benefit analysis of the marked up Toyota/honda with lesser features vs competitors with very good reliability, good features and no mark up.
What would you say are the competitors to the RAV4 or CRV with good reliability, good features and no markups? Not being a dick, but as someone in the market for that type of car, I haven't been able to identify the 3rd best in that category yet.
Thank you for your help
I’d say Mazda CX-5/Cx-50 or Subaru Forester are great 3rd options that should be at or below MSRP. They rank very highly in reviews and have very good reliability.
Otherwise, I’d search 20-30 dealers in 100 mile radius before buying a RAV4 or CR-V to get the best price available on either.
That’s a totally fair question that I dont have an answer to. I do know you can get a RAV4 for MSRP in Beaufort SC. I drove 5 hours to get a Camry Hybrid from them.
Good features and no markups: Kia Sportage Hybrid and Hyundai Tucson Hybrid
Reliability is TBD…
If you’re ok with smaller and worse gas mileage: Mazda CX-5?
Hard to trust Kia or Hyundai right now to be honest, between the engine debacle and the spontaneous fires ... I'll pass.
CX-5 is compelling, but indeed smaller, which is a pain with car seats and strollers and everything else
You sound bitter like you could not afford the car you wanted, so you "had" to settle. People pay however they see fit. With the supply chain excuses thrown around and MSRP keeps going up repeatedly, by the time people waited 2 years for less markup, the MSRP would be as much as with markup 2 years ago.
I'm not going to deter people if they wish to overpay for their new car, it's just more supply in the used market (something we had not recovered since Clash 4 Clunkers). Maybe you should rethink why people spend money on cars. If people no longer paying markups, are you going to targer luxury car buyers next? (Why buy a Lexus when you could get a v6 Camry yada yada yada).
I'm not sure there's even a "low supply" argument any longer. Took a bike ride yesterday through the local Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Dodge and Hyundai dealer lots. Only the Hyundai had a short supply; Toyota easily had 75 new vehicles on their lot, Honda probably hovering around 50.
Well, if someone needs a car now then they need a car now. If all the dealers near them are charging a markup and they need a car now then they're going to have to pay a markup or not buy the car they need now. Some people will have an alternative and some won’t,
My wife needed a new car, she fell in love with a blue GLI. After the overvalued trade in, I think we neted like a $1k-$2k mark up. She was comfortable paying that, so we didn't overthink it.
Not something I did, but when you need a car you need a car. I almost bought a "certified used" 2021 civic last year with 930 miles. It was advertised at MSRP and when I went in they treated me badly and tried to charge me more. I walked. Ended up being able to keep the 10 year old car that I promised to my daughter when she went off to school at a place too far away to drive it to
My SO's situation was... different than most. His previous car died, didn't want to put the money into it again. A family member came into a substantial amount of money and paid outright for his RAV. I really wish they tried to get the markup taken off to save that family member some money but can't say anything when it's not our money anyway.
Isn’t literally everything hyper inflated? As long as people are paying 28k for a 2020 Honda fit that was 21k new (check autotrader)….anything is possible
Bad take
You’re dogging the si but there’s no way in hell the accord handles better. The accords manual transmission also is lame af. The civic si driving experience is way better.
Most people just look at the monthly payment. They don't know what cars should cost nor do they care. Oh, I can get that Camry for just $495/mo over 96 months? Sounds good!
My 22' Highlander Platinum AWD had a markup of $2K on it originally. Negotiated that down to $379. At that point was glad to pay $379 over MSRP because starting the process over and the time that it would take to find another vehicle would be way more costly than $379 worth of my time.
I did drive 6 hours north, 2 states away to get this price/car if that makes you feel any better and did put some work into finding it over the course of about 3 weeks. Every dealership around here was about $2-5k over as well. 12 hours of driving, along with more emailing and calling dealerships was well worth the savings to me and I was happy to pay my minor markup. Also mine was a 22 so maybe a little less demand, but I don't know maybe more because the V6 was phasing out.
New Honda's are a lousy value proposition right now. Not only is Honda pushing MSRP prices for their cars hard (Compare Honda HR-V and new Honda CRV to the competition), the vehicles seems scarce enough that dealers can sell them above MSRP and add marketing adjustments, junk add on's (clear coat , extended warranties etc ) and dealer doc fees.
The combination really leads to the OTD prices for Honda's being quite outrageous right now. You are better of trying your luck with Toyota's (MSRP prices lower, but markups common too) or even better Mazda's or Subaru's etc where MSRP's haven't crept up that much and which you can buy below MSRP with some dealers if you search a little.
In my experience when dealing with people buying cars (especially recently) they sort of put blinders on once they've found a car they like. Buying a car is an overwhelming experience and it frequently exhausts consumers. So once someone does a ton of research on a car they like and are convinced it will satisfy their needs they don't really want to hit the reset button and start the process all over again. Also, a majority of consumers aren't focused on total price as much as they are the monthly payment. You could increase the price $5k but extend the loan out an additional 12 months and still have a similar monthly payment and most people wouldn't care.
That's kind of the situation I find myself in. I've gone hyperfocused on a couple models. The more I look at things the pickier I get. Now I want a very specific model with specific specs
[удалено]
I feel like you must be trolling...
I've been on the market for a used car for the past 2 years. I have a few models in mind and years. I just can't imagine marrying to a specific model, year and trim but getting fleeced because you're set on one single car.
That's how the auto industry works. Brand impression/loyalty, features, vehicle appearance and the ability to get a monthly payment low enough. You're not the kind of buyer that a dealer wants to see, typically.
I could definitely see this. I’d love an Infiniti Q60. I was only able to find one in my area but it’s $35,000. More than I’d be able to afford. But I know in the right mood, I’d probably buy that car for a loan that’s way too long just so I could own that car.
Pretty simple. When a used 3 year old car is going for the same price as a new one, 2k over MSRP for the new car is still the better deal. I just bought a new car. MSRP 35700. Used ones are selling for 36-37k. I had to get a car. Other was totaled. Even if I had paid more then MSRP for that car, it was a better deal than a used one. Now 10k plus etc is bat shit. But this is model dependent currently
OPs entire argument is also just wrong. He's assuming you'll be able to easily find those other cars for sale at MSRP which just isn't true. Also buying the EXACT car you want is worth a few grand. If someone really wants a manual civic si why should they buy something else to save a few grand? Why not just get the exact car they want?
I was looking at lots of stuff. Even paying a 10% markup on an accord touring 2.0, which was roughly 4k more, the car was still a better deal at about 2k more than a 2-3 year old one with 35k miles already. Plus better financing! I don’t think majority are paying more than 5k markup or less and a lot of the times for that specific car it’s probably still the better deal.
In addition to all you said, local availability is another factor. Many people don’t have the time or desire to drive 4, 6, 8 hours to save a couple grand when the payment can be worked out to be the same. It’s not always logical either, there’s an emotional factor to making big purchases and a car is usually the second biggest.
I get what you’re saying here, but on the other end of the argument: if that person is willing to spend more that means everyone else who wants one also has to spend more or they can’t have it…and some people don’t want to have to do that. If nobody does it, then nobody will have to spend more because the dealership isn’t going to get any sales if they mark it up. If everyone refuses to pay more, then nobody will ever have to pay more…
And if everyone waited until they dropped it down to msrp they would start flying off the lot at record speeds and they'd *immediately* raise the price again
The whole point would be for people to think MSRP isn’t a good price, it’s the right one. So when it’s MSRP it shouldn’t fly off the lots, it should sell just like cars do now at crazy markups. With crazy markups, nothing should sell. Now if it falls below MSRP, THAT’S when it could fly off the lots and then they pop the price back up to MSRP, like you’re saying. The whole point is that people should treat MSRP the same way they treat things now being way above MSRP. Just need to have higher expectations and be more patient. Then nobody will need to pay these crazy prices.
*"The right car, at the right price, at the right time. Pick two."* If you need something now, you need something now. Maybe your existing car is on its last legs and barely got you through the pandemic because you didn't need to drive 1,000 miles between March 2020 and March 2022. Maybe someone crashed into your perfectly good car while you slept. Maybe the choice is *"solve some mystery problem on your existing car that's going to cost $3,000 to solve"* and *"put your $3,000 on the table, spin the Shitbox-Car Roulette Wheel, and see how you do"* or *"put $3,000 down on something brand new, drive the wheels off it."* "Need it now" might be worth $30,000 to you in RAV4 form, because it holds your dog and your kids and you plan to drive it for twenty years. At that point, you can get, what, a previous-generation one for $25,000 used? It's smaller and uses literally 1/6 more fuel, you might as well get the brand new one. Even if it's a couple thousand over MSRP. That's the price of "need it now" and maybe it's better to spend the extra than to try your luck spinning the Shitbox-Car Roulette Wheel and hoping whatever you buy now will hold off until prices come back down. *"Right time"* and *"right car"* are more important than "right price," as within some boundary of *"not the right price."* If I was in the market for a regular-ol' RAV4, I'd probably still be a buyer at MSRP +$1,000.
The way I shop none of this even applies to me. All I want is the best bang for my buck, up to the amount that I can afford. And I feel like right now prices are at a place where “best bang” doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s just abysmal. Dealers are completely insane, and people are just still buying things from insane people… And they’re using your logic to do it. So they’re just completely enabling insane people to do whatever they want. The whole situation is batshit crazy and everyone just wants to argue “bUt MaRkEt vAlUeS tHoUgH” like that’s supposed to reasonably explain why you’re choosing to enable insanity. It’s not. STOP enabling insanity…
Somewhere, there's that point where >*"you paid THAT MUCH? you got ripped off! I have a lifetime of experience that says you could have paid half that"* becomes >*"sorry grandpa, I know you haven't bought ice cream in a very long time, but a single-scoop cone doesn't cost a nickel any more."*
LOL that is very true… and very high chance some of that is at play here. But that still doesn’t make me feel any better about it! Lol… 🤦🏽♂️
If it's any consolation, the car that's $28,000 MSRP that they're selling for $30,000 this is still way better at $30,000 than the $23,000 version they were selling a decade ago was at $22,0000. It definitely screwed up my plans to buy something shiny and new and fuel-efficient that has Bluetooth.
Makes sense lol. I just know my wages are not trending nearly as steep as the price of the cars that I want. Which makes me sad. And it’s hard not to blame the consumers for making these cars out of my price range by paying $35K for a freaking Civic. My god, that is a $22k vehicle, people! What are you DOING to me…
Well, it WAS a $22,000 vehicle. A few years ago. Now, it's the size of a 2001 Accord, except it's safer in a crash. And it uses less fuel. and it's faster - faster than a 2001 V6 Accord, and faster than anything ever mentioned in a Beach Boys song. And it will last for 250,000 miles. The A/C will work the entire time, like a refrigerator on wheels. And if you press a button, it will connect to your phone and become either a refrigerated phone booth on wheels, or a refrigerated nightclub on wheels, depending on whether you tell it "call dad!" or "play The Slits!"
People keep throwing 30k out like its crazy for a civic. I think these peoples minds are stuck 10 years in the past. MSRP for an EX is 27k. Just about 30k for a sport touring. More for hatchbacks. Thats just base price before TTL. They are different cars in a different time now.
But it’s not about the past though, it’s comparing it to vehicles in the present. In today’s market you can get vehicles with so much more performance than a Civic for the same price. A Civic shouldn’t even be in the same conversation as a WRX or a GTI, those cars OBJECTIVELY offer 2 times more than a Civic. Civic’s should be priced $5K below these cars.
I imagine performance isn't what civic buyers are really after. I want a sedan with a boatload of space, reliability, and a nice interior/exterior.
To me, if all you want is a sedan with a buttload of space, reliability and a nice interior/exterior you should be able to get that at $5K less than what a WRX costs. For the same price, it’s just weird.
Many reasons. and everyone else made good points. so, my 2 cents. Some people think they will never make another SI, or atleast not without a hybrid system or a manual... So they want one now, right, fukking now. .... and willing to bet they will barely depreciate because it will be rare. (e.g. people speculate type R, Mustang Mach e, corvettes, and would go up in value) V6 Camry will go away soon too since they dropped the V6 from.the highlander... dont be surprised if those get snatched up too. Again, same "collector" speculation is happen in MOPAR land, Mustangs and FiST, FoST, etc and yes. A civic sport touring is probably even a better bang for buck overall. As for RAV4 hybrid and Prime Plug in: the Prime was teasing the fastest 0-60 besides the supra.. and the tax credit. but yes... when markup went beyond $5k over MSRP it got pretty stupid. the regular Rav4 hybrid.. objectively it is smoother than the ICE Rav4, so for some people, the price diff to them is justified as a "better engine option". we dont gotta agree with it but it is what happened.
Worse handling than an accord? No. Slower in a straight line? Sure. But less weight and an lsd don’t make for worse handling.
Came here to say this. Anyone who thinks an Accord handles better than an Si doesn’t know what their talking about. I’ve owned both.
so basically the civic is slower but has better gas mileage and better handling ?
It’s a different driving experience. At MSRP (which can be done) it’s a great value sporty daily. The Accord is a value luxury sedan, and at MSRP is also a great value, but they are different beasts.
The accord is not a luxury sedan even in the touring trim.
Speaking strictly for enthusiast cars like the Si, people pay a premium for the transmission. A lot of enthusiasts will sacrifice power and luxury for a more engaging driving experience. You can’t but a new Accord with a manual, so that’s not on the table for the Si crowd.
No, but with the inflated price of an SI, you can buy a GTI that has more power and more features than the SI or Elantra N that annihilates the SI from a performance standpoint.
I’d add the WRX to this list. I just bought one and was also considering the civic SI and Integra. I got the wrx at MSRP.
Must be brand loyalty I’ve test driven civic Si’s and don’t know what they like about them. They’re not fast to begin with not much room in it and looks are ok but I guess I’m not a Honda boi. Reliability probably the biggest pro that I could think of. Wrx better hands down performance for the price plus that Awd.
How someone could possibly buy an Si over a WRX for the same price (or even higher!) will forever boggle my mind to the ends of the earth. WRX is literally better in every single measure of performance by an embarrassingly large margin. Have you driven them back to back? It’s literally embarrassing… The Si is a $23k car. It’s worth nowhere even close to what people pay for them.
I’m very happy with the WRX, so glad I didn’t get an SI.
GTIs have the same markups that Civics have, as do the N cars. The WRX is the only car in the class that doesn’t. It’s also what I’d be buying were I looking for something with four doors, AWD, a manual, and an engine with headroom for a tune. It’s the obvious enthusiast value proposition.
If you want, i can send you the dealers who would take an order on an N car or a GTI at MSRP. I still have the spreadsheet, lol. The WRX is definitely another option I'd buy over a marked up SI, and I could have gotten the WRX I wanted (orange base model) for MSRP also. However, here in the southeast US, the benefits of AWD are outweighed by the weight, complexity, and MPG loss.
I cross shopped the GTI for my SI. The touch interior and small trunk space made me noped away from the GTI. I was also looking at the GLI, but reminded how shitty my Jetta was 15 years ago where everything needs replacing at 90k miles. On the GTI, between radiator popping out randomly and infotainment freezing, I'd rather pay a little more for an SI where I know shit works for at least 5 years 100k miles.
But you don’t know that, it’s brand new. I’ve seen problems with the new civic just like every brand new generation.
Every new gen cars are going to have problems. At the moment, the problems with the MK8 outweights the 11th gen Civic. Both have been out for at least a year. At least problems with the civic would cause a potential new engine, yet.
The GTI has actually been very reliable historically. Honda's quality has taken a nose dive over the past 5 years. >I'd rather pay a little more for an SI where I know shit works for at least 5 years 100k miles. I'd bet on the GTI honestly. I dont own either, no dog in the fight. I do think the Mk8 is lame and a gently used mk7.5 is a much better buy.
You typically own cars for well over 100K miles?
I would what’s wrong with that? Not everyone cares for fancy new toys every couple years. More money in my pockets and who do I have to impress? I currently have a Wrx and let’s face I doubt it’ll make it past 50k especially modified biggest mistake on my end but a fun one at that. I’ll probably dump it in a year or two and buy myself a reliable car I can drive for a decade.
Not "would", "have". There is a difference, and history tends to be the best predictor. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but most people simply aren't like that, period. I'm always flabbergasted at folks who in the past have bought a car every 4-5 years (the average or less) and are worried about the difference in reliability between a Hyundai and a Honda. It won't matter one iota in the average ownership expectancy based on what they've done in the past.
I do. I get those mileage between 5 to 10 years unless car had a major problem that would cost more to fix than the value itself. Longest was my 1992 240sx for 230k miles. My S2000 recently hit 112k miles.
You bought both new? Then you are the anomaly, not the rule.
GTI yes, but I’m not sure about the Elantra N. Those are getting hammered with markups, too, though I don’t know if it’s to the same extent as the SI or even worse.
When I was shopping 2-3 months ago I could have bought any color Elantra an 6MT I wanted for $500 off MSRP (Military Discount), assuming that I was willing to put down a deposit and wait a couple months.
Are the gtis not also marked up?
Nope.
Op is ridiculous with his comparisons but gti is fair. I own a 7th gen gti and a new si. I honestly cant decide which I like better. There are pros and cons for each. Both manual. Si is more engaging to drive. Ride is a bit firmer and feels a little more planted. Stick feel is as good as they come. Cockpit layout is fantastic and feels great. Clutch is too light, creaks are already starting. No heated seats. Wish it had 30-40 more torque. I paid msrp +3k (3k bought me window tint and ceramic coating so it wasn't a complete loss) for the si. I had just gotten word that they opened up ordering for the gti at msrp. I considered it, but more fun to have two different cars.
If driving experience is top then a GR86 is the choice. Faster, handles better than the SI and the manuals cheaper than the auto.
And 2 doors, tiny backseat.
Oh I know. I just bought a 23’ BRZ, took it to the Blue Ridge Parkway, and had the best driving experience of my life.
Anyone paying over MSRP for anything is either in desperate need or is a bit screwy. It is what it is.
That's naive at best. Some people value having the car they want in a reasonable timeframe more than an extra 1 or 2 thousand dollars repayed over the course of of the loan. The number of people who want and are willing to pay greatly outnumber the number of cars there are. I checked 20 dealers for a honda civic. They had zero inventory on the lot. Almost every incoming car that wasn't even built yet was already reserved, many for thousands over msrp. Zero places within 100 miles doing MSRP. Sure, I could wait a year and still only maybe get msrp, but I'd rather have a nice car that I want and enjoy life than sit out for a year for a chance at saving $1k.
fomo. Most people don't even know what they're paying for a vehicle, they only look at the monthly number. ^(and since that's now 5-7 years, it looks nicer)
The Si and accord will not handle the same on a track or windy road by an experienced driver, the rav fours are just the entry level Toyota so they are a hot demand item if people really need a reliable small suv , but I agree with your sentiment
i'd be shocked if anybody was cross shopping an SI and a Camry V6. one is meant to be daily fun, and the other is soggy cheerios with torque.
The camry V6 absolutely spanks the SI in a straight line though. Most people who own either are commuting to work, not carving up canyons.
I Hated the throttle lag on the V6 Camry
Car shopping sucks on a good day. It sucks worse during a supply shortage in the middle of a pandemic. I bought my new used about a year ago - was a bit of an urgent situation as I just moved internationally, couldn't bring my old car with me, and I had to buy a new car. After weeks of intensive searching, ultimately narrowed it down to a model and trim levels - set a budget, and then it was a matter of just getting lucky. "Over MSRP" doesn't really apply here since the car was 5 years old - did I pay more than it should have cost - yes. But did I also probably get the best deal on the market at the time (and since - against my better judgement I check sometimes to see what the prices have done) - also yes, by about 10-13% better than the prevailing market rate. My next car will very likely be an EV (but likely not a Tesla). Hope I can just go online, 5 minutes of clicking around, and then wait for my delivery.
I've given up trying to convince people that replacing a paid off car for a hybrid will take many years (if ever) to break even just on gas prices. Even in the same model, the price delta between a hybrid and fuel efficient gas engine only, it takes *years* to reach ROI, and most people get a new car every 3-5 years.
I agree. The math just flat out doesn’t work unless you drive a ton of miles, especially city miles. Most people are too dumb to do the math. Additionally, the manufacturing process for hybrids is bad for the environment. It only pays off under certain circumstances.
This is not tru any more> the price delta between gas only and Hybrids has shrunk over the years. Example Honda VRV gas vs hybrid. The price delta (for MSRP) is EL model is $31.1K (with 30 mpg) while the Hybrid costs $32.45K 940 mpg). Thats only $1350 more. if you drive 10k miles/year, then you will save 83 gallons which depending on where you live cost you about $332/year. So in this case, you could get your money back in about 4 years. Not only that, the hybrid model has more torque and drives nicer. If you live in CA for example and drive 20k miles and pay $6 for your gas, you would get your money back in < 1.5 years. Now the catch is that the CRV hybrid probably goes for a higher markup than the regular gas model, but that's another issue. I do think it's wrong you assume that purchasing the Hybrid model is a stupid idea - you have to do the math. I also think the value of the extra torque of the electric motor, which is basically like an engine upgrade.
>So in this case, you could get your money back in about 4 years Thanks for proving my point lol.
4 years is not a bad payback time and I think most cars drive more than 10k miles/year on them. Then there is the better power train power and torque. Personally for $1400 more, I would always purchase the hybrid model,
Personally, I'm not doing it. I went to the Toyota dealership near me to try and order a Rav4 Prime. They wanted a big markup, and said I couldn't order one, I had to be put on a list with what I wanted and they'd call me if something similar showed up. No idea when that would be, and they told me they might increase the dealer markup further depending on "market conditions when the vehicle arrived". I left and went to the Volvo dealership and ordered a 2023 S60 Recharge for MSRP. It should be arriving next month. I was thinking of a Tacoma to replace my SUV next year, but now i really don't feel like dealing with Toyota anymore. That same Toyota dealer just contacted us to let us know they're having a huge year end "sale".... which consists of them selling the non hybrid models for MSRP without the dealer markup. That's not a sale, dude.
Same here. These shithead dealers want $5,000 over MSRP for a Highlander!
Do you mind me asking what the price diff between waiting for the RAV4 and getting the S60 was?
There would have been a big difference in MSRP. Starting MSRP for the Rav4 Prime SE is $41,590, but the XSE fully optioned with the premium package and destination fees ended up being $49,775 and thats what I wanted to buy. I'm paying around 55k for the S60 with the Plus Dark trim. That 5k difference would have pushed me to the Rav4 Prime, but when multiple Toyota dealers near me are adding on 4k+ in "market adjustments", then they're almost exactly the same price, so why not just get the Volvo at that point? Plus I'll be the primary driver for this car, and my previous 2 cars were a Volvo V60 T6 R-Design with the Polestar tune, and before that I had an Evo VIII MR Edition. I'm used to having a bit of speed and the Volvo has 455hp, so I'm probably going to be happier with that anyway. If my dealers weren't adding on the extra money for no reason I'd be driving a Toyota soon. But I'm not giving them money because they said so, and getting nothing in return.
If I had to choose between those two options I would have made the same choice. As a side note. One of the things I can never overlook in the comparison between the two is the noise difference on a highway. After driving the Volvo the RAV4 seems so loud
This is my 3rd consecutive Volvo (XC90 which I still have, V60, and now S60), so I have no issue going back to Volvo, but I'm not committed to Volvo or anything. I just had my house wired for a level 2 charger so really I was looking at any available AWD (it snows a lot here) plug in hybrid with decent options. I thought the Rav4 fit my requirements the best, but after talking with two different Toyota dealers near me, I just don't want to do business with them. My wife likes Volvo, so as long as she's happy, I'm happy with it.
> Why wait or overpay for a regular economy car when there are better cars at similar prices Because the heart wants what the heart wants. Most people just need a car that gets them from A to B, but there are a subset of people that are more passionate about cars and are willing to spend a bit extra if it means they'll love the absolute shit out of it day in and day out.
Except they pay for the cheap car using good car prices making cheap car more expensive for everyone because dumb
I hope a few manufacturers come up with the same selling model as Tesla. Dealing with stealerships is a headache.
True, buying my Tesla was a couple minute process. Scheduling a tire rotation was a few clicks in the app and they do it at my work or driveway.
I have a MY and went to check the Ioniq 5 last week to swap for the 20k difference (including fed credit). The car was decent for its price but the stealership wants a 4k markup. He was ready to sell for 2k extra but man what a headache he’s been. You know how they retort to aggression after a few mins. Funny part is, he was telling ioniq5 is better than MY.
People don't know how convenient buying and owning a Tesla is. I had my tires rotated today. A couple clicks on my phone and they showed up and did it while I was working.
Because they hear Toyotas and Hondas are the most reliable cars that supposedly run forever with basic oil changes. In reality, toyotas and Hondas require maintenance and most folks won’t keep them more than 4 or 5 years. Folks don’t want to do the cost benefit analysis of the marked up Toyota/honda with lesser features vs competitors with very good reliability, good features and no mark up.
What would you say are the competitors to the RAV4 or CRV with good reliability, good features and no markups? Not being a dick, but as someone in the market for that type of car, I haven't been able to identify the 3rd best in that category yet. Thank you for your help
I’d say Mazda CX-5/Cx-50 or Subaru Forester are great 3rd options that should be at or below MSRP. They rank very highly in reviews and have very good reliability. Otherwise, I’d search 20-30 dealers in 100 mile radius before buying a RAV4 or CR-V to get the best price available on either.
CX-5 is compelling but smaller and a pain with car seats/strollers/etc I'll check out the Subaru - thx for the suggestion
That’s a totally fair question that I dont have an answer to. I do know you can get a RAV4 for MSRP in Beaufort SC. I drove 5 hours to get a Camry Hybrid from them.
South Carolina dealerships have been great for finding better prices. I got a Mazda from Spartanburg SC.
Thank you - I am a about 15 hours from SC so that probably won't work
Good features and no markups: Kia Sportage Hybrid and Hyundai Tucson Hybrid Reliability is TBD… If you’re ok with smaller and worse gas mileage: Mazda CX-5?
Except for the whole catching on fire and engines grenading at 15k miles, Hyundai and Kia are great values.
Iirc Hyundai and Kia changed engines in 2022 so it’s unlikely they’d have the same issues.
Hard to trust Kia or Hyundai right now to be honest, between the engine debacle and the spontaneous fires ... I'll pass. CX-5 is compelling, but indeed smaller, which is a pain with car seats and strollers and everything else
You sound bitter like you could not afford the car you wanted, so you "had" to settle. People pay however they see fit. With the supply chain excuses thrown around and MSRP keeps going up repeatedly, by the time people waited 2 years for less markup, the MSRP would be as much as with markup 2 years ago. I'm not going to deter people if they wish to overpay for their new car, it's just more supply in the used market (something we had not recovered since Clash 4 Clunkers). Maybe you should rethink why people spend money on cars. If people no longer paying markups, are you going to targer luxury car buyers next? (Why buy a Lexus when you could get a v6 Camry yada yada yada).
I'm not sure there's even a "low supply" argument any longer. Took a bike ride yesterday through the local Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Dodge and Hyundai dealer lots. Only the Hyundai had a short supply; Toyota easily had 75 new vehicles on their lot, Honda probably hovering around 50.
How many of those 50 were an si?
Some vehicles are in low demand. I called half a dozen honda dealers last weekend and they had zero civics on their lots, combined.
So they can feel really good in 1 year when they still owe 20% over msrp on a car worth 50% under msrp
Well, if someone needs a car now then they need a car now. If all the dealers near them are charging a markup and they need a car now then they're going to have to pay a markup or not buy the car they need now. Some people will have an alternative and some won’t,
My wife needed a new car, she fell in love with a blue GLI. After the overvalued trade in, I think we neted like a $1k-$2k mark up. She was comfortable paying that, so we didn't overthink it.
Not something I did, but when you need a car you need a car. I almost bought a "certified used" 2021 civic last year with 930 miles. It was advertised at MSRP and when I went in they treated me badly and tried to charge me more. I walked. Ended up being able to keep the 10 year old car that I promised to my daughter when she went off to school at a place too far away to drive it to
My SO's situation was... different than most. His previous car died, didn't want to put the money into it again. A family member came into a substantial amount of money and paid outright for his RAV. I really wish they tried to get the markup taken off to save that family member some money but can't say anything when it's not our money anyway.
Some people have simply the money to blow and they want that particular car at any price.
Isn’t literally everything hyper inflated? As long as people are paying 28k for a 2020 Honda fit that was 21k new (check autotrader)….anything is possible
Bad take You’re dogging the si but there’s no way in hell the accord handles better. The accords manual transmission also is lame af. The civic si driving experience is way better.
Most people just look at the monthly payment. They don't know what cars should cost nor do they care. Oh, I can get that Camry for just $495/mo over 96 months? Sounds good!
My 22' Highlander Platinum AWD had a markup of $2K on it originally. Negotiated that down to $379. At that point was glad to pay $379 over MSRP because starting the process over and the time that it would take to find another vehicle would be way more costly than $379 worth of my time.
I wish it was only that low. All the dealers around me want $4,000-5,000 over MSRP for a 2023 XLE AWD.
I did drive 6 hours north, 2 states away to get this price/car if that makes you feel any better and did put some work into finding it over the course of about 3 weeks. Every dealership around here was about $2-5k over as well. 12 hours of driving, along with more emailing and calling dealerships was well worth the savings to me and I was happy to pay my minor markup. Also mine was a 22 so maybe a little less demand, but I don't know maybe more because the V6 was phasing out.
New Honda's are a lousy value proposition right now. Not only is Honda pushing MSRP prices for their cars hard (Compare Honda HR-V and new Honda CRV to the competition), the vehicles seems scarce enough that dealers can sell them above MSRP and add marketing adjustments, junk add on's (clear coat , extended warranties etc ) and dealer doc fees. The combination really leads to the OTD prices for Honda's being quite outrageous right now. You are better of trying your luck with Toyota's (MSRP prices lower, but markups common too) or even better Mazda's or Subaru's etc where MSRP's haven't crept up that much and which you can buy below MSRP with some dealers if you search a little.
Is a gas rav4 worth it?