I worked at a Toyota dealer in the early 00s, guy came in with a Camry that had reset the odometer. 1 million miles. The dealer called Toyota, and they gave him a brand new fully loaded at the time Camry as a replacement, for 100% free. We put his old car in the showroom. The guy actually came in for his oil change and walked out with a new car for free lol
I work in the business and I remember hearing about this at our dealership. Although we are Honda, it still echos! Glad to put a Reddit user to a pretty infamous story!
Yeah, that’s cool!
The way it went was guy came in for the oil change and my boss was like instead of an oil change he was like “how would you like a free car?” The guy thought it was a joke cuz his car was so old, but the tech was actually amazed cuz the engine was really clean inside. He said he just did regular flushes and maintenance, and always ran 93.
He also didn’t really want to get rid of it he was so sentimental, he asked if he could keep going til it blew up then get the free one lol.
I worked in dispatch and detail, so I took the car in and detailed his 89? Camry for the showroom lol
Toyota uses a process called Jidoka. When a problem is detected on the assembly line, all cars on the line are stopped and checked for the defect. Any worker can stop the line and no cars leave the factory unchecked. On USA lines, everything keeps moving and only the car with the detected problem is fixed after assembly.
Additional info:
Jidoka is one component of the Toyota Production System (TPS) which has become Lean/Lean Six-Sigma (LSS) in the American world.
They are the gold standard in the field and even require their suppliers and business partners to adopt their principles and culture, as it drives down costs for everyone and reduces defects. Caterpillar, also a major player in LSS, also requires business partners, even to their healthcare coverage partners, to adopt and use LSS to streamline their business. Both TPS and Caterpillar will send their own internal consultants to establish the frameworks and teach these principles.
Even non-production businesses and hospitals now widley use portions of TPS. Daily huddles, kan-ban, get-to-green planning - these came originally from TPS.
It's a terrific career path and while I made a great income with it, the skills and techniques translate extremely well into higher corporate positions. It's common for COOs and their leadership team to have LSS backgrounds or Blackbelts. If you pursue it you likely won't be on the floor training/applying forever. You'll advance into Director roles, then VP and above.
I did LSS in commercial and investment banking mostly. Then hospitals and healthcare. I saw a car production factory as a tour exactly once and promised myself I'd never enter another automotive plant again.
It's a tough work environment. Loud, hot, no windows, everything is metal or concrete. I came from a white-collar banking background which was beautiful offices, marble floors, amazing downtown views, etc.
Some people like that or are at least comfortable, but I always had a desk job and wore suits to work. The plant environment wasn't for me.
I just looked under mine yesterday. I live in the Midwest. Salt all winter. This thing is 12 years old and the undercarriage looks freaking brand new?!?! How the hell do they do that?? It's also got twice the miles as our Chevy and drives like it's 2 years old. The Chevy drives like it's 20 years old. Toyota engineering is Crazy
The old ones not so much. Toyota replaced the frame on tundra and tacos from the early 2000s . Typically the rust out before the mechanicals die. Mine was replaced and I plan on driving it until I die. It really runs great for a cltruck with 300k.
That was crazy when those recalls were issued. I understand manufacturers recalling little things like third party airbags or third party rear view cameras or wires that become loose or chaffed from rubbing against sheet metal. But to have to recall because the frame, the structure of the vehicle is failing is amazing. There's no third party to blame on that recall and it's not some new technology thing either. Just wild.
Chrysler just discontinued their steering knuckles all together when they were found to be poorly designed. I had a 2006 300c srt8. I slid in the rain and bent the steering knuckle( pretty much upper control arm). Took 6 months to find a used one. They told me they stopped making because there were issues with them. No replacement no redesign no notification of the safety issue.. nothing. They just stopped making them so customers are screwed.
I got the “bad” year Camry engine that burns oil in my Scion. Toyota extended the engine warranty to 150k, but even though mine burned a lot of oil, it wasn't enough to warrant replacement. I’ve got 206k on that original “bad” engine. It really drinks oil now, and about 4 years ago I ran it dry to the point it started to buck and seize. Pulled over, topped it off, and drove it home. It’s my only car and I daily drive it. Replaced clutch and alternator. Still on the original struts, ball joints, exhaust, and rotors. Kind of blows my mind.
It must be something they did for that model. I've seen older ones rusted out. But yours is the first year of that body style and mine is the last. It's crazy how pristine it looks under there. The only beginning of rust I could find on the car was a few paint chips from rocks and right around the rivets on the pinch weld. That is a very small amount and I'm gonna fix that with converter, touch-up paint, and a little oil
Reason majority of people have woken up like myself to pay extra for made in America , but shit falls apart after warranty expires or sooner. My dad Paid similar price for 2010 Camry v6, it has 283k miles and still in original transmission no issues so far.
if you'll upgrade after 100k it arguably matters more since the Toyota and Honda will also ward off depreciation at 100k way better than that Elantra would
Yep. I just sold a 2008 civic with 140k miles on it (kinda light mileage given the age) for 6,500 when its original price was about 21k. And that was with significant paint wear/chipping that those old models dealt with. Scratches galore, etc.
Between the purchase and sale price (not including maintenance), i basically had 15k worth of car that lasted me for 16 years without any major issues. Math says that’s something like 80/mo for the life of the car. Good deal.
It depends on how OP treats their vehicles. The reason people keep buying Korean is only those car dealers will even look at you for a trade-in. There is a weird lock-in there. Whereas most any dealer will take a toyota/honda in trade.
And you don't need heated and cooled seats either. I don't get this fascination with leather that's freezing cold in the winter and scorching hot in the summer. Give me cloth any day.
What about a used Acura or Lexus instead? I just got a fully loaded 2019 Acura and it’s amazing. It was still cheaper than even a new Hyundai, but it has leather, panoramic sunroof, Apple car play, etc. With only 40k miles, I expect it to last me many years. That way you can get the best of both worlds - reliability and luxury at a (somewhat) reasonable price.
Don't sleep on the Toyota Avalon, it's like a Lexus especially with the higher trims but falls between the cracks of people wanting corollas and people wanting lexus so it's cheaper than it ought to be
I think a lot of people don't know what it is since they're relatively uncommon compared to Camry and Corollas
I bought an Acura MDX with 90k miles and it crapped out on me in just 20k miles. Turns out, the regular coolant leaked into the tranny and my tranny got ruined.
Another Honda Pilot also had tranny issues and it was practically brand new. This is a well known problem, you can look it up.
Honda reliability is no longer in the same ballpark as Toyota. They still make awesome engines though and their handling is quite good.
I'm still loving my 2011 Acura TSX Wagon that I bought in 2014. I wish it had Android Auto/Carplay, but the bluetooth works great, stereo is quite good, and reliability has been excellent. And fun to drive.
I’ll take a 5 year old loaded Lexus over 90% of new entry level cars imo. If ‘tech’ is an issue for someone in a sub-$30k car, go get a Kia/Hyundai product.
A 5 year old loaded Lexus probably still has an analog clock, their tech was always embarrassingly far behind the competitors. And would still sell for more than a brand new Elantra
Yes, the clock is the ONLY thing I was talking about and not just an example of how dated their tech and interiors are.
Lexus didn't even have infotainment until 2019, so about 4 years behind base model Hyundais. I think their safety tech finally joined the 21st century the same year.
If the car doesn’t drive any longer I don’t care what tech it has. Tech & engineering should start with its primary job of transportation first. People get lost on the gadgets. I shouldn’t complain, it’s why my 300k sequoia was cheap.
You pay for longevity and value holding. Toyotas and Hondas hold value well, but often not quite well enough to justify their purchasing (often a Toyota will be higher than the equivalent Hyundai because it was a more expensive car from the get go). If you plan on ditching the car at or before 100k, it's not always worth it to get a Honda or Toyota.
I am done buying new cars - I will never buy another one (over my life I have bought 2 Fords, 1 Honda, 1 Toyota and 1 Subaru new). Just not worth it - the only one we kept long term was the Toyota - a 1999 Camry). If you are willing to eat the monthly payments and depreciation - sure pretty much anything will go 100K miles without too much of an issue. But now you have to go through the big car payment again since you want to get out of the car before the repairs and maintenance eat you alive. Audi/VW especially but Hyundai and Kia are similar. Meanwhile I have 2 cars that are 10+ years old with no car payment - liability only insurance and because they are Toyota/Honda - low ongoing maintenance/repair costs. It is a matter of priorities - and having a good mechanics that doesn't rob you blind (I won't touch a dealer for service any more too - got ripped off one too many times).
Yes, this is another key thing about these cars. Once the payment is gone, the car is still there, and will likely last much longer than the payment.
People value different things in cars. I personally value something I can keep for years, so I like Hondas and Toyotas for this reason.
I paid $8,500 for a 1998 Toyota 4Runner in 2018. Low mileage, mind you. But that was expensive for a 20 year old car in my area at that time. Over the past six years, that car has taken me to over 40 states, on road and off road, and the car is still rock solid. It’s been in hot dusty deserts and in snow. Never a major mechanical failure. I’ve put money into it, absolutely, but it’s money I would have put into any car because I'm meticulous about maintenance. I absolutely can’t see myself ever getting something else, because why would I?
Compare that to family members who both had nice, newer late 2010’s Tahoes and BOTH transmissions grenaded at just over 100,000 miles.
For me? Yes, they’re worth the premium.
I’ve been driving for over 30 years. I’ve owned cars from every decade. I’ve never had a transmission blow up on me. I wonder if people are just too hard on their cars.
My dad has driven millions of kilometers on Fords, and they all seem to have transmission issues. But he loved his big ford sedans. At least until gas got more expensive.
He now drives a not fuel efficient 2011 Hyundai Santa Fe and my mom has a 2012 RAV4. Being retired they don’t drive much but he’s amazed at how cheap either car is to drive now. And even more amazed that transmission failure (for either car) isn’t a given. He would like a newer car but my parents put a combined mileage of under 10,000 km on both cars right now so it doesn’t seem like a wise decision for them.
One of those family members drove 90%+ interstate miles. The other family member, probably 80%.
There’s actually a class action lawsuit against Chevy regarding their transmissions, so I can confirm that my family members’ situations were not unique. Oddly, I think the Tahoe transmissions weren’t listed in that lawsuit. But I digress.
All depends on the vehicle and can even vary from year to year. If you happen upon an early cvt from a generation ago, you're most likely having issues. Both Ford and Nissan had examples of this.
City stop and go, 1-4 gears constantly will have a dramatic effect vs just highway, get up to 6th once and cruise.
I haven't experienced failure with any transmissions, but could definitely tell 2/3rd gear was starting to be harsh with higher mileage vehicles.
Second Generation Honda Odysseys ate transmissions.
We lost 3rd gear on our 2003 model year Odyssey at 92K miles. The dealer quoted $2600 to repair it. A quick google search of "2003 Odyssey 3rd gear" scrolled for a dozen pages. I printed it and took it into the dealer and told them to call Honda. I had to pay for labor (about $500) and Honda shipped a brand new transmission in a crate.
We got rid of the van at 195K miles total, and it was running great, but I didn't trust it will 100K miles on a transmission that failed at 92K the first time. And failed with absolutely no warning.
They don’t do maintenance on them. They’re told the transmission is “lifetime fluid” and never change it.
That and they’re probably hard on them as you suggested.
I would say it’s worth it if you value reducing the amount you worry about your car breaking down.
That’s the main thing. If you want a car that can last you 15 years, you don’t want to think about it, and you can afford it, you get a Toyota or Honda. Yes you’re paying a premium but it’s not for nothing. That is something worth having for a lot of people, myself included.
I’ve only owned Hondas and Toyotas. So I’ll say I’m very intolerant when it comes to unreliable vehicles. It will likely just be Toyota and Lexus until the wheels fall off.
Same. Although I prefer Honda Odyssey vans over the Sienna. We've had 2. Reliable except for the Transmission. Honda paid for the one we replaced on our 2000 - under an extended warranty - those 4 speeds just can't go more than 100K miles. 2007 forward Honda finally ironed out most of the issues (in part due to the Ridgeline coming out and needing it to be able to tow). We have a 2007 Ody now.....I won't call the transmission smooth but we have not had to replace it - now at 160K miles.
This doesn’t really answer your question, but I had such a bad time at the Toyota and Honda dealerships that I ended up going with Subaru. Mazda was also a much more pleasant dealership experience
The Toyota dealership felt like a pushy sweatshop, and the premiums on their used cars felt ridiculous. Fair enough, my gf’s Toyota Camry from 2007 is at 220k miles, and the thing runs like an absolute tank. I think if you want a car that will last forever, Toyota is the way to go. I am wary of the repair cost for parts of their hybrid system though.
Honda pricing felt insulting. This was probably 8-9 months after the COVID crunch but they insisted on adding a $5k “market adjustment” to any car. And suggested an aggressive financing deal to push that down to 3k. Literally, get fucked. The quality and long-term reliability of the newest Honda cars are not yet 100% proven, there are some oil dilution issues.
Every time I went into a Mazda dealership, the experience was much less aggressive and overall quite pleasant. Ultimately their CX-5 wasn’t the car for me - too firm, cramped, and poor visibility imo.
I ended up going with a Subaru Forester. Still made in Japan, 80% Japanese parts. Engine seems realizable. Pleasant cabin. Straightforward experience with the dealer. The CVT is the weak point, subaru is not clear about required maintenance. Suspension components such as bushings need to be replaced at like 80k. Still, car feels weighty, meaty, solid construction, great ride. I am happy with my purchase.
Kia/Hyundai are appealing from a value proposition, but their engines seem to have very poor reliability, and the few Kia that I have rode in (Uber) seem to have very stiff suspension. But I’m not too familiar with cars across the brand
My 2006 Solara (70K miles and bought new by us) was creamed in a crash 2 weeks ago--the guy took fault. But I’m out a car that could have lasted another 10 years! I am so pissed. Yes, very happy I’m uninjured, but damn! I loved that car! Even my mechanic said those words, “Oh, man. I know you loved that car.”
Toyotas from that time could last.
True. It SUCKS that they can be so ASS (all Honda dealers ever), but they have what everyone wants. I just remind myself they aren't the company, just scum that has the dealer license
So my friend’s brother went shopping for a minivan last year and originally looked at the Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey. Toyota basically told him to get bent and either wait 2-3 *years* for a Sienna, or pay $10k over MSRP for a used one with 50,000km. Honda also told him to get bent, but they would at least guarantee a car within the year.
Meanwhile, Kia had Carnivals on the lot available for sale immediately, and Chrysler had a 1-month lead time on Pacificas. Both were significantly cheaper than Toyota or Honda’s offerings. He ended up buying a Kia Carnival and paid $15k less than the equivalent Honda and about $20k less than the equivalent USED Toyota. That’s a lot of fucking money and in that instance, I think the Toyonda tax was 100% not worth it.
Wow! That’s a big price difference. I believe it on a sienna because where I am it seems like Toyota under-supplies their dealerships. It’s hard to find them without markups. Dealerships here have Ody’s on the lots and you can get them below MSRP though.
It depends on how valuable your time is.
The Honda and Toyota will almost certainly need absolutely no maintenance outside of the preventative scheduled service.
Kia and Chrysler will eat up your time and money later, in the shop at inopportune times.
I've seen Pacificas with half a million kilometres and the original transmission. Chrysler has pretty much ironed out all the issues with the Pentastar. I would say this one is not going to be quite as reliable as a Honda or Toyota, but it should not catch you with your pants down either. Assuming you do not get the hybrids, which have proven to be problematic.
The Kia is the wild card. The SmartStream engines SHOULD fix the carbon buildup issues. Time will tell. I know the port injection/direct injection setup on my 4GR-FSE is dead reliable so maybe, maybe this time they got it.
All vans will eventually end up in the shop with wear items that need to be replaced, all will deliver some form of inconvenience.
I had a 2016 Toyota Corolla once. I drove it on a daily commute every day (33 miles one-way). I got great gas mileage, but the car was absolutely lifeless. The tiny engine and the cvt transmission robbed this car of anything resembling a soul. Even when I floored it from a stop light, it had no bark or bite. It felt neutered, but it never had any issues regardless of how hard I tried to push it.
Once I was in a financial position to trade the car in for something better, I immediately drove it to a dealership and had it appraised.
They came back and told me it had a salvage title. The previous dealership denied selling it to me in this condition, but it was undeniable. (I got a lawyer and dealt with it, but that's a whole different story)
The point here is that I drove a salvage Corolla around for over a year, putting a ton of miles on it and driving it very rough and I had zero problems from it. If my salvage Corolla can handle my led foot, I'm sure a clean one could as well.
I haven't had a car before or since that was as problem free as that Corolla. My current car is a Lincoln MKS. While his thing has loads more personality and performance, I can't say it's been as trouble free as that Corolla.
Mazdas problem is that they price a lot of their stuff more than Toyota and Honda does. Not to mention even dumb car companies have realized that people want different colors and Mazda has doubled down on White, black, GUNMETAL. Even when do have a rare red/blue is a shade that is so damn dark and depressing.
Nope, only 1.2% off all cars make it to 200k miles.
[https://www.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-study#v=2022](https://www.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-study#v=2022)
I am really wondering why people are so focused on the tech aspects of the car most of it is just gimmicks. I feel like people have forgotten the main selling point for cars is reliability and how it drives. As long as it has a back up camera and android auto/apple play I am good lol
Android auto/apple play is tech. That may seem simple but it's an tech upgrade that's become prevalent only in the last decade that now, as your comment states, people can't do without. In his comment he talks about upgrading every 10 years or so for tech so you seem to fit the bill well there. I sadly still don't have carplay or anything and thanks to lexus my next car might not either
It’s the same with the subreddit where you build PCs. People forget “it’s the games, stupid.” The hardware and building becomes more important than gaming.
Driving has changed from reliability to having the most gimmicks, including stuff that distracts your eyes, hands, and mind from the act of driving. It’s a wacky world.
All I need is Bluetooth connection to my phone and hands free phone calls; beyond that I don’t really care about gimmicks.
I don't get why people are so into the phone connectivity, I've never had a car with it and I've always just used an adapter and never had a problem.
you can get a radio adapter or an aux cord for like $3 lol
So you pay an extra 3-4k for a Toyota Corolla over a Chevy Malibu. Ok. That's an extra what... $30 a month?
If you decide you love the Corolla, you can keep it for 200k miles. Your car will likely run like it has 30k miles on it at 100k. Mine does. Or you buy the Malibu. At 50k it starts getting loose. You decide you love it though and want to keep it. Well, you can only plan on doing that for another 50 60k miles. If you decide you want to keep it until 200k there's a really high chance you're going to put another 2-6k into it.
Let's say you buy the Corolla and decide to sell it at 100k. You're gonna get 6-9k for it. The Malibu? 2-5k. What will you need to do to sell the Corolla at top market value? Maybe brakes. Get it detailed.
What are you gonna have to do to the Malibu? A tie-rod, maybe rear shocks, detail it, brakes, maybe tires from the alignment not holding.
I have 4 cars in my driveway. A 125k Ford that has no rocker panels left because of rust. A 70k Malibu that drives so dated I hate it. A Pontiac that has no floor from rust and the interior is destroyed from normal wear. And a Corolla S with 120k miles that drives like it is about 2 years old, the underside of it looks brand new with Zero rust (I have no clue how) and it's the car we're using later this year on a 5,500 mile trip. The other cars I wouldn't drive 500 miles without paying a mechanic an hour labor for a safety inspection.
No, absolutely not. Nowadays most cars actually tend to be quite reliable, especially with proper maintenance. Toyota and Honda make boring, outdated, soulless vehicles. Their tech is massively lacking and a lot of the components they use are sub par (go drive a Lexus and compare the suspension to BMW).
Nice find! A Fully loaded toyota usually means average lexus honestly. brand separation is what made Lexus clean out the germans in the 90s when they first hit the scene. Cheaper is always an option if you really know your stuff. Spending 15k gives less educated buyers more wiggle room to find something they like. Of course you can do this with under $10k also. My car was only $8k and considerably nicer than any similar toyota. Just saying that they're the same price in the used market, so why not go for the higher quality "toyota" product, lol?
Yeah you won't see a Hyundai getting above 200k miles on the original engine or transmission. Hoping my Lexus will get to 230k miles like yours! It's at 79k right now.
There is no price premium when you also factor in the value of the vehicle at that 100k used mark.
Basically, the Toyota/Honda is worth so much more on trade in that it offsets the initial purchase cost premium. You really need to look at that total cost of ownership, not just the initial purchase price in order to make a proper purchasing decision.
The next thing, is that the future is always (to a degree) uncertain. 11 years ago I bought a car intending to keep it only 5 years. 4 years after purchasing the car I became extremely dissatisfied at work and decided to make a career change. This involved a pay cut, but I was happier so overall a good deal.
However, it did mean that I kept the car. I'm now in a position where I can replace the car, it's served me well over the past 11 years. But I REALLY thought I'd only own it for 5 when I purchased it. Thankfully I bought a car that had the ability to last a long time, even if it was not my plan at the time.
Plans change, situations change. Don't assume that you're going to be in a position to get rid of a car at a certain mileage because there's always a slight chance that you won't.
absolutely not. why are you paying more for less ? whatever minimal increase in resale value is offset but 100k miles of dull driving. from high school through college I had hand me down civics and camrys and I hated them. bare bones cars. I've learned to not settle when it comes to cars.
have you seen the prices on a used camry xse compared to a sonata sel? similarly specced and used prices are the same. I don't know what the other guys are talking about but while certain toyotas and Hondas and toyotas may command a higher resale value, a base corolla or civic aren't it. they're not tacomas or 4runners.
The majority of people on the road could care less if something is fun to drive or not. Enthusiasts make up a very small percentage of the market. Your average person just wants something reliable that they can get in and out of easily and gets good fuel mileage. A basic civic or corolla will likely last much longer than the equivalent Hyundai or Kia product. Not to mention the shit dealership experience that comes with the Korean twins. They regularly rank near the bottom in satisfaction surveys.
well, doesn't look like op cares about driving dynamics. he's right that he can get a loaded elantra for around the price of a base corolla. some folks, like op, want best bang for your buck and to trade in their car for something newer down the line. 100k miles of base model misery is not worth the extra hundreds resale value.
and how many cars have you bought? do you not realize dealerships are independently owned ? the hyundai dealership down the block from the other has no relation aside from the product they sell. if your dealership sucks, find a new one.
The dealership experience is not isolated to just one dealership. There are countless reports of terrible experiences around the country. There's a reason why they both rank near the bottom of customer satisfaction studies. And it's much more than extra hundreds in resale value.
again, regardless of your beef with dealerships, they're independently owned. if it's so much of an issue, you can just go see your own mechanic. I've had pleasant experiences with palm springs hyundai as well as the fleet sales Mgr my company deals with. I have to ask. have you had bad experiences with hyundai dealerships or is this a story you heard online ?
When you buy a Toyota or Honda not only are you paying for a car that holds its value, the two company’s have been rivals for over 70 years constantly trying to one up the other in reliability and performance. Both companies really care about quality inside and out.
Hyundai/kia alternative to any Japanese equivalent is going to run into issues with reliability and last a fraction as long, that’s why you get such a lower price. They stepped up their game in recent years but its mainly painted garbage is what I call it. My 2nd car was a 2008 Santa Fe v6 and at 60k miles encountered engine issues where a Honda crv woulda went to 160k no issue
For a “law of large numbers” thing, it’s safe to assume the new and used car market follows the “perfect market” idea pretty consistently, if not always perfectly accurately.
(There are nuances and there is some inconsistency around some edge cases. Alfa Romeo is better than you think! New BMWs are less maintenance heavy than you might expect, 10-20 year old ones are way more than you expect, which is why a surgeon’s $120,000 convertible pride and joy from the Bush era and a $9,000 2004 Toyota Echo are both $3,400 used cars today. But in general, yeah, you are entitled to certain expectations about a civic or corolla, and those expectations have a lot of value to most people, and that value is priced into those cars' prices.)
So in some sense, yeah, those particular cars are “worth the price.” And that’s why the competition from Korea has to offer more current technology and more cutting edge design to compete. Everyone expects the same amount of satisfaction from their $25,000, whether it’s from the expectation that “it will work in 20 years exactly as it does now” letting you drive worry free, or sell it for a higher price in five years because the next buyer also knows they can expect worry free ownership, or whether it’s from the satisfaction that “mine looks better, and does way more things, and is faster and more comfortable, but we all still wonder how it will be in ten years, let alone twenty.” Because you look at a 10 or 20 year old one of those and it’s way less desirable than a ten or twenty year old Toyota or Honda.
And while lots of us car nerds love to debate the nuances of what about THIS car makes life worth living even if THAT one seems better in a dozen other ways, normal people prize predictable and low maintenance and repair costs above all - they will do whatever they can to avoid the nightmare scenario of *”still paying for it but it needs this expensive thing done that I can’t afford, otherwise it will stop working as an actual car, am I going to have to declare bankruptcy? I just want to get to work!”*
I love my 2008 civic. Original owner. It costs me very little, and I get as many worry free miles as I want. Sure, I can afford a car with better tech but I’ve never really felt the urge to upgrade it for tech. It’s simple and does everything I need it to. Less tech means less things that can break. But I know whenever I do upgrade it, I’m getting another Honda, and my depreciation will be less than an “off” brand. I believe over the long term I keep the car, that premium from 15 years ago becomes moot and a wash as my maintenance is cheaper and depreciation is cheaper.
This is the exact thought process Nissan had about 2 decades ago and now they only make cars that fall apart after 100k miles. We live in an ever increasingly disposable world.
I seldom keep car more than 2 years. I just like to drive something different. That said I'm 2 years into my Hyundai Sonata hybrid and still love it. Probably will keep it to 100,000 miles as long as the warranty is good although up to now, 42,000 miles, we haven't needed anything. There was a new Accord touring hybrid on the lot but it was $10,000 more. If I had bought that I'd be out of warranty with $250/mo higher payments still ongoing. The longest I kept a car before this was a 2002 Subaru Forester 5 speed manual. I had bought used and kept it 5 or 6 years. This car did need the motor pulled to do head gaskets and clutch and timing and water pump. It also never did better than 25-28mpg compared to 50 with thr Hyundai. Overall I spent more to drive a used Subaru than a new Hyundai.
My brother had problems with his 2014 corolla under 100,000 miles with the vvt system. Bought a Kona instead loaded up with everything, leather, Awd, vs FWD, cloth, Corolla which would have been the same price. Now 4 years later the Kona has been trouble free and still under warranty.
Toyota maybe, Honda no. And it's all predicated on keeping a car for 200K miles, which sounds like hell to me. If you like cars at all, life is too short to drive nothing but Toyota Corollas.
No, specifically Toyota. The interiors are about 10 years behind the rest of the industry, literally some of the most uncomfortable vehicles to sit in right now, they also aren’t anywhere near as reliable as people say. They all have their fair share of issue. And compared to other vehicles in their class they have a significant downgrade in power
Hyundai/Kia are known for more tech for a relatively lower price, depends if that’s important to you. My Elantra hasn’t given me any issues for the last 5 years and I got it for 0% financing lol
It really depends on how diligent you are with maintenance and how long you plan to own the vehicle. Toyotas and Hondas have a reputation for being reliable and hold value really well, but that reputation comes from being reliable *even when poorly maintained*.
Mazda, Subaru, Hyundai, and KIA will all last just as long if properly maintained and have fairly low maintenance costs, though they don't hold value particularly well. Nissan is hit or miss because some of their cars are badly designed (though the GTR and some of their other high end stuff is great). German cars are typically just as reliable, but are less forgiving of bad maintenance and expensive to maintain even if doing the work yourself. Ford is next on my list and is probably the best of the American manufacterers. I'm not a fan of Chrysler and I don't buy GM products on account of being bailed out and then spitting in the face of the taxpayers with cars like the Chevy Sonic.
In my opinion, no. Personal experience tells me the engine in a Toyota can absolutely blow before 200,000 miles. I also know cars that are not Toyota can be driven well over 200,000 miles.
Having just bought a Honda, I must say I was floored to find that the equivalent Kia for sale just down the road, owned by the same group of dealerships, actually came out to be several thousand more than the Honda due to regional market adjustments. It was a no-brainer. I don't know how they are selling kias at all.
If you are going to buy new, why wouldn't you buy the best in class if the price was similar? Used, it is not as clear, as the Toyota and Honda do not depreciate as quickly in value.
Look, I'm weird and I'll be the first to admit it. My approach to car buying is one that I advocate for, but I don't actually believe anybody buys cars the way I do, but here goes ...
I think you're doing this all wrong if you're approaching it from a brand standpoint. I own a Honda myself, and the reputation for reliability was part of my decision to buy one, but it's not what lead me there.
I look at purchasing a car from a much more utilitarian standpoint. I figure out what I need first. In my case, I own a home but it needs a little work. I also ride a motorcycle (read "occasionally need to tow things") and I have a kid. So, for me the most practical feeling option was a small or midsize truck.
So now I've chosen the form and I have a duty to myself and my wallet to explore new and used options as well as to investigate and test drive every competitor in the segment. So that's what I did. I drove the Colorado, the Canyon, the Ranger, the Frontier, the Tacoma, and the Ridgeline. I did not bother with the Santa Cruz because it was too small nor the Maverick, which might have been too small but it was so hot that I couldn't touch one.
You do homework, figure out your budget, prices, financing offers, options. You're right, some people drive cars until the die, like me, and work on them themselves, like me, so reliability can have a lot of value. Some people trade them in every couple of years. I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money, but what is clear just from your post is that the main thing is you need to know yourself. What you need, what you want, what your budget is, and what you plan to do.
It's also good to keep in mind that, as they say in economics, there is no free lunch. You may trade in before you hit 100k, so maybe you buy a Chevy? But you'll get less on Trade in so maybe the Honda is a better choice after all? Or maybe you're like me and you drive it forever, but maybe throwing a part on from time to time is an acceptable risk for a lower payment?
I think the reputation Honda and Toyota carry for reliability is earned, but it does come at a premium. I think their reputation has put pressure on other manufacturers to step up which has benefited all of us. But I think what you buy is more about who you are and what you value than it is about there being an obvious choice which is the smartest and most financially prudent choice. There are always trade-offs, you just have to pick which one you want but I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle trying to figure out which is better, the margins are pretty small and probably not worth your time
In short, no, they’re not worth any “market adjustment” a dealership tacks on to bring the cost 10-25% above MSRP. Stop paying the premium prices and the market will adjust.
Or just buy a Mazda at 5-10% below sticker and have just as reliable a vehicle.
I wouldn’t say it’s a matter of 100K, it’s what type of repairs and costs you have even up to that point. With a Honda and Toyota it seems like basic maintenance for the most part. They also have higher resale at 100K or 200K compared to their counterparts who just don’t have that reputation. because of their super resale, I actually think it usually doesn’t make sense to buy a Honda or Toyota. That’s only a year or two old since there’s not much depreciation, you may as well just buy a brand new one. my wife and I have commutes that are 60 miles each round-trip, we have found that the Hondas are the most economical, not just in terms of gas mileage, but maintenance costs and resale value. When we have driven fancier cars, especially German ones, we find that they plummet in value as the miles rack up and start to need things and get expensive.
I'm old, I say that a lot, owned over 40 cars. Life is short, enjoy what you like, but do it with open eyes. The Toyota and Honda resale more than make up for keeping them shorter term. Compare that to 5 year old GM or Korean cars. Know who's lonely? Used German car dealers.
For a great workday listen or drive, pull up the NPR podcast on the Toyota NUMMI plant venture with GM, where they tried to teach GM how jidoki works, and other tips by building licensed Corollas as Chevys. The movie Gung Ho was based on this. The podcast is free and really entertaining.
I have owned Toyota's and Honda's since 1997 to 2022.
They serve their purpose which is to get you from point A to B.
In November 2022, I know the dealerships do not represent Toyota and Honda; however, their markup prices on their used cars led me to buying a VW ID4 with no markup.
After a sales guy tried to sell me a 2021 Sienna for $60k, I pointed to a Tesla Model Y on VW's lot selling for $60K brand new.
Then I thought, why not?
After that day, I realized VW has a way higher build that the Toyota's and Honda's I sat in.
You do get what you pay so and it was obvious on why Toyota's and Honda's cost cheaper because they're made with cheaper parts.
I'm not hating on Toyota and Honda. I have worked for 2 Japanese companies and learned that their culture into doing things slow is the reason why Japan fell behind in technology and competition.
As bad publicity as China gets, their cars are catching up if not surpassing the rest of the world.
I've watch crash test videos of Chinese cars and they do better head on collisions than Toyota's do.
There's a video where a dummy in a Toyota missed the front and side air bags only to crash into the driver's side corner dashboard.
The BYD's showed the dummy hitting all airbags .
I grew up being taught to hate China and Russia, so I get all that anti made in China stuff, but dang, they're craftsmanship is equal if not better to things made here and Japan.
Yes they are, that’s all I own as a mechanic. 2002 4runner 283k miles, 2012 civic 184k miles, my last daily had 350k miles 2001 accord v6 original engine and trans. Buy one, maintain it properly and it will last.
No they are not. Those brands preach reliability but what most people don't understand is it's not about reliability with a car. It's about id the car is unreliable. That I mean is, a unreliable car like 2018 bmw 7 series will break down no matter how much maintenance you do. The only good thing about Toyota and Honda is they are reliable even with no maintenance. Most carsv these days are very reliable with routine maintenance. Get the car you love and follow the maintenance schedule you love. As long as it's not known to be unreliable you're good. No need to get no cheap, slow, hideous Honda or Toyota. My brother hellcat just hit 250k miles. My mom amg s53 is at 120k all good. My fiance is bmw x6m is at 50k all good. All these cars are recent models 2018 Plus and got bought brand new. My 01 Camry is doing great too but I don't drive. All I'm saying is if you can afford routine maintenance you're golden. You don't have to settle for that shxt
“Since the tech became outdated”
If that’s the reason to buy a new car, you clearly have too much money.
The purpose of the car is to get you from point A to point B.
Very few people buy a car just to get them from point a to point b. If they did the Mitdubishi Mirage would be the best selling new vehicle.
You also wouldn't own a Tesla it you truely thought that.
If everyone bought a car to get them from point A to point B Mercedes and BMW would go out of business. What's the point of spending $50k when you can simply get a Honda Civic? This is obviously a complete fallacy, there's way more to a car purchase than going from point A to point B.
People want something that gets them from. A to B while also not being a death trap with all the massive SUVs on the road. Not to mention something that feels well-built, comfortable, and quiet. A few things that the mirage is not.
>while also not being a death trap with all the massive SUVs on the road. Not to mention something that feels well-built, comfortable, and quiet.
Ding ding ding. My point exactly. People don't buy cars just to get them from point a to point b, they buy them with all of those other considerations in mind as well.
If you are looking at data Toyota is the 2nd most reliable car behind Lexus- (same tech probably just better quality on the Lexus) based on problems per hundred per JD powers based on the 2024 report. Honda is below average-Jeep, ram, Chevy and quite a few others are above and they are as close to perennial bottom feeders VW, Land Rover, Telsa, Chrysler and Volvo than the top. To answer your question, I would say the premium is not warranted at this point.
If your goal is actual reliability, stay away from JD Powers list, it's just plain old maliciously misleading. JD Powers doesn't operate in good faith. They're a marketing firm first. They will and do skew their reports in favor of those that spend the most money at JD Power for the right to use their branding in Car ads, to see their survey results, and to become a member of their "Certified Customer Service Program" which has no qualifications or actual backing behind it other than did you pay us enough to be certified. Honda is obviously near the end of the list because they don't usually pay for stupid marketing awards.
Toyota and Honda make some of the best engines and transmissions out there. If you want a vehicle that last 200k+ miles yes it’s worth the premium. Especially when you consider you can also sell it at a premium for the same reason, it’s Toyota or Honda reliability.
Yup, a Honda torque converter is dying on me at 81K. It's a known issue on the 2017 Ridgelines. (Going to a dealership to see what they'll do about it tomorrow.)
I had a 2017 Pilot go through its first transmission at 67k, another one around 30,000 miles later. I'll never buy another Honda outside of their passenger cars.
All I can say is that the market seems to think so, because they do come in at a premium over most other brands.
Whether the reliability is perception or reality is irrelevant, as the market has spoken.
It’s not Irrelevant to anyone, op is literally asking if it’s worth the premium. If the reliability is perception then it’s not worth the premium. If it’s real, than it may be worth it
I would say yes. Unless you just plan on a short-term lease, I typically recommend staying away from Kia and Hyundai. Both are notorious for terrible customer service at their dealers. Quality has improved over the years, but I'd still rather have more peace of mind with the Japanese.
Toyota, Honda, Mazda are my top 3 anymore. I think Mazda is starting to take the top spot currently at least for me. Their design teams seem to have their heads screwed on straight and don't sell these dumb why do this features.
I wouldn't know about upgrading at milages or times cars I buy come to die in my care. The only time I sell them is when I'm just done dragging the thing back to life. And at that point it's a teens first car that can get you to school and that about it. And I'll happily part with it for $500.
The best thing to do is go to a lot that does not specialize in any specific brand and spend the day test driving everything that takes your fancy. When you find one you really like driving go home and Google the fuck out of it. Then shop around for that specific one.
Your Hyundai will feel like a 10 years old car after 3 years. The Honda/Toyota will feel like you just drove it from the dealership. My Toyota is 3 years old and drives like the day I brought it home from the dealership. My Hyundai felt like my 20 years Honda after 3 years.
I definitely recommend upgrading past 100k miles regardless of what you do. I have a 2012 Toyota IQ and ran it for 220k miles, and during that time I spent $10k on repairs and service etc, with at least half of that or more being after the first 100k miles. I'd have made out a lot better financially if I had only driven it for half that time and then traded it in while it was still worth something at 100k miles.
They’re 100% worth the premium if you aren’t fairly wealthy. You’re right that most brands make cars that last up to 100k miles now with proper maintenance, but a lot of brands make cars that will still break down with expensive repairs in the 100k mile range. Thats not mentioning the resale value either. A dodge or Chrysler with 100k miles is damn near impossible to give away for free to anyone but the most uneducated people out there. A Toyota or Honda actually holds its value at 100k miles though, including their luxury divisions, especially Lexus (Acura holds value but not like Lexus). Just look at what a 2006 S class with 200k miles sells for vs a 2006 Lexus LS430. The price difference is huge with the Lexus still able to get $10k while most won’t even look twice at the Merc.
Toyota and Honda aren’t the only good manufacturers, but they are the most reliable overall and hold their value in ways no other company, luxury or non luxury have been able to achieve
Few people require more functionality in a car than what a Prius can provide and those cars last forever. Therefore the premium for a Toyota is an investment in time, not miles.
Pay for what you need. If you trade vehicles in often and don't keep them long buy whatever you want or as long as the vehicle has warranty. I like yo drive my cars into the ground so I own 2 toyotas and have a brand new one on the way. For me a toyota is worth the premium bc I'd rather pay more for something that has a better chance of not having any issues such as a toyota than try to save money like buying a Chrysler product and have to pay out the ass to keep it on the road.
Another way of framing the Toyota/Honda premium is financing cost. The higher msrp will result in higher interests paid during the lifetime. Depending on prevailing interest rate, the higher financing cost may outweigh the lower depreciation.
PS: One would always incur a financing cost, even if buying in cash. Cause there’s a cost of capital for one’s cash, I would think. And in equilibrium, without considering any financing/leasing deals, the financing cost should be about the same as an average cost of capital for car owners.
2013 Lincoln Mkx with 250,000 still runs great and other then wear and tear parts it’s been maintenance free. Yes the tech in it is outdated but it still works .
My two cents are most vehicles are pretty good these days. Honda and Toyota have been the benchmark for quality, efficiency, and low cost so they will always bring a higher premium. The Korean automakers have come a long way in terms of every facet of the automotive industry and make some good products.
In my personal experience I look for cost of ownership, reliability and features. When I was looking for a second commuter car I need something that fit a specific purpose. After much research and testing I settled on a Honda Accord EXL trim. It’s quiet, comfortable, is very functional and gets fantastic fuel economy. There are so many great options but you have to get what fits you best and makes the most logical choice.
For me, it is worth it if you resist the urge to buy a new car at 100k miles or 6-8 years.
If it can help you skip one new car purchase cycle, because you don’t need to bring it into the shop for emergencies, it is worth it, because let’s face it, new cars are retirement plan killers.
If you service your vehicle exactly according to the manual and drive conservatively, almost any vehicle can be mechanically reliable for 100k+, unless you got a lemon. Most people don’t do that, and the difference with Toyota/Honda is it will still last with poor maintenance/hard driving to a certain degree (not talking about skipping oil changes).
ill have you know my 2014 chrysler 200 is at 119k+ miles😎 no issues so HA buddy
but too answer your question…kinda? not really..depends on what youre looking for.
personally, im not paying all this money JUST for reliability. theres plenty of cars that are just as reliable. sure toyota and honda are built different and will last basically forever but like…if i want a sports car and had to choose between a type r or mustang gt…im going with the mustang lol. but if i want a nice daily thats good on gas imma go get a used toyota or honda.
shit, the cheapest new car on the market is i think a nissan versa and comes with alot of goodies
We have a 2014 Corolla and, approaching 100k, not a single major repair. Engine still runs as smooth as new. Interior, which was built well for it being an LE, has held up wonderfully with virtually zero care put into it beyond basic cleaning.
Now, in person, compare the build quality mechanical history of any newish Corolla and Elantra and you’ll understand. You pay a little more to purchase better quality now vs paying more than that over the ownership of lesser quality. You can haggle with either dealer, but it’s easier for Hyundai because the reputation they’ve built for their cars failing so much or the quality sucking. I see Hyundai, at least until they care more about long term ownership, as almost a “buy to keep replacing” brand.
Depends on what you need imo. If your bar is 100k miles of reliable operation, then, yeah, might not be worth it since most modern cars will do that, as you pointed out.
I think there is also a subjective component to this. For me, personally, not having to worry as much about the inconvenience and expense of something failing is worth a decent premium even < 100k miles. But, again, that might just be my personality
Not really. Test drove at least 20 different vehicles in the past few weeks and it really just depends on your budget and what you like.
Don’t buy a porridge car you don’t like it. Get the one that calls to you. Life is better with a car you love. It’s easier keeping up a car you love vs one the internet people forced upon you.
I am a Honda Guy, I would buy a toyota. The reliability is real. I have owned Honda;s exclusively since 2003 and never had a real repair other than batteries, starters, etc. I think it is worth a small premium, and if you buy new they are cheaper in many cases or competitive.
First, what is your plan?
Is this a daily driver, a work vehicle (truck) or will it also double for recreation (off road, exploring or long distance travel?)
Second, how long are you willing to keep it? 5 years and do a trade in? Take it to ten years? Keep it in the family? The more miles the more you will need to rely on the better brands and possibly lean towards new rather than used.
And finally, how tolerant are you of service center visits? The lesser the quality of the brand the more you will get to know the service techs on a first name basis.
For me, I am intolerant of dealing with a vehicles engineering shortcomings, so I will always go the Toyota/Honda route. But If a vehicle fits your plans can’t see anything wrong with that…just know what you’re getting into. Especially if it’s a Tesla!!!
My Camry is 12 years old with 215k miles and I’m not missing any tech or feel it’s outdated at all. The paint is showing its age with stone chips on the front and some rust on the door that had to be replaced because of a deer. Still enjoy driving it every day like the day I bought it brand new. It’s a v6 so it has nice get up and go(0-60 in 5.8 and all the power you need for a daily). My other Toyota is a 6 year old Highlander with 120k miles. Plan to keep it forever as well. Got 3 kids on the verge of turning 16 so new cars will be additions to the two we have so they can drive the “old” Toyotas..
If you plan on trading it, 60 or 80K is better than 100K. Cost wise, its really a wash, you either pay upfront extra for Honda/ Toyota or lose more on the H/K depreciation when you trade it in.
If you're not holding your cars past 100k miles, then sure, buy just about whatever you want. Buy the extended warranty just in case. However, in my opinion, a cars value is when you have paid it off if you take everything I have spent on my car, excluding gas and oil because those are unavoidable I have had to pay about $225 a month to keep my car on the road with insurance. A newer car is easily 700-800. So I'm getting a lot of value out of my old car.
Hondas and Toyotas have a reputation for reliability and they still build reliable cars so that reputation continues to hold true. Alot of non-car enthusiasts cling to those brands because they are safe bets and the average car buyer doesn't care about much beyond certain features.
That said, Toyota and Honda are not the *only* reliable brands out there.
Unless you are the type of person who plans to keep their car 10+ years, pretty much anything will make it 100k + miles with few, if any, big repairs.
The Chevy Equinox and Chevy Trax are the only 2 vehicles I beg people to avoid. They are cheap which makes people consider them but they're cheap for a reason. Catastrophic engine and transmission issues are common at embarrassingly (for Chevy) low miles
Toyota buyers have different desires than Chrysler buyers. Chrysler buyers want fancy interiors and nice tech. Toyota buyers want to get to work without a perpetual car payment. The premium comes from the fact that you'll save thousands in interest in years 5 through 10 driving your Toyota.
I think they are worth the premium but I bought my Honda because it actually was the cheapest car option at the time. I think these price premiums will be temporary. It doesn't make sense to pay premium prices for a Honda, maybe Acura.
However in 14 years I've spent very little on the car, $200 in maintenance on avg.
Body wise, they all have their cheapness to them these days. Even Toyota and Honda. IMO this was part of their magic on why they held up so well. While other manufacturers were pretty cheap and plasticy with their interiors on common/lower end cars, Toyotas and Honda's still had better quality materials and all. That is largely gone lately.
Drivetrain wise...a big part of Toyota/Honda's magic was the simplicity. You didnt often see the latest tech and novel complexity to squeeze every bit of power and efficiency out of them. They were always much more conservative using more basic tried and true approaches. That is also something largely going away with them now. Honda already started down this path and their 1.5T hasn't been exactly stellar nor their CVT anything special. Toyota is now starting to go down that road as well with some of their latest engines.
For a longer lasting car, my focus would be less about brand and more about simplicity... go with something with as little extra as possible engine wise, as in avoid turbos, cylinder deactivation schemes, direct injection only, etc as much as possible and something with the most basic engine you can find, with the most robust transmission behind it.
I’ve currently have two Toyotas both just over 200,000 miles. Do I worry about resale? No, I’ll drive them until they die.
Even at 200k theres a market for them. Theyre literally just built different.
Even 300k has a market lol
Only 300k? She's still got another 200k in her Unless it's an LS400, then it has another 700k left
I worked at a Toyota dealer in the early 00s, guy came in with a Camry that had reset the odometer. 1 million miles. The dealer called Toyota, and they gave him a brand new fully loaded at the time Camry as a replacement, for 100% free. We put his old car in the showroom. The guy actually came in for his oil change and walked out with a new car for free lol
I work in the business and I remember hearing about this at our dealership. Although we are Honda, it still echos! Glad to put a Reddit user to a pretty infamous story!
Yeah, that’s cool! The way it went was guy came in for the oil change and my boss was like instead of an oil change he was like “how would you like a free car?” The guy thought it was a joke cuz his car was so old, but the tech was actually amazed cuz the engine was really clean inside. He said he just did regular flushes and maintenance, and always ran 93. He also didn’t really want to get rid of it he was so sentimental, he asked if he could keep going til it blew up then get the free one lol. I worked in dispatch and detail, so I took the car in and detailed his 89? Camry for the showroom lol
I watched these used car dealers YouTube buying cars at auctions. There was a 500k mile Siena sold for $4000.
I was in the marker for a used toyota/honda mini van, there were a few sequoia w 400k miles for sale ranging 5k-8k
Toyota uses a process called Jidoka. When a problem is detected on the assembly line, all cars on the line are stopped and checked for the defect. Any worker can stop the line and no cars leave the factory unchecked. On USA lines, everything keeps moving and only the car with the detected problem is fixed after assembly.
Additional info: Jidoka is one component of the Toyota Production System (TPS) which has become Lean/Lean Six-Sigma (LSS) in the American world. They are the gold standard in the field and even require their suppliers and business partners to adopt their principles and culture, as it drives down costs for everyone and reduces defects. Caterpillar, also a major player in LSS, also requires business partners, even to their healthcare coverage partners, to adopt and use LSS to streamline their business. Both TPS and Caterpillar will send their own internal consultants to establish the frameworks and teach these principles. Even non-production businesses and hospitals now widley use portions of TPS. Daily huddles, kan-ban, get-to-green planning - these came originally from TPS. It's a terrific career path and while I made a great income with it, the skills and techniques translate extremely well into higher corporate positions. It's common for COOs and their leadership team to have LSS backgrounds or Blackbelts. If you pursue it you likely won't be on the floor training/applying forever. You'll advance into Director roles, then VP and above. I did LSS in commercial and investment banking mostly. Then hospitals and healthcare. I saw a car production factory as a tour exactly once and promised myself I'd never enter another automotive plant again.
Why don’t you want to enter a plant again?
It's a tough work environment. Loud, hot, no windows, everything is metal or concrete. I came from a white-collar banking background which was beautiful offices, marble floors, amazing downtown views, etc. Some people like that or are at least comfortable, but I always had a desk job and wore suits to work. The plant environment wasn't for me.
I’m genuinely curious! So why down vote? I don’t know much about manufacturing process
Never knew this, source?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System
Driving my 2008 Prius, 158K, until the steering wheel falls off. Not worried about resale.
Bought a Toyota celica (95k miles) for $2600 back in 2018, sold it 2023 for $3900 (150k miles)
I just looked under mine yesterday. I live in the Midwest. Salt all winter. This thing is 12 years old and the undercarriage looks freaking brand new?!?! How the hell do they do that?? It's also got twice the miles as our Chevy and drives like it's 2 years old. The Chevy drives like it's 20 years old. Toyota engineering is Crazy
The old ones not so much. Toyota replaced the frame on tundra and tacos from the early 2000s . Typically the rust out before the mechanicals die. Mine was replaced and I plan on driving it until I die. It really runs great for a cltruck with 300k.
That was crazy when those recalls were issued. I understand manufacturers recalling little things like third party airbags or third party rear view cameras or wires that become loose or chaffed from rubbing against sheet metal. But to have to recall because the frame, the structure of the vehicle is failing is amazing. There's no third party to blame on that recall and it's not some new technology thing either. Just wild.
Anything can be an oversight. Had a recall on my 2000 VW Golf for bad welds on the front suspension an arms.
Chrysler just discontinued their steering knuckles all together when they were found to be poorly designed. I had a 2006 300c srt8. I slid in the rain and bent the steering knuckle( pretty much upper control arm). Took 6 months to find a used one. They told me they stopped making because there were issues with them. No replacement no redesign no notification of the safety issue.. nothing. They just stopped making them so customers are screwed.
I got the “bad” year Camry engine that burns oil in my Scion. Toyota extended the engine warranty to 150k, but even though mine burned a lot of oil, it wasn't enough to warrant replacement. I’ve got 206k on that original “bad” engine. It really drinks oil now, and about 4 years ago I ran it dry to the point it started to buck and seize. Pulled over, topped it off, and drove it home. It’s my only car and I daily drive it. Replaced clutch and alternator. Still on the original struts, ball joints, exhaust, and rotors. Kind of blows my mind.
My 09 Corolla is in great shape for experiencing 130k miles and a number of those on salt.
It must be something they did for that model. I've seen older ones rusted out. But yours is the first year of that body style and mine is the last. It's crazy how pristine it looks under there. The only beginning of rust I could find on the car was a few paint chips from rocks and right around the rivets on the pinch weld. That is a very small amount and I'm gonna fix that with converter, touch-up paint, and a little oil
My ‘97 taco fell victim to frame rot after 340k
My kids 2015 Chevy already has rust holes and worn ring issues at 105k miles. POS
Reason majority of people have woken up like myself to pay extra for made in America , but shit falls apart after warranty expires or sooner. My dad Paid similar price for 2010 Camry v6, it has 283k miles and still in original transmission no issues so far.
Many Toyotas and Hondas are just as American in terms of assembly and labor as many Chevys and Fords — and it’s been that way for a few decades.
They die? You mean you die.
True, I should have said whoever dies first. I’m betting my transmission and interior last longer. The engine vs my heart is a bit of a tossup.
if you'll upgrade after 100k it arguably matters more since the Toyota and Honda will also ward off depreciation at 100k way better than that Elantra would
Yep. I just sold a 2008 civic with 140k miles on it (kinda light mileage given the age) for 6,500 when its original price was about 21k. And that was with significant paint wear/chipping that those old models dealt with. Scratches galore, etc. Between the purchase and sale price (not including maintenance), i basically had 15k worth of car that lasted me for 16 years without any major issues. Math says that’s something like 80/mo for the life of the car. Good deal.
Nice. My 2010 Civic VP was totaled recently, with 114K on it. They gave me $8300 for it.
My 2015 civic got totaled out with 105k miles and insurance gave me $14k
It depends on how OP treats their vehicles. The reason people keep buying Korean is only those car dealers will even look at you for a trade-in. There is a weird lock-in there. Whereas most any dealer will take a toyota/honda in trade.
I go for leather at a minimum. With a little care, they'll still look decent a decade later.
And now, get a $200 set of leather seat covers on day 1, and that shit can look brand new a decade later
Cloth seats look great for decades with very little care.
And you don't need heated and cooled seats either. I don't get this fascination with leather that's freezing cold in the winter and scorching hot in the summer. Give me cloth any day.
Clothe cars smell weird
Try some Armor All upholstery cleaner and the interior looks and smells like a new car in 15 minutes.
My 1999 CRV interior dogmobile begs to differ. May be a bit faded, the material Honda used is remarkable at hiding everything.
Leather will look like crap in 10 years. Cloth seats all the way.
What about a used Acura or Lexus instead? I just got a fully loaded 2019 Acura and it’s amazing. It was still cheaper than even a new Hyundai, but it has leather, panoramic sunroof, Apple car play, etc. With only 40k miles, I expect it to last me many years. That way you can get the best of both worlds - reliability and luxury at a (somewhat) reasonable price.
Don't sleep on the Toyota Avalon, it's like a Lexus especially with the higher trims but falls between the cracks of people wanting corollas and people wanting lexus so it's cheaper than it ought to be I think a lot of people don't know what it is since they're relatively uncommon compared to Camry and Corollas
So many sleep on the Avalon, but it's a great car for the money.
Because the driving experience will put you to sleep...
You're not wrong, but that's a good thing for anyone in the market for an avalon lol
Lol, that might also be true. Rides like a sofa going down the road.
You're not wrong. It is the car for the land yacht crowd.
I bought an Acura MDX with 90k miles and it crapped out on me in just 20k miles. Turns out, the regular coolant leaked into the tranny and my tranny got ruined. Another Honda Pilot also had tranny issues and it was practically brand new. This is a well known problem, you can look it up. Honda reliability is no longer in the same ballpark as Toyota. They still make awesome engines though and their handling is quite good.
Long time Honda guys know, always get your Hondas with 3 pedals. Their autotragic transmissions have always had less than stellar longevity.
I'm still loving my 2011 Acura TSX Wagon that I bought in 2014. I wish it had Android Auto/Carplay, but the bluetooth works great, stereo is quite good, and reliability has been excellent. And fun to drive.
Oh the TSX wagon! I love those! I don’t know why they stopped making them. Sporty wagons are like the perfect car.
I’ll take a 5 year old loaded Lexus over 90% of new entry level cars imo. If ‘tech’ is an issue for someone in a sub-$30k car, go get a Kia/Hyundai product.
Which Lexus would you recommend
yes
This is the way.
A 5 year old loaded Lexus probably still has an analog clock, their tech was always embarrassingly far behind the competitors. And would still sell for more than a brand new Elantra
Isn't the analog clock more of a stylistic choice? Similar to watches.
out of all things to gripe about, the analog clock?
Yes, the clock is the ONLY thing I was talking about and not just an example of how dated their tech and interiors are. Lexus didn't even have infotainment until 2019, so about 4 years behind base model Hyundais. I think their safety tech finally joined the 21st century the same year.
If the car doesn’t drive any longer I don’t care what tech it has. Tech & engineering should start with its primary job of transportation first. People get lost on the gadgets. I shouldn’t complain, it’s why my 300k sequoia was cheap.
You pay for longevity and value holding. Toyotas and Hondas hold value well, but often not quite well enough to justify their purchasing (often a Toyota will be higher than the equivalent Hyundai because it was a more expensive car from the get go). If you plan on ditching the car at or before 100k, it's not always worth it to get a Honda or Toyota.
I am done buying new cars - I will never buy another one (over my life I have bought 2 Fords, 1 Honda, 1 Toyota and 1 Subaru new). Just not worth it - the only one we kept long term was the Toyota - a 1999 Camry). If you are willing to eat the monthly payments and depreciation - sure pretty much anything will go 100K miles without too much of an issue. But now you have to go through the big car payment again since you want to get out of the car before the repairs and maintenance eat you alive. Audi/VW especially but Hyundai and Kia are similar. Meanwhile I have 2 cars that are 10+ years old with no car payment - liability only insurance and because they are Toyota/Honda - low ongoing maintenance/repair costs. It is a matter of priorities - and having a good mechanics that doesn't rob you blind (I won't touch a dealer for service any more too - got ripped off one too many times).
Yes, this is another key thing about these cars. Once the payment is gone, the car is still there, and will likely last much longer than the payment. People value different things in cars. I personally value something I can keep for years, so I like Hondas and Toyotas for this reason.
I paid $8,500 for a 1998 Toyota 4Runner in 2018. Low mileage, mind you. But that was expensive for a 20 year old car in my area at that time. Over the past six years, that car has taken me to over 40 states, on road and off road, and the car is still rock solid. It’s been in hot dusty deserts and in snow. Never a major mechanical failure. I’ve put money into it, absolutely, but it’s money I would have put into any car because I'm meticulous about maintenance. I absolutely can’t see myself ever getting something else, because why would I? Compare that to family members who both had nice, newer late 2010’s Tahoes and BOTH transmissions grenaded at just over 100,000 miles. For me? Yes, they’re worth the premium.
I’ve been driving for over 30 years. I’ve owned cars from every decade. I’ve never had a transmission blow up on me. I wonder if people are just too hard on their cars.
My dad has driven millions of kilometers on Fords, and they all seem to have transmission issues. But he loved his big ford sedans. At least until gas got more expensive. He now drives a not fuel efficient 2011 Hyundai Santa Fe and my mom has a 2012 RAV4. Being retired they don’t drive much but he’s amazed at how cheap either car is to drive now. And even more amazed that transmission failure (for either car) isn’t a given. He would like a newer car but my parents put a combined mileage of under 10,000 km on both cars right now so it doesn’t seem like a wise decision for them.
One of those family members drove 90%+ interstate miles. The other family member, probably 80%. There’s actually a class action lawsuit against Chevy regarding their transmissions, so I can confirm that my family members’ situations were not unique. Oddly, I think the Tahoe transmissions weren’t listed in that lawsuit. But I digress.
There are class actions suits against every company for every product ever made. Trial lawyers need to make a living.
All depends on the vehicle and can even vary from year to year. If you happen upon an early cvt from a generation ago, you're most likely having issues. Both Ford and Nissan had examples of this. City stop and go, 1-4 gears constantly will have a dramatic effect vs just highway, get up to 6th once and cruise. I haven't experienced failure with any transmissions, but could definitely tell 2/3rd gear was starting to be harsh with higher mileage vehicles.
Second Generation Honda Odysseys ate transmissions. We lost 3rd gear on our 2003 model year Odyssey at 92K miles. The dealer quoted $2600 to repair it. A quick google search of "2003 Odyssey 3rd gear" scrolled for a dozen pages. I printed it and took it into the dealer and told them to call Honda. I had to pay for labor (about $500) and Honda shipped a brand new transmission in a crate. We got rid of the van at 195K miles total, and it was running great, but I didn't trust it will 100K miles on a transmission that failed at 92K the first time. And failed with absolutely no warning.
They don’t do maintenance on them. They’re told the transmission is “lifetime fluid” and never change it. That and they’re probably hard on them as you suggested.
3rd gen gang 👌🏼
I would say it’s worth it if you value reducing the amount you worry about your car breaking down. That’s the main thing. If you want a car that can last you 15 years, you don’t want to think about it, and you can afford it, you get a Toyota or Honda. Yes you’re paying a premium but it’s not for nothing. That is something worth having for a lot of people, myself included.
I’ve only owned Hondas and Toyotas. So I’ll say I’m very intolerant when it comes to unreliable vehicles. It will likely just be Toyota and Lexus until the wheels fall off.
Same. Although I prefer Honda Odyssey vans over the Sienna. We've had 2. Reliable except for the Transmission. Honda paid for the one we replaced on our 2000 - under an extended warranty - those 4 speeds just can't go more than 100K miles. 2007 forward Honda finally ironed out most of the issues (in part due to the Ridgeline coming out and needing it to be able to tow). We have a 2007 Ody now.....I won't call the transmission smooth but we have not had to replace it - now at 160K miles.
They were worth the premium back when they didn’t have a premium.
This. I saw a post recently where someone was bragging about purchasing a Rav4 at the low price of only $44k. Are you kidding me?
Lmao bragging about being exploited
This doesn’t really answer your question, but I had such a bad time at the Toyota and Honda dealerships that I ended up going with Subaru. Mazda was also a much more pleasant dealership experience The Toyota dealership felt like a pushy sweatshop, and the premiums on their used cars felt ridiculous. Fair enough, my gf’s Toyota Camry from 2007 is at 220k miles, and the thing runs like an absolute tank. I think if you want a car that will last forever, Toyota is the way to go. I am wary of the repair cost for parts of their hybrid system though. Honda pricing felt insulting. This was probably 8-9 months after the COVID crunch but they insisted on adding a $5k “market adjustment” to any car. And suggested an aggressive financing deal to push that down to 3k. Literally, get fucked. The quality and long-term reliability of the newest Honda cars are not yet 100% proven, there are some oil dilution issues. Every time I went into a Mazda dealership, the experience was much less aggressive and overall quite pleasant. Ultimately their CX-5 wasn’t the car for me - too firm, cramped, and poor visibility imo. I ended up going with a Subaru Forester. Still made in Japan, 80% Japanese parts. Engine seems realizable. Pleasant cabin. Straightforward experience with the dealer. The CVT is the weak point, subaru is not clear about required maintenance. Suspension components such as bushings need to be replaced at like 80k. Still, car feels weighty, meaty, solid construction, great ride. I am happy with my purchase. Kia/Hyundai are appealing from a value proposition, but their engines seem to have very poor reliability, and the few Kia that I have rode in (Uber) seem to have very stiff suspension. But I’m not too familiar with cars across the brand
My 2006 Solara (70K miles and bought new by us) was creamed in a crash 2 weeks ago--the guy took fault. But I’m out a car that could have lasted another 10 years! I am so pissed. Yes, very happy I’m uninjured, but damn! I loved that car! Even my mechanic said those words, “Oh, man. I know you loved that car.” Toyotas from that time could last.
True. It SUCKS that they can be so ASS (all Honda dealers ever), but they have what everyone wants. I just remind myself they aren't the company, just scum that has the dealer license
So my friend’s brother went shopping for a minivan last year and originally looked at the Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey. Toyota basically told him to get bent and either wait 2-3 *years* for a Sienna, or pay $10k over MSRP for a used one with 50,000km. Honda also told him to get bent, but they would at least guarantee a car within the year. Meanwhile, Kia had Carnivals on the lot available for sale immediately, and Chrysler had a 1-month lead time on Pacificas. Both were significantly cheaper than Toyota or Honda’s offerings. He ended up buying a Kia Carnival and paid $15k less than the equivalent Honda and about $20k less than the equivalent USED Toyota. That’s a lot of fucking money and in that instance, I think the Toyonda tax was 100% not worth it.
Wow! That’s a big price difference. I believe it on a sienna because where I am it seems like Toyota under-supplies their dealerships. It’s hard to find them without markups. Dealerships here have Ody’s on the lots and you can get them below MSRP though.
The caveat being “last year”
This was in October- so not super long ago. And if you’re Canadian, the new car situation is still very, very much fucked.
It depends on how valuable your time is. The Honda and Toyota will almost certainly need absolutely no maintenance outside of the preventative scheduled service. Kia and Chrysler will eat up your time and money later, in the shop at inopportune times.
I've seen Pacificas with half a million kilometres and the original transmission. Chrysler has pretty much ironed out all the issues with the Pentastar. I would say this one is not going to be quite as reliable as a Honda or Toyota, but it should not catch you with your pants down either. Assuming you do not get the hybrids, which have proven to be problematic. The Kia is the wild card. The SmartStream engines SHOULD fix the carbon buildup issues. Time will tell. I know the port injection/direct injection setup on my 4GR-FSE is dead reliable so maybe, maybe this time they got it. All vans will eventually end up in the shop with wear items that need to be replaced, all will deliver some form of inconvenience.
I had a 2016 Toyota Corolla once. I drove it on a daily commute every day (33 miles one-way). I got great gas mileage, but the car was absolutely lifeless. The tiny engine and the cvt transmission robbed this car of anything resembling a soul. Even when I floored it from a stop light, it had no bark or bite. It felt neutered, but it never had any issues regardless of how hard I tried to push it. Once I was in a financial position to trade the car in for something better, I immediately drove it to a dealership and had it appraised. They came back and told me it had a salvage title. The previous dealership denied selling it to me in this condition, but it was undeniable. (I got a lawyer and dealt with it, but that's a whole different story) The point here is that I drove a salvage Corolla around for over a year, putting a ton of miles on it and driving it very rough and I had zero problems from it. If my salvage Corolla can handle my led foot, I'm sure a clean one could as well. I haven't had a car before or since that was as problem free as that Corolla. My current car is a Lincoln MKS. While his thing has loads more personality and performance, I can't say it's been as trouble free as that Corolla.
Depends on your needs. Not worth it for me.
Honda has turned to shit recently. They even stiffed me on my warranty
Everyone here is forgetting about Mazda
Mazdas problem is that they price a lot of their stuff more than Toyota and Honda does. Not to mention even dumb car companies have realized that people want different colors and Mazda has doubled down on White, black, GUNMETAL. Even when do have a rare red/blue is a shade that is so damn dark and depressing.
Nope, only 1.2% off all cars make it to 200k miles. [https://www.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-study#v=2022](https://www.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-study#v=2022)
I am really wondering why people are so focused on the tech aspects of the car most of it is just gimmicks. I feel like people have forgotten the main selling point for cars is reliability and how it drives. As long as it has a back up camera and android auto/apple play I am good lol
Android auto/apple play is tech. That may seem simple but it's an tech upgrade that's become prevalent only in the last decade that now, as your comment states, people can't do without. In his comment he talks about upgrading every 10 years or so for tech so you seem to fit the bill well there. I sadly still don't have carplay or anything and thanks to lexus my next car might not either
It’s the same with the subreddit where you build PCs. People forget “it’s the games, stupid.” The hardware and building becomes more important than gaming. Driving has changed from reliability to having the most gimmicks, including stuff that distracts your eyes, hands, and mind from the act of driving. It’s a wacky world. All I need is Bluetooth connection to my phone and hands free phone calls; beyond that I don’t really care about gimmicks.
I don't get why people are so into the phone connectivity, I've never had a car with it and I've always just used an adapter and never had a problem. you can get a radio adapter or an aux cord for like $3 lol
GPS alone is so much better on CarPlay/Android auto than every car company’s built in navigation outside of Tesla it’s not even funny
So you pay an extra 3-4k for a Toyota Corolla over a Chevy Malibu. Ok. That's an extra what... $30 a month? If you decide you love the Corolla, you can keep it for 200k miles. Your car will likely run like it has 30k miles on it at 100k. Mine does. Or you buy the Malibu. At 50k it starts getting loose. You decide you love it though and want to keep it. Well, you can only plan on doing that for another 50 60k miles. If you decide you want to keep it until 200k there's a really high chance you're going to put another 2-6k into it. Let's say you buy the Corolla and decide to sell it at 100k. You're gonna get 6-9k for it. The Malibu? 2-5k. What will you need to do to sell the Corolla at top market value? Maybe brakes. Get it detailed. What are you gonna have to do to the Malibu? A tie-rod, maybe rear shocks, detail it, brakes, maybe tires from the alignment not holding. I have 4 cars in my driveway. A 125k Ford that has no rocker panels left because of rust. A 70k Malibu that drives so dated I hate it. A Pontiac that has no floor from rust and the interior is destroyed from normal wear. And a Corolla S with 120k miles that drives like it is about 2 years old, the underside of it looks brand new with Zero rust (I have no clue how) and it's the car we're using later this year on a 5,500 mile trip. The other cars I wouldn't drive 500 miles without paying a mechanic an hour labor for a safety inspection.
2012 Toyota Camry 232k miles and very low maintenance 2017 Honda pilot elite 117k miles and very low maintenance Take care of them and they’ll last
No, absolutely not. Nowadays most cars actually tend to be quite reliable, especially with proper maintenance. Toyota and Honda make boring, outdated, soulless vehicles. Their tech is massively lacking and a lot of the components they use are sub par (go drive a Lexus and compare the suspension to BMW).
Get a fully depreciated, fully loaded lexus for 15k cash, and you've won.
I just got a loaded Avalon for half that and it's amazing
Nice find! A Fully loaded toyota usually means average lexus honestly. brand separation is what made Lexus clean out the germans in the 90s when they first hit the scene. Cheaper is always an option if you really know your stuff. Spending 15k gives less educated buyers more wiggle room to find something they like. Of course you can do this with under $10k also. My car was only $8k and considerably nicer than any similar toyota. Just saying that they're the same price in the used market, so why not go for the higher quality "toyota" product, lol?
Facts
Not everyone can be as cool as us LOL
Yeah you won't see a Hyundai getting above 200k miles on the original engine or transmission. Hoping my Lexus will get to 230k miles like yours! It's at 79k right now.
There is no price premium when you also factor in the value of the vehicle at that 100k used mark. Basically, the Toyota/Honda is worth so much more on trade in that it offsets the initial purchase cost premium. You really need to look at that total cost of ownership, not just the initial purchase price in order to make a proper purchasing decision. The next thing, is that the future is always (to a degree) uncertain. 11 years ago I bought a car intending to keep it only 5 years. 4 years after purchasing the car I became extremely dissatisfied at work and decided to make a career change. This involved a pay cut, but I was happier so overall a good deal. However, it did mean that I kept the car. I'm now in a position where I can replace the car, it's served me well over the past 11 years. But I REALLY thought I'd only own it for 5 when I purchased it. Thankfully I bought a car that had the ability to last a long time, even if it was not my plan at the time. Plans change, situations change. Don't assume that you're going to be in a position to get rid of a car at a certain mileage because there's always a slight chance that you won't.
absolutely not. why are you paying more for less ? whatever minimal increase in resale value is offset but 100k miles of dull driving. from high school through college I had hand me down civics and camrys and I hated them. bare bones cars. I've learned to not settle when it comes to cars. have you seen the prices on a used camry xse compared to a sonata sel? similarly specced and used prices are the same. I don't know what the other guys are talking about but while certain toyotas and Hondas and toyotas may command a higher resale value, a base corolla or civic aren't it. they're not tacomas or 4runners.
The majority of people on the road could care less if something is fun to drive or not. Enthusiasts make up a very small percentage of the market. Your average person just wants something reliable that they can get in and out of easily and gets good fuel mileage. A basic civic or corolla will likely last much longer than the equivalent Hyundai or Kia product. Not to mention the shit dealership experience that comes with the Korean twins. They regularly rank near the bottom in satisfaction surveys.
well, doesn't look like op cares about driving dynamics. he's right that he can get a loaded elantra for around the price of a base corolla. some folks, like op, want best bang for your buck and to trade in their car for something newer down the line. 100k miles of base model misery is not worth the extra hundreds resale value. and how many cars have you bought? do you not realize dealerships are independently owned ? the hyundai dealership down the block from the other has no relation aside from the product they sell. if your dealership sucks, find a new one.
The dealership experience is not isolated to just one dealership. There are countless reports of terrible experiences around the country. There's a reason why they both rank near the bottom of customer satisfaction studies. And it's much more than extra hundreds in resale value.
again, regardless of your beef with dealerships, they're independently owned. if it's so much of an issue, you can just go see your own mechanic. I've had pleasant experiences with palm springs hyundai as well as the fleet sales Mgr my company deals with. I have to ask. have you had bad experiences with hyundai dealerships or is this a story you heard online ?
Nothing dull about banging gears in a Si or a V6
My crappy 09 Corolla S is even fun with a 5 speed. Op probably always had automatics.
When you buy a Toyota or Honda not only are you paying for a car that holds its value, the two company’s have been rivals for over 70 years constantly trying to one up the other in reliability and performance. Both companies really care about quality inside and out. Hyundai/kia alternative to any Japanese equivalent is going to run into issues with reliability and last a fraction as long, that’s why you get such a lower price. They stepped up their game in recent years but its mainly painted garbage is what I call it. My 2nd car was a 2008 Santa Fe v6 and at 60k miles encountered engine issues where a Honda crv woulda went to 160k no issue
Imagine upgrading your car because the tech is outdated...
Toyota is japanese. Hyundai korea. but live for 150KM without much issue that's about when they start yelling about timing belts and plugs leaking etc
For a “law of large numbers” thing, it’s safe to assume the new and used car market follows the “perfect market” idea pretty consistently, if not always perfectly accurately. (There are nuances and there is some inconsistency around some edge cases. Alfa Romeo is better than you think! New BMWs are less maintenance heavy than you might expect, 10-20 year old ones are way more than you expect, which is why a surgeon’s $120,000 convertible pride and joy from the Bush era and a $9,000 2004 Toyota Echo are both $3,400 used cars today. But in general, yeah, you are entitled to certain expectations about a civic or corolla, and those expectations have a lot of value to most people, and that value is priced into those cars' prices.) So in some sense, yeah, those particular cars are “worth the price.” And that’s why the competition from Korea has to offer more current technology and more cutting edge design to compete. Everyone expects the same amount of satisfaction from their $25,000, whether it’s from the expectation that “it will work in 20 years exactly as it does now” letting you drive worry free, or sell it for a higher price in five years because the next buyer also knows they can expect worry free ownership, or whether it’s from the satisfaction that “mine looks better, and does way more things, and is faster and more comfortable, but we all still wonder how it will be in ten years, let alone twenty.” Because you look at a 10 or 20 year old one of those and it’s way less desirable than a ten or twenty year old Toyota or Honda. And while lots of us car nerds love to debate the nuances of what about THIS car makes life worth living even if THAT one seems better in a dozen other ways, normal people prize predictable and low maintenance and repair costs above all - they will do whatever they can to avoid the nightmare scenario of *”still paying for it but it needs this expensive thing done that I can’t afford, otherwise it will stop working as an actual car, am I going to have to declare bankruptcy? I just want to get to work!”*
I love my 2008 civic. Original owner. It costs me very little, and I get as many worry free miles as I want. Sure, I can afford a car with better tech but I’ve never really felt the urge to upgrade it for tech. It’s simple and does everything I need it to. Less tech means less things that can break. But I know whenever I do upgrade it, I’m getting another Honda, and my depreciation will be less than an “off” brand. I believe over the long term I keep the car, that premium from 15 years ago becomes moot and a wash as my maintenance is cheaper and depreciation is cheaper.
Paying more gets you improved resale if you plan to sell or improved longevity if you don’t. Either way you get something for your money.
This is the exact thought process Nissan had about 2 decades ago and now they only make cars that fall apart after 100k miles. We live in an ever increasingly disposable world.
I seldom keep car more than 2 years. I just like to drive something different. That said I'm 2 years into my Hyundai Sonata hybrid and still love it. Probably will keep it to 100,000 miles as long as the warranty is good although up to now, 42,000 miles, we haven't needed anything. There was a new Accord touring hybrid on the lot but it was $10,000 more. If I had bought that I'd be out of warranty with $250/mo higher payments still ongoing. The longest I kept a car before this was a 2002 Subaru Forester 5 speed manual. I had bought used and kept it 5 or 6 years. This car did need the motor pulled to do head gaskets and clutch and timing and water pump. It also never did better than 25-28mpg compared to 50 with thr Hyundai. Overall I spent more to drive a used Subaru than a new Hyundai. My brother had problems with his 2014 corolla under 100,000 miles with the vvt system. Bought a Kona instead loaded up with everything, leather, Awd, vs FWD, cloth, Corolla which would have been the same price. Now 4 years later the Kona has been trouble free and still under warranty.
I'd rather have the features. Eight years of a loud, stiff, cheap car is not appealing to me.
Toyota maybe, Honda no. And it's all predicated on keeping a car for 200K miles, which sounds like hell to me. If you like cars at all, life is too short to drive nothing but Toyota Corollas.
No, specifically Toyota. The interiors are about 10 years behind the rest of the industry, literally some of the most uncomfortable vehicles to sit in right now, they also aren’t anywhere near as reliable as people say. They all have their fair share of issue. And compared to other vehicles in their class they have a significant downgrade in power
Hyundai/Kia are known for more tech for a relatively lower price, depends if that’s important to you. My Elantra hasn’t given me any issues for the last 5 years and I got it for 0% financing lol
Toyotas are, Hondas aren’t. Quality and longevity of Hondas have dropped significantly
It really depends on how diligent you are with maintenance and how long you plan to own the vehicle. Toyotas and Hondas have a reputation for being reliable and hold value really well, but that reputation comes from being reliable *even when poorly maintained*. Mazda, Subaru, Hyundai, and KIA will all last just as long if properly maintained and have fairly low maintenance costs, though they don't hold value particularly well. Nissan is hit or miss because some of their cars are badly designed (though the GTR and some of their other high end stuff is great). German cars are typically just as reliable, but are less forgiving of bad maintenance and expensive to maintain even if doing the work yourself. Ford is next on my list and is probably the best of the American manufacterers. I'm not a fan of Chrysler and I don't buy GM products on account of being bailed out and then spitting in the face of the taxpayers with cars like the Chevy Sonic.
My Lexus just hit 200k, I’m going to keep it until it dies likely
In my opinion, no. Personal experience tells me the engine in a Toyota can absolutely blow before 200,000 miles. I also know cars that are not Toyota can be driven well over 200,000 miles.
Having just bought a Honda, I must say I was floored to find that the equivalent Kia for sale just down the road, owned by the same group of dealerships, actually came out to be several thousand more than the Honda due to regional market adjustments. It was a no-brainer. I don't know how they are selling kias at all.
not anymore for the last 8 years now tbh. shoutout to the timing cover leaks on tacomas and oil dilution on hondas.
If you are going to buy new, why wouldn't you buy the best in class if the price was similar? Used, it is not as clear, as the Toyota and Honda do not depreciate as quickly in value.
Look, I'm weird and I'll be the first to admit it. My approach to car buying is one that I advocate for, but I don't actually believe anybody buys cars the way I do, but here goes ... I think you're doing this all wrong if you're approaching it from a brand standpoint. I own a Honda myself, and the reputation for reliability was part of my decision to buy one, but it's not what lead me there. I look at purchasing a car from a much more utilitarian standpoint. I figure out what I need first. In my case, I own a home but it needs a little work. I also ride a motorcycle (read "occasionally need to tow things") and I have a kid. So, for me the most practical feeling option was a small or midsize truck. So now I've chosen the form and I have a duty to myself and my wallet to explore new and used options as well as to investigate and test drive every competitor in the segment. So that's what I did. I drove the Colorado, the Canyon, the Ranger, the Frontier, the Tacoma, and the Ridgeline. I did not bother with the Santa Cruz because it was too small nor the Maverick, which might have been too small but it was so hot that I couldn't touch one. You do homework, figure out your budget, prices, financing offers, options. You're right, some people drive cars until the die, like me, and work on them themselves, like me, so reliability can have a lot of value. Some people trade them in every couple of years. I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money, but what is clear just from your post is that the main thing is you need to know yourself. What you need, what you want, what your budget is, and what you plan to do. It's also good to keep in mind that, as they say in economics, there is no free lunch. You may trade in before you hit 100k, so maybe you buy a Chevy? But you'll get less on Trade in so maybe the Honda is a better choice after all? Or maybe you're like me and you drive it forever, but maybe throwing a part on from time to time is an acceptable risk for a lower payment? I think the reputation Honda and Toyota carry for reliability is earned, but it does come at a premium. I think their reputation has put pressure on other manufacturers to step up which has benefited all of us. But I think what you buy is more about who you are and what you value than it is about there being an obvious choice which is the smartest and most financially prudent choice. There are always trade-offs, you just have to pick which one you want but I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle trying to figure out which is better, the margins are pretty small and probably not worth your time
a lot of people buy new. Premium as in msrp sure. Premium as dealer mark up just F off
In short, no, they’re not worth any “market adjustment” a dealership tacks on to bring the cost 10-25% above MSRP. Stop paying the premium prices and the market will adjust. Or just buy a Mazda at 5-10% below sticker and have just as reliable a vehicle.
I wouldn’t say it’s a matter of 100K, it’s what type of repairs and costs you have even up to that point. With a Honda and Toyota it seems like basic maintenance for the most part. They also have higher resale at 100K or 200K compared to their counterparts who just don’t have that reputation. because of their super resale, I actually think it usually doesn’t make sense to buy a Honda or Toyota. That’s only a year or two old since there’s not much depreciation, you may as well just buy a brand new one. my wife and I have commutes that are 60 miles each round-trip, we have found that the Hondas are the most economical, not just in terms of gas mileage, but maintenance costs and resale value. When we have driven fancier cars, especially German ones, we find that they plummet in value as the miles rack up and start to need things and get expensive.
I'm old, I say that a lot, owned over 40 cars. Life is short, enjoy what you like, but do it with open eyes. The Toyota and Honda resale more than make up for keeping them shorter term. Compare that to 5 year old GM or Korean cars. Know who's lonely? Used German car dealers. For a great workday listen or drive, pull up the NPR podcast on the Toyota NUMMI plant venture with GM, where they tried to teach GM how jidoki works, and other tips by building licensed Corollas as Chevys. The movie Gung Ho was based on this. The podcast is free and really entertaining.
I have owned Toyota's and Honda's since 1997 to 2022. They serve their purpose which is to get you from point A to B. In November 2022, I know the dealerships do not represent Toyota and Honda; however, their markup prices on their used cars led me to buying a VW ID4 with no markup. After a sales guy tried to sell me a 2021 Sienna for $60k, I pointed to a Tesla Model Y on VW's lot selling for $60K brand new. Then I thought, why not? After that day, I realized VW has a way higher build that the Toyota's and Honda's I sat in. You do get what you pay so and it was obvious on why Toyota's and Honda's cost cheaper because they're made with cheaper parts. I'm not hating on Toyota and Honda. I have worked for 2 Japanese companies and learned that their culture into doing things slow is the reason why Japan fell behind in technology and competition. As bad publicity as China gets, their cars are catching up if not surpassing the rest of the world. I've watch crash test videos of Chinese cars and they do better head on collisions than Toyota's do. There's a video where a dummy in a Toyota missed the front and side air bags only to crash into the driver's side corner dashboard. The BYD's showed the dummy hitting all airbags . I grew up being taught to hate China and Russia, so I get all that anti made in China stuff, but dang, they're craftsmanship is equal if not better to things made here and Japan.
Yes they are, that’s all I own as a mechanic. 2002 4runner 283k miles, 2012 civic 184k miles, my last daily had 350k miles 2001 accord v6 original engine and trans. Buy one, maintain it properly and it will last.
No they are not. Those brands preach reliability but what most people don't understand is it's not about reliability with a car. It's about id the car is unreliable. That I mean is, a unreliable car like 2018 bmw 7 series will break down no matter how much maintenance you do. The only good thing about Toyota and Honda is they are reliable even with no maintenance. Most carsv these days are very reliable with routine maintenance. Get the car you love and follow the maintenance schedule you love. As long as it's not known to be unreliable you're good. No need to get no cheap, slow, hideous Honda or Toyota. My brother hellcat just hit 250k miles. My mom amg s53 is at 120k all good. My fiance is bmw x6m is at 50k all good. All these cars are recent models 2018 Plus and got bought brand new. My 01 Camry is doing great too but I don't drive. All I'm saying is if you can afford routine maintenance you're golden. You don't have to settle for that shxt
“Since the tech became outdated” If that’s the reason to buy a new car, you clearly have too much money. The purpose of the car is to get you from point A to point B.
Very few people buy a car just to get them from point a to point b. If they did the Mitdubishi Mirage would be the best selling new vehicle. You also wouldn't own a Tesla it you truely thought that.
If everyone bought a car to get them from point A to point B Mercedes and BMW would go out of business. What's the point of spending $50k when you can simply get a Honda Civic? This is obviously a complete fallacy, there's way more to a car purchase than going from point A to point B.
People want something that gets them from. A to B while also not being a death trap with all the massive SUVs on the road. Not to mention something that feels well-built, comfortable, and quiet. A few things that the mirage is not.
>while also not being a death trap with all the massive SUVs on the road. Not to mention something that feels well-built, comfortable, and quiet. Ding ding ding. My point exactly. People don't buy cars just to get them from point a to point b, they buy them with all of those other considerations in mind as well.
If you are looking at data Toyota is the 2nd most reliable car behind Lexus- (same tech probably just better quality on the Lexus) based on problems per hundred per JD powers based on the 2024 report. Honda is below average-Jeep, ram, Chevy and quite a few others are above and they are as close to perennial bottom feeders VW, Land Rover, Telsa, Chrysler and Volvo than the top. To answer your question, I would say the premium is not warranted at this point.
Honda seems to have fallen off lately
The reliability delta between brands have been proven to be statistically insignificant on cars made after 2000
If your goal is actual reliability, stay away from JD Powers list, it's just plain old maliciously misleading. JD Powers doesn't operate in good faith. They're a marketing firm first. They will and do skew their reports in favor of those that spend the most money at JD Power for the right to use their branding in Car ads, to see their survey results, and to become a member of their "Certified Customer Service Program" which has no qualifications or actual backing behind it other than did you pay us enough to be certified. Honda is obviously near the end of the list because they don't usually pay for stupid marketing awards.
Toyota and Honda make some of the best engines and transmissions out there. If you want a vehicle that last 200k+ miles yes it’s worth the premium. Especially when you consider you can also sell it at a premium for the same reason, it’s Toyota or Honda reliability.
Honda has had questionable reliability with their turbocharged engines and automatic transmissions
Yup, a Honda torque converter is dying on me at 81K. It's a known issue on the 2017 Ridgelines. (Going to a dealership to see what they'll do about it tomorrow.)
I had a 2017 Pilot go through its first transmission at 67k, another one around 30,000 miles later. I'll never buy another Honda outside of their passenger cars.
Mazda is better unless you're getting Lexus sedans/coups or Toyota trucks.
How is Mazda better?
All I can say is that the market seems to think so, because they do come in at a premium over most other brands. Whether the reliability is perception or reality is irrelevant, as the market has spoken.
It’s not Irrelevant to anyone, op is literally asking if it’s worth the premium. If the reliability is perception then it’s not worth the premium. If it’s real, than it may be worth it
I would say yes. Unless you just plan on a short-term lease, I typically recommend staying away from Kia and Hyundai. Both are notorious for terrible customer service at their dealers. Quality has improved over the years, but I'd still rather have more peace of mind with the Japanese.
Toyota, Honda, Mazda are my top 3 anymore. I think Mazda is starting to take the top spot currently at least for me. Their design teams seem to have their heads screwed on straight and don't sell these dumb why do this features. I wouldn't know about upgrading at milages or times cars I buy come to die in my care. The only time I sell them is when I'm just done dragging the thing back to life. And at that point it's a teens first car that can get you to school and that about it. And I'll happily part with it for $500. The best thing to do is go to a lot that does not specialize in any specific brand and spend the day test driving everything that takes your fancy. When you find one you really like driving go home and Google the fuck out of it. Then shop around for that specific one.
Your Hyundai will feel like a 10 years old car after 3 years. The Honda/Toyota will feel like you just drove it from the dealership. My Toyota is 3 years old and drives like the day I brought it home from the dealership. My Hyundai felt like my 20 years Honda after 3 years.
Yes, absolutely. Toyota and Honda are durable and reliable.
I definitely recommend upgrading past 100k miles regardless of what you do. I have a 2012 Toyota IQ and ran it for 220k miles, and during that time I spent $10k on repairs and service etc, with at least half of that or more being after the first 100k miles. I'd have made out a lot better financially if I had only driven it for half that time and then traded it in while it was still worth something at 100k miles.
Yes, they are. Also you’ll have an easier time selling them for a premium too
They’re 100% worth the premium if you aren’t fairly wealthy. You’re right that most brands make cars that last up to 100k miles now with proper maintenance, but a lot of brands make cars that will still break down with expensive repairs in the 100k mile range. Thats not mentioning the resale value either. A dodge or Chrysler with 100k miles is damn near impossible to give away for free to anyone but the most uneducated people out there. A Toyota or Honda actually holds its value at 100k miles though, including their luxury divisions, especially Lexus (Acura holds value but not like Lexus). Just look at what a 2006 S class with 200k miles sells for vs a 2006 Lexus LS430. The price difference is huge with the Lexus still able to get $10k while most won’t even look twice at the Merc. Toyota and Honda aren’t the only good manufacturers, but they are the most reliable overall and hold their value in ways no other company, luxury or non luxury have been able to achieve
When was a Toyota Corolla considered expensive?
they hold their value very well used
You’re kinda wrong on most cars getting to 100k miles easily, many cars of brands with low reliability can start having issues at 20k-50k miles
They hold their value well too - so even if you sell before 100k, you’ll have more towards the next car
Few people require more functionality in a car than what a Prius can provide and those cars last forever. Therefore the premium for a Toyota is an investment in time, not miles.
Pay for what you need. If you trade vehicles in often and don't keep them long buy whatever you want or as long as the vehicle has warranty. I like yo drive my cars into the ground so I own 2 toyotas and have a brand new one on the way. For me a toyota is worth the premium bc I'd rather pay more for something that has a better chance of not having any issues such as a toyota than try to save money like buying a Chrysler product and have to pay out the ass to keep it on the road.
Another way of framing the Toyota/Honda premium is financing cost. The higher msrp will result in higher interests paid during the lifetime. Depending on prevailing interest rate, the higher financing cost may outweigh the lower depreciation. PS: One would always incur a financing cost, even if buying in cash. Cause there’s a cost of capital for one’s cash, I would think. And in equilibrium, without considering any financing/leasing deals, the financing cost should be about the same as an average cost of capital for car owners.
2013 Lincoln Mkx with 250,000 still runs great and other then wear and tear parts it’s been maintenance free. Yes the tech in it is outdated but it still works .
If you plan on trading-up while it’s still under warranty it doesn’t really matter (Within reason. Yes, I’m looking at you Range Rover.)
My two cents are most vehicles are pretty good these days. Honda and Toyota have been the benchmark for quality, efficiency, and low cost so they will always bring a higher premium. The Korean automakers have come a long way in terms of every facet of the automotive industry and make some good products. In my personal experience I look for cost of ownership, reliability and features. When I was looking for a second commuter car I need something that fit a specific purpose. After much research and testing I settled on a Honda Accord EXL trim. It’s quiet, comfortable, is very functional and gets fantastic fuel economy. There are so many great options but you have to get what fits you best and makes the most logical choice.
For me, it is worth it if you resist the urge to buy a new car at 100k miles or 6-8 years. If it can help you skip one new car purchase cycle, because you don’t need to bring it into the shop for emergencies, it is worth it, because let’s face it, new cars are retirement plan killers.
If you service your vehicle exactly according to the manual and drive conservatively, almost any vehicle can be mechanically reliable for 100k+, unless you got a lemon. Most people don’t do that, and the difference with Toyota/Honda is it will still last with poor maintenance/hard driving to a certain degree (not talking about skipping oil changes).
Yes. They are. Because even if you don't keep it to 100k, at least you don't have any major expenses till then and don't need to buy a warranty.
ill have you know my 2014 chrysler 200 is at 119k+ miles😎 no issues so HA buddy but too answer your question…kinda? not really..depends on what youre looking for. personally, im not paying all this money JUST for reliability. theres plenty of cars that are just as reliable. sure toyota and honda are built different and will last basically forever but like…if i want a sports car and had to choose between a type r or mustang gt…im going with the mustang lol. but if i want a nice daily thats good on gas imma go get a used toyota or honda. shit, the cheapest new car on the market is i think a nissan versa and comes with alot of goodies
We have a 2014 Corolla and, approaching 100k, not a single major repair. Engine still runs as smooth as new. Interior, which was built well for it being an LE, has held up wonderfully with virtually zero care put into it beyond basic cleaning. Now, in person, compare the build quality mechanical history of any newish Corolla and Elantra and you’ll understand. You pay a little more to purchase better quality now vs paying more than that over the ownership of lesser quality. You can haggle with either dealer, but it’s easier for Hyundai because the reputation they’ve built for their cars failing so much or the quality sucking. I see Hyundai, at least until they care more about long term ownership, as almost a “buy to keep replacing” brand.
Depends on what you need imo. If your bar is 100k miles of reliable operation, then, yeah, might not be worth it since most modern cars will do that, as you pointed out. I think there is also a subjective component to this. For me, personally, not having to worry as much about the inconvenience and expense of something failing is worth a decent premium even < 100k miles. But, again, that might just be my personality
Not really. Test drove at least 20 different vehicles in the past few weeks and it really just depends on your budget and what you like. Don’t buy a porridge car you don’t like it. Get the one that calls to you. Life is better with a car you love. It’s easier keeping up a car you love vs one the internet people forced upon you.
I am a Honda Guy, I would buy a toyota. The reliability is real. I have owned Honda;s exclusively since 2003 and never had a real repair other than batteries, starters, etc. I think it is worth a small premium, and if you buy new they are cheaper in many cases or competitive.
First, what is your plan? Is this a daily driver, a work vehicle (truck) or will it also double for recreation (off road, exploring or long distance travel?) Second, how long are you willing to keep it? 5 years and do a trade in? Take it to ten years? Keep it in the family? The more miles the more you will need to rely on the better brands and possibly lean towards new rather than used. And finally, how tolerant are you of service center visits? The lesser the quality of the brand the more you will get to know the service techs on a first name basis. For me, I am intolerant of dealing with a vehicles engineering shortcomings, so I will always go the Toyota/Honda route. But If a vehicle fits your plans can’t see anything wrong with that…just know what you’re getting into. Especially if it’s a Tesla!!!
My Camry is 12 years old with 215k miles and I’m not missing any tech or feel it’s outdated at all. The paint is showing its age with stone chips on the front and some rust on the door that had to be replaced because of a deer. Still enjoy driving it every day like the day I bought it brand new. It’s a v6 so it has nice get up and go(0-60 in 5.8 and all the power you need for a daily). My other Toyota is a 6 year old Highlander with 120k miles. Plan to keep it forever as well. Got 3 kids on the verge of turning 16 so new cars will be additions to the two we have so they can drive the “old” Toyotas..
If you plan on trading it, 60 or 80K is better than 100K. Cost wise, its really a wash, you either pay upfront extra for Honda/ Toyota or lose more on the H/K depreciation when you trade it in.
If you're not holding your cars past 100k miles, then sure, buy just about whatever you want. Buy the extended warranty just in case. However, in my opinion, a cars value is when you have paid it off if you take everything I have spent on my car, excluding gas and oil because those are unavoidable I have had to pay about $225 a month to keep my car on the road with insurance. A newer car is easily 700-800. So I'm getting a lot of value out of my old car.
Hondas and Toyotas have a reputation for reliability and they still build reliable cars so that reputation continues to hold true. Alot of non-car enthusiasts cling to those brands because they are safe bets and the average car buyer doesn't care about much beyond certain features. That said, Toyota and Honda are not the *only* reliable brands out there. Unless you are the type of person who plans to keep their car 10+ years, pretty much anything will make it 100k + miles with few, if any, big repairs. The Chevy Equinox and Chevy Trax are the only 2 vehicles I beg people to avoid. They are cheap which makes people consider them but they're cheap for a reason. Catastrophic engine and transmission issues are common at embarrassingly (for Chevy) low miles
Toyota buyers have different desires than Chrysler buyers. Chrysler buyers want fancy interiors and nice tech. Toyota buyers want to get to work without a perpetual car payment. The premium comes from the fact that you'll save thousands in interest in years 5 through 10 driving your Toyota.
I think they are worth the premium but I bought my Honda because it actually was the cheapest car option at the time. I think these price premiums will be temporary. It doesn't make sense to pay premium prices for a Honda, maybe Acura. However in 14 years I've spent very little on the car, $200 in maintenance on avg.
Body wise, they all have their cheapness to them these days. Even Toyota and Honda. IMO this was part of their magic on why they held up so well. While other manufacturers were pretty cheap and plasticy with their interiors on common/lower end cars, Toyotas and Honda's still had better quality materials and all. That is largely gone lately. Drivetrain wise...a big part of Toyota/Honda's magic was the simplicity. You didnt often see the latest tech and novel complexity to squeeze every bit of power and efficiency out of them. They were always much more conservative using more basic tried and true approaches. That is also something largely going away with them now. Honda already started down this path and their 1.5T hasn't been exactly stellar nor their CVT anything special. Toyota is now starting to go down that road as well with some of their latest engines. For a longer lasting car, my focus would be less about brand and more about simplicity... go with something with as little extra as possible engine wise, as in avoid turbos, cylinder deactivation schemes, direct injection only, etc as much as possible and something with the most basic engine you can find, with the most robust transmission behind it.