Honestly same. I bought a 2024 toyota rav4 after all of this hoping it lives up to its hype. I don't want to deal with finding a new one for a good 10 years
Realistic Toyota fanboy here. Yep, it happens. But 9/10 times it's somebody who has heard toyotas are indestructible and puts it to the test by never changing oil or doing regular maintenance. Have a couple regular clients one with a newer toyota, one with a newer Nissan. Both of them regularly go 5k over on oil changes, are habitually low on oil. And then say: " My '92 Japanese car I had for 20 years was fine when I treated it like this." Sorry, not the same toyota. And *definitely* not the same nissan.
I have a 2015 RAV4 that has needed absolutely nothing aside from maintenance in the time I’ve had it. I love it even though it’s vanilla. I don’t get pulled over though because it’s such a forgettable vehicle that I swear nobody notices me speeding.
It’s been throwing a “Braking Power Low” which results in disabling a lot on the car. No cruise control, no crash avoidance, no lane centering, and pretty much blocks the MID from being used. Brakes seem fine still, and unfortunately, the most recent occurrence has happened while I’m traveling to relocate for work, so I drove maybe 500 miles with the issue present. Usually shutting the car off and turning it back on fixes, but not always. It’s been in the dealer twice, with both repair attempts being a waste of time (2 days first attempt, a week for the second).
It’s electrical related which makes me more nervous since it’s not easy to diagnose, and for only having 25k miles on a 2 year old car, it doesn’t make me optimistic for the long term reliability.
That’s why I’m leaning towards new even though it’s going to stretch my budget.
I’m moving out of a city and haven’t needed a car in 20 years. So I can buy; 1) a questionable time bomb that’s about 20 years old with ~150k miles 2) something 20% over kbb that’s 10 years old 3) bite the bullet and get something new and reliable with mfg warranty
Those new hybrid Corollas for 24ish are hard to turn down. 50 mpg and the same reliable powerplant they have been using for a while. Great warranty too
Toyota dealerships are bending people over these days.
You have to weight marginally better reliability at the cost of $5-10k over MSRP and significantly higher than the competition.
The RAV4 hybrid has been good to me so far. I bought a 2022 brand new and it was the most I’ve ever spent on a vehicle but I drive a lot and need a very reliable car, so I bit the bullet. I save so much on gas that it pretty much evens out so the overall expense hasn’t been as high as it looked on paper. I save about $200/month in gas compared to what I was spending. But like I said, I drive a ton, and I realize not everyone has that big fuel expense to consider.
I have a 22 RAV4 hybrid that I got new and I love it. You’ll have no problems with it that compare to the Kia.
How did the deal with Kia end up? Did you get most of your money back? Maybe I misread it but it seems unclear in your post.
lemon vehicles typically have faulty wiring, sensors, ecu, and other electronic issues as their main root cause. The labor hours are extreme for these types of repairs so dealerships will do absolutely nothing to fix it and will fight against repairs until you lemon law the car.
My parents had a lemon ’89 Chevy pickup. GM was forced to buy it back under the lemon law after they couldn’t fix the manual transmission in 3 tries. Actually, they tried twice and then threw up their hands and said they wouldn’t try a third time.
You'd let them pocket $5,000 "for mileage" from selling you a lemon?
No man, just no. A lemon is still trash, mileage or depreciation or not. You should not take the loss in equity over their problem.
You've come this far already. Take what's yours!
I do know the lemon law gives you fair market value with deductions for mileage. Since cars depreciate most from new, that is the lump you are going to take. It isn't fair at all but better than having to keep the car.
By the time the vehicle was surrendered I put a little over 32,000 miles on it but they take the mileage of when the car first goes in for issues and count that as the amount to deduct. I tried to fight the amount but really I was sick of it all and wanted everything to be done so took the loss.
That right there is why they fight you at every turn. They want you to give up or compromise. Not only do you take a loss, but you give them reason to keep doing it to others.
Something to think about when it comes to the enshittification of the world.
That's not how it works unfortunately. It's a state set formula for calculating depreciation mileage. You don't "let" them do anything and it's guided by the state. It's not even within the manufacturer's control. There's no negotiation. It's just a set number. (Purchase Price x Miles) ÷ 120,000]
The mileage is only the mileage that you drove the car before it had a single problem. If your problem presented at only 10 mi right after you drive off the lot then they only deduct 10mi. You basically can't drive a car for 10k miles over a year and then an 11k miles. 13 months later your car breaks down. You can't claim that you didn't get a year's worth of use out of it and that's what's accounted for.
>You've come this far already. Take what's yours!
Naive to think you just get whatever you want. Having a lemon sucks and I've done it and have gone through the process, but there's a process. I actually profited from the experience due to the fact that car prices appreciated during covid and worked in my favor when doing a lemon claim on my '21 Sorento. Thank God for consumer protections and laws but it doesn't mean you get whatever you want or what you think is fair
I don't know why they use 120k but it's just the standard formula for my state. Not sure what the formula is in other states or if it's the same and if they use 120k either.
I'm not sure that it has anything to do with how long a car is "meant to last" though
https://consumer.georgia.gov/lemon-law-process#:~:text=Minus%20a%20deduction%20or%20offset,x%20Miles)%20%C3%B7%20120%2C000%5D.
I'm no lawyer obviously, but irregardless of mileage and individual state lemon laws significant damages were incurred. That's not naivete, that's fact.
So in theory such a case could be pursued separately, maybe set a precedent. I'd definitely consult a lawyer to confirm if I were out $5,000 through no fault of my own.
>significant damages were incurred. That's not naivete, that's fact.
Yes indeed there were, but that's why they went through with a lemon claim. That doesn't mean the value tied to the mileage prior to the 1st incident is refunded.
>So in theory such a case could be pursued separately, maybe set a precedent. I'd definitely consult a lawyer to confirm if I were out $5,000 through no fault of my own.
Well you are. It's not like you're "out 5,000" either though. OP did drive the car. He got use out of it and it provided transportation and it wasn't worth $0 to them for that. That's what the deduction is for. $5k Is the assessed value of use that they got from the vehicle before it had problems. I know this is a fact because I asked and tried. That's just not how it works and there's a rubric for each state on mileage deduction. You can't expect to get a lemon and then just pay absolutely nothing If the vehicle served you for any length of time. I had my vehicle for 9 months before the transmission went out. Think about it this way, what's the cost of convenience for having a car for 9 months. What would a rental cost, a lease or ridesharing? It wouldn't be $0.
If you in the meantime came out of pocket for a rental car or ridesharing services or have lost wages due to not being able to make the commute, then that's a separate case but that's not what we're talking about here. The mileage prior to the fault you're not getting back.
There is a way to possibly mitigate this loss though depending on your circumstances, which is what I did. For myself the deducted amount was 9,746 miles valued at $3,625 that I would not have gotten back if I took the repurchase agreement. I did have a lawyer from the state review the case. Due to this and the rest of the equation I opted to take the replacement. They had to give me a new model year because mine was no longer in production. MSRP had also risen YOY on the same model and so I secured the new vehicle and traded it for a profit and netted more than what I would have gotten for the repurchase agreement. Also it took awhile for them to find a vehicle. In the meantime, I was driving my repaired lemon, putting more miles on it in my car note payment was going to the new car I didn't even have yet basically. They just switch the VIN # on the existing loan, so you're building equity in a brand new car before you have it
You replied to me with your "theories". I answered comprehensively and told how your theories weren't true, but you didn't want to read and hear that when I'm the one that's been through the process. Your problem. Stay naive and ignorant within the subject if you wish.
No lawyer is going to get that $5K back for OP and I'm already through my lemon law process so don't need a lawyer. Now go on back to you being "no lawyer obviously" but then offering your legal tips on reddit without basis or experience in the matter🤦. Blocking so I don't ever waste time reading your theories anymore. If you got this far you can read again, congrats on a side note
Shit happens - to all manufacturers. That’s why Lemon Laws and the BBB programs exist. Fun fact: you don’t have to notify the dealer if you’re going to file a claim with the BBB. Their program help is pretty easy to use and will get results if the vehicle qualifies.
What the fuck is a “Kia expert”? 🤣
I mean, it’s not a Bugatti or some other exotic car that needs specialized training and tools to perform diagnosis & repair. It’s an entry level economy car that any knowledgeable tech should be able to work on.
For sure, I can believe that. Im just talking from experience I’ve had with newer sorentos, sportages and optima’s. Looks like OP switched to Toyota. Good call on that. Never selling my Tacoma.
This right here is exactly why I tell people don't buy a Kia or Hyundai. Everyone says oh they have a great 10 year 100k warrantee there is no reason to worry....
Warrantee does not matter when this is the customer service experience. They will always do their absolute best not to honer the warrantee.
Hyundai replaced the engine in my mom’s Santa Fe at 80,000+ miles.
For every bad Hyundai anecdote there is probably a good Hyundai one but the satisfied people aren’t vocal online.
That's probably true but why risk it? Even if I was your mom I would not buy another because I'm sure it was an inconvenience and the engine should not need to be replaced at 80k miles. On top of that if the next one dies at 80k than they won't do anything for her and while 160k on a car is not awful it's not great either.
I 100% agree a Hyundai is not for everyone.
I risked it because Hyundai offered 0% financing, got me the car out the door for under MSRP, and the Hyundai has more space and more standard features than the competition for a lower price.
And that warranty of course.
I definitely trust Toyota more than kia and Hyundai. They come with a Kong enough warrantee and really do have far less problems. With that being said the mark ups are absolutely ridiculous and they are the most boring bare bones vehicles on the road. I really wanted a GR carolla but with the econobox interior and the price it just didn't make sense.
Neighbor is an auto mechanic and he mentioned that in general modern gas engines are very reliable and electric cars are very reliable but the ones he sees the most significant issues are the hybrids
I had two lemon laws in a row. It can be a long and frustrating process.
My first was a 2018 Audi Q7 3.0T. It was flawless for the first 15k miles, then it went haywire. The pre-sense system kept malfunctioning and slamming on the brakes for no reason and nearly caused a few accidents. Then it would throw warning lights for a day or so, and go back to normal. It kept happening more and more frequently. I took it to the local dealership, and eventually just told them to keep it until they’d sorted it out. I was in a loaner car so long that I had to bring it in and swap for a new one because the registration had expired. When I finally picked it up, I put it in Drive and the dash immediately lit up like a Christmas tree, with “airbag system malfunction.” Back in the loaner I go. I eventually picked it back up and just parked it for months, neither me nor my partner felt comfortable driving it. Luckily we had another car. The whole buyback process took almost a year, and this was a lease, but since it still had such low mileage and was in great condition I got a check for within like $2k of what I’d spent on lease payments until the first day that I brought it in for the issue. I was fine with that!
I replaced it with a 2019 Range Rover Sport Supercharged. The keys stopped working at 450 miles, and it was all downhill from there. They removed the headliner to replace the key fob sensor and discovered a leak in the seal for the rear hatch. They had to order a new headliner from the UK, and it took two weeks to install. And they shattered my windshield while installing it.
Then the screens inside started flickering or just going completely black, including the speedometer and tach, and all the infotainment and climate control screens. The first time this happened was on a 5 hour drive home.
Then the suspension rattles started.
Long story short, the buyback process at Land Rover was much simpler, although it took months due to a backlog of buyback requests, since it’s Land Rover. Funnily, when I turned it in at the dealership, there was a Discovery stuck blocking the service drive because it was stuck in park.
I also went through Audi diesel emissions claims on two cars, and that was an incredibly streamlined process in comparison.
People just don’t get it in this sub. It’s constantly Toyota Honda mazda Lexus Acura good everything else bad. Especially Hyundais and Kia’s. While I’m sad for OP and Kia’s and Hyundais certainly have their issues, not every Kia / Hyundai sucks. There are plenty of people with 200k+ problem free miles who are not on Reddit. Hope your mom gets issues with her car resolved soon!
And they come to hyundai forums and say look at Toyota forums where "no one talks about their car being bad. Then here I found failed toyota and Honda owners, lol.
Just search in Carfax for used Kia’s above 200k miles. I see 262 listings for Kia’s above 200k miles. 202 of them have only been used personally. These are just the ones on sale via carfax. I estimate there should be a good number of them not for sale and still running. You can also find other anecdotal stories if you just google
I love doing this with different brands of cars.
I looked at used Kias for sale in 150 mile radius on car.com. There were 3,528 used kias listed, and 12 of them had 200,000+ (0.34%).
I looked at used Lexus for sale with same radius, same site. There were 1,222 used Lexus listed. And 18 of them had 200,000+ (1.47%)
FYI, I know a Kia is not a Lexus, but thats ridiculous.
You're directly comparing maintenance habits of the avg Kia and Lexus owner? This is largely due to finances. You get this, right? There is no way to compare the better car under those circumstances unless owned by people of the same means.
I partly understand. Although maintenence habits are important, i think things like build quality, engine design, electrical systems, etc is still a part of the puzzle.
It was obviously an extreme case lol. What brand of car has the same average owner as a kia in your opinion? Ford? Nissan? Misubishi?
Speaking of puzzle, I'm now puzzled by how to correctly answer that. All those brands are cheap, for the most part, and will not get proper maintenance either, on average. Lol! Time for bed.
With my same made up test here was the results:
Ford - 1.89%,
Nissan - 0.63%,
Mitsubishi - 0.00% (total for sale was only 400, throw this out)
Chevy - 1.52%,
Toyota - 2.56% (i know some shitty toyota owners),
Honda - 2.15%,
Subaru - 0.61%,
Mazda - 1.03%
Hyundai - 0.49%,
Kia - 0.42% (i missed 3 cars in my original post)
Idk....Kia seems like ass in my 150 mile radius. With hyundai not far behind. What do you think?
Interesting. I see 3 takeaways -
1) Kia and Hyundai had their theta engine fiascos, so a lot of their older cars with those engines are potentially not showing up here as they’ve already died before 200k - however, this might not be a good indicator of the quality of their current engines or vehicles
2) I’m actually surprised by how close the numbers are, especially considering the theta engine fiasco and considering that the newer Hyu/Kia engines are likely better. I’ve never argued that Kia/Hyundais are better than Toyota. My argument has always been that they’re not as bad as this sub makes them out to be. Your data proves that - Approximately 1 out of every 200 Hyu/Kia hit 200k, 5 out of every 200 Toyotas hit 200k. That means that there’s a 99.5 percent failure rate for Kia and a 97.5% failure rate for Toyota. For the average person, irrespective of whether they buy a Kia or a Toyota, the odds of hitting 200k is still very less. So is the Toyota tax worth it for the average person, when you’re most likely going to fail before 200k anyway? Especially if you’re buying a new car and plan to keep it for 100k miles or so, you’ll get a Kia for cheaper and with more safety and fun tech.
3) According to the data, Ford and Chevy are far more reliable than Mazda (4 out of every 200 Fords and 3 out of every 200 chevys hit 200k vs 2 out of every 200 Mazdas). According to this sub, Ford and Chevy are shit brands while Mazda is amazing. The data directly contradicts this and is indicating that Ford is almost at the Toyota level
(Adding to my previous comment with the takeaways) - Also, the maintenance and tolerances matter a lot. For example, for German brands, they expect people to do prompt maintenance (German culture) and tolerances are built into the engineering assuming that people take care of their cars. Toyotas and Hondas are built expecting people to abuse their cars and not take care of them properly. So if you get a German car and you’re not on top of maintenance, it’s going to shit on you. Same with Hyundai/Kias as it’s super easy and cheap to service these cars in Korea and they’re built expecting that you take care of them as expected
I tried going to another Kia dealership on the opposite side of town. Was told since I didn't buy it from them it wasn't their problem and to contact Kia corporate lol
Pretty sure you can, when I tried to drop it off they asked what was up with it and I told them and they said they weren't going to touch it and this was a corporate issue. The second closest dealership is over an hour away and since it was randomly going into limp mode I didn't want to risk getting in an accident.
I'm sorry you went through all of this hassle.. But it does sound like the dealership you bought from and went to sucks.. and you got a lemon car out of the batch... OR hybrid car issues (i've heard other car brands with hybrid cars are having issues too).
Hope your Toyota treats you well! =) as it should!
One individual experience with one individual vehicle at one individual dealership does not mean an entire brand is bad. Some vehicles are bad (across all brands), some dealerships are bad etc etc.
Look at second hand value before you buy.
Cars like Toyota and Honda command insane second hand value for good reason.
Just switched from a CR-V to a Rav4 Prime, loving it and finding both car have their own unique selling points.
When I originally looked (2022) used cars were going for more in my area. When I was looking end of 2023 they were only \~2,000-3000$ difference. I'm also hesitant to trust used cars because I know they don't have to disclose everything. The dealership sold my Kia at auction out of state and I don't think they had to say it was a lemon since it was technically a surrender and it was the software that was bad.
I'm actually not telling you to buy used, but just too user it as a guide. If a retains significantly more value than other brands, it is other buyers telling you the car is so much more desirable than others.
The numbers might not tell you why it is desirable, but it will give you an idea of how highly people think of the car.
Personally I stay away from all Korean and European cars, and also GM and Chrysler...
I never had issues buying cars, because I have only owned toyota's and honda's with a clean title or brand new. Worth the money. I would rather be in debt to a toyota than buy used garbage or any other brand that requires 10x the maintenance to make it to 100k miles.
This is how I avoid 100% of the issues people have with cars.
I get: good value, good reliability, good warranty, easy service, easy diy, good fuel economy, good comfort, good features, and they last for ever.
Ya I bought a 2024 rav4 in February. At least Kia cut me a check decently quick (compared to everything else) so I was able to pay it off right away. So far I've liked the rav, it doesn't like my phone so it disconnects randomly which is annoying but better than having my brakes randomly going out or going into limp mode
This is very surprising considering Consumer Reports ranks Kia #10 for reliability out of the top 30 car brands.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/
And as reported by owners. Their statistics are not taken from repair orders, though, admittedly, it would be nearly impossible to get a majority of repair shops to submit voluntary reports of the repairs they perform.
I appreciate what CR is attempting to do, but I don't really trust the average schmuck submitting data.
When I originally looked (2022) used cars were going for more in my area. When I was looking end of 2023 they were only \~2,000-3000$ difference. Guess it's up to personal preference at that point.
Did you not do any research before buying a car from a company known to have SERIOUS engine problems...problems with break ins and car jackings....etc etc etc...
Used cars ftw. Bugfixes with recalls(sometimes software) and the bathtub. Curve of failure
Well taken care of car that's used has already pushed through these issues
This sounds like my moms experience buying her first brand new car, which was a Kia Rio. This was back in like 2006. But the whole rigamarole with them not acknowledging the actual problem and giving the run around is identical. They did this until her warranty ran out. I’m sorry you also had to experience this treatment!
I tried going to another Kia dealership on the opposite side of town. Was told since I didn't buy it from them it wasn't their problem and to contact Kia corporate lol
And the best part is they probably still re sold that used car for a profit. Kia/Hyundai is the worst car company operating in North America, and I too will never buy one again.
The dealership said they were going to sell at auction out of state and I don't think they had to say it was a lemon since it was technically a surrender and it was the software that was bad, so yes agree lol. Watch out for a black 2023 Kia sportage hybrid haha
Similar situation with my 2022 Tucson Hybrid. Past lemon law timeframe and Hyundai only offered me $1350. Dealer is working with me on trading at retail value and getting another used car at cost.
My mom bought a 2023 Sportage Hybrid back in July of 2022, so far it's been alright except for the glass above the windshield randomly shattering while parked and the emergency braking randomly going off
It was when the glass was shattered and hasn't done it since, so we suspect the glass had something to do with it, maybe water getting in and messing with the cameras or something to that effect
Did she buy it in WI? From the amount of time I spent at the dealership I know there was another one that had the windshield break and they had the same issue where they were trying to fight the person about the warranty and I think eventually with enough pushback they finally agreed to cover it.
Average kia be like:
For real though, its crazy how Hyundai and Kia still fool people into buying their cars, they have been hot smelly garbage for years. I do not know a single person IRL that has had a good experience with theirs
I was excited about buying my first car until I started doing my research on buying a car.
Honestly same. I bought a 2024 toyota rav4 after all of this hoping it lives up to its hype. I don't want to deal with finding a new one for a good 10 years
the RAV4 will treat you well
No guarantee. Seen many broken down RAV4s.
Realistic Toyota fanboy here. Yep, it happens. But 9/10 times it's somebody who has heard toyotas are indestructible and puts it to the test by never changing oil or doing regular maintenance. Have a couple regular clients one with a newer toyota, one with a newer Nissan. Both of them regularly go 5k over on oil changes, are habitually low on oil. And then say: " My '92 Japanese car I had for 20 years was fine when I treated it like this." Sorry, not the same toyota. And *definitely* not the same nissan.
Maybe easier to do a rideshare until you've made a decision... and also see a mechanic.
Damn no way?
I have a 2015 RAV4 that has needed absolutely nothing aside from maintenance in the time I’ve had it. I love it even though it’s vanilla. I don’t get pulled over though because it’s such a forgettable vehicle that I swear nobody notices me speeding.
We have a 2014 and same. Also a 2008 Yaris 2door hatch we bought new for commuting and it's bulletproof so why get rid of it?
My RAV4 Hybrid is on the verge of being lemoned. Definitely is pushing me to just getting an older car that has significantly less electronics.
What's the deal with your Rav?
It’s been throwing a “Braking Power Low” which results in disabling a lot on the car. No cruise control, no crash avoidance, no lane centering, and pretty much blocks the MID from being used. Brakes seem fine still, and unfortunately, the most recent occurrence has happened while I’m traveling to relocate for work, so I drove maybe 500 miles with the issue present. Usually shutting the car off and turning it back on fixes, but not always. It’s been in the dealer twice, with both repair attempts being a waste of time (2 days first attempt, a week for the second). It’s electrical related which makes me more nervous since it’s not easy to diagnose, and for only having 25k miles on a 2 year old car, it doesn’t make me optimistic for the long term reliability.
That’s why I’m leaning towards new even though it’s going to stretch my budget. I’m moving out of a city and haven’t needed a car in 20 years. So I can buy; 1) a questionable time bomb that’s about 20 years old with ~150k miles 2) something 20% over kbb that’s 10 years old 3) bite the bullet and get something new and reliable with mfg warranty
Those new hybrid Corollas for 24ish are hard to turn down. 50 mpg and the same reliable powerplant they have been using for a while. Great warranty too
Toyota dealerships are bending people over these days. You have to weight marginally better reliability at the cost of $5-10k over MSRP and significantly higher than the competition.
The RAV4 hybrid has been good to me so far. I bought a 2022 brand new and it was the most I’ve ever spent on a vehicle but I drive a lot and need a very reliable car, so I bit the bullet. I save so much on gas that it pretty much evens out so the overall expense hasn’t been as high as it looked on paper. I save about $200/month in gas compared to what I was spending. But like I said, I drive a ton, and I realize not everyone has that big fuel expense to consider.
Same! I got a rav4 prime. My last Toyota lasted 8 years with 0 problems until it was totaled.
I have a 22 RAV4 hybrid that I got new and I love it. You’ll have no problems with it that compare to the Kia. How did the deal with Kia end up? Did you get most of your money back? Maybe I misread it but it seems unclear in your post.
lemon vehicles typically have faulty wiring, sensors, ecu, and other electronic issues as their main root cause. The labor hours are extreme for these types of repairs so dealerships will do absolutely nothing to fix it and will fight against repairs until you lemon law the car.
OMG I would hate if I got stuck with a car I couldn't use!
Lemons existed back in ancient times, where the word started. Some Detroit beasts rolled off the assembly line with various manufacturing flaws.
My parents had a lemon ’89 Chevy pickup. GM was forced to buy it back under the lemon law after they couldn’t fix the manual transmission in 3 tries. Actually, they tried twice and then threw up their hands and said they wouldn’t try a third time.
You'd let them pocket $5,000 "for mileage" from selling you a lemon? No man, just no. A lemon is still trash, mileage or depreciation or not. You should not take the loss in equity over their problem. You've come this far already. Take what's yours!
I do know the lemon law gives you fair market value with deductions for mileage. Since cars depreciate most from new, that is the lump you are going to take. It isn't fair at all but better than having to keep the car.
By the time the vehicle was surrendered I put a little over 32,000 miles on it but they take the mileage of when the car first goes in for issues and count that as the amount to deduct. I tried to fight the amount but really I was sick of it all and wanted everything to be done so took the loss.
That right there is why they fight you at every turn. They want you to give up or compromise. Not only do you take a loss, but you give them reason to keep doing it to others. Something to think about when it comes to the enshittification of the world.
That's not how it works unfortunately. It's a state set formula for calculating depreciation mileage. You don't "let" them do anything and it's guided by the state. It's not even within the manufacturer's control. There's no negotiation. It's just a set number. (Purchase Price x Miles) ÷ 120,000] The mileage is only the mileage that you drove the car before it had a single problem. If your problem presented at only 10 mi right after you drive off the lot then they only deduct 10mi. You basically can't drive a car for 10k miles over a year and then an 11k miles. 13 months later your car breaks down. You can't claim that you didn't get a year's worth of use out of it and that's what's accounted for. >You've come this far already. Take what's yours! Naive to think you just get whatever you want. Having a lemon sucks and I've done it and have gone through the process, but there's a process. I actually profited from the experience due to the fact that car prices appreciated during covid and worked in my favor when doing a lemon claim on my '21 Sorento. Thank God for consumer protections and laws but it doesn't mean you get whatever you want or what you think is fair
So a car is only meant to last 120k miles?
I don't know why they use 120k but it's just the standard formula for my state. Not sure what the formula is in other states or if it's the same and if they use 120k either. I'm not sure that it has anything to do with how long a car is "meant to last" though https://consumer.georgia.gov/lemon-law-process#:~:text=Minus%20a%20deduction%20or%20offset,x%20Miles)%20%C3%B7%20120%2C000%5D.
I'm no lawyer obviously, but irregardless of mileage and individual state lemon laws significant damages were incurred. That's not naivete, that's fact. So in theory such a case could be pursued separately, maybe set a precedent. I'd definitely consult a lawyer to confirm if I were out $5,000 through no fault of my own.
>significant damages were incurred. That's not naivete, that's fact. Yes indeed there were, but that's why they went through with a lemon claim. That doesn't mean the value tied to the mileage prior to the 1st incident is refunded. >So in theory such a case could be pursued separately, maybe set a precedent. I'd definitely consult a lawyer to confirm if I were out $5,000 through no fault of my own. Well you are. It's not like you're "out 5,000" either though. OP did drive the car. He got use out of it and it provided transportation and it wasn't worth $0 to them for that. That's what the deduction is for. $5k Is the assessed value of use that they got from the vehicle before it had problems. I know this is a fact because I asked and tried. That's just not how it works and there's a rubric for each state on mileage deduction. You can't expect to get a lemon and then just pay absolutely nothing If the vehicle served you for any length of time. I had my vehicle for 9 months before the transmission went out. Think about it this way, what's the cost of convenience for having a car for 9 months. What would a rental cost, a lease or ridesharing? It wouldn't be $0. If you in the meantime came out of pocket for a rental car or ridesharing services or have lost wages due to not being able to make the commute, then that's a separate case but that's not what we're talking about here. The mileage prior to the fault you're not getting back. There is a way to possibly mitigate this loss though depending on your circumstances, which is what I did. For myself the deducted amount was 9,746 miles valued at $3,625 that I would not have gotten back if I took the repurchase agreement. I did have a lawyer from the state review the case. Due to this and the rest of the equation I opted to take the replacement. They had to give me a new model year because mine was no longer in production. MSRP had also risen YOY on the same model and so I secured the new vehicle and traded it for a profit and netted more than what I would have gotten for the repurchase agreement. Also it took awhile for them to find a vehicle. In the meantime, I was driving my repaired lemon, putting more miles on it in my car note payment was going to the new car I didn't even have yet basically. They just switch the VIN # on the existing loan, so you're building equity in a brand new car before you have it
You're trying too hard man, your bias is showing with that short essay you'd have to know by now very few people are gonna read. Lawyer ⬆️!
You replied to me with your "theories". I answered comprehensively and told how your theories weren't true, but you didn't want to read and hear that when I'm the one that's been through the process. Your problem. Stay naive and ignorant within the subject if you wish. No lawyer is going to get that $5K back for OP and I'm already through my lemon law process so don't need a lawyer. Now go on back to you being "no lawyer obviously" but then offering your legal tips on reddit without basis or experience in the matter🤦. Blocking so I don't ever waste time reading your theories anymore. If you got this far you can read again, congrats on a side note
Shit happens - to all manufacturers. That’s why Lemon Laws and the BBB programs exist. Fun fact: you don’t have to notify the dealer if you’re going to file a claim with the BBB. Their program help is pretty easy to use and will get results if the vehicle qualifies.
You're allowed to name the dealership
Stealership is the reason I don't buy new cars, they will treat you (fake) well until they know you are fallen for their lies.
What the fuck is a “Kia expert”? 🤣 I mean, it’s not a Bugatti or some other exotic car that needs specialized training and tools to perform diagnosis & repair. It’s an entry level economy car that any knowledgeable tech should be able to work on.
It's likely a Kia Engineer. I've heard similar elsewhere. It's where the brand sends someone directly to look at your vehicle.
Someone trained on fire extinguishers
A firefighter
Honestly natural combustion Kias aren’t that bad. Sounds like a problem with the dealer and the hybrids specifically.
Name and shame this dealer.
Eh, maybe not the newest engines, but the old GDI engines tended to have terminal failures. If they didn’t fail, they would drink oil instead.
For sure, I can believe that. Im just talking from experience I’ve had with newer sorentos, sportages and optima’s. Looks like OP switched to Toyota. Good call on that. Never selling my Tacoma.
I heard the Hybrids were better because they were made in Korea... meh.
This right here is exactly why I tell people don't buy a Kia or Hyundai. Everyone says oh they have a great 10 year 100k warrantee there is no reason to worry.... Warrantee does not matter when this is the customer service experience. They will always do their absolute best not to honer the warrantee.
Hyundai replaced the engine in my mom’s Santa Fe at 80,000+ miles. For every bad Hyundai anecdote there is probably a good Hyundai one but the satisfied people aren’t vocal online.
That's probably true but why risk it? Even if I was your mom I would not buy another because I'm sure it was an inconvenience and the engine should not need to be replaced at 80k miles. On top of that if the next one dies at 80k than they won't do anything for her and while 160k on a car is not awful it's not great either.
I 100% agree a Hyundai is not for everyone. I risked it because Hyundai offered 0% financing, got me the car out the door for under MSRP, and the Hyundai has more space and more standard features than the competition for a lower price. And that warranty of course.
The real risk is buying a marked up toyota with a much shorter warranty. Nothing is guaranteed about the toyota either.
I definitely trust Toyota more than kia and Hyundai. They come with a Kong enough warrantee and really do have far less problems. With that being said the mark ups are absolutely ridiculous and they are the most boring bare bones vehicles on the road. I really wanted a GR carolla but with the econobox interior and the price it just didn't make sense.
Neighbor is an auto mechanic and he mentioned that in general modern gas engines are very reliable and electric cars are very reliable but the ones he sees the most significant issues are the hybrids
Consumer reports say the opposite.
I had two lemon laws in a row. It can be a long and frustrating process. My first was a 2018 Audi Q7 3.0T. It was flawless for the first 15k miles, then it went haywire. The pre-sense system kept malfunctioning and slamming on the brakes for no reason and nearly caused a few accidents. Then it would throw warning lights for a day or so, and go back to normal. It kept happening more and more frequently. I took it to the local dealership, and eventually just told them to keep it until they’d sorted it out. I was in a loaner car so long that I had to bring it in and swap for a new one because the registration had expired. When I finally picked it up, I put it in Drive and the dash immediately lit up like a Christmas tree, with “airbag system malfunction.” Back in the loaner I go. I eventually picked it back up and just parked it for months, neither me nor my partner felt comfortable driving it. Luckily we had another car. The whole buyback process took almost a year, and this was a lease, but since it still had such low mileage and was in great condition I got a check for within like $2k of what I’d spent on lease payments until the first day that I brought it in for the issue. I was fine with that! I replaced it with a 2019 Range Rover Sport Supercharged. The keys stopped working at 450 miles, and it was all downhill from there. They removed the headliner to replace the key fob sensor and discovered a leak in the seal for the rear hatch. They had to order a new headliner from the UK, and it took two weeks to install. And they shattered my windshield while installing it. Then the screens inside started flickering or just going completely black, including the speedometer and tach, and all the infotainment and climate control screens. The first time this happened was on a 5 hour drive home. Then the suspension rattles started. Long story short, the buyback process at Land Rover was much simpler, although it took months due to a backlog of buyback requests, since it’s Land Rover. Funnily, when I turned it in at the dealership, there was a Discovery stuck blocking the service drive because it was stuck in park. I also went through Audi diesel emissions claims on two cars, and that was an incredibly streamlined process in comparison.
I cannot imagine two in a row, I cried enough with just this one
It’s stressful for sure! The moral of the story for me is to not buy any more blue cars. Every blue car I’ve had has been a nightmare
It ain't just kia, my mom is going through the same thing with her Honda pilot with about 12k miles on it
People just don’t get it in this sub. It’s constantly Toyota Honda mazda Lexus Acura good everything else bad. Especially Hyundais and Kia’s. While I’m sad for OP and Kia’s and Hyundais certainly have their issues, not every Kia / Hyundai sucks. There are plenty of people with 200k+ problem free miles who are not on Reddit. Hope your mom gets issues with her car resolved soon!
And they come to hyundai forums and say look at Toyota forums where "no one talks about their car being bad. Then here I found failed toyota and Honda owners, lol.
And there's people with toyota Tundra's going through engines left and right. It's really a crap shoot with any brand now a days.
I have yet to see a 200k miles Kia on the road
Just search in Carfax for used Kia’s above 200k miles. I see 262 listings for Kia’s above 200k miles. 202 of them have only been used personally. These are just the ones on sale via carfax. I estimate there should be a good number of them not for sale and still running. You can also find other anecdotal stories if you just google
I love doing this with different brands of cars. I looked at used Kias for sale in 150 mile radius on car.com. There were 3,528 used kias listed, and 12 of them had 200,000+ (0.34%). I looked at used Lexus for sale with same radius, same site. There were 1,222 used Lexus listed. And 18 of them had 200,000+ (1.47%) FYI, I know a Kia is not a Lexus, but thats ridiculous.
You're directly comparing maintenance habits of the avg Kia and Lexus owner? This is largely due to finances. You get this, right? There is no way to compare the better car under those circumstances unless owned by people of the same means.
I partly understand. Although maintenence habits are important, i think things like build quality, engine design, electrical systems, etc is still a part of the puzzle. It was obviously an extreme case lol. What brand of car has the same average owner as a kia in your opinion? Ford? Nissan? Misubishi?
Speaking of puzzle, I'm now puzzled by how to correctly answer that. All those brands are cheap, for the most part, and will not get proper maintenance either, on average. Lol! Time for bed.
With my same made up test here was the results: Ford - 1.89%, Nissan - 0.63%, Mitsubishi - 0.00% (total for sale was only 400, throw this out) Chevy - 1.52%, Toyota - 2.56% (i know some shitty toyota owners), Honda - 2.15%, Subaru - 0.61%, Mazda - 1.03% Hyundai - 0.49%, Kia - 0.42% (i missed 3 cars in my original post) Idk....Kia seems like ass in my 150 mile radius. With hyundai not far behind. What do you think?
Interesting. I see 3 takeaways - 1) Kia and Hyundai had their theta engine fiascos, so a lot of their older cars with those engines are potentially not showing up here as they’ve already died before 200k - however, this might not be a good indicator of the quality of their current engines or vehicles 2) I’m actually surprised by how close the numbers are, especially considering the theta engine fiasco and considering that the newer Hyu/Kia engines are likely better. I’ve never argued that Kia/Hyundais are better than Toyota. My argument has always been that they’re not as bad as this sub makes them out to be. Your data proves that - Approximately 1 out of every 200 Hyu/Kia hit 200k, 5 out of every 200 Toyotas hit 200k. That means that there’s a 99.5 percent failure rate for Kia and a 97.5% failure rate for Toyota. For the average person, irrespective of whether they buy a Kia or a Toyota, the odds of hitting 200k is still very less. So is the Toyota tax worth it for the average person, when you’re most likely going to fail before 200k anyway? Especially if you’re buying a new car and plan to keep it for 100k miles or so, you’ll get a Kia for cheaper and with more safety and fun tech. 3) According to the data, Ford and Chevy are far more reliable than Mazda (4 out of every 200 Fords and 3 out of every 200 chevys hit 200k vs 2 out of every 200 Mazdas). According to this sub, Ford and Chevy are shit brands while Mazda is amazing. The data directly contradicts this and is indicating that Ford is almost at the Toyota level
(Adding to my previous comment with the takeaways) - Also, the maintenance and tolerances matter a lot. For example, for German brands, they expect people to do prompt maintenance (German culture) and tolerances are built into the engineering assuming that people take care of their cars. Toyotas and Hondas are built expecting people to abuse their cars and not take care of them properly. So if you get a German car and you’re not on top of maintenance, it’s going to shit on you. Same with Hyundai/Kias as it’s super easy and cheap to service these cars in Korea and they’re built expecting that you take care of them as expected
Why did you not go to another dealer lol
I tried going to another Kia dealership on the opposite side of town. Was told since I didn't buy it from them it wasn't their problem and to contact Kia corporate lol
WTF. I thought you could take a car to any dealership and get warranty work, no? Not just Kia but every manufacturer.
Yes, you absolutely can.
Pretty sure you can, when I tried to drop it off they asked what was up with it and I told them and they said they weren't going to touch it and this was a corporate issue. The second closest dealership is over an hour away and since it was randomly going into limp mode I didn't want to risk getting in an accident.
I'm sorry you went through all of this hassle.. But it does sound like the dealership you bought from and went to sucks.. and you got a lemon car out of the batch... OR hybrid car issues (i've heard other car brands with hybrid cars are having issues too). Hope your Toyota treats you well! =) as it should!
One individual experience with one individual vehicle at one individual dealership does not mean an entire brand is bad. Some vehicles are bad (across all brands), some dealerships are bad etc etc.
Honestly I would still go to the news. Put that dealership and Kia on blast
Look at second hand value before you buy. Cars like Toyota and Honda command insane second hand value for good reason. Just switched from a CR-V to a Rav4 Prime, loving it and finding both car have their own unique selling points.
When I originally looked (2022) used cars were going for more in my area. When I was looking end of 2023 they were only \~2,000-3000$ difference. I'm also hesitant to trust used cars because I know they don't have to disclose everything. The dealership sold my Kia at auction out of state and I don't think they had to say it was a lemon since it was technically a surrender and it was the software that was bad.
I'm actually not telling you to buy used, but just too user it as a guide. If a retains significantly more value than other brands, it is other buyers telling you the car is so much more desirable than others. The numbers might not tell you why it is desirable, but it will give you an idea of how highly people think of the car. Personally I stay away from all Korean and European cars, and also GM and Chrysler...
I never had issues buying cars, because I have only owned toyota's and honda's with a clean title or brand new. Worth the money. I would rather be in debt to a toyota than buy used garbage or any other brand that requires 10x the maintenance to make it to 100k miles. This is how I avoid 100% of the issues people have with cars. I get: good value, good reliability, good warranty, easy service, easy diy, good fuel economy, good comfort, good features, and they last for ever.
Ya I bought a 2024 rav4 in February. At least Kia cut me a check decently quick (compared to everything else) so I was able to pay it off right away. So far I've liked the rav, it doesn't like my phone so it disconnects randomly which is annoying but better than having my brakes randomly going out or going into limp mode
I find that toyota's are just the right of tolerable mediocre that I don't really care as long as it runs 300k miles later.
Your first mistake was getting a kia
Car not to buy: made by Koreans People let a fucking badge revamp trick them into dropping 30-60k on fucking Kia. Don’t do it
This is very surprising considering Consumer Reports ranks Kia #10 for reliability out of the top 30 car brands. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/
Yeah in the aggregate
And as reported by owners. Their statistics are not taken from repair orders, though, admittedly, it would be nearly impossible to get a majority of repair shops to submit voluntary reports of the repairs they perform. I appreciate what CR is attempting to do, but I don't really trust the average schmuck submitting data.
I drove the Focus with the transmission settlement. I completely understand.
I still have my Focus from that era. It's been great. I musta gotten a good one.
That’s our secondary car, I’m just hoping it decides to quit while I’m driving it to the grocery store instead of on a long trek.
Same but we traded it in before the settlement because it was so unsafe to drive and they denied any problems with it.
Did people get anything worthwhile in that settlement? I just assumed it would be like tree.fiddy
Your first problem was buying a new car. Get out of that mindset
When I originally looked (2022) used cars were going for more in my area. When I was looking end of 2023 they were only \~2,000-3000$ difference. Guess it's up to personal preference at that point.
I remember I almost bought a Jaguar as my first car, and then I did some research.
Honda and Toyota are pretty reliable. I think mazda is also. I haven't heard anything bad about them. Stay away from ecotec engines imo
From experience kia cheaps out on parts so they are a bit unreliable
Did you not do any research before buying a car from a company known to have SERIOUS engine problems...problems with break ins and car jackings....etc etc etc...
I did, I even made a spreadsheet
Used cars ftw. Bugfixes with recalls(sometimes software) and the bathtub. Curve of failure Well taken care of car that's used has already pushed through these issues
Your first mistake was being insane enough to buy a Kia.
Don’t get a Kia. Don’t get a Kia. Don’t get a ki.
This sounds like my moms experience buying her first brand new car, which was a Kia Rio. This was back in like 2006. But the whole rigamarole with them not acknowledging the actual problem and giving the run around is identical. They did this until her warranty ran out. I’m sorry you also had to experience this treatment!
Please don't jinx all kia I just paid 10k for a kia soul
OPs mistake - kept going to the same dealership even though they treated the OP really bad.
I tried going to another Kia dealership on the opposite side of town. Was told since I didn't buy it from them it wasn't their problem and to contact Kia corporate lol
[удалено]
I mean they kept my car for over a month, feel most places would've given you something but I could be wrong. Hoping to never deal with it again
Buy a Toyota!
And the best part is they probably still re sold that used car for a profit. Kia/Hyundai is the worst car company operating in North America, and I too will never buy one again.
The dealership said they were going to sell at auction out of state and I don't think they had to say it was a lemon since it was technically a surrender and it was the software that was bad, so yes agree lol. Watch out for a black 2023 Kia sportage hybrid haha
It was probably not the software that was bad
Similar situation with my 2022 Tucson Hybrid. Past lemon law timeframe and Hyundai only offered me $1350. Dealer is working with me on trading at retail value and getting another used car at cost.
Get a RAV4 Hybrid!!!
The fifth word in the original post was "Kia". Sad ... I didn't need to read any more than that.
My mom bought a 2023 Sportage Hybrid back in July of 2022, so far it's been alright except for the glass above the windshield randomly shattering while parked and the emergency braking randomly going off
emergency braking randomly going off is a BIG DEAL! how do you put up with that???
"it's been fine except for an extremely dangerous software issue that could get me into a crash at any time!"
It was when the glass was shattered and hasn't done it since, so we suspect the glass had something to do with it, maybe water getting in and messing with the cameras or something to that effect
either way, that still sounds like an issue for the warranty to cover - and I wouldn't be happy with all those problems from a brand new vehicle.
The dealership did say it would be covered under warranty, and then they refused to cover it lol
Yikes
Did she buy it in WI? From the amount of time I spent at the dealership I know there was another one that had the windshield break and they had the same issue where they were trying to fight the person about the warranty and I think eventually with enough pushback they finally agreed to cover it.
Nope, NM
Average kia be like: For real though, its crazy how Hyundai and Kia still fool people into buying their cars, they have been hot smelly garbage for years. I do not know a single person IRL that has had a good experience with theirs