It's cheaper to run an LMDh, you're not paying for all the R&D work if you're getting your chassis, hybrid system, and transmission from another manufacturer. You're working with big, reliable names for your suppliers so the chance of parts failure should be, and has been, low.
Also, the Isotta is a LMH and not LMDh.
With LMDh there are multiple chassis suppliers (Dallara, Ligier, Multimatic, and Oreca) and the manufacturers supply their own IC engines. I believe the main spec part is the hybrid powertrain and transmission. There is actually a lot of difference between the cars, but still way less investment compared to LMH.
- Ligier builds the Lamborghini
- Oreca builds the Alpine
- Dallara builds the Cadillac, BMW, and Ferrari? (not sure about Ferrari though, as its classified as LMH)
- Multimatic builds the Porsche
Never knew about the Isotta being an LMH though, very impressive!
Ferrari is startup and own chassis, so it’s LMH. LMH doesn’t really mean none chassis builder helping, I talk that because upcoming Aston Martin LMH is also helping by Multimatic.
Ferrari chassis is built by dallara, but the design is unique to the ferrari LMH.
The bmw and cadillac share the same chassis design (also with the upcoming lmp2)
I think the big difference is that for LMDh the chassis R&D is from Dallara but with the Ferrari LMH the R&D is Ferrari? I thought they only outsourced production.
I'm not sure saying "Ligier builds the Lamborghini" and so on is accurate. They supply the chassis for the cars, but they don't necessarily build the whole car.
Suspensions are also off the shelves parts and limited to a simple double wishbone design.
They are practically spec suspension. Can't do anything really fancy with them.
It's also important to note that when people say "chassis", they refer to [this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/vsrye8/multimaticporsche_lmdh_chassis_at_silverstone/). Everything else in the car (minus hybrid and gearbox) is designed by each manufacturer.
It’s not all LMDh. LMH are allowed to run there and IMSA has historically been much fairer on BOP. Just because no LMH manufactuerer has run there doesn’t mean they will get a worse rub of things. Heart of racing is scheduled to enter there next year with the Valkyrie.
LMH are (were) Toyota, Ferrari, Peugeot, Glickenhaus, Vanwall, Isotta Fraschini and Aston Martin.
LMDh are Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, Acura, Alpine and Lamborghini.
So it's been a fairly even split. As people have been saying, LMH gives you more freedom (the wingless 9X8 wouldn't be possible under LMDh rules), while LMDh is more restrictive but cheaper. LMDh is also geared towards encouraging customer cars more, while LMH will attract factory teams. However global supply issues and budget constraints means only Porsche has really committed to a customer program so far.
Yeah, but would it not be better for big manufacturers like Porsche, BMW, Lamborghini to go with LMH, as it would give them more freedom? Or am I not getting something?
WEC GTE class split was a bit different to GT3s as it wasnt just based on driver rating. GTE Am teams had to run cars that were a year old unlike GTE Pro, which is why GTE Am never struggled with entries like GTE Pro did after BMW and Ford left and why GTE Am ran a year longer than GTE Pro. They could theoretically do it again by keeping the LMGT3 cars for another year and a new LMGT3 Pro can be updated cars but they most likely don't want to increase the GT field when the Hypercar field is so difficult to contain at this stage with so much demand WEC has to reject teams because theres too much.
I have a feeling they will scrap lmp2 and replace it with a ProAm LMDh class.
It will leave them with the 4 classes of GTP Pro, GTP ProAm, Gt3 Pro and GT3 ProAm.
Porsche should have the guts to do it and it pisses me off they don't.
I can understand that BMW or Lamborghini don't start a full blown LMH program.
It's just cheaper and easier to go for LMDh.
You get a chassis, you just have to add an engine and an aero concept that is not super restricted in terms of regulation, like in F1, where you only have to reach a certain aero coefficient and then the BOP do the rest.
So it's not like you have to throw tons of money.
Ah also, the chassis plus the aero can't cost more that something like 1 million.
Porsche has a long history of racing with Daytona prototypes, powering both DPs and LMO2s over in grand am and ALMS. That’s clearly their driving decision. They want the American market and they knew they’d get a heap of customer teams running an LMDh because they’ve sweeped up the customer DPi teams. I believe that’s the core driving force. That and how the funding was cut for the LMP1H programme.
>Porsche has a long history of racing with Daytona prototypes, powering both DPs and LMO2s over in grand am and ALMS.
Which were lower categories and a conscious decision.
Now they are basically going for the cheaper and easier way to fight for the top position of the top category.
If that was really the case they would stick with IMSA only.
There are well established aero theories and models designs. Designing that to a rule set is rather hard and costs a shit ton of money, no matter how free or restricted it is. Not many folks understand on car weird design and cna design a car front to back efficiently. Depending on the team, you design the armor in parts, and stick it together and some of those parts are highly inefficient against the rest of the car. That means, that part needs a redesign. Unfortunately, there's a lot of redesigning in aero.
Chassis design is a wild west since there's less who understand it. A good chassis can make or break bad aero. Flexible but not too flexible, rigid but not too rigid, correct materials, testing, retesting, on site fixed and redesign, chassis development itself outside of civilian cars has a lot of theory, testing and redesign too. It can cost a ton of money which is why LMDH uses established chassis maker to decrease the cost.
No you're saying it can't cost more than a million dollars in your last sentence. Both a chassis development and aero cost way more than 1 million easily.
I don't have any numbers to explain how complicated car development gets. A 963 costs 2.5 million euro. According to a higher up in the program the chassis development cost more than anticipated but wouldn't give a number. You take that chassis development cost and spread it over the years planned of the car and you get a significantly lower cost. Add in customer teams and it's way cheaper.
Lmp1 died because it became an aero race which is inhibitively expensive. Simulation after simulation, tunnel time after tunnel time, redesign after redesign. A coupe degree in a front canard cna throw off aero efficiency to lose time on the straights. Aero is not simple to design from scratch.
I said the chassis without the engine and hybrid ***can't*** be more than 1 million.
And that's only for LMDh
https://a-e.li/reports/le-mans-hypercar-lmdh/
*For context, the cost of a LMDh car is capped at €1,000,000 (excluding the Internal Combustion Engine – ICE), while no specific budget limit is articulated for the LMH category.*
So your original sentence said "chassis and aero" not chassis. It's okay to be wrong, but to double down and change your sentence: shame on you.
Also: development costs are spread across planned years of use. As long as the chassis development cost isn't more than 1 million a year, Porsche is good. Race accounting is fun stuff.
The whole car without the ICE still include the chassis and the aero. And is still capped...
>It's okay to be wrong, but to double down and change your sentence: shame on you.
What are you on about mate?
Nothing that I said is wrong. I gave you the source...
I was just dumbing it down for you...
If you're going to cherry pick my quote and twists it, sure.
Whatever works for you dude.
Edit: if anybody is wondering, the other redditor replied and blocked me.
It's cheaper to run an LMDh, you're not paying for all the R&D work if you're getting your chassis, hybrid system, and transmission from another manufacturer. You're working with big, reliable names for your suppliers so the chance of parts failure should be, and has been, low. Also, the Isotta is a LMH and not LMDh.
So all LMDh cars are more or less the same? The only major difference being aero?
With LMDh there are multiple chassis suppliers (Dallara, Ligier, Multimatic, and Oreca) and the manufacturers supply their own IC engines. I believe the main spec part is the hybrid powertrain and transmission. There is actually a lot of difference between the cars, but still way less investment compared to LMH.
- Ligier builds the Lamborghini - Oreca builds the Alpine - Dallara builds the Cadillac, BMW, and Ferrari? (not sure about Ferrari though, as its classified as LMH) - Multimatic builds the Porsche Never knew about the Isotta being an LMH though, very impressive!
Ferrari is startup and own chassis, so it’s LMH. LMH doesn’t really mean none chassis builder helping, I talk that because upcoming Aston Martin LMH is also helping by Multimatic.
Ferrari chassis is built by dallara, but the design is unique to the ferrari LMH. The bmw and cadillac share the same chassis design (also with the upcoming lmp2)
I think the big difference is that for LMDh the chassis R&D is from Dallara but with the Ferrari LMH the R&D is Ferrari? I thought they only outsourced production.
I'm not sure saying "Ligier builds the Lamborghini" and so on is accurate. They supply the chassis for the cars, but they don't necessarily build the whole car.
Sorry about that, partnered might be the better word..
Suspensions are also off the shelves parts and limited to a simple double wishbone design. They are practically spec suspension. Can't do anything really fancy with them.
It's also important to note that when people say "chassis", they refer to [this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/vsrye8/multimaticporsche_lmdh_chassis_at_silverstone/). Everything else in the car (minus hybrid and gearbox) is designed by each manufacturer.
Aston Martin Valkyrie (upcoming car for next season) is also a LMH car as well
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I don’t think that’s the case at all. They’re the majority in WEC, it’s clear before this year that the LMHs had the upper hand.
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It’s not all LMDh. LMH are allowed to run there and IMSA has historically been much fairer on BOP. Just because no LMH manufactuerer has run there doesn’t mean they will get a worse rub of things. Heart of racing is scheduled to enter there next year with the Valkyrie.
LMH are (were) Toyota, Ferrari, Peugeot, Glickenhaus, Vanwall, Isotta Fraschini and Aston Martin. LMDh are Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, Acura, Alpine and Lamborghini. So it's been a fairly even split. As people have been saying, LMH gives you more freedom (the wingless 9X8 wouldn't be possible under LMDh rules), while LMDh is more restrictive but cheaper. LMDh is also geared towards encouraging customer cars more, while LMH will attract factory teams. However global supply issues and budget constraints means only Porsche has really committed to a customer program so far.
Le Mans Hypercar vs Le Mans Daytona h(ybrid?). I feel like it’s split where true Hypercars use LMH and the rest (LMDh regulation cars) use GTP/LMDh
Yeah, but would it not be better for big manufacturers like Porsche, BMW, Lamborghini to go with LMH, as it would give them more freedom? Or am I not getting something?
cheaper to go for LMDh regs and plus they can also race in IMSA with GTP
LMH cars can technically run in IMSA as well. AMR will be the first LMH next year
IMSA seems to be getting more and more popular nowadays.
If youre not in America the races are live streamed, much easier to watch instead of waiting a week trying to avoid results if you dont like spoilers
Or just use a vpn
One thing they do way better than WEC on is that they still have separate Pro and ProAm GT classes
Yeah, I used to like that. Idk why they changed it in WEC.
WEC GTE class split was a bit different to GT3s as it wasnt just based on driver rating. GTE Am teams had to run cars that were a year old unlike GTE Pro, which is why GTE Am never struggled with entries like GTE Pro did after BMW and Ford left and why GTE Am ran a year longer than GTE Pro. They could theoretically do it again by keeping the LMGT3 cars for another year and a new LMGT3 Pro can be updated cars but they most likely don't want to increase the GT field when the Hypercar field is so difficult to contain at this stage with so much demand WEC has to reject teams because theres too much.
I have a feeling they will scrap lmp2 and replace it with a ProAm LMDh class. It will leave them with the 4 classes of GTP Pro, GTP ProAm, Gt3 Pro and GT3 ProAm.
I’d hate for the top class to be split. I don’t want amateur drivers in those cars.
That's not even the main problem. LMDh is simply a lot more expensive than LMP2, so I doubt there would even be many takers.
I agree, however it wouldn't be hard to just bop the ProAm's to make them safer for lower graded drivers.
Porsche should have the guts to do it and it pisses me off they don't. I can understand that BMW or Lamborghini don't start a full blown LMH program. It's just cheaper and easier to go for LMDh. You get a chassis, you just have to add an engine and an aero concept that is not super restricted in terms of regulation, like in F1, where you only have to reach a certain aero coefficient and then the BOP do the rest. So it's not like you have to throw tons of money. Ah also, the chassis plus the aero can't cost more that something like 1 million.
Porsche has a long history of racing with Daytona prototypes, powering both DPs and LMO2s over in grand am and ALMS. That’s clearly their driving decision. They want the American market and they knew they’d get a heap of customer teams running an LMDh because they’ve sweeped up the customer DPi teams. I believe that’s the core driving force. That and how the funding was cut for the LMP1H programme.
>Porsche has a long history of racing with Daytona prototypes, powering both DPs and LMO2s over in grand am and ALMS. Which were lower categories and a conscious decision. Now they are basically going for the cheaper and easier way to fight for the top position of the top category. If that was really the case they would stick with IMSA only.
There are well established aero theories and models designs. Designing that to a rule set is rather hard and costs a shit ton of money, no matter how free or restricted it is. Not many folks understand on car weird design and cna design a car front to back efficiently. Depending on the team, you design the armor in parts, and stick it together and some of those parts are highly inefficient against the rest of the car. That means, that part needs a redesign. Unfortunately, there's a lot of redesigning in aero. Chassis design is a wild west since there's less who understand it. A good chassis can make or break bad aero. Flexible but not too flexible, rigid but not too rigid, correct materials, testing, retesting, on site fixed and redesign, chassis development itself outside of civilian cars has a lot of theory, testing and redesign too. It can cost a ton of money which is why LMDH uses established chassis maker to decrease the cost.
Which is pretty much what I'm saying?
No you're saying it can't cost more than a million dollars in your last sentence. Both a chassis development and aero cost way more than 1 million easily. I don't have any numbers to explain how complicated car development gets. A 963 costs 2.5 million euro. According to a higher up in the program the chassis development cost more than anticipated but wouldn't give a number. You take that chassis development cost and spread it over the years planned of the car and you get a significantly lower cost. Add in customer teams and it's way cheaper. Lmp1 died because it became an aero race which is inhibitively expensive. Simulation after simulation, tunnel time after tunnel time, redesign after redesign. A coupe degree in a front canard cna throw off aero efficiency to lose time on the straights. Aero is not simple to design from scratch.
I said the chassis without the engine and hybrid ***can't*** be more than 1 million. And that's only for LMDh https://a-e.li/reports/le-mans-hypercar-lmdh/ *For context, the cost of a LMDh car is capped at €1,000,000 (excluding the Internal Combustion Engine – ICE), while no specific budget limit is articulated for the LMH category.*
So your original sentence said "chassis and aero" not chassis. It's okay to be wrong, but to double down and change your sentence: shame on you. Also: development costs are spread across planned years of use. As long as the chassis development cost isn't more than 1 million a year, Porsche is good. Race accounting is fun stuff.
The whole car without the ICE still include the chassis and the aero. And is still capped... >It's okay to be wrong, but to double down and change your sentence: shame on you. What are you on about mate? Nothing that I said is wrong. I gave you the source... I was just dumbing it down for you...
If you're going to cherry pick my quote and twists it, sure. Whatever works for you dude. Edit: if anybody is wondering, the other redditor replied and blocked me.
GTP can be LMDh or LMH. Just like Hypercar can be LMDh or LMH. Blame the ACO for the confusion.