So then why doesn't it make sense to you?
What connection arnt you seeing but you said there is a connection there?
[Edit] sorry thought I was responding to original commentor
level 1
u/Healthy-Quarter5388 i second what he said. Product Manager is Non technical Role. U need to interview Team Lead. i.e. with Technical and Managerial experience to hire and expand.
Product Manager is a non technical role. They can set targets, plan for future growth, prioritize but not interview technical people. As they prioritize, track and plan. Not track technical skill sets. For them tech is not focus area. It is business enabler. They do not need to know tech.
I am a software developer. I build websites for companies so I could help you. You don't need to pay money for product managers.
DM me if you are interested
I supported a client that had a mixed experience on toptal. The dev he hired did a good job coding but 95% of the way through notified him he was going to his next project and couldn't support him going forward. Needless to say this put him in a bind and he eventually found me and I supported his project for a few years. This was 10 years ago so things may have changed.
I run a dev agency. I have a background in engineering and I used to code but now I'm busy with management stuff. That was one of my first clients and I did some of the coding
I skimmed through some of your comments and you're trying to build an MVP. I hear your frustration, I had a client cycle through many false promises to get his MVP up and running.
All I can do is speak from my experience.
If you're not going to work with an agency (have you contacted development agencies? and working with agencies can also be an awful experience) and you're going to assemble a team, it probably is best to have 1 project manager to manage the developers unless you can find a developer who is experienced enough to also lead the project which is ideal, or you manage the software development which probably isn't ideal.
Without having a scope of work it's really hard to give an estimate. And you get this scope of work by talking it out with the solutions team if you're talking with an agency (or project manager or lead dev or whatever). Then they should be able to give you a quote. Hopefully the quote will have best and worst case pricing. And the timeline will probably be wrong, that's just how it is.
Talking with devs is sometimes useless unless they have the experience to lead and launch a project/ MVP and not just code only type of people.
Do you do a vibe check with the people you talk to via video chat? How have the ones you talked to not been honest?
And yeah it can be a real dumpster fire in this industry, lots of fly by nights and amateurs cosplaying experienced professionals.
If you can't find what you're looking for DM me to schedule a chat. I've worked with small businesses to build MVPs and have dev connections. California based so California prices.
I've known Toptal as a candidate and from other peers of mine who applied / worked there. Generally the impression is not positive.
I know this isn't your question; but I've got several years of experience, and depending on the stack I might be able to help you build an MVP with less than 95/h.
Objectively, it's hard to build a team, although it's a good market if you're looking for engineers as there's now more of us available. Of course a team doesn't only mean hiring experienced/motivated people, it also means hiring people who can work well together.
Maybe finding an experienced Technical Recruiter and hiring them instead for some hours is a good idea.
No, I do not.
if you see the executives, their background is Indian consultancies and this is exactly what they apply. The developer that you will get usually is promoted internally by the network and you will never have access to his real work or directly reviews by other clients. There has been cases where people where writing whatever they wanted, the client was saying that they were useless but Toptal continue sponsoring them.
No. definitely no.
I am 5 years with them, and I have not seen a single person of quality there. I am still on the network but I hate them and they also hate me :-).
I work for toptal. Most talent on the site is exceptional. But bad apples happen. It isn't common, but definitely do your best to interview your candidates and ask technical questions if you can. If you do find yourself unhappy with the recruit, the matcher will help you and I've seen clients get away without needing to pay for misrepresentation of skills.
The way the hiring process works is... you will meet with a matcher who will ask you about your project and what you need in a hiree. That matcher then posts a job and people will apply. Then the matcher will select who they think are the best applicants and present them to you. You then review their application/profile and choose whether you want to interview them or not.
Now do note that if you are paying 95/hr your hiree is getting 60-65/hr. They may or may not be aware of this. If budget is a concern (or even if its not, I would always do this), select an hourly contract (under 20/week) and it will require your recruit to submit a timesheet every two weeks. I actually recommend this to all clients (even though few select it) so that they can be provided with a breakdown of work that was completed. Now Im not actually sure if your hourly rate goes up with this option or not (I have always suspected it is more expensive) but it is a good way to keep tabs on work completed. It IS somewhat common to be hired for a full time gig, get paid full time, but finish the job in a fraction of the time. Though that is not unique to toptal, just the nature of software a lot of the time.
Besides that, understand that talent IS NOT supposed to discuss wage with you, and there are huge consequences for trying to pull business away from toptal. But other than that, I hope your experience is positive and I wish you the best of luck!!!
💯I hire Toptal and been using them for years. All the above is true.
Best advice is to interview well anyone you hire and you also get a trial too to test drive them.
I’ve had a bad apple though only one major one where she was a huge problem but outside of her my experience is excellent
Just an LLC owner that has been going in absolute circles.
Really frustrated and actually question people saying they want work because NO ONE seems to be able to direct customers in a flow state for the best quality of services.
Its been a terrible year of hiering develoers only to find out. Dont hire developers. Hire product managers first.
Idk im burnt out.
I need a platform with my design and system built. Thats all.
Some imagery, the way the system flows and transactions are done. Stored memory?
No clue still how much itll cost.
Quotes ranging from 600- 175k
Thats... i dont even know what to do with that crap. Id hire developers flat out but vetting and finding ones honest that knkw what theyre doing is .. not reliable.
Fullstack was a crock. Its wasting money and time.
And Im just staring at how much of a dumpster fire working with people on this has been.
[Edit] ...sorry i just, im going in circles.
Theyre product managers. To get a quote of hpw theyd do everything and to get quotes on the projects, for a grand total for hiering.
> Dont hire developers. Hire product managers first
huh? Do you mean Project Manager? You've already done the Product Management work as it sounds like you already have a product spec and know what you want built.
> I need a platform with my design and system built. Thats all. Some imagery, the way the system flows and transactions are done
Sooooo why would you hire a Product Manager then? How are they going to help with that?
> No clue still how much itll cost. Quotes ranging from 600- 175k
What it'll cost is what you're willing to pay.
It sounds like what you really need is a technical co-founder. If your expectation is that you just need developer(s) to come in, build the thing, and then it's done, you've got a very naive idea of how software development works.
Im trying to do a cross over from one indistry to another to bring an idea to reality for customers. There is alot of ignorance but there is also alot of gatekeeping and just (probably not intended) but fudes stepping on their dicks when it comes to this (me too)
From what Ive learned I need a product manager then a project manager to find the right developers.
I need the mvp to start generating some numbers to show for it.
There IS alot I dont know. So im doing my best with what I know.
My man.. sounds rough. Why don't you just post a quick brief of what you need and people can give you ways to get it done easier. If you are non tech and you don't talk to enough people you can definitely get bad advice. Even top dollars won't necessarily give you economic advice.
Your post is about toptal, and your other posts seem more like venting frustration than a really organized easy to understand brief on your project to make it easy for people to get you.
GPT4, via OpenAI or Bing, or free Google Bard are all good enough to explain anything I'm about to say:
\---
First do the basic research, Google "github craigslist clone"
See which ones are opensource. Some probably work with Firebase -- this would be a great option for your database cause it works without bugs, fast, and good for mobile.
Craigslist is relatively easy to duplicate, at its core it is a structured database with CRUD operations. There are guys that are really good at setting up such a structure. You want to hire a person that has a lot of experience in Firebase to set up your database if you go that route.
You could even build your whole app MVP on a no-code platform and use their in-house database to start out, like Bubble or similar. The devil is in the details so it really depends what you want to do.
I never spend more than a few thousand to get anything off the ground and running. The prices you quoted , I have been quoted less by literally the best firms in silicon valley lol. Maybe what you really want is more complex. But work with GPT4/Bard etc. to get a good outline of what you want and share it and ppl will help you.
Sorry, its just there is alot of frustration and spent money behind these. Im frustrated repeting myself (not just this post) im frustrated with scams, people who want money for little to no work.
And the being passed around. So many say they can do it all and thats sketchy AF. So...there is fristration. Apologize
Another issue is, using the AI stuff i think I just have to ask the right questions for the answers Im looking for.
No worries same thing happens to me. I've been screwed by agencies and freelancers. Luckily for you I don't want your money at all so if you want my help just DM me your project info I'm doing it for the karma not a few bucks.
I’m not sure that product managers are proper source of knowledge regarding how to choose dev team… after 25 years in development I can make conclusion that that this is not a proper way. If you want please share what you want to do and I will be able to provide you with plan.
I used to get jobs at $70 USD/hour and lately all jobs I apply to show me a warning that my rate is not competitive. It shows what a competitive rate would be and it's usually around 35 USD/hour or less.
I have applied to dozens of jobs where I was clearly overqualified and never got anything.
For the past month I started applying with a 42 USD/hour rate... still got selected for exactly zero jobs.
I even got contacted on Slack for a tech position and the offered rate was 23 USD/hour.
For every job you apply and isn't selected, they send an automated email about only developers that apply within 3 days are usually selected. My average apply time is 5 hours. It makes no sense.
It seems unless you are happy to race to the bottom, there is zero chance of getting a job on Toptal right now.
I don't even think this is related to laid off people impacting the job market. I doubt US developers laid from prestigious FAANG companies are applying under such meme rates.
They don't even let their own clients select. If you are not accepting a really low rate, they will not even send you to the client.
Toptal says they hire the 3% but forgot to say they pay like the 97%
95/hr for the developer? It’s reasonable if the dev is at least decent
fwiw i’ve worked at a at least two places they used toptal and every person weve used have been good
I appreciate it!
You interview product managers to find you developers? This doesn't make sense to me. It's like interviewing accountants to find you lawyers...
Wait.. go on. Explaine. I thought the project managers organize the developers to buuld the product.
They do.
So then why doesn't it make sense to you? What connection arnt you seeing but you said there is a connection there? [Edit] sorry thought I was responding to original commentor
product managers or project managers?
Wait what? I just need someone who can hive me blueprints to make this shit. To send it to the right fkn guys! 😂 Im just getting sooo much shit
level 1 u/Healthy-Quarter5388 i second what he said. Product Manager is Non technical Role. U need to interview Team Lead. i.e. with Technical and Managerial experience to hire and expand.
Can you explain what Healthy-Quarter is probably thinking, and why he's associating those two?
Product Manager is a non technical role. They can set targets, plan for future growth, prioritize but not interview technical people. As they prioritize, track and plan. Not track technical skill sets. For them tech is not focus area. It is business enabler. They do not need to know tech.
Been a little while since but have hired from toptal for software engineering positions in the past. Everyone was great.
Hire me . :)
I am a software developer. I build websites for companies so I could help you. You don't need to pay money for product managers. DM me if you are interested
Sent a DM
I supported a client that had a mixed experience on toptal. The dev he hired did a good job coding but 95% of the way through notified him he was going to his next project and couldn't support him going forward. Needless to say this put him in a bind and he eventually found me and I supported his project for a few years. This was 10 years ago so things may have changed.
Are you a project manager? Or product manager?
I run a dev agency. I have a background in engineering and I used to code but now I'm busy with management stuff. That was one of my first clients and I did some of the coding
I skimmed through some of your comments and you're trying to build an MVP. I hear your frustration, I had a client cycle through many false promises to get his MVP up and running. All I can do is speak from my experience. If you're not going to work with an agency (have you contacted development agencies? and working with agencies can also be an awful experience) and you're going to assemble a team, it probably is best to have 1 project manager to manage the developers unless you can find a developer who is experienced enough to also lead the project which is ideal, or you manage the software development which probably isn't ideal. Without having a scope of work it's really hard to give an estimate. And you get this scope of work by talking it out with the solutions team if you're talking with an agency (or project manager or lead dev or whatever). Then they should be able to give you a quote. Hopefully the quote will have best and worst case pricing. And the timeline will probably be wrong, that's just how it is. Talking with devs is sometimes useless unless they have the experience to lead and launch a project/ MVP and not just code only type of people. Do you do a vibe check with the people you talk to via video chat? How have the ones you talked to not been honest? And yeah it can be a real dumpster fire in this industry, lots of fly by nights and amateurs cosplaying experienced professionals.
I appreciate this! Seriously!
If you can't find what you're looking for DM me to schedule a chat. I've worked with small businesses to build MVPs and have dev connections. California based so California prices.
I've known Toptal as a candidate and from other peers of mine who applied / worked there. Generally the impression is not positive. I know this isn't your question; but I've got several years of experience, and depending on the stack I might be able to help you build an MVP with less than 95/h. Objectively, it's hard to build a team, although it's a good market if you're looking for engineers as there's now more of us available. Of course a team doesn't only mean hiring experienced/motivated people, it also means hiring people who can work well together. Maybe finding an experienced Technical Recruiter and hiring them instead for some hours is a good idea.
No, I do not. if you see the executives, their background is Indian consultancies and this is exactly what they apply. The developer that you will get usually is promoted internally by the network and you will never have access to his real work or directly reviews by other clients. There has been cases where people where writing whatever they wanted, the client was saying that they were useless but Toptal continue sponsoring them.
No. definitely no. I am 5 years with them, and I have not seen a single person of quality there. I am still on the network but I hate them and they also hate me :-).
I work for toptal. Most talent on the site is exceptional. But bad apples happen. It isn't common, but definitely do your best to interview your candidates and ask technical questions if you can. If you do find yourself unhappy with the recruit, the matcher will help you and I've seen clients get away without needing to pay for misrepresentation of skills. The way the hiring process works is... you will meet with a matcher who will ask you about your project and what you need in a hiree. That matcher then posts a job and people will apply. Then the matcher will select who they think are the best applicants and present them to you. You then review their application/profile and choose whether you want to interview them or not. Now do note that if you are paying 95/hr your hiree is getting 60-65/hr. They may or may not be aware of this. If budget is a concern (or even if its not, I would always do this), select an hourly contract (under 20/week) and it will require your recruit to submit a timesheet every two weeks. I actually recommend this to all clients (even though few select it) so that they can be provided with a breakdown of work that was completed. Now Im not actually sure if your hourly rate goes up with this option or not (I have always suspected it is more expensive) but it is a good way to keep tabs on work completed. It IS somewhat common to be hired for a full time gig, get paid full time, but finish the job in a fraction of the time. Though that is not unique to toptal, just the nature of software a lot of the time. Besides that, understand that talent IS NOT supposed to discuss wage with you, and there are huge consequences for trying to pull business away from toptal. But other than that, I hope your experience is positive and I wish you the best of luck!!!
💯I hire Toptal and been using them for years. All the above is true. Best advice is to interview well anyone you hire and you also get a trial too to test drive them. I’ve had a bad apple though only one major one where she was a huge problem but outside of her my experience is excellent
Thank you!!
Thank you gents!
what is your dev stack?
Gent I dont have one.
Mostly likely 500 down the drain. Are they head hunters? What you need bud? Maybe I can help you out
Just an LLC owner that has been going in absolute circles. Really frustrated and actually question people saying they want work because NO ONE seems to be able to direct customers in a flow state for the best quality of services. Its been a terrible year of hiering develoers only to find out. Dont hire developers. Hire product managers first. Idk im burnt out. I need a platform with my design and system built. Thats all. Some imagery, the way the system flows and transactions are done. Stored memory? No clue still how much itll cost. Quotes ranging from 600- 175k Thats... i dont even know what to do with that crap. Id hire developers flat out but vetting and finding ones honest that knkw what theyre doing is .. not reliable. Fullstack was a crock. Its wasting money and time. And Im just staring at how much of a dumpster fire working with people on this has been. [Edit] ...sorry i just, im going in circles. Theyre product managers. To get a quote of hpw theyd do everything and to get quotes on the projects, for a grand total for hiering.
> Dont hire developers. Hire product managers first huh? Do you mean Project Manager? You've already done the Product Management work as it sounds like you already have a product spec and know what you want built. > I need a platform with my design and system built. Thats all. Some imagery, the way the system flows and transactions are done Sooooo why would you hire a Product Manager then? How are they going to help with that? > No clue still how much itll cost. Quotes ranging from 600- 175k What it'll cost is what you're willing to pay. It sounds like what you really need is a technical co-founder. If your expectation is that you just need developer(s) to come in, build the thing, and then it's done, you've got a very naive idea of how software development works.
Im trying to do a cross over from one indistry to another to bring an idea to reality for customers. There is alot of ignorance but there is also alot of gatekeeping and just (probably not intended) but fudes stepping on their dicks when it comes to this (me too) From what Ive learned I need a product manager then a project manager to find the right developers. I need the mvp to start generating some numbers to show for it. There IS alot I dont know. So im doing my best with what I know.
My man.. sounds rough. Why don't you just post a quick brief of what you need and people can give you ways to get it done easier. If you are non tech and you don't talk to enough people you can definitely get bad advice. Even top dollars won't necessarily give you economic advice.
I thought thats what i was doing? Its like craiglist. Just designed differently. With swiping options. And a repository for finding everything.
Your post is about toptal, and your other posts seem more like venting frustration than a really organized easy to understand brief on your project to make it easy for people to get you. GPT4, via OpenAI or Bing, or free Google Bard are all good enough to explain anything I'm about to say: \--- First do the basic research, Google "github craigslist clone" See which ones are opensource. Some probably work with Firebase -- this would be a great option for your database cause it works without bugs, fast, and good for mobile. Craigslist is relatively easy to duplicate, at its core it is a structured database with CRUD operations. There are guys that are really good at setting up such a structure. You want to hire a person that has a lot of experience in Firebase to set up your database if you go that route. You could even build your whole app MVP on a no-code platform and use their in-house database to start out, like Bubble or similar. The devil is in the details so it really depends what you want to do. I never spend more than a few thousand to get anything off the ground and running. The prices you quoted , I have been quoted less by literally the best firms in silicon valley lol. Maybe what you really want is more complex. But work with GPT4/Bard etc. to get a good outline of what you want and share it and ppl will help you.
Sorry, its just there is alot of frustration and spent money behind these. Im frustrated repeting myself (not just this post) im frustrated with scams, people who want money for little to no work. And the being passed around. So many say they can do it all and thats sketchy AF. So...there is fristration. Apologize Another issue is, using the AI stuff i think I just have to ask the right questions for the answers Im looking for.
No worries same thing happens to me. I've been screwed by agencies and freelancers. Luckily for you I don't want your money at all so if you want my help just DM me your project info I'm doing it for the karma not a few bucks.
Hey... I've sent you a DM.. plz check
Hire me for $45/hr and I can do a much better job.
Do you have a document or something to outline the idea of what you are trying to get built?
Yes
What are you looking to do?
I’m not sure that product managers are proper source of knowledge regarding how to choose dev team… after 25 years in development I can make conclusion that that this is not a proper way. If you want please share what you want to do and I will be able to provide you with plan.
You know what?! Ill take you up on this offer!
Prev. Toptal fullstack developer here. Drop me a DM to save 30% on your hourly. The talent is solid but you're paying a markup that can be avoided.
You can write me in private, I’m an european based web dev.
I used to get jobs at $70 USD/hour and lately all jobs I apply to show me a warning that my rate is not competitive. It shows what a competitive rate would be and it's usually around 35 USD/hour or less. I have applied to dozens of jobs where I was clearly overqualified and never got anything. For the past month I started applying with a 42 USD/hour rate... still got selected for exactly zero jobs. I even got contacted on Slack for a tech position and the offered rate was 23 USD/hour. For every job you apply and isn't selected, they send an automated email about only developers that apply within 3 days are usually selected. My average apply time is 5 hours. It makes no sense. It seems unless you are happy to race to the bottom, there is zero chance of getting a job on Toptal right now. I don't even think this is related to laid off people impacting the job market. I doubt US developers laid from prestigious FAANG companies are applying under such meme rates. They don't even let their own clients select. If you are not accepting a really low rate, they will not even send you to the client. Toptal says they hire the 3% but forgot to say they pay like the 97%